kicking bup with 'done

[chopstix]

So hell froze over and I'm attempting a done detox, I can't fucking get under .5mg bup (I know that sounds ridiculous, I'm quite sure that it's because I've been on it for over a year, and I'm really pre-disposed to dopesickness due to a long history of abuse and kicks - I can be clean for months on end and then one $20 shot will make me dopesick the next day). I have a hard time being consistent with my own meds and I think that's part of the problem; so I picked up some md, drew up a taper chart and handed it over to someone else to dispense - I fucking HATE methadone, but I'm at a loss and having a really hard time kicking the bup. Some days I feel like a fucking wuss for not being able to just sack up and walk it off but the anxiety and nausea get to me, the nausea especially, it gets really bad really quick.. It's really not ok to just randomly gag and puke in public places, ya know?? Sucks cause it's a new symptom that I picked up from this last run, I got really strung out on poppy tea (at first, this run has been about three years and at the peak I was using 2+ grams black/day), and now I'm a total weak-ass stomached zook monster when I'm even remotely dopesick.. 20 years of shooting dope and I've never had such a problem with nauseau, fucked up how every run seems to bring on new symptoms, anyway..

So I figured I'd document this. I don't think bup dependency is really fully understood and heavily underestimated by most of the medical community.

Some will probably laugh at these doses but fuck it, the wd is real and I got shit to do. Just before I started I was steady at .5-1mg bup insufflated/day, tho I'd usually dose with a little ativan or xanax (~1mg) and I *always* feel the bup, everyday, I get a nice glow that lasts for hours - FWEIW, I've never taken more than 6mg in a 24hr period..

When I copped the md I slipped up and did some dope, and then the next day I ate 35mg of the done and got really ripped, so I kinda started this detox out by jacking up my tolerance a bit which could help explain some of what I'm dealing with now.

It's been about 5 days now since I started the detox, I have a rough idea of what I'm taking but keeping it "blind" intentionally as I don't want to get hung up on exactly what I'm taking and exactly what the schedule is. The person who's dispensing understands this and is working with me, yesterday I said "i feel like shit" and we agreed to hold whatever I'm at for a couple days. I'm guessing it's right around 10mg right now and I'm not sleeping very well (dosing in the am) and I feel like shit at the 20hr mark, by 24 hrs I have to wait a good hour or two before I can hold anything down although I'm not in like full blown wd.

Anyway, I figured I'd post as I've seen this mentioned a couple times and it's kind of an interesting subject, that people are turning to fucking methadone to get off bup..

I started at 15 mg and currently at ~10 with 15 days to go.. I'll update this in a few days..

[gnat]

Best of luck to you... I used short acting meds to get off of bupe. I'm on day 13 of no meds at all and about 30 days of no bupe yet I still ache some. Comfort meds made all the difference for me - xanax, soma, neurontin, ibuprofen, psudafed, immodium. Keep us posted!

[Beefcake1004]

I posted a similar thread(under Methadone Forum) where I was contemplating using the Done to come off Subs with a 7 day taper detox. I never used the Done except for one time so I thought it could possibly work. I actually just came off a 14 day relapse with Oxys and Dope(IV for the 1st time) last Thursday night(I did use Ketamine for the first 36 hours and it worked great-I actually have an experiment that was done on this exact issue. I basically felt sober with no sweats, no anxiety,no depression) and I was able to lower my Sub dosage and lessen my time in between doses. My Opiate dosages were like 4-7 80's a day and like 12-16 bags of Dope(and one or two bags at the most felt just as good as one Oxy 80) In the beginning of my past detoxes I would have to do like 2-3 8 mgs for the first three days and had a hard time for the first 2-3 weeks to not dose in the early evening(around 8-10 hours after 1st dose). I woulsd always seem to sweat sometimes especially after a shower or eating hot food. This time I used 4-6 mgs the first day, and 4 mgs the second, and after the 72 hour mark I was able to settle in @ 2 mgs. I will request you as a friend and hopefully you can do the same and we can put our minds together. IWANT NOTHING MORE TO COME OFF THIS SUPPOSED WEAK OPIOD. I have been on and off it as a maintenance since 4/07 with like 2-7 days of relapsing with Oxys. I had a guy that swore to me he used the done as a 7 day detox and came off Subs with success and he was doing like 16 mgs of Subs. Some people just lie though. Let's talk. Check your mail when you can. Hang in there

[Duckfeet]

Yep: me too, Chops, and I guess u know that...I've gone from being the biggest fan of buprenorphene...to wondering just how much they really know about this drug...and I got *really* pissed off, when I was detoxing off of bupe, and saying how it wasn't shit...and the guys over on heroin-detox.com, in the bupe forum, would say: u just wait: you aren't off it yet... but I figured I had got down to 1mg fairly easy, and knew I was a tough cookie, and could kick, no sweat...and hell, I'd paid meditox $5,000 for just this little adventure, so I had a lot at stake...

But they were right...I hadn't felt anything for a while, on bupe, so I figured, u know.."how bad could it be???" Well, it was bad enough to drive me back to heroin...and finally I just gave up, and went back on the dreaded methadone--which I hate, generally--broke out the old enema bar, and the golitely, and the ice cream spoon, and the t.v. remote...hung up my swimfins and hunkered down on methadone...and did what you are now doing, except a little slower...but I *know* methadone, and it's never been *that* bad...just takes a while..

Don't rush it, tempting tho that might be...I wouldn't drop from where you are at, but about 2-3 mg a week..but in any case,
good luck, old friend...


So hell froze over and I'm attempting a done detox,

<snip snip>

I started at 15 mg and currently at ~10 with 15 days to go.. I'll update this in a few days..

[InfectedMushroom]

Good luck Chops, I'd also suggest the light use of Benzos to help keep youo relaxed, as well as maybe some ginger for the nausea.

Using done to get off Bupe is very interesting, hopefully the slow Done taper will help you out. Those withdrawls suck as well but being on it for a short time will make them a bit more tolerable. I wish you the best, and you have all of us to talk to about it, good luck bro

[The_Highwayman]

Hope this detox can work out for you, I know what you are saying about the tolerance and being sick....in the months I have ben clean I have used like four or five times and they are usually 24-48 hourso fu se at the most and the last time I did it I used H for about 26 hours and I had suboxone and it took me 5 days to finally get right (not dopesick but sleep, sweats, feeling achy and maliase) that was enough to know that it isn;t worth it anymore, even to pkay for a day..plus all the anxiety that led up to when I finally got my hands on the smack, the naxiety was almost as bad as when I was detoxing...and anxiety and cold sweats were my two worst symptoms.

[lib.sOCialist]

So I figured I'd document this. I don't think bup dependency is really fully understood and heavily underestimated by most of the medical community.



So true imo as well. The anxiety from kicking bup is terrible.

