View Full Version : "don't ever talk to police"
Coddfish
05-24-2009, 05:46 PM
after reading up on zk a bit, i was reminded of a film i saw recently. i doubt the information in it would've helped him, but it couldn't have hurt. i don't think.
a professor at Regent Law School, a Christian university in Virgina, talks about why a potential suspect or witness for ANYTHING, should never talk to the police. IT CANNOT HELP YOU, ONLY HURT YOU.
it's about 20 minutes, but the guy talks 1000 miles an hour and it's packed with info.
here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik
and here is the follow up by a police chief, basically supporting everything the professor says. pretty interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE&feature=related
if it's already been posted, sorry.
the 5th amendment is extremely powerful, so we should use it when we can.
chemiKalz
05-24-2009, 06:59 PM
I had seen those videos before your posting, and I'll agree that most if not all the time its in your best interest to not commicate with them, but there are sometimes you have to, I.E. people pissing in my backyard constantly(just kidding, its my fault i live adjacent to a ghetto liquor store)
Coddfish
05-24-2009, 07:15 PM
if you're a victim, i think you gotta weigh the pros and cons, but if your trying to explain why you shouldn't be charged. . . . they're just looking for reasons to arrest people.
thier job is to throw people into "the system." they may be "good people," but their job is what it is.
Never talk about anything you could potentially be charged with,but always BE POLITE,it goes a long,long way.
Great post OP.
The really crappy thing about talking to the cops is -- they are ALLOWED TO LIE to you about evidence (ie. tell you they have some kind of evidence like DNA or drug analysis that they don't even have!) when interrogating suspects -- but if you lie to them (Even one little white lie) they use that against you in court..but if you say THEY lied to YOU first to provoke a response, all the prosecutor has to do is cite case law that states police are allowed to mislead suspects as long as they don't coerce them into a confession...keep yo trap shut, you only need to know four words -- "I need a lawyer."
On a side note, I'd like to bring up something that I still hear to this day...people asking other people "are you a cop?" and saying if you ARE a cop, you have to say you are...that's 100% bullshit. cops don't have to identify themselves at all...whoever thinks that they do is a tool...it's not entrapment unless they are directly involved in CREATING crime where there would have been none had they not been involved...so you selling drugs to a cop is NOT a case of entrapment, cause whether or not you sell to that cop, you're still gonna sell to somebody...just because you were caught doesn't mean shit. Entrapment cases are extremely hard to prove anyways, so it's best to just keep in mind that it's a possibility that anyone you know could be an informer, and take it from there..be cautious, not too cautious -- be smart basically.
No,man.You need 5 words "I need a lawyer PLEASE."
That extra word,which costs nothing,can make your life a lot easier.
No,man.You need 5 words "I need a lawyer PLEASE."
That extra word,which costs nothing,can make your life a lot easier.
Lol, nick you're such a nice guy :P BTW, thought I would add once you invoke your right to counsel (ie. mention the word lawyer or attourney) they are supposed to stop interrogation at once. If they continue to ask you questions after you have asked for an attourney, none of that can be used against you...bottom line though is it's their word vs. yours as to when the questions were answered..before or after you asked for a lawyer, so either way it's best to plead the FIF :P
hovadagod
05-24-2009, 07:47 PM
Basically anyting you say before you get arrested is admissible. So ask for a lawyer even before you're arrested even if the cop tells you that you don't need one b/c your not being arrested. Unless you aren't guilty of anything and want to share what you know.
Look out for number one.........the pigs don't care.
It's their job to bust you.
If the pigs are trying to put you in jail........don't help them.
Your lawyer is gonna be so much happier when he hears you didn't say.......ANYTHING.
A lot of times they will say "it's gonna look bad if you don't talk to us" bullshit. You will get a mistrial 99% of the time if they bring up your invocation of rights. They can't even HINT to the fact that you said "i don't want to talk without a lawyer".
Never say anything incriminating at all, but you should not just be silent or demand a lawyer right away, unless you are for sure fucked.
I have evaded so many arrests by looking the cop in the eye and talking with him. Explaining what I do, who I am, etc. If you come off as immediately pleading the 5th, you're obviously hiding something...and they're going to find it.
I 100% agree with nick-- being polite goes very, very far with cops. Consider the types of people who become cops...they thrive on being over others, needs gratification...if you suck their ass they will really enjoy it and will probably be less likely to bash your face on the pavement and take your piece of shit ass to jail for a weed pipe.
Duckfeet
05-24-2009, 10:57 PM
What will incriminate me in a legal proceeding, is way different from just street bs...I try to have good excuse ready and be friendly...if you clam up as soon as cops show up, they *know* you are up to no good, and they can take you in for 72 hrs without pressing charges
...and they know *we* know it too, so...everybody chats w/the cops, or trys to "explain" themselves, and what we are doing there, and why we have a crowbar and a pillowcase and rubber gloves on the backseat, etc...only time you don't say *anything* (unless you're way tougher than me) is when I know they've got me cold, and are just trying to find shit out...
Cops know innocent people will talk, so it's good to have a little friendly, polite conversation, show them the jehovah's witness tracts you were passing out, ask the way to the nearest walmart you were looking for, ask if they would mind if you read some scripture to them, show them your "Homeless Outreach Coordinator" lapel, blah blah blah...
But if I just refuse to talk, and say "take me to jail, fuckers, I'll *never* talk," well, I'll get my wish...there's always a little give and take: they're trying to find out what you are up to, and you are trying to convince them you aren't up to shit...cops are naturally suspicious...usually w/good reason...only *really* hard motherfuckers clam right up, since they know they are going down anyway, and actually *are* planning their defense...the rest of us, well, there's a little give and take, until we know whether we need a bail bondsman or not...the trick is to chatter, without lying...and without giving any serious info they can look into...
Again, databases have made it *so* much harder to deal w/cops, along w/pharmacists and doctors, as they can see--in my case, anyway, that I've not been much a saint in my day...in old days it took them a few days, to get prints back and shit...and unless they wanted to take the time, to do NCIC check, it didn't happen...and they *know* we aren't really going to sue them for false arrest, etc...if we had that kind of juice we wouldn't be sitting where we were sitting....
Never ever believe ol bill......Never ever admit to fuck all.......The jury system is their to be manipulated....
In my time i've had a few "not guilty" verdicts, maybe 6/7 on some serious charges.....Trust me (i'm a lawyer;)) but never ever talk to ol bill.....
They bug ya cell, they'll entice some scumbag to say you said dis/dat.....Just basically consider em da enemy and its war.....Fuck da police....
If i'd a opened ma mouth i'd still be in jail.....I like ma freedom...and keep ma mouth shut....
Uncle Wiggly
05-25-2009, 01:22 AM
Never talk about anything you could potentially be charged with,but always BE POLITE,it goes a long,long way.
Nick, Being polite had got me out a quite a few jams. You don't have to be all, "yes sir. No sir." But - it helps to treat the cops with some respect, whether you have any or not. Some of them are only doing their job and aren't looking to fuck any one over - some of them.
I ran a stop sign right in front of a county sheriff. He had to slam on his brakes to keep from broadsiding me. When he came up to my window I owned up to what I'd done and told him I was sorry. He took my license, walked back to his car and I was thinking this was going to be a huge fine a quite a few points. He came back in a couple of minutes and told me everybody makes mistakes, no one was hurt and to pay more attention to what I'm doing. I was a happy cowboy that day.
Never ever believe ol bill......Never ever admit to fuck all.......The jury system is their to be manipulated....
In my time i've had a few "not guilty" verdicts, maybe 6/7 on some serious charges.....Trust me (i'm a lawyer;)) but never ever talk to ol bill.....
They bug ya cell, they'll entice some scumbag to say you said dis/dat.....Just basically consider em da enemy and its war.....Fuck da police....
If i'd a opened ma mouth i'd still be in jail.....I like ma freedom...and keep ma mouth shut....
On the other side of the coin when you're looking at major offenses, as opposed to moving violations and other small shit, it's best to keep your mouth shut. The cops are allowed to lie and basically do what they want to squeeze you into a cell. Just like it says in Miranda, "Anything you say can and will be held against you in a court of law."
The Paregoric Man
05-25-2009, 01:23 AM
Again, databases have made it *so* much harder to deal w/cops, along w/pharmacists and doctors, as they can see--in my case, anyway, that I've not been much a saint in my day...in old days it took them a few days, to get prints back and shit...and unless they wanted to take the time, to do NCIC check, it didn't happen...and they *know* we aren't really going to sue them for false arrest, etc...if we had that kind of juice we wouldn't be sitting where we were sitting....
I wanted to expand on this, too many drug users give out subtle cues and tells and guilt signs.
A cop should NEVER be able to look at you and say "drug user/addict" especially if you're carrying or copping, you really need to think on why this happens if it does.
If you interact with the police they should NEVER find out you are part of a group that can be fucked with, IE poor, homeless, addict. Do not ever admit to any of these, if they can instantly tell as much you have failed from the get go and need to fix that pronto.
Nobody ever guesses I am a indigent middle school drop out addict, if I choose to reveal it they are shocked and disbelieving. And guess what? The cops do not fuck with me, I am not the droid they are looking for.
You have to learn how to project the aura of a normal successful citizen, you must learn the art of poker face and conquer fear. I don't know how to describe it really but you have to learn to let go of guilt, you have no reason to feel guilt and nervousness at the presence of a cop.
