Starting on suboxone

[paroxetina]

Today I saw my psychiatrist, who I've been seeing for over 13 years - since childhood. Some of you may remember that I was caught stealing my parents prescriptions over thanksgiving. I tried to contact my psychiatrist at that point because I was quite distraught over the conflict that ensued. Long story short, he said he'd call, and he didn't.

I came "home" (where my parents live and where I grew up) for some doctors appointments this weekend. I had a few yesterday, and was able to see my psychiatrist this morning. By this time, I'd dealt with the conflict with my parents so I didn't have a lot to say on the matter, but I knew that my mother had contacted him after she discovered I'd taken the vics.

So when I saw him this morning, I asked what my mother had told him, and he relayed the conversation. He didn't really seem very concerned. As it happens, in the past few years my psychiatrist has taken an interest in adolescent substance abuse. He asked some details about what I use and why. When he asked why I like opiates, and how they make me feel, I told him that I like the pleasurable physical sensations of opiates and that they make me feel happy and motivated. They ease my depression. The only way my house ever gets cleaned is when I'm on opiates, seriously.

He completely shocked me by asking what I thought of trying suboxone. Of course, I said yes. After talking some more, he had me fill out some paperwork, go pick up my rx, and come back so I could take my first dose in his office.

He wrote me a script for 8mgs 1x/day, except for the first dose, which was written for 8mg + 8mg 30 minutes later. I got the pills and went back to his office to wait in the waiting room while he saw other patients. I took the first one, which was pretty disgusting. I couldn't hold that much saliva in my mouth for the 15 minutes it took the pill to dissolve so I ended up swallowing some of the saliva early on, but it definitely was still effective. 20 minutes in, my doctor came out and asked how I was feeling. I said I didn't feel anything yet, so he said to wait a bit longer. Almost right away, I started to feel a definite high. Bear in mind I haven't had anything in over 2 months (hence my opiophile absence).

It felt like a hydro high with a bit more sleepiness. He came back out after another 45 minutes, when he finished with another patient. I flashed him a big smile and he came over and looked at me carefully. I think he was looking at my pupils, which were pinned when I'd gone into the bathroom. He asked if I'd taken the second pill, and I said no, I didn't think I needed it. Truthfully, I would have taken it but I was afraid about driving home because I already felt quite drowsy. He asked me to call him tomorrow to see how I was doing,

We talked about refills, because I don't live in town, or even in the same time zone. He said to see how it helps and that he can call in refills as it's schedule III.

So that's where we left it. I took my dose (only the 8mg) about four hours ago, and I'm still feeling drowsy but not as euphoric.


My main question is, how long will this so-called "honeymoon phase" last - that is to say, how long will I keep feeling the high, given that I haven't used in about 2 months until now? Additionally, for those of you who get motivational boost from oxy and hydro (I don't get it from dilaudid or fent) and have also experienced it on subs, does that last even after you cease to get high?

Also, what does it feel like after a few months of taking subs, assuming I take them as directed? Is there any "high" feeling at all, or are the cravings just reduced?

[lespaulpower]

The first few days for me were GREAT. I was high as hell for those few days. I've always had an exclusive passion for opiates for much of the same reason as you. I feel they give me a sense of drive, motivation, inspiration, and self confidence. Basically just all around "GOOD" in a pill. Almost like a "perfect" pill.

But yeah, after a few days, you'll start getting used to it and not feel it as much. I mean, you will feel fine; as in "normal", probably even a good mood boost but by no mean "high" anymore (depending on what you consider "high" - to me, after being "sick", just getting well again feels like being "high") if you get what Im telling you.

But anyhow, some people say theres really no euphoria with bupe, I say the IS. Even after months of taking it daily (same dose as you). I find that the longer you wait between doses, the better the dose feels. Subs will do an awesome job at supressing cravings and eliminating withdrawal.

Ive been on for a few months and I still look forward to my daily doses.

[Suboxstitute]

There is a WEALTH of info in the bupe section of opiphile..... some posts are stickied at the top.

