opiates addiction & depression

[Maynard]

Hey all,
I know you have been inundated with new members. I am not going to ask where I can score online or who this character named SWIM whose heroic adventures I read about often so I will be brief on introductions and get right into it.
My question/rant is about opiates addiction depression etc. I don’t have a large habit, I get 60, 5mg percs a month for quasi legitimate pain issues. That being said, I do not take them legitimately or correctly. I slurp them down in about 4-5 glorious days and can’t wait for the next refill and have been doing this for years. I think this has taken a toll on my mind. Recently I have found Kratom which I love but it’s the same fucked up cycle but I think worse because it is so easily accessible. The come down off of days of steady Kratom use really leaves you in a physical/psychological hole, same as opiates. The stuff is amazing though. I suspect if you don’t have an enormous opiate tolerance and or are not in a situation where you are taking it to fight opiate withdrawls it feels great and lasts >6hrs per pop. Anyone agree with me?
I can see how many of the seasoned veterans on the site view my situation as less than a big deal and that I don’t know what true pain is to quote buffalo bill from silence of the lambs.
I will tell you this I know how fucking beautiful being on opiates feels and how depressed I feel when they are not in my life or have no prospects of obtaining them(you all know). Back in the day I didn’t really get depressed when off of them but that has changed. What was once aggravation has been replaced by extended dark feelings, sadness and depression. Anyone here have successes with antidepressants s to break free from the opiate hold? I just want my mind to be in a place where I have a fighting chance to break free this cycle ? I suspect many of us have similar brain wiring which is why I ask. Its amazing how the effects of prolonged opiate use gradually creep up on you (tolerance, addiction, depression etc).
Thanks so much I really needed to get this out ..
Maynard(big tool fan)

[wisegal]

oooooh, NICE username!

If i ever get locked up i want maynard to be my cell-mate (Prison SEX)

welcome to the club :)

[Ickyuck]

oooooh, NICE username!

If i ever get locked up i want maynard to be my cell-mate (Prison SEX)

welcome to the club :)

You dirty, dirty bird, wisgal ;)

IF I were locked up, I'd take JOSH HOMME as my cell mate. Whoops, I dropped my soap...

Anyway sorry to hijack the thread, may. I am severely clinically depressed and take several anti-depressants. The thing with opiates it that it completely dissolves my symptoms, so I know how you feel...

[Poppylvr]

Hey all
[SIZE=3][FONT=Calibri]I will tell you this I know how fucking beautiful being on opiates feels and how depressed I feel when they are not in my life or have no prospects of obtaining them(you all know). Back in the day I didn’t really get depressed when off of them but that has changed. What was once aggravation has been replaced by extended dark feelings, sadness and depression. Anyone here have successes with antidepressants s to break free from the opiate hold? I just want my mind to be in a place where I have a fighting chance to break free this cycle ? I suspect many of us have similar brain wiring which is why I ask. Its amazing how the effects of prolonged opiate use gradually creep up on you (tolerance, addiction, depression etc).
Thanks so much I really needed to get this out ..
Maynard(big tool fan)
Maynard dear, welcome to Opiophile.
The bad news is that antidepressants, while excellent for treating clinical depression, don't do too much for the depression related to lack of opiates in our system. The only thing that fixes that is more opiates.
Medicine is learning more and more about the amazing complexity of the neurotransmitter systems and the interactions between all the brain chemicals and how we feel. There is so much more known now than when I was a brand new nursie 33 years ago.
You could possibly get a doc to give you an antidepressant for your "depression" - but don't expect it to cure the depression that comes from lack of opiates.

[LongKissGoodNite]

I disagree!!! I've been taking wellbutrin and it definitely helps the anxiety and early onset w/d symptoms .. you kinda easier to ignore them .. But im taking off label for depression and also right now now .. im taking vyvanse and if you dont know just look at the website its speed for sure goddamn i am so glued to this site right now i dont even want to get up .. i mean i think its been 10 mins and i look down and its only been 60 seconds jesus! I think I found my ADD cure .. or problemomo ..

[No_Sequel]

"You could possibly get a doc to give you an antidepressant for your "depression" - but don't expect it to cure the depression that comes from lack of opiates."

