stone's throw from walking into the clinic

[opiobsessed]

Just saw my suboxone doc today, told him its barely holding me anymore, gave him the details etc. He said, well you going to any aa or na meetings? I was honest and said not lately because of my health. He then said have you used any other opiates lately? I lied to save my butt and said no. There are still plenty of options out there besides sub he said. I started getting excited hopeing he would switch me to something better. Well all he did was give me my usual sub script and some prozac. I was like wtf, I been on prozac before and it didn't do much. He also told me I've been on the sub a little over a year and a half and since it has a ceiling effect you can't raise the dose anymore, so you are basically at the end of your sub program. I said well(thinking oh cool methadone to myself)can you switch me or do I have to go to cps in town?, he said I would have to go there to be on it and come in everyday. Already knowing that, he's writing my sub script and prozac script. As I walk out, I"m thinking why did he give me prozac with my normal sub script again? is he going to see if the combo helps as a last resort before handing me over to the clinic? I know I"m headed for the meth clinic very soon, within a month, but I"m kind of confused about the plan. Will my sub doctor tell all about my history or send over my records to the clinic before I go there so the clinic can know how I think and act? I"m assuming for sure that my sub doc will talk to the meth clinic about me and my opiate history etc. So I'm sure they will be ready for one junky hog to come walking into there, especially with the tolerance I got. Anyone got any good suggestions on what I should say or do, or not say or do when I go into the methadone clinic? I already know for one thing since my whole colon was taken out, I have a totally different much faster metabolizm than normal people, so I will play it safe for a while and try to get on a split dose because with my condition, I"m almost sure one dose of methadone daily would not hold me that's for sure.

[Coddfish]

I don't THINK doctors or clinics can exchange info on you unless you release them to do it. If somone can back me up, I'd say just tell the meth clinic your real history, if they ask. But tell them you are sick of 'this life' and you just wanna be 'normal,' or somethin' like that.

In my experience, the more of a junky you are going into a done clinic the better. Just tell them you cannot stop taking opiates and nothing is holding you. Given everything you have shared on here, you should be a good candidate for meth.

I bet the doc is reluctant to put you on meth because he thinks you are not 'cheating'; he figures "well, as long as he's not using I guess he'll be ok for a while longer on sub. It must not be that bad" That's my guess.

In any case, good luck! Hope you can finally get some stable relief, if thats what your goin for. And if you feel like you really need to go to the clinic, I don't see why you couldn't just go. You might tell your doc, but eh, just do it if you want to. They'd probably take you right in, if they have room.

[chemboy7]

Be careful with that Methadone... it has a very long half life and the WDs from it are far worse than most recreational Opaites, also; from what I hear, it is very hard to taper down with meth and most doctors want to keep you on for longer periods of time than is necessary (to make more money off you?). I would advise that you just try a different route of administration with the subs (i.e. snort of IV) your dose instead of going for the Methadone. It is my understanding that Methadone clinics are slowly being phased out by the bup method of treatment, and Methadone being used more as an Analgesic. If after you try switching up your method of ingestion you see little results it might not be a bad idea to add alittle Immodium (Loperamide HCL) into the mix... that may help, to be completely honest that is an educated guess; I am unsure. You can get those poop pills OTC without so much as a dirty look so it may not be a bad idea to try it out before you sign your name in blood on the Methadone trip cause in the long run, your just switching your DOC and not really making an effort at sobriety... unless your looking for a mantainence treatment rather than a taper method eventually (with all luck) bringing you down to a zero dose and completely free of your Opaite passion.

[opiobsessed]

Chemboy, I dont quite get what you mean about the immodium in your post above mine, I know one time I was wd'ing bad from hydro and had read on here that immodium helps make wd alot more bearable so I tried a whole bunch at once. It did nothing much for any of my symptoms, however since I had my whole colon taken out at one time, I didn't have any way to know if it would have helped with diarrhea. My sub doc even told me never to take immodium because it has a little bit of an opiate in it that could make me wd while on sub. However to my surprise, that time I was wd'ing bad and took all that immodium and after 3 hours waiting and nothing happened, I hung on for dear hope and took a chance taking one 8mg suboxone, surprisingly I didn't get sick, I just suddenly got better and the wd's went away after taking the sub. I was surprised the immodium had no effect on me.

