Why 12 step prog's are dangerous cults

[Tar_Baby]

I have my own horror stories which I wont really go much into at this time..( in 1988,as a 12 year old, I was a victim of one of the most notorious mind control/experimental brainwashing camps in the USA, STRAIGHT INC ~ which was a descendant of the SYNANON cult.) google it if you have your interests perked.
These camps are still in operation, they get sued and shut down...then they change company names overnight, shuffle staff, and reopen the next day in the same building with the same kids.

These places use korean brainwashing techniques. Teens are held against their will, and forced to sit in their own feces and urine for hours at a time, while being humiliated and screamed at in front of and by a large group of people. No contact with outside world etc etc..I dont have time to go into this more but anyway heres some links.

http://thestraights.com/theprogram/crimes-deprivations.htm

http://www.orange-papers.org/

[Tar_Baby]

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"The physical and psychological abuse I witnessed and lived under the constant threat of was absolutely incredible. While in St. Petersburg, it seemed that someone in group was always being sat on in the back. There were often people being marathoned in time-out rooms. People who didn’t motivate fast enough would have their arms motivated for them, and if they resisted, they would suddenly be carried/dragged down a row, thrown on the floor [as former Straight counselor Richard Bradbury demonstrates for Channel 8 News Watch, Tampa, Florida, or here as he demonstrates a chair restraint], and sat on for hours. When we filed over to the food window, we would often have to walk by the people being sat on. I have been unable to forget the horrible images of them. Their faces were swollen beyond recognition, there were five to seven people sitting on parts of their bodies including the stomach and chest, they often had a sock or rag of some kind stuffed in their mouths, foam and drool all over their faces and on the ground under their heads, and their breathing was more like labored gasps. It was a sickening thing to see, and my legs were weak from witnessing this. I never saw a humane “restraint,” and this is in my opinion a euphemism for what was done to these people. We had maybe “thirty seconds,” which was actually the time it would take for an oldcomer to count to thirty, to relieve ourselves in the bathroom with lots of people watching and waiting their turns. We were allowed to use the bathroom only twice a day, around the two meals we had in group. People often ended up urinating or defecating in their pants . . ."
Victoria H., M.D. who spent 20 months in Straight being treated for a drug problem she did not have. After graduating Straight she went to college, saw a psychiatrist to help her overcome Straight-induced stress, and eventually became a doctor of medicine.

[flipside]

I have my own horror stories which I wont really go much into at this time..( in 1988,as a 12 year old, I was a victim of one of the most notorious mind control/experimental brainwashing camps in the USA, STRAIGHT INC ~ which was a descendant of the SYNANON cult.) google it if you have your interests perked.
These camps are still in operation, they get sued and shut down...then they change company names overnight, shuffle staff, and reopen the next day in the same building with the same kids.

These places use korean brainwashing techniques. Teens are held against their will, and forced to sit in their own feces and urine for hours at a time, while being humiliated and screamed at in front of and by a large group of people. No contact with outside world etc etc..I dont have time to go into this more but anyway heres some links.

http://thestraights.com/theprogram/crimes-deprivations.htm

http://www.orange-papers.org/

Tar baby, I am incredibily angry and saddended by your experience. I am confused though, this does not sound like any 12 step program I have ever been involved with or heard of. Were you comparing the traditional 12 step programs like NA, AA, CA and the like to this camp of horrors you were we imprisioned in?

[nikz]

that ain't no 12 step program...it's abuse and should be report to local government
Nikz

[chemboy7]

There is actually quite alot out there comparing 12 step programs to cults. I think it is mostly due to one of the steps about admitting there is a higher power while they claim to be non-religous, but that's just MO. I, meself, was ordered to attend AA meetings and did so regularly for awhile and I didn't observe any questionable activity. I am sure that there are groups that are shady though. Maybe the question that needs to be asked is how sacred the "12 step" name is, how easy is it to franchise or claim affliation and adapt steps? Is there like an "official AA stamp of approval"? Because if there isn't any control over it any group could use the 12 step guise as a means of recruiting members for God know's what.