[chopstix]

Don't rush it, tempting tho that might be...I wouldn't drop from where you are at, but about 2-3 mg a week..

Noted. It seems like such a small dose and that I should be able to drop quick, but someone else also suggested that I not get so hung up on the 21 day duration and take it a little slower if needed. My problem is MD just scares the shit out of me and for a long time I've been of the mindset that if you *have* to take it, best to keep it under 4-6 weeks as that's apparently the point at which your dependency/body adjusts to the duration of action, halflife and metabolic actions of the done and it becomes your primary dependency.

I'm gonna play it by ear, I feel quite a bit better today and took another cut in dose, but you're probably right that a mg/day might be too quick.. Just hard to believe all this from .5mg bup..

Good luck Chops, I'd also suggest the light use of Benzos to help keep youo relaxed, as well as maybe some ginger for the nausea.

Thanks. I'll try and keep my benzo intake "light", haha - I'm scripted Valium daily and also have ativan and xanax, I truly am trying to keep my intake down though I use 'em if I need 'em..

I used H for about 26 hours and I had suboxone and it took me 5 days to finally get right (not dopesick but sleep, sweats, feeling achy and maliase) that was enough to know that it isn;t worth it anymore, even to pkay for a day.

I hear ya brother, not worth it at all; I slip up and scratch my nose for a few hours, nod a little bit, and then it takes me a fucking week to shake it off... Not fucking worth it at all anymore..


I appreciate the responses, I slept like shit last night but feel pretty good this morning otherwise.. Day 6 and probably @ ~9mg..

[Duckfeet]

My wanted off methadone *really* bad, too, but since I'd failed already a couple of times, at the 21 day 'quickee' detox, I tried to do the slow, maintenance, detox, which is more of a pain--constipation, feeling like shit...but it seems to have worked...

but we're all different...main thing is just to take it slow and easy,,,u know, u feel alright after a few days, go ahead and drop...but main thing is to remember that methadone is still in your system, and can take a little bit longer to get out of your system...but I know exactly what you are talking about...and I have known highly motivated people to "jump" at much higher doses and to hang in there...but me, I wanted to kick as little as possible...

Good luck, day at a time, all that...

[chopstix]

Fucking blah, this stuff makes me feel like shit. I can still barely feel my dose in the am, couple hours after i dose I get a little bit of a glow, but I feel blunted...

Dropping 2-3/week.. Sleep is ok tho still not great..

[jonny-5]

good luck man...if it works out for you im gonna try kicking my hydrocodone habit with diacetylmorphine.

[gnat]

keep goin chop!

[chopstix]

good luck man...if it works out for you im gonna try kicking my hydrocodone habit with diacetylmorphine.

That sounds backwards and that's about how this seems to me, like the bup should be cake..

[Narkotikon]

Bupe w/d DOES suck. For me it's the anxiety, craving, nausea, and some leg aches. It's not quite as physical as w/d from say morphine, but the psychological crap more than compensates. It's not fun. It starts to really suck around day five of no Subs. I'm dreading later this week / next week. I hope you feel better soon.

[runormal]

its good this board is around. every time i ask my dr about getting off subs she says its a breeze that "you can get right off should you want to." after reading repeated posts like these i am really starting to re-evaluate whether that'll be true - and if it isn't, where i will find myself then. i am really hoping your taper plan works with the 'done - it'll be good knowing if there are better/other ways to get off bupe.

[Duckfeet]

Fucking blah, this stuff makes me feel like shit. I can still barely feel my dose in the am, couple hours after i dose I get a little bit of a glow, but I feel blunted...Dropping 2-3/week.. Sleep is ok tho still not great..

Yep: easy does it...hardest time for me, was when the glow started fading, and I had to replace it w/feeling "normal"...and I wasn't at *all* used to "normal"...u know, I noticed aches more, was more irritable...

But it did get better, somewhere in lower doses--around 10mg daily--I started feeling like normal was "o.k."...but, like I said, I had to find *something* to get involved in, u know, not to sit around just "kicking" and so I found more outside things: swimming, yoga, AA meetings... I've known people to do many other things, just to get out of the "I'm a junky and life sucks" mode, which is a bit hard to shake...

Ah well, u know I'm really rooting for you chops...u've been here thru much of my struggle, and I never gave up on it, and finally it seems to have worked...main thing is not to rush it: I really wanted to jump at 10mg, but I'm really glad that not only did I not jump, but at 9mg, I slowed down to 2mg drop a week, and that helped, and I guess I finally jumped the day I dropped from 3mg to 1mg, as mdone machine wasn't spitting shit out by then...

Hang in there, bro...


Bupe w/d DOES suck. For me it's the anxiety, craving, nausea, and some leg aches. It's not quite as physical as w/d from say morphine, but the psychological crap more than compensates. It's not fun. It starts to really suck around day five of no Subs. I'm dreading later this week / next week. I hope you feel better soon.


True true: I really wasn't prepared for bupe w/drawals, and I stuck to the detox just like meditox told me...but when I jumped from 1mg daily to zero, I went thru just what u described...and I never even made it to day 5: Day 3 I got all that stuff, and depression, and went back out...Five thousand bucks poorer for the experience...

If I had it to do over, I would have started cutting the 2mg subs into quarters, and came down to 1/4 a day...then I would have gone to 1/4 every other day...then I would have jumped...1mg, for me, was too high...but I'll never know, as I came to mistrust subs, and sub docs, after that...Others have good experiences on maintenance w/subs, but I haven't heard people talk much about easy detoxes...or at least, not easy after the "jump." but of course: not many people talk about easy detoxes from *any* opiate, IMO, of course...

[chopstix]

3:40am, slept a few hours... eyes are runny and i feel like shit, 5 glasses of wine, few hits off the hash pipe and an ativan help a little tho..

I know the dose is upstairs, not sure I'm gonna make it 24hrs today..

This could be a hell of a lot worse..

[Raz]

Good luck man....Takin it slow is about the best you can do....As long as your reducing, your doin good....Best wishes...

[chopstix]

Thx..

Couple weeks now?? Not sure and too lazy to care.. I'm on a 20hr schedule atm, trying to get back to morning dosing, I take benzos and tend to drink in the evening, let alone the kinda ridiculous amounts of THC these days, it all helps tho..

I can barely feel my dose, supposed to be off by the 25th, at 2mg/wk that's like 4/5mg right now, kinda explains how I feel. Best described as the tin-man with opiates being a little bit of oil for the hinges and a quiet brain.. It'll get better, I need exercise.. Eating good though (thanks to the herb.)

So far, I'm optimistic about this. I've cheated a couple times, and not always been honest about it to those who know me, which is a problem I have, the honesty.. Anyway, very erratic sleep moderated by valium, lorazepam, sticky buds, cheap wine and extracurricular motivations..

I think this is gonna work, helps to be motivated..

