How do they make tar?

[limestoneman]

I've been curious as to how they create black tar heroin for a long time, and could never find out why. Being from MI, I've never seen tar in my life. How do they do it?

[Narkotikon]

With sugar, sprinkles, sunshine, kisses, and lots of love! :D

Every gram you buy is like getting a big, fat, wet, sloppy Mexican kiss.

[Duckfeet]

In South Guerrero province, in Mexico...they've got a very well known ex-pharmacy student, who uses an old washtub, and boils down a bunch of poppy leaves into goo...then takes a piss in it "para buena suerte" then throws in last month's backyard fentanyl which his 'suegra' told him "had to go" and stirs it all up, then lets it bake in the sun until it's all sticky...lays it all out on an old tarp, killing the rats that get in it every morning...then when it's *almost* hard, he scrapes it into 1kilo bags and ships it north...

[DCBA]

I think that they don't extract well the morphine, and they obtain a mix of many opium alkaloids and plant oils as their morphine extraction product.
Then they acetylate it like its done in Asia, but cause they got an impure product in the begining they will get an impure product that contains heroin and other opiates in a sluggy substance.

[rockbottom]

In South Guerrero province, in Mexico...they've got a very well known ex-pharmacy student, who uses an old washtub, and boils down a bunch of poppy leaves into goo...then takes a piss in it "para buena suerte" then throws in last month's backyard fentanyl which his 'suegra' told him "had to go" and stirs it all up, then lets it bake in the sun until it's all sticky...lays it all out on an old tarp, killing the rats that get in it every morning...then when it's *almost* hard, he scrapes it into 1kilo bags and ships it north...



cool----

[earthenone]

With most of the tar i've seen i'd have to agree with duck...lol

[SurfRat]

In South Guerrero province, in Mexico...they've got a very well known ex-pharmacy student, who uses an old washtub, and boils down a bunch of poppy leaves into goo...then takes a piss in it "para buena suerte" then throws in last month's backyard fentanyl which his 'suegra' told him "had to go" and stirs it all up, then lets it bake in the sun until it's all sticky...lays it all out on an old tarp, killing the rats that get in it every morning...then when it's *almost* hard, he scrapes it into 1kilo bags and ships it north...


...in a Donkeys ass.


The *traditional* way.

[Opiyum]

Even a thread with these descriptions peak my interest in tar. I wish it were available in the circuit I deal in.

[InfectedMushroom]

no...you don't

[SynthMorph]

It's basically acetylated opium and some versions are opium that has been strengthened with morphine pills and then acetylated. Some versions are filtered and cleaner than others but thats basically it.

[D-Stabilized]

Yeah, much as I love all opiates, I've never been able to get myself to inject that brown, gooey shit into my veins. China white - now that's a different story.

Guess I'm just a pussy...

[Duckfeet]

No: you're smart...the main problem is all the crap in it, and whatever it's made with really does harden and destroy your veins, and just about every regular user I know down here has had to go to ER for abcesses, sometimes really bad ones...I just worry that it's spreading, and since it's cheap to make, and since junkys *will* buy it, that good clean well-made heroin might be a thing of the past, eventually...why *wouldn't* the dealers buy and sell tar: they don't give a shit about junies...oh sure, the rock stars and shit can always have it shipped in from Thailand...but the rest of us??? Me, I'd be headed back to dialudid territory...


Yeah, much as I love all opiates, I've never been able to get myself to inject that brown, gooey shit into my veins. China white - now that's a different story.

Guess I'm just a pussy...

[D-Stabilized]

No: you're smart...the main problem is all the crap in it, and whatever it's made with really does harden and destroy your veins, and just about every regular user I know down here has had to go to ER for abcesses, sometimes really bad ones...I just worry that it's spreading, and since it's cheap to make, and since junkys *will* buy it, that good clean well-made heroin might be a thing of the past, eventually...why *wouldn't* the dealers buy and sell tar: they don't give a shit about junies...oh sure, the rock stars and shit can always have it shipped in from Thailand...but the rest of us??? Me, I'd be headed back to dialudid territory...

Exactly why I've always tried to stick with low-residue dilaudid tablets and a micron filter to satisfy my needle fixation. Despite having used up ALL of my veins over the years, I've never had a single abscess or infection (not even cotton fever) due to the needle in my entire drug-taking career. How many people can say that?

[Opiyum]

no...you don't

Your right. In reality I don't want a connection for that shit. Powder servers it's purpose well but I would like to get a hold of a gram of tar just because like most opiophiles I like to try everything at least once. I wouldn't want to have tar be my mainstay though....for obvious reason's.