Once a cop is looking your name up for warrants you've already lost the game.
Even tho i have a habit and its well known by the uk ol bill....They still knew dont fuck.....Threaten me wiv 72hrs police custody and heres ma response....
"I dont giv a fuck cluckin in ya police cell, i'll be shittin an spewin everywhere and trust me, i wont be usin no fuckin toilet for my waste....Ya wanna see and smell dat shit for 3 days, its fine by me!"
Its quite funny when i used to get checked out by da LE back home, once dey do da CRO tingy (criminal records office), they always back off...Unless its some specialised unit or sumting....Like one time dey told ma father in law "we catch Raz wiv a firearm there aint gonna be no trial, just an inquest".....
Never ever trust da police...But den again, i guess its down to wat kinda person you are....In my life the police are not sumfin i'm friendly wiv or trust....Its just the way it is....
Sure.........if you're trying to get out of a speeding ticket or chewing gum in class........be polite as you're manipulating them.
If on the other hand you are caught up in some real game chilly shit...........don't give them anything.
Whatever you say can/will help them build a case.
lilred0005
05-26-2009, 05:49 AM
Ever watch A&E's "First 48" or "Crime 360"? Even if the perp is a sraight up murdering scumbag, I'm shouting at the t.v.:"shut up asshole, just shut the fuck up"! I've seen so many cases on First 48 where if the suspect would have lawyered up, the cops would have been screwed cause they would of had nothing. It's like some of these ppl should go to jail for stupidity. LAWYER UP if you're involved in anything deep & DON'T feel guilty for it, you are only invoking your rights. Btw, anybody watch "Locked Up Abroad" on NGC? Great show!
Don't feel guilty for invoking your rights, but if you're murdering people, definitely feel guilty.
lilred0005
05-26-2009, 06:27 AM
Don't feel guilty for invoking your rights, but if you're murdering people, definitely feel guilty.
Hey I certaintly don't condone most of what I see on that show. Frankly, most of those ppl belong behind bars but sadly someone caught w/ enough pill or dope that it's "intent to distribute" will probably get more time than the murderer, rapist, pedifile, ect. Our drug laws are so draconian! Makes me so angry when I see ppl commiting violent acts, like these 4 guys beat & raped a 95lb. woman & then cut her up w/ a broken liquor bottle, they got 10yrs for all that. However someone with a larger amt of drugs will get manditory min. of up to 25 yrs. Sorry if I went off topic.
SHELLEY
05-26-2009, 06:54 AM
in the town where i grew up, every once in a while some crazy shit would go down
and it went down with the entire neighborhood standing in their doorways watching
but when the cops came, no one saw anything
the whole neighborhood was taking a shit simultaneously while some asshole gets gut-shot
because it doesn't pay to go around witnessing things
not when you hafta live in that town, and see these people every day
plus if you say you saw something and then you won't tell everything you saw
NOW they got you for witholding evidence in a murder investigation or some horseshit
but you guys call me ignorant, you should see me when i talk to cops :)
"i didn't see anything, i don't know that guy, i've never heard that name,
i don't know anyone on that street, i've never been in that bar, i have no idea what you're talking about"
Don't feel guilty for invoking your rights, but if you're murdering people, definitely feel guilty.
No shit Indy....How do ya feel guilty....Like do ya suddenly call ya chica's pussy "guilty" coz dats da only way i'mma feeling guilty bro...:p
Opiyum
05-26-2009, 10:01 AM
Of course the dilemma is if you do answer any questions then you are helping his investigation (which is what he is doing at the moment he begins talking to you) and if you don't then it looks suspicious and he will use it against you and possibly arrest you.
The best thing to do is to, politely, tell the cop you don't want to answer anymore questions and ask if you are free to go. IF yes then politely say goodbye and leave immediately. If he says no then you should ask if you are under arrest or if your being investigated for a crime. If he says yes to that then simply ask for your attorney and say nothing more than that. In this situation you are going to jail anyway.
If your arrested because you didn't want to answer questions that are none of his business then he was most likely going to take you in anyway.
And never say yes to a search of your car. Even if he does search it anyway you have a better chance of it being thrown out in court though the courts seem to be stripping our rights in car searches more and more. If you are arrested they are going to search it to do an inventory anyway at the impound.
If you have a brick of heroin hidden well and you also have some weed stashed somewhere it can be a good idea to give the cops something to tide them over. Tell them about the weed or whatever and you may get away with it.
SHELLEY
05-26-2009, 12:10 PM
If you have a brick of heroin hidden well and you also have some weed stashed somewhere it can be a good idea to give the cops something to tide them over. Tell them about the weed or whatever and you may get away with it.
i did this one :)
i had a gun and 2 joints, and when that pig got ready to tear my truck apart
i passed up the weed and said to please not tear up my brand new vehicle, heres what i got
he didn't search, i got a NTA for small amount of pot, and didn't get got for unreg firearm (by convicted felon)
lilred0005
05-26-2009, 12:56 PM
i did this one :)
i had a gun and 2 joints, and when that pig got ready to tear my truck apart
i passed up the weed and said to please not tear up my brand new vehicle, heres what i got
he didn't search, i got a NTA for small amount of pot, and didn't get got for unreg firearm (by convicted felon)
That takes serious guts. I'd be afraid once they found out I had pot, they'd toss the whole car.
hovadagod
05-26-2009, 01:03 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6uw7506xMw&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo%2Egoogle%2Ecom%2Fvideosear ch%3Fclient%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%2Dus%26q%3Dam%2520 I%2520being%2520detained%26oe%3DUTF%2D8%26um%3D&feature=player_embedded
SHELLEY
05-26-2009, 01:12 PM
That takes serious guts. I'd be afraid once they found out I had pot, they'd toss the whole car.
sometimes ya just gotta roll dem bonez
clackity clack, hope for sevens :)
Coddfish
05-26-2009, 06:00 PM
...and they know *we* know it too, so...everybody chats w/the cops, or trys to "explain" themselves, and what we are doing there, and why we have a crowbar and a pillowcase and rubber gloves on the backseat, etc...only time you don't say *anything* (unless you're way tougher than me) is when I know they've got me cold, and are just trying to find shit out...
Cops know innocent people will talk, so it's good to have a little friendly, polite conversation, show them the jehovah's witness tracts you were passing out, ask the way to the nearest walmart you were looking for, ask if they would mind if you read some scripture to them, show them your "Homeless Outreach Coordinator" lapel, blah blah blah...
But if I just refuse to talk, and say "take me to jail, fuckers, I'll *never* talk," well, I'll get my wish...there's always a little give and take: they're trying to find out what you are up to, and you are trying to convince them you aren't up to shit...cops are naturally suspicious...usually w/good reason...only *really* hard motherfuckers clam right up, since they know they are going down anyway, and actually *are* planning their defense...the rest of us, well, there's a little give and take, until we know whether we need a bail bondsman or not...the trick is to chatter, without lying...and without giving any serious info they can look into...
Again, databases have made it *so* much harder to deal w/cops, along w/pharmacists and doctors, as they can see--in my case, anyway, that I've not been much a saint in my day...in old days it took them a few days, to get prints back and shit...and unless they wanted to take the time, to do NCIC check, it didn't happen...and they *know* we aren't really going to sue them for false arrest, etc...if we had that kind of juice we wouldn't be sitting where we were sitting....
a couple things:
a few people have mentioned how they've kinda talked themselves outta jail or whatever. cool. i'm seriously glad for those incidents. however, i think most of you will agree that le is transitioning to a stricter, revenue generating, by the book, obedience enforcing tyranny machine. talking your way out might've worked for you last time, but eventually there WILL be a time when you regret talking to the police.
duckfeet, i respect the hell outta you, but this position you've taken is one of the major problems with the le/citizen situation today. if EVERYONE used our god given/natural right enshrined in the costitution to tell gov't agents (ie., people) to mind their own business (or invoke the 5th amendment) then this wouldn't be an issue. we are losing it because we are afraid to use it. IT'S A FUCKING RIGHT!!! and not a little guilt shield we keep in our back pocket for use when we think we might REALLY need it. if guilty AND innocent people avoided talking to police whenever possible, there would be no reason for anyone to fear "looking guilty" because they don't want to talk.
it's that simple. if you might be a suspect for ANYTHING, then don't talk to them. it can be used against you, but not to help you. why would suspects talk to the police? and if they arrest you for not talking, you'll get a nice settlement for their violating your consitutional rights.
here's a suggestion: next time a cop asks you something that you don't wanna answer--especially if you're innocent-- kindly tell him/her that you aren't going to answer his questions because you feel WE ALL need to exercise our rights whenever we can or we might lose them. nothing personal and do what you must officer.
hovadagod
05-26-2009, 06:09 PM
a couple things:
a few people have mentioned how they've kinda talked themselves outta jail or whatever. cool. i'm seriously glad for those incidents. however, i think most of you will agree that le is transitioning to a stricter, revenue generating, by the book, obedience enforcing tyranny machine. talking your way out might've worked for you last time, but eventually there WILL be a time when you regret talking to the police.
duckfeet, i respect the hell outta you, but this position you've taken is one of the major problems with the le/citizen situation today. if EVERYONE used our god given/natural right enshrined in the costitution to tell gov't agents (ie., people) to mind their own business (or invoke the 5th amendment) then this wouldn't be an issue. we are losing it because we are afraid to use it. IT'S A FUCKING RIGHT!!! and not a little guilt shield we keep in our back pocket for use when we think we might REALLY need it. if guilty AND innocent people avoided talking to police whenever possible, there would be no reason for anyone to fear "looking guilty" because they don't want to talk.
it's that simple. if you might be a suspect for ANYTHING, then don't talk to them. it can be used against you, but not to help you. why would suspects talk to the police? and if they arrest you for not talking, you'll get a nice settlement for their violating your consitutional rights.
here's a suggestion: next time a cop asks you something that you don't wanna answer--especially if you're innocent-- kindly tell him/her that you aren't going to answer his questions because you feel WE ALL need to exercise our rights whenever we can or we might lose them. nothing personal and do what you must officer.