PoppyLvr: The thought of this scares the crap out of me...I was 1st prescribed Effexor XR 6 years ago and it worked wonders for 3 years. At that point my insurance lapsed and I began to self-medicate to deal w/ my depression and anxiety. Approximately one year ago I was again placed on Effexor XR, but it doesn't seem to have any effect on me now. I can handle the physical withdrawals, but what seems to be the most difficult aspect for me is the intense anxiety, horrible depression, and an inability to eat & sleep.

I have quit for 10 days or so, but what always gets me back on the wagon are those damn symptoms. I recently relocated from Seattle to Portland and shortly thereafter replaced my methadone addiction w/ heroin due to my inability to locate any pharmaceuticals after the move. I can't afford the $200/day habit any longer and I really need to quit. I have 10 suboxone to help me w/ this lofty goal. Being that I am comfortable w/ my ability to handle the physical symptoms of withdrawal, at what point in the process can I expect relief from the mental/emotional effects?

[DarthStoner]

While I agree that antidepressants don't work well for alieviating the mental pain of withdrawals, since Maynard isn't an addict, at least in a physical sense, they may be quite helpful in relieving some of the irritation, angst, and saddness associated with the no-opiate blues.

Of course they will not cure these feelings completely. But just as taking xanax can help reduce the irritibilty and short-temperedness associated with being really high, I imagine that they may similarly help take a bit of the edge off the longing for opiates.

Obviously, if you want a fighting chance to break away from opiates altogether, willpower and determination will be your greatest assets. Antidepressants may help to a degree, but there is no silver bullet to slay this beast except for your own tenacity to succeed.

Furthermore it should at least be mentioned that you risk opening up a whole new can of worms using this route... possibly replacing one psychological dependency with another - and this monster might be even bigger and uglier than the one you currently have.

Unfortunately, I think it's clear that these escalating feelings of unhappiness are directly related to your ever-increasing enjoyment of these meds... yes, I know this is pretty obvious, but it also shows a direct correlation to the dangers of using antidepressants to help "cure" this problem - you may start to like them too much too... or learn that the opiate/antidepressant combo is even better than when either is used alone.

As for getting off of opiates, many (includig myself) would just about kill to have such relatively mild symptoms. Personally I think your best bet is to just tough it out for a little while, they will subside before too long. Of course, this is easy to say, and much, much more difficult to actually do. I just hope you don't needlessly create a new problem by trying to quick fix your current one.

People rarely die from opiate wds, antidepressants (benzos), on the other hand, are known to induce seizures and can even be fatal when wding. Good luck, and be careful.

[Restharrow]

oooooh, NICE username!

If i ever get locked up i want maynard to be my cell-mate (Prison SEX)

welcome to the club :)
Wisegal, If I was single, I would change my name for you. (But try and skip the prison part).

Welcome Maynard.

My first realization that opiates had quite a hold on me, was how depressed I was on the days when I was not using and how happy I was on the days I was using.

Will

[ohamber]

You dirty, dirty bird, wisgal ;)

IF I were locked up, I'd take JOSH HOMME as my cell mate. Whoops, I dropped my soap...

Anyway sorry to hijack the thread, may. I am severely clinically depressed and take several anti-depressants. The thing with opiates it that it completely dissolves my symptoms, so I know how you feel...

i agree 100% about josh homme. oh. my. god.

[doctor diesel]

i agree 100% about josh homme. oh. my. god.

Never mind Josh Homme, I want to share my prison cell with Hilary Swank.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm :p

Doc

[The Paregoric Man]

On the practical side have you investigated dried opium poppy pods? They are sold openly in the US and are cheap, the half life is the longest of any opiate besides methadone or buprenorphine.

By grinding the pods to a fine powder you could consume this and use to maintain and stretch your script, you can easily get by with one dose every 12-24 hours with no WD or emotional rollercoaster.
It will keep you level and well better than kratom if you can control your use.

[at&t]

hm... we have some ahem.. interesting replies to this thread.

Paregoric Man's post might be a decent idea...
(His story is very interesting in that he has *somehow* managed to be a functional daily-user ("addict") of Very Low Doses. (Unlike most of the rest of us.) He has an interesting perspective, and often quite good posts/ interesting things to say...)

I assume from your introduction that you have previously read some posts this site-- at least for a while, before joining... (unlike so many of the other new folks the board has been "inundated with" recently.) Therefore, you are probably aware that many of us are steadfast die-hard proponents of a Medical Condition called EDS-- "Erectile Disfunction--" no... wrong one.. I mean "Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome."

The reasoning behind which is: "I feel Happy on opiates. But I feel Sad without opiates. Therefore I must have a disease!"


Anyway, to get back to your Post and your Question: I don't know.... I'm sorry to say that I can't give you an answer that you would like...
I think that most folks would agree that using Constant Opiate Addiction (scratch that. lets call it "Constant Opiate Therapy.") is a TERRIBLE way to treat depression.

It *causes* Its Own NEW depression... (but only whenever you run out of junk (I mean "Medication."))
It hands you back your Original Depression with Interest. Unbelievably severe One-Hundred-Thousand Percent-point interest. (payment on which is due in full the moment your most recent dose starts to wear off.)

I'll tell you a secret though.. I'm anonymous here... I don't know why, but I haven't ever told anyone... It shouldn't necessarily be that embarrassing, shameful, or even all that important. But... a long time ago, I found myself feeling kind of the same way you seem to feel today, and actually made a conscious decision to "self medicate" my "Depression" (or 'EDS' if you prefer (though we hadn't yet thought up that term at that point...)) with the old "C.O.T. (aka 'becoming a junky ON freaking PURPOSE') Program"...

Anyway, I think that part of the reason why kept the (irrelevant though it may be) "secret" is just... shame for actually *Intentionally* Deliberately doing something so stupid.....

So........ #1. best of luck with whatever you do man.... It might be advisable to think Very hard before going from taking pills for one week each month, to being a 24/7 "I need junk or I will die" user.

#2. I found it interesting to read what you had to say about Kratom... I'm glad that that stuff is working for you... who knows... if that stuff Really Does manage to chase away some/most of your "Natural 'depression,'" and/or some/most of your "Out-of-pills depression," then.... What the hell... Order a big stack of it, and see how long it is able to maintains its usefulness...

#3. I've never tried it, but folks here seem to have Only Good thing to say about Pods... Folks with small habits, AND, surprisingly, somehow also folks with larger habits! (which is strange-- A fistful of pods can really only contain so much morphine, and it is by no means a large amount.. BUT,)-- I guess that there is just something about those things. <shrugs> Folks on here seem to have only good things to say about them...

#4. ok..... Opioid-induced-depression... First off-- No.... Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that everyone agrees that Normal Antidepressants are pretty useless for Opioid-related-depression. Two completely different things. Sadly.
Heck... that would be great. Run out of junk? Better take a Prosac... Still suffering from deadly PAWS (another controversial Medical-- ("Pseudo-medical," many would have it) Condition often discussed here) a year after kicking? Have a bit of prosac (or whatever) prn, and everything will be better...

#5. and finally, the last (and perhaps most important) thing I want to mention is just that... Well, To be as brief as possible: It will only get progressively worse..
Now *here* is a topic where I could write just... pages and pages, but, I'll try to be brief. Unfortunately the Nature of this particular beast is such that the "depression/bad feelings"-- (the Depression and Bad Feelings which, ironically, the Junk itself has created) Only Gets Worse with each Week, Month, Year, Decade that goes by.

Anyway..... I don't know... welcome to the board man........ Sorry for a long somewhat pointless post, but.... Its just that-- I'm not sure that there IS a good way to answer the questions that you raised in your post-- Much less a short/concise way to answer it.

Take care all, at&t

EDIT: ps. Yes... Personally I *do* believe in 'EDS.' It's just the most recent name for something that certainly seems (to me, at least) to exist..... But... well, nevermind.... Just adding this for the aforementioned "so-called 'diehard EDS proponents,'" just in case they might feel that my description of the "syndrome" was overly harsh....

EDIT AGAIN: Also, maynard... just a very quick fyi.... Folks here often tend to want a Bit more paragraph breaks. I see that your post has a few different paragraphs, but people tend to ask for a Blank Line between paragraphs. It *really* doesn't matter at all, but... <shrugs>

Not that I should be talking!!!! People ALSO tend to not want to have to read posts that are 10,000 pages long like this one is! I'm sorry... I just.. sort of found it to be something of a compelling topic... <shrugs again> :(
My bad.. Sorry folks. Best of luck Maynard... at&t

[Maynard]

Thanks so much everyone for your replies. I should say that I do have a family history of depression but have never felt truly depressed myself until somewhat recently. Perhaps my brain although without a clear pathology is at the very least vulnerable and opiate use has pushed me over the edge more easily than one without a predisposition? But really who the fuck knows, the math on this one is not so clear cut. It would be interesting to know if those of you who have been diagnosed or treated for depression can pick apart your experiences. Are there differences in the way your symptoms of depression have felt with or without the presence of opiates in your life/system and how effective treatment has been? Is it possible to distinguish opiate depression from standard dep if the two are even distinct? I guess I am just looking for people to share adjectives that could at least help to untangle this colossal mind fuck. The last thing you would want to do is add another drug(anti dep) into your system that really isn’t warranted and could create an even larger monster of a problem. I have read that people who have gotten clean can experience months of low energy, boredom, loss of ambition/ drive ect., (secondary withdrawal symptoms). And of course the hardest part of this whole situation is that all of this pain and confusion can go away in an instant with our DOC. This is an interesting source that discusses some of these issues http://www.heroinhelper.com/sick/after_detox.shtml (http://www.heroinhelper.com/sick/after_detox.shtml)
Thanks again everyone for your help
Maynard

[Leave it ta Beaver]

For me most ant-depressnt's never seemed ta help at all, but as metioned above if your depressed cuz your outta meds. then 'da only real help would be to score some more!

Most of us user's probally self medicated are selve's cuz of some sortta depression and find out later down the long road of abuse it only made/makes are depression worse,( my doc wants me on paxil for depression )(he's a suboxone doc.) & I've heard alotta bad stuff about 'em!

I'm addictted to benzos. mainly xanax & or klonopin's & in large doses & have been told/heard if ya ever wanna stop paxil there is withdrawl's involved! So why replace my benzo. addiction w/ another I asked him, w/ no real reply. In my opimion he or some other doc. should just script me a low dose of klonopin's & I'd be alot more happy:)

But drug addiction & depression go hand and hand, everyone's differ'nt so ya could give 'em a try!

[jo-jo]

My first realization that opiates had quite a hold on me, was how depressed I was on the days when I was not using and how happy I was on the days I was using.
l


This is me too. My stupid EX-doctor said that depression was not a symptom of narcotics w/d when I went to him crying my eyes out during w/d's. Dumbass! Glad I have a new dr now.

To the OP...I'm on 60mg of Cymbalta and 40mg of Celexa a day and while it helps a bit (especially w/my anxiety) I still have depression when I'm not on my opiates.

[HistoryofMadness]

my favorite response from doctors is something like "of course you have some endorphin problems, you created them from all the opiates you've used"

chicken or egg, my friend... chicken or egg?

i honestly believe having "euphoria" as a side-effect of opiates is laughable coming from the same community that can solve most acute problems within minutes but you have to wait 6+ weeks for some relief from major depression...

the whole time, at their fingertips, are drugs that have the oh so unfortunate side effect of 'euphoria'

i mean, really, what is the opposite of depression? happiness!

fuck me. anyway. fuck it. fuck happy.

[jo-jo]

i honestly believe having "euphoria" as a side-effect of opiates is laughable coming from the same community that can solve most acute problems within minutes but you have to wait 6+ weeks for some relief from major depression...

the whole time, at their fingertips, are drugs that have the oh so unfortunate side effect of 'euphoria'


Exactly! A few months ago (I was off of all opiates) I was crying every day, no motivation, feeling just this side of suicidal. Went to my psychiatrist and he just upped the dose of my current anti-depressant, saying that it may take a few weeks to help.

I asked if there was possibly something that could help quicker and he said, "yes, but those kind of drugs are illegal" Like I was asking him for heroin or something. :rolleyes: I think that even just a low dose of vicodin or something similar daily would have helped immensely at that time.

[HandMeSomeOpiates]

Maynard,
Have you tried quitting all opiates for a week or more? If so did the depression get better or worse??
Maybe after the opiates get out of your system you'll start feeling better and the depression may fade away the longer you stay opiate free. Just a guess. I hear ya on the depression while D/Ting, the symptom I hate the most about D/Ting.... Sending good things your way brotha

HMSO