Amphetamine and ADHD

[Sweater Ruin]

I was inspired to make a thread about this after reading some of Resorcinol's discussion on amphetamines and other psycostimulants that are often used for treatment of ADHD.

I have never attempted to use an amphetamine for the purposes of recreation. It is my understanding that for most people, (and I have witnessed this in person) amphetamines make someone feel euphoria and become very talkative and social. This is not a concept that makes sense in my mind because I've always felt they have done the complete opposite for me. In other words, amphetamines make me antisocial. When I take an amphetamine I become a quiet introvert and am easily irritated by any kind of distraction (people talking, the tv, music, moving objects, loud noise, etc.)

Does anyone else feel like this when they take amphetamines?

A breif summary on my own use.
I was diagnosed with ADHD around the age of six. I was initially prescribed ritalin. This was around 1996 when adderall was first released to the market. A few years later, my doctor/parents switched me to adderall.

I don't remember what the ritalin felt like, but I do remember that adderall worked MUCH better for preventing my hyperactive fucktard antics and keeping me focused on my school work.

I continued to take adderall until junior year of highschool. I stopped voluntarily because it was making me quiet and antisocial. (I had a perfect 4.0 average) At this point I was more interested in acting like a fucktard and having some fun.

Then I went to college and got owned by the increasingly difficult work load of a Chem Engineering major. I waded through my freshman year barely holding a 3.0 average. I almost failed a couple of classes. Things became worse my sophomore year when I had to start taking some real engineering courses.

I went back on adderall. The thing is, it was different this time.
It made me feel like shit! I would sit motionless at a desk doing hw yet my heart would be racing like I was running a marathon. My muscles would be tense. At the end of the day, my body felt extremely fatiqued and stressed, but ironically I couldn't fall asleep at a resonable hour if my life depended on it!

Stressed is the best way I can describe the feeling. It would be like taking a brief 30 minute period of "I'm late for a job interview" stress and stretching it out over 6 hours. And there was NOTHING to be stressed about! I was rocking my hw assignments and allowing enough time in the week to go out and have a blast at some MSU parties. To say the least, life was awesome!

I hated the shit so much that I attempted to take it as little as possible while still being able to pull decent grades. It got to the point where I would take it on tuesday, saturday, and sunday when I would embark on my 10 hour + study binges. I would have prefered to take it everyday so that I could make more use of the time I spent in class (which was often utilized copying down notes that I never used or understood).

I then went to a psychiatrist (a general practitioner was prescribing the addy).
We discussed different ADHD medications and he made me do some research on them in between appointments.

I decided that dexedrine would be a good choice and I'll be trying it for the first time in a few days when my script comes in (the pharm had to order it). I'm hopeful that from the lack of levoamphetamine I'll be rid of the awful PNS stimulation pain fest that adderall was serving me.

I'm going to keep a time log of my first experience (likely a 10 hour+ calculus 4 hw session). I'll post the results in this thread.

[NV12]

Have you tried Vyvanse (Shire)? It might be a very good option. Or is dexedrine the same thing and I don't know? Anyway, I'd give you my personal opinion on the difference, but everyone is affected differently...


Lisdexamfetamine (L-lysine-d-amphetamine) is an inactive molecule prodrug (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prodrug) (trade name Vyvanse) consisting of the psychostimulant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychostimulant) d-amphetamine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dextroamphetamine) coupled with the essential amino acid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_amino_acid) L-lysine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysine). Lisdexamfetamine was developed so that the psychostimulant is released and activated more slowly as the prodrug molecule is hydrolyzed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrolyzed)—consequently cleaving off the amino acid-during the first pass through the intestines and/or the liver. Essentially, this makes lisdexamfetamine an extended-release formulation of d-amphetamine; however, the release characteristics are integral to the molecule itself, rather than simply the pill construction.
Vyvanse was developed by New River Pharmaceuticals, who were bought by Shire Pharmaceuticals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shire_Pharmaceuticals_Group) shortly before lisdexamfetamine began being marketed. Vyvanse is approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_Drug_Administration_(United_States)) (FDA) for the treatment of attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention-deficit_hyperactivity_disorder) in pediatric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pediatric) patients ages 6–12, and in adults. Vyvanse pills are available in dosages of up to 70 mg. Unlike Adderall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adderall), which contains roughly 75% d-amphetamine and 25% l-amphetamine, lisdexamfetamine is a single-enantiomer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enantiomer) amphetamine formula. This pure formulation may reduce side-effects, but certain individuals exhibit a better clinical response to the mixed isomer preparation, and so choose Adderall XR or equivalent generics.