Honeymoon phase? After a few days, it generally is over and there is no euphoria to speak of. If your dose is anywhere near correct you should have zero cravings (I have never had any), no desire to to go back. Then again, I am still on the stuff after a year+.

The only euphoria I still ever get any more is if I've been out for a few days, get my script, and take two just as a first day "treat". And that isn't really euphoria - it's more like simply energy.

You should try VERY HARD to reduce your dose yourself (while accepting what the doc gives you for "rainy days".)

Docs start people out WAY TOO HIGH it sounds like you took 16mg the first day which is not at all unusual (I had 24mg, which I very quickly reduced to 12mg on my own with no ill effects.)

I don't have much time, so I can't go into more right now, but I would try for a shorter period on subs that what the doc might recommend, and a lower dose. At the beginning, depending on the extent and duration of your habit (and what you were taking, sorry if I missed it) 4mg should be plenty.

I hate to see people struggle through years of sub 'cause they started on a high dose and then had to taper (even though the doctors, who i suspect are bought and paid for by Reckitt, the only manufacturer for now)...

Read, read, read as MUCH AS YOU CAN on the net, and on this site, before you decide to stay on subs long term. Yes, they ARE a miracle for getting out of W/Ds, but they can also be a trap.

I know. I am in the trap, and trying to get below 4mg, then 2mg. I've already starting skipping two days a week without ill effects since the half life is long.

GOOD LUCK and read both the pros and cons of this interesting drug.

Sue

[Opiyum]

I think your going to regret this decision. Staying on them for any time longer than a month is going to be a bad idea. The high you got is not going to last and because it can be so sedating (hard to even keep your head up) it can be rather annoying anyway.
You really should consider getting off these immediately. That's just my opinion for whatever its worth.

[nick]

I think your going to regret this decision. Staying on them for any time longer than a month is going to be a bad idea. The high you got is not going to last and because it can be so sedating (hard to even keep your head up) it can be rather annoying anyway.
You really should consider getting off these immediately. That's just my opinion for whatever its worth.

Yeah,what the big O says.

[lespaulpower]

The suboxone thing really has to be YOUR decision to make. It's definitely not for everyone, but its a wonderful tool for some people, including myself.

By developing a psychological and physiological dependence to opioids; we've completely "rewired" our brains and that takes a long time to fix, even if "fixing" is possible. I see the subs as a tool to keep my head straight and life on track while I address all the other aspects of addiction and gather all the tools I'm going to need in the future before Im ready to taper off.

According to my doc, he wants to see me on it for at least 1.5 to 2 years.

Kinda like - Get on, get your shit together and get off....

[Suboxstitute]

ONE advantage to sub (and people do come off of it; it's just not easy, less intense w/ds but longer) is that while you are on it, you can begin to re-start your life, possibly get your act together as was mentioned above, begin to stabilize financially, (if you have access to insurance in some form) etc. - since you're not worried about where your next fix is coming from or whether you're gonna get beat up or conned getting it/

My doctor has a mandatory "sub group" - we're all on it, various stages and dosages. The guy I always sit with (seems like) DID use the time he was on sub to do all the things listed above. He got down to 1mg every other day and quit and has been clean for quite a while now, but he still comes to group since he likes it more than NA, etc.

I am not a Pollyanna bupe booster. But I do know that the benefits above bought me time. NOW I WANT OFF and I'm trying hard!

Sue

[Poppylvr]

.

My main question is, how long will this so-called "honeymoon phase" last - that is to say, how long will I keep feeling the high, given that I haven't used in about 2 months until now? Additionally, for those of you who get motivational boost from oxy and hydro (I don't get it from dilaudid or fent) and have also experienced it on subs, does that last even after you cease to get high?

