PDA

View Full Version : Agonist, partial agonist, antagonist as I understa


resorcinol
11-21-2008, 10:04 PM
nd it.

This was a response to a question by a friend on AIM that got out of hand due to me having a touch of speed in my system.

Agonists, Antagonists, and Partial Agonists

+++What I typed Like a Madman+++
buprenorphine does have a high binding affinity and potency, I'll give it that. buprenorphine is a far stronger analgesic in opioid naive individuals than methadone is (buperenorphine is quite a potent euphorien in opioid naive people too), by far (the EXACT OPPOSITE is true in opioid tolerant patients... then methadone is the superior analgesic).

At low doses (i'm talking like 50 to 1000 mcg), buprenorphine's actions are pretty much indistinguishable from that of a full agonist opioid. However partial agonist drugs are subject to a ceiling effect of a different kind than drugs like codeine. The ceiling effect that bupe has occurs because it begins to lose its agonist properties as dose increases. In fact, if around 20 mg (official literature says 32 mg but I don't agree) won't hold an addict out of w/d fully b/c their habit is too large, buprenorphine cannot be used to maintain them unless they're willing to taper, using a full agonist, their tolerance down a bit.

I'm going to explain why buprenorphine looses its agonist properties to a degree as the dosage increases; this is important. First, lets understand what a full agonist actually does. A full agonist doesn't attach to a receptor and stay exactly put with the receptor in the ON position like a switch.... it doesn't work that way. Rather, a drug (which I'll call a ligand from now on) needs to be able to repeatedly "activiate" the mu receptor... the mu receptor is more like one of those button switches where when you apply pressure it turns on, but bounces back to off when pressure is taken off. Also, if locked into "on" by being continuously pressed down... the light also goes off. So using this analogy, a full agonist needs to be able to turn it on, let it turn off, but rapidly turn it back on yet again.... repeat ad nauseum. Full mu agonists do this by seating in the receptor in such a way that they "bounce" between two different conformations. Mu receptors are a protein, and proteins "fold"... you may remember from biology. The ligand and the mu receptor form something called a ligand-receptor complex. A full agonist ligand needs to attach, turn the folding of the mu receptor into the position that starts its signal transduction (turns it on to signal its message to the nerve cell) and then "bounce" into another conformation that turns the receptor off, but then rapidly "bounce" back into the folded position that sends another signal. A full agonist acts on the mu receptor like someone pressing a button at rapidfire pace repeatedly since the receptor can't STAY on from being activated once. Full agonists accomplish this by being able to bind to the receptor in two conformations: the one that sends the signal / turns it on, and another conformation that is "off"... sends no signal (but the "off" conformation with an full agonist bound doesn't need to be the same conformation as the completely unbound receptor... in fact, it isn't ever).

An ANTagonist at the mu receptor is such a ligand that it can only bind to the mu receptor in one conformation and it STAYS there... so even drugs that at first turn mu "ON" and take that conformation... they're still antagonists if they can't switch to another conformation briefly in order to "reset" the receptor to let it be turned on again and again.

A partial agonist acts much like an agonist at low plasma concentrations, but it has DIFFICULTY locking itself into the second, "off" confomation, and tends to lock up after awhile and not be able to witch back and forth. But, at the low concetrations in plasma, the partial agonist more often leaves the receptor, opening it up for another molecule of the ligand to bind, and struggle to switch between the two conformations. So even though they struggle, because blood levels are low, the partial agonist ligand frequently leaves any one mu receptor totally to allow a new partial agonist ligand molecule to attach...so it recreates the full agonist effect in a crude way. But, as blood conc of the ligand increases, there is more pressure for each partial agonist ligand to stay bound to its receptor. This is called Le Chatelier's Principle in equilibrium chemistry. So the bound partial agonists ligands get locked up from time to time and act briefly as antagonists at some of the receptors. Sometims they escape the lockjaw and agonize again... this is why partial agonists don't become antagonists at high doses, but the amount of agonism is limited to a ceiling... and that ceiling is how often the partial agonist can unlock itself out of one conformation... since the receptors are all saturated with the partial agonist because there's lots in your blood (Le Chatelier's). This means that above a certain dose, agonist effects of mu will not increase with a partial agonist.

