Drug Decriminalization in Portugal

[Chipper]

According to a BBC radio doumentary that I heard today, many people aren't aware that Lisbon (Portugal) had decriminalised ALL drugs. That aside, here is one article I found on the subject.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10080

It's still illegal to deal, though. But it is a step in the right direction.

[squareone]

Cool article, lets see if its a good move.

[nullnull]

compared to other countries, portugal is the most
progressive one regarding drug laws imo.
besides there should be plenty stuff avaiable.
good coke smuggled via africa into europe, hash
produced and smuggled from northern africa
and of course heroin brought in from the balkan states.

ive always fantasized about moving there. the weather
should also be nice. :cool:

[squareone]

compared to other countries, portugal is the most
progressive one regarding drug laws imo.
besides there should be plenty stuff avaiable.
good coke smuggled via africa into europe, hash
produced and smuggled from northern africa
and of course heroin brought in from the balkan states.

ive always fantasized about moving there. the weather
should also be nice. :cool:
that does sound good.

[Chipper]

It's a good site; I also found interesting information on current drug policies. OK, I'm done with external resource thing for a while.

[Duckfeet]

Yeah: I'm always interested in that stuff, and it does seem like Europe is heading in a direction that shows a little more compassion--and understanding--of what it is like for us, particularly longterm "hopeless" addicts...like me. But I live in a country who still lets it's religious pseudo-morality affect decisions made, sometimes before most of us were even born, and we pay and pay...

For any longterm heroin addict, who has tried and failed many times to get off heroin...and paid the usual prices in loss, in incarceration, in just general despair...I would think seriously about going to those countries...the "problem" is twofold: making enough money to support oneself--a pension is handy--and getting into the programs themselves...hell, nowadays, w/the good databases, just getting into a *country* can be tricky if you have felonies...

but it's nice to dream...*nothing* you'd ever want to consider unless you were resigned to your fate, etc...

But Portugal is doing what we hope they'll finally do in the U.S....but by that time, I'll be dead, and the cartels will probably own the place....

[nick]

umm,I know Australia is a little behind the times,but some drugs have been decriminalised in Portugal for many years,maybe about a decade.

How much it's actually changed life for users I'd like to know more about.

DCBA,should be able to give us the inside track.

[Paregoric Kid]

didn't Spain do the same thing? I thought you could still get sent to rehab if you got caught by law enforcement after I think 3 times, maybe its only that way in one of the two countries. if you can be an addict and still face mandatory rehab that isn't really that great. its not criminalized, its institutionalized, is it really any different? lol
I know Spain and Portugal's decriminalization laws have been discussed here before.

[Duckfeet]

Exactly: and that's what's been happening here, for about a decade: it provides lots of easy work for "addicts in recovery" and the rest of us, inevitably end up in jail anyway...interesting to not, that along with all the rah rah crap about "helping people," we've also privatized and steadily increased our prison population, most of whom are addicts...nothing has changed but the vocabulary: I'd rather go back to old days: at least I knew where I stood: legalization is only hope, and Ron Paul lost, naturally...he was the only politician who seemed to understand the real problem....that's why I don't get all excited when I hear about "decriminalization..." hell, sometimes it *has* been decriminalized here, but along w/that goes "probation..." and I found that more fucked than prison time...and you end up there anyway...just takes a while....so allow hard heroin addicts to get heroin--as some of these countries do--and I pay attention, but just "decriminalizing drugs?" Yawn.


didn't Spain do the same thing? I thought you could still get sent to rehab if you got caught by law enforcement after I think 3 times, maybe its only that way in one of the two countries. if you can be an addict and still face mandatory rehab that isn't really that great. its not criminalized, its institutionalized, is it really any different? lol
I know Spain and Portugal's decriminalization laws have been discussed here before.

[nick]

Yeah,decriminalisation is far from perfect,but to paraphrase Churchill on democracy,it's the best deal in an ocean of crap.

[Duckfeet]

Ah, yer rite, Nick: it just never seems to help me personally, u know...I'm always in wrong place or wrong timeframe, or just plain fucking unlucky...kinda bums me out...but I agree, realistically it's all we can hope for...I know it's a positive move...it's just, u know, England had it so right, back when any doc could pretty much prescribe to any addict...and then it just seemed to get more and more complicated, mostly due--I think--to pressure from my country...but still, it's like you said: better than all the rest...sigh...


Yeah,decriminalisation is far from perfect,but to paraphrase Churchill on democracy,it's the best deal in an ocean of crap.

