Potentiating with uppers (NOT speedball)

[resorcinol]

Anyone else ever do this? While I was still sometimes using opioids recreationally (don't anymore, in fact my taper is nearing its end and soon I will be off of them totally) I would quite frequently take a small dose of amphetamine or d-methylphenidate.

The "small dose" thing is why I said "NOT speedball" in the title. I wouldn't take enough of the upper to be high on it also. I'd just take enough to boost the euphoria from the opioid quite significantly... and it can be quite significant.

The theory is that opioids partially cause their intense euphoria that doesn't depend on set and setting because they activate dopamine release in the nucleus accumbens shell via disinhibition of dopamine inter-neurons projecting from the VTA (where the mesolimbic pathway originates, and where there are a large concentration of mu receptors on presynaptic axon terminals -- mu agonists decrease the release of GABA in this region, which leads to less activation of post synaptic GABA(B) receptors on the dendrites of the receiving neurons, and the resultant depolarization leads to more action potentials firing down the neurons into the NAc shell, where the action potentials release dopamine into the synapses of the NAc shell -- the same place where stimulants increase dopamine release or prevent its reuptake). By adding a small upper dose, you augment the boosted dopamine release in the NAc shell by either releasing even more dopamine (amphetamine) or preventing its reuptake (d-methylphenidate or cocaine) -- which increases the euphoric feeling of the opioids.

Cocaine is less well suited for this potentiation IMO because it is so short acting .. cocaine is more suited for simply getting high on a stimulant and an opioid at the same time (a speedball). The longer acting stimulants could be used for either purpose: to get high on both (an atypical speedball, since the term originally meant cocaine and heroin used IV, but in reality any opioid + stimulant where both are substantially potent produces similar results by IV, or similar results minus the rush by other ROAs), or to just potentiate the opioid high with a small dose of the psycho-motor stimulant.

Now I know there are lots of people who do speedballs, but I'm interested whether there are any other opiophiles who combine a stimulant with an opioid without having a speedball high as the goal - but rather just potentiating the opioid as the goal. That's what I often did instead of trying to have a speedball high.

I find that a small enough dose leaves you with a mostly opioid feeling, but enhances the euphoria significantly (unlike benzos, which add to the nod and buzzed feelings, but don't add all that much euphoria generally). Granted, the "nod" is pretty much completely abolished by even a small dose of amphetamine or d-mph ... they're powerful uppers and even a small dose will keep you "alert" due to norepinephrine release or re-uptake inhibition, so this wouldn't be the way to go for opiophiles who really love to nod out (benzos or other GABA agonists would be the way to go for nod-loving opiophiles).

I really don't LOVE the nod though, that's not what makes me love opioids. I love the very unique euphoric feeling of opioids (that physical and mental wave of pleasure and euphoria, respectively, that isn't accompanied by manic activities as occurs with a full blown upper high -- manic activities being motormouth, shopping sprees [I've bought hundreds of dollars worth of stuff that I later sold because I didn't really want the stuff when really high on Adderall], superconcentration on tasks, delusions of grandeur as the dose and time awake increases, and paranoid delusions if one really over-does it with a stimulant [stimulant psychosis ... a 3 day adderall and propylhexedrine binge showed me very clearly how very real the psychosis can be, I was seeing shit that was not real, hearing people conspiring against me when they were not even paying attention to me much less talking about me, seeing drug bags on the ground that I couldn't pick up much to my frustration because they were not really there -- the fucking works, it was madness]). I find that a small dose of amphetamine or d-mph really adds to the opioid euphoria without significantly contaminating the opioid feeling with an upper feeling.

We typically talk about potetiation with other "downer" drugs or by enzyme inhibition, but rarely about potentiating with euphoric stimulants, when I find personally that it's the most effective way to increase the actual EUPHORIA from the opioid and not just the buzz or nod feelings.

Any other opiophiles try this or do it regularly (speedballs, being totally high on BOTH a euphoric stimulant and an opioid, DON'T COUNT)?

[lespaulpower]

Whoa, It's crazy you should mention this, because Ive been searching the web all over in the last hour for info on this. Thanks for posting it!

The past few days Ive been experimenting with low dose methylphenidate just to add a little somethin to my bup doses.

[resorcinol]

I could see this method adding a little something extra special to buprenorphine during the "honeymoon phase" of BMT.

I doubt it would work very well after being on BMT for a long time though, as IME there has to be SOME opioid high present without the stimulant for the stimulant to potentiate. It can be used to "strech" a stash out by lowering the dose of opioid needed to get a good high very effectively from my experience with it, but it's not a miracle worker in that you still have to have enough opioid to produce threshold or stronger effects in order to fully experience the upper potentiation phenomenon.