Buprenorphine is a partial agonist. At the low doses where its effects are quite indistinguishable from those of an full agonist, the physical dependence potential is the same. However, when it hits the ceiling of agonism, withdrawal from understimulation of mu is pretty easy to hold back with just the occasional unlocking of bupe from its stuck conformation. Not all partial agonists are created equally either, they lie on a spectrum of how tough it is for them to unlock from the stuck conformation. Stuff like butorphanol or nalbuphine... nasty stuff... have a REALLY tough time unlocking at their ceiling doses... they can ALMOST act like antagonists at those doses. Bupe has a bit of a struggle with it, but unlocks and activates mu frequently enough to prevent w/d and to a degree, cravings, up to 20 mg for the average person. However, the amount it unlocks to reactivate mu enough to cause euphoria and analgesia... the more desirable effects .... stops becoming enough after only like 1 or 2 mg. This is why bupe is “less is more” with euphoria and hard to get off on for people with a big tolerance.

+++End of What I Typed like a Madman+++

If my understanding is plain wrong, or just a bit off, let me know.

Duckfeet
11-22-2008, 12:26 AM
I appreciate you posting that...and I'm awaiting followups to it...because you know, the horrilble "legends" are already beginning w/bupe: that it kicks *itself* out at higher doses...

Since most of us don't have your chemical knowledge...it's kind of like in the old days, when we are all convinced methadone "got in your bones" since it took so long to fully detox of it...it's just street explanations, but it's also how people explain things, when they don't know what is really going on...or why, for example, w/bupe, higher doses can produce unpleasant side effects, mimicking withdrawal symptoms...

This also explains why methadone clinics make you drop *way *down in dose, before you can switch to suboxone...usually around 30mg daily....

Anyway, thanks for taking the time: it's something I try hard to understand, since bupe never worked for me, and less was more..but also, it was much harder to kick, than I thought: I found methadone easier, after two attempts w/bupe....

Narkotikon
11-22-2008, 05:07 PM
Anyway, thanks for taking the time: it's something I try hard to understand, since bupe never worked for me, and less was more..but also, it was much harder to kick, than I thought: I found methadone easier, after two attempts w/bupe....

LOL. That's scaring me again. The whole reason Resorcinol posted this is because I asked him if he thought I would have a hard time getting off of Subs as I did have when I got off MMT. In other words, since bupe is a partial agonist, will it be as bad as a full agonist like methadone. I expect it to last a long time like methadone, because of it's long half-life, but I thought maybe since it's a partial agonist, it wouldn't be quite as bad as a full agonist like methadone.

We shall see.

Duckfeet
11-22-2008, 06:06 PM
Look: I have some pretty strong opinions on methadone detoxes...but on subs, I only tried'em a couple of times: once in an expensive detox, and once on maint w/a locat doc--both times subutex--and I think maybe I never gave either a chance to succeed....the truth is that *I* had heard so many horror stories, that when I got down to 1mg, and "jumped" ... as soon as I felt bad I went back to methadone...and I think if I had hung in there another day or two, I might've gotten off'em without having to go back to mdone....so I'd listen to other people, for sure, as, again, my experience w/subs is limited...


LOL. That's scaring me again. The whole reason Resorcinol posted this is because I asked him if he thought I would have a hard time getting off of Subs as I did have when I got off MMT. In other words, since bupe is a partial agonist, will it be as bad as a full agonist like methadone. I expect it to last a long time like methadone, because of it's long half-life, but I thought maybe since it's a partial agonist, it wouldn't be quite as bad as a full agonist like methadone.

We shall see.

Narkotikon
11-22-2008, 06:11 PM
I wasn't saying you're wrong or anything. I just meant that from what Resocrinol told me it was sort of reassuring, and then after I read what you wrote it got me scared again. That's all.

jacky
01-24-2009, 12:13 PM
yep, for me, less buprenorphine,...is more. the larger amounts that I took on a regular basis, after a few weeks, really started dragging me down. and my sleep became very troubled.

an interesting area of antagonist/agonist research recently is the opioid containing plant...
picralima nitida.

this plant contains a range of alkaloids...with a pretty complex arrangement of antagonist/agnost and multi receptor site activity.