[hydrocodonious]

Fellow socal tarhead here...this shit really fucking sucks. Yea some of it can be good, as i have never experienced any other type of smack, but its all ive got here in the los angelas area...

[jonny-5]

Every gram you buy is like getting a big, fat, wet, sloppy Mexican kiss.

from a diseased tijuana hooker...

[dieselbaby]

It's basically acetylated opium and some versions are opium that has been strengthened with morphine pills and then acetylated. Some versions are filtered and cleaner than others but thats basically it.

I've seen you post this way too many times to not finally say something. This is WRONG - please don't spread misinformation. I'm guessing that being from Ontario you've never even had or seen tar. Please don't take this as me being a dick or flaming you, I know it's hard to interpret text online so I just wanted to point it out.

Tar is the way it is because the original extraction of the morphine from the poppies was poorly done.

[SurfRat]

I've seen you post this way too many times to not finally say something. This is WRONG - please don't spread misinformation. I'm guessing that being from Ontario you've never even had or seen tar. Please don't take this as me being a dick or flaming you, I know it's hard to interpret text online so I just wanted to point it out.

Tar is the way it is because the original extraction of the morphine from the poppies was poorly done.

How do we know this? I mean acetylated opium or poorly extracted morphine...

Is there any way to tell, or is it that you can't acetylate (?) morphine until it has been... uh made into a salt? or something like that?

Do we assume it is probably not cost effective to acetylate pharmaceutical morphine?

And by poorly done, we mean not purified or cleaned or not done right in the first place or both?

[D-Stabilized]

How do we know this? I mean acetylated opium or poorly extracted morphine...

Is there any way to tell, or is it that you can't acetylate (?) morphine until it has been... uh made into a salt? or something like that?

Do we assume it is probably not cost effective to acetylate pharmaceutical morphine?

And by poorly done, we mean not purified or cleaned or not done right in the first place or both?

Do we have a mouse in our pocket?
We are not amused.
We are logging off now - bye...

j/k, of course. :D

BTW: Does anyone remember what old TV show that phrase, "We are not amused" comes from?

[Duckfeet]

I'm kind of w/surfrat on this one...not thru chemical knowledge, but mostly because of longterm knowledge of southern mexico, and tar itself, which I think in the early days, when it was mostly/only seen up around Chicago, it was pretty consistent...but see, Mexico, isn't like previous providers of Heroin, and has no central heroin authority, or highly valued chemists that make this stuff...and it's not hard to see how--in an attempt to make profits, the quality--and forms of *making* heroin, became diverse...

We gotta remember this is an *underground* thing, and since it is *totally* a seller's market, there is *no* incentive to make real heroin anymore...since a sick junky--me too--will steal a t.v. set, and spend his last dime on crap, if that's all there is...we don't like "shop around..."

So unless someone is going around and testing w/chemical analysis, *all* the tar, from San Diego to Los Angeles to Chicago to Corpus Christi(just places I've scored, and seen the totally different manifestations of this crap), it seems to me it would be difficult...fuck that: *impossible* to make any kind of reasonable online chemical assumptions on what *tar* is...

Yeah, once in a while in El Paso or Chicago, u might actually get something a little closer to heroin...but so what? Why should the providers bother? The quality has gotten so bad, with tar, in the last 20 years...that I just can't bring myself to call it heroin...it's just too innacuratea term anymore...now it's some kind of wretched vein destroying pseudo-opiate, and if most of us heroin addicts could avail ourselves of even the cut-to-shit power used to be here last century thru the seventies, tar woulda never took off...

to me it's just like the cheapo guitars u'd see hanging from all the tourist traps in tijuana: look just like good guitars...and if you'd never *had* a real guitar, u might be fooled...Mexico has been in shambles from it's beginnings, and bitter that their northern neighbor is so successful...tar is just another attempt to hustle the gringos...why not? We're not exactly swimming the Rio Grande to get down *there...*


How do we know this? I mean acetylated opium or poorly extracted morphine...

Is there any way to tell, or is it that you can't acetylate (?) morphine until it has been... uh made into a salt? or something like that?

Do we assume it is probably not cost effective to acetylate pharmaceutical morphine?

And by poorly done, we mean not purified or cleaned or not done right in the first place or both?

[candy]

I have to agree with the Tar here in L.A., being a SoCal native myself, I have had nothing else.
Some is shit and some isn't, but try and find anything else and your wasting precious time.

Black tar has been associated with the flesh eating disease or Necrotising Fascitis(Flesh eating disease) and
MRSA or Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus Aureaus.
It does carry all sorts of non-bacterial pathogens, but these two above have been found in Tar Heroin coming on from Mexico.