Also, what does it feel like after a few months of taking subs, assuming I take them as directed? Is there any "high" feeling at all, or are the cravings just reduced?
Hi Paroxetina
Your story sounds very similar to mine. I began subs last January because I was hoping it would help with my depression and it would control my cravings for opiates.
For me, the honeymoon lasted about 6 months. During that time my doc allowed me to increase from the 2 mg/day I started at to 8mg/day now. I did that becasue after many weeks of taking 2, I tried 4 - got euphoria-then 6 then 8. I then fell into a habit of taking less during the week (4-6) and using more sub on the weekend; doc has been aware & OK about it.
I too was one who got an energetic euphoria from oxycodone but never from hydrocodone. The high from morphine was more of a feel normal kinda thaing than a high.
The Suboxone has STOPPED my cravings for opiates. Unfortunately, it has also made me have no motivation. My house is very dirty and I have become a slug. I have gained probably 20 pounds. Most importantly it has dropped my libido. Once I restarted prozac over the summer, my libido is GONE and this is a very bad thing.
So now at 13 months in, I am ready to get off. And I have an 8 mg/day habit. I see my psychiatrist Tuesday and am going to ask for help tapering. I think he will pretty much prescribe anything but oxycodone:D!!!
I say if the Suboxone is helping you right now, consider a short time on it. Then again, I can also see Opiyum & Nick's opinion as being correct. It's really up to you; if it works and you can avoid abusing it like I did, great!

[OCintheOC]

i dont want to burst your bubble. but i was on oxy for years and switched to sub..the honeymoon lasted a month or so..i think i was so used to that opiate HIGH that it just didnt compare. i also lost my motivation and got soo depressed. the only thing that helped was using oxy again. i am not a typical case and everyone is diff. i have a friend who was sucessful on sub. im just letting you know. mdone was the only thing that has worked for me. if you were just using vikes i think you are within help and hopes grip.! i wish you well it will work if you MAKE IT WORK FOR YOU

[paroxetina]

Definitely a variety of opinions here. Many things to think about. Let me give an update on how the past few days have gone.

I started with the single 8mg dose at my shrink's office, which left me with an hour or so of that euphoric, energetic feeling. Within a couple hours I started to have severe nausea and vomited several times. I don't see this as a bad thing, since I'm trying to lose weight and anything that reduces my appetite is quite welcome. I've also had an extreme lethargy and I spent the first 36 hours nodding off. I was so paranoid that I was going to miss the boarding of my plane because I couldn't stay awake. I was in no shape to be driving home from the airport, but I didn't have a choice, and I did make it home safely - I forced myself to talk out loud while driving to stay alert.

My shrink asked me to call him and check in yesterday, which I did. I told him about the nausea and vomiting and he said normally that only happens when you have other opiates in your system (which I did not) but that it can be a side effect all on its own too. I'm supposed to be checking in with him periodically.

Since the initial dose I've taken a couple very small pieces of pill - I would say less than 2 mg total. I'm aware of the long half-life of subs, and I'm just now, over 48 hours since the 2 mg dose, starting to feel alert and normal again. I had to take today off work because I was too groggy to function. My pupils are still pinned.

So I'm concluding that 8mg is waaaaay too much given that I'd had about 8 weeks clean. I'm going to try breaking the pills into 1mg doses and going with that for a while.

Thanks so much for the opinions everyone. I am having serious second thoughts about whether I really want to be doing this.

[Opiyum]

I just can't understand ever wanting to get on this drug unless your strung out and trying to get your life in order knowing that you will have to kick sometime in the future when your in a better place.
I wish you the best but I think staying on this any longer than a few weeks is going to put you in a worse position than you were prior to taking the subs.
First do no harm my ass.
Ask your doctor what he plans on doing for you when you decide you don't want to take subs anymore? Ask what you should expect from WD's?
I'd love to hear his answers.

[Papa Verine]

It's almost a waste of time to ask. Because everybody reacts so differently to it, the only way to find out how it's going to work for you is to take it yourself.

But, my opinion is that suboxone is complete SHIT! I just threw some away the other day because I didn't want to look at it anymore.

[Indy]

It's almost a waste of time to ask. Because everybody reacts so differently to it, the only way to find out how it's going to work for you is to take it yourself.

But, my opinion is that suboxone is complete SHIT! I just threw some away the other day because I didn't want to look at it anymore.