[Hammilton]

The opiate in Immodium, Loperamide, really can't precipitate withdrawal. Why? It doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier. It has none of the effects we use opiates for, unless we're using them to stop diahrea... ;)

It is very good at stopping that though. Precipitated withdrawal is caused by the sudden stripping of one opiate and replacing it with another more completely binding opiate. Since it doesn't hit the brain, that doesn't happen.

I've never found it to be useful for any part of WDs other than the diahrea. I suppose if you believe in it enough you might have other effects too. The risk of precipitated withdrawal with Bupe and other narcotics is actually really exaggerated. Most of the instances involved taking it when someone was already awfully high. Taking a narcotic after taking Bupe is mostly without risk, as well; However it will almost certainly decrease the effect of the other narcotic. Taking an opiate shortly after dosing Bupe might cause the opiate to not work at all, or, if that opiate comes on very quickly, and the Bupe hasn't, it might be possible to precipitate withdrawal.

[HistoryofMadness]

Chemboy, I dont quite get what you mean about the immodium in your post above mine, I know one time I was wd'ing bad from hydro and had read on here that immodium helps make wd alot more bearable so I tried a whole bunch at once. It did nothing much for any of my symptoms, however since I had my whole colon taken out at one time, I didn't have any way to know if it would have helped with diarrhea. My sub doc even told me never to take immodium because it has a little bit of an opiate in it that could make me wd while on sub. However to my surprise, that time I was wd'ing bad and took all that immodium and after 3 hours waiting and nothing happened, I hung on for dear hope and took a chance taking one 8mg suboxone, surprisingly I didn't get sick, I just suddenly got better and the wd's went away after taking the sub. I was surprised the immodium had no effect on me.

Here's a first hand experience statement, take it or leave it, but if you say its not true, tell me why:

If you are on subs, or tex, or bupe (same shit), and you take another opiate, you will not go into WD. If you using other opiates, and have been for a while, and you take a bube (sub, whatever) then nothing happens... no high, but no WD either. I don't know where you guys are getting the info tht sub can cause WD if you're on sub and you take something else. Its not true.

[Canis aureus]

If you asre on sub and take other opiate/opioid, that shouldn't work, that other opioid.

But if you are, for example on methadone maintenace, don't take sub!!! Then you'll get withdrawals, the most probably; there is examples of people to have taken sub and it has caused really horrible WD's then. It is based on that that bupreneorphine has higher affinity but poorere activity on mu-receptors and would then kick methadone from receptor and replace it with weeker opioid, and that causes withdrawals, which could be a hell!!! Same could happen to heavily addicted heroin user, though usually heroin users aren't physicaclly that addicted... Some are though.

All MMT patients don't fuck with Buprenorphine!!!

[jab]

This isn't a 100% true. Yes, you can use Bupe if you are on Opiates and not go into WD. BUT, if you are using Opiates and take Suboxone, you will go into precipitated WD. The reason why is that Suboxone is Bube with Nalaxone added to avoid abuse. The Nalaxone is a short acting version if Naltrexone (sp?) which is what they give people who OD; which is why they wake up in WD. If you are taking Suboxone orally, and no opiates, the Naloxone is not strong enought to case WD; only in poeple using full agonist Opiates. Hope that helps.

So yes, you can take bupe, but no you shouldn't take suboxone while on Opiates unless you are allready in WD. Now there is also Subutex; which does not have the Naloxone added, as some patients can't take it.

Be safe!

Here's a first hand experience statement, take it or leave it, but if you say its not true, tell me why:

If you are on subs, or tex, or bupe (same shit), and you take another opiate, you will not go into WD. If you using other opiates, and have been for a while, and you take a bube (sub, whatever) then nothing happens... no high, but no WD either. I don't know where you guys are getting the info tht sub can cause WD if you're on sub and you take something else. Its not true.

[HistoryofMadness]

This isn't a 100% true. Yes, you can use Bupe if you are on Opiates and not go into WD. BUT, if you are using Opiates and take Suboxone, you will go into precipitated WD. The reason why is that Suboxone is Bube with Nalaxone added to avoid abuse. The Nalaxone is a short acting version if Naltrexone (sp?) which is what they give people who OD; which is why they wake up in WD. If you are taking Suboxone orally, and no opiates, the Naloxone is not strong enought to case WD; only in poeple using full agonist Opiates. Hope that helps.

So yes, you can take bupe, but no you shouldn't take suboxone while on Opiates unless you are allready in WD. Now there is also Subutex; which does not have the Naloxone added, as some patients can't take it.

Be safe!