Amen brother.
vanilla_mlkshake2007
05-26-2009, 06:16 PM
Hey Codd! I agree with you,also I wanted to say I miss ya and can't wait to hear from you.I believe you have my e-mail from 2005-2006,so throw me a line .Are you still living in the woods like me?
Coddfish
05-26-2009, 07:40 PM
Hey Codd! I agree with you,also I wanted to say I miss ya and can't wait to hear from you.I believe you have my e-mail from 2005-2006,so throw me a line .Are you still living in the woods like me?
indeed. although not for long, prolly. i'll catch up to you.
Duckfeet
05-26-2009, 08:03 PM
I disagree: I've been w/hardened convicts, who'd never snitch, and know the law better than anybody I know, and if a cop pulls up behind you, they know to clam up is to go to jail...maybe you guys really are innocent, or are standup and tough, and fight for rights, and are willing to do a few days in lockup, rather than be sociable to a cop, or sacrifice your federal constitutional rights as you interpret them...me I've paid lots and lots of hard dues, to learn the reality of street life is never as cut and dry, as all that...
if I know I've pulled a caper, and the cops are coming around, then I clam up, naturally, because like any experienced felon, I'm thinking of my *legal* defense, not the immedate hassle of sitting in a holding tank for a day or two, then on to the cellblock: I know I'm going down, and I've nothing to say: they know that, and I know that...I got arrested for a shooting Florida, cops come and get me in this local bar, thought I had a gun in the car, of *course* I'm not going to let them legally search the car...and of *course* they search it anyway, and of *course* they would have gotten it upheld in court, as they usually do, since they would have said they had "probable cause" to search, blah blah blah(I knew this, so...gun gone)...cops know this shit better than me, you, and half the defense lawyers...
But if I'm just in a "bad" neighborhood, and a cruiser pulls up behind me, no way in hell I'm going to demand my "rights..." Streets are different...cops and crooks both know the angles, and play them as good as they can, until either the cuffs are being put on, or they drive away...
I mean no offense to anybody on here, but much of the "I'll never say a word to cops, never have, and never will", sounds a lot like the stuff you see on cop movies, or hear in jail, when people are talking about what hardcases they are on the streets...nobody has ever had to do a day of time for my shit, and my girl has done more years in prison than anybody on here, but we both will chat up a cop, and try our damndest to get cut loose, and sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't...
Any street savvy con can talk and answer questions without copping to shit, or giving up somebody...this is online world and we're all brave and tough here...but when I'm sick and cold, and I've got a balloon in my mouth, and a rig in my pocket, I desperately want to go *home*, not fight constitutional criminal procedure down the line. and act accordingly...
Opiyum
05-26-2009, 09:23 PM
I disagree: I've been w/hardened convicts, who'd never snitch, and know the law better than anybody I know, and if a cop pulls up behind you, they know to clam up is to go to jail...maybe you guys really are innocent, or are standup and tough, and fight for rights, and are willing to do a few days in lockup, rather than be sociable to a cop, or sacrifice your federal constitutional rights as you interpret them...me I've paid lots and lots of hard dues, to learn the reality of street life is never as cut and dry, as all that...
if I know I've pulled a caper, and the cops are coming around, then I clam up, naturally, because like any experienced felon, I'm thinking of my *legal* defense, not the immedate hassle of sitting in a holding tank for a day or two, then on to the cellblock: I know I'm going down, and I've nothing to say: they know that, and I know that...I got arrested for a shooting Florida, cops come and get me in this local bar, thought I had a gun in the car, of *course* I'm not going to let them legally search the car...and of *course* they search it anyway, and of *course* they would have gotten it upheld in court, as they usually do, since they would have said they had "probable cause" to search, blah blah blah(I knew this, so...gun gone)...cops know this shit better than me, you, and half the defense lawyers...
But if I'm just in a "bad" neighborhood, and a cruiser pulls up behind me, no way in hell I'm going to demand my "rights..." Streets are different...cops and crooks both know the angles, and play them as good as they can, until either the cuffs are being put on, or they drive away...
I mean no offense to anybody on here, but much of the "I'll never say a word to cops, never have, and never will", sounds a lot like the stuff you see on cop movies, or hear in jail, when people are talking about what hardcases they are on the streets...nobody has ever had to do a day of time for my shit, and my girl has done more years in prison than anybody on here, but we both will chat up a cop, and try our damndest to get cut loose, and sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't...
Any street savvy con can talk and answer questions without copping to shit, or giving up somebody...this is online world and we're all brave and tough here...but when I'm sick and cold, and I've got a balloon in my mouth, and a rig in my pocket, I desperately want to go *home*, not fight constitutional criminal procedure down the line. and act accordingly...
I agree with you for the most part on this and yet I stand by what I said about saying as little as possible. There are plenty of things you can talk about that aren't going to hurt you and only make it seem like you are cooperating more. When the questions start edging towards interrogation thats when I shut up. If know your getting cuffed anyway and there is no way out of it then you need to protect yourself.
If you start showing off with your knowledge of the laws and your rights you won't be liked.
And nothing you can read in a book or see in a video orvlearn from this thread can prepare you for whats it's like when you see flashers in your rear view mirror.
GET FREE! BE FREE! STAY FREE
Oh and if you want a good read on the prison system and cops and how to deal with them and talk to them and how to survive in federal and state prisons and even holding cells and county jails then check out a book called. "You are going to prison" it's written by our old friend Jim Hogshire and is a very interesting and quick read.
Duckfeet
05-26-2009, 09:44 PM
Yeah, I think actually, looking over the thread, we might be talking about two different things: how to deal w/police when you haven't done shit, and how to deal w/them when you have, and when you have incriminating evidence on you...cops aren't always wanting to put people in jail...they've got enough junkies in there already....
What they usually want to know, IHO, is whether or not you have comitted a crime, and if so, anything u say, can and will be used against you...*but* this also gets into *pre* arrest shit, and whether a good lawyer--which I rarely have--is willing to go all the way to trial with you, and can show they were *going* to arrest you anyway, (fwiw, I just heard on the radio that they have overturned the case saying that once you ask for a lawyer, they can't talk to you anymore...it's second to *Miranda* in law that cops hate)Most poor people know it'll really end up in a plea bargain...
I've had a cop who knew me in Louisiana, and had been in same army unit I had, even see a gun in my pocket (after a fight in a bar), and tell me to "put that stupid gun away) when I was sitting in front of my motel room, waiting for more shit to happen, and I actually had a Sheriff's deputy down there who was burglarizing hospital pharmacies, and had a crush on dancer I was pals with, and she'd bring me his dope, and I'd send him the money...and I also usually know if it's *traffic* or *neighborhood* kind of guys, or plain clothes unmarked cars looking for harder shit...
no biggee...unless, of course, it's me seeing the flashing lights in my mirror...and of course, as a California boy who spent much time in the south, and other areas, I find that there is much difference in how people act, depending on neighborhood relations and whether it's big city, or smaller towns...
I agree with you for the most part on this and yet I stand by what I said about saying as little as possible
<snip>
Opiyum
05-26-2009, 10:39 PM
Yeah I don't know why i put that quote there. Really I totally agree with you I was just kinda adding to what you and everyone else is saying. anyhow...
cops aren't always wanting to put people in jail...they've got enough junkies in there already....Yeah that and all the paper work involved. They aren't always as gung ho on throwing you in jail as you some think (as someone was saying earlier). Not that they will be looking the other way but sometimes they will just take your shit and send you on your way, which in fact, has happened to me far more times than I have been taken in to holding.
Theres a lot that can go into it....Maybe there shift is just about over and they wanna get home so they let you go, maybe its just laziness or maybe they think its your first time encountering a cop in such a way and they think the close call is enough to scare you from coming back. There's a million reasons you can get let go. Far more than there are reasons for them to take you in really.
upstate_007
05-27-2009, 07:48 AM
here's a suggestion: next time a cop asks you something that you don't wanna answer--especially if you're innocent-- kindly tell him/her that you aren't going to answer his questions because you feel WE ALL need to exercise our rights whenever we can or we might lose them. nothing personal and do what you must officer.
And if you're in good ol' NYC and pull that shit......you can expect a maglite to the temple. Because cops just absolutely adore smartass kids and their "rights".
All that technical legal shit works real well in movies and TV. The real world is a much different place.
Have you ever gotten punched in the nose by a cop for "speaking out of turn"?
Have you ever tried to deny permission to search your vehicle only to have them cuff you for resisting arrest and then "finding" a bag of weed on you that gives them probable cause to go ahead and search your car?
Have you had your money, dope and watch stolen by the cops?
That's the world of law enforcement I know.
Sure, not all are like that. But there are more than enough who are.
