Using Methadone to come off Subs????

[Beefcake1004]

SWIM has been taking Suboxone (http://www.drugs.com/suboxone.html) for 1 1/2 years and like alot of people want off!!! He is currently @ 2mgs per day. He started with Percocets (http://www.drugs.com/percocet.html) and eventuallly abused Oxycontins (http://www.drugs.com/oxycontin.html) by snorting between 2 and five per day. This process was over a 1 1/2 year time span where he would do these drugs between 1-3 weeks, feel guilty, and then try to self-detox with the Suboxone. Let me also say so you have a better idea that SWIM was more addicted to the Subs than the Oxycontin. He went into rehab (http://www.drugs.com/forum/need-talk/possible-use-methadone-come-off-suboxone-50501.html#) in late 2006.Then, his life was still very unstable and he relapsed a few times before getting serious on his Recovery and starting the Sub maintenance with an Addiction Psychiatrist in May of 2006.
Is there anyway that SWIM can use Methadone (http://www.drugs.com/methadone.html) in small amounts(starting at 30mgs and lower dose every day) for the first five to seven days to successfully get off Suboxone. And I mean do this without getting addicted to Methadone. I have another aquaintance that had an almost identical situation than SWIM's. Also, SWIM never did Methadone except for one time. Also, to try to be clear and honest with everything there were more than a few times in this time on the Suboxone that SWIM relapsed for (few days to two weeks)on Oxycontin. It was almost like SWIM used the Subs as a crutch cause he knew he could get back on them. What I mean is he did this switch enough times where he could manage it with success. SWIM never got precipitated withdrawals. There were times hesnorted an Oxy and then took Subutex six hours later. Anyway, he wants off this Suboxone. SWIM wants to be fully clean because he feels he is not. If the Methadone can help him get off with minimal pain and disruption(so he can get by at work and the gym) then SWIM will give it a try. My other friend swears that he did the Methadone over a seven day period lowering the dose from thirty mgs to 10 mgs. HE know he is substituting one drug for another but its always been the Suboxone that he has been physically dependent on. So please anyone that has personally tried this or knows someone that has with success or without please share your experience/advice with me si I can tell SWIM. Thank You!!!!

[Duckfeet]

Couldn't sleep, saw yer post...and welcome--I think this is your 1st post...

I'll be honest, I had bad luck getting off of subs, and I know more than one person who realized--like me--that subs were a lot more addictive, than they "seemed"...and 2mg is still too high jump from...I got down fairly easily to 1mg, but when the nurse who was running my detox--1st time on subs, to get off methadone, etc--told me I could now jump, I got very sick w/withdrawals by day 3, and went back to street dope...

And then methadone--which I got off of about 3 weeks ago, but I was on a much slower detox than you are hoping for...I think after being on subs as long as you have--regardless of other drugs you have done--I'd have to say that I personally don't know of any detox as fast as you are hoping for...I do know some people have other views on here, and have managed to get off *subs* but often seem to be on other opiates, like me, after brief flurry w/abstinance...

If it were me, and I were still on subs, I'd probably try to just slowly taper down to about 1/2 mg--if you have the 8mg pills...or maybe even 1/4 mg if u have the 2mg pills, then do that same dose every other day, then jump of subs altogether...

Even tho I finally did manage to get off methadone, I fear that jumping from subs to methadone is not going to solve this...

But I"m wrong more than I'm right in most areas, so best wishes to you, and hopefully there will be some other answers...once the sun comes up...here in the U.S. anyway...:)

[Raisin]

Duck's right methadone from subs is one evil for another. If you're doing subs the best thing I've found is a slow taper and if you insuflate(snort it) it goes a lot further. I tried to jump at 2 mg and like Duck wound up back on dope and then D's but that's another story. If you really want to come off and you have any type of discipline I'd try to switch to a shorter acting( H or Morphine ) but the Done seems like trading one for the other.

Try to taper down as low as you can go and remember that most of it is mental (though I will say that trying to come off 4mgs of subs was like a 24/7 anxiety attack). If you have experience kicking done then more power to you and I wish you the best but taper taper taper and well...good luck.