I can't say because of this how useful this would be for long term bupe maintenance patients since most BMT patients no longer feel even the faintest opioid high after their doses (although many do feel an opioid buzz during the first few weeks -- the "honeymoon phase" of maintenance treatement). Some BMT users say they still get a mild glow for an hour or two after their daily dose though, and for those lucky folks, potentiating with uppers (really, Adderall or Focalin are IME the BEST picks -- easy to acquire and potent. I'm sure low dose Dexedrine or Desoxyn / street d-methamphetamine would work equally well, but they're not as easily available where Adderall and Focalin are common ADHD drugs that are available in overflowing quantities at any high school or college campus. Ritalin would also work, but it's inferior to Focalin -- it has more body load and is only half the potency due to it being racemic MPH while Focalin is pure d-MPH) just might be worthwhile.

Edit: Street d-methamphetamine is probably a lot easier to acquire in the western part of the U.S., but crystal is a very rare drug on the east coast, at least it is very uncommon in the northeast U.S. from what I've seen.

[bronyraur]

As always, excellent information Resorcinol.

I personally was never big on mixing uppers and downers, even in small amounts to potentiate an opiate high.

[lespaulpower]

I could see this method adding a little something extra special to buprenorphine during the "honeymoon phase" of BMT.

I doubt it would work very well after being on BMT for a long time though, as IME there has to be SOME opioid high present without the stimulant for the stimulant to potentiate. It can be used to "strech" a stash out by lowering the dose of opioid needed to get a good high very effectively from my experience with it, but it's not a miracle worker in that you still have to have enough opioid to produce threshold or stronger effects in order to fully experience the upper potentiation phenomenon.

I can't say because of this how useful this would be for long term bupe maintenance patients since most BMT patients no longer feel even the faintest opioid high after their doses (although many do feel an opioid buzz during the first few weeks -- the "honeymoon phase" of maintenance treatement). Some BMT users say they still get a mild glow for an hour or two after their daily dose though, and for those lucky folks, potentiating with uppers (really, Adderall or Focalin are IME the BEST picks -- easy to acquire and potent. I'm sure low dose Dexedrine or Desoxyn / street d-methamphetamine would work equally well, but they're not as easily available where Adderall and Focalin are common ADHD drugs that are available in overflowing quantities at any high school or college campus. Ritalin would also work, but it's inferior to Focalin -- it has more body load and is only half the potency due to it being racemic MPH while Focalin is pure d-MPH) just might be worthwhile.

Edit: Street d-methamphetamine is probably a lot easier to acquire in the western part of the U.S., but crystal is a very rare drug on the east coast, at least it is very uncommon in the northeast U.S. from what I've seen.

Ive been on the BMT for about 5 months now, and I no longer get anywhere NEAR the glow I got during the first 2-3 days (Obviously, lol). I AM one of the few though, who experience a slightly noticeable glow after each daily dose. In order to not spoil this, I try and space each dose out at least 18-24 hours and stay below a certain point each day - keeping my tol. in check -. The methylphenidate (in the form of concerta - which I painstakingly break open and crush as finely as possible, then toss and wash) It seems to help me get by on less bupe - Like you said, and adds a different type of glow to the bupe.
Today was my second day trying it.

Its impossible to know an exact number, but I try and take about 10-20 mg of the MPH each day - Which also helps with some chronic fatigue Ive been feeling (god knows why)

[mikey5string]

i used to love a 10 mg adderall and a 30mg roxicodone (2 little blue pills). It was my sunday morning hangover cure when i used to go out on saturday nights. they would be sitting on my nightstand waiting for me. i remember rolling over feeling like shit and swallowing them with huge glass of water then rolling over for another 30 min or so and getting up feelng like a million bucks.

[SHELLEY]

what about sticking two needles in at once
one filled with speed or coke and one filled with heroin
and then hitting one followed by the other one?
that shit is crazy, i know it's not what you're talking about but that's what i like

[Chipper]

Yes, I almost always add 10-15 mgs of dextroamphetamine to my opiod dose...not to potentiate but to lengthen the euphoria.

