18-methoxycoronaridine (18-MC)

[Opiyum]

This is some relatively old stuff that I was looking over again when I realized there isn't anything about this compound here at opiophile. I'll post of few excerpts from this article.

The rats in Stanley Glick's lab are junkies. They spend their days and nights lounging around in steel cages, twiddling their claws, waiting for the next hit. Each rat has a small plastic tube protruding from the base of its skull. Once a day, for an hour, each tube is connected to an infusion pump that controls a syringe containing a common addictive substance: morphine, cocaine, nicotine, or methamphetamine. The rats are trained to pull levers for water, but for one hour each day they can use the same system to mainline as much of the drugs as they want. And they want. "Just about any drug that humans abuse, animals will self-administer," Glick says. Glick gets the rats addicted only to get them back on the wagon later with a substance called 18-methoxycoronaridine (18-MC, for short). The new drug may be the miracle pill that addicts have always needed: A single dose of it can remarkably diminish both withdrawal symptoms and craving. By revealing its mechanism, Glick, director of the Center for Neuropharmacology and Neuroscience at Albany Medical College in New York, offers a new understanding of the brain's pleasure zones.
Eighteen-MC is a synthesized derivative of ibogaine, an extract of the bark of the root of the African iboga shrub

In 1991 Glick and his colleagues began to look for a synthetic derivative of ibogaine without the drug's side effects. The search eventually led to Martin Kuehne, a chemist at the University of Vermont who is an expert on the anticancer drug vincristine. Vincristine is structurally similar to ibogaine, and Kuehne knew how to tinker with the compound to produce derivatives. Glick tested 15 or so of the derivatives on rats before zeroing in on 18-MC.
"Withdrawal is related to the rapidity with which the drug disappears from the nervous system," Glick says. "It really reflects the change from the drug state to the nondrug state." To test 18-MC's effect on withdrawal, Glick gave the rats a continuous supply of morphine. He then administered an opiate antagonist that removes morphine from the neurons in the brain and causes immediate withdrawal symptoms. The rats given 18-MC suffered few if any withdrawal symptoms. Unlike people who take ibogaine, who may tremble as well as hallucinate, the animals seemed normal.
Hallucinogens like ibogaine raise serotonin levels in the brain; 18-MC doesn't. At the same time, 18-MC counteracts the increase in dopamine levels that opiates create. When Glick's addicted rats received 18-MC, their dopamine levels plummeted. The next time the rats were offered their daily hour of fun, they just said no. "Here's a drug that supposedly decreases craving, that supposedly decreases self-administration, and it also appears to block a key neurochemical correlate," Glick says. "But the real question is how exactly it is doing this. And this question plagued us for several years."
Activities in the brain occur at synapses, where neurons and receptors almost touch. Neurons fire off chemicals known as neurotransmitters (of which serotonin and dopamine are two), and neurotransmitters find their way to particular receptors. By using a technique that isolates receptors, called patch-clamp electrophysiology, Glick's colleague Mark Fleck discovered that 18-MC blocks only one kind of receptor effectively (ibogaine blocks several, which accounts for its many side effects). Receptors of this kind are clustered in two very specific parts of the brain, which are connected by a channel called the habenulo-interpeduncular pathway.


Despite the mounting evidence that 18-MC is a simple and clean way to end addiction, Glick, like Lotsof, has had trouble raising funds to test the drug on humans. The problem, he says, is guilt by association. In 1995 the National Institute on Drug Abuse hired a panel of nine academics and nine members of the pharmaceutical industry to review all the existing ibogaine research. After hearing presentations from Lotsof and others, 16 of the panel members reportedly voted to end trials of ibogaine in humans. Unfortunately, Glick says, 18-MC was tarred by the same brush. "I keep fighting the same battles over and over again," he says. "People lump 18-MC with ibogaine, and I'm constantly making the same point - that we've got something that is a hell of a lot better."
In the meantime, Glick gets about three calls a month from addicts and their families. "They're desperate for anything that will help," he says. "They've tried everything. They always want to know when can I give them 18-MC, and it's really hopeless. I'm just not in the position to do that yet."



Part of me thinks it's stupid to meddle with something that obviously already works. Why is a derivative necessary. The other side of me thinks that whatever helps get ibogaine or it's derivatives into the market is good and the more we learn about tolerance and withdrawal from these compounds the better.
And why do we have to do this shit to animals? Where's the dignity in that. Fuck I know a lot of humans that would line up for this trial. Shit they would pay for it.

[underide]

nice article, Opyum (i just wonder how they knew that the rats werent hallucinating ?)