The Paregoric Man
05-28-2009, 12:57 PM
Have you ever gotten punched in the nose by a cop for "speaking out of turn"?
Have you ever tried to deny permission to search your vehicle only to have them cuff you for resisting arrest and then "finding" a bag of weed on you that gives them probable cause to go ahead and search your car?
Have you had your money, dope and watch stolen by the cops?
That's the world of law enforcement I know.
Dude the treatment you are getting is because the police know 100% you are in a social and economic situation that will never allow you to have a private defense attorney.
I mean most people think I am hispanic and I have never had bad treatment even from small town Texas cops because I carry myself like a professional and dress at least upper middle class. I don't even carry ID if I have no reason for having it like driving because thats my right as a American, never been hauled in like some people I know.
Because looking at me and talking to me the cop doesn't know I am safe to fuck with, and he likely doesn't want to take the risk. I also am polite and slightly bewildered as to why you would think I did anything. Act like your grandmother if the cops stopped her and accused her of being Pablo Escobar, the whole thing is silly and absurd. NO SLANG, do an impression of Alan Shore from The Practice.
It works, but if the cops stop you in a DARE shirt all dirty and you cop a pissed stance from the beginning and then say stuff like "yo man I ain't here copping, I don't have any shit or rigs on me go ahead and search!" they know you can be fucked with.
Pretend you are a bank VP looking for this new restaurant that opened, you see some cops you have no reason to feel nervous. And if a area is so bad and hot find a new hook up.
hovadagod
05-28-2009, 01:09 PM
" I don't even carry ID if I have no reason for having it like driving because thats my right as a American"
I ABSOLUTELY LOVE THIS!!!
Don't try this at home but once I was pulled over without license or ID or insurance proof or registration. I basically told the cop it is my right to travel as an american and I do not need to carry a license. Granted I was in a state that doesn't have a statute requiring you to present Identification. They tried to find me in their computer but I was out of state and didn't give them the addresss that was on my license. They said 'this is why you carry your license..get out of here'. Also, they smelled weed in my car as I had just finished a joint.
The key to this was that they thought I was a some kind of lawyer or something. I asked them for their business cards and badge numbers and one of them refused to give it to me. Make these cops squirm. They are all bonded so there is a big $$ sign over each cops head. If htey fuck up, an insurance company will pay for their mess. Ask a cop if he is bonded (or ask a judge this:) and see if the cop even knows about it.
What Paragoric Man said is totally true the way I see it. The cops smell fear. If you know that you have rights, the cops will sense this. I convinced these cops that I was allowed to drive without a license after smoking a J driving 55 in a 30. I told them it's in the constitution. Actually..what I said was that I am not conducting any commerce and therefore do not have my ID when driving b/c I have a constitutional right to travel. I said that I only carry ID when I am conducting commerce b/c when I am not conducting commerce I am not a 'driver' but a 'traveler'.
These cops were totally bewildered. I know it sounds hard to believe but it's totally true. Maybe if the cops had more time or patience I would have been arrested but all they did was threaten me until they saw that I wouldn't fold (and just dish over the ID). They actually conducted a sobriety check b/c of hte smell but before I complied with them I told them that I am acting under protest and duress and to plaese take note that I have not consented to ANYTHING and am obeying you merely b/c you are carrying a gun and I am not.
PLEASE DON'T TRY THIS unless you don't mind spending a bit of time in jail.
The Paregoric Man
05-28-2009, 04:15 PM
Dude you've got more guts then me lol, no state has a statute requiring you to carry ID when not driving and then you must have a drivers license of course. If a cop tells you its illegal not to carry ID ask the name of the law it flat does not exist, the supreme court case Nevada vs. Hibel was NOT about carrying ID, it was about verbal identification and whether giving a cop your name was self incriminating. This applies to America BTW, no clue about other nations.
Cops aren't stupid but they are busy and they initially go for obvious signs, making sure you don't look like a law breaker is important in avoiding attention. Is it right? No, but its reality.
When I was flying into Miami once from Trinidad I was dressed casual but nice, like you would if you were working an average office job. Dude next to me was my same age but white, American citizen too. I was talking to him but I was stunned at what he was wearing, a goddamn Bob Marley shirt and a Rasta socking cap along with a weed leaf pendant. He said he can wear what he wants and I wished him luck.
I walked through customs with have a nice one and a nod and a smile while they were going through his bags with gloves on, I still to this day wonder if he was a decoy lol.
The point is I had plenty of pharms that aren't OTC in the US on me, yet he got the big search. The image you give the world is everything.
hovadagod
05-28-2009, 04:44 PM
Yea...There was no identification statute but I did identify myself anyway.
StackBundles
05-28-2009, 05:41 PM
Regarding The Pen, The County, The Psyche Ward or wherever in the fuck else people might find themselves someday...You can read books about it all you want...Unless you've been there you'll never know. Read a book about boxing then step in the ring with Floyd Mayweather Jr. then tell me how far that book got you. You can't buy a plane ticket there and all of the Lockup:Raw episodes in the world aren't gonna help.
In regards to talking to The Jake. Becoming a Lawyer, Paralegal or whatever in the fuck else is all fine and dandy...Then you know your shit, you have a degree, and also a job. But reading a couple pages out of your States Compiled Acts or Rules of Court really ain't gonna do shit when you get pulled over on the Interstate with 20 jabs and a stolen pistol hidden in your sub-woofer box. If you can't survive through that situation then you probably aren't gonna get a second chance. I'm gonna have my license and registration ready and seem real interested in what Johnny Law has to say. When he hands me my ticket for whatever infraction I may or may not have committed I'm gonna' say "Thank You", and wish him a nice day.
Duck said it all the best...Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. And, like I said, you can suppose and imagine and what if all you want but until you're in that sitch'...
I also believe that people should know their rights and invoke them accordingly and properly. You don't need to be douche-tard to assert your rights...A simple "I'm sorry officer, but I am in a hurry," will go a long way.
Anyways...I'm a little scatter-brained right now and this is getting longer then I planned on...So I'm out for now.
Coddfish
05-28-2009, 07:12 PM
And if you're in good ol' NYC and pull that shit......you can expect a maglite to the temple. Because cops just absolutely adore smartass kids and their "rights".
All that technical legal shit works real well in movies and TV. The real world is a much different place.
Have you ever gotten punched in the nose by a cop for "speaking out of turn"?
Have you ever tried to deny permission to search your vehicle only to have them cuff you for resisting arrest and then "finding" a bag of weed on you that gives them probable cause to go ahead and search your car?
Have you had your money, dope and watch stolen by the cops?
That's the world of law enforcement I know.
Sure, not all are like that. But there are more than enough who are.
what can i say? i won't pull that "shit" (ie., asserting my consitutionally recognized rights) in NYC. you need to move. try new hampshire. you should also carry a streaming voice recorder. what you shouldn't do is just accept tyranny.
what can i say? i won't pull that "shit" (ie., asserting my consitutionally recognized rights) in NYC. you need to move. try new hampshire. you should also carry a streaming voice recorder. what you shouldn't do is just accept tyranny.
It's worth noting that most uniform cops are blue collar guys.They do a really dangerous,draining job and the last thing they wanna hear is some guy talking about his rights.
Bottom line is fighting tyranny is great,but getting to go home is better.
hovadagod
05-28-2009, 08:43 PM
If you assert your rights you usually don't get arrested unless the cop can tell you don't know what you are talking about. It's when you think the best thing to do is to help the cops investigate your person that you will run into problems.
Duckfeet
05-28-2009, 09:51 PM
No place I've ever lived...must be a new breed of cops...what they *really* are going to think is that you are a middle class white kid without a lot of experience with police, if you're lucky they'll laugh: they are actually *used* to people who think this way, and may let you slide if they are abolutely convinced you don't have anything...but their *first* thought will be, if you don't have drugs, then why worry about a search...and if you are a well behaved kid, why no i.d.???
...people who've been around know the score...every case is different...once a cop stops you he has all the power, and you have none...legalities, and constitutional rights are something they usually know, and we think we know...but streets are different...what cops want is a bit of respect for who they are and what they do, and generally if you haven't done anything, you'll be on your way...what they do, if you get stupid, or they presume you've comitted a crime, depends on the cop...cops know that most of us aren't going to "sue them" or fight out the constitution in a criminal trial...
People know their rights, and cops know we know, and most of them could give a shit less about all that, and just want to find out if we have done anything they need to investigate...again, sitting around in jail, this is also a very popular topic, and everybody on the cellblock knows exactly what the rest of us should have done not to have gone there...
As I've said before, this is the online world, and people can sift thru bullshit, and recognize what has the ring of truth and what doesn't...I myself recommend people be wary but polite, and act as the circumstances and your own guilt or innocence dictate.
If you have commtted a crime and get busted, clam up and go to jail, and then call bondsman...get a good lawyer if you can afford one, and you might actually avoid doing any serious time...If you can't afford a good lawyer, you'll be assigned a public defender, or court appointed private attorney to defend you...
Good lawyer, then you might beat the case, and if cops behaved outrageously, and you can prove it, you *might* do less time, or even get off scot free...most people plea bargain because the stakes of going to trial are too high...and most lawyers, unless you have lots of money, thinks its funny when we bring up "police brutality" or "entrapment" or "fruit of the poisonous tree" or "illegal search..." As if cops didn't know all this, and ways around it...