Yeah I'm a dumbass.. left a step out... I guess I meant that subs won't really get you high like something else.... fuck I don't know, that doesn't make sense... hey is someone else posting under my ID?!?!

J/k I think I was trying to make the point that you could use on subs and .... oh fuck it I just made mistake.

[jab]

LOL! It's cool mang! I just wanted to clarify. :D

Yeah I'm a dumbass.. left a step out... I guess I meant that subs won't really get you high like something else.... fuck I don't know, that doesn't make sense... hey is someone else posting under my ID?!?!

J/k I think I was trying to make the point that you could use on subs and .... oh fuck it I just made mistake.

[devilsdrug]

shit now im reeally confused ya i know i confuse easy

[HistoryofMadness]

shit now im reeally confused ya i know i confuse easy

If you're on dope, don't take sub before you're in WD or you'll be thrown into WD because (not because of the natrexone) of the agonist / antagonist effect of the bupe in the sub...

If you're not on anything and you take sub, you may get a little high, like a hydro 10 or something (try to remember your first hydro 10)...

If you're on sub, and you take something else, you won't feel it unless you've skipped at least a day (preferably 2 or more) of your sub dose.

If you're on Methadone maintenance, and you don't wait more than 2 days, you are probably going to be in serious deep shit with WD.

And finally, the naltrexone is there ONLY to stop IV'ers from abusing the drug in high volumes. That is supposed to cause a WD reaction (and I'm sure it will in high enough doses)....

Does that help DD? Or were you confused about where you were and who you were with?

[shaunclo]

If you're on dope, don't take sub before you're in WD or you'll be thrown into WD because (not because of the natrexone) of the agonist / antagonist effect of the bupe in the sub...

If you're not on anything and you take sub, you may get a little high, like a hydro 10 or something (try to remember your first hydro 10)...

If you're on sub, and you take something else, you won't feel it unless you've skipped at least a day (preferably 2 or more) of your sub dose.

If you're on Methadone maintenance, and you don't wait more than 2 days, you are probably going to be in serious deep shit with WD.

And finally, the naltrexone is there ONLY to stop IV'ers from abusing the drug in high volumes. That is supposed to cause a WD reaction (and I'm sure it will in high enough doses)....

Does that help DD? Or were you confused about where you were and who you were with?

History is exactly righ, people think its the naloxone in the suboxone that causes you to go into w/d. That is not true, it is the bup itself that causes w/d. If you are a habituated opiate user and you take even subutex (pure bup, no naloxone) you will go into w/d's if you dont wait until you ARE in w/d's, trust me I have fucked that up 1 too many times.

[shaunclo]

Same could happen to heavily addicted heroin user, though usually heroin users aren't physicaclly that addicted... Some are though.

What does that mean? You are confusing me, you are saying that H addicts arent physically addicted, but some are? Please elaborate

[opiobsessed]

I know from my experience and what my doc told me, anytime you take a strong opiate like H etc, then sometime after even if you are starting to wd from the last H dose you took that if you take a weaker opiate than H for example, you will go into slight or precipitated wd. I myself had that happen once I was in wd from 10/500 vicodin for less than 24 hours, had a bunch of darvocet sitting there, thought this is a piece of cake, I'll take the darvees to get rid of wd and feel kind of buzzed too. Wrong was I, I took 2 darvocets and suddenly the wd's got worse and kind of stayed bad but didn't keep getting worse, then the wd's went away a little so I took 2 more and so on, then within an hour I had taken 8 darvees and the wd's were barely gone but then I started feeling very strange mentally it was scary, my face went flush and I just felt like sick. I luckily never tried this but dont, whatever you do the worst thing to do is take an opiate and then shortly after take a suboxone. My sub doc said if you do that you will be in the worst wd's possible, might even send you to the er. He basically said it this way, take an opiate anytime after your sub dose and the opiate dont work unless you wait a long time after last sub dose, its the other way around that will really give you a hell ride of your life(taking a opiate and then taking your sub dose that will be the biggie wd). Also one last note, someone let the darn cat outta the bag said my sub doctor. One of his sub patients must have pussied out, told him that you can crush and snort subs and get high. My sub doc told me his patients are admitting to sharing these, while trying to help a friend in wd, trading sub for oxy or a real opiate etc. People gotta learn to keep quiet about this, it just makes us look worse. On the other hand I'm no angel either, but I've learned from very dumb past mistakes in life, loose lips sink ships and I keep my mouth shut when I"m supposed to.