[Duckfeet]

Yeah, hang in there chopstix: this is a tuff time of year to be kicking anything, which is why I pushed it to get off by November, but also, I *never* knew or even *thought* I was going to make to all the way to zero...every time I'd drop, I'd say, well if it gets *really* bad, I'll just stop here for a bit...but then, come next week, I'd drop again, and one day it was done...but anyway, best wishes, and don't get discouraged no matter what happens...life ain't a race...


Thx..

Couple weeks now?? Not sure and too lazy to care.. I'm on a 20hr schedule atm, trying to get back to morning dosing, I take benzos and tend to drink in the evening, let alone the kinda ridiculous amounts of THC these days, it all helps tho..

I can barely feel my dose, supposed to be off by the 25th, at 2mg/wk that's like 4/5mg right now, kinda explains how I feel. Best described as the tin-man with opiates being a little bit of oil for the hinges and a quiet brain.. It'll get better, I need exercise.. Eating good though (thanks to the herb.)

So far, I'm optimistic about this. I've cheated a couple times, and not always been honest about it to those who know me, which is a problem I have, the honesty.. Anyway, very erratic sleep moderated by valium, lorazepam, sticky buds, cheap wine and extracurricular motivations..

I think this is gonna work, helps to be motivated..

[chopstix]

Supposedly 9 days to go, seems hard to believe, because I know my dose is like nothing; I can't taste or see it anymore in a few ounces of water..

The person who's dispensing told me yesterday that it's interesting watching the cuts, she says it takes about 2-3 days; I apparently usually seem a little better the day before a cut, so 2-3mg/week seems about right to me also..

Felt quite a bit better yesterday, it's cold and nasty here and yesterday was the first day that the cold didn't bother me as much, like I can feel it but it's not crippling. That's a good sign, a little more energy overall too, and the constipation (from like 5 fucking milligrams!!) is finally going away, yall aren't kidding, it's been a long time since I've taken done daily and I was starting to get worried that I was gonna have to hit the drug store and buy that stuff we all hate laying on the little rubber beltway, instead, it's almost time for the Immodium..

Not there yet, but again, this seems to be working.. When it's all over, I'll post the taper schedule if anyone wants an idea of where to start, going from bup to done.

Muchos Gracias Senor Duckfeet: If I didn't know about your recent md detox, I probably wouldn't have conceived this, and your posts in this thread are really appreciated. Thank ya brother..

[chopstix]

Ugh. 3am and not sure Ima sleep tonight, not without a sledgehammer anyway.. maybe for a few hours with a bunch more vodka, only reasonable choice really as I can't just take all the pills at once..

Two days ago I asked what my dose was, 4mg and I took a cut that night, so tonight/morning is the 2nd on 3mg. The last two days were actually really good, best days I've had since I started this, but the nauseau is kicking in and I almost lost my burger last night while trying to hold down my dose; had to take some kratom this afternoon to hold anything down and today was rough.

It all really could be A LOT worse, I have been way, way, way sicker than this under much worse conditions and without the benzos et al.; but the fucking anxiety and restlessness suckass no matter..

I'm not really counting but I think it's like 25 days now or something, I thought the 25th was 21 days but I think I started this earlier than the 4th..

3mg ain't shit - it's been 8 hours since I dosed and I think today is Immodium Day (isn't it like almost some pop star's bday too, or some crazy shit?? Michael Jackson??)

Anyway, happy Immodium Day.

I been smoking and munching ativan and valium and drinking black russshnesses all night, but 3mg md isn't shit and I think I'm SOL: sweats, cramps, blood pressure.. same old shit and 15 hours to go..

I have some kratom, but I don't really wanna add that into the mix unless I have to again, I think it sets me back...

fuck

[Raz]

Hang in there brother.....Its a hard time a yr to reduce ya intake on anything....

[chopstix]

3rd day at 3mg, I'm dosing in the evening and today is the first day I've been able to eat w/out some kratom in the am - which gets me completely well but I try and avoid it cos I don't wanna need shit to get well anymore..

The cuts have been hard under 5mg, last week I thought I was about done with this, but I also thought I was at a much lower dose than I was. 5-4 wasn't that bad, but 4-3 has been the hardest one yet. I don't know if it's related, but my lower back is fucking trying to KILL ME, never experienced this before in wd and it's not like my (not terribly) usual back pain, feels like someone hit me with a hammer or something, it's almost like bone-bruise pain..

So I dunno how the next few days are gonna be, this has all really been a series of two steps forward, then one step back and down for a day or two but this last cut was a serious bitch..

Maybe new years day..

[Duckfeet]

Hang in there, Chopstix: it does get better...I wouldn't still be hanging in there if it didn't...some mental shit, once in a while...not so much dope craving, as a sort of despair w/life, all that shit, which made me do dope in the 1st place...but this time of year is just a plain old pain in the ass to me...

Anyway, go as slow as you can at the lower doses...not to go back up...but be sure to wait until u r used to dose to drop again...u'll feel better soon...best wishes...

[InfectedMushroom]

Yup take your time man, you're doing alright. The last few mgs are the hardest, just let your body adjust and you will get it.

[Bluemagician]

Keep up the great work Chopstix, seems like you're making great progress and getting near the end! Like everyone else said, take as much time as you need, better to be on meth longer then you expected, then possibly jumping too early and regretting it in the end.. I've quite numerous times, and indeed, every kick keeps getting worse. When I decide to kick bupe, I have a long slow taper program allready planed, so I should be at around .5mg every other day before I decide to jump. I've quite bupe successfully 3 times, but I wasn't on it for very long at that time when I jumped, plus I ended up relapsing after 2-3 months.

[Raz]

3rd day at 3mg, I'm dosing in the evening and today is the first day I've been able to eat w/out some kratom in the am - which gets me completely well but I try and avoid it cos I don't wanna need shit to get well anymore..

The cuts have been hard under 5mg, last week I thought I was about done with this, but I also thought I was at a much lower dose than I was. 5-4 wasn't that bad, but 4-3 has been the hardest one yet. I don't know if it's related, but my lower back is fucking trying to KILL ME, never experienced this before in wd and it's not like my (not terribly) usual back pain, feels like someone hit me with a hammer or something, it's almost like bone-bruise pain..

So I dunno how the next few days are gonna be, this has all really been a series of two steps forward, then one step back and down for a day or two but this last cut was a serious bitch..

Maybe new years day..

Bro if ya aint jackin smack in ya veins your doin good.....Dont kill yaself clucking.....
An new yrs day is a cool time to quit...Like an omen. good start to the yr....

[RFE]

I feel leg pain and restlessness just reading these posts. Yes kicking bupe is ALMOST the same as kicking any other opiates; this is a fact that many people try to look the other way on. Only you can make it better. Tapering does work, but sticking with it is nearly impossible without 3rd party intervention.