From what i understand on this Ibogaine's sub/derivative in its' comparison to therapeutic practice with Ibogaine Versus 18-mc, is that 18-mc maybe slightly safer in terms of cardiotoxicity and apparently it's said to have less nauseusness associated with it
There was something else in favor of 18-mc that i forget, but i'm pretty sure 18mc is still a fairly potent hallucinogen at theraputic doses, just like Ibogaine

I think it's also a lot more expensive though and less studied than Ibogaine...but that might change, ofcourse, hopefully!!!

But don't quote me on any of the above, it's been a while since i read up on 18-mc

Still - Major Props to Glick for his and his colleagues' passionate and brave research with both Ibogaine and its' derivatives

[Maintenance Man]

Something that already works? I would (and I am probably not the only one) NEVER try ibogaine because of its horrible psychotomimetic effects, even if it would make me a happy millionaire who had never tried heroin and had no desire to. Lacking solid evidence that it works (even in the presence of incontravertible evidenced I would never use it for these reasons); plus the nature of the iboga extract that I believe is used contains many alkaloids - some maybe beneficial, some extraneous, and some harmful.

If it was possible, as in this doctor's research, to isolate the principle active compound, and modify it in such a manner that it caused no psychotomimetic effects, or cardiovascular adverse effects, and indeed interrupted addiction, I am sure I (and probably many more addicts) would be willing to give it a go.

Anything that causes psychotomimetic effects, there is going to be a sizable segment, if not majority, of the population who would never touch the shit unless it was legally mandated.

[underide]

Something that already works? I would (and I am probably not the only one) NEVER try ibogaine because of its horrible psychotomimetic effects, even if it would make me a happy millionaire who had never tried heroin and had no desire to. Lacking solid evidence that it works

M/M - i have read that thread you made about you being dosed on some powerful owsley, acid
Let me tell you that you are right to be pissed-off at the person who did this to you

But while that experience you had must have been overwhelming to say the least, and i don't think anyone in their right mind should dose people without their consent.
I can totally understand your reaction to that incident - one minute you ok and fully immersed in the 'normal' and defensive (not in a bad way) frame of mind and then the next you know you start losing it - the walls are breathing and melting - the floor loos oily wet and transparent and swirling around, pictures on the walls becoming 3d and alive and totally out of this world - all of that occuring without you knowing that it WAS a DRUG that was doing this to you
So yea, i can totally understand your frustration, and let me guess - you are type of guy who always likes to be on top of things (not saying it's a bad thing necessarily)
That's understandable
It was an awful thing to do to you, no doubt about it, but just because of that bad experince, i don't think you should be writing off all psychedellics as 'evil'
If they don't suit you, that is also fine and understandable, but i really don't think there are any 'evil' drugs out there.

What i would say though is that Acid and Ibogaine, etc are just inanimate objects, or even tools if you like, and not some "evil force" that is always out to get you - its just the way it works
It is what you intend to do with those tools and how you actually use them that matters.

And when you say that LSD is evil - i couldn't agree less
If used properly LSD can open up a whole other path to reality that is always ther in the first place but just being obscured by our 'normal' brain procecces. And if you use LSD properly( provided you do not have a serious mental illness or that you're not someone who always wants or even feels like he/she NEEDS to be in control), acid can actually propvide you with some incredible experience
People are evil, thou mostly it's just people being confused

On the matter of Ibogaine - when you say it's "unproven" - i strongly disagree
Ibogaine has been tested on animals and humans, and it helped countless humans beat years of addiction in literrally a 48hour period of time, which has been done time and time again, BTW
What it certanly seems to do -is detoxyfy s/one rapidly and relatively painlessly, especcially when compared to some other certain methods - like that frickin "Waismann Method" - where they precipitate a violent withdrawal and there you go -"good as new!" (yeah, right)"oh, and where is that check for 15,000 dollars?" - yep - that is how much the waisman method costs (i know since a few years ago my dad bought their bullshit story and was offering to take me to their "rehab facility"...No thanks!!
Sorry i digress

I've said it before and i'll say it again - Ibogaine (and possibly 18-mc) has real potention of becoming a more widely used method of addiction cessation....
The reason that it is still not being developed by any major pharmaceutical companies is because they just feel that there is too mush risk involved in manufacturing something like Ibogaine + the fact that one or more complanies even outrigh claimed that ther simply isnt enough money to be made producing and distributing Ibogaine and the smaller phamaceutical companies are even more afraid of something they still have trouble understanding - so the money issue/risk-factor is even greater there
Oh and the Simple fact that in your country Ibogaine is actually a Sced I, along with Heroin, coke, meth, etc., sure doesn't help matters either