[Tar_Baby]

They used the 12 steps..its just that it was a lock down against the will deal for teens. They try to mentally break you down and then rebuild you..Except you just stay broken down. I didnt really explain well..this isnt the aa meetings you go to, although AA/NA just doesnt work. Its proven fact.
These are long term in patient "mind control" camps. In America..I shit you not.

[Tar_Baby]

Thanks but that isnt why I posted it. I dont need sympathy...I just need for people to be aware. Everytime one of these places gets shutdown they reopen in the same building with same patients and new name.
These places have political clout..the founder Melvin Sembler is the US/Italian ambassador. Bush I and ROn and Nancy reagan endorsed straight.
There are kids as we speak being tortured. Sleep and food deprivation, beatings. But the worst part is the mental abuse. Its proven they are using North korean/'Chinese brainwashing techniques.

[Tar_Baby]

http://thestraights.com/index.htm

[devilsdrug]

can anyone say delancy st

[Curio]

only 2 yrs or so ago there was a kid around Phoenix, Arizona I heard had died while at one of those "reform" camps for kids....apparently he was overweight and had asthma, etc...and they had him out in the heat and didn't believe him when he said he was too hot, couldn't breathe, was thirsty, etc.. you can just imagine...
I don't care what a kid was doing there, no one deserves to die like that in the desert!

[Cornburglar]

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"The physical and psychological abuse I witnessed and lived under the constant threat of was absolutely incredible. While in St. Petersburg, it seemed that someone in group was always being sat on in the back. There were often people being marathoned in time-out rooms. People who didn’t motivate fast enough would have their arms motivated for them, and if they resisted, they would suddenly be carried/dragged down a row, thrown on the floor [as former Straight counselor Richard Bradbury demonstrates for Channel 8 News Watch, Tampa, Florida, or here as he demonstrates a chair restraint], and sat on for hours. When we filed over to the food window, we would often have to walk by the people being sat on. I have been unable to forget the horrible images of them. Their faces were swollen beyond recognition, there were five to seven people sitting on parts of their bodies including the stomach and chest, they often had a sock or rag of some kind stuffed in their mouths, foam and drool all over their faces and on the ground under their heads, and their breathing was more like labored gasps. It was a sickening thing to see, and my legs were weak from witnessing this. I never saw a humane “restraint,” and this is in my opinion a euphemism for what was done to these people. We had maybe “thirty seconds,” which was actually the time it would take for an oldcomer to count to thirty, to relieve ourselves in the bathroom with lots of people watching and waiting their turns. We were allowed to use the bathroom only twice a day, around the two meals we had in group. People often ended up urinating or defecating in their pants . . ."
Victoria H., M.D. who spent 20 months in Straight being treated for a drug problem she did not have. After graduating Straight she went to college, saw a psychiatrist to help her overcome Straight-induced stress, and eventually became a doctor of medicine.

Thanks for posting this TB. The reason things like this exist is because as a society, we're brainwashed into thinking that a life in which drugs are a part is not worth living so any form of abuse to help someone stop, even if they don't want to, is better than having someone use drugs. In other words, alls fair in love and war and the war is for our children's lives (this is not my belief). So basically, parents turn their kids over for this type of abject humiliation and destructive, horrible treatment in the name of "tuff love,"l thinking that their kids will one day thank them. Well guess what, naive parents... that's not what's going to happen and TB, I'll bet you can tell that story better than anyone.

When I was a teenager, my single mother and I had a lot of problems. Mostly because she was (before she died last year at 52) severely mentally ill with bipolar depression and various personality d/o's for which she spent her entire life untreated. She was a teen mother when she had me so she had her problems but as a teen myself, I began to recognize how destructive her erratic and mentally ill behavior were entirely abnormal and when I began using drugs (i suppose to find some kind of escape from how fucked up she was and our lives were) she threatened me with a group like this. I can't remember what it was called something like SCARED, with the D, being the word drugs. We even had a meeting with one of the "counselors," and when I threatened to run away from any kind of camp like this this guy was like, "Oh, we have methods for dealing with runaways," and kind of chuckled wickedly in an effort to scare me, I guess. Well, lucky for me, my mother was not only mentally ill but extremely intelligent and saw right through this supposed "counselor," and didn't send me. We found out later from a friend of mine's mother that SCARED was being investigated for abuses against kids much like those described in TB's post. .

