Dextromethorphan, ketamine, and phencyclidine...

[resorcinol]

...what I find interesting about them is that they straddle the line between nonaddictive entheogens and addictive hard drugs.

While people do have entheogenic psychedelic experiences with NMDA antagonists, I've also heard of many cases of addiction to these three drugs.

On another forum I visit, there was a young gay guy who talked about his addiction to K and how it almost ruined his life. He claimed that he got so far into it that he got involved in the drug trade and got too high up... ya know... high up where you life is in danger 24/7... and he said that he was doing an 8 ball of ketamine a day at the height of his addiction. He eventually got busted for dealing and possession, and the DEA offered to let him go scot free if he ratted out people higher up in the chain, and did some undercover work for them. He claimed that he hated the DEA, so all he'd give them was some information, but he told them he would never work for them because he was against it morally. Apparently, the tip off about some people involved in the scene was enough, and he got off with parole and got clean.

It fascinates me, though, that dissociatives are addictive to some people. I used to trip on DXM from time to time and could never see how somebody could get a habit on that type of experience. I just wonder how the brains of people who get addicted to dissociatives are wired. It seems so unusual. And yet, it's clear that dissociatives are the so called "addictive psychedelics". Addiction to them is pretty well documented, with plenty of cases.

I'm wondering if anyone on opiophile has ever been addicted to dissociatives? If so -- what about the experience was so enticing? How could you function at all with the profound intoxication they cause?

[Paregoric Kid]

I've known some hardcore DXM and a few ketamine users, hell PCP too. none of them ever got physically addicted and many are doing fine and have respectable jobs and are still highly intelligent. although if you used ketamine in ridiculous doses the mu agonism might start an opioid like addiction. and then there is pentazocine (definitely an addictive opiate with disassociative effects) and many opioids have isomers that are NMDA antagonists, like methadone, levomethorphan/levorphanol, and ketobemidone to name a few. Shulgin was supposed to be working on a book about tetrahydroisoquinilines that were psychedelic and also had opioid effects.
zipeprol, an opioid which is legal in the US, has disassociative effects in high doses. and noscapine, which is in opium and in other poppies, has disassociative effects as well.
aside from the disassociatives which have opioid effects or are isomers of an mu agonist, stuff like DXM doesn't seem to produce physical addiction. but you will hear people say it is physically addictive, I know Jacky has said some things to that effect. I totally respect that opinion I just haven't personally come across evidence to support that.

[rockbottom]

io use Dxm and PCP when u could get piperidine--DXm is cool but real Pcp is awesome-the shit they make now is definatly not the real ---deal--so please dont mess with it---its poison

[God_Albino]

dxm gave me a hell of a lot more trouble than opiates. when it still worked for me, it felt better than e, dope, pretty much anything. i ended up doing it around the clock for 3-4 years, went to rehab, hospitals, etc and just couldnt stop.

it took me half a year to re-learn how to read books again, and my brain is still fried. i still dont know why cough syrup of all things would be the chink in my armor. good old erowid said it didn't cause brain damage, ha.

even the best opiates just feel like a weak tease compared to it.

[resorcinol]

stuff like DXM doesn't seem to produce physical addiction. but you will hear people say it is physically addictive, I know Jacky has said some things to that effect. I totally respect that opinion I just haven't personally come across evidence to support that.

I think DXM's potential physical dependence stems not from it's primary NMDA antagonism, but from it's other pharmacodynamic properties, in particular, its serotonin reuptake inhibition. This could cause an SSRI like discontinuation syndrome with the "zaps" if it's abused over a long period.

[bigfootlives]

Hey do you guys know if ketamine will kill me like Dxm will because I'm now on Paroxetine ( an SSRI). Disassociatives have always been a close friend of mine, so i'm pissed that its dangerous to do them now.