If ya is in da game , know wat da fuck your doin......I never done anyfing wivout knowin da consequences....And da Uk law bible is "archbold" and i;m fuckin in it....I musta read dat book everyday of ma life in jail......And it stood me in good stead....
Just know wat your doin and educate yaself....But like upstate says, ya got a cop who dont giv a fuck and wants ya to provoke him, just so he can nick ya, well den its best to just say "hold on, i fink we started off on da wrong foot here, may we start again officer...I'm not lookin for any trouble...How can i help you"....
Its called a "judgment call"....Like duckfeet says, "when to hold em an when to fold em"......
chopstix
05-28-2009, 10:16 PM
Yep, judgment call. I've been cuffed, face down on the ground with a can full of cooked dope next to me.
Cop: "If you've got crack, you're going to jail. Do you have anything sharp on you?"
Me: "yes, syringes in the bag" (felony in ca, twice I've admitted to rig possession but never convicted)
Cop: "Anything else?"
Me: "Just what's in the can" (lying, I had another bag in my sock)
He dumped the dope and let me go...
I tell selective truths to cops when I got shit on me (hopefully well stashed), and so far, I've only gone to jail for possession twice, but never convicted..
I'm always really nice to cops unless I'm shitty drunk and they fuck with my pool game, or I know I'm fucked and it's time to take the fifth..
edit: shit, I've been arrested three times for possession, always small amts. tho: once dropped cos I wasn't holding the dope, just a rig; once was an illegal search on only a dirty spoon and once the cops didn't "field test" the dope so it was dropped in court..
Yeah man i hear ya.....
One ting i learnt very young(bout 16) was sittin in a cell finkin "shit if only i had done dis or dat"....Fuckin regrets coz i was too lazy/stoopid watever.....
Now even when just scorin personal from da gypsy houses out here dey "used "to look at me funny wen i started to undo ma trousers "hey amigo que pasa con pantalones"?......"hombre yo no gusto da carcel, es en me maletta".....
Its no big deal, some tissue and just cheek da shit...And da only way i'm gettin busted for anyting personal dats not in ma ma house is if its gone to far on da street and i'm fightin butt naked in a cell and even den i'm gonna try an swallow ma ting....."wheres deres a will deres a way"......Use ya brains and dont be scared...Panickin is wat fucks heads da most....
Deep breath and fink, slowly....
upstate_007
05-29-2009, 07:36 AM
It's worth noting that most uniform cops are blue collar guys.They do a really dangerous,draining job and the last thing they wanna hear is some guy talking about his rights.
Bottom line is fighting tyranny is great,but getting to go home is better.
Exactly.
SHELLEY
05-29-2009, 07:44 AM
Yea...There was no identification statute but I did identify myself anyway.
identification statute????????
really????? in america, they can force you to have ID at all times?????
REALLY?????????????? and they can take you to jail for not having ID?????????
"your papers! show me your papers!" :rolleyes:
EleusisII
05-29-2009, 08:28 AM
If you assert your rights you usually don't get arrested unless the cop can tell you don't know what you are talking about
Or more likely, they'll make sure to extra thorough with everything, so the case stands really strong in court.
hovadagod
05-29-2009, 08:32 AM
Or more likely, they'll make sure to extra thorough with everything, so the case stands really strong in court.
The thing is that they usually don't have a case. It is hard to build a case; especially if the defendant won't incriminate himself. But you're right. You have to weight the factors. If you have a gun and heroin on you the cop will be able to make shit up and people will believe him.
Here is the Supreme Law of the land regarding failure to identify. Someone mentioned the case above.
Supreme Court Case Nevada v Hiibel
Petitioner Hiibel was arrested and convicted in a Nevada court for refusing to identify himself to a police officer during an investigative stop involving a reported assault. Nevada’s “stop and identify” statute requires a person detained by an officer under suspicious circumstances to identify himself. The state intermediate appellate court affirmed, rejecting Hiibel’s argument that the state law’s application to his case violated the Fourth and Fifth Amendments. The Nevada Supreme Court affirmed.
Held: Petitioner’s conviction does not violate his Fourth Amendment rights or the Fifth Amendment’s prohibition on self-incrimination. Pp. 3—13.
And a video of the traffic stop...ie. what not to do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APynGWWqD8Y&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo%2Egoogle%2Ecom%2Fvideosear ch%3Fclient%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%2Dus%26q%3Dfailure %2520to%2520identify%2520statute%26oe%3DUTF%2D8&feature=player_embedded
You can tell from the video that police REALLY NEED that ID. Without having your ID, they proceed VERY CAUTIOUSLY.
Yeah man i hear ya.....
One ting i learnt very young(bout 16) was sittin in a cell finkin "shit if only i had done dis or dat"....Fuckin regrets coz i was too lazy/stoopid watever.....
Now even when just scorin personal from da gypsy houses out here dey "used "to look at me funny wen i started to undo ma trousers "hey amigo que pasa con pantalones"?......"hombre yo no gusto da carcel, es en me maletta".....
Its no big deal, some tissue and just cheek da shit...And da only way i'm gettin busted for anyting personal dats not in ma ma house is if its gone to far on da street and i'm fightin butt naked in a cell and even den i'm gonna try an swallow ma ting....."wheres deres a will deres a way"......Use ya brains and dont be scared...Panickin is wat fucks heads da most....
Deep breath and fink, slowly....
Raz has got to the heart of the matter.....FEAR.Anyone who's not scared when dealing with cops is stupid or sad.Hell,the cops can take your freedom and that always scares me senseless.
Obviously after you've been through the "dance" a few times it gets easier.
hovadagod
05-29-2009, 08:44 AM
Raz has got to the heart of the matter.....FEAR.Anyone who's not scared when dealing with cops is stupid or sad.Hell,the cops can take your freedom and that always scares me senseless.
Obviously after you've been through the "dance" a few times it gets easier.
It's true. The cops depend on fear to make their cases. This fear is what leads people to incriminate themselves. I mean...sometimes you can talk your way out of things but generally, if you are really guilty o something, don't help the cop investigate your person.
In that situation that I described when I was pulled over, I was very pleasant (and high) and I did identify myself. The cops couldn't find my "person" in the computer so they let me go. I mean...without an ID it is very hard to make a lawful arrest of a human being. And false arrest is VERY serious.
comptonking
05-29-2009, 08:52 AM
I only read through the first page, but i just got out of court and my conduct toward the officer made %100 the differance for me, i was rude as fuck, tried slamming the door on his foot and told him to get the fuck out of my house (which is my right, but i got penalized for it). I learned be firm but respectful its hard to do when cops are complete bitches but it's worth it in the long run, unless you didnt do anything wrong and know it then u can talk shit (which i've done many a time :) )
hovadagod
05-29-2009, 09:00 AM
I only read through the first page, but i just got out of court and my conduct toward the officer made %100 the differance for me, i was rude as fuck, tried slamming the door on his foot and told him to get the fuck out of my house (which is my right, but i got penalized for it). I learned be firm but respectful its hard to do when cops are complete bitches but it's worth it in the long run, unless you didnt do anything wrong and know it then u can talk shit (which i've done many a time :) )
I find that to be the hardest part. You have to affirm your rights without dishonoring the cop. The cops are human beings ya know. If you can talk TO them about your rights they will realize that it isn't in their interest to violate them. It is basically trial and error. You've gotta get comfortable assering your rights when you don't have 10 bunnys before taking the plunge. But if you have shit on you and it isn't perfectly hidden, and you consent to a search....I think it's pretty dumb. Refusing consent to a search does not give the cop the right to bring dogs in per se. There must be more probable cause. When I was pulled over and I didn't show ID, I believe that had I show ID they would have dragged me out of the car and arrested me or at least gotten dogs first. But showing ID is some sort of waiver or consent. It's like when you show your ID you are telling the officer that you are not traveling as provided by the right to travel in the constitution BUT you are involved in commerce (evidenced by the license). In essence, by showing your license you are telling the cop that you have waived your right to unabridged travel and instead, you play the Motor Vehicle statute game. Once you tell the cop that you play the game (ID), the cop can bust you for failing to follow the rules.
This is all theory. I don't think there is ANY case law involving this concept but maybe we can change that.
The Paregoric Man
05-29-2009, 01:21 PM
I find that to be the hardest part. You have to affirm your rights without dishonoring the cop. The cops are human beings ya know. If you can talk TO them about your rights they will realize that it isn't in their interest to violate them. It is basically trial and error. You've gotta get comfortable assering your rights when you don't have 10 bunnys before taking the plunge. But if you have shit on you and it isn't perfectly hidden, and you consent to a search....I think it's pretty dumb. Refusing consent to a search does not give the cop the right to bring dogs in per se. There must be more probable cause. When I was pulled over and I didn't show ID, I believe that had I show ID they would have dragged me out of the car and arrested me or at least gotten dogs first. But showing ID is some sort of waiver or consent. It's like when you show your ID you are telling the officer that you are not traveling as provided by the right to travel in the constitution BUT you are involved in commerce (evidenced by the license). In essence, by showing your license you are telling the cop that you have waived your right to unabridged travel and instead, you play the Motor Vehicle statute game. Once you tell the cop that you play the game (ID), the cop can bust you for failing to follow the rules.
This is all theory. I don't think there is ANY case law involving this concept but maybe we can change that.
That method won't work in all circumstances, you got lucky the cops you were pulled over by were easily dazzled.