[Sweater Ruin]

Vyvanse is next in line if Dexedrine causes too many negative side effects.

[NV12]

Vyvanse is next in line if Dexedrine causes too many negative side effects.

Well good luck.. I say definitely try it if it comes to it. I have, and think the difference is drastic.

[HandMeSomeOpiates]

I felt the same way when I was taking adderall SW. Have you heard of Vyvanse? It's an ER form of dexidrine without the salts. It is a pro-drug so it can not be snorted or injected. It has worked greatly for me. Adderall would make me feel jittery, shaky, on edge and nervous like you said and I hated it. My doc switched me to Vyvanse and said it is a lot smoother and doesn't have the crash that adderall does. Suprisingly he was right about it. I have been taking it for about 6-8 months now and feel good. I just graduated college btw last week and when I did my final project it helped me focus big time. Of course it's not for everybody but I think it would be in your best interest to ask your doc about it. Good luck whatever you do bro!

Edit: Just read NV12's post and it looks like she beat me to the punch haha I need to stop replying immediately and read the damn replies. Oh yeah, I need to take my Vyvanse ;)

[NV12]

Also, are you familiar with modafinil (Provigil)? It's prescribed for sleep apnea or narcolepsy, but it's off-label use includes ADD/ADHD. I know for a fact that this can be extremely effective for some people... and matter fact, they just came out with armodafinil (Nuvigil) to replace the Provigil. This Nuvigil has a different delivery system, with a half life of 10-11 hrs compared to Provigil at 6-7 hrs. I know someone who has started the Nuvigil and says it works well. Seems like a lot of benefits, but as always the case with a new drug, unknown side effects...
I know too that doctors (who are willing to prescribe the above) are more inclined to rx this when/if there's history of drug addiction. Anyway, sounds like you're communication is open with your doctor, so hopefully you'll find what helps most. I strongly suggest researching it, you'll find the speedy amphetamine side effects less in my opinion..
Oh, and it's really expensive.

Good luck, hope you find something that works for you..

[Larry]

Do you guys think there is a stigma with Adderals? If you were to mention something to your Doctor about them would most Doctors immediately think you only want them to get high, the same way if you mentioned painkillers for pain?

[Sweater Ruin]

Do you guys think there is a stigma with Adderals? If you were to mention something to your Doctor about them would most Doctors immediately think you only want them to get high, the same way if you mentioned painkillers for pain?

Most general practitioners are already nervous about prescribing schedule II drugs even if you have a legitimate history of using them. For example, when I went on Adderall for the second time, my general practitioner wouldn't let me have it until I had all the documents from my previous doctor faxed over that indicated that I really did have ADHD and had an ~11 year history of using medication for it.

Even with this information, he only wrote scripts for eight months. He then told me that I needed to have my ADHD re-evaluated before he would write any more. He would often give me a suspicious look whenever I went in for an office visit too. That's how I ended up at the psychiatrist I see now.

It probably depends a lot on the doctor. I knew a guy that remarked while we were watching Requiem for a Dream that acquiring a script for Adderall was as easy as asking, exactly like what Harry's mother did to get the amphetamine diet pills. He was from Detroit though. Maybe the doctors there are more lenient? My doctors office was in a fairly conservative location. This guy did have ADHD though, and anyone could see it from a mile away. I don't think he was formally evaluated though. He just walked in and sounded off about having trouble organizing his life, completing assignments, and keeping his grades up.

[Sweater Ruin]

I had my script filled. 30 5mg extended release Dexedrine. Personally I think the dose is a little on the low side. (I was previously on 20 mg Adderall)
I haven't had ANY amphetamines for over two months though, so tollerance is probably down.



