IV'ing hydrocodone, risk of PE

[Synack]

I've been told that with IV'ing hydrocodone - there is a risk of pulmonary edema. Now, SWIM has been in wicked w/d's - even missing a sis-in-laws wedding reception & family photos. Today, she surprised swim with a JUST FILLED bottle of 15# hydrocodone 5/500's - from a refill 2 months after having teeth extracted (what a jackass doc, only giving her hydro) - but there was a refill :).

Anyways, SWIM would like to attempt (keyword) to IV 15mg of hydrocodone after a few CWE's to extract as much APAP as possible.

How likely is the risk of pulmonary edema - and if it occured - would SWIM have time to go to the ER - or would he tap out in a few minutes post injection?

I've personally warned SWIM against this, but his junkie side is taking over...

[bigNasty]

why does swim wanna risk a PE for 15mg's of hydro when you can just eat it?

[Synack]

Limited ammounts of hydrocodone (15#) to last until tuesday.

[bigNasty]

OK i've had a friend do it but she said it wasn't any different than just eating it. I wonder if it might be weaker since your liver converts some of it to hydromorph

[Natas666]

why does swim wanna risk a PE for 15mg's of hydro when you can just eat it?

For a lousy 15 mg, that is the definition of a junkie-I would just eat them and if use some potentiator's to make them last.NO way would the risk be worth it IMHO

[Chemical_Boy]

eat em.

I think it would go farther anyway. Not to mention that if you are an IV drug user, I doubt that you would feel 15mg hydro by either route. With the oral bioav' of hydro being so good, and the dangers of IV hydro being so high, why bother for something that ain't going to really do anything anyway? And that is coming from a junkie who has very little regard for safety if it means there is a potential buzz involved.

Back before I knew better, I did a cwe on 10 5/500 watsons. I sucked up a nasty, milky mixture out of the paste with a 3 mL rig and shot that into my arm. Didn't feel anything that I could really tell. I then regretted that I didn't just eat them, as 50 mg of hydro would have had me feeling pretty good.

Oh well.

About the only thing that 15 mg of hydrocodone is good for would be to keep away the WDs.. .

[Synack]

eat em.

About the only thing that 15 mg of hydrocodone is good for would be to keep away the WDs.. .

which is why I'm limited to 15mg... gotta make 'em last...

[Chemical_Boy]

which is why I'm limited to 15mg... gotta make 'em last...


Yeah, my friend.... I would just eat them. For keeping WD at bay, they would be better eaten anyhow, since they will last a little longer.


That be my advice.

Good luck and have fun.


Or feel better!!!

[erica]

I agree. There is absolutely no point in shooting this when you can just eat it and have at least, a longer lasting effect. Besides, if you're doing hydrocodone in the first place, you probably will get something out of it.

If you're so concerned with lasting until tuesday or whatever, then you shouldn't be concerned about getting high...you should be worried about simply maintaining. And taking 4 hydros or whatever a day should keep you from getting really dopesick...It would help if you told us your tolerance.
PE is NOT worth risking, whether the correlation between IVing hydrocodone and PE is true or not.

[Chemical_Boy]

I agree. There is absolutely no point in shooting this when you can just eat it and have at least, a longer lasting effect. Besides, if you're doing hydrocodone in the first place, you probably will get something out of it.

If you're so concerned with lasting until tuesday or whatever, then you shouldn't be concerned about getting high...you should be worried about simply maintaining. And taking 4 hydros or whatever a day should keep you from getting really dopesick...It would help if you told us your tolerance.
PE is NOT worth risking, whether the correlation between IVing hydrocodone and PE is true or not.


I would love to have a couple 15mg doses of hydro around even if I was super sick. It would help a ton.

[roxi*stardust]

IVing Hydrocodone is really of no benefit. It has a very high oral bio-availablity, comparable to that of Oxycodone. Even if you managed to clean those tablets enough to IV there is a risk of PE just like ther is with Codeine. Other risks are the same as those of Codeine; iincreased presssure in the cerebrospinal fuild, stroke, aneurysm, extremely painful headaches. That is of course if you live. Taking those Vicodin orally is the most efficient ROA, the only other ROA that I would consider is rectal. Do you CWE and plug those things.

[ka11ink]

Ya what the other guy said, I think some is changed to hydromorphone by the liver.

[Poppylvr]

I've personally warned SWIM against this, but his junkie side is taking over...
Hiya love.
I googles searched and beloved Epocrates searched and did not find any red flags about IVing a hydrocodone/acetominophen pulmonary edema link HOWEVER the IVing of pills even with CWE and an IV wheel filter is a bad idea because of the particulate matter that could increase your risk of as pulmonary embolism.
I join the crowd saying take them orally.
Good luck, may you have minimal wd's.

[edhorfin]

pretty sure the jury;s back: eat them...maybe take a couple of loperamide with them? Who knows, you may convince some of that stuff to jump across the BBB if it gets mixed up with the hydro.

