effexor and opioid activity....

[jacky]

I knew it, I knew it, finally some data that points to the opioid activity with effexor or venlefaxine....

I first noticed opioid withdrawl sideffects when taking it, and then having to quit it in jail.... ironically my doctor said that it was the best antideppressant for recovering addicts!!

then I met person after person who had become addicted to it. and had the opioid like withdrawl symptoms.

then I learned that effexor, and tramadol are so very close in chemical structure...

after learning that I just assumed that there must be some opioid activity that the scientists have not noticed yet, or perhaps they covered this data up for awhile....

whatever the case I am glad that there is more research going on with this chemical...

now I have not a problem at all with the compound effexor, it is a great antideppressant, just a little speedy in the beginning, and what could be better than an opioid active antidepressant? I just had a problem with so many niave people falling into a pretty horrendous addiction with no real knowledge out there as to just why effexor creates these tolerance issues or sever withdrawl issues.

MY own mother called me up several years ago, and told me she was starting effexor, I warned her, told her I suspected it of opioid activity, which I thought would end her interest right there, as she does not like opiates because of what I did with my life when I was abusing them...well she didnt heed my warning. Months later she called me one week and told me she had just spent a week "kicking" effexor, and that she had new found respect for me as the experience was so overwhelmingly horrible that she now understood just why I couldnt just drop the opiate lifestyle.

So the data is in, and it points to effexor and opiate activity, I would paste and post here, but I just cannot get my pastes to post in these windows for some reason, very annoying.

[Cornburglar]

I knew it, I knew it, finally some data that points to the opioid activity with effexor or venlefaxine....

I first noticed opioid withdrawl sideffects when taking it, and then having to quit it in jail.... ironically my doctor said that it was the best antideppressant for recovering addicts!!

then I met person after person who had become addicted to it. and had the opioid like withdrawl symptoms.

then I learned that effexor, and tramadol are so very close in chemical structure...

after learning that I just assumed that there must be some opioid activity that the scientists have not noticed yet, or perhaps they covered this data up for awhile....

whatever the case I am glad that there is more research going on with this chemical...

now I have not a problem at all with the compound effexor, it is a great antideppressant, just a little speedy in the beginning, and what could be better than an opioid active antidepressant? I just had a problem with so many niave people falling into a pretty horrendous addiction with no real knowledge out there as to just why effexor creates these tolerance issues or sever withdrawl issues.

MY own mother called me up several years ago, and told me she was starting effexor, I warned her, told her I suspected it of opioid activity, which I thought would end her interest right there, as she does not like opiates because of what I did with my life when I was abusing them...well she didnt heed my warning. Months later she called me one week and told me she had just spent a week "kicking" effexor, and that she had new found respect for me as the experience was so overwhelmingly horrible that she now understood just why I couldnt just drop the opiate lifestyle.

So the data is in, and it points to effexor and opiate activity, I would paste and post here, but I just cannot get my pastes to post in these windows for some reason, very annoying.

Jacky, I've been on effexor for about 3 months now and I can really see a tremendous difference in terms of mood stabilization and relief of anxiety and depressive symptoms as compared to lexapro which is the onlyother SSRI I've ever taken. I was VERY hinky starting the med but once I got about a month under my belt I began to feel really, really good. Not just relieved but good. I'm wondering though how my regimen of 150mg day is affecting my opiate use. I've been on a binge of daily pod use which we can all agree is just a lookin' fer trouble. I'd like to see some further comments on this from others on the forum who have experience with effexor and opiateas.

[HistoryofMadness]

Well, I wonder how this would go with wellbutrin? Anybody here been on the combo? Come to think of it, wellbutrin is speedy at the beginning with opiate-like WD too. And likewise it is considered a wonder drug for recovery...

I wonder if effexor is supposed to help with anxiety too. Anybody?

Either way, I'm anxious to hear more (no pun intended). Thanks for the good info, jacky, how do we get more?

[Paregoric Kid]

could you please post the source?
does it bind to the mu receptors?
the withdrawls are different from opiate withdrawl. the effexor shocks, the brain tingling, electric feeling is a unique feature of effexor withdrawl.

[stvip]

This is not new, and venlafaxine (Effexor) is not the only antidepressant known to interact with opioidergic system.
For countebalance, see this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15157989&query_hl=8&itool=pubmed_docsum

It is still widely used, but naloxone-reversible analgesia is not as strong an indicator of direct opioid interaction as some researchers think. Even ASA shows this type of activity.