I have researched this plant for about 4 years.
the seed material is the prolific source of alkaloids taken from the plant.

the seeds in raw form, are very very acrid and bitter. very hard to swallow. I researched the effects of some 20 grams of the raw powdered seed. mild effects, some nausea, dizziness...mild stimulation...and possibly later a strange itchy rash like lump on my forehead that wasnt too uncomfortable...but did go away quite slowly, as in over a weeks time. I dont know if this rash was really a reaction to something in the seeds...but it did happen the same 24 hour period that I took the seeds.
one chemist who seperated a 70% alkaloid extract for me explaine his opinion that the alkaloids had mild "iboga" like stimulation. I have never consumed large enough amounts of iboga type alkaloids really to discern a similiarity tween the two. I did research a little with small amounts of the alkaloid material...but never more than a few hundred milligrams...so maybe 100 or so milligrams of actual alkaloids were consumed. I lost interest in the plant, mainly because of the rash like bump. but I never did have a reaction like that, consuming the alkaloid extract.

a few years later, and a new 98% extract is avialable. and its also an augmented isolation extract. some of the alkaloidal isolates have been removed.
I am trying to find out which ones specifically...but as I dont talk to the lab that produced this...I have no informatioon except that akuammine is the prominent alkaloid.

heres a run down of what might be considered the most interesting of the range of alkaloids in the seed.

akuammine....a mu agonist with some antagonist activity reported as well.

akuammicine...a full kappa agonist

akuammidine....an alkaloid with complex activity according the data, in that it is reported to have delta, kappa, and mu activity.


my guess is...just conjecture..that akuammicine might have been one of the compounds taken out of the mixture of alkaloids. I am sure there are probably some traces of the all the alkaloids.
I suspect some fairly sophisticated equipment was use in the seperation of the new 98%

kappa agonists might limit some of the mu activity of the other compounds maybe?

and what about this compounds akuammidine....sounds like a compound that might have been targeted as well for removal?

one possibility of this augmented alkaloid blend...is that it has stronger activity, than the natural percentages of the full spectrum alkaloid...due to the removel of competitive agonist/antagonist like compounds.

and that is what some people are claiming...as this painkiller, malarial phyto medicine from africa, is gaining more interest in the western world.

I am really hoping that the kappa agonist akuammicine, if it is taken out, is made avialable for study as well. kappa agonists have their potential.

the main research paper that I pull my conjecture from states that the alkaloid blend as a total, seems to have pretty much neglible opioid effect overall. I dont know the terms enough though, so its very possible that I am misunderstanding something in the data.
the whole issue is real complex.

people do use this material as a pain medicine though...so its obvious that it has some effect. and now, with manipulation...we might discover soon that we have a range of compounds taken from this plant that could have potential going in different directions!

its like the opposite of opium. in opiums natural form...with natural antagonist included...the opium seems stronger than the isolates alone. animal model studys have suggested this, and studies in humans comparing opium, morphine, codeine, and heroin addicts....opium seems to at least in some research, be a stronger substance to withdrawl from than even heroin.
a statement like that is probably wrong from a few perspectives.....such as taking in the account of the variability of reaction in an animals biological reactions.

with picralima nitida, at this point I think its highly probable that with augmentation...you have an increase of potential as an analgesic.

its such a damn complicated thing though....someone like me trying to chase around probabilitys is just like treading water in a wave pool.

but at least we still have bioassays to consider.
subjective and anecdotal as it is....its inevitably the whole point of this type of study. whats it going to do in I.

I still have a range of 70-80% alkaloid picralima alkaloids, full spectrum in my plant research collection. and I just got a sample of this 98% material.

now this is just far flung conjecture...but what if you could have a mildly psychoactive isolated kappa agonist from this plant.
a blend of mostly mu acting alkaloids....
and an isolated compound that has low activity for the mu, but also a blend of the delta/kappa influence of reducing tolarance/ breathing problems...
and finally, the full spectrum blend, which could be taken with all of the above possibly to bolster even the low potency natural potential of the plant.

it will be interesting to say the least, watching this play out. I am hoping that the chemists who did the seperation/isolation are saving all fractions of their research. even if we are just talking a few milligrams of some compounds.

I believe that the mu active akuammine is by far the most prolific single alkaloid in the mixture.

I think this one is ripe for the picking, so to speak...and hopefully we will see some analog studies of the singular components.

hearing a student of pharmacognosy's take on these alkaloids will be interesting.

Motown
01-24-2009, 02:12 PM
wha....? Whew - WAY over the head of Motown. Not sure I understand. Ya'll are some smart mofo's. :D
I'll try and keep up. Cliff notes, anyone? Translations for dummies? :o

Paregoric Kid
01-24-2009, 06:46 PM
and then there are inverse agonists and antagonists and irreversible agonists and antagonists

jacky- have you found any info on the metabolism of akuammine? I've read that it may be metabolized into something stronger, in the same way mitragynine is metabolized into 7-hydroxymitragynine (both akuammine and mitragynine are indoles).

Motown
01-24-2009, 06:57 PM
nice.......

jacky
01-25-2009, 02:23 PM
I havnt found anything specifially P. K. about akuammine being metabolized into something more potent...just some conjecture.