[Beefcake1004]

Thank You both for your quick reply. To Duckfeet-I don't know if can we eventually talk thru my email or some other means (Im) or other phone(don't know how this communication works-been on been reading alot on different Forums but never got deep into conversation with someone yet). Anyway, I have been up all night stressing about this situation. I thought when my other friend told me he did this and he even said he was on 16 mgs. per day!!! I thought it was too good to be true. What about this scenariio-What if SWIM has been doing short acting opiates(Dope, Oxys) for the last four days without Subs and plans to do them at least until next Wednesday it will be a week since he last took Subs. What if he gave it at ry for a week he can always go back to the Subs after switching for a day or two on the short acting Opiates again??? What's the harm??? Couldn't there be that little chance that since SWIM never used Methadone it would be like the first time SWIM used Subs to come off Opiates for the first time; which worked. My email i EDIT: no email addys allowed if you want to talk privately and I would like it if we could eventually talk over the phone. I have been pulling my hair out over this situation for the last 6 months thinking of alternate ways to beat this or at least ease withdrawals. SWIM even did Ketamine and GHB a few times separately to help ease into the Subs when he relapsed for two weeks a few times. Oh by the way it worked. SWIM was also thinking of using them on alternating days to come off the Subs. It has been documented that both have worked to ease Heroin and other Opiate withdrawals. But, when SWIM heard of this other friend that sweared he used the Meth to get off the Subs for a week with minimal withdrawals and no addiction to the Meth he has been excited ever since!!!! Please respond back. I want to help SWIM!!!

[Voyager]

Your friend was just a minority case.
It's very uneasy to switch from Subs to Methadone and then taper that fast and finish with no withdrawals.
Methadone will make you 3 times worst withdrawals (mostly mental) than Subs will. If not worst, then longer lasting.
I suggest you just taper down the Subs to like 1/8mg, and slowly, like 0.25mg every second day.
That would be the best solution.
And when you come to the lower doses and if you start feeling uneasy, start with Clonopine (Clonazepame) 2mg in the morning and 2mg in the evening.
Then after 10 days after you took your last Sub dose start lowering Clonopine, till you get to zero, and you'll be fine.
But anyway, I think that after you get off of opioids, you'll need the antidepressant therapy.
I'd suggest Effexor (Venlafaxine) 75mg in the morning, for let's say 3 months.
Just for the recovery...

Anyway, I personally don't suggest you switch from Subs to Methadone and then taper off.

[Duckfeet]

I'll note yer email, and email you...but before u get in trouble w/the mods, u might do what I do, and just put your email addy in one of your *IM* slots in yer profile (under user options)... many of us now do that, and so far, that has been o.k...but anyway, I'll send u an email as soon as I wake up all the way: I was up most of night...I keep saying to myself, there hasn't been any Post Withdrawal Symptoms from the methadone detox, since I've been fairly cheerful, all that...but I do know that my sleep pattern is *all* fucked up...but thank god for blutuesday other U.S. late night nuts, and my night-owl friends across the pond, who at least give me something to *read* late at night...:)


Thank You both for your quick reply. To Duckfeet-I don't know if can we eventually talk thru my email or some other means (Im) or other phone(don't know how this communication works-been on been reading alot on different Forums but never got deep into conversation with someone yet). Anyway, I have been up all night stressing about this situation. I thought when my other friend told me he did this and he even said he was on 16 mgs. per day!!! I thought it was too good to be true. What about this scenariio-What if SWIM has been doing short acting opiates(Dope, Oxys) for the last four days without Subs and plans to do them at least until next Wednesday it will be a week since he last took Subs. What if he gave it at ry for a week he can always go back to the Subs after switching for a day or two on the short acting Opiates again??? What's the harm??? Couldn't there be that little chance that since SWIM never used Methadone it would be like the first time SWIM used Subs to come off Opiates for the first time; which worked. My email is edit: no emails if you want to talk privately and I would like it if we could eventually talk over the phone. I have been pulling my hair out over this situation for the last 6 months thinking of alternate ways to beat this or at least ease withdrawals. SWIM even did Ketamine and GHB a few times separately to help ease into the Subs when he relapsed for two weeks a few times. Oh by the way it worked. SWIM was also thinking of using them on alternating days to come off the Subs. It has been documented that both have worked to ease Heroin and other Opiate withdrawals. But, when SWIM heard of this other friend that sweared he used the Meth to get off the Subs for a week with minimal withdrawals and no addiction to the Meth he has been excited ever since!!!! Please respond back. I want to help SWIM!!!

[Voyager]

Yeah, after quitting opioids after a multi-year use, the sleep is almost always very disturbed, including the sleep pattern.
That will last for even a year, or even more, taking into account that you've been living on opioids for 20+ years.

