hydro / darv question

[Bonnie100]

Hi,
Im just wondering if anyone knows the actual difference between davocet and hydro? I know darv's suck compared to hydro but is it weaker? or made different? just seems to be a different "feel" to it. Thanks.

[runormal]

"It is possible to classify it as a mild opioid pain-killer, however it is considered no more effective than aspirin in treating pain." Sounds like Wikipedia isn't a fan.

[clinton]

what are you asking?
theyre totally diFFerent opiates/opioids......
synthetic vs semi synthetic etc etc

[InfectedMushroom]

yup they each have totally different opioids in them. and feel free to use the search feature, much faster than waiting on replies

[Hoss]

Hydro : Hydrocodone
Darv(on) : Dextropropoxyphene

As aforementioned, two very different opioid elements indeed.

Just for reference :

H : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocodone
D : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propoxyphene

[clinton]

i take it the op is new to the opi world????

what do you currently take?
do you use regularly ?
im asking out oF curiosity,nothing more nothing less

[tonyk]

Hi,
Im just wondering if anyone knows the actual difference between davocet and hydro? I know darv's suck compared to hydro but is it weaker? or made different? just seems to be a different "feel" to it. Thanks.

You are correct in that they(darvocets) are weaker than hydro PLUS they are just entirely different in make-up. Funny, weird thing for me is; I can STILL get off of like six Darvo's taken 2 per hr and mixed with a few beers! I know this is strange but it is true. And Vics now damn near do nothing for me, even Percs are weak! I did a run of Oxy off and on for over a year and that was what killed the thrill for the vics and percs. Takes plan ole BIG H to get off now, since I have no access to anything other than the percs/vics. But.....GOOOOOLLLLYYYYYYY!!!! The DAMN STUPID DARVOCETS STILL GET ME OFF!!!! What is up with that??? I must have a real strange makeup in my brain, or rather what is left of it. :D

[God_Albino]

aside from their whole makeup, they dont feel alike at all. i fucking hate hydro and even with no tolerance can never get a buzz, but 2 or 3 darvon and a couple beers used to put me on cloud 9.

everyone always talks about how weak it is, but its my favorite weak-ass opi.

[EleusisII]

Darvs are some nasty shit, that you need to stay away from. That's all you need to know.
Many countries have removed them entirely from use, because the therapeutic index (The difference between the dose that make you feel better, and the dose that will kill you) is too low.

Probably the easiest opy to die from by itself. Shit turns toxic inside your body.

[Duckfeet]

Propoxyphene is what u eat when u can't get codeine...
Codeine is what u eat when u can't get hydrocodone...
Hydrocodone is what u eat when u can't get oxycodone...
Oxycodone is what u eat when u can't get hydromorphone...

You don't eat hydromorphone.

Heroin is where the bus stops...and you will soon wish you had gotten off the bus sooner.

[EleusisII]

Isn't propoxyphene related to methadone? Like the black sheep of the family, the loser that still lives in moms basement, and bitches about how he got fired from McDonalds? Everybody still kinda tolerates that he shows up for family occasions, even though they KNOW he's just there to get loaded for free?

[Duckfeet]

I read that in an old PDR a long time ago, when I was an e.texas border rat, and I got all excited, and started buying up--and sellling--neo-percodans, and I liked eating them w/beer, and thought they gave me a nice--tho strange--buzz. I always ate about 4-6 at a time...and I drank lots of beer, and I'd buy'em in bulk for about 4 cents a piece, and sell'em on this side up in S. Louisiana and Galveston for around 1-3 bucks in tit bars and to bikers and shit...for years I'd say mexican neo-perks (propoxyphene) and topless dancers were my main source of income...

Imagine how terrible I felt years later, when I got on Opiophile and found out what a rotten, ineffective drug propoxyphene was...I felt kind of like the guy who finds out years later than his ex-wife was really a man: defensive...but not really wanting to talk about it...:cool:


Isn't propoxyphene related to methadone? Like the black sheep of the family, the loser that still lives in moms basement, and bitches about how he got fired from McDonalds? Everybody still kinda tolerates that he shows up for family occasions, even though they KNOW he's just there to get loaded for free?