[Narkotikon]

I've done DXM and Special K. I loved K, whereas DXM was something I did when I was bored and couldn't get "real" drugs. I mean, it's a drug, but I just didn't like that shit all that much. I felt like it was way more psychedelic than K, to me at least, and it just gave me a very introspective, cold feeling. Like, I would lie on my bed in my dorm room, tripping almost, but freezing cold. I just didn't like that stuff. K, on the other hand, was wonderful. I found it very euphoric, and I loved how it relaxed me yet made me not want to move at the same time. It was like every muscle was relaxed, yet I was glued to my seat. I guess it was sort of a minor K-hole type thing. I don't know. Anyway, I loved ketamine, didn't care for DXM so much. I've never done PCP, but I'm afraid I'd hate it because of it's strong psychedelic properties.

An 8 ball of K a day is a lot. That's hard to wrap my mind around. The most I ever did in one day was a half a gram.

[Papa Verine]

In Chicago there's a decades old history of PCP being sold on the streets. For as long as I can remember there have been "spots" to get PCP. Some places sell pre-dipped joints, soaking wet and vaccum-sealed in plastic. Some spots sell it as tea leaves only dampened. Whatever... it's called WIKKI. The powdered form is called "Tick" and I've only ever gotten that from bikers.

I could never understand it but there are a small percentage of people who get completely addicted to Wikki. They smoke it every day, for years... and these people are usually very strange characters. I remember one guy in particular who scared the Hell out of me. He was huge... a big body-builder type guy. He was a die-hard Wikki addict. Where he was from near 18th and California Ave. they've been selling Wikki on the streets for decades. He was trying to quit when I met him, preaching to everybody about God and trying to be a decent guy. Then one day he showed up at work all fucked up. "Stuck" as it's called. He just couldn't get off the shit.

I've done it maybe 30 times in my life. It's not something I can imagine doing every day or ever getting addicted to. But some people do...

[Narkotikon]

In Chicago there's a decades old history of PCP being sold on the streets. For as long as I can remember there have been "spots" to get PCP. Some places sell pre-dipped joints, soaking wet and vaccum-sealed in plastic. Some spots sell it as tea leaves only dampened. Whatever... it's called WIKKI. The powdered form is called "Tick" and I've only ever gotten that from bikers.

I could never understand it but there are a small percentage of people who get completely addicted to Wikki. They smoke it every day, for years... and these people are usually very strange characters. I remember one guy in particular who scared the Hell out of me. He was huge... a big body-builder type guy. He was a die-hard Wikki addict. Where he was from near 18th and California Ave. they've been selling Wikki on the streets for decades. He was trying to quit when I met him, preaching to everybody about God and trying to be a decent guy. Then one day he showed up at work all fucked up. "Stuck" as it's called. He just couldn't get off the shit.

I've done it maybe 30 times in my life. It's not something I can imagine doing every day or ever getting addicted to. But some people do...

Stuck. That's interesting. Do you mean the inability to move or the not having the desire to move? Sort of reminds me of Ketamine. Have you done K? If so, how would you compare it to PCP? This is interesting. I've always heard horror stories about PCP. I guess they could have been false, but I always imagined if I ever did it, I'd be hallucinating and seeing demons and stuff. Maybe that was just a scare tactic or by someone who didn't like it.

[robojunkie]

I like PCP a whole lot. Probably done that hundreds of times, DXM in the hundreds as well. PCP is much much better and much easier on the body as well, though either one when done day after day can cause issues in one's life and the lives of others to say the least. I try to limit myself to "once in awhile" (as I am limited by availability of necessities at the moment anyway) with the leaky leak, people become afraid of me and shit, though I don't really get it cause I've never been violent on dust, but I can see how the type who is prone to violence can go apeshit. Neither are physically addicting, trust me.

Can't speak for ketamine, but I would love to soon though!

[Seedy]

^^ too right you'd love to, K is some amazing shit. You have to watch out for the hellishly steep dose/response curve, like GBL/GHB, the threshold between consciousness & comatose is pretty low but with K instead of risking a deep peaceful sleep you risk entering an out of body experience and astral travel. Damn I love K!

[Papa Verine]

I think Ketamine, DXM (high doses) and PCP are very similar. There are subtle differences but nothing I can really explain too well.