[jacky]

immodium is like methadone in that it takes a long time to manifest....the plasma levels peak at 32 hours, well beyond the time that most people would expect.

even methadone doesnt give a person a quick effect, unless they are already saturated with the compound.

I think that immodium is a hit or miss for alot of people, some people notice that it helps, others dont feel much besides tiredness.

I know that loperamide causes increased sedation, or that it can, perhaps this is a marker that the drug does have some effects outside of the colon, unless the opiate receptors in the colon can effect how a person feels?

basically this stuff is a last resort material, good for a few things.

I know a person was taking up to 200 milligrams of it a day, and was worried just as much about having to lower loperamide dosage as their classic opiate painrelievers, they claimed that lowering loperamide dosage would cause them to suffer some mild withdrawls, they were worried cause they couldtnt afford the loperamide anymore, and would have to rely on just the oxys.
they never did get back to me on what happened.
this person had been using loperamide to boost their opiates effects for a few years.

[Canis aureus]

Hey all!

Yes, I was sort of stupid ass, some heroin users aren't so addicted physically... what to think...? Of course heroin addicts are deeply hooked, and all who really use dope... It is just problem in here, and in maintenance that there are some of young folks who have came in maintenance, while they haven't been such addicted, and it sort of sucks. That was the main reason for my stupid post.

Those young ones have just drove all so hard here, that I'm bit angry to those. Those who aren't so addicted have came to maintenence and now it's pretty hard to get appropriate dose in maintenence (because of those)... they are thinking at the maintenace that all are those young ones, and they are trying to keep us in low doses. But I am fucking addicted nd need higher dose all the time. they have rised my dose all the time, and now I don't even know what it is, and I'm still cranky in the morning, though not using crank. It's getting better all the time. So, sorry about such a stupidity!

I didn't think, just typed... happens...

[Coddfish]

have seen that too. It sucks, you have 17-19 year old kids (not that you couldn't be strung out at 17) who started taking vics after their wisdom teeth were out, and then they buy a few more from the neighbor kid and they think they have a habit. SOmetimes the parents push it when they shouldn't, thinking they are 'fixing' their kid. Have seen that too.

Or some kids just lie about how much they used to get methadone. It's pretty ridiculous.

Meth can help people, but most meth patients I met said they would have kicked a different way were they able to do it over.

[poppy]

Hey all!

Yes, I was sort of stupid ass, some heroin users aren't so addicted physically... what to think...? Of course heroin addicts are deeply hooked, and all who really use dope

Hi Cannis glad you cleared that up.
Just a couple of questions what do you call a high dose and what dose did you start at.
At my clinic they start everyone off low (regardless of age) cos they know that almost everyone goes in and exaggarates their heroin usage because they think that way they'll get a bigger script obviously the clinic and especially the prescribing doctor want to cover their own asses as they don't want to be held responsible for any subsequent OD's. I can see the sense in that.

[Lil_Miss_Brownstone]

Taking suboxone when you are already high is the dumbest thing you can do with it! I had taken H AFTER taking subs and nothing happened but i didnot get high. the next time i tried to kick with sub I did not want to deal with even starting to get sick so i took 2 8 mg subs before my last shot of H had even worn off and I got just WAY WAY WAY sick! I threw up and was sweating bad. I took a few vics and I think they helped.

[Tar_Baby]

You mentioned meetings,NA/AA are dangerous cults. They have the same success rate as someone just quitting on their own with no counselling/help. I dont know why 12 step programs are the yard stick by which all treatment modals are measured. I think the Treatment industry is grasping at straws because noone knows what to do for addicts.

Check this link out regarding NA/AA cults
http://www.orange-papers.org/

[opiobsessed]

Yep, thats the reason I quit going to them shortly after I got out of rehab.
After one lousy experience at one meeting, I decided these guys are just nothing I even enjoy talking to. I did have a hope though, that I might meet someone there who can hook me up or show me the ropes without ripping me off. However that never yet happened so I gave up and quit going, also it seems the same people always come to the same meetings. They even show up at other meetings too, makes it look like an old small world with the same depressing cult members.


Then(at least in my area)you get the once in a while newcomers who are just there because of court order, or rehab order. They always seem to be wound up, like hmm maybe they are buzzin and they are the ones to talk to. However they just walk right out and I never get to know them. Everyone in this area seems to just suck, they are all to themselves and their own crowd.

I dont know how everyone elses area is, but I think I live in the wrong part of the Chi burbs, a town with a bunch of bible bangers, I would be shocked if there's a dealer in any part of this town.