However, generally, the interaction of many antidepressants with opioids is interestinng. Plenty of research showing they reduce opioid tolerance and dependence in animal models. As usual, governments have more important ways to spend their funds than in establishing whether these results hold in humans - ways that include hunting and embezzling the rights of said humans.

[devilsdrug]

heh corn is this on top of the rit or am i too fukkin nosy just curious as to all the interplay

[Paregoric Kid]

opioids are any drug that acts on any of the opioid receptors. one would need to do in vitro radioligand binding studies to determine if venlafaxine binds to any of the opioid receptors. so far studies show it has moderate affinity for the 5-HT transporter and a very low affinity for the norepinephrine transporter; the [3H]cyanoimipramine and [3H]nisoxetine binding sites. venlafaxine and it's metabolite also have a weak binding affinity for the dopamine transporter. however, it is possible that there are other reasons for venlafaxines effects on 5-ht, norepinephrine, and dopamine. venlafaxine is metabolized into O-desmethylvenlafaxine, which acts similarly. it could be possible that the metabolite may bind to other receptors.
the naloxone effect does not necessarily mean that venlafaxine works through the opioid receptors, which tramadol does. if it does not bind to an opioid receptor, which no studies I've read so far suggest, I don't see how it could be said to have opioid activity.

[jacky]

heres two good sources that state suspected involvement...actually one, the one that seems very important for arguments that some depression is linked with the opioidergic system, involves also the drug mirtazapin (remeron)

I think alot of opiate addicts that take effexor would notice obvious opiate like withdrawl symptoms, it is unmistakably VERY opiate like, actually I rate it worse, because of the " spatial disorientation" that causes the "effexor shocks" that last some two weeks for me after quitting effexor. also, postural hypotension when withdrawing from effexor was very intense, leading to some seizure like activity in me a few times.

here are the study headlines...I would paste the whole damn article, but cant seem to get it to fucking post!!!


"THE ROLES OF THE OPIOIDERGIC SYSTEM AND NITRIC OXIDE IN THE ANALGESIC EFFECT OF VENLAFAXINE"

and...

' VENLAFAXINE AND MIRTAZAPINE: DIFFERENT MECHANISMS OF ANTIDEPRESSANT ACTION, COMMON OPIOID-MEDIATED ANTINOCICEPTIVE EFFECTS-A POSSIBLE OPIOID INVOLVEMENT IN SEVERE DEPRESSION.'
here is a sort quip from the above heading paragoric, to try and head you in the direction of receptor type...
" we found that the antinociceptive effect of venlafaxine is influenced by opioid receptor subtypes (mu-,kappa1-kappa 3)...effect of mirtazapin mainly involves mu and kappa 3 mechanisms"

both these studies are stored on the hedonists imperative website, the BLTC website, you know what I am talking about, the future opioids website...basically a cache of opiate and other drugs information,(great resource)
these people are very sensative to our mission...

I am not saying these compounds are classic opiates, I am not saying that they have obvious opiate like effects other than the withdrawl symptoms.
when I started effexor I was suspected of being on methamphetamine at my first NA meeting, cause the effexor had me itching and licking my lips, the come on is a strong stimulant effect for me, and I was licking my teeth and lips too much for some people. I also kept feeling my hair, rubbing my scalp, as it was tingling and feeling very strange, sort of like when you take mdma and your hair feels exquisite.

my dad didnt want me taking the stuff, but I woudnt give that stuff up, it helped me get throught the day, and after kicking dope, the effexors stimulant effect was GREAT, as a matter of fact, my boss took me aside and threatened a UA cause she thought I was relapsing when I would come to work at 8 am in a euphoric mindstate........I told her it was the effexor mixed with coffee, and she gave me a lecture about not taking psychoactive anything when trying to recover...

anyway my mind was made up on this a long time ago, the withdrawl effects, the quick tolerance, were enough to get me thinking that it was opiate related, then I learned of effexors VERY similiar structure compared to tramadol, and realized that it was most likely that there was something that they either werent telling us, or that they were unaware of.

its funny you know, that my internal medicine specialist wouldnt prescribe me antideppressants when he knew I was relapsing, cause he stated that almost all antidepressants will potentiate opiates to a degree, but he would give me effexor, cause he was told it was excellent when used with opiate addicts and people with severe self destructive disorders, but in the end it appears that he may have been feeding me a soft form of opioids after all...