[Paregoric Kid]

oh and by the way that is a good article. cato institute is cool as hell, they always have good principled libertarian views. plus PJ O'Rourke and Penn & Teller are HL Mencken Research Fellows at the cato institute.
the most fair/least restrictive drug decriminalization proposal that I've heard so far was a year or two ago when Mexico was close to actually doing it. all you had to do was register and you could legally possess small amounts of any drug, without any penalties or bullshit. unfortunately they caved into US pressure. the only good thing Obama has and probably will ever do on drug policy was ending new prosecutions on medical marijuana dispensaries. aside from that his drug policy will likely be the same as or worse than Bush's (at least there was no talk of federal gun bans to help fight the drug war under Bush). the US needs to declare the CSA and the DEA unconstitutional, then we would be much more likely to see real decriminalization, as in able to go to the store to buy heroin, cannabis, and cocaine real. as for democracy, true democracy is rule by tyranny of the majority. a constitutional republic with limited government would be much more preferable in my opinion.
democracy- two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.

here are some of the threads that mention Spain and Portugal's drug decriminalization:
http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=13569&highlight=spain+portugal
http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=1022&highlight=spain+portugal
http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=918&highlight=spain+portugal

[Paregoric Kid]

here is an update on how the Spanish legal system treats drug users:
As noted above, other EU nations have
adopted what amounts to de facto decriminal-
ization, but have not explicitly declared drug
usage “decriminalized.” In Spain, for instance,
“a drug consumer will still be judged by a crim-
inal court, although he or she will never be sent
to prison for drug consumption alone.”
29
Moreover, a gap in Spain’s drug laws exists
whereby public drug consumption is prohibit-
ed, but private drug usage is not, and Spanish
legislatures have left this gap standing

[Duckfeet]

That's my thinking too: and all the shit that mexico has been going thru, w/the drug cartels, and violence, is starting to hit here, more and more...same as it migrated from Colombia to Mexico...and also, u know, Mexico--and Canada--have gotten just disallusioned enough w/the U.S. and our useless drug policies, that they both are finally realizing that for their own survival and well-being, they'll just have to say fuck u, usa, and do what needs to be done...for me personally: it's the only hope at all, and moving to Mexico for me, is no strain...but we'll see....and I too, believe that any thinking addict must find that libertarian candidates are the only ones who offer the *real* solution...but it takes a lot of study to realize this, as the more liberal of the two major parties always *talks* so much more compassionately...well, they've got the juice now, and so far, nothing they've done has been any kind of improvement now, so I'm skeptical at best...but I'm *really* hoping that now, w/the cartels just about running all the lower gov and police that they want, that mexico will try to take one last stand to save it's country from chaos, and go the legalization route...as we once did, when we saw prohibition of alcohol, which had created some of the most violent powerful criminal groups ever known here: La Cosa Nostra....

We'll see tho....

oh and by the way that is a good article. cato institute is cool as hell, they always have good principled libertarian views. plus PJ O'Rourke and Penn & Teller are HL Mencken Research Fellows at the cato institute.
the most fair/least restrictive drug decriminalization proposal that I've heard so far was a year or two ago when Mexico was close to actually doing it. all you had to do was register and you could legally possess small amounts of any drug, without any penalties or bullshit. unfortunately they caved into US pressure. the only good thing Obama has and probably will ever do on drug policy was ending new prosecutions on medical marijuana dispensaries. aside from that his drug policy will likely be the same as or worse than Bush's (at least there was no talk of federal gun bans to help fight the drug war under Bush). the US needs to declare the CSA and the DEA unconstitutional, then we would be much more likely to see real decriminalization, as in able to go to the store to buy heroin, cannabis, and cocaine real. as for democracy, true democracy is rule by tyranny of the majority. a constitutional republic with limited government would be much more preferable in my opinion.
democracy- two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.

here are some of the threads that mention Spain and Portugal's drug decriminalization:
http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=13569&highlight=spain+portugal
http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=1022&highlight=spain+portugal
http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=918&highlight=spain+portugal

[nhop]

There is momentum building in this country for a change in our drug laws/policies. Just this week there was a good editorial in the NY times by Kristof calling for an end to the drug war.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/14/opinion/14kristof.html?ref=opinion

I noticed that in the letters to the editor (Which is supposed to be reflective of broader opinions/reaction) 5 out of 6 letters favored Kristof's opinion. The one dissenting opinion was from a former ONDCP employee:

http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/2009/06/18.html

Other recent signs of progress have been Senator Webb's call for a review of our incarcerqation problem. (Usa is #1 prison nation in world, both absolute numbers ,& per capita) & Schwarzeneggers recent call for a new debate on drug policy.