[MissyAggravation]

Hey Chopstix, wondering how things are going for you as it's been a while since you've updated.
Hope things are as okay as they can be for ya.

[chopstix]

I feel leg pain and restlessness just reading these posts. Yes kicking bupe is ALMOST the same as kicking any other opiates; this is a fact that many people try to look the other way on. Only you can make it better. Tapering does work, but sticking with it is nearly impossible without 3rd party intervention.

I couldn't do this myself, no fucking way. Some days I can't be trusted with a car and a $20 bill, despite how determined I am to end this run.

Hey Chopstix, wondering how things are going for you as it's been a while since you've updated.
Hope things are as okay as they can be for ya.

Hey Missy, I'm glad you posted because I've recently been meaning to update this, but haven't been quite sure of what to write.

My dispenser and I are on slightly different pages as far as the (planned) timeline on this, which may be towards my benefit, she cuts when she's seeing improvement, but she's not cutting as fast as I'd hoped.

I expected this to be over weeks ago, and I'm still drinking a dose everyday. It *has* to be minuscule, as it never does much, and I usually feel about like I had before I dosed within a few hours, physical aspects reflect that the md isn't doing much to my body even within a few hours of the dose; but I continue to drink it everyday probably mostly for mental reasons, although as soon as I start thinking that I wake up sneezing and puking, which probably means another cut is kicking in - I found out a couple weeks ago that when I thought I was at 3mg, it was more like twice that. She won't give me specific numbers so I really don't know..

It's the bup. I'm trying to sidestep the consequences of a year+ plus dope, and the md has helped, but it's not been a "jump off for free" ticket at all. I've been dragging my ass for about 6 weeks now, even when I switched over to the MD. I have had a few good days but it doesn't help that I'm in a cold, dark, wet forest and not getting much exercise atm - I think exercise at this point would probably benefit more than anything..

I took a step back last night, and it's been the 2nd or 3rd since I started tho the first two(?) very early into this; last night I was in a house waiting for a phone call (kp) for a couple hours with dope and c being passed back and forth under my nose, people fixing everywhere.. And I was fine, slightly interested in the c but not the black *at all*, then some cheap MS IRs and 30mg Roxis appeared. Never having had a decent experience w/ iv oxy, and knowing that the blues are golden, I caved. It was only 30mg and I felt it this am (sicker) but it's not too bad. Aside from that, occasional kratom use and contrary to what I wrote earlier, I'm not sure it sets me back if I take it easy.. I'm thinking some light (<5g/dose) kratom use could get me through the end of this, if needed..

So not quite there yet, but I do think this run is about over. I'm really sick of being sick and completely controlled by this shit..

[Duckfeet]

Thanks for updating, Chopstix...I was wondering too...it's not a race or a competition...u know how it is...some days we eat the bear, and some days the bear eats us...I know we just soldier on, doing best we can...I think once the opiate habit is seriously ingrainedin us, we can get reprieves, but never totally get rid of it...there's just areas of my brain always lying in wait, wanting dope...doesn't matter what I do...but we gotta fight, I guess...anytime I've given in totally to dope habit I ended up hating it, especially the legal maintenance drugs...but when I'm off it a while, I miss the euphoria, even tho I've paid and paid for that euphoria...plus all the criminal shit just adds to the burden...if it were legal--like alcohol--I think I could get a better handle on it...but availability--or lack of--affects everything...

O well, was just checking on you, wishing you well...

[Kristy85]

It really is the lesser of two evils. Though for me personally I'd rather do a sub taper than a 'done taper. I've been on subs many a time and have always come off them with little trouble, but now I'm on the 'done and it's a different story all together i.e. this shit is HARD to get off!!! I find when I'm tapering from 'done the w/d's I feel are a lot worse than the w/d's I felt when I was tapering off the subs (though this is just me and I don't speak for everyone)!

I hate em both but if I had to choose I'd rather be on the subs than the 'done for the simple reason - they're easier to come off.

Good Luck, and just remember, we can make anything work if we just put our minds to it ;)

[MissyAggravation]

I'm really glad to hear that your're hanging in there. Your situation has been of interest to me as I've also recently come off of bupe.
I think that your decision to do your methadone detox "blind" was a good idea and I think that tapering down as slowly as you are, aside from the fact that you just want to be done with it, is probably a good thing and was probably the best way to do it in your situation. I mean bupe WDs do last forever anyway, and I think that your method probaly saved ya a lot of grief even though it's still been no picnic.
You've obviously got a good handle on the H habit since you were able to pass on it. That had to feel good to some degree and you shouldn't feel bad about the roxi or the other couple slip ups, I feel that sometimes a break is neccessary(and can sometimes show you just why you wanted to stop to begin with) and as long as you're at a point where you can truly trust yourself you should be okay.
I think that you've been doing great Chopstix.
I sincerely hope for sunny days for you and hope that you'll keep this thread updated as I am rooting for you.

[Raz]

Yeah man " WATS APPENIN CHOPS " ??.........

did dat roxi set ya back?.......

I caved yesterday an hadda chase, 1st one in a week,"But" i actually felt it, for once!!.....Fuckin hell i must be doin sumfin right wiv da methadone taper....And da buzz reminded me why i do drugs, i enjoyed it....

But like you bro, i dont like da idea of being controlled by anything.....So wats appening bro, how ya doin???

[chopstix]

I hate em both but if I had to choose I'd rather be on the subs than the 'done for the simple reason - they're easier to come off.


Kristy I'm curious, what's the longest stretch you've taken subs, and since that period, what's the longest clean stretch you've had? I ask because I think subs get "dangerous" after a significant length of use, while methadone is generally, imo, about 45 days until md is your primary dependency - for lack of a better phrase.

I think straight CT MD vs. Bup: MD symptoms are probably more acute, but after the initial sickness/week or two, I'm starting to think they might be about the same.

I'm really glad to hear that your're hanging in there. Your situation has been of interest to me as I've also recently come off of bupe.
I think that your decision to do your methadone detox "blind" was a good idea and I think that tapering down as slowly as you are, aside from the fact that you just want to be done with it, is probably a good thing and was probably the best way to do it in your situation. I mean bupe WDs do last forever anyway, and I think that your method probaly saved ya a lot of grief even though it's still been no picnic.
You've obviously got a good handle on the H habit since you were able to pass on it. That had to feel good to some degree and you shouldn't feel bad about the roxi or the other couple slip ups, I feel that sometimes a break is neccessary(and can sometimes show you just why you wanted to stop to begin with) and as long as you're at a point where you can truly trust yourself you should be okay.
I think that you've been doing great Chopstix.
I sincerely hope for sunny days for you and hope that you'll keep this thread updated as I am rooting for you.

That means a lot. Thanks. I kick the shit out of myself for losing control and getting loaded.