I still stand by my beleif in it, and even if some here might think i'm just guillible, well we'll see
I'm yet to go through the therapy myself and i do believe that at the very least it will detoxify me very quick, and who knows, maybe i'll even end up being part of the group of people that after taking a "Therapeutic Ibogaine dose" that i would end up like those who had really come out of it clean and with no intension of using and are still clean after literally years off their DOC.
But even just the detox itself would satisfy me - no need for a looong painful taper - just 3-4 days without my dose, the some 40 hours of frying - i think i can handle that
Well i hope so anyway

[Maintenance Man]

EDIT: In my country, Heroin is a Schedule I drug. It shouldn't be, IMO. Methamphetamine and cocaine are Schedule II, meaning they have a legitimate medical use. Iboga, as a psychotomimetic, is rightfully placed in Schedule I alongside every other psychotomimetic substance, like LSD, DMT, 4-HO-DMT (psilocin), PCP, etc.. In my opinion, no psychotomimetic drug has a medical use, and the medical community, by and large, agrees with me - the notion was discredited by 1970, with a brief revival of the use of the novel psychotomimetic/stimulant phenethylamine MDMA in therapy, especially couples' therapy, in the 1980s.

__________________________________________________ _________________________________

It IS unproven that ibogaine assists in continued sobriety, and relatively unproved it even aids in maintaining sobriety beyond the duration of the trip and stay at clinic - sometimes not even that long. Much anecdotal evidence agrees with me, and animal models are not good models of the emotional mode of human addiction - maybe the chemical mode, yes. Clinics themselves advertise, "repeat sessions over the next 24 months may be necessary to keep the client clean" - one Ibogaine clinic in Mexico with a web presence I read about when researching the matter. I'm not bothered to reference it.

I'm a person who must be in control at all times - I can not let go, not even enough to enjoy sex - and diagnosed with, and likely in possession of several severe mental illnesses. This means that psychotomimetics are a guaranteed train ride through hell for me.

I never mentioned "evil" except in my signature, which is not meant to be an argument in and of itself, but more a statement or a parody, etc. I called the effects, "horrible psychotomimetic," which, to me, they are. The next poster could come along and say, "glorious psychedelic," would you have an issue with that?

I believe a drug itself can have tendencies towards "good" or "evil" - acid may be a complete neutral of all psychotomimetics, though. Salvia has a tendency towards dysphoria, and Cannabis a tendency to euphoria. All cause extremely bad reactions in me, nonetheless. But I do believe that psychotomimetics as a class have more of a tendecy towards "bad" or "evil" than any other class of drugs, and opiates have the greatest tendency towards "good" (I'm talking here about the feeling evoked in the user). Many people who take acid will have a bad trip - that's why there is a term for it - where not one person using heroin will have a "bad high."

Of course, the chemical cannot be evil in and of itself, it requires a human to complete the circle. My point being: that, no human, no matter how ill-adjusted or mentally ill, can complete the circle of evil feelings or freakout on heroin, and nearly all of those type of people will on LSD; along with many "normal" people.

So, drugs, in concert with their users, certainly can have a predisposition to evoking certain feelings and doing certain things. Some drugs do not have the capability of inducing evil; some drugs may, or may not, and some drugs almost always will.

Now, if we take into account effects on systems larger than the user, stimulants and opioids may cause the most obvious "social evil" - but it is this kind of thinking, along with racism, that lead to the illegalization of vast swaths of drugs. What is often overlooked is the insidious differentiation and change, often to the delusional, of thought process and psyche, that takes place in a vast amount of daily cannabis smokers or frequent (weekly) users of stronger psychotomimetics.

In the long run, I believe that opioids (the chemicals themselves, notwithstanding prohibition, cf. CPP) cause the least harm to the individual, and stimulants and psychotomimetics, including cannabis, the most. Opioids and stimulants the most to society at large, psychotomimetics, the least.

The negative effects of opioids are inextricably linked to prohibition.

Stimulants are toxic both to the physical body and the psyche in long-term heavy use. This toxicity is a function of the drug itself, not of its legal status.

The psychological changes and damage that often affect the long-term heavy users of psychotomimetics, including cannabis, are a function of the drugs themselves - not the prohibition of said substances.

[Opiyum]

Why do you feel the need to lecture people so often? I didn't ask and I don't care what you think.

Oh and your lectures are so full of bullshit. I've stopped reading them but I assume that hasn't changed.