Saturday July 11

4:00 pm: 10 mg dextroamphetamine (2 pills at once, crushed and dissolved in water to eliminate the time release mechanism)
4:08 pm: Effects beginning to come on
4:15 pm: Very mild euphoria
5:31 pm: Two girls walked up to my table and tried to initiate a conversation. Normally I would be chatting for 10 minutes. I mumbled a few uh-huh's. I found them irritating. I feel strange and disconnected from the world.
7:31 pm: The dexedrine is gradually wearing off. I've completed a section of practice problems. It was difficult jumping into unfamiliar mathematics, but I really got into it after two hours.
8:57 pm: Going back over a few calculus problems to make sure it sinks in.
9:15 pm: It is more difficult to stay focused the second time around.
1:00 am: Had difficulty falling asleep. Watched iCarly episodes until 3am. LOL! Then went to bed.
Sunday July 12

12:15 pm 10 mg dextroamphetamine (2 pills at once, time release intact)
12:27 pm I can feel it coming on
2:12 pm I've had difficulty sitting still for the past hour. (Nervous legs) I'm calming down now.
4:13 pm Things have smoothed out. I'm still doing HW but I'm no longer antsy.
5:13 pm I've made good progress on the set of problems we have to turn in for a grade. Going ot eat dinner now.
6:06 pm Resuming HW
9:05 pm Wow! Modeling with 1st order linear equations is really freaking difficult!! Reminds me of my first real engineering class. I'm starting to get the gist of these types of problems, but there is much room for improvement.
9:10 pm I'm having a really difficult time staying focused now. Maybe it's because the D-amphetamine has worn off or maybe it's because I've been doing this crap all day! Don't know, don't care.
Check back for more!

[hovadagod]

I need it and hate it. Dex. was the worst for me. I found that a nice klonopin at around 9PM helped a ton. Just have to deal with that crappy feeling if you want to be a "productive member of society". I know there is no good answer for us ADDers. My biggest problem is the tolerance issues.

[Flowergirl]

What a neat post. I've never done these types of drugs recreationally, but my child is on 20mg of Focalin XR. I'm not too happy with it so far - with starting at 5mg and going now to 20mg, I'm not impressed. I think it is time to try something else. It is eye-opening to read of ADD/ADHD from the perspective of an adult who has dealt with it for so long. Thanks for sharing.

Have any of you used Focalin and can compare it to any other drug? I only have experience with methylphenidate and Focalin. It was always my understand that all of the stimulants used to treat ADD/ADHD functioned in the same manner, so I'm hesitant to continue to use my child a guinea pig if we're not going to see better results. At the same time, we need to find something that works. I'd appreciate any input you have!

[Sweater Ruin]

Update!
Dexedrine is definetely an improvement over adderall!

Good
No tense muscles
No racing heart
NO INSOMNIA!! FTMFW!
It doesn't make me feel like shit!

Bad
Not as motivating
Sometimes it makes me really sleepy
First hour of the comeup can be uncomfortable (I feel mentally antsy)
Mild upset stomach (occasionally)
Tendency to become a self absorbed dick head when studying

Overall Dexedrine has made studying a much more relaxing experience.
Adderall would always give me a strong sense of fear and anxiety that I had to complete tasks AND I HAD TO COMPLETE THEM NOW! This characteristic of the medication made it a hellish experience, but I have to admit, it was damn effective for getting shit done pronto.
With dexedrine, I tend to take my sweet old time on the academic aspects of my life. I can focus, but it's like I need to find my own motivation. This is a bit of problem since I'm jamming 16 weeks of higher math into a 7 week summer semester and also have a 30 hour/week job. Time is not something I have much of...

I have an appointment with my psychiatrist on tuesday. I'd like to continue taking this medication for another month, but increase the dose to 10mg extended release, or switch to 5mg instant release.

Flowergirl, you said that you weren't pleased with focalin's effect on your son. Could you elaborate on what kind of issues he is having? I'd love to hear!

[LongKissGoodNite]

This is interesting .. I recently took some vyvanse and well .. I took two so what .. so of course I was fucking thrown into overdrive .. I was on here yesterday and i was fucking throttled. I mean not so much euphoria .. but just about every other symptom of being on crystal meth was there ... i was cluckin like a goddamn bird. Jaw was jacked heart was racing and I could barely think.