[clinton]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/DPropoxyphene.png
darvocet

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Methadone.svg
methadone

[Bonnie100]

Darvs are some nasty shit, that you need to stay away from. That's all you need to know.
Many countries have removed them entirely from use, because the therapeutic index (The difference between the dose that make you feel better, and the dose that will kill you) is too low.

Probably the easiest opy to die from by itself. Shit turns toxic inside your body.

Well this might explain what I wanted to know. Not really new to the Opi-world, just Davocet since that's all I can get right now. I get a good "feel" with them, like hydro, but after I feel really beat down, kind of a de-realization feeling. Hydro doesn't do that to me, it just makes me kind of cranky when it wears off.

Sorry I didn't know about the Wikipedia, I just wanted some personal experiences I guess. I hope it's not hurting me. I have been taking about 6 - 7 with 650 mg. of Acetametiphen in them (I think 500 of Darv.) for a couple weeks. Hopefully getting hydro today tho.

[tonyk]

Sorry I didn't know about the Wikipedia, I just wanted some personal experiences I guess. I hope it's not hurting me. I have been taking about 6 - 7 with 650 mg. of Acetametiphen in them (I think 500 of Darv.) for a couple weeks. Hopefully getting hydro today tho.[/QUOTE]

You will be fine! And congrats on your step to hydro, I think... Me and the little pink ladies will be waving goodbye to you!!!! Sooooooooo long!!!! Bud-pink ladies-and me..... happy trails!

[resorcinol]

When I was opioid naive, and I really mean naive.... at that point in my life I had only had codeine once for something when I was 10 years old or something... it took 800 mg of dextropropoxyphene for me to feel "something". Where 200 mg codeine had me glowing and 30 mg hydrocodone had me nailed to the floor nodding.

It's really weak stuff, IDK how it's considered comparable to even codeine. But some newbies swear they like darvocet better than percocet or vicodin (not lying, on another board I visit one of the benzo heads / alcoholics made this claim... maybe that's why (benzos are his DOC). he doesn't like the opioid "feel" so when he takes one he can actually feel like hydro or oxy he "feels uncomfortable" as he put it. some people do get almost geeked out by opioids and can't tolerate them i guess.)

Nowadays my tolerance is lower than it was early this summer but still there moderately. 150 mg hydrocodone still gets me nice, although not as nice as fent would (obviously). But hydrocodone reminds me of how much I prefer oxycodone over fentanyl, because although hydrocodone is weaker it feels much more similar to oxycodone than fentanyl does. makes me feind for some OC.

Chemically, hydrocodone is a semi-synthetic opioid similar to morphine in structure; d-propoxyphene (darvs) is a fully synthetic open chain opioid similar to methadone, but MUCH weaker, and with a bad binding ratio mu1:mu2.

[Duckfeet]

I started out w/heroin, and for years and years, I only injected drugs...heroin, cocaine, dilaudids, occasionally percodans or Demerol...it was only after about 20 years of this, that I started bumping into "pillheads" who actually ate dope...I never was interested...hell, I sat on about 30 percodans for *months* until I could get a rig...yeah, that's right, percodans...we just had a different mentality, oxycontin had yet to be inevented, and opiate addiction, such as it was, meant heroin addicts...

But I had ridden my Harley down to Tampico, Mexico w/a friend, and we were holed up down there for months, drinking beer, chasing girls, messing w/the shoeshine boys in the plaza...and we kept trying different shit we would get a drug stores, codeine crap, even injectable shit--I forget the name--that was supposed to be "just like morphine"...nothing...

One day after we crashed our bikes, and were a bit dinged up..I was in the drugstore *again*, and the pharmacist gave me a bunch of boxes of "neo-percodans" and I took them back to the cheap hotel we were staying at--my friend had broken his foot, crashing into me, drunk--and we both ate, I don't know, like 4 of these weird perks apiece, expecting nothing...and about an hr later we were talking, and laughing, and we both noticed that we had an opiate buzz...our overwhelming feeling was *finally!*...

Of course I had looked on the box, to see if it was "oxycodone" (the main ingredient of perks/tylox, etc.) but it said some kind of "hydropropoxyphene" or just plain "propoxyphene" ... I don't remember...but like I said: I hadn't been much of a pill guy, ever, so I didn't know shit about darvons, or what they were made of...