Oh opiate gods, forgive him, he knows not what he does;)

[paroxetina]

Oh opiate gods, forgive him, he knows not what he does;)

Lol, no kidding - I can't imagine any situation in which I would throw out an opioid! Never know when something could come in handy.

[Papa Verine]

If I get ahold of any more I'm gonna flush those too:)

[Poppylvr]

Oh opiate gods, forgive him, he knows not what he does;)
:D:D Props Indy for funniest post in awhile!

[lespaulpower]

If I get ahold of any more I'm gonna flush those too:)

Papa,

I hope you dont mind me asking, but what exactly do you not like about subs? (and I ask this in the nicest way) :)

[nick]

To be honest,I'd really like to know why your shrink is giving you subs.You say you've been clean for 2 months,so this amounts to re-addicting you and the only justification for this is that you're suffering from depression and cravings that are ruining your life.

There's a lot of anecdotal evidence that bup is very hard to completely kick.So,no disrespect,but I'll be very interested to see if Sue's and Poppy's opinions change when or if they get "clean" and try to leave maintenance behind.

I wish you all the best,but suspect you are all about to discover that,in the words of T.S. Eliot,between the idea and reality falls the shadow.

[roxi*stardust]

Papa,

I hope you dont mind me asking, but what exactly do you not like about subs? (and I ask this in the nicest way) :)


I agree with Papa, in fact I flushed some Subs I had here not all that long ago. Short answer, they make some of us feel worse not better. It's almost like they even block the body's endogenous opioids. I suspect there are more people than just Papa and I that experience this.

[Papa Verine]

Hey lespaul you do not have to say you're asking in the nicest possible way or anything like that. Anybody here can ask me "why" anytime I write anything.

Roxi is right. It made me feel worse, not better. I waited 3-4 days with no poppy tea. I was well into withdrawals. I didn't dose too soon. The suboxone gave me a severe headache. I'm not exaggerating the headache, it was what I'd guess a migraine is like. Much worse then I usually experience. I got real bad leg aches. I didn't have real bad leg aches when I dosed. I was well into my withdrawals and it just wasn't something I got with normal w/d's. My legs were OK. And to top this all off my withdrawals didn't go away. I felt them partially go away. Some of my symptoms went away, I'd say most of them. But with the migraine, the leg aches and still feeling like general shit I felt I'd be better off just taking the withdrawals I had coming from my tea and dealing with it. At least I was very familiar with it.

[runormal]

I just got off of subs and on to MMT. What a world of difference. Subs were keeping me in opiate purgatory for lack of a better word. Every day I was on them I felt like I was right on the verge of needing to use and I also never felt totally sober either.

You know when you're watching a DVD and it stops: the screen gets frozen and you can tell the DVD player is trying to get past it. So you sit there and wait to see if it will fix itself because getting up and starting the movie over again is a pain in the ass IF it will resume playing.... seconds keep going by and you say OK by now it should start playing again - I even get a bit anxious when this happens - well that is what being on Subs was like for me. Frozen in time. Pressing the buttons on the remote control doesn't end up helping either.

IF you don't like the way the subs make you feel mentally address it as soon as you can because it doesn't go away. Don't get talked into riding it out for a few months to see if you feel better because then you are really going to be needing them. The headaches probably will go away but the anxious nervous not quite yourself mood will stick around and for what subs cost no one should have to settle for feeling like that.

[paroxetina]

To be honest,I'd really like to know why your shrink is giving you subs.You say you've been clean for 2 months,so this amounts to re-addicting you and the only justification for this is that you're suffering from depression and cravings that are ruining your life.

There's a lot of anecdotal evidence that bup is very hard to completely kick.So,no disrespect,but I'll be very interested to see if Sue's and Poppy's opinions change when or if they get "clean" and try to leave maintenance behind.

I wish you all the best,but suspect you are all about to discover that,in the words of T.S. Eliot,between the idea and reality falls the shadow.

The rationale is that I function at a much higher level when I'm on opiates. They seem to greatly alleviate my depression, which I've struggled with my entire life. My doctor would prefer that I try subs than to continue doing whatever I have to to get my hands on opiates. if it doesn't work, no big deal.