[resorcinol]

The chronic fatigue could be from the bupe possibly. Bupe and methadone are both very non-ideal opioids. The gov't certainly knows this and the more cynical side of me believes that this is part of the reason that they're the two drugs approved for maintenance. Methadone is a full mu agonist but is riddled with side effects compared to other full agonists, and has a wildly varying oral bioavailability and half life from person to person. Buprenorphine is a bastardized etorphine-like opioid, made to be a partial agonist by having that cyclopropylmethyl group substituted onto the amine group; this substitution would produce a mu opioid ANTAGONIST with any typical morphine-like phenanthrene opioid, but the etorphine-like features (side chain, extra 6 membered ring) so strongly favor agonism that having the cyclopropylmethyl renderes buprenorphine a partial agonist rather than an antagonist -- it's nonetheless reduced dramatically in usefullness due to being a partial, since partials don't ease cravings for people hooked on full agonists sufficiently in many cases.

I think having levorphanol AND levomethorphan as maintenance drugs, using the OROS time release mechanism to allow once a day dosing (OROS is the time release mech used in Concerta ... it's highly effective at releasing the drug very evenly over the required time period in the required release rate from person to person and is also highly effective at deterring IV or even insuffulation usage due to the matrix the drug being stored in having a waxy consistency), would beat MMT and BMT by a friggin mile. Levorphanol would be for heavier habits while levomethorphan would be for lighter (say up to 200 mg hydrocodone or 100 mg oxycodone or equivalent per day) habits. I'd call the maintenance treatments with levorphanol and levomethorphan OROS tablets LMT and LVMT, respectively. Having it be doctor-prescribable would be IDEAL, but even a clinic system to ensure nobody crushed up their OROS tablets to get a high would be an improvement over MMT or BMT simply due to greater efficacy and easier tapering if a patient wanted to fully quit. LMT and LVMT are full agonists that aren't riddled with side effects like methadone and would provide robust cravings control unlike buprenorphine, and their half lives are in the 10 hour range such that most of the once-daily dosing ability would rest in the OROS time release, and the slightly extended half life would just provide added smoothness. The 10 hour half life, vs the much much longer half lives of bupe or 'done, would mean that it'd be easier to quit LMT or LVMT also, it'd be a lot less like "liquid handcuffs" than especially methadone.

Our gov't chooses to continue to provide only suboptimal maintenance offerings though, since they really don't want anyone using opioids deep down inside due to a puritanical anti-pleasure emotive drive that is so deeply entrenched in this society.

Using concerta for fatigue from BMT or MMT or even for non BMT or MMT related chronic fatigue syndrome is effective, though. MPH is actually commonly used for chronic fatigue syndrome and narcolepsy.

[lespaulpower]

Thanks Resc.

I learn ALOT from your posts.

Two thumbs up....

[resorcinol]

what about sticking two needles in at once
one filled with speed or coke and one filled with heroin
and then hitting one followed by the other one?
that shit is crazy, i know it's not what you're talking about but that's what i like

Well yeah, I'd imagine it's the best pure euphoria you can get from drugs - combining an opioid with a psycho-stimulant and shooting them up.

I'm so glad I never got a needle habit (not knocking IV users, in fact I'm sure I'd have loved IV opioids, but it's gotta make quitting much more difficult and introduce health problems that aren't there with just oral or snorting). I did shoot up once, but it was Ambien, and I was already high as hell on lorazepam (I blacked out after I shot the 20 mg zolpidem up, not surprisingly, since I was already benzo'd out ... I remember it feeling way better than oral zolpidem though). I don't THINK I shot up any other time besides that once, but who knows during some of those blackouts what might have went on. That's why I got an HIV test; I had no way of knowing if I had sex and whether it was safe or not, or if I shot something up and whether the needle was clean or not - during those blackouts. The few really bad benzo blackouts I had were complete "en-bloc" blackouts ... I remember NOTHING, and still remember NOTHING. I only recall shooting up once though, and it was zolpidem.

Edit: I know I must have done at least SOME stupid shit during the WORST benzo blackout I had with bromazepam, since I got a letter from the RD of my building up at the university requesting a meeting. In the letter it said that I'd told somebody that I was high on "heroin and xanax" which is strange because I had neither of those drugs in my possession before I started consuming excessive quantities of bromazepam. Clearly I WASN'T thinking (duh, I was completely blacked out in a benzo stupor) if I told somebody I was high loud enough that my RA heard and reported me.

I sweet talked my way out of that one (thank goodness) by claiming that I was blackout drunk and probably said shit that wasn't true, and that I had nothing besides alcohol in my possession before I lost memory. I figured he'd be more lenient with booze despite me being underage since it's so ubiquitous on campus, and I was right, he didn't send me to judicial review, but he did have my room searched by the campus police (luckily they DIDN'T find the pods, bromazepam, lorazepam, and adderall that I had on me).