So of course I crashed hard .. not as hard as Ive done on street amp but still very similar .. I decide to take the 'recomended' dose today and actually I think it might be right .. I mean I had more control over my thoughts .. I was talking to people about our interfaces at work ... usually I stumble and umm alot . but goddamn even with a hangover I was like a mental giant! I was going on and on not umming and just putting all the shit together in my head with a glorious speed. Dont understand it. Dont quite get why when i take 2X the amount it doesnt work and I feel like I just took a hit off some glass .. and then when I take 1 its like a miracle .. cant figure it ..

The side effects are pretty damn rough though .. dont know if I can do this everyday ... though maybe im just still hungover .. I think I need to try all the stims before I give up ..

[30_Units]

I came to the same conclusion about dexedrine as you,op, but my anxiety and persistent psychotic breaks/nervous breakdowns ended all of that.

Try and take weekends off-your mind and body will thank you. Relax on the weekends, try and eat (i lost so much weight between adder, focalin, and dex) and sleep will come a lot easier.

I dunno if you were on the XRadderall, but it's designed to last all day. Dex is not. you'll get peaks and crashes throughout the day (depending on your dosing schedule) as your blood plasma concentrations of the drug dip and increase with metabolization and redosing.

Good luck, i've been in a complete lurch since getting off amps-better than psychotic breaks though. I hope they work better for you.

[Chipper]

I used to be prescribed Dex for ADHD. I was on 5 mg TID; last dose at 4 pm. One day, another doctor just took me off them (I was quite upset).

I found that taking more than the prescribed amount actually increased my ADD and the side-effects became more prominent.

High doses only felt good on the odd occasion but eventually made me become dysphoric and the body load got unpleasant.

The best option would be Desoxyn (pharmy Methamphetamine) - one 10 mg dose in the morning sounds ideal but the TGA here doesn't allow it due to it's high abuse potential.

The down-side of dex is the high pulse, raised blood pressure and dry mouth. I still managed a decent nights sleep due to the subtle exhaustion that comes with the higher pulse. My appetite never sufferred, though.

One day, I'll try to get back on them - they would be handy at work instead of me constantly writing reminders, using headphones to block out other people's discussions and going off on tangents when in discussion.

Ritalin just made me too "wirey" and the only downside from therapeutic doses of Dex was a "sombre" or "serious" feeling, if that makes sense to anybody.

[OpiXPO]

Ah man, I remember getting diagnosed with ADD back in elementry school, tried out a bunch of differnt meds and ended up with adderall. Turned me into a freaking zombie, and hated it. Didnt think much about it when I told one of my friends that I was taking it once I was in high school and had damn near half the school crawling down my throat to buy them all from me and I was thinking "WTF would someone want to get turned into a zombie and all anti-social from this shit like it does to me." Ohh the ignorance..

[resorcinol]

Do you guys think there is a stigma with Adderals? If you were to mention something to your Doctor about them would most Doctors immediately think you only want them to get high, the same way if you mentioned painkillers for pain?

I think there's a mild stigma with regard to psychostimulants, but not at nearly the same level as with opioid analgesics. In a lot of cases, the general "psych meds are evil!" message that gets applied to antidepressants also (non-recreational obviously) by anti-psychiatry folks is the more prominent stigma attached to the likes of Adderall, Focalin, Ritalin, Concerta, etc while the "abuse and diversion" stigma is in second place.

There's a strong stigma for all CII drugs, and a degree of stigma for all controlled substances. This stigma is, however, stronger for downers than uppers, and among downs, strongest for opioids (especially if they're CII).

My personal theory as to why this is true is simple: 1)Opioids have a longer history of stigma that is more ingrained in American society. Heroin especially is viewed by many as the most dangerous drug to ever use. Thus opioid pharmaceuticals are constantly linked to the (unfairly) stigmatized heroin, and plenty of docs and pharmacists are sucked right into the abyss of the "opioids kill" nonsense.