I clearly see the parallel between these scared straight groups and 12 step groups. First of all, drug use is demonized as nearly some kind of mental deficiency in which the user is powerlessly ill and unable to protect themselves from themselves. This is reason #1 why I don't now, nor will I EVER believe in the disease model for treatment of addictions. I do not see addiction as a disease like diabetes or cancer, I know I'll prolly catch some heat for this here but, I think the disease model is just part and parcel of 12 step programs in which the user is painted as some mindless shell of their former selves who has degenerated into a powerless, useless zombie with no other hope than to completely abstain from all substances and admit their complete powerlessness in order to ever be able to see the light of day again. Another parallel is the "treatment," at all costs paradigm. These are the concepts that provide socialized allowances for abuses of person and property such as the abuses described in TB's post, asset and property seizure for those even suspected of engaging in drug activity. For example, try getting caught the police with a large amount of cash on you. No drugs, no criminal record. Just say, $8000.00 cash in a backpack, say that you were going to buy a boat with. So say you were detained and searched by police for suspicious behavior like being sick in a smalltown diner bathroom and spending a long time in there. So say this detaining results in your cash being seized under suspicion of being drug money and not returned for 18 months while your entire background is scoured, your family is interviewed, there results in roughly $3500.00 in legal bills in trying to regain your cash from a small town police dept and the NC state police for simply carrying the cash with you... nothing else. Imagine this. Think that's my imagination? Well, it's not. It happened to my friend's brother who, fittingly enough, had not touched drugs since he was a sophomore in college and was a hard working contractor who was driving south to get a good deal on a boat to bring back to NY with him. Bringing a certain amount of cash with him to pay a substantial deposit. But... all's fair in the name of the war on drugs...

I've read quite a few of TB's posts and it is very easy to recognize the pain this type of thing has caused in his life. But... these abuses are accepted every day because of course, anything is better than having people be on drugs. Like right now... I'm a bit opie buzzed and I think I'll go take a shower, go outside with my kids and enjoy the beautiful day. Better come and force me into some 12 steps because I'm eventually going to burn this motherfucker down... right?

Thanks again TB. We gotta spread this message every day.

[superman]

i've said it before, and i'll say it again; americans are fucked in the head!!!
of course i am not referring to anyone on this forum.

I wonder how such behavior can be so common that more than one person here is familiar with it? perhaps it's all the religious sexual opression? AFAIK in the canada we find healthy outlets for our S&M needs.

Maybe if Jesus supported kinky sex you guys wouldn't have problems like this?


EDIT: tar_baby i am sorry you had to endure this experience, just trying to shine a little humor on the situation

[HistoryofMadness]

i've said it before, and i'll say it again; americans are fucked in the head!!!
of course i am not referring to anyone on this forum.


like we care what canadians think...

:moon:

Can't you tell by our foreign policy that some don't care what anybody thinks?

Hey you know I'm kidding!!!

:drinkit:

I'm with ya, though, that's not the only instance I've heard of this crazy shit... thanks for pushing info forward, tar...

-H

[opiobsessed]

This just pisses me off to hear stuff like this going on, as a sufferer of mental abuse at 3-4 years old only, by my own alcoholic father. I then had my own father get me drinking with him when I was 16-17, ironically that's the only time we got along and felt like buddies together.

That was way before I experienced the total luxury of opiates and is a total different story, but in a small way, I went through some hell in my first opiate rehab experience. The rehab place I was at, alexian bros, was so screwed up at the nurses station when I first was admitted that they started to put someone elses name band on my arm.

I was on subutex for like half the week and felt great, that was until they got all screwed up, the nurse who gave out everyones meds kept on giving me my subutex the day I was supposed to be cut off. Well one noon I got my subutex, thinking they must of changed their mind or something I took it thinking oh well its a good little buzz anyway.