"Breaks" are kind of an interesting subject, Duck has written about this too, many times, probably like most of us, in wd I'll get loaded a few days in or something, and it really can serve as a reminder.. I don't ever go into a slip with this mindset but frequently come out with it - get loaded, scratch, nod, sleep.. then wake up and feel like shit for the next four days.. Not worth it..

It's not worth it to me, it's gotta be all or nothing and I want nothing. Unlike some folks I just don't function well for very long on opiates.. Just long enough to get really strung out..

Yeah man " WATS APPENIN CHOPS " ??.........

did dat roxi set ya back?.......

I caved yesterday an hadda chase, 1st one in a week,"But" i actually felt it, for once!!.....Fuckin hell i must be doin sumfin right wiv da methadone taper....And da buzz reminded me why i do drugs, i enjoyed it....

But like you bro, i dont like da idea of being controlled by anything.....So wats appening bro, how ya doin???

Sup, heheh..

Sounds like you're making progress with the md bro, just like they're telling me.. Progress is progress..

The roxi did set me back, the usual 4-5 days. And I have a new symptom now - that I've *only ever* experienced with methadone (exp'd sumthin similar on SSRIs a couple times, known side effect, last time was the last SSRI for me) - major jaw tension and lockjaw-like jaw spasms. Fortunately both kratom and soma stop the spasms, because it's the worst fucking symptom EVER.

Last time I experienced this was after a 6mos clinical MD stretch and they gave me a rapid DT cos my voucher ran out. So I did a couple grams of dope a day for a few weeks and then tried to kick. Made it 5 days and as I was copping my fix, by the time I found someone with a bag, I literally could not separate my jaw. Full on lockjaw - 5 days out. I was also shaking so bad I have no idea how I managed to get that hit in a vein.

Only a junky really knows what it's like to go from SOFUCKINGSICK. to "just peachy, wanna get a latte?" in 10 seconds flat - as I'm exiting the Starbucks bathroom..

Yesterday and today have been good days. And The Dispenser claims that it's getting hard to measure the dose, and we had a little dialog about how well the md is/isn't dispersed in the buffer. These are 10mg pills so my dosing can't be that accurate.. I'm always hoping that this is it, and the worst it over but I don't know yet. I suspect the bup will linger for awhile.

For anyone seriously taking notes, I do have a lot of comfort meds (like, name it), but the truth is none of them really fair to even a couple teaspoons of kratom at this point - they do help, weed passes time and benzos and Vodka bring sleep, but sick is sick..

Definite progress. Thanks for the replies..

[Mayo]

Yeah, great job chop!

Yesterday and today have been good days. And The Dispenser claims that it's getting hard to measure the dose, and we had a little dialog about how well the md is/isn't dispersed in the buffer. These are 10mg pills so my dosing can't be that accurate..


I didn't see how exactly you are making the solution, but if you are comfortable with it I'll shut up about that.

You must be on a tiny dose by now, around 3mg (1.5mg being active isomer)?
Are you taking the dose same time every day, same spacing away from mealtime & not with food?
Using anything to raise stomach pH before dosing?

At this point consistency in absorption must play a big role in not having shitty days,
along with getting the most out of every dose.
Hopefully finding something fun to do as often as possible (which you know already of course).
Gotta be tough, like Raz said, for me this time of year doesn't make it any easier (makes it damn near impossible for me really).
Stay strong, let me know if you want input on something. I'm sure you got it well sorted tho.

[chopstix]

Yeah, great job chop!


I didn't see how exactly you are making the solution, but if you are comfortable with it I'll shut up about that.

You must be on a tiny dose by now, around 3mg (1.5mg being active isomer)?
Are you taking the dose same time every day, same spacing away from mealtime & not with food?
Using anything to raise stomach pH before dosing?

At this point consistency in absorption must play a big role in not having shitty days,
along with getting the most out of every dose.
Hopefully finding something fun to do as often as possible (which you know already of course).
Gotta be tough, like Raz said, for me this time of year doesn't make it any easier (makes it damn near impossible for me really).
Stay strong, let me know if you want input on something. I'm sure you got it well sorted tho.

Re: time of year: No, it doesn't help - it could be way worse but 40f is 40f and the weather def makes a difference, especially in the rain - I'm motivated to go outside but the temp gets me, this is temporary. I can barely handle it sober w/out good reason.. Tho I revel in it under the right conditions..

Solution: TMK, she's just quartering or eighthing 10mg pills and dissolving in vitamin water (yum). Not with a liquid titration, TMK. I'm not sure she gets that or could be bothered..

I figure 2mg, but I've been wrong before. I dunno.. No manipulated stomach PH, tho I live on tums due to constant reflux...

[Mayo]

..
Solution: TMK, she's just quartering or eighthing 10mg pills and dissolving in vitamin water (yum). Not with a liquid titration, TMK. I'm not sure she gets that or could be bothered....

Yeah, not at all adequate for consistent dosing. No doubt you realize that.

I would love 40 and rain right now! Dumbest thing I ever did was move to Minnesota last summer.
Damn malfunctioning brain. Forget mayo, I'm getting the hell out of here ASAP. 30 below with windchill, F this.

Anyway, much luck man, I hope once you jump it just gets better every day.

[rockbottom]

i just wanted to wish u well--u helped me with a benzo wd last year---sounds like u have everything under control---also quit done about 5 years ago with a slow taper 120-0 in about a year-so i know u can do it ---good luck --Rock

[Mayo]

Hey chop, was just remembering fondly my time in Seattle. But realized you were right
about 40 and raining - that really can be a bummer, as much as below zero can.
That winter in Seattle I just couldn't get warm without a soak in a warm bath, and
the no-sun-for-weeks thing eventually got to me. Still love Seattle tho.

Hope all is well with the 'done. I have all kinds of useless tidbits about maximizing absorption.
Well not useless, but I imagine you're beyond the need and just wanting it to be over by now.
Let us know how its going when you feel like it, we're always interested hearing about it.

EDIT: shit, forgot to ask, how long has it been off the subs now? about 48 days?
mmm. so long sub.

[chopstix]

Ya Mayo - cold is cold. I've lived in my truck intentionally at averages under 10f, I remember one night at 2f and the edges of the comforter felt like a wood stove, they felt hot - I didn't have a bag, just a down comforter, blankets and an elevated futon in the back of a toyota. I lived like this for awhile and loved it, I was chasing a passion, saw some great places and don't regret the trip at all..

I need to update this; progress is had but it hasn't been easy. I'm convinced the medical community knows fuck all about bup.

Short: overall I feel a lot better. The overwhelming malaise is gone, but the insomnia is back which is what started this run in the first place and my other dependencies and junky thought patterns/rationale are manifesting, which affect me much more than they did when I was loaded all the time.

I've referenced this thread recently so thought I'd add: a real update coming soon, maybe later today. Now isn't the best time, later and thx for the responses and continued support.