All, I know is it has a distinctive smell and just the smell is enough for me to give in....Just pulls
you right back into the same fucked-up place you were when you stopped.

[Duckfeet]

Yep: I gagged and puked and sneezed every fucking *morining* when smelling the tar I was cooking in the spoon...and I've slung a lot of bad dope in my day...and I've never seen *anything* as bad on veins, and surrounding areas, as tar...

And just a reminder to those who get defensive about Mexican dope: remember where all the killer fentanyl came from?...was the *same* fucking area...u don't think mexicans can put 2+2 together?..they know that if u *kill* a few junkies w/bathtub fent, the survivors will be standing line the next day...at one time, up in OH, we had both heroin and fent, and we could tell the difference, as when u get real H, u never forget the gutwarming happiness that spreads thruout the bod...*nothing* else comes close...and tar, to me, never was even in the ballpark, not since I first saw it in Chicago area, up in the early nineties...when it still had to compete w/real heroin, and wasn't "quite" as bad...but Pancho Chemist must have quit giving a shit, since IMO, it's mostly homemade fent, mixed w/flesh destroying goop...so sure, don't ever try real heroin, and if you have any veins left by the age of 25, u might think you have "scored"...but tar is the biggest hustle ever pulled on us long-suffering junkies...


I have to agree with the Tar here in L.A., being a SoCal native myself, I have had nothing else.
Some is shit and some isn't, but try and find anything else and your wasting precious time.

Black tar has been associated with the flesh eating disease or Necrotising Fascitis(Flesh eating disease) and
MRSA or Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus Aureaus.
It does carry all sorts of non-bacterial pathogens, but these two above have been found in Tar Heroin coming on from Mexico.

All, I know is it has a distinctive smell and just the smell is enough for me to give in....Just pulls
you right back into the same fucked-up place you were when you stopped.

[candy]

By the time I stopped using Tar, I was spending all I had
for a shit high and really only staying well.
But, regardless of how bad it is, you keep using.
I think it was the ritual of using that kept me
using. Not the high anymore.
Anyway.......Being on Methadone now is less work!

[SynthMorph]

I've seen you post this way too many times to not finally say something. This is WRONG - please don't spread misinformation. I'm guessing that being from Ontario you've never even had or seen tar. Please don't take this as me being a dick or flaming you, I know it's hard to interpret text online so I just wanted to point it out.

Tar is the way it is because the original extraction of the morphine from the poppies was poorly done.

Actually its true yes I've seen tar from a friend that came back from the west coast gave me a bunch to mess around with once and I've been to Mexico, it's like a black glassy ball, like hardened opium. I have much experience in opium, tar, and the making of heroin. Many steps are skipped in the purification process leaving mainly acetylated opium, like I said there are different versions and the worst versions ARE acetylated opium. Cleaner versions might be poorly extracted morphine base that still has lots of opium in it so its still acetylated opium, clean or not.

[dieselbaby]

The tar I get in Columbus OH is dank as fuck and about as pure as tar can get...obviously not as clean as powder but it's really strong and has made several people OD that I use with who are used to real good NJ #4 powder...I feel like the shit in the midwest is better than tar in the south and west coast for some reason. Columbus has a HUGE tar problem...read about it on google.

[SynthMorph]

The tar I get in Columbus OH is dank as fuck and about as pure as tar can get...obviously not as clean as powder but it's really strong and has made several people OD that I use with who are used to real good NJ #4 powder...I feel like the shit in the midwest is better than tar in the south and west coast for some reason. Columbus has a HUGE tar problem...read about it on google.

I never said it wasn't strong, shit, some tar has levels of heroin as high as 80% and is actually stronger than powder because there is usually much more 6-monoacetylmorphine in it than powder. Like I said some versions start out with high strength opium and are strengthened with morphine before hand or have filtered out much more morphine in the first filtration step leaving levels of heroin on par if not better than powder. From personal experience I like the tar high better but the shit is just so dirty I couldn't commit that atrocity on my body everyday.

[dieselbaby]

I never said it wasn't strong, shit, some tar has levels of heroin as high as 80% and is actually stronger than powder because there is usually much more 6-monoacetylmorphine in it than powder. Like I said some versions start out with high strength opium and are strengthened with morphine before hand or have filtered out much more morphine in the first filtration step leaving levels of heroin on par if not better than powder. From personal experience I like the tar high better but the shit is just so dirty I couldn't commit that atrocity on my body everyday.