I started with opioids when I was 14...with Tramadol, then Valoron (Tilidine), then Methadone, Morphine, Heroin. And when I made a pause with opioids in my 18th and 19th, during those year and a half of my opioid pause, my sleep was completly fucked up. And I also has severe mood swings very often.
And it lasted and lasted and lasted, it lasted during all that pause.
And everything got back to normal when I, after year and a half of not taking opioids, continued taking them again, starting with Tramadol 350mg a day, but in only a couple of months switched to Morphine 500mg a day, and in 6 months got to 3000mg of Morphine a day.

Some of us just cannot live any longer without opioids.

Etc...

[twigburst]

I agree with Voyager (http://forum.opiophile.org/member.php?u=5984), the detox off of methadone is much worse than bupe. Going on methadone is essentially shooting yourself in the foot IMO. The WD from it is so fucking long and so painful. Bupe isn't all that bad if you lower yourself enough, and its a lot quicker than methadone. Either way, good luck getting off, its a tough battle.

[clinton]

hey beeFcake do yourselF a Favor and erase your email addy

[Deadfiend]

I myself have never been on subs, had been told over and over it wouldn't work for me cause my habit was too big, got me I guess I'll never really know if they will work for me or not if I dont try them right? Anyways i'm on MMT now and have been I see at on place in time when im going o be able to come of of it, if anything most people would say im on a high dose but after a years I need to go up just to hold me all day anymore and there's so many hoops to go though when your at my dose to go up, I just dont know if its worth it anymore , I almost I feel I be better off with H, well I know I would but I dont have the money to do that they need to do something new in the U.S. like diamorphine or bring back LAAM or even try the 5 year Morphine detox that they do in Canada, anything would be better then what there doing now for drug and pain maintenance treatment which is not a damm thing, I know there trying with the therapeutic potential of MDMA as well as many other drugs, not not doing a whole lot for us right now other then Opana ER has been proposed as an alternative to methadone and a few other small things like sites like this woke for the central idea of harm reduction and what not. Well anyways I would say detox with the subs and dont go near the done.

[Duckfeet]

Nah, not me...I've got off opiates before, methadone, heroin, and the restlessness of sleep is so lightweight as to be laughable: I'm an old guy: I gotta wake up to piss...I always have trouble going back to sleep, and I fiddle around for about an hr, read, log on here, and then I get sleepy again...that is a lot closer to *normal* for me than methadone's heavy "knockout" sleep ever was...and hell, on methadone, all I had to do was sit in a chair for five minutes and I'd be nodding out...

I have always felt that the post acute withdrawal syndrome, *and* endorphin deficiency syndrome, and all that stuff came about--and seems to have been promoted a bit--by those who advocate private methadone clinics...so me, I get better every week...I've always been honest on this site: I'd be crying the blues and copping dope, or back at the methadone clinic if I hit anything even *resembling* withdrawals...nope, it started getting better at 10mg daily, and continued that way thru zero mg daily, and 3 weeks later is still o.k....

Of course, your mileage may vary...but every time I've gotten off heroin or methadone, and hung in there a few weeks, it always always got better...little bit at a time...trouble is, most of us--including me--give up, or start "cheating" w/other opys...rather than just continue w/slow detox, and then put something in our lives other than sitting around waiting to get loaded...

Just me, tho...others see it differently...I'm cool w/that//

Me, I just got tired of all the fear-mongering...got a little bit hardnosed about it...and did detox, and saw detox, the way we used to be for all these horror shows got invented...and so far, so good...

Yeah, after quitting opioids after a multi-year use, the sleep is almost always very disturbed, including the sleep pattern.
That will last for even a year, or even more, taking into account that you've been living on opioids for 20+ years.

I started with opioids when I was 14...with Tramadol, then Valoron (Tilidine), then Methadone, Morphine, Heroin. And when I made a pause with opioids in my 18th and 19th, during those year and a half of my opioid pause, my sleep was completly fucked up. And I also has severe mood swings very often.
And it lasted and lasted and lasted, it lasted during all that pause.
And everything got back to normal when I, after year and a half of not taking opioids, continued taking them again, starting with Tramadol 350mg a day, but in only a couple of months switched to Morphine 500mg a day, and in 6 months got to 3000mg of Morphine a day.

Some of us just cannot live any longer without opioids.

Etc...