[jacky]

I am not trying to soap box that effexor will get you high like any opiate, or that this is new information, this is just new information for me, I notice that one of the reports is from 2002, which is around 7 or 8 years after my habituation to effexor. I am merely trying to state that there is some interaction, didnt really need any data to feel the withdrawl, and noticed it as something very similiar to other drugs that I have withdrawled from. My mom quit effexor, and is actually now taking mirtazapin, and she hasnt noticed the out of control tolerance with that compound compared to effexor, but I wonder, is a hellish withdrawl waiting for her when she quits this compound as well?

tramadol is suspected of serotonergic and dopaminergic interaction, and of course opioid, looking at the data, the very similiar compound venlefaxine is suspected of all these as well, this is NO suprise to me...but then I spent months on effexor, and as I stated before, I have watched people around me go down the same path to high tolerance that I experienced with this compound, then watched some of them experience the typical opiate like withdrawl effects...

as a matter of fact, a buddy at work last night told me he gave his freind my phone number, cause she is at her wits end trying to detox off, you guessed it, effexor...seems no one around her knows that this stuff could cause opiate like withdrawl symptoms. He being an ex heroin addict listened to her symptoms, and then stated, "you need to talk to Jacky, those sound like opiate side effects"...
this is happening to ALOT of people, and I think it is irresponsible for a doctor to give the stuff to people without warning them of the intense physical and mental habituation that this drug can enforce..

I dont think that effexor is an opiate par excellence, either is tramadol. but they have their place with the opioid interested perhaps ............

[jacky]

cornburgalur....

I can answer your post maybe, as I used effexor a few different times for months at a time (same with tramadol)....both times I used opiates at some point with the effexor.

one thing I noticed is that standard opiates like heroin DO NOT fully cover the effects of effexor withdrawl, I was using around 1/2 gram to a gram a day of heroin, and ran out of my effexor, and didnt want to go UA for another prescription and get clean of heroin just to get back on effexor....the withdrawls even when using heroin during withdrawls was shitty, mainly sever anxiety, trouble breathing, and it was hard to sleep, even when I took phenobarbital, and heroin, I still felt shitty for close to 9 days.

maybe the effexor would help with opiate withdrawls though, similiar to how I used tramadol to get off of oxys or methadone?

it is possible that the effexor is potentiating the pods perhaps? maybe effexor also can help with opiate tolerance?

when I kicked DXM after a little over a year of daily use (mainly around the 100 milligram a day amount) I noticed very similiar side effects to that of effexor withdrawl, mainly the spatial disorientation that leave a person feeling like they are recieving a shock every time they move their head.

so I really did not notice classic opiate effects from effexor, stimulation, a feeling of well being, and at times euphoric feelings related to the stimulation, the opiate like effect that I got from effexor was the opiate like withdrawl symptoms.

it is possible that effexor, similiar to other antideppressants, can potentiate the effects of some opiates/opioids, but I dont think on its own that it would provide opiate like euphoria.

one nice thing about effexor, is that when you take it, it is effective pretty much within the hour, compared to other antidep. that have to saturate your system for a few weeks before becoming fully active. It is similiar to many recreational drugs in this respect, you take it, and then you get a charge from it. I also noticed that effexor didnt have as negative effect on my sex life as say prozac did....

how much effexor are you on a day cornburgalur? if you dont mind me asking?

[malefiacrum]

When I first met my gf 5 years ago she was on Effexor, I made her quit though right away

[shaunclo]

I fuckin knew it, my doc tried to put me on effexor and I asked him right out, "Are these addictive IN ANY WAY???" He said, "No, not at all." I also told him that I have been reading that there ARE w/d symtpons associated with effexor and he said I was full of shit. Fuckin quacks, only going off of data. They have no hands on experience with any of this shit at all, and need only their little book they treat like the bible. Not everything needs to be backed up by a goddamn scientific link or something, thanks for the personal experience Jacky......as always.......S-M-O-O-C-H!!! ;)

[aj11]

When i was in the mental hospital my psych told me some people only respond to some new SNRI's at really high doses. She put me on 450 mgs!!!! I ran out for 2 days and the withdraw was horrible. It wasn't worse than kicking H but still very severe. No doc ever told me anything about wd's. or addictive ness. Your suppost to ween off of it over the period of 4 fuckng months. IN which time your depression gets worse than it was before you started taking it.

[jacky]

Id like to hear some chemists point of view on possible analogs of both tramadol and effexor that might be a bit more active as mu agonists..

these compounds tramadol and venlafaxine are cyclo hexanol derivatives, and can show up as PCP on a UA due to some similiar metabolite.

a dream compound would be a relative of these two that carry dissacotiative and opiate effects, along with the slight serotonergic/dopaminergic support.