2)Drug effects. America values productivity and, sadly, also values almost robotic and machine like ability to grind through tasks often times with little to no creativity. Stimulants like amphetamine and methylphenidate will increase ability to complete menial tasks, they'll increase energy and stamina, and they'll increase the productivity of the user of the drug. While "drugs are bad" in the mind of the average drug-warrior American ... when this list of effects is heard, it seems less horrible even if only unconsciously to the listening person. These effects sound like an enhancement of the "american dream". The horrible side effects of being strung out on stims helps to temper this and gives them some stigma, but that stigma is reduced by the effects which are on some level seen as "good effects for a drug".

Downers like benzodiazepines and especially opioids are viewed as turning the user into a drooling, half awake, non productive, lazy as hell junkie. This has the OPPOSITE effect as the effects of psychostimulants on the stigma since these effects seem to be at odds with American society. Opioids promote creative thinking, tangental behavior on tasks, and MAY reduce productivity (however, this may be worth it, for the increase in quality, if the work being done is of an intellectual or artistic nature). However, these effects STRENGTHEN the stigma that the withdrawal syndrome of downer addiction gives downers to start with, again often unconsciously. These are seen as "Oh my gosh, why would anybody want effects like that even if it feels good, what an awful type of drug".

Sure, the fact that downers are on the whole far less neurotoxic and hard on the body than uppers, and the fact that downers tend to not totally change an individual's personality the way that uppers often can (you always hear how somebody strung out on meth is "unrecognizable as X") are quite known, but competing with a powerful stigma formed in the manner above is incredibly futile it seems.

3)Kids are FAR more often prescribed psychostimulants (for ADHD) than opioids or benzodiazepines. This serves to falsely mislead many people into seeing said psychostimulants as "safer" and "less addictive" since "they're given to kids all the time, but those tranquilisers and narcotics are only given to really sick kids". The real reason is that the disorder (lets not debate whether it's real or not at the moment) ADHD tips that scale and is solely responsible for why you're far more likely to find a kid with an amphetamine Rx than an OxyContin Rx.

Thus, we have the levels of stigma for different controlled Rx drugs. IME, CII opioids have the largest stigma both at the pharmacies and at doctors' offices. Next in line are CIII compounded with APAP opioids like Vicodin and all of the CIV benzodiazepines. After that, the CII stimulants come in to the picture (only DESOXYN has a stigma that possibly even EXCEEDS CII opioids, but the rest are far less stigmatized than CII opioids OR CIV benzos). Finally, the weakest stigma is attached to minor controlled substances with only slight recreational potential like zolpidem and the other z-drug a1 selective benzodiazepine agonists, stuff like pregabalin (Lyrica) which has even less rec potential than zolpidem (zolpidem is actually a fun drug .... I've never tried lyrica but it doesn't sound fun), stuff like modafinil that shouldn't even be scheduled ... you get the idea.

I forgot to include pot pharmaceuticals. I'd say their stigma is in the same league as "CIII compounded with APAP opioids and all of the CIV benzos". Again, pot is viewed as fading one out, causing one to think abstractly, inducing creative but sometimes nonproductive activity, and causing munchies. Like downers ... that has an unconscious kneejerk "NO!" ring to it for many Americans. The stigma is weaker than downers because the GLARING evidence of how incredibly benign weed is compared to almost all other drugs INCLUDING alcohol is so difficult to ignore that it puts a dent in the stigma imbued by the effects ... but not enough to give them less stigma than psychostimulants. I conclude that psychostimulants, despite being incredibly psychologically addictive (cocaine and methamphetamine [especially cocaine] would lead chimpanzees to ignore food and mating until death to press a button for another shot ... heroin chimps would press the button to the point of addiction but would still eat and fuck) for some people, are unconsciously seen as less of a problem than downers in general. I feel that this attitude is reflected in many a doctors office and many a pharmacy (chains in particular).

