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View Full Version : Zolpidem really is better for sleeping than ..


resorcinol
05-22-2009, 12:17 AM
.. anxiolytic benzos. I just quit opioids and the amount of anxiolytic benzos I need to fall asleep is ridiculous. I know the hypnotic benzos are probably much better for sleep than z-drugs, but I really feel that z-drugs are better for insomnia than anxiolytic benzos.

I know that all benzos are agonists at all of the GABA(A) subunits (a1, a2,3, a5) with a histidine residue in the right spot (a4 has a different amino acid in that critical spot and thus benzos are not agonists at a4 subtypes), but the likes of klonopin and serax really don't tickle the a1 subtype enough to be effective sleep aids. Zolpidem is less recreational no doubt, but I can say from experience I can understand why a doc would prescribe zolpidem over, say, xanax for insomnia - zolpidem is superior at hitting the a1 subtype and it shows as zolpidem puts me to sleep despite a ridiculous tolerance to benzodiazepines.

Klonopin and serax make me loopy, don't-give-a-damn about anything buzzed up, and cause pretty obvious motor impairment ... but they just don't make me very tired at all.

I have to conclude that docs aren't trying to steer us away from recreational use when they Rx ambien or lunesta over xanax or klonopin (or valium, serax, ativan, etc). Maybe some docs have that on their mind, but IME zolpidem is a better sleep aid than anxiolytic benzos.

The point of this post? At my last docs appointment I forgot that I had no ambien refills left and didn't ask for a new Rx. This is kinda inconvenient because now is when I really need it the most. It takes doses of klonopin or serax far, far too large to put me out while zolpidem still does the trick at just 10 mg.

If anyone out there is angling for a benzo script ... forget about scoring hypnotic benzos by complaining of insomnia - you'll only get them after the z-drugs have been exhausted to death and even then a doc will be hesitant to Rx something like Restoril or Halcion because they're frankly pretty dangerous if recreational use is attempted. If you want a benzo you need to show signs of panic disorder ... panic disorder will almost always unless you have a really anti-controlled substance doc will generally get you a script for a benzo (just not the hypnotics). Now before anybody jumps on me about how scamming docs makes it more difficult for those in actual need to get relief ... remember I HAVE panic disorder so my Rx for anxiolytics is legitimate. Thing is, people will ALWAYS be scamming docs for drugs until the war on drugs ends and it's a waste of their time and yours if you go about fishing for drugs the wrong way.

PAWS is sucky and I'm pretty jaded about the fact that society demonizes the drugs that work best for me (opioids) - I was NEVER as happy in my ENTIRE LIFE as I was on a combination of a stimulant, antidepressant, and maintenance fentanyl at 50 ug/hr. I'll survive without, but it pisses me off to no end that I can't have the ultimate treatment for my problems. I'm not talkign euphoria .... the stimulant and opioid used AS PRESCRIBED at those doses still kills depression and anxiety dead long long after the euphoria is gone. The clear conclusion for me is that life sucks even moreso for us than for "normals" due to a societal, arbitrary, prejudice. I'm not gonna cry myself a river but I'm definitely bitchy about the whole damn thing. I don't GET why it's so wrong to alter brain chemistry if you're not getting the pleasure out of life that other folks seem to get. Oh wait ... it's OK to alter it with drugs that cannot be used recreationally like SSRIs, but if there's a chance you might get high, it's off limits ... I still fail to see the difference. Who seriously gives a damn if responsible adults (a minority, even if opioids were legal, I'd bet money on it) decide to get high on their opioids instead of using as prescribed? Why is it anyone's goddamn business? Ah, well, none of us really have a choice --- we're living in the wrong time to want / need these types of substances.

wizardofoz80
05-22-2009, 12:34 AM
I agree with you completly on your opiate stance. I thought America was founded on getting big brother out of our lives and letting us do what we want to do. The shit gets worse and worse and big brother gets into every aspect of our lives. If our health system is gov run i bet doc shopping will be much harder.

God_Albino
05-22-2009, 01:02 AM
ambien used to be a wonder sleep drug for me even when i was in the worst pain of my life and sleeping 4 hours a night normally, if that.

now klonopin seems to work the best, it kills all but the biggest panic and helps me sleep, its perfect. ambien if i can find it is just a great opiate potentiator now but i dont get tired just weird.

Euphoricgirl
05-22-2009, 06:09 AM
Be careful, it causes some memory loss, fatigue and hot flashes. I have been prescribed it for years, and over did it.....Umm.what day is this?? :-)

Maggie38
05-22-2009, 06:16 AM
For the past 8 years I've taken 10mg Ambien for sleep. It's never let me down. I've found though that taking one Ambien with a half mg of Xanax at bed time can put you in a very restful sleep.

youwonhundred
05-22-2009, 07:53 AM
Be careful, it causes some memory loss, fatigue and hot flashes. I have been prescribed it for years, and over did it.....Umm.what day is this?? :-)

I actually had to pull down the calendar on my menu bar to check, EG. I did not know what day it was...