But the for the next three months, until immigration got sick of us, and told us to go back to U.S., we ate, like, 20-40 of them little fuckers daily, washing them down always w/beer or Bacardi rum...crazy times, I was nuts, too, had to leave my friend--who didn't speak spanish--and make my way back to the U.S. on buses and hitchhiking and shit--all the way to Louisiana, get a bunch of Harley parts--trot on back down to Mexico, and then rebuild my bike, which was fucked up by the wreck...

And then only to find out years later that these pills, which I smuggled back for years...were about as low down on the junky scale as you could go...I'm glad I didn't know that then haha :) Worse, during this time period, some baseball player got *busted* out in Calif for smuggle a bunch of the pills back...I brought back thousands, and was on some sort of "watch list" but never got caught: dogs don't catch pills...

[losangeleslifer]

Yup those "pink ladies" were kind of strange, but I ate the script and buzzed none the less.:D

[resorcinol]

I'll admit, d-propoxyphene isn't INACTIVE as some people who've desperately tried to feel effects but couldn't really distiguish from placebo have come to believe (who can blame 'em?); people who are TOTALLY opioid naive and feel nothing from d-propoxyphene just didn't take enough, but boy is it WEAK (at least it was for me).

I needed 8 100 mg Darvocets (I know, APAP... but I was younger and dumber at the time, and you can't CWE darvocets b/c d-propoxyphene napsylate is insolube in water) to get a buzz as a totally opioid naive junkie in training -- that's 800 friggin mg of d-propoxyphene.

Out of all opioid/APAP combos, why try to defeat CWE usage by junkies on friggin DARVOCET? I don't get the pharma companies sometimes. Only thing I can figure is that the napsylate salt of hydrocodone and oxycodone ARE freely solube in water, and they can't really find a water insoluble salt of those drugs that retains good bioavalibility and quick onset properties.

The times I took a sufficient dose and felt the buzz, looking back, it was an odd opioid buzz. It felt pretty toxic (but not as toxic as friggin booze feels... christ). While the euphoria was there at a subtle level, it felt uncomfortable and edgy at the same time.

I'd rather have pethidine. It's another one that you can't abuse day in and day out since it's pretty toxic (well, its metabolite is), and it's also fairly weak, weaker than hydrocodone, however, it crosses the BBB much quicker than hydrocodone dose, so 'ol pethidine's got a rush when injected. I'd wager it isn't too bad plugged either. Orally isn't worth it... bioavaliability sucks and it's already a weak drug. The rush via IV is prob pretty damn good because of the fast BBB penetration and because it also inhibits the reuptake of dopamine and norepinephrine with a weak potency, but enough to increase the rush and euphoria of the high.

There are pethidine analogs that are amazing though, and don't have toxic metabolites. Case and point: ketobemidone. Very similar structure to pethidine, but more potent (equipotent with morphine) and supposedly EXTREMELY euphoric; one of the best. I'd love to taste ketobemidone.

Also, fentanyl is kinda an analog of pethidine if you think about it. It just has that "tail" with an aromatic ring at the end that confers great potency to many opioids. Look at the opioid in my sig... it's 1000x morphine b/c of that "tail" with the terminal aromatic ring. Fentanyl is a pethidine analog with a similar "tail" with a terminal aromatic ring... fentanyl's tail sticks off the nitrogen on the piperadine ring.

[resorcinol]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/DPropoxyphene.png
darvocet

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/99/Methadone.svg/119px-Methadone.svg.png
methadone

Replaced the methadone image with one that works. For some reason the other one wasn't showing up.

I think that perhaps if that phenylmethyl group on propoxyphene was attached directly to the chain (ie, just a phenyl group without the extra CH2 there in between), the resulting opioid may be more enjoyable. However, I'm not sure how that oxygen in the middle of the chain is influencing potency and binding affinities to mu1 and mu2. The two molecules are remarkably similar and I have to wonder what about propoxyphene's structure makes it suck so much compared to methadone. Is it that oxygen in the middle of the chain, or the CH2 in between the one phenyl and the chain. The methyl on the right side of the chain is also at a different location. Moving it to the spot it is on methadone may also make for a better opioid. For some reason I doubt it's the oxygen in the middle of the chain (which lengthens the chain) that's making propoxyphene suck.