[Beefcake1004]

I guess everyone is saying I have no shot @ getting this to work. Can I emphasize one more time that 1) There has been short term opiate use over the last week and no Subs since Tuesday 2)the first time Meth has been used as a detox 3) Meth usage will start around 30-40 mgs amd taper down to 10 mgs. I guess what I am asking is-SWIM will be addicted on the Meth after five to seven days or will the SWIM's brain not know the differene between the Meth, Subs, OXY/Heroin and basically be a continuation of Opiate usage. SWIM is far from lacking knowledge on these issues but I guess maybe there is a chance that the Meth will act like the Subs did for him on the first detow he did. If it doesn'ty work(if SWIM did decide to try it anyway) he will use short actring Opiates for a day or two and switch back to Subs-Please understand SWIM is getting totally honest here. He messed up again for the first time in a while and has been using a combination of Oxys and shooting H for the first second time and is a little scared. For example, from last night to now he has been using the H and a few days before that it was the Oxys and Monday was the H and a few days of Oxys. It has been a total of ten days of short acting Opiate usage. Also, SWIM usually uses the Subutex-finds it definitely better on the initial beginnnig phase of Derox than the Suboxone. SWIM has also used Ketamine on the first day or two and helped substantialyy especially with the hot/cold sweats(which is the worst part of it all with him(and the hate myself, depression, fatigue, not-feel -like -doing anything feeling). SWIM has also got back into the gym (working out for twenty years with a three year layoff-did first Oxy in May of 2005(snorted it of course cause I have always been excessive with everything I do). Used GHB once on the first day and that worked. I know what you guys are saying to yourself with using these other chemicals but that's why SWIM is really just sick of all this. SO FREAKIN DEPRESSED LATELY OVER THIS STICKIN SUBOXEN. SWIm only has like four left. He last saw an Addiction Psychiatrist in April of this year and she gave him a script for like 200 8 mg pills(21 pills with 10 refills which was decreased to five refills) SWIM is also struggling financially and has been putting off trying to call the Sub doctor(do not know if she will even say yes to an appt). Well anyway, sorry for the Babbling. I do this alot when I an stressing. I am sitting here typing instead of getting in the shower to go to a Bday party_Avoid social stuations after short acting Opiate use gets to a week or more. But, I am going to go for a little bit and try to break these bad habits. I got no sleep last night for a buch of reasons, one of them being worrying over this. Okay, I will let you go and relive you of the mass confusion I just put you in with my story. I'm sure I am not the only one out there. Thank You again with the Meth success or non successs, ANYBODY?????

[Tea Time]

I agree with Voyager (http://forum.opiophile.org/member.php?u=5984), the detox off of methadone is much worse than bupe. Going on methadone is essentially shooting yourself in the foot IMO. The WD from it is so fucking long and so painful. Bupe isn't all that bad if you lower yourself enough, and its a lot quicker than methadone. Either way, good luck getting off, its a tough battle.

I agree - you definitely don't want to try to come off of sub with 'done. Coming off of 'done is arguably much tougher than coming off of sub. I know it is not fun coming off of suboxone, but I think you would be much better toughing it out than trying to use 'done to come off of suboxone.

[Duckfeet]

I think it's kind of hard to say, really, how it will go: I personally believe you could do it, maybe without much problems, but a lot will depend on what your life is like, and how much things other than opiates you have to keep you reasonably happy...I've *never* had any luck detoxing off any opiates as long as I just thought I'd be happy once I got off them...so after 3 or 4 days detoxing, I'd always say fuck it, and go get some dope...

And when it's jumping between different opiates, it is *so* hard to say...I will say that you are kind of trying to do what some very expensive detoxes do....kind of...for example, Meditox, out in Palm Beach, would take you off methadone by giving you oxys for a week, then switch you to subs...then do about a 1 month detox...

I myself have found that if, when kicking heroin, that if I can wait until my serious withdrawals have begun--day two--and then--thru luck or "rarely" planning--I bump into a few short acting opys, that this often helps immensely, and even kind of stops the serious withdrawals...

The problem with this, is, that I have *no* willpower whatsoever w/this shit, and no matter *what* I say going in...if I'm *sick* I'll eat every opiate in my drawer...and "slow taper" be damned...that to me is the *real* problem: can u really control your own detox, if there is relief at hand? I never could, tho god knows I tried enough times...

So don't be distressed over all this: your questions are legitimate, and we've all been where you are: trying to get off some kind of opiate, but unwilling to go thru the cold turkey horrors we all fear...I have seen many reasonable attempts made by people on here, to bounce between different opys...with varying degrees of success...I think it's probably just hard for us to predict something *so* subjective in nature...

But of course, I do wish you well...

[Hoss]

I myself have found that if, when kicking heroin, that if I can wait until my serious withdrawals have begun--day two--and then--thru luck or "rarely" planning--I bump into a few short acting opys, that this often helps immensely, and even kind of stops the serious withdrawals...