Nark, it's funny you asked about the "stuck" thing. Yes, you really can get stuck. Like, where you can't really move, or talk, or anything. It seems to take forever to go very short distances. One night I snorted a fat line of PCP powder, very good stuff. Then I proceeded to walk all night, several hours, and in the morning when I got to my destination (local train station) the total distance of the trip was only a mile or so. I can't quite figure out what I was doing. Was I taking really short baby steps all the way? Or stopping A lot? I'm not sure... I remember partying at this Biker clubhouse once. Hell's Henchman. There were a couple guys sitting on a sofa with there eye's open but they were completely gone. Just stuck like that for hours. You could wave your hands in front of their faces, or whatever and they never acknowledged anything. (Well, I couldn't do that myself, I had to be extremely careful hanging out there and not being "one of them") But I remember people doing that.

But also dipped joints are called Wikki sticks. So if you smoke a wikki stick you get stuck. Like that...

[OxyContinuously]

...what I find interesting about them is that they straddle the line between nonaddictive entheogens and addictive hard drugs.

While people do have entheogenic psychedelic experiences with NMDA antagonists, I've also heard of many cases of addiction to these three drugs.

On another forum I visit, there was a young gay guy who talked about his addiction to K and how it almost ruined his life. He claimed that he got so far into it that he got involved in the drug trade and got too high up... ya know... high up where you life is in danger 24/7... and he said that he was doing an 8 ball of ketamine a day at the height of his addiction. He eventually got busted for dealing and possession, and the DEA offered to let him go scot free if he ratted out people higher up in the chain, and did some undercover work for them. He claimed that he hated the DEA, so all he'd give them was some information, but he told them he would never work for them because he was against it morally. Apparently, the tip off about some people involved in the scene was enough, and he got off with parole and got clean.

It fascinates me, though, that dissociatives are addictive to some people. I used to trip on DXM from time to time and could never see how somebody could get a habit on that type of experience. I just wonder how the brains of people who get addicted to dissociatives are wired. It seems so unusual. And yet, it's clear that dissociatives are the so called "addictive psychedelics". Addiction to them is pretty well documented, with plenty of cases.

I'm wondering if anyone on opiophile has ever been addicted to dissociatives? If so -- what about the experience was so enticing? How could you function at all with the profound intoxication they cause?

very interesting, resorcinol
you are quite right with regard to the addiction potential of dissociatives, ketamine specifically b/c it;s one of the 'most studied,' in the group...it becomes more of a compulsive thing, very psychologically addicting, i've heard the "crave" so to speak could be just as intense as for cocaine or amphetamines..

and being what 'k' is, alot of people who would characterize themselves as 'addicted' to it say that the craving or compulsion/want to do more besides the psychological aspect is because while under k's influence, it really is an escapist mindset cuz you could literally "be" anywhere doing anything u want and it will seem so real...it's believed that after repeated use, the user seeks these altered states b/c the k they think is trying to 'teach' or 'tell' them something, a hidden message just for them,, and each time they go back ie. get k'd up again, they get closer to the *conclusion*:rolleyes:...it was interesting to see how k really alters one's perception in such a fashion to lead to such *believable* delusions-- in that way ketamine is very unique; long-term addicts also have been known to become very ego-centric and withdrawn--social interaction becomes more of a puppet routine to them--, a lot of times they start seeing these certain synchronicities and coincidences happening in day-to-day life and somehow think its just for them,, a code u know? the ego centricity really got my attention though; i mean think about that--> on what part or parts of the brain is k really doing it's work? and on how deep a level? i don't really know of any other well-known recreational drugs in the same family (dissociative anaesthetics) that behave like that...pcp doesn't induce such states of mind as deeply or profoundly as ketamine and some of the stronger ones (used in veterinary medicine usually) don't either,, they're more of just anaesthetics w/ little to no recreational value
good topic bro, pretty interesting!

[More Feen]

The few times that I've played-around with K were not too much fun, as I remember.