[Duckfeet]

After I learned what these mexican perks *were* I kind of wondered how an old time junky like me, would even feel them...Back then, of course, there was no online world, nothing other than the occasional PDR or something...so we didn't know...

I really thought it had *something* to do w/the fact I was a hard drinking boy in those days, and that maybe alcohol kicked it in, somehow, as the--very--few times I took darvocets--in the U.S.--without beer, I felt only "wierd" slightly out of sinc or something....

The other thought that went thru my mind was that maybe either the buffer that they used in Mexico in this particular pill was different, *or* that the propoxyphene was some other derivative...

Who knows: the obvious reply--and I understand that--was that it was "all in your head, man..." Nah...I'm actually kind of hard to convince, and I've felt nothing in recent years on drugs other people would cry for: morphine, tons of oxys, tar half the time...

And by the time I'd bumped into these stupid mexican propoxyphene deals, I had already been to prison, and had a long string of arrests for drugstore burglaries and shit...

Weirdest thing, to me (that I always "got off" on these suckers...but of course, when I would go live on the Mexican side, and do them daily...I never had a serious habit going down there...else I'da never left dope streeet on this side...

But I've taken flack before on Oyp for describing my experience w/these fuckers...who knows...doesn't make sense to me either...I always figured some day there'd be some big scandal, and it would turn out somebody had been pouring hydrocodone in the mix or something...or else the Tecate beer I lived on was hit w/opium :)

[insaneike]

Yeap Propoxyphene(Darvocet) is complete crap! and it REALLY DOES need to be completely removed from all pharmacies and hospitals! It is literally no more effective than aspirin or naproxen(aleve) in analgesic effects, it is VERY toxic at the doses it would take to actually help your pain(or get you high), and there have been many kids who steal them, from ppls med cabs and think 'fuck yeah opis!' and eat a couple, dont feel shit but maybe what a single lortab would do, so pop a couple more, then too late, done reached the toxic range...

I member when I was like 12-13 we was getting drunk n stoned, popping our 'oh so reat' adderall and found a box of someones old meds i dudes shed(some relative that had passed away teh previous year) and there were bottles of MSIR(morphine IR), Darvocets, Lortabs, Tylenol #3/4, and other random bullshit meds, nothing good, but we didnt have no toler whatsoever back then so the lortab n MSIR was pretty decent. I member the day we found em we had enver done Darvos(or any pills but lil shit like addys, hydros, n kpins) and we each took 5, didn't feel shit so decioded to sell em to the the idiots at school, well one dude went up to his house to get more drinks and before we knew it his grandparents ran out screaming asking what he took and whats going on, ect. Dude had a seizure in the kitchenand ended up in the ER for almost 2days! Scared the hell out of us, being onl 12-13yrs old having never delt with anything like this before.
I have also read about amny stories similar to what happened that night, but with ppl ending up in the ER from Propoxyphene alone, and from just a few tabs, not a handfull.
I really wish they would outlaw the shit! But I think they keep it on the market so the Dr.s can say "well we gave him something for pain", it's fucking stupid to give out darvocets when there are MUCH safer options. Not to mention OTC meds work just as good for pain.. Hell Propoxyphene really has no better analgesic effects than Aspirin and Aleve...

Sorry I just gotsta talking there... gotta love the morning dose of your meds teh ebst :cloud9:

later

Replaced the methadone image with one that works. For some reason the other one wasn't showing up.

I think that perhaps if that phenylmethyl group on propoxyphene was attached directly to the chain (ie, just a phenyl group without the extra CH2 there in between), the resulting opioid may be more enjoyable. However, I'm not sure how that oxygen in the middle of the chain is influencing potency and binding affinities to mu1 and mu2. The two molecules are remarkably similar and I have to wonder what about propoxyphene's structure makes it suck so much compared to methadone. Is it that oxygen in the middle of the chain, or the CH2 in between the one phenyl and the chain. The methyl on the right side of the chain is also at a different location. Moving it to the spot it is on methadone may also make for a better opioid. For some reason I doubt it's the oxygen in the middle of the chain (which lengthens the chain) that's making propoxyphene suck.

Well how similar two substances are chemically doesn't mean they are going to be all that similar in effects.
Take LSA and LSD for example, very similar chemically, but quiet different in effects.
There are many drugs that are very similar in chemical structure, but are way different in effects.

later