[Poppylvr]

So an update: Just saw the shrink. Explained my rationale for quitting the subs: NO libido, loss of orgasm, general all around slug/blah feeling, don't want to be addicted anymore.
He surprised the hell out of me by saying it's the prozac that has killed your libido, and I do NOT want you to stop suboxone. It is an antidepressant in it's own right.
What he is having me do is to drop the prozac dose weekly over the next several weeks to find the dose that keeps my mood level & allows me to make love again. I was SO surprised, I figured he's be happy to have me off the subs.
NICK: you addressed my biggest fear for when it IS time to come off subs. I am frightened about the long term withdrawals, and the "Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome". I had PAWS for about 3 months after I came off IV morphine, so I'm afraid of a year of that shit once I quit the subs. Even though he doesn't want me to STOP the subs I think I will try to decrease to 6 mg daily as I can. PS - he told me he weans people off subs over ONE YEAR!
The back story is he's been my doc for 20+ years now, all through my years of active addiction, felony arrest, almost losing everything etc. He said "I'm more concerned that you might lose control with opiates right now". For him it's not a finanaical gain - unlike many suboxone docs, he just charges a regular med visit (~75$). We have no copay because we're double insured. So he definitely isn't making any money off of seeing me.
Paroxetina: whatever works for you, sweetie. I would say Suboxone was definitely a lifesaver for me a year ago, between my horrible cravings and depression. I was teetering on the edge of stealing drugs again, which would have sent me to prison, and seriously fucked with my wonderful life. For me, the subs have STOPPED the cravings, thank God. I wish you the best as you figure out what works for you.

[nick]

The rationale is that I function at a much higher level when I'm on opiates. They seem to greatly alleviate my depression, which I've struggled with my entire life. My doctor would prefer that I try subs than to continue doing whatever I have to to get my hands on opiates. if it doesn't work, no big deal.



Look,it's your life,but this situation is fubar and I believe,from what you say,that your shrink is being reckless.

Have you been on maintenance before?

[rockbottom]

imo maintenance is a trap no high but hella addiction im 100% pro detox and 100% against maintenance at least with the maintenance drugs we have here -----i dont wanna start a fight thats just my opinion----good luck

[lespaulpower]

Hey lespaul you do not have to say you're asking in the nicest possible way or anything like that. Anybody here can ask me "why" anytime I write anything.

Roxi is right. It made me feel worse, not better. I waited 3-4 days with no poppy tea. I was well into withdrawals. I didn't dose too soon. The suboxone gave me a severe headache. I'm not exaggerating the headache, it was what I'd guess a migraine is like. Much worse then I usually experience. I got real bad leg aches. I didn't have real bad leg aches when I dosed. I was well into my withdrawals and it just wasn't something I got with normal w/d's. My legs were OK. And to top this all off my withdrawals didn't go away. I felt them partially go away. Some of my symptoms went away, I'd say most of them. But with the migraine, the leg aches and still feeling like general shit I felt I'd be better off just taking the withdrawals I had coming from my tea and dealing with it. At least I was very familiar with it.


Wow. I've never knew about the people with ill effects from it.

I'm glad I'm not one. Hey, at least theres methadone.

[paroxetina]

Look,it's your life,but this situation is fubar and I believe,from what you say,that your shrink is being reckless.

Have you been on maintenance before?

No, I've not been on maintenance before. I've been with my psychiatrist for 12-13 years now and I trust him. There's certainly no financial motivation - he's been seeing me for free for a long time now. I don't think he's billed my insurance in years.

I appreciate all the input, but I think we'll just have to wait and see what happens now.

[nick]

No, I've not been on maintenance before. I've been with my psychiatrist for 12-13 years now and I trust him. There's certainly no financial motivation - he's been seeing me for free for a long time now. I don't think he's billed my insurance in years.

I appreciate all the input, but I think we'll just have to wait and see what happens now.

Please just remember that taking subs is like taking any other powerful opiate and everyday you take it.......the harder it is to stop and one day you may want to stop.

[paroxetina]

Please just remember that taking subs is like taking any other powerful opiate and everyday you take it.......the harder it is to stop and one day you may want to stop.