It's definitely a catch-22. Where I am currently located I don't really have a choice so it's either be in ridiculous amounts of pain and go through withdrawals or get high with this crap. I think you know which choice most of us would choose. I too prefer the tar high because of the opiate cocktail it contains, the 6-mam and 3-mam are nice and it's a very sedating and long lasting high. I know there is still raw morphine left in the shit sometimes because if I take a huge shot I'll get that pins and needles rush that we all know and love.

I remember there was a thread here about cleaning out tar with baking soda...I'd be willing to try it and post pics if anyone's got any suggestions, just to see how clean my shit really is.

[chopstix]

I remember there was a thread here about cleaning out tar with baking soda...I'd be willing to try it and post pics if anyone's got any suggestions, just to see how clean my shit really is.

Using bicarb is a good way to crash out anything insoluble at a more neutral PH, as most tar is ripe with AA and pretty acidic, but there's no guarantee adulterants will fall out of solution if you raise the PH, sugar is a very common cut and won't fall out of solution if you bump the PH a bit.

All that said, it can be pretty interesting watching what happens if you bring the PH up to a much more comfortable 6-6.5 and your dope is full of shoe polish, donkey poop and coffee..

http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=16445

EDIT: post #1,666 bitches!!

[InfectedMushroom]

Preach on Duckfeet, I never tried it and I don't plan on it. East coast powder just wins flat out

[candy]

Most of the crap I shot got sticky, black and didn't cook up without this sediment.
I guess maybe before it got to me it was shaped like a hard black crystal ball, but I rarely saw it in that form
maybe it is before it got to the connection.

[Duckfeet]

I agree: I just can't see all you NE hardcases putting up w/that shit like we did out here: NE and Canada are last line of defense against the tar takeover of America...Montezuma's Revenge, for sure....

Preach on Duckfeet, I never tried it and I don't plan on it. East coast powder just wins flat out

[Voyager]

"In South Guerrero province, in Mexico...they've got a very well known ex-pharmacy student, who uses an old washtub, and boils down a bunch of poppy leaves into goo...then takes a piss in it "para buena suerte" then throws in last month's backyard fentanyl which his 'suegra' told him "had to go" and stirs it all up, then lets it bake in the sun until it's all sticky...lays it all out on an old tarp, killing the rats that get in it every morning...then when it's *almost* hard, he scrapes it into 1kilo bags and ships it north..."

Muhahahaha ! Duck, you are genious ! :-)

I've never tried black tar heroin nor seen it live in my life.
But here is a part of an article about black tar Heroin from Wikipedia:

Black Tar Heroin is a variety of heroin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin) produced primarily in Mexico (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico), but similar in appearance and texture to so called Home Bake Heroin from New Zealand. It is one of the most prevalent forms of heroin in the western United States, while occasionally found in western Canada and Europe. Mexican heroin has a hashish-like, non-powdery (it however can be made into a brown or dark orange partially powderized and adulterated) consistency, which distinguishes itself from other forms of heroin.

Mexican drug syndicates were producing heroin by the mid-1960s. Lacking the experience in chemistry that other syndicates had gained through years of illicit heroin production, Mexican organizations used less-refined morphine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphine) and also substituted primary chemicals in synthesis (for example, substituting acetic acid (found in vinegar) for acetic anhydride). The opium from which heroin is ultimately produced is a golden brown-to-black, gummy latex containing an average of 10% morphine, although morphine content can vary from 3 to 20 percent of content. Pure morphine and heroin are both fine white and odorless powders. In order to produce heroin, morphine is extracted from raw opium and reacted with non-glacial acetic acid, primarily acetic anhydride for its efficiency. The purity of the final product, and therefore its color and texture, depend on the purity of the source material. Early black tar heroin was notable for its low purity (usually under 30%, at a time when white powdered heroin from the east coast often tested at over 90%), but purity levels have increased dramatically as the producers have gained experience. It should also be noted that the percent of the remainder of black tar heroin is other psychoactive opiate substances, like 6-MAM & morphine, rather than cut or inactive substances. Accordingly, the price per kilogram of black tar heroin has increased from one-tenth that of South American powder heroin in the mid-1990s to between one-half and three-quarters in 2003. It has been steadily on the rise in the following years to nearly converge with the dropping purity of U.S. east coast powder varieties of heroin.