[stvip]

I fuckin knew it, my doc tried to put me on effexor and I asked him right out, "Are these addictive IN ANY WAY???" He said, "No, not at all." I also told him that I have been reading that there ARE w/d symtpons associated with effexor and he said I was full of shit.

Your doctor is ignorant and negligent, tell him stvip says so. Note that withdrawal symptoms are not unique to venlafaxine, several antidepressants are known to be able to beget such, some to a severe extent.

dont think that effexor is an opiate par excellence, either is tramadol. but they have their place with the opioid interested perhaps ............

Jacky, see Paregoric Kid's reply. Tramadol (or more importantly, its M1 metabolite) are known MOR ligands. Venlafaxine, as far as I know (see citation in previous post), isn't . Many other antidepressants are known to have naloxone-reversible effects, as well as several non-narcotic analgesics.

As for derivatives of tramadol or venlafaxine:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10961373&query_hl=27&itool=pubmed_DocSum

By analogy, you might want to research O-desmethylvenlafaxine (which is a naturally occuring metabolite of venlafaxine).

This is certainly an area worthy of research, just don't jump to conclusions (nod into them). Also, abstracts almost always lack vital details, try gaining access to the full text articles.

Now - I must boldly go to sleep.

[shaunclo]

Yo STVIP, what is that avatar of, I just found myself staring at it thinking I see a stick figure in the middle of the 2 blending colors, AM I GOING MADD???

their coming to take me away, ha ha, their coming to take me away ha ha, ho, ho, he he, ha ha, THEIR COMING TO TAKE ME AWAY HA HA

[devilsdrug]

its ok hes there

[poppy]

I see him too!!

[stvip]

You're all fucking crazy, there's nothing pictured there! Sure, it does speak to me someti
what? Kill them all? But I don't want to. Oh, I see. Well, bye everyone, I need to go make some laudanum. Instead.

[Paregoric Kid]

effexor made me feel hollow, like a zombie, and tired all of the time. I hated it. I wish I felt stimulated on that stuff. they kept upping my dose and it just got worse. it was the worst med I've ever been put on, but others have had opposite experiences. the withdrawl was terrible, I had really bad anxiety, actually I think this was the start of my problems with anxiety. I had a horrible tingling sensation in the back of my head. sometimes I felt kind of high and it was just the weirdest experience of my life. I went to a local ER and they wanted to take CT scans of my head. I went to a better ER and they gave me ativan and I chilled out. the head feeling was still there but it went away about a week later. the withdrawl must have lasted a month and I was only on effexor maybe 3 or 4 months. I just quit taking it like I had with prozac.
bupropion made me feel stimulated, I take it off and on, it is structurally related to the amphetamines/phenethylamines and works on dopamine and norepinephrine and very weakly on sertonin. it was synthesized from meth/cathinone. I don't have a script for it though, because I'm not on insurance. but I use it for it's effects on dopamine since I may have low dopamine levels because I was on amphetamines daily for about 11 or 12 years. now I take amphetamine when I can, but not daily, that was weird.
in my opinion opiates/opioids, tramadol, amphetamines, bupropion, and 5-htp are much better for depression than any of the SSRIs/SNRIs
I've read the VENLAFAXINE AND MIRTAZAPINE study but I'm going to check the other study out soon.

[Paregoric Kid]

also, effexor withdrawls can be controlled by tapering down the dose and then switching to prozac for about a week and then discontinuing the prozac. this allegedly prevents, or at least highly diminsh, withdrawl from effexor.
there is a class action lawsuit against Wyeth, the makers of Effexor, for providing false and misleading information about the product. you can join the class action lawsuit and find more information about it here: http://www.pcalawfirm.com/new_page_1.htm

[MIVgezzer]