After supper that night, they called me over and put me on the dreaded poison(naltrexone),within a half hour I was in 10 times worse wd than what I was in from the opiate of choice when I first went in for the "cure". I was crying in the bathroom alone, staff, nobody would comfort me, I was shitting in the bathroom forever, sweating, chilling,running nose, gooseflesh, the works and felt worse than I ever felt it before.

To make matters worse, the next day when I was supposed to be discharged I had called my mom to pick me up, she didn't have a cellphone and was already on her way and its an hour drive. The doctor I hated there came to see me, said "I see you refused your naltrexone before bed last night and today when you got up" I said yea uh hu it made me feel worse blah blah.

He said with an evil grin, well I got news for you, you can't go home, I said fine I'll just sign myself out then, my mom is on her way, he said well call and tell her to turn around. I said I can't. Then they said there is paperwork I would have to fill out that takes 5 business days to go through or something, so I was screwed, had to take that poison just to get out of there.

My mom wasted another trip later that night to come get me, wasted $400 worth of scripts for naltrexone, which I easily quit as soon as I got home, then I was on lamictal as well, which of course I had a bad reaction to and was told by my normal psych doc that I had to stop that as well.

2 weeks after I got out, $400 in pills(because no medication insurance yet)and in worse shape than when I went there. I relapsed right back to my drug of choice and felt great once again, cleaned my whole brothers house while I was there, because my mom was on vacation and thought I cant be trusted alone. Well thank god my brother is cool, because it didn't take him long to come home one day and see it in my face that I was opiated out.

[Cornburglar]

Corn, I remember you said you worked with ppl with TBIs (Traumatic Brain Injuries). That takes one special kind of person to do that job. My brother's had 2 severe ones, 10 yrs apart. He's very high functioning 'cause he was so f'king brilliant before the accidents. Mechanical engineer, SAT of 1540 or close, and a Congressional appointment to one of the military service academies (all expenses paid). Dean's list. Then at work, fell 16' head first, off a ladder, onto a concrete floor. Coma for 3 days. Next time, hit while riding his bike, from behind by an elderly man with no insurance. Coma for 3 weeks that time.

Anyway, the reason I said all that is he, thru my mom's endless work, got him funds to live with constant supervision. (Otherwise, he'd own every Ginsu Knife set ever made and is every telemarketer's dream.) But seeing the places available, if Mom hadn't fought and got him companions, was a real eye-opener and awfully sad.



(And sorry for the long rant.)

I love the long rant... as you can tell.

Karen, I appreciate the good old, "It takes a special person to do that," sentiment. Having been in human services for my entire adult life, I've heard that one and I always respond the same way. I'm not special, I just have respect for people. First working with people who are mentally retarded, developmentally disabled, learning disabled and now with people who have sustained TBI, I have learned that people are just people and as long as you treat someone with respect, then everything will be fine. My hats off to your mom and hopefully your brother is living the best life he can after his accidents. The sobering thing about TBI (as you described in your brother's case) is that one day the person has X, Y and Z qualities and then they get hurt or sick and those qualities change dramatically. Well, anyone can get sick and/or hurt and this fact is not lost on me every time I get into a car or leave the house for that matter. One of my clients was a self employed contractor who did beautiful spec work, porches, decks, siding, roofing, additions.... the works. Real nice finish work too. He made top dollar and was well respected in his community as one of the best in the business. Then one day, he went down on his Harley, and his life changed forever. Shit... I used to ride a bike... that could have been me! His recovery has been great but he's still struggling with getting his license back and getting back to work. He lives in a rural area so he's basically stranded while his wife works, until he and I started working together and "gettin it done," as we put it. I'll tie this into the thread in a bit so it's not a total hijack.