Before I found a great family owned pharmacy, I'd go to a particular chain (Rite Aid). My Rx for dexmethylphenidate (a CII stimulant) would cause no strange reactions at all, ever. The Rx for klonopin got them in a noticeably bad mood. The Rx for Duragesic? Oh lawd ... the pharm tech and pharmacist would practically grow horns ... I'd have to show DL ID that was heavily scrutinized to prove my adult age and identity, and sometimes was asked for another form of ID for extra confirmation (used my university ID). Sometimes they'd be rude throughout the filling process no matter how kind I was to them and no matter how much I refused to be rude back. This is unacceptable, but it happens every day, in far far too many pharmacies, and makes patients feel like shit for needing a medication. The medical system should feel ashamed but instead it's instilling ever increasing levels of opiophobia in new doctors fresh out of med school and the same for new pharmacists right out of pharmacy school. Hell, even my under-18 sister (now over 18 but was under at the time of the last round of kidney stones), who has CP (at such a young age ... it's fucking depressing and cruel), while with her mother, has faced the opiophobia at the chain pharmacy. They've given her and my mother hell over filling the Percocet 10/325 Rx for 90 pills in a month during a recent flare up of multiple kidney stones. She was very obviously in real pain and oxycodone works the absolute best for her. I think some pharmacists are SO opiophobic that they're nasty about opioid Rx's even if they DON'T think the person filling the Rx is a recreational user.

This has all changed at the family owned pharmacy, where all of my family's medications are filled without judgment from the staff. The pharmacist makes small talk with us, asks each of us how we're doing with this and that problem and medication, and bends over backwards to ensure that we're not inconvenienced by the web of insane rules about prescription meds. These small family owned pharmacies care more about you and about keeping you as a customer, fullstop! The pharmacist remembers my entire family's regular medications, including the controls, and keeps them in stock if they're obscure (like my oxazepam and the in-shortage generic dexmethylphenidate). He even remembers our generic brand preferences (like I prefer mylan generic duragesic and he never forgets).

Another benifit unrelated to the medication is the young Indian guy who works the register. He's very very cute and I'm 99 percent sure he's bi or gay. Why? He flirts with me very obviously every time I go to get my medication, whether I'm alone or with another family member. I'm actually considering pursuing him ... he's a really super nice guy, he likes to talk about intellectual stuff like I do, he's a bit shy like I am, and he's extremely adorkable. Damn, I go to this pharmacy and get a shitload of controlled subs AND I get hit on by a very cute twink mid 20s Indian guy! Could it get any better? I think not (well maybe ... if the pharmacy started giving OTC codeine cough syrup [which is technically legal] to loyal long time customers upon request). I actually wouldn't be surprised if they're one of the rare rare places that might dispense some for you if you had a hacking nonproductive cough but didn't have the time or money to go to a doctor for something more substantial than dextromethorphan. I know they stock the OTC CV codeine syrup because I've seen it on the shelf there near the other Rx-needed opioid cough syrups, so I bet they do sell it to some folks that come in with a hacking cough.

They carry dilaudid cough syrup to ... I've seen it on the shelf. That's another thing ... they're VERY well stocked. Unlike just about any chain, with this place, you've got a decent chance of them having an obscure drug in stock if you're given an Rx for an obscure drug. If they don't, or just don't have enough pills, they'll order. It'll arrive same day if you come in to give them the Rx before noon, and the next morning if you come in after that. If they have the med but not enough, you'll get a partial fill right away while they wait for the rest, even if it's a controlled substance.

Fellow 'philes, do yourself a HUGE friggin favor and find a small, non chain, family owned pharmacy. You'll be treated like a human being and a valued customer there. Over time you'll become friends with the pharmacist and his or her employees. They won't treat you like scum for having a controlled Rx ... in fact, they'll be really great about it. My pharmacist always asks how the medication is working for me, if it's doing enough, etc. He's awesome.

Their quality as a pharmacy shows in the massive increase in business they've seen over the past few months. People are getting FED UP with Rite Aid, Walgreens, etc. They STILL fill your Rx in 10 minutes even though they're busy. One right after the other. The customer service is the best I've seen. I'd NEVER use a chain pharmacy again. They're AWFUL ... just TERRIBLE.

[Sweater Ruin]

I'm experiencing the same problem as some of you.
If I take too much Dexedrine it makes my ADD worse.
I tried to take 20mg extended release (2 pills) and I felt VERY mentally agitated and uncomfortable. My mind was racing with thoughts and I could not focus on one thing. I kind felt like I was going crazy.

10mg extended release is having good therapeutic effects. I find my school work (and other boring/monotonous tasks) more interesting. However I don't feel like I'm any better at these tasks, only that they are more interesting and I am therefore willing to sit there and figure things out instead of becoming frustrated and giving up.