Edit2: After that scary incident with benzos I was paranoid for awhile that a little mark on my arm was from a needle, but if it was I didn't catch HIV from it since I'm negative to ELISA months (actually more than a year, and antibodies would have shown for sure for HIV by then) after this happened. It may have been a needle an maybe I was high on heroin, I really don't know (obviously), but since I'm not sure I'm sticking with the idea that I only shot up once, with zolpidem, the time I remember.

[Morphus]

My experience, and its mostly with methamp that fits the parameters of the original post; is that the opiate high is sort of delicate, and it is easily overpowered by strong stimulants. I have used opiates whilst high on speed and have always felt that to be a big waste. I can recall taking a hit of crank several hours prior to scoring some H, and being that it was late at night, shooting shot after shot (of skag)in an attempt to come down and get some sleep. I'd feel the H rush, for a few minutes, then nothing........back to my previous over stimulated, agitated state. I have never really gotten any synergy with opiates and stimulants, the stimulant always seems to totally overpower the opiate high. From some previous posts it sounds like it works for a lot of folks, not me though.

There is only one scenario where opiates have gone well with stims: you've done a bunch of crank, stayed awake for a day or two, and are in the stage where you are still overstimulated and would like to sleep, but can't: in this situation opiates can have a very strong calming influence, and your mental and physical exhaustion can actually enhance the opies effects. But you've gotta be sure youre really at this stage, too early and you've sacrificed more opiates to your overstimulated brain for no effect.

[digby]

I combine the two often, but it is usually out of necessity as I am prescribed both opiates and amps as part of a treatment plan. Many times it becomes a problem though, as for me some opiates don't combine with amps as well as others. Oxy and amphetamine most often works well and the added amps just seems to compliment all the good stuff - pain relief, euphoria, energy, focus and mental clarity. Hydromorphine and uppers - not so good for me, at least in the mental clarity and focus department. More mental and physical "fuzziness" and clouding, more akin to an alcohol drunk than doing opiates. Hydrocodone works well, but oxymorphone not so much.

All in all, I think I would prefer to take amphetamines and opiates seperately over the long haul. Sometimes it becomes too much like combining a nice Burgundy in a glass with a fine Chardonnay - it removes all the subtlety and substance of both elements even though it packs quite a punch.

[resorcinol]

My experience, and its mostly with methamp that fits the parameters of the original post; is that the opiate high is sort of delicate, and it is easily overpowered by strong stimulants. I have used opiates whilst high on speed and have always felt that to be a big waste. I can recall taking a hit of crank several hours prior to scoring some H, and being that it was late at night, shooting shot after shot (of skag)in an attempt to come down and get some sleep. I'd feel the H rush, for a few minutes, then nothing........back to my previous over stimulated, agitated state. I have never really gotten any synergy with opiates and stimulants, the stimulant always seems to totally overpower the opiate high. From some previous posts it sounds like it works for a lot of folks, not me though.

There is only one scenario where opiates have gone well with stims: you've done a bunch of crank, stayed awake for a day or two, and are in the stage where you are still overstimulated and would like to sleep, but can't: in this situation opiates can have a very strong calming influence, and your mental and physical exhaustion can actually enhance the opies effects. But you've gotta be sure youre really at this stage, too early and you've sacrificed more opiates to your overstimulated brain for no effect.

I agree with you that the opioid high, while blissfully euphoric, is delicate. I also, however, feel that benzos can disrupt this delicate unique feeling just as much as a psychostimulant can. I've found that too much benzodiazepine can actually REDUCE the rushing euphoria by making you so INTENSELY sedated (this doesn't happen if a small dose it taken, though, which for me is the goal when I potentiate with benzos. note ... my "small dose" of benzo is quite large by the standards of non-regular benzo users. of all the drug classes I've used, I've definitely developed the HIGHEST tolerance proportionally to benzos. this is mostly because I have a legitimate Rx ... even though I prefer opioids, I never had a legit CP Rx, only a maintenance Rx. For example, 4 mg clonazepam with 60 mg oxazepam + opioid of choice in a moderate dose [not high dose ... gotta watch the respiratory depression] is a "small dose" for me; that much benzodiazepine ALONE would knock a non-tolerant to benzos new benzo user on their ASS. be careful).