The effects of black tar heroin are identical to those of powder heroin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin). This is because, although less refined than powder forms, black tar makes up for purity in potency through excess alkaloids left in its creation process which affect its course of action. Black tar heroin is found to contain byproducts such as 6-monoacetylmorphine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoacetylmorphine), U.S. DEA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_Enforcement_Administration) microanalysis of seized black tar heroin was shown to contain over 50% and as much as 63 percent 6-MAM.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_tar_heroin#cite_note-2) 6-monoacetylmorphine is more potent by weight, with less of a negative side effect per milligram, than heroin. However black tar heroin is also found to contain 6-acetylcodeine, which is more toxic than heroin and more likely to cause allergic reactions to otherwise opiate tolerant individuals. Additionally, leftover morphine by itself is found in black tar heroin. The combination of heroin, 6-MAM, & morphine and the difference in their onset upon crossing the blood brain barrier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_brain_barrier) can theoretically be a cause of increased duration of peak effects that none of the drugs alone would reach, making black tar heroin an opiate cocktail of sorts. Because of the consistency of black tar heroin, it is usually injected or smoked from strips of tinfoil. It can also be ground into powder or dissolved in water and snorted.

Users who intravenously inject (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intravenous_therapy) black tar heroin are at higher risk of venous sclerosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atherosclerosis) (a condition where the veins narrow and harden, making injection there nearly impossible) than users of powder heroin. Researchers at UC-San Francisco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_California,_San_Francisco) have found that the rapidity with which black tar heroin destroys veins (forcing users to inject subcutaneously (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subcutaneous_injection)), along with its gummier consistency (requiring that needles be thoroughly rinsed between use), may put users at a lower risk of HIV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV) infection.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_tar_heroin#cite_note-ucsf-3)
Black tar heroin is also associated with necrotizing fasciitis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necrotizing_fasciitis) (NF). NF is a severe form of cellulitis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulitis), where infected tissue and muscle rapidly dies and patients can ultimately die of sepsis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepsis) and kidney failure. Necrotizing Fasciitis has a mortality rate of 20% for treated cases and almost 100% for untreated cases. Black tar heroin can be associated with wound botulism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulism) (infection with Clostridium botulinum at the site of heroin injection). This presents as generalized weakness, followed by paralysis of major muscular groups, and finally respiratory paralysis. Botulism is treatable with intravenous type A equine antitoxin and mechanical ventilation.

So, you guys in the USA have the similar story with the Mexicans and Heroin as do we here in Serbia had with Albanians and weed.
Till 4 years ago, on Serbian drug market the strongest Marihuana was the one which came from Albania. It was really fucking fucking !
It was called "Albanka", like "the Albanian girl".
I smoked it a couple of times, and it gives you the real fucking hallucinations, both audial and visual !
Such strong hallucinations I've never had in my life from any drug, not from even LSD !
I really dunno what they did to that Marihuana, but the story in Serbia was that the Albanians have put a lot of poisons and Tramadol in it just to faster poison the Serbian youth they hate so much.
The story how they made that Marihuana was similar to that one which Duck told us about black tar Heroin and Mexicans.
Albanians would spread the raw Marihuana plants just cutted, and while they were hanging, they would light a fire beneath them, and throw in some truck tires in that fire, so that poisonous smoke would rise and go trough all hanging Marihuanas and that way they would dry it.
The next step was to cut it and mix it with Tramadol freebase, while gently heating.
That way it would become even more fucked up.
Then they would wrap it in 1 kilo bags and ship it to Serbia.

But luckily, a couple of years ago, our youth started buying top quality seeds of K2, Orange Bud, White Widow, and some more varieties from Netherlands, and we now have our own top quality weed with more than 25% THC in it, which is grown indoors in the purest possible environment and which is completly clean.
We call it "Holandjanka", like "the Holland girl".
No dealer now wants to buy any more of that Albanian weed anymore, so it dissapeared from our drug market.
So we now basically have two varieties of weed.
1. Casual domestic variety with 10% of THC at most which costs $5 for 5 grams.
2. Super ultra Holland varieties grown indoor with more than 25% THC, and they cost $10 for 1 gram.

And when we're speaking about smack, we here have some of the finest Heroin in the whole Europe, because the main trading route from Afganistan and Asia goes right trough the heart of my country Serbia.
Actually, Heroin here is great only if you live in Belgrade (the capital of Serbia).
If you live in some other smaller cities, the heroin quality and the quantity you'll get varies greatly.
Thus here in my town Vrsac, Heroin is only round 10% purity and 1 gram costs $40.
But when you buy 1 gram here in my town, you'll actually get half a gram, and if you buy half a gram, you'll actually get a quarter of a gram.
In my town you could 3 years ago score some really good dope, because the main boss for Heroin was one man who really liked to play fair.
And he and his "team" basiclly fed all the junkies in town. From them you could buy Heroin, Methadone, Valoron, Subutex, Tramadol and Naloxone. Really professional. Their Heroin was round 50% purity and when you buy 1 gram, you get 1 gