Dihydroetorphine Detox/Maintenance

[Paregoric Kid]

I've heard that dihydroetorphine is widely used medically in China. it is taken sublingually, injected, and transdermally. wikipedia says in China dihydroetorphine is given to addicts as a substitute maintenance drug, similar to how methadone and buprenorphine are used in maintenance programs.
I guess it began use in medicine in China around 1986. I found a paper that said in the late 80s/early 90s they started using it to detox addicts in China. so do they still use this over there? is there really dihydroetorphine maintenance available? seems like a big improvement for addicts over there, in China they used to just shoot them in the head.

[Duckfeet]

I read about that, somewhere, another site I think...maybe heroin-detox.com...but I'm not sure...but it was also someone who had found an online source for it, somehow...and of course, he getting slammed by the purists, since "he wasn't really clean" or some crap like that...but yeah, fuck, seems like every since World War II and the communist takeover, it's been pretty repressive over there, when it comes to opiates...used to be, a boy made it to around 40, he could kick back with an opium pipe...but they got kind of "spartan" I guess is the word, and pretty much whiped out all the deviates...it seems as tho, along with all the other western culture they've been absorbing lately, they've also got a good dose of dopefiends too...hahaha....
I don't know anything else but that, that somebody was using it to detox, or "maintenance" or something...interesting tho...but still, just begs the same question that is "begged" here: why not just legalize the fucking shit, and let survival of the fittest rule...China never was squeamish about *that* kind of shit:

Cordon off about half of Shanghai, bus, fly in opiate addicts from all over....give everybody all the opium/heroin they want, and give'em about 20 years...thro in a keg of beer a day and some tacos...would be a good experiment...hell, we'd probably thrive....:)


I've heard that dihydroetorphine is widely used medically in China. it is taken sublingually, injected, and transdermally. wikipedia says in China dihydroetorphine is given to addicts as a substitute maintenance drug, similar to how methadone and buprenorphine are used in maintenance programs.
I guess it began use in medicine in China around 1986. I found a paper that said in the late 80s/early 90s they started using it to detox addicts in China. so do they still use this over there? is there really dihydroetorphine maintenance available? seems like a big improvement for addicts over there, in China they used to just shoot them in the head.

[Paregoric Kid]

I wouldn't doubt the patients who get on these dihydroetorphine detox/maintenance programs are people who are or were important in some way to the Chinese government. but who knows maybe it is available to anyone in urban areas over there.

[candy]

I had never even heard of it before and it has my interest peaked. I think I will read a bit more about it.

[nhop]

Wow,an etorphine derivative! Thats some potent stuff. On a side note, I'm wondering if this stuff is available over the counter or by script (as opposed to the klinic model) as bupe is in most of the west. I beleive we have an opiophile who lives in China, maybe we can get him to check this out?

[Paregoric Kid]

its definitely not over the counter.
seems like it is only available to a lucky, privileged few.
here is a quote from a paper titled, "Social Vulnerability of Injection Drug Users to HIV/AIDS in China: Determinants and Responses," it appeared in 2003 in the Yale-China Health Journal:

Availability of Drug Treatment
Chinese drug regulations have significantly impeded health professionals’ efforts
in China to implement internationally-proven harm reduction best practices,
especially needle exchange and methadone maintenance programs (Yap, Wu, Liu,
Ming, & Liang). Harm reduction strategies among idu s [Injection Drug Users] in China have not
been implemented nationally because provision of needles and syringes and
methadone maintenance to drug users has been interpreted by Chinese law as
“assisting drug users and promoting prohibited drugs and drug use”(Yap et al.,
). Given these barriers, harm reduction programs among drug users are only
available through a few pilot projects reaching a small fraction of those who need
these services.I know it doesn't name dihydroetorphine specifically, but you get the point.
another interesting thing I got out of a study from China was that they, at least at one time, experimented with sufentanil for detox and maintenance.

[Indy]

I just want to say that the only danger in a drug that's incredibly potent and microgram levels, is measuring it. Once it's been measured out it's no more dangerous than a drug that's potent at gram levels. That is of course once an equivalent dose has been established.

[Paregoric Kid]

I agree super potent opioids can be used safely. if they come highly diluted in pill/liquid/patch formulation. it is hard to accidentally ingest grams of material but with stuff like etorphines and fentanyls if they are in a highly concentrated form accidental ingestion, either inhaled, transdermal, etc. is much more likely because they are active in the microgram range. carfentanil is lethal at doses smaller than the lethal dose for VX nerve gas. also, in the case of accidental ingestion, good luck being resuscitated. the hospital/doctor might know enough to administer naloxone/naltrexone but do you think he is going to give you the heroic doses required to reverse things like etorphines and fentanyls?

interestingly dihydroetorphine has been show to act as an mu agonist but can act as a reversible mu antagonist in a very strange way, check this out
To test the hypothesis that dihydroetorphine has opioid antagonist properties, we examined the effects of dihydroetorphine on the antinociceptive effect of morphine. The antinociceptive response was evaluated by recording the latency in the tail-flick test using radiant heat as a stimulus. The antinociceptive effect of dihydroetorphine reached its peak 30 min after administration, and remained significant up to 90 min after administration. On the other hand, when dihydroetorphine was injected i.c.v., the antinociceptive effect of dihydroetorphine reached its peak 15 min after administration, and a significant antinociceptive effect disappeared within 90 min after administration. When morphine was administered 30 min after dihydroetorphine, the antinociceptive effect of morphine was significantly enhanced. In contrast, the antinociceptive effect of morphine was significantly reduced when morphine was administered 120 min after either i.p. or i.c.v. administration of dihydroetorphine. This antagonistic effect remained significant up to 6 h after administration of dihydroetorphine, and then gradually decreased. However, dihydroetorphine had no significant effect on the antinociceptive effect of either trans-(+/-)-3,4-dichloro-N-methyl-N-(2(1-pyrrolidinyl) cyclohexyl)-benzeneacetamide (U-50, 488H), a kappa-opioid receptor agonist, or [D-Pen2.5]enkephalin (DPDPE), a delta-opioid receptor agonist. These results suggest that dihydroetorphine may have a reversible antagonist effect for mu-opioid receptors, but not for kappa- or delta-opioid receptors, when its agonistic activity disappears.

[jacky]

I think this subject is interesting when you consider the oripavine content and similiar compounds found in some species of poppies.
is there a precursor souce for a morphine alternative in nature?

[Paregoric Kid]

P. orientale and P. bracteatum produce oripavine and thebaine, I think the pharmaceutical industry uses them for precursor material for things like buprenorphine, codeine, and etorphines, etc. and we all know about P. setigerum.

[Papa Verine]

P. orientale and P. bracteatum produce oripavine and thebaine, I think the pharmaceutical industry uses them for precursor material for things like buprenorphine, codeine, and etorphines, etc. and we all know about P. setigerum.

Is it easy to buy seeds for these poppies?

I mean, if I were to do a little internet searching?

Any other scientific names used for them?

[Paregoric Kid]

orientale is very common, you can buy it usually any place that sells seeds, even walmarts and supermarkets carry it, usually under the name of Oriental Poppy. bracteatum is pretty common too, its called the Great Scarlet Poppy. if you can't find them locally just go online or to a seed catalog, you can pick them up for a buck or two at most. setigerum is a little bit harder to find but there are several places on the net that sell it. if you plan to plant setigerum use a lot of seeds because the germination rate isn't so good.

[jacky]

and now all we need is some PHD to work the rest out..

ha ha ha....


I thought oripavine might be active on its own....
similiar to thebaine....

thebaine produced dependence in primates...and because of that study, the WHO deemed thebaine as a substance with abuse potential....
never mind that most sources state thebaine isnt active...or is active but with dire consequences.
I dont think they ever found out what thebaine is being metabolized into that is active...but its probably potent.
now thebaine is a controlled substance....but some of the poppies that contain it are not.

what if just a smidgen of thebaine....= a potent substance once the body does its magic.

[Paregoric Kid]

yeah there is evidence oripavine is an analgesic equipotent to morphine, and can cause dependence. it is supposedly toxic though, like thebaine. I bet small doses of thebaine and oripavine taken orally might metabolize into mu agonists and could be enjoyable.
methylated orpavine is 63 times stronger than morphine, ethylated oripavine is 330 times stronger. at least I think its oripavine, maybe the thing I read was talking about ethylating and methylating a bridged version of oripavine, either way thats some strong stuff derived from oripavine. no wonder the pharmaceutical industry turns to non-somniferum poppies for precursor material.