I will. Thanks.

[oxy kid]

I have noticed that occasionally lately I have started to get a little high from my suboxone. it may be 100% placebo because of how much I've been daydreaming about huge piles of oxy, but who knows. ha

[austinslacker]

First started at 16mg/day. He upped it to to 24 mg which I'm on. Been on 4mg subs with 1 mg . Makes it 12 mg with 3 mg a day. Something's gotta be wrong with me. This me the best high and NOD. I had heard least amount gave great high, simply added the alprazolam. Now I I'm always nodding on 12mg sub with 3 mg xanax. Also have left overs every month.

[roxi*stardust]

I just got off of subs and on to MMT. What a world of difference. Subs were keeping me in opiate purgatory for lack of a better word. Every day I was on them I felt like I was right on the verge of needing to use and I also never felt totally sober either.

You know when you're watching a DVD and it stops: the screen gets frozen and you can tell the DVD player is trying to get past it. So you sit there and wait to see if it will fix itself because getting up and starting the movie over again is a pain in the ass IF it will resume playing.... seconds keep going by and you say OK by now it should start playing again - I even get a bit anxious when this happens - well that is what being on Subs was like for me. Frozen in time. Pressing the buttons on the remote control doesn't end up helping either.

IF you don't like the way the subs make you feel mentally address it as soon as you can because it doesn't go away. Don't get talked into riding it out for a few months to see if you feel better because then you are really going to be needing them. The headaches probably will go away but the anxious nervous not quite yourself mood will stick around and for what subs cost no one should have to settle for feeling like that.
Wow. I've never knew about the people with ill effects from it.

I'm glad I'm not one. Hey, at least theres methadone.


The difference between Suboxone and Methadone for me was like day and night. Like runormal said on Suboxone I felt like I was in hell. I never felt well, I constantly craved my DOC, oxycodone. I continued to use on the Suboxone because I never felt right. I was mentally a disaster!

[Suboxstitute]

To be honest,I'd really like to know why your shrink is giving you subs.You say you've been clean for 2 months,so this amounts to re-addicting you and the only justification for this is that you're suffering from depression and cravings that are ruining your life.

There's a lot of anecdotal evidence that bup is very hard to completely kick.So,no disrespect,but I'll be very interested to see if Sue's and Poppy's opinions change when or if they get "clean" and try to leave maintenance behind.

I wish you all the best,but suspect you are all about to discover that,in the words of T.S. Eliot,between the idea and reality falls the shadow.

Nick - I agree with you (although for God's sake I wasn't two months clean when I started.... I was dope sick as hell, and didn't know then what I know now.) Sub seemed to be the answer - I thought "4-6 mos and I'm done.

No one in the clinic machine wanted me to put it behind me. Why would they??? Mandatory monthly individual counselor=$124/month, doctor to write script for 3 minutes = $154.... and the sub group = about $100 per session, 6 mos at a time. Wanting off? Priceless. Meds covered by insurance (blessing!)

I AM going to leave maintenance behind, in the next 4 mos. I'll have protracted w/ds, PAWS. I hope I can manage (I'll jump off when I'm on other day or less, and the dosage 1mg or less) and I'll have my friendly benzos to help. WISH ME LUCK! I've already starting skipping two days a week. And I don't really mis it, much.

Sue

[libertine]

I completely agree with Papa Verine and Roxi, I have been on subs for almost 4 months, and I definitely feel much worse than better. I am in the midst of trying to transition to methadone myself, I've used it for a couple of weeks when trying to get off of tar and loved it, no cravings, no shitty bupe anxiety, but my dad thinks that I just "want more drugs" and is against it even though I try to explain to him that the suboxone makes me lethargic, depressed, anxious and generally makes me feel like shit, I'm still going to get on it though, even if i have to walk to the clinic...

[libertine]

Bupe sets the stage mentally for a disastrous and unsatisfying relaspe, again and again, and going back after using just makes it worse, i hate the taste, i hate the smell, i hate suboxone.

[libertine]

but love t.s. eliot:)