Usually doctor friends of mine would "borrow" a vial from their hospital, and we'd measure-out a dose and squirt it into some grape juice (it really mixed quite well, flavour-wise!).

As our use progressed, we also tried IM injections of K, I think my usual dose was ~40mg. As you would expect, the difference between an oral dose (PO) or an IM dose were present & accounted for.

Taken PO on an empty stomach, the K would sneak-up on me over 20-40 minutes before maxing-out. The IM dose was a little more aggressive, taking 5-10 minutes to peak.

With both routes of administration, I had a fair level of nausea--especially with head movement. Those who've been in a K-hole know the strange feelings and warped perceptions that it causes.

I never really felt that good while using it--also I became a bit paranoid as well. I even tried to counter that with valium before-hand, which did not work.

For 40-60 minutes I would not be able to talk or even to move very much. My arms and legs felt cold & dead (no feeling in them, not much anyways).

I usually like to have a comedy playing in the DVD so when I was ~immobile and unable to do much of anything, I could "relax" and watch the movie until I started feeling normal again.

I cannot understand how people could do this drug, and others like it, day after day.

But even the doc who shared his K with me really liked it much more than I did. Even with comparable doses, he was much more active, did not feel nauseous. He even drives around while on it (not a heavy dose, but still ).

I guess some people take to dissociative anesthetics, and others do not. I'm one of the "nots."

MF

[Narkotikon]

I think Ketamine, DXM (high doses) and PCP are very similar. There are subtle differences but nothing I can really explain too well.

Nark, it's funny you asked about the "stuck" thing. Yes, you really can get stuck. Like, where you can't really move, or talk, or anything. It seems to take forever to go very short distances. One night I snorted a fat line of PCP powder, very good stuff. Then I proceeded to walk all night, several hours, and in the morning when I got to my destination (local train station) the total distance of the trip was only a mile or so. I can't quite figure out what I was doing. Was I taking really short baby steps all the way? Or stopping A lot? I'm not sure... I remember partying at this Biker clubhouse once. Hell's Henchman. There were a couple guys sitting on a sofa with there eye's open but they were completely gone. Just stuck like that for hours. You could wave your hands in front of their faces, or whatever and they never acknowledged anything. (Well, I couldn't do that myself, I had to be extremely careful hanging out there and not being "one of them") But I remember people doing that.

But also dipped joints are called Wikki sticks. So if you smoke a wikki stick you get stuck. Like that...

That sounds EXACTLY like ketamine. After doing bumps, I'd always love to walk like you said. It's like you're trying your best, but you just can't move fast. I think it sort of looks like a Haldol shuffle, but of course not nearly as bad. Or, if you lay / sit there, you just feel like you're stuck, or sinking. You can move, but you have absolutely no desire to, and when you do try to move, you have to make yourself. I mean, it really takes an effort. When you got into a K-hole it's more like sinking, it feels like you're laying on quicksand. I love Ketamine.

Hell, maybe I would like PCP. I have just always heard such negative stuff about it. I know it's a dissociative anesthetic like Ketamine and DXM, but I just thought it was different for some reason. Like it would make me instantly insane. I don't know how else to describe it. I never had a bad reaction on Special K, so maybe PCP wouldn't be bad. That's really interesting.

[Chipper]

I was a heavy K user for a while and was psychologically addicted to it. I refused to believe I could have a good night out on it without snorting some regularly. At the end of the night I would IV a few times (80-150 mg - wow!) and then hit the sack. With higher doses you do go out to it and the experience seems shorter - it's a fine line to get right.

On lower doses I just loved the physical sensation and found it great for dancing.

Then one day I got sick of the nausea (which i always liken to motion sickness) and stopped chasing it. Now I stick to good old MDMA only when going out (with xanax or valium and H or OC afterwards).

However, I found the whole K experience very rewarding and liken it to a short acid trip.

DXM made me feel very lousy (maybe I was allergic to it) - hot, itchy, conspicuous and confused.

I would love to try PCP but it's just not around here in Australia.