So, I meet this guy and he's a grizzly biker. Big moustache, long hair, bong in the kitchen, real gruff voice. He looks at me, he picks up his bong and says, "I smoke refer. I have ever since I was 15 years old. It relaxes me. I grow my own stuff and it is some of the best you can find (I've since discovered this as being true, not by my own sampling... I HATE pot.. no joke, but a friend of a friend... yadda)." He continues, "Smoking pot relaxes me, I like it and I'm not going to stop for you or anyone else." At this point, I realize this person has recieved some sort of human services because the whole model of human service delivery, the part of the job I hate and refuse to subscribe to is to CHANGE THE RETARD INTO WHO YOU WANT THEM TO BE!!!! Don't give up until you have removed any and every bit of self esteem, self respect and personal responsibility from that RETARD and turned that RETARD into a DOCILE, SUBMISSIVE, SUBJUGATED SHELL OF A HUMAN BEING. I'm not joking either. This is not spelled out but this is what is intended. So I look at him after he's made this disclosure to me and part of me thinks he's just waiting for me to argue with him so he can fire me. I tell him, "Look man. As far as I'm concerned, this is your home, your life and your bong. I am a guest here who is supposed to help you out with a few things but as far as what you do, that's your business. I'm not your father. I'm some guy you don't know who hasn't set foot in your shoes and cannot judge where you've been so if you think I'm going to waste our time together trying to change you from who you are into something else, I'm afraid you're mistaken." Needless to say, we've stuck together for a year plus, almost 2 actually and he followed me from one company to another because I respect him, every time I speak to him, I respect him. I don't treat him like a RETARD. In fact, I consider him a friend and I've learned a lot from him. Now.. tie this back into TB's post. This is what society does with people who don't or can't follow the rules. If you're not going to play the game and do what you're told like everyone else, we're going to abuse you. This goes for drug users, people who are disabled or have a TBI (just ask this guy if people treat him differently... he'll fascinate you for hours with stories of how, when, where and why). Society is so afraid of anything different that it demonizes first and asks questions later. Since this is the 'done group, I can draw a parallel there too. Society doesn't want to decriminalize heroin for addicts, medicalize it's administration so that addicts can get what they need without having to hurt themselves and the ones they love (not to mention the one's they dont), no. We're going to bring them to the methadone clinic and turn them into socially acceptable robots. Tragic...

now that's a long rant

[Zoop]

ay yay yay yay! Thats some fucked up shit. Tar Baby, I definitely feel for you and totally believe that shit too. I have heard similar stories about this Synanon place. Scientology runs this racket called "Naranon" - they gave it that name so people would confuse it with Narcotics Anonymous, and it's a freaking brainwashing deal too. Ever see the orignial Manchurian Candidate? (the re-make was pretty good too - Denzel Washington and Liev Schrieber are really talented) Anyways, in one scene of the original Manchurian Candidate, the soviet agent is asking the Korean guy "did you brainwash him?" and the Korean guy answers, "more like he's been dry cleaned." That's what they do to ya in those places - dry cleaning.

Anyways, I guess I'll just go ahead and stick up for AA - 12 step programs. I must say that there are a lot - waaaaay too many local cult-like "chapters" if you will of AA and Na for that matter. There is a group known as "The Pacific Group" run by this charismatic power hungry manic known only by his first name "Clancey" who claims to be this fucking guru and shit. He does manage to get a lot of people sober but they are like slaves to his little cult. In DC we got this AA cult called "the Q group" because the dude who started it is known as "Mike Q." (in AA, everyone is known usually by their first name and a last initial only). Well, I've been involved in 12 step, AA mostly, a little bit of NA since 1998, and all I got to say about it is that it DRASTICALLY improved my life. I have stopped drinking. Haven't had a drink since 1998. I know tons of people who were HOPELESS alkies, junkies, crackhead, et cetera GET CLEAN AND STAY CLEAN FOR LONG ASS TIME! Now, they might relapse after a few years like I did after staying totally alcohol and drug free for 4 and a half years, but even if they do, that's progress.

O.K. lemme break it down, say a dude is using like $100-200 a day in crack or H. He is homeless, jobless, all mixed up and don't know where to go. He goes into a shelter, gets hooked up with going to meetings regularly, maybe gets tapered down on methadone, or something from alcohol if he's got a habit, and he gets a sponsor in the program. He gets phone numbers of other recovering addicts and alkies and calls them regularly. He stays up late in getting coffee, smoking cigarettes, and talking. After a few weeks goes by, he gets a job. Not a great job, but a job. After a couple months he has some money saved. He has several sober friends, some in the same place as he is, some farther along, who are successful, married and whatnot. He feels at home with these people because they are like him. After these few months, he realizes that the compulsion to use drugs or drink (or both, in my case) is no longer present. So, he takes some money that he has saved and gets an apartment, he learns from other people in the program how to do stuff like pay bills, wash clothes, cook meals, be a friend. Maybe he moves in with some other recovering addicts together in a place.