With psychostimulants, I find that the non-tainted opioid high is, again, preserved by keeping the doses low. This can be tricky as there's a temptation to just take a BUNCH to get REALLY fucking euphoric and just do a speedball. Then, though, you've lost your pure opioid high and are mainly feeling opioid-enhanced speed ... which is nice, but I'm an opioid man. 10 mg d-MPH / Focalin (or the equivalent in other stims; 20 mg MPH / Ritalin, 10 mg mixed amphetamine salts / Adderall, 7.5 mg d-amphetamine / Dexedrine, or 5 mg d-methamphetamine / Desoxyn) is just perfect for me to get much boosted euphoria without significantly changing the nature of the opioid high. It is possible to SLIGHTLY tell that you're on more than just an opioid, but it's a MILD notation for me, much worth the boost in euphoria. Sometimes I'd even go pure opioid for the first "phase" of the opioid high (the energetic phase), then when the sleepy phase began to come on, I'd chew up some adderall or focalin at 10 mg , and boom, back to the energetic opioid high, albeit with a SLIGHTLY different vibe to it. Doing it like this second way also extends the overall high, like another poster mentioned before me.

If you're a super-purist about the opioid high and don't want any, even slight, non-opioid feelings creeping into your buzz, this route isn't gonna be for you; benzos (the nod-lover's choice) and psychostimulants (the energetic buzz lover's choice) will both ever so slightly change the feeling slightly off from "pure opioid" even in the low doses I'm thinking of, but it's not a total derailment like a speedball or a benzo blackout. The best way for super-purists has gotta be inhibiting enzymes for oral users of opies with terrible oral bioavailability, or switching to plugging, smoking (only works well for some opies), IM, SC, or IV ... to get more out of a limited quantity of opioid. If you're a purist, but not "super"-purist (in other words, you'll take a little bit of non-opioid effects in your buzz ... but you want the opioid feelings to clearly dominate over the potentiator drugs) then this method can work to boost a nod (low doses of benzos as the potentiator) or the energetic, empathetic, productive opioid feeling (low doses of a psychostimulant as the potentiator).

Also, of course, if you're NOT a purist, and just want the strongest buzz, taking a recreational dose of the opioid AND the psychostimulant is probably one of the most euphoric but also most incredibly addictive feelings in the world. Opioids TOTALLY wipe out the negative side effects of speed or cocaine when used in a speedball, and likewise, the speed or coke removes the reclusive, non-party drug, noddy nature of opioids TOTALLY. You're left with what amounts to euphoria ... and strong euphoria. Speed alone can turn into a paranoid / anxious, dry mouthed, nauseous, heart racing, teeth grinding, cracked out experience fast if too much is used or too much exertion (like dancing) is participated in. Opioids alone are not great for parties with the possible exception of the most energetic first hour or two of the buzz, on a sub-nod inducing dose, and with a small group of people (ideally close friends). Opioids alone at a big, loud party and full on blastoff doses will be frustrating ... I know that when I took enough to fade in and out of the land of nod, a huge loud crowd where some people I did not know would talk to me would irritate me (I'd get the well known "opioid bitchiness"). Combine the two however, and the upper causes no anxiety and paranoia, and physical unpleasantness is drastically reduced. The opioid causes less of an introspective mood and noddy disposition and just the warm blanket and strong mood lift (and itchies) are left while the energetic side of opioids (some, like oxycodone, are more notable for this effect) is enhanced and blends into the stimulation of the speed. The result is a heaven on earth feeling that I'd imagine only MDMA can rival. A "speedball", even if not injected and not precisely cocaine and heroin (ex: oxycodone and dexamphetamine orally is a pseudo-speedball imo), stimulates BOTH key ends of the euphoria inducing, dopamine neuron rich, mesolimbic pathway within the larger lower midbrain area called the limbic system that regulates emotions; speedballs are thus probably the most set and setting independent intense euphoria attainable (and this makes them fiercely addictive). I need to try MDMA someday, though. MDMA sounds wonderful.

Even over on the "other" board (bluelight), on the "most euphoric drugs" poll, two drugs were the most chosen by a landslide over all the others: MDMA and opioids (as a class). It seems that most druggies find MDMA and opioids to be the most powerfully euphoria inducing recreational drugs. I know this to be true of opies, but I've never tried MDMA :(

I've also heard that MIXING MDMA with a strong opioid (heroin, oxycodone, fentanyl, oxymorphone, hydrocodone, etc) is like being touched by an angel -- that it's even better than a speedball due to the much stronger empathy along with the potent euphoria.

[LongKissGoodNite]

I've also heard that MIXING MDMA with a strong opioid (heroin, oxycodone, fentanyl, oxymorphone, hydrocodone, etc) is like being touched by an angel -- that it's even better than a speedball due to the much stronger empathy along with the potent euphoria.

I had these E pills a long long time ago .. they were called H bombs because they were allegedly mixed with heroin MDMA and speed .. I can tell you .. this is correct.