The problem with this, is, that I have *no* willpower whatsoever w/this shit, and no matter *what* I say going in...if I'm *sick* I'll eat every opiate in my drawer...and "slow taper" be damned...that to me is the *real* problem: can u really control your own detox, if there is relief at hand? I never could, tho god knows I tried enough times...

Amen. I've made myself believe myself that I would stick to "the regimen" many-o-time, however, I usually flop here and there, all over the place, and end up deeper in the pool, eventually - but that's just me.

Not impossible, but, definitely thin ice - at least in my own experiences. I tried one time to kick Bup with Oxy... BAD CHOICE. Talk about walking into the fire...

[Saint]

I always stick to my regimen. Last time I stayed OFF methadone for 7 months while I had about 100 subs in my drawer and even more methadone. Problem was I didn't get better after 7 months and enough is enough at some point. So the willpower was there but my body wouldn't cooperate somehow.
I don't know about using done to get off subs.. you seem to have your mind set on this and it might work if you really do a quick taper.. I'll keep my fingers crossed for ya..

[Beefcake1004]

Thank You to all (especiallly you Duckfeet) for you responses. I will still give this some serious thought by considering everything all of you say. Being Around the HOLIDAYS sure doesn't help either!!! Talk Soon!!!

[EleusisII]

Meh to confuse you even more, but have you thought about going on oxycodone for 7-10 days, until the bupe is out of your system, and then quit?
I'd prefer the 4 days of agony of that, over the prolonged withdrawal of methadone or bupe...

[Duckfeet]

Meh to confuse you even more, but have you thought about going on oxycodone for 7-10 days, until the bupe is out of your system, and then quit?
I'd prefer the 4 days of agony of that, over the prolonged withdrawal of methadone or bupe...

I kind of like that theory: it's how rich-people detoxes often do, *particularly* when switching from methadone to subs...and since subs, too, are long acting--tho weird--why wouldn't it also work here...and just for the record, I actually *did* hang on to my oxys, and only do them twice a day, as the doc had told me to, while switching, and didn't feel any bad w/drawal symptoms...until I jumped off the subs at 1mg...which I think is a bit high...but again, I don't have *near* the experience w/subs, that I do w/methadone...and methadone, to me, is "the devil I know..."

Thank You to all (especiallly you Duckfeet) for you responses. I will still give this some serious thought by considering everything all of you say. Being Around the HOLIDAYS sure doesn't help either!!! Talk Soon!!!

You just hang in there: whether yer doing opys or not: u'll sort out what you need to do: and I agree about the holidays: I had decided that if I *couldn't* get off methadone, a month or so before this holiday insanity started, that I would just stay at a reasonable dose: 30-50mg daily, until all my relatives went home, then start slow taper...but it was going pretty good, and I figured I'd be done by beginning of Nov, if all went well, and so far, it has...best wishes to you...

I always stick to my regimen. Last time I stayed OFF methadone for 7 months while I had about 100 subs in my drawer and even more methadone. Problem was I didn't get better after 7 months and enough is enough at some point. So the willpower was there but my body wouldn't cooperate somehow.
I don't know about using done to get off subs.. you seem to have your mind set on this and it might work if you really do a quick taper.. I'll keep my fingers crossed for ya..

Yes: I too could keep subs in my drawer: w/those I didn't seem to have the same problem as I did holding on to any short-acting ehporia producing opiates...I knew I still had subs around, during my methadone detox, even after I got rid of most of them, some time back, and a couple days ago, when cleaning up piles of computer junk I was getting rid of, I found a little bag where I had 4 new syringes, and a bottle of 8mg subutex...I disposed of all of them, and rigs, as I felt alright now about detox: hasn't been bad, seems to be getting better...

If I wanted dope I'd go down and get some tar, or go back to doc who perscribes me morphine and norcos...subs never did much for me, but get rid of w/drawal symptoms...and since this time I did taper slow enough I didn't get any w/drawal symptoms...(I'd say if I did)...most days I forgot I was coming off anything...

And I agree w/u that we are all different, some do have some willpower, but it seems harder to maintain, the worse the detox and withdrawal symptoms...once it gets really bad, most of us junkies say "the hell with it...."