The reason they are reluctant to do anything without running an ID is lack of information, is this individual safe to fuck with? What are his past charges and convictions? How would it look in the media if I beat this guy senseless and plant a baggie of heroin and it turns out he is a pastor without a speeding ticket?
Duckfeet
05-29-2009, 01:37 PM
Dealing with cops is no different than learning how to act in any other situation: you learn thru experience, what works and what doesn't work...presuming that some sort of secret knowledge of "our rights" will change everything is exactly what the people who go to prison for not paying income tax think...that their knowledge and belief in their interpretation of the constitution will trump reality...and many are "true believers," and are willing to go to jail for their beliefs, etc....
Not me, I know how to deal with cops, and anybody who's dealt with'em a few times also knows...anything else is just bubblegum...kind of like reading books on boxing, thinking you know all about footwork, and timing, and how to keep your chin down, and what really works, and secret punches, etc....Then you get in a fight on the street, and realize you know nothing, and get your ass stomped....
Hard guys know that every situation, every cop, every legal avenue, is situational, and act accordingly...if I"m in a sportcoat and tie, and a cop pulls me over, and I'm clean as a whistle, yeah, I can refuse all kinds of shit, but why bother? They just want to get me rolling anyway...
All my *bad* experiences w/cops--and I've had some of the worst, down in South Louisiana, where they were a law unto themselves--were when I was in the underculture of bikers and junkies, and they know that they can do whatever they please, and it brings out the worst in them, but their notions are also usually correct: (that we were up to "no good...") A cop, who had just arrested my girl, and was tossing the trailer we were crashing in, found some spoons w/rinse in them, a bunch of syringes, some script pads, and finally threw me up against the wall to search, and I knew him, so I brought up that what was it with all this coming into houses w/out a warrant, searching me w/out asking, or something like that...and he just laughed, and told me "tell it to the jury", knowing it wouldn't get that far, and he was right, and he also mentioned that jurys look at the whole picture, and me and my old lady were already notorious in that town: that's why all the cops knew us, btw...and he found some pills, and I went to jail too, and the lawyer laughed when I brought up the search situation, and asked me what world I was living in?...
It's not like in the movies, and no online forum is going to give you any useful info about dealing w/the police: you stay in junky life, and you'll learn how to deal with them soon enough, how to deal w/jail, and how to get prison tattoos that are worth a shit...
JayTrizzle
05-29-2009, 05:25 PM
Ok, since i JUST got a ticket from a pretty cool guy (local sherrif, we've had the run-in a few times before), got popped for "speeding" (bull shit since i saw the dude like a mile beforehand and was going UNDER the posted speed limit, it was one of those changes at a neighborhood type deals), lisence was suspended, and i had NO insurance in the car (i HAD insurance though) and NO ID, and I could TELL he was gonna TOTALLY let me leave until I said i didn't have an ID, only reason he wrote me a ticket was because of the license being suspended, didn't arrest me, and told me straight up that if it would have been a local cop, not having an ID would have made them extremely hostile, for the reasons stated above, without an id they don't know if you're a preacher or a child molester or a serial killer with a head behind the seat.
Coddfish
05-30-2009, 10:30 AM
experience or no, being afraid of actually having rights (ie., willflly giving them up) is not good and not sustainable. it makes all the sense in the world to be "nice" to cops, but advocating that we should all be afraid and just do what cops tell us is kinda pathetic and goes against what being human is. it stands to reason that things will simply get worse and worse, at least at a faster clip than they are now. i saw recently where there is something like 1000 citizens for every le. i think the ratio is a bit lower around here, but even so. . . . we should be afraid of them?
SOME of these guys get into copping to do the right things, although i believe most these days don't. trampling basic human freedoms will eventually result in a push back against these people in uniforms. a cursory glance at world history shows that it's likely unavoidable. when it happens, i, for one, will not be urging people to lie down for the "authorities."
we're all gonna die. we might as well have a thing or two worth "spending" our time and even our lives on. liberty seems as good to me as anything else i might choose. that and my dogs.:) safety, on the other hand, doesn't seem like a very good one. not a very fun one, anyway.
yes, it's an educated gamble to stand up for one's rights. but when that person KNOWS he's right, it get's a bit easier.
experience or no, being afraid of actually having rights (ie., willflly giving them up) is not good and not sustainable. it makes all the sense in the world to be "nice" to cops, but advocating that we should all be afraid and just do what cops tell us is kinda pathetic and goes against what being human is. it stands to reason that things will simply get worse and worse, at least at a faster clip than they are now.
Trust me, you showing just how sovereign and free you are to a cop when he's trying to arrest you for drugs is going to do very little in changing things for the better for those against heavy police pressure. It will probably make it worse.
Reform can't come from your average junkie telling a cop to go fuck himself, unfortunately.
Duckfeet
05-30-2009, 10:51 AM
I think this thread was a lot more about what to do if you're in a tight spot, are up to know good, and get caught w/dope or other shit in your car...citizens not doing anything don't have these problems, and cops know it...and again, once you've dealt with cops in bad situations a time or to, you learn they're all different...nobody's talking about giving up freedom or being afraid: we just sharing some hard-earned experince, and wouldn't want somebody who *hasn't* been around a bit, to get exposed to shit, and actually believe that cops are dissuaded by somebody who "actually "knows their rights."
They *expect* you to know your rights: it's only in the movies that most of the shit being used as examples actually happens...it's not like "*OH!, I get it, I can *refuse* a search...or OH, WOW!, I can *refuse* to give them i.d.!"
It's not real life: that's like saying: "Here's how to deal with dope dealers: don't act afraid, and never give them your money upfront!" and people will all start acting unafraid and not giving up money, etc...it's a joke...oh o.k., I've *been* acting really afraid, thanks for the tip...when is it *good* to be afraid in life? Nowhere I've been. Nobody *acts* frightened...they *are* frightened and it shows...
It's total bullshit...cops are all different, and every situation is different, and if if by some chance, you are just passing thru a neighborhood, where shit is going down, and get stopped, you show'em yer license, and yer on yer way...if, however, you just bought an ounce of heroin, and it's in your trunk, and you get stopped, and they *know* it and ask to search, of *course* you say no, and get ready to go to jail, and if they see *anything* they can use as probable cause--and they will--they'll search it anyway...
Every situation is different, and to pretend to some kind of secret knowledge of how to act w/the police, well...not in any situation I've been in...you size up your chances, be friendly, give as much info as you can, and hope for the best....
Realism rules, in the dope world...not fantasy...
experience or no, being afraid of actually having rights (ie., willflly giving them up) is not good and not sustainable. it makes all the sense in the world to be "nice" to cops, but advocating that we should all be afraid and just do what cops tell us is kinda pathetic and goes against what being human is. it stands to reason that things will simply get worse and worse, at least at a faster clip than they are now. i saw recently where there is something like 1000 citizens for every le. i think the ratio is a bit lower around here, but even so. . . . we should be afraid of them?
SOME of these guys get into copping to do the right things, although i believe most these days don't. trampling basic human freedoms will eventually result in a push back against these people in uniforms. a cursory glance at world history shows that it's likely unavoidable. when it happens, i, for one, will not be urging people to lie down for the "authorities."
we're all gonna die. we might as well have a thing or two worth "spending" our time and even our lives on. liberty seems as good to me as anything else i might choose. that and my dogs.:) safety, on the other hand, doesn't seem like a very good one. not a very fun one, anyway.
yes, it's an educated gamble to stand up for one's rights. but when that person KNOWS he's right, it get's a bit easier.
Coddfish
05-30-2009, 04:05 PM
I think this thread was a lot more about what to do if you're in a tight spot, are up to know good, and get caught w/dope or other shit in your car...citizens not doing anything don't have these problems, and cops know it...and again, once you've dealt with cops in bad situations a time or to, you learn they're all different...nobody's talking about giving up freedom or being afraid: we just sharing some hard-earned experince, and wouldn't want somebody who *hasn't* been around a bit, to get exposed to shit, and actually believe that cops are dissuaded by somebody who "actually "knows their rights."
They *expect* you to know your rights: it's only in the movies that most of the shit being used as examples actually happens...it's not like "*OH!, I get it, I can *refuse* a search...or OH, WOW!, I can *refuse* to give them i.d.!"
It's not real life: that's like saying: "Here's how to deal with dope dealers: don't act afraid, and never give them your money upfront!" and people will all start acting unafraid and not giving up money, etc...it's a joke...oh o.k., I've *been* acting really afraid, thanks for the tip...when is it *good* to be afraid in life? Nowhere I've been. Nobody *acts* frightened...they *are* frightened and it shows...
It's total bullshit...cops are all different, and every situation is different, and if if by some chance, you are just passing thru a neighborhood, where shit is going down, and get stopped, you show'em yer license, and yer on yer way...if, however, you just bought an ounce of heroin, and it's in your trunk, and you get stopped, and they *know* it and ask to search, of *course* you say no, and get ready to go to jail, and if they see *anything* they can use as probable cause--and they will--they'll search it anyway...
Every situation is different, and to pretend to some kind of secret knowledge of how to act w/the police, well...not in any situation I've been in...you size up your chances, be friendly, give as much info as you can, and hope for the best....
Realism rules, in the dope world...not fantasy...have you actually watched the movie linked at the beginning of the thread? did you watch the second part? it really happens, and there's a police chief there telling you it does. let's see. there's martha stewart. dana stubblefield. john mctiernan. marion jones. foxy brown. what do these celebrities all have in common? they all shoulda kept their mouth shut when the cops came to talk to them, because they were all charged with lying to police. not insider trading or steroid use, but lying to police. i wonder if they think this shit is "fantasy."
have you heard of steve bierfeldt? he's a ron paul staffer. when you have time, listen to this recording he made in the st. louis airport. he didn't get beat up. he didn't get planted with dope or thrown in prison on made up charges, but he did stand up for himself. and he didn't have shit on him at the time. if they are luvky enough to still have jobs, the dickheads who harassed him might think twice about stepping all over someone next time. and mr. bierfeldt might have inadvertantly saved someone from being arrested for drug possession in an airport. THIS is what i'm talking about, and there are hundreds more doing the same thing, and the number is growing. http://www.dailynewscaster.com/2009/04/02/audio-full-version-steve-bierfeldt-detained-and-questioned-by-st-louis-tsa/comment-page-2/
had he answered any of their quetions, he'd likely be facing charges for lying to federal agents. "$4700? looks like $4704 to me, son. you just lied to us."
but people can answer all the cops' questions if they want to. that's cool and all.
anyway, i'm not changing your mind, and you sure as hell aren't changing mine. so i'm done.
hovadagod
05-30-2009, 04:15 PM
SWIM actually has done it the wrong way before and lied to a fed. This is after SWIM told him he won't talk without a lawyer. He continued to ask 'so you got some illegal schedule II shit shipped to you huh? (Had some evidence of some kind of order but SWIM knew this was well in the past based on the evidence presented) SWIM answered, 'I never RECEIVED anything....it never came"...ooops. FED quickly said, that's a martha steward crime right there...you sure you want to lie to feds? SWIM was like....'well then I just won't talk without a lawyer. Please leave my property.' The FED was like I thought so.
Moral of the story is that SWIM should have kicked the feds off his property immediately but he was scared b/c they had evidence of some crime. However, SWIM should have let a lawyer deal with that shit. He was in no position to discuss evidence of a crime that he might have committed thereby creating more evidence.
Coddfish
05-30-2009, 04:25 PM
SWIM actually has done it the wrong way before and lied to a fed. This is after SWIM told him he won't talk without a lawyer. He continued to ask 'so you got some illegal schedule II shit shipped to you huh? (Had some evidence of some kind of order but SWIM knew this was well in the past based on the evidence presented) SWIM answered, 'I never RECEIVED anything....it never came"...ooops. FED quickly said, that's a martha steward crime right there...you sure you want to lie to feds? SWIM was like....'well then I just won't talk without a lawyer. Please leave my property.' The FED was like I thought so.
Moral of the story is that SWIM should have kicked the feds off his property immediately but he was scared b/c they had evidence of some crime. However, SWIM should have let a lawyer deal with that shit. He was in no position to discuss evidence of a crime that he might have committed thereby creating more evidence.
swim was quite lucky, i'd say. thanks for sharing. it's tough being presented with evidence like that. but saying "i don't know anything about it" is MUCH worse than politely asking for a lawyer before a person says anything.
hovadagod
05-30-2009, 04:28 PM
swim was quite lucky, i'd say. thanks for sharing. it's tough being presented with evidence like that. but saying "i don't know anything about it" is MUCH worse than politely asking for a lawyer before a person says anything.
SWIM has been quite lucky too many times.
I know. It was hard for swim. He actually said..'I never RECEIVED it implying that it never arrived' but sort of admitting that 'it' existed. Waay worse. They keep pushing even after you ask for a lawyer. Until you get arrested they dont take it seriously when you ask for a lawyer but you do have the right.
StackBundles
05-30-2009, 07:58 PM
Who in the fuck is advocating getting on your knees in front of some cop? No one is advocating fear. You are totally missing the point of what people are trying to get across. Believe me, I've partaken in my share of civil disobedience.
Coddfish
05-30-2009, 08:10 PM
Raz has got to the heart of the matter.....FEAR.Anyone who's not scared when dealing with cops is stupid or sad.Hell,the cops can take your freedom and that always scares me senseless.
Obviously after you've been through the "dance" a few times it gets easier.
Duckfeet
05-30-2009, 10:59 PM
It's been a good thread...a little touchy at times, but that's cool...I figured it would descend into personal attacks, like these threads usually do, but you never did that, and I tried not to...I think we both know it's a serious situation, that cops really can fuck up your whole life, if they want, and the stakes are so high, and we all have different opinions, and often, on here, we defend them passionately, but all in all, this thread had good advice, and certainly room for thought...I do tend to think, like many on here, that sometimes, no matter what we do, we are without defense againsts government, and there aren't any *bad* ideas on here...and honestly, much as I *hate* to admit it, a lot has to do with my age, I think: I was a lot tougher and more standup against cops, when I was younger, and I've been beaten, by bad ones, and actually have a felony, for dilaudids, which weren't in my pocket when they searched me, so I know just how crazy it can get...
In any case, good thread, best wishes...
<snip>
anyway, i'm not changing your mind, and you sure as hell aren't changing mine. so i'm done.
hovadagod
05-31-2009, 12:04 PM
Who in the fuck is advocating getting on your knees in front of some cop? No one is advocating fear. You are totally missing the point of what people are trying to get across. Believe me, I've partaken in my share of civil disobedience.
The idea is to assert your rights without partaking in what looks like civil disobedience. Look at Blackdog's story in the NYheat thread...he did a great job without even getting into any rights and crap. It's about controlling the frame and using your rights to stay on topics that aren't incriminating.
"thanks officer...I know you're just doing your job and all but for about 7 years now I have always spoken with police, IRS etc. through a lawyer. I just don't like communicating directly with the government unless I have to and the Constitution actually gives me this right....Why I love this country so much. And please realize that I appreciate your contribution officer and I am most gracious. But if I am not being detained officer, would you mind if I get on my way? I mean...if you think I have committed a crime...do telll (chuckle) but the wifey's got supper ready and ya' know how they get if ya' let the potatoes get cold! You'd think G.E. hadn't invented the microwave....jeeze. Ok now officer. You have a good day."
That isn't a conversation that will make the cop think of you as civilly disobedient but you still assert your rights. The cop may even respect you.
I tell selective truths to cops when I got shit on me.
Yeah this has worked out for me one or two times...
One time a buddy and mine were copping weed in the ghetto, and there was a pig patrollin'..
They weren't close up to me, but I had a feeling they had seen us go cop and get back in the car..
I'd say they were about 3 blocks away, but kept following me, until finally I hit a red light and they caught up and I saw the flashing lights...
There was one female cop and she just said gimme both ur lisences and Ima check for warrants...If you've got anything on you tell me now.
So my friend adam who had two 20 sacks handed her one of them, and prior to us getting stopped he put the other one underneath the seat.
Again, we both had a strong feeling that she KNEW we had copped something, so to sit there and say we don't have anything would be an insult...anyways, long story short, she came back with our lisences, told us to find better things to do with our time, and let us drive away.
We rolled a fat blunt with that other 20 on the way home :D
Yeah, that was a good move in that situation, Ryan, but weed is a whole different animal altogether. Really, you should handle being solicited by the cops when you're rolling dirty with heroin much differently than if you simply have weed.
With weed, honesty can really help a lot, because a lot of cops in the ghetto aren't going to give a shit about it...especially if you're straight up with them. Haven't you ever seen cops?! :P
hovadagod
05-31-2009, 01:34 PM
I agree that in the ghetto you should handle weed differently but in a perfect world it would all be the same. The goal should be to prevent any kind of search and to act accordingly. So theoretically, if everything is equal (other than the drug you have on you), you should act the same in either situation. But obviously it is not a perfect world so considering the worst case scenario (getting searched) can go a long way.
Bottom line is that how you conduct yourself should be determined by the context of the situation but with that said I believe that if people exercised their rights more frequently, a lot less arrests would go down.
yeah, in an ideal world, ceteris paribus etc etc, it should all be handled the same. But, in the ghetto, things are different. Especially weed and heroin in relation to police.
StackBundles
05-31-2009, 02:16 PM
Imma' hit a couple of points here and be done with this convo. Not because I'm frustrated or anything. I agree with DF, this has been a good thread.
First, regarding the "fear" factor...Nick wasn't advocating laying down for "the man"...He was merely stating that a little bit of fear is normal when dealing with people who can exercise control over you and snatch your freedom on a whim. Fear and paranoia are healthy. In the proper doses. They are part of the human operating system. People who claim to fear nothing are ignorant and wreck less...or lying...or KNOW when they have the upper hand. If a friend on mine upped a loaded pistol in my face as some sort of stupid ass joke and made a crack about shooting me I'd have no problem telling him to squeeze one off...I know it's not gonna' happen. I'd be pissed after wards, but I wouldn't be scared and have the bravado enough to make that statement knowing full well what the outcome is gonna' be.
You gonna' do that when the thugs on the corner push that shit to the side of your dome and demand your wallet? I don't think so...And if you do get dumb and brave, you probably will get ventilated. Fear is gonna' save you...Fear is gona' help you get through that. Along with all of the other chemical processes and million mile an hour thoughts that zip through your brain under duress.