[Duckfeet]

That's so hopeful...I just hope I get to see it...I know me and you are right down here on "la frontera" too, so, one way or the other, we'll be seeing changes soon...I just hope those changes aren't at the bad end of a gun...or if at least the fuckers would learn how to make real heroin...fuck....;)


There is momentum building in this country for a change in our drug laws/policies. Just this week there was a good editorial in the NY times by Kristof calling for an end to the drug war.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/14/opinion/14kristof.html?ref=opinion
I noticed that in the letters to the editor (Which is supposed to be reflective of broader opinions/reaction) 5 out of 6 letters favored Kristof's opinion. The one dissenting opinion was from a former ONDCP employee:
http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/2009/06/18.html
Other recent signs of progress have been Senator Webb's call for a review of our incarcerqation problem. (Usa is #1 prison nation in world, both absolute numbers ,& per capita) & Schwarzeneggers recent call for a new debate on drug policy.

[nhop]

.I just hope I get to see it...

Me 2!! Im not a youngster anymore, & sometimes I wonder if I'll ever see this in my lifetime. mI still think the USA will ,probably be amongst the last nations to enact major reforms, but who knows....If I didnt have 3 yrs probation hanging over my head I'd be out of here so fast...

BTW, glad to see you back & alive & well. I know some ppl here were worried about u a little ways back, myself included.-Your pt. loma neighbor.

[nick]

Me 2!! Im not a youngster anymore, & sometimes I wonder if I'll ever see this in my lifetime. mI still think the USA will ,probably be amongst the last nations to enact major reforms, but who knows....If I didnt have 3 yrs probation hanging over my head I'd be out of here so fast...

BTW, glad to see you back & alive & well. I know some ppl here were worried about u a little ways back, myself included.-Your pt. loma neighbor.

Sadly there are quite a few countries with a more hard line,pro prohibition approach than the U.S. Sweden,Russia and several countries in Africa in the gulf,come to mind.Of course non of them have the same clout internationally as the U.S.

[Paregoric Kid]

china used to execute their addicts, wouldn't doubt if they still did. but the USA is still #1 in the number of non-violent drug offenders in prison.
its easy to have massive support and still get fucked. most people don't think the war on drugs is working and the vast majority of americans support medical marijuana and probably over half support recreational marijuana legalization. one way drug policy might change (without CSA and DEA being declared unconstitutional) would be if the FDA approved cannabis tincture (like opium tincture and paregoric) and/or vaporizer based cannabis preparations, and hybrids like sativex, which would change the medical marijuana argument significantly in this country. if that happens and the feds would ALSO cave on recreational marijuana and have it be regulated by the ATF and controlled like alcohol; that would cause a change where either the rest of the drug laws will be seen as nothing more than the same bullshit that marijuana prohibition brought and the CSA gets repealed; OR we could very well end up seeing ONLY marijuana get legalized and waiting another 70 something years or maybe never till seeing "harder" drugs become legal. that is just my speculation anyways on the chances of drug legalization in the USA.

[clinton]

great stuff, it's nice to know some countries are getting it right....
Sweden has hardline drug laws ?
Odd I would have figured they'd be the opposite ...

[libertine]

the US needs to declare the CSA and the DEA unconstitutional


as for democracy, true democracy is rule by tyranny of the majority. a constitutional republic with limited government would be much more preferable in my opinion.
democracy- two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.



i totally agree with the first statment, they are unconstitutional, most people fail to realize that banning much less criminalizing a chemical goes directly against the constitution.

but as the the second, i see america as a republic with limited government control of the economy, ahah except for now but that's another conversation, already. true democracy does not exist anywhere, I do beleive it was our own hysteria and not congresses that got us in this situation in the first place, but now it is our goverment's moral duty to protect us, and the children of course, which is bullshit. I want as much personal liberty as possible, but I think a republic according to a constitutuion is what we have now, just not so limited.

Sadly there are quite a few countries with a more hard line,pro prohibition approach than the U.S. Sweden,Russia and several countries in Africa in the gulf,come to mind.Of course non of them have the same clout internationally as the U.S.

yeah, Americans think we are the worst when it comes to this, but Russia doesn't even allow methadone maintenance, Sweden hates the liberalism of their neighbors, etc.