[Poppylvr]

I've referenced this thread recently so thought I'd add: a real update coming soon, maybe later today. Now isn't the best time, later and thx for the responses and continued support.
Hey Chops - I'm watching quietly from the sidelines. I have now been on bupe for a year with wildly varying doses. I am slowly getting to the point of readiness to come off. I am frightened, though, by reading yours and others experiences w bupe w/ds.
I CT'd off IV morphine countless times, and was usually functioning OK around 7 days (would miss work the first 2-3 days & tough it out the rest of the time). I have noticed the early onset of wd's with the bupe about 3-4 days after a dose drop, and I would always take a 2 mg pill just to make the depression go away.
Enough of my crap. Just want to let you know I'm rooting for you, and am hoping to join your ranks in the spring. Sending feel better vibes your way.....Poppy

[ryan]

For me, the cold always kills me. I can't stand it. People think I'm nuts cause I wear a jacket (inside) at work sometimes. Tapering \ WDing always makes my sensitivity to cold go WAYYYY up. Sucks living in buffalo, ny. IT's winter here 6 months out of the year. God I can't wait until it's warm again.

Anyways -- whenever I did benzos while tapering I always got hooked on them. I found something else to help with the insomnia and it's called trazodone. It puts me right out whenever I take it. It's not a pleasurable feeling at all though, but that's good for me -- since I always get hooked on things that make me feel pleasurable. Anyways, it helps alot with my insomnia and it doesn't mess me up like benzos \ ambien do. Just something to consider. Hope all is well.

[MissyAggravation]

Man, Chopstix you are dead on right about the medical community knowing fuck all about bup. I think there is a serious lack of understanding amongst even the doctors with the best of intentions.
I would really love to know what they teach the docs that have to certify to prescribe it.
I'm glad to see that you're hanging in there and that you're feeling like progress is being made.
I know how you feel as I hated feeling so stagnant and lethargic for weeks and then into months, but once that fog began to lift... now I have little victories here and there.
Hope things keep looking up for you.

[chopstix]

EDIT: shit, forgot to ask, how long has it been off the subs now? about 48 days?


Last bup was right around Dec 1st, so it's been just under 60 days at this point. WAY longer than I expected, but I did slip a few times and I'm lucky that although I do have shit to do, I don't have a lot of responsibility at the moment.. I dunno, maybe it would be better if I did but it's been quite a rollercoaster..

Suddenly felt quite a bit better a few days ago, all of the sudden I can be bothered to do little shit like clean, move around more, start taking care of shit that's been put off for two months, go see clients and work.. That overwhelming depression is lifting and I feel something closer to late stage H wd, like the point where you kinda start feeling normal, music sounds good again, waking up feeling like a man again ;) you know, the little things that we forget about when strung..



Anyways -- whenever I did benzos while tapering I always got hooked on them. I found something else to help with the insomnia and it's called trazodone. It puts me right out whenever I take it.

Thanks ryan, I've tried everything; problem is I came into this with a scripted valium dependency and I've been supplementing that with ativan and quite a bit of alcohol, so too late and it's kinda bad. Benzos are next on my list but I have a real problem and I'm not sure how I'm gonna deal..

I have really, really severe insomnia. I can't fall asleep easily, I can't stay asleep (without drugs) and when I am asleep I don't consistently get into stage 3/4, so it's not always restful sleep. I'm kinda fucked, it was what got me back on the shit in the first place after several years clean..

I know what I need to do, which is get a sleep study done and find a good sleep doc, and probably another addiction specialist, but I don't have insurance. There are options out there but I procrastinate and when the insomnia attacks come, I get really debilitated really quickly.

I think not being strung out will help motivate me to get this rolling, mostly because I tend to kinda forget if I'm sleeping ok, and dope is by far the most effective drug for my insomnia, but it ruins everything else in my life..

Man, Chopstix you are dead on right about the medical community knowing fuck all about bup. I think there is a serious lack of understanding amongst even the doctors with the best of intentions.


Truth huh? They don't know *shit* - we're totally guinea pigs.. Huge peeve of mine, the FDA and pharm industry.. I won't get started on that cause I won't stop for days...

Bah, I will say something cos it pisses me off and here's an example that affects me directly:

Lunesta - EsZopiclone. A recently patented drug that is just a very slight modification to Zopiclone, which has been around for a long time. It's a good sleep med, similar to ambien but lasts longer, and it worked well for me but it's really expensive (it was, been a little while so it may not be patented anymore, no matter to me now though, I need a grip of benzos and several drinks to sleep).

It shouldn't be expensive, it's twin has long been available in Europe and Canada for cheap. But some greedy fucking US pharm company modified the original drug just barely enough to get a patent on the "new" one, and the FDA immediately rescheduled plain ol Zopiclone to keep people from (legally) bringing it into the US. I think that's fucked. Last I checked it was like well over $100/mo for a script. Fuck that, I think that's cruel, especially with sleep drugs. Fuckers.

A lot of people that don't have it seem to have a hard time understanding just how debilitating insomnia can be - it completely ruins me until I can get rest. I freelance IT and I need my brain and my memory, neither of which exist w/out sleep, and it usually takes a chemical sledgehammer to get there which is catching up with me.

So now that the dope thing is about over, I'm facing this again. Over the last few weeks I've slipped into a mostly nocturnal existence, my clock is all fucked up. Yesterday I slept from 6am to 5pm which was good cos I really needed it, but I'm having a hard time turning it around. I even went as far as to try using amphetamine to turn myself around, haha.. Umm.. Mis-calculated first dose and it was 48hrs before I slept a wink. Taking one more shot at it, only because I bought more than I wanted, but I dunno if it'll work.. I don't much like stims and won't keep trying.

It sucks finally having some energy if I'm sleeping but only having it in the middle of the night, when there's not a lot I can do to be productive...

Two steps fwd and one step back. Determined to get off the shit but not sure what lies ahead.. I'd really like to try Xyrem (scripted GHB) for sleep but it's stupid expensive, hard to find a doc that can write cos they need a cert, and I suspect that my benzo intake will have to be, at the very least, cut dramatically in addition to the alcohol tho that would be a lot easier.. I do want off benzos but it has to happen slow, I believe Dr. Heather Ashton (benzo.org.uk) who thinks rapid benzo detox, or sudden cessation causes damage to the GABA receptors, and I don't need anything else fucking with my ability to sleep.

Anyway, there's my piss and moan..

Still dosing micro amts of MD, but I think I'm below the threshold, I expect to be off really soon.. Still some jaw tension but aside from the whacky sleep cycles, that's about it. Still taking bits of kratom here and there.. Not sure if I'll continue that, it's not much but I do wanna be off all opiates..

Anyway, thanks again all, and congratulations if you made it through my fucking rant.