After a while many of them go back to school, get better jobs, and return to being productive members of society. They are happier. It fucking works, not for everyone, but for a damn lot of people. To just dismiss real 12 step work as "brainwashing" is terribly misinformed and more than a little bit, I don't know, angry? Us "opiophiles' know better than most folks the tragedy of a real bad destructive addiction. If something helps so many people, how the hell can you condemn it? If you don't like it, then don't do it!

Making people do it against their will never, ever works. That's a fact. So, I am not saying that people should be forced into AA or some other 12 step program.

The 12 steps are based on rock solid spiritual principles that have been around for a very long time. Read the textbook of AA, known as The Big Book for an explanation of these principles ("the big book" should not be confused with "The Good Book," which is the Bible, that's a whole nother deal altogether - AA is not a religious program). I guess I am very fortunate to have been exposed to real and sincere AA right when I needed it, and believe me I needed it bad. My life today is infinitely better than it used to be.
And today, as you all might know, I am not totally drug free - sober off of alcohol, but not drug free. I use buprenorphine 'cos I'm on maintenance and I abuse it constantly (the doc gives me subutex, and I always snort or inject it), I use sonata, ambien, temazepam, and abuse wellbutrin also. So, I am not a saint. I have made progress, and that's what's important. It's about progress, not perfection. A few people in AA know about the stuff I do, my wife who has been sober in the program for about 17 years knows, and she doesn't condemn me for it, and a couple of other guys know too.

The last thing I'll say is this - addiction is definitely a disease. It's a mental disease just like depression, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, ADHD, Tourette's syndrome, autism, the list goes on. Addicition is most like obsessive compulsive disorder, though, if you want to make a comparison to other mental illnesses. There is of course no cure; there is really no cure for practically all mental illnesss (I can't think of any, can anyone else?), there is an effective treatment, however, and it involves effecting a personality change in the individual. That's the only thing that works and that's all there is. I guess I have only had a small personality change since I have been involved in 12 step recovery, b/c I still use some. I don't get plastered on alcohol everyday, and I don't shoot ritalin and heroin anymore either. So, there you go.

z

[vanilla_mlkshake2007]

I have my own horror stories which I wont really go much into at this time..( in 1988,as a 12 year old, I was a victim of one of the most notorious mind control/experimental brainwashing camps in the USA, STRAIGHT INC ~ which was a descendant of the SYNANON cult.) google it if you have your interests perked.
These camps are still in operation, they get sued and shut down...then they change company names overnight, shuffle staff, and reopen the next day in the same building with the same kids.

These places use korean brainwashing techniques. Teens are held against their will, and forced to sit in their own feces and urine for hours at a time, while being humiliated and screamed at in front of and by a large group of people. No contact with outside world etc etc..I dont have time to go into this more but anyway heres some links.

http://thestraights.com/theprogram/crimes-deprivations.htm

http://www.orange-papers.org/
Wow this was definately some interesting reading Tar_baby!It's hard to believe that this shit is still going on in the U.S but you sure have brought it to light!

[Tar_Baby]

Yeah I was about 12 years old when I got put in STRAIGHT INC..cuz my mom caught me with a joint...and I come from suburban white upper middle class and they freaked. I wasnt a drug addict at 12, but I am now.

[Canis aureus]

Many have died after relapsing after detox. They have taken shot equal to user days and pam!

[Tar_Baby]

That says something. Again, I'm sorry that happened to you (and anyone else caught in one of those places). Hope things are going better for you, now. I need to catch up since being away again for a wk or so....

Yeah thanks..im almost 33 now. Just find it disturbing these places are still open

http://www.alternet.org/story/31000/