And I'm completely straight...

SeVeN
05-22-2009, 10:58 AM
Ambien is Great for sleep. The problem I have is that sometimes I still wake up too early. But at least I sleep some. I usually mix something with it to stay asleep.

WarmCyanide
05-22-2009, 11:26 AM
for me at least: Zolpidem>ramelteon
if one is taken with a beer or glass of wine otherwise two alone
anziolytic never helped too much unless a shitload

kamikaze
05-22-2009, 12:27 PM
I love Ambien... It is my favorite drug ever next to OC. The two together make a fantastic combination. As for sleeping I'd say Ambien is effective 75% of the time when I'm actually trying to go to sleep. Lots of times I try to fight the sleep and smoke some dank bud and trip out pretty hardcore. Good times

resorcinol
05-22-2009, 04:21 PM
Zolpidem definitely has some psychedelic effects. This isn't too surprising since other GABA(A) agonist drugs have shown mild psychedelic effects (amanita mushrooms / muscimol, and sporadic reports of hallucinations on lorazepam --- and of course ambien and lunesta). There's more to GABA(A) agonism than sedation and anxiety relief for sure.

Luckily I just had a docs appt and got my zolpidem back. This time it's the CR kind though since he feels it will be more helpful to get an extended release for combating PAWS resultant from opioid w/d. PAWS insomnia has a major "wake up too early" component, hence the change to Ambien CR. The insurance WILL NOT fill more than 15 of the 12.5 mg XR zolpidem per month though, so I'll alternate between it and serax until the insomnia begins to back down (yet they have no problem covering the costs of massive amounts of focalin, klonopin, serax, and duragesic [while I was still on it - I'm OFF that stuff now, yay!] --- but zolpidem they get stingy with. So strange. It's gotta have something to do with the fact that zolpidem isn't approved for daily use while the other drugs mentioned are. Still silly. Zolpidem is less addictive than all the other drugs I mentioned).

Doc is THRILLED that the fentanyl transdermal taper worked to get me clean. He suggested that I try naltrexone only if the cravings become bad enough that I run the risk of relapsing ot a very high degree which he's gonna monitor for by having me rate my cravings each visit and rate how close I felt I was to slipping each time. I'd prefer to NOT take that goddamn gross drug, and he'd rather not give it to me, but it's ... in his words ... there as an option if I become overwhelmed with cravings / fiending.

I really believe I can do this without that god awful drug naltrexone. I don't wanna block my endogenous opioid peptides for no good reason when they're integral to feeling natural happiness from life. If I can manage my cravings without (which I KNOW I CAN) I'm NOT taking fucking naltrexone. I really don't like mu antagonists ... the reduce the efficacy of other psych meds (antidepressants, psychostimulants, etc) because they prevent half of the mesolimbic reward pathway (the start point of the pathway, where the mu receptors are) from working properly. I can feel my natural endorphins coming back -- my mood is much much improved, and I'm not gonna ruin that with naltrexone, fucking hell no. I'll make the cravings my bitch without that god awful drug. I like how I feel now that my mu receptors and endorphin production is beginning to normalize --- not gonna fuck with natural brain activity that brings happiness.

DCBA
05-22-2009, 05:59 PM
Yeah, zolpidem hits the right spot for sedation as you said in another words. Its much more active in the subunits responsable for sedation instead of being more general like many benzos are. Benzos hit other subunits that are also responsable for body muscles relaxation, some say amnesic effects are responsable from different subunits too, and many other effects that are claimed to be responsable from different receptor or subunits...

But i also find zolpidem also very usuable for anxiety.. wich bring me to what i wanted to say.. the receptors/subunits for anxiolitc effect/hypnotic effect are the same..
And because of that I believe that there is no difference in the receptors that are hited to produce an anxiolitic activity and those that are hiteed for hypnotic activity..
They are the same, they are the receptor that are responsable for sedation.. and this is according to me and many doctors or wannabe doctors that i´ve came across with in my life..
For me/them the only difference between anxiolitic and an hypnotic effect are the dosage.. the receptor/subuunit is the same!
I´ve said this many times before but it was never discussed here.. but it was in other places including workshops.

But like you said there are other effects that are different even between benzos and what they call know non-benzodiazepines sedatives like zolpidem..

And yes, zolpidem is more selective for the sedation receptor so more prone to being anxiolitc/hypnotic than being miorelaxant for instance, i think its 10x more..