Stop doing that shit. For the sake of everyone.

[Papa Verine]

Why do you feel the need to lecture people so often? I didn't ask and I don't care what you think.

Oh and your lectures are so full of bullshit. I've stopped reading them but I assume that hasn't changed.

Stop do that shit. For the sake of everyone.

I'll second that!!! His ignorant bullshit is annoying the fuck out of me. Thanks for posting this thread Opiyum, it's extremely interesting, and it gives me hope that some day we all might have another option for dealing with opiate addiction. I'm sorry MM had to foul it up with more of his attacks on Cannabis and hallucinogens.

[Maintenance Man]

You're as biased as me.

If I had spoken of the drug's glorious psychedelic effects, would you still have taken me to task for it? If I speak of the relaxing, medicinal properties of the magical cannabis plant, would you still have a problem?

I sense not. If my lectures agreed with your viewpoint, you'd be applauding.

[Papa Verine]

Dude... I wouldn't mind so much if you weren't clogging up every unrelated thread you can find with your nonsense. If somebody started a thread about the glorious health benefits of Cannabis and you wanted to make your points that would be fine. I could agree to disagree. But I'm really sick of reading it everywhere I look on the site. What does this thread have to do with Cannabis... really?

[Maintenance Man]

This post is about an analogue of a psychotomimetic drug. Cannabis is a psychotomimetic drug; if you read the post, cannabis doesn't play that big of a part on its own. It's about the class of drugs, and ibogaine, in general.

Just because you are overcome with wave after wave of warm fuzzy euphoria for this particular class of drugs, doesn't mean everyone else is. If I came in here and ranted in unrelated threads all day long about how mind-opening and life-changing psychotomimetics were, I don't think you'd have a problem and you'd pack my bullshit in with a shovel - because a few members here obviously pack in the bullshit when it comes to psychotomimetics, (selective listening/memory anyone?) quoting and remembering only the good and none of the bad. And using references by possibly the most burned-out, least scientific scientist of all time: Shulgin. The man had his license revoked for a reason. And it's not because he was tuning in, turning on, and dropping out Joe Publics world over.

Sorry for hijacking another thread. Back to the topic at hand, children. Time to take a trip while sitting in your living room! Joyous! Glorious! Indescribably Fantastical! But.. back to the topic at hand.

[Opiyum]

Personally I hate cannibus. Everything about it and its effects.
Having been an opiate addict for ten years now I know first hand the intensity of the grief and despair it can cause and therefore I know how good it can feel when hope is presented in any manor.
Fuck yes I'm gonna get angry when someone tries to shit all over that.

I most certainly don't ignore the bad side of psychedelics. I could have easily chose not to post my last DMT account in my recovery thread but that wouldn't be giving the whole story. The psychotomimetic effects are very real and one should always treat these substances with great care and respect.
It's painfully obvious that you are projecting on everyone else your own experiences and ideals. Were you simply stating your experience and doubts no one would have any problem but you are turning these things into weapons and you have an obvious agenda.

Also I don't mind that you disagree. Your motives are yours and not mine to judge. It's the means I question.

[StackBundles]

I don't feel like working my thumbs out so I'm just gonna' neglect a majority of the shit I had to say... Except, MM, dude, you flip-flop on shit more than anyone I have seen. I can't post links since I'm on a cell...

Also, your, long winded, preachy, didactic posts are becoming extremely tiresome and boorish. If I wanted a lecture I woulda' signed back up for classes this fall. No one hear wants to hear that shit, no offense. You don't hold the key to the mystery of life, so stop acting like it. From what I gathered in your posts, you are content sitting around drooling on yourself collecting SSI. I am not trying to attack you, but get your fucking shit together before you try to tie up everyone else's loose ends.

And, I have witnessed people have "bad" heroin highs, not the same sort that would be encountered by ingesting certain psychedelic substances, but unpleasant and having negative psychological consequences non-the-less.

No one here is impressed with large vocabularies, average booksmarts, or the ability to type out semi-informative posts. Didn't DF tell you that insta-fame cannot easily, if ever be acchieved here? And believe me, there are some members of this board that would snack on your grey matter for an appetizer. All of your post seem to be self aggrandizing, mental mastabatory, bullshit, even though you may have some good thoughtful information contained in them, they smack of a self serving agenda.

As Opiyum said, I am sorry that you are having a tough time and are so conflicted... We just don't want to be the target of your rage.