[ryan]

Scripted GHB? That sounds awesome. I've always wanted to try GHB\14,b\etc. but could never get my hands on it. I wonder if it actually works better than ambien \ lunesta.

Crazy that it used to be legal and sold as a workout drug eh? Our contry is fucked up.

Thanks for your post chopstix -- it brings me back to the question I always asked -- is benzo addiction worse than opiate addiction? I think it is. Withdrawal from benzos has a higher risk of fatality that's for sure, and I'm willing to bet that the time it takes for one to become addicted to benzos vs. opiates is much shorter.

The withdrawal from benzos is so bad (for me at least).
Back in 2004, when I was trying to kick my H habit, I ordered 60 xanax bars from an online pharmacy with my credit card. I made sure to get them next day'd (heh) and started popping them like candy while slowly stopping the heroin. Within 10 days they were all gone.

I actually had halucinations and shit -- combined with intense migraines, shakes, feeling like I was "outside" my own skin, and no sleep in 15 minute increments for about a week straight. It was pure hell. It wa probably a little of both (opiate and benzo withdrawal) that made it so bad, but even recently when my tolerance to H was so bad that bupe wouldn't even work anymore -- it wasn't as bad as it was then.

[chopstix]

Well it's only been a few days but I think I managed to get my schedule turned around with the speed. Kind of a brutal way to do it, but I'd been turned around for weeks and having an impossible time getting back on a normal schedule..

Seems like every time I write something like "I think it's over" or whatever, something else comes up. This time it's RLS - yesterday I was kicking the covers for awhile and that's a first, been wondering if that was coming. Also experiencing a lot of anxiety in the evenings which could probably be attributed to a couple things aside from the dope..

Still can't say I don't feel better though, energy level isn't sky high but seems to be improving as long as I'm sleeping..

And ya, there's pharmaceutical GHB out there, it's very tightly controlled though which is interesting for such a simple compound.. I've never had G, I know someone that has it but isn't thrilled about sharing due to my benzo and alcohol intake, which is fair. I've had 1,4B - stuff worked really good. It was before my insomnia really got bad but just a few drops of that stuff was like a really happy drunk that would knock me the fuck out in short order, really a quite euphoric come on though..

[Mayo]

But some greedy fucking US pharm company modified the original drug just barely enough to get a patent on the "new" one, and the FDA immediately rescheduled plain ol Zopiclone to keep people from (legally) bringing it into the US. I think that's fucked.

They didn't modify the molecule at all, simply purified the racemic mixture (R-zopiclone and S-zopiclone) to get rid of the inactive isomer.
"Es"-zopiclone, give me a fucking break. What a ripoff.

So it took almost 60 days post-bupe for some energy to return. Thats almost as long as it takes after a long H run.
It takes soooo long it seems, then you just suddenly start feeling more energetic.
I wonder how that would have progressed without the 'done.

Anything else going on besides the RLS stuff (feel cold, sneezing, sweating, craving, etc)?
I see you have things that come and go, but so far there is always something, huh?

Are you going to know when you're done with the 'done, or are you doing a 'blind finish' too?
Maybe you're already off it?....j/k

[chopstix]

They didn't modify the molecule at all, simply purified the racemic mixture (R-zopiclone and S-zopiclone) to get rid of the inactive isomer.
"Es"-zopiclone, give me a fucking break. What a ripoff.

So it took almost 60 days post-bupe for some energy to return. Thats almost as long as it takes after a long H run.
It takes soooo long it seems, then you just suddenly start feeling more energetic.
I wonder how that would have progressed without the 'done.

Anything else going on besides the RLS stuff (feel cold, sneezing, sweating, craving, etc)?
I see you have things that come and go, but so far there is always something, huh?

Are you going to know when you're done with the 'done, or are you doing a 'blind finish' too?
Maybe you're already off it?....j/k

Yeah, I knew it was something ridiculous like that - so why did they get the patent if it was such a trivial change with an identical mechanism of action? Fucking FDA pisses me off..

I can't tell if this was drawn out by the MD or not, still having some jaw tension as well as the anxiety, runny eyes, random yawns and limited but better energy. Was sneezing and puking in the mornings for awhile, but thats gone at the moment.

With H I'm fine at 60 days, worst is over at two weeks and by 3-4 I'm back to normal. Be interesting to see how long the symptoms I have continue..

Edit: wrote too soon (see??) just fired off 6 sneezes in 3 seconds. Haven't sneezed in several days.. Got those "jumpy" yawns too.. Ugh.

[chopstix]

Skipped my dose yesterday. Gonna skip today too; if I feel ok tomorrow, I guess I'm good...

Sneezy this am but that's trivial, I've been taking usually one small dose of Kratom in the am. I'm not gonna talk about sleep to keep from jinxing myself, but things are looking up and I'm shopping for a sleep specialist atm so maybe there's some hope..

[roxi*stardust]

Skipped my dose yesterday. Gonna skip today too; if I feel ok tomorrow, I guess I'm good...

Sneezy this am but that's trivial, I've been taking usually one small dose of Kratom in the am. I'm not gonna talk about sleep to keep from jinxing myself, but things are looking up and I'm shopping for a sleep specialist atm so maybe there's some hope..

That is great chopstix!! Have you tried melatonin for sleep. My dad (may he RIP) used to have terrible sleep problems after he had his first stroke; it affected the part of the brain that does the sleep function. He tried everything, benzos, hypnotics, Z-meds, etc. He began taking the melatonin and it helped to an extent. I mean it wasn't a miracle drug but it seemed to help somewhat. Worth a try if you haven't tried it, it's fairly cheap at health food stores.

[chopstix]

I might give melatonin another try. As I cut back on alcohol as well, my benzo intake is increasing. Some days are easier than others but I have this real tendency to just suddenly feel awake 10-11pm, and it's hard to be tired..

So today is I think day four w/out any done. My dose is sitting up there but I haven't touched it. Little bits of kratom and a ton of weed.. Had a couple bouts of relatively minor RLS recently, jaw tension is much better but not gone, yawns, runny eyes, sneezing, some sleep but erratic and again I don't sleep normally anyway..

I can get a rough schedule of cuts and notes through this, I'll post it in a bit. I'm gonna say this was probably a lot easier overall than just jumping at 1mg/day although a bit drawn out.. Still regaining energy but I feel pretty good if I'm sleeping.. I've started hiking again which is a huge indicator for me..

[chopstix]

Ok, taper schedule. Obviously this is highly subjective and would probably play out differently if I did it again, so take it with a grain of salt, just kinda interesting to me to see where I was at with the doses and how long it drug out, likely due to the bup. FWIW, there were 2-3 small relapses in this period, first very early in and last about 2-3 weeks ago and I never admitted any slips to her.

I know the formatting sucks, I tried but I'm not gonna spend all morning on this.