Hello everybody, let me introduce myself... MIV gezzer...
I'v been a "pro dope feind" for a while who was clean for a lot of years but am back into it because of a cronic pain problem assocated with cronic Lyme disease and back injurys.
I first noticed opioid withdrawl sideffects when taking it, and then having to quit it in jail.... ironically my doctor said that it was the best antideppressant for recovering addicts!!
I had a like problem with Zoloft in jail I was on 300 mg a day then they would not give it to me. I was tripin(trails, sparks, audio )along with the shocks,plus no sleep and depression ect,, The symtoms didn't go away untill the phyc put me back on the stuff 3 weeks later,100mg/day then the next day was alot better
then I met person after person who had become addicted to it. and had the opioid like withdrawl symptoms.
My W/D was diffrent then o p's but was were defintly W/D's with out the leg and arm jerks or sipnnin in one spot all night. They did give me librium for a week for the narcotics. But I still had the shocky rushes from the SSRI.
Without SSRI's like effexor or Zoloft I might have caped myself because of the non stop pain and depression from the Lyme an the ristrictions it put on my life.
I went off Effxor the last time I was in jail, the W/D was diffrent and my dose was not as high nor was I on it for years like the Zoloft the W/D from my morphine was a lot worse then normal though.My MD put me on Cymbalta but I stoped using it,,, it was supposed to help with my pain but I didn't notice enought of a diffrence to stay on it concidering most ssri's block the actions of my favorite fungi :D
Have a Great{full} Day

[Cornburglar]

heh corn is this on top of the rit or am i too fukkin nosy just curious as to all the interplay

Sorry dev, I didn't see this but yes, this is on top of the rit.

[Cornburglar]

cornburgalur....<snip

one nice thing about effexor, is that when you take it, it is effective pretty much within the hour, compared to other antidep. that have to saturate your system for a few weeks before becoming fully active.
On the same token, it is very easy to feel the mood stabilizing and anxiety reducing benefits slipping away if you take your effexor one day at 8am and the next day at 8pm. That 12 hours is enough to metabolize what you've got in there.

how much effexor are you on a day cornburgalur? if you dont mind me asking?
I don't mind at all. I titrated up from a starting dose of 37.5 mg qd x 1 week, this was with my 15 mg of lexapro as well. Then I did another week of 37.5mg qd x 1 week, then 75mg qd x 2 weeks then 150 mg qd ongoing. I've heard of doses being up into the 300 mg range. I'm not sure what the therapeutic range is but I know I'm near, if not at the bottom of the scale.

[Coddfish]

My buddy is on I wanna say 350mg effexor --it's over 300 anyway--, but he's got all kinds of weird shit going on with his brain due to an injury. Out of several he has tried, he says it's the only one that has ever worked for him. Corny's mention of 300 is the only thing I have heard that is even close.

[insanesteveo]

my doc just put me on effexor to help with my "anxiety" and that in turn is supposed to help me sleep. the only problem is im way less depressed and anxious now than i was in high school. and from reading here that stopping effexor makes you even more depressed and anxious, there is no way i want to keep taking these.

its only my 3rd day on them and i already had to get some klonopin so i could properly sleep(as i just toss and turn and keep stretching throughout the night, and day). plus it seems i have to smoke twice as much pot to get high and it just wears off faster. that pisses me off.

i had tried lexapro before this, and gave me the same feelings as effexor, but i had some ativan that probably helped alot. i also took some poppy tea one of the 4 days i was on lex, it was lower than my usual dose so i cant be sure what interaction there was.

[opiobsessed]

I tried effexor a year or two ago, my psychiatrist(who I dont see anymore)was very nice and sympathetic to the fact that both me of course and him noticed that opiates were the only miracle drug that cured my depression and made a new person out of me. Sad thing is as he said because of the narcotic laws, he can't just give me vicodin. He put me on effexor and he stated it acted in the brain similar to opiate like structure, I forgot what he technically said. Anyway when I tried effexor, it did nothing but give me a headache, made me tired, it took away my sex drive like opiates do but I dont care about that. I didn't notice any similar good mood at all like any opiate. I think my brain is all screwed up, of course I"m the most unusual one of a kind person one will ever meet anyway. I'm a junky with even worse dilemma than most. Not only am I always out of money to support my habit so I have to stay on suboxone, I also have schizotypal(sp)personality disorder and of course the depression, my past doctor said I may have even been a little autistic when I was growing up and my brain grew out of it alot. My handwriting is like a childs and I just think I'm really fucked in my fight to achieve happiness through the only drug that works for me, anyone here thinks they got it bad, imagine me hard to socialize with people making it next to impossible for me to find a trustworthy hookup without always getting ripped. Thank god the rop's are there, I was just lucky to find out about them because of the little talent I have with computers etc and sometimes coming up with ways around stuff. Now my doc has me on prozac with the sub and they both seem to be acting against each other.

[paperrabbit]

can't speak on effexor wd, but a similar little unlikely beast - tramadol - has some pretty bad motherfucking w/ds for such a shitty high. That's what I get for using it daily because it helped me not want to kill myself... but I tried to kick a while back and almost three weeks away I sank back in because of the crippling depression. :(