[Beefcake1004]

Yo Duckfeet!!! I'm sure you get this alot since joining this site but I want to talk to you someday off the site thru(private email, Im, or even phone(my dime) about these topics, our even other aspects of life. I just got done reading the Ultimate Sub Guide and I'm always saying to myself while I am not looking forward to jumping back to Subs after a 10 day run(especially with Thanksgiving on Thursday so it will probably be 14 days-Friday-1st day of Detox-sick. I'm sic and tired of telling Family that I am trying to stop Subs and I don't feel good-definitely not gonna tell them that I just got done spending like the sum of my rent money(I'll let you guess-too embarassed to get that honest) over the last two weeks on my DOC and now I have added H to the mix at a bun a da-Oh and I forgot I'm IVing too now!!! Anyway I feel you ramble like I do but in a good way. You make it easy for people to come on hear and talk. And that's not ass-kissing cause I got no reason to do that. It's just the truth. It sounds like your in San Diego or Mexice, or both. My ex-girl and her daughter moved out to San Diego last year. Her daughter is Mexican and aome of her fanilt live in SD. Give me a shout when you can. I have never tried to message someone on here but I will give it a try. This was the best way I thought cause you just posted here. I think I am giving up on using the Meth to come off the Subs. Since I took almost a week break from the Subs I will take(or try to anyway) no more than 8 mg in my first 2 days then lowering 2mgs over the next three days with the intent of getting back to the 2 mgs(I was on before this last relpase, it all started on Halloween when the Phillies had their parade) @ day 6. Then half my dose either for 1 week or two week until I get to .25 mgs. Then try using .25 mgs every 2nd, for a week or two, them every third day for a week or two, then every 4th, 5th, then jumping off. I do consider myself a pretty knowledgeable Sub user from both personal usage and a whole lot of reading(more reading when I relapsa then when I am clean-sorry but that's then way it is, when I AM CLEan I AM INTO THE GYM(WHICH i TOOK OFF MORE THAN A MONTH) AND FOCUSING ON MY CAREER CHANGE I HAVE NOT MADE IT TO THESE SITES AS MUCH but I should surround myself with people like you that won't blast me when I am honest and knows wwhat I am goinf thru because that has been one of the main problems since being Intervened on by my family in Nov '06. I had to get rid of most of my so called friends that used me for mt money and it's hard to talk to my family because I cannot be honest with them. If I was they would be holding me under even more of a microscope than they do know. If I do not call my Mom back after two or three times by the third or fourth day she will be getting my Aunt to call who lives a couple of blocks away or probably would get someone to pay a visit. Plus, I borrow money off of her from time to time(which I always pay back) because the timing of my money is always screwed up and my creditors being the DICKHEADS they are never seem to give me a break. WELL HERE I GO RAMBLING ON AND ON. Like I said maybe we can talk some time and have a good night. Going to check out the Heroi-Detox site for a while. On the O's right now and gonna try to limit my use to 240 mgs tomorrow then 120 on Wednesday and Thursday. PEACE!!!!

[Duckfeet]

We aren't allowed to post that stuff on here, but if you just click on my username--duckfeet--it will show my operamail website--where u can figure out my email...or just look in the IM slots, since that seems o.k....so far...I check email every other day or so, and always glad to chat that way....

Best wishes, I agree, for the holidays, I'd just find a stable dose of mdone or subs, and try to just stay there until all the craziness is done...if I hadn't of quit a few weeks ago, I wouldn't even think of quitting now...I'd be drunk, crazy, *and* chasing heroin somewhere if I started any kind of kicking around my crazy family....

Best wishes...sounds like you're coming to terms w/all this...and that's the main thing...For most of my young life I just wanted more dope...but there finally came a time when I just couldn't hang in the crazy life anymore...and judges loose their sense of humor once u get older, too...they keep Folsom Prison open for a reason...in old days we said "Folsom is Final" because it often is...

Yo Duckfeet!!! I'm sure you get this alot since joining this site but I want to talk to you someday off the site thru(private email, Im, or even phone(my dime) about these topics, our even other aspects of life.

<snip>

[Beefcake1004]

OK!!! Sounds Good. I already went on and asked accept you as a friend, like My Space I guess????

[Duckfeet]

Yep,...but I just have email...u click on my username "duckfeet" and it will give u options...eventually you'll see how my email is put together...or just go to "contact info" on my profile page here, and u'll see...not hard to figure at all...well, scratch that, probably took me a couple of years on here, and being admin and mod, to finally figure half this shit out my own self...we are just real gunshy about posting email addys on here, and this is only loophole allowed...so we kind of fiddle with them until we figure it out....

[Beefcake1004]

Ok!!! Thank You again. You might want to check your mail. I think SWIM HAS SENT YOU SOMETHING!!!