[jacky]

there is anecdotal evidence that iboga can be used in lower dosages for addiction purposes.

also, its known that ibogaine potentiates morphine at about a 50% consideration....

small amounts of ibogaine can be used as aphrodisiac, stimulant, neurodegenerative treatments, the drug/plant extracts were consumed for around a century in the lower dosage range, and I see no reason why careful, informed research couldnt proceed for individuals living in the right country.

my goal...to go to mexico and meet a pound of iboga rootbark purchased at wholesale prices. near the water, and near a hospital.
take iboga in low doses while weening one of the opiate of choice...over a few weeks time.

this 18 methoxycoronaridine compound is similiar to some compounds that are found in certian species of taberneamontana.....
and most recently, tabernaemontana undulata is discovered in south america to be used for hunting and psychoactive purposes. containing the major alkaloid ibogaine, this plant might hold potential just as iboga, perhaps may have an even more desirable alkaloid profile....who knows. at least that plant, if it does become commercially avialable as some rumors suggest, its legal to import/export all over the world. there will be a window of opportunity of researching that particular species for at least a few years if not a decade.

I would try 18 methoxy in a heartbeat....but would rather just research iboga first.

the plant has vast potential...but only for certian people...18 methoxy c. has probably more potential for a greater percentage of the population because of reduced toxicity and purportedly reduced psychoactivity (although I have heard that 18 methoxy might also be more psychoactive than its proponents let on)...
but what are we missing with 18 methoxy? if a psychedelic ride is important to a person, they will most likely take iboga instead, but what about the people that need that suprise, and that psychoactive experience to enhance their experience?

I think going under even a large dose of ibogaine/iboga is probably as risky as going under surgery with anasthetic, or exposing oneself to possible pathogens that are concentrated at hospitals under some conditions.
that is why I would rather take my own chances.

there is even an old anecdotal account of someone in europe years ago that used trachelospermum jasminoides, a climbing vine used in chinese herbal therapy that contains ibogaine in small amounts. they had a small website up detailing the rather beat feeling writing about the experience...but I have not been able to find that website for at least a few years now.
if even trace amounts might help some people ween down, in a plant that is essentially already approved as a dietary supplement in the USA, maybe some more people will take that as a research option. I have consumed the trache. jasm. species, just testing for initial toxicity at reccomended dosages and noticed little effect....but I was just testing really for allergic/toxic reactions at normal dosages.

ibogaines close structural similiarity to beta carbolines, and some research that some beta carbolines might have an anti addictive effect would be a good research lead possibly for the synthetic chemist to work out analogs on maybe as well.

[hovadagod]

People who don't appreciate psychomimetics or whatever "maintenance man???":rolleyes: calls them hasn't tried them or has so much repressed bagage that they (the psychomimetics that is) are too overwhelming for the body to handle.

As for ibogaine, I think it is dangerous for certain people to try it. I think it can kill you if you are some kind of scum-bag. I'm sure it can be reduced to science (bad heart or whatever) but I like to think that the ibogaine can decide to kill you:D Maybe I just like to believe that the few people who have died from ibogaine weren't worthy of the drug to begin with.

IMO ibogaine could be the best shot at sobriety for the vast majority of addicts. I want it.

[underide]

what a warped view of reality, hovagood
"ibogaine is going to kill you" because IT doesn't like you?

well i guess i better start "bettering" myself then , eh? :D

tell me this though:
do you think YOU are "worthy" of ibogaine?

[underide]

I guess you're still undecided then, huh, hovagood?


Sorry if i came across like a dick, but to be honest at first glance i actually thought you were joking
now i'm thinking it is just one of your beliefs, and having personal beliefs, no matter how different and strange they may appear to another person, we certainly should be entitled to believe whatever we desire
and beliefs do change - nothing constant

In some ways you're probably right - one definitely needs to have a certain measure of respect for that substance and any other drug for that matter
Or we'd all be dropping like fly's anyway, still thinking it's all just some innocent child's games

[hovadagod]

I am undecided about ibogaine. And I don't really know if I'm worthy of it but I tend to think that most people are (good). I don't know if I really believe the stuff about ibogaine choosing to kill people but I know that the people who have trouble with hallucenogens are the one's that are the least in touch with reality. Like the people who can honestly tell themselves that humans are the only life in the universe and believe it are the same types that would freak out if they tripped.

The real question I guess is whether there is more to a trip than altering your brain chemistry for a few hours.

I really believe that some of those drugs could give us access to other dimensions and the real truth or maybe even death or re-birth. May sound crazy.

[hovadagod]

Has anyone here ever done the ibogaine? I can't think of anyone......