Schedule as initially planned, vs what I actually took and some notes. It's on paper and hard to read so this is kinda thin - jumping to MD from .5-1mg bup insufflated/day:

Day - Planned Dose - Actual Dose - Notes (if any)

1 15mg 15mg
2 15mg (15 with an ?) ?
3 12.5 13
4 12.5 12 sick - (likely from cheating)
5 11 11.25(?) sick (not sure how she thinks she's measuring .25mg,
maybe it's deduction)
6 11 11.25 sickish
7 9 10.65(??) ok - better
8 9 9 "rough"
9 8 9 ok
10 7 9 "quite sick"
11 5 8 better but not sleeping
12 5 8 sick, no sleep
13 4 7 Notes unclear
14 4 7 ""
15 3 6 better through the day
16 3 6 blech
17 (eff the plan)6 better
18 5 ok
19 5 dosed early, 4am
20 4 ditto
21 4
22 4 rough day
23 4 ok @ 24hrs
24 3 better
25 3
26 3 Nausea in am, no real sleep
27 3 better
28 3 rough - notes unclear
29 3 not bad
30 3
31 3
32 3 better
33 3 not great
34 3 ok
35 2.5 ok, not sleeping well
36 2.5 anxiety, insomnia
37 2 better
38 2 cranky but w/ energy
39 2 ok
40 2 bad night
41 2
42 1+
43 1+ (hard to measure)
44 1 good day but jaw tension kicks in
45 1
46 1 bad day, jaw, anxiety., insomnia
47 1 better, slept, went out, cranky, tense
48 1 ok, using kratom
49 1 horrible day, floored by insomnia
50 1 feeling late stage, rough sleep but malaise fading (my recollection)
51 1 bad sleep
52 1 bad sleep
53 1 sleep affecting appetite (this happens, cortisol release from sleep dep.)
54 1 Chicken soup for days ^^
55 1 "
56 1 better but tired
57 1
58 skipped dose
59 fuck it, "jumped"

A couple things to note, for quite awhile at the end, I really didn't feel like I needed the dose, but I didn't feel great either so I just kept drinking it knowing it wasn't gonna do much (physical aspects reflected little if any effect 5hrs post dose for weeks). Also as mentioned, these were 10mg pills and it's impossible to guarantee even distribution of the MD through the buffer.

I did some speed at a couple points in this that she isn't aware of (see "cranky" =), mostly out of boredom and the illusion of maybe getting something done and also attempts to become diurnal again.

I didn't exercise nearly as much as I should have - (aside from my fucking fingers from typing).

For several days, I was at a 20hr dosing schedule, trying to get from 4am to evening in hopes of helping sleep. Eventually settled on dosing at ~4pm though I was completely nocturnal for a few weeks.

My insomnia probably plays largely into her observations.

I think I could have dropped faster, no regrets, I feel good aside from pre-existing sleep issues, but our communication through this could have been better and that's entirely on me..

I'll add more if I think of it. Starting to exercise again, and I think I'm gonna go for a hike this am..

And not at all in the least, thanks to Duckfeet for posting his experience and planting the seed of this idea which seems to have worked, I would have never considered it otherwise - I am still taking <5g kratom 1-2x/day but it doesn't do much..

[chopstix]

So it's been three months now without any bup. I'm still dependent but it's light, I can get down as low as a spoonful of kratom once a day, and as low as that sounds, trust me, I know when it's time - same old shit, sneezy, runny eyes, bowels on overdrive, anxiety that isn't really touched by comfort meds, my body knows exactly what it wants..

I wonder if this is still bup wd, or if it's because I continue to trickle small but effective doses of opioids into my body. I have to wonder where I would be at if I had just gone CT from the bup dec 1st.. Probably better off but I'm guessing there would still be symptoms, I firmly believe that bup is akin to methadone when it comes to difficulty of wd, I think MD is more acute initially, but in the long run I'm thinking they're about the same..

So I just ran a little experiment and took some bup. It's been 90 days and I'm not gonna take anymore, this was a one hit deal and the result is interesting so far - It got me loaded - not just kinda glowy and I'm not *ripped*, but I fully feel like I took a full agonist and my housemate shot me that "you look high" look awhile ago.

Just a little background and to outline my thoughts going into this: It's been a hard couple weeks. I'm also trying to get by on as few benzos and as little wine as possible, and trying really hard to "sleep" on a schedule whether or not I actually sleep. I travelled for a few days last week and fucked my sleep schedule and benzo intake all up, and then I decided to do a shot of dope late last week. Couple days after the dope shot, I came across some fucking fent patches and had me a little fent party.

So it's been about a week trying to be good, tho I've taken a little hydro too, I think four days now on kratom alone till this afternoon, kinda sliding back here, but still very much have my eye on the goal of not needing a single fucking molecule of an opiate to get through the day (or night).

So back to the bup - I figured the recent background and my current status plays into this a bit, I didn't know what was gonna happen.. Really early this morning I took a spoonful of kratom, which was my third in 24hrs - not a ton but 3x what my baseline has been; I really only mention it cos I booted the suboxone and wondered if I would exp any PW from the naloxone..

Nope. I booted about 2mg and halfway through the push, I could feel the warmth. It wasn't a rush per se just more of a fast onset, no PW at all, and within about 5-10 minutes I started scratching my nose and have been for the last couple hours.. Interesting..

I did it for a couple reasons: I was curious about agonistic effects after this long off, and with a really low (but existent) tolerance. I'm also really curious as to how long it keeps me well, I'm not gonna take any kratom until the wd sets in, so I dunno - 12hrs? 24? I'll post back.. I also really want some good rest tonight, last night sucked and there's something I wanna go do tomorrow..

So I dunno, I figured I'd post up - I think bup is a much, much more serious drug than people realize, and the rest of what I have is getting tossed, I don't want it around and I'll never take it everyday again. I'd rather go low with dose MD or short acting drugs at this point. That's a viewpoint brought on by this "detox" - bup is way, way more potent than people realize.. I'm scared shitless of methadone but I'm now also really wary of bup maintenance, I think a lot of people have no idea how strung out they really are on this shit.

Anyway, enough blogging.. I'm gonna enjoy my glow for the night and get some needed rest.. I'll post back on how long this holds me..

[digby]

Sorry you are having the sleep troubles Stix. Man do I know what that feels like. I used to average about 3 hours a night max, and that just even tears your soul up after a while.

Nothing worked for longer than a week for me, and I tried everything. Finally settled on brand Ambien (non CR) together with 1.5 mg melatonin. Less worked better than more for me with melatonin, as if I took more I ended up really groggy with cotton for a brain in the morning on those nights when it worked. The thing that has impressed me about Ambien is that I have been taking it for almost 2 years and it is still working as good as it did on day one. Hope that continues because it is the only thing I have found that works for me.

Best of luck on your bupe transformation. Fortunately have never had to experience that one.