Def last lots longer orally....admit it, you really just want to feel a rush. Dont blame you.

[roxi*stardust]

Hiya love.
I googles searched and beloved Epocrates searched and did not find any red flags about IVing a hydrocodone/acetominophen pulmonary edema link HOWEVER the IVing of pills even with CWE and an IV wheel filter is a bad idea because of the particulate matter that could increase your risk of as pulmonary embolism.
I join the crowd saying take them orally.
Good luck, may you have minimal wd's.

Right ^^^ Plus remember Hydocodone and Codeine are closely related so Hydrocodone and Codeine share many of the same risks when IV'd, including PE.

Archived topic here: http://forum.opiophile.org/archive/index.php/t-6250.html

Heroin Helper's position is the same as mine because of Hydro and Codeine's relationship.:
http://www.heroinhelper.com/curious/chemistry/vicodin.shtml

[bronyraur]

I'll smack SWIM's ass around if he IV's them....not worth it at all. Just take them orally or CWE and plug them.

[tonyk]

changed me mind!

[oxy kid]

along with everyone else....eat them.

Or even break them down and snort them before you shoot them!

[resorcinol]

I agree that they should just be eaten HOWEVER

Hydrocodone does NOT carry the same risk of PE as codeine if used by IV. It more resmbles oxycodone in in vivo behavior than codeine. I me christ, oxycodone is just 14-OH substituted hydrocodone which only increases agonist potency... it wouldn't magically turn a drug that can cause PE by IV into one that won't (that substitutiton). Also if one was to IV, hydrocodone mostly causes its own effects (not a prodrug), and you'd still get the hydrocodone metabolite anyway since all blood filters through the liver at some point.

Codeine is a high PE risk because of its unusual efficacy of eliciting histamine release (beleive the double bond at 7 to 8 is behind this) combined with the high dose necessary to get effects. The methylether only makes it more efficacious at releasing histamine, but even morphine is pretty good at releasing histamine compared to other drugs leading me to believe a double bond at said position plays into it too. Morphine is much more potent though and doesn't have the further histamine releasing boost caused by the methylether, so it's safe to shoot (morphine I mean).

Codeine basically has the perfect structure to coax mast cells into releasing histamine... that deadly combo of a double bond at abovementioned position and a methylether at 3 does it. This makes codeine extremely unsafe to shoot IV (it's pointless anyway since codeine IS a prodrug).

Hydrocodone isn't a prodrug. It has 1/10 the agonist potency at the mu receptor as morphine, codeine has 1/100 the agonist potency. Big difference. Yes hydromorphone is produced but it's a very minor metabolite (it accounts for maybe 30% of hydrocodones total potency, which is why it's more potent than the 1/10 agonist potency vs morphine would imply). IV hydro would hit immediately but there probably wouldn't be any rush due to it not being super potent and slow passage accross the BBB (pethidine is weaker than hydrocodone and has a rush just because it crosses the bbb so well).

I'm not recommending IV hydro because it is pointless and because of the medium it comes from (it's low doses mixed with lots of filler and apap) -- that's what makes it dangerous. I needed to clear up the PE stuff though... now let me add a correlary ... ALL opioids COULD cause PE when used by IV! Codeine just has such a disproportionaltely high risk of it happening compared to others that its a concern and it's unsafe to introduce directly into the bloodstrem.

Hydrocodone as a chemical though -- is more similar to oxycodone in every way than it is to codeine. It's chemically closer to oxycodone (single bond at 7-8, carbonyl at 6), its metabolism is more like oxycodone's than codeine's, and its pharmacodynamics are more like oxycodone's (just less potent by about half). It's effects are more like oxycodone's too. Hydrocodone is light years more euphoric AND potent than codeine and has no real ceiling effect (only a point, probably around 400 to 600 mg, where side effects would overwhelm euphoric and analgesic effects... but needing that much hydro means you've got a big tolerance anyway).

I probably sound bitchy right about now, but I hate seeing poor hydrocodone getting hated on. Yeah if you've been blasting dilaudid and heroin in high doses it's gonna underwhelm you -- but not long after hydrocodone underwhelms you, oxycodone will become underwhelming too. Heroin and hydromorphone are just extremely potent. That doesn't mean hydrocodone is weak. HydroContin preparation with doses exactly double those of OxyContin would be a highly abusable pharmaceutical if your tolerance isn't super high from stuff like banging D or H or smoking fent. The preps hydrocodone comes in give it a bad rap and it bugs the hell out of me. CWE on 150 mg hydrocodone from Norco had me warm and fuzzy when I ran out of fent early a few months ago (patches fell off -- have that problem licked now) and I was on 37 mcg per hour at the time. Grrr!

/soapbox

[tonyk]

WOW!!! Just read thru yer post, I AM IMPRESSED!!! You sure know your drugs!!
I'm not worthy...I'm not worthy..I'mnotworthy!