You can't navigate your way through any situation without having complete knowledge of the situation. I could sit around here and kick some law library knowledge about whatever...Constitutional Law, U.C.C., State Rules, Federal Rules of Court, Procedures, I can file writs and motions and briefs with my eyes closed, I know how to write out petitions for any court in the land, Appelate shit...Whatever...Don't mean dick. If a cop wants to bring me to jail, he's going to. I may avoid unnecessary shit when I get to court because I have half a brain, but people thinking that they know their "rights" and are going to assert them when two 'roided up, inner city cops wanna' push a plunger up their ass is asinine...They are gonna get their asses torn sideways. Then maybe they can get some justice.
I'm all about asserting your shit, when appropriate, and correctly. It seems to me like a couple of people got lucky during a traffic stop and think they are Johnny Cochran. That is not directed at anyone, but people need to continue educating themselves if thats the road they are gonna take...
If you think the constitution is gonna' save you...look at the Montana Freeman. They were well within their rights to drive with no license and carry unlicensed firearms. They legally declared themselves sovereign entities before the world court using U.C.C. and Federal Statutes. All of this was legal...legal, legal, legal...They didn't pay taxes...Uncle Sam got sick of that shit. And decided to kill a few. And put a few more in prison.
If you wanna' talk law and legal shit...I'll blow your wig back with some real deal shit that you wouldn't believe even if I told you . The shit is extensive. You'd research it and re-read it a 1000 times to make sure it's real. If you know anything about U.C.C. and what it is there for...
But anyways. Forearm yourselves. Use discretion. Don't get caught slipping. That's the name of the game, not watching some Law and Order episodes and thinking you know procedural law and how to assert your rights.
You know how many people I saw pick up the Prisoner's Self Help Litigation Manual, and random other shit and totally fuck their cases up. The law isn't something to be fucked with unless you know what you are doing.
You don't need a para-legal certificate to keep a digital recorder in your pocket...Or fuck it, a dash cam, like them faggots got. With a remote recording locale, so you can record the happenings in a spot that they can't get to. Done deal. You don't need to know shit...But you still have to deal with every situation as it comes...
Fuck The Police...But I'll still tell Johnny Law to have a nice day.
hovadagod
05-31-2009, 02:23 PM
If you wanna' talk law and legal shit...I'll blow your wig back with some real deal shit that you wouldn't believe even I told you . The shit is extensive. You'd research it and re-read it a 1000 times to make sure it's real. If you know anything anoub U.C.C. and what it is there for...
But anyways. Forearm yourselves. Use discretion. Don't get caught slipping. That's the name of the game, not watching some Law and Order episodes and thinking you know procedureal law and how to assert your rights.
Fuck The Police...But I'll still tell Johnny Law to have a nice day.
So wait...you agree with the Montana Freemen?
What is taught in american law schools is that the U.C.C. only applies to contracts for the trade of goods and mixed goods/services contracts. I agree with much of what you said but can't figure out if you believe the stuff about the U.C.C.
I'm all ears for these wig blowing legal facts, stacks
StackBundles
05-31-2009, 02:45 PM
U.C.C. does in fact deal with trade and commerce...As a citizen of the United States you are contractually bound, by birth, by the signing of your birth certificate = contractually to the United states. Everything you do is done as part of a corporate entity. U.C.C. law does bind citizens.
You are a part of a corporate entity doing business...life...as part of THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA INCORPORATED. All of that shit applies to you.
Can a contract be legally binding when one or more of the parties engaged in said contract are unaware of the terms??? No, legally that contract would be held as non binding. Your birth certificate binds you to The United States. Does it not? Makes you a LEGAL U.S. citizen. Do you have a copy of your original birth certificate? No. Can you get it? No. Can you bind yourself to a contract without knowing the terms? No. Can you declare yourself a sovereign entity LEGALLY and have it stand up to the letter of the law??? Yes. Will the U.S. let it slide? For a little bit. Maybe not. Depends on how much noise you make.
The Freeman were LEGALLY within their rights to do what they did. Then they started fucking up procedurally. The media is gonna spin that shit how they want you to see it. I know the legal theory and basis behind their actions. 100% within the letter and SPIRIT of the law.
Hova...I dig you and you're a pretty cool cat, and obviously you are smart. I'm thinking that maybe you're in pre-law or some shit?? Question what the fuck they tell you.
Go with that...Dig around a bit.
I'mma let this one rest 'cause we could be typing for months...
Duck...I'm not talking about secrets to get out of jail for free...Think about what I just said up there and the ramifications it has on your DAILY reality.
P.S. Hova...We are on the same side of the "civil disobedience" argument, as is DF. Read my earlier posts.
Yeah, that's not what I meant -- I was not asking for a get out of jail free card, but thanks for assuming I'm stupid, lol :). I was actually inquiring about your U.C.C. thoughts and opinions.
StackBundles
05-31-2009, 02:55 PM
Sorry, Duck. I think that you're far from stupid...Your initial post was a little short so I didn't know what angle you were shooting at. I just read a little sarcasm into your post is all...:)
hovadagod
05-31-2009, 04:05 PM
I hear that. It is basically the social contract that we are assumed to have signed (via birth cert.?). I just don't know how far it will get you if you fire all of your senators and treat all 'presentments' like they are goods. They will get you on mail fraud and all sorts of silly crimes. Look at that Reno dude. He really didn't do anything wrong, did he? No real connection with browns even. I just don't think that the UCC can successfully be used in obscure situations.
The theory could be right but judges don't get it and the courts are corporate courts. Idk. I'd really like to see some of this stuff work. I've tried returning traffic tickets and actually refused one and still went on my record. I guess if you've got anything invested in having a clean record you can't be free? Confusing stuff but I've been trying to understand what these guys are saying and if it holds up.
I may be in pre-law and maybe post law and maybe col-slaw but I don't like to talk about it.
Coddfish
05-31-2009, 04:24 PM
It's been a good thread...a little touchy at times, but that's cool...I figured it would descend into personal attacks, like these threads usually do, but you never did that, and I tried not to...I think we both know it's a serious situation, that cops really can fuck up your whole life, if they want, and the stakes are so high, and we all have different opinions, and often, on here, we defend them passionately, but all in all, this thread had good advice, and certainly room for thought...I do tend to think, like many on here, that sometimes, no matter what we do, we are without defense againsts government, and there aren't any *bad* ideas on here...and honestly, much as I *hate* to admit it, a lot has to do with my age, I think: I was a lot tougher and more standup against cops, when I was younger, and I've been beaten, by bad ones, and actually have a felony, for dilaudids, which weren't in my pocket when they searched me, so I know just how crazy it can get...
In any case, good thread, best wishes...
you're right. there have been too many times that "we" were without defense. just think of the poor saps who obama's new "legal regime" will keep in prison. indefinitely. without charge. without crime. without publicity. just disappeared without a trace. and totally legal. that shit's scary.
however, education, technology and numbers. those are all in OUR control. like stacks said, and i think i alluded to, voice recorders and video cameras are the weapons of the time. especially ones that record directly to a remote server. (althought the fucking interenet czar is starting to scare me on that front.) stomping on a person's humanity is wrong, and ALMOST everyone knows it. i'm convinced it's mostly a matter of opening eyes and finding ways for the public to hold douchbags in uniform acountable. after years of frustration, i'm starting to see hope--ie, other people getting as frustrated as i am looking for answers.
there is a swell of disatisfacton growing in the country. i hope it's not wasted in pointless partisan infighting and backbighting. the man thrives on it.
ps. i wasn't really angry when i wrote that bit about changing minds. didn't come off right. i agree that the different viewpoints on here have made me think. still, i'm an idealist at heart. and yet, as a teacher, i've had some of my students become cops. if the cops accept jokers like these, eveyone best be on your toes. there are some very bad, stupid people in uniform who literally can't define what a right is and wouldn't care if they could.
Duckfeet
05-31-2009, 04:41 PM
This is such a good fucking thread. All morning I was thinking of this guy I was in my 1st treatment center back in Louisiana with: a black guy, around my age, and we really hit it off, and were pals, u know how it is in those places, and for both of us it was the "first time," u know, we'd been exposed to any of this shit, and we were both vietnam vets and shit...we were both in our late thirties, etc.
And I was telling him about my life in this town about 100miles away, and he tells me, a little embarassed, that he was police officer in New Iberia, and knew a lot of the people and places where I lived, Morgan City...and we thought it was kind of funny, how different we both were: I had been in both the new and the old jail there and had shot a black guy, and all kinds of shit, and we did once talk about something along these lines: I was asking why cops hated bikers so much, and he was telling me this and that, but all I remember was him saying, basically, that "cops are people too, and have bad days!" etc...only thing I remember that come out of this was me thinking about it over the years, and wishing I had said: "Yeah, but when cops have bad days, they can fuck up your whole damn life, or even end it..." That's the problem: they have *so* much fucking power, and most of the time, IMO, are pretty fair about the whole thing, in a tough and dangerous job. But it's the unpredictability of how they'll act, that makes us so wary...and totally little con men, too. haha...
But sometimes, big city cops, that are exposed daily to predatory crazy junkies--like me--just seem to turn into something a bit like the people they exposed to...maybe they have to be, to get hard...
When I was in Orange County Jail out here, a guard once told me that, was that the reason all new sheriff deputies had to first work as guards in the jail, as they were too soft hearted, and had to be exposed to us day and night for a while, to see what we were really about...all you had to do was listen to our conversations for a few days on the catwalk, to loose whatever tragic or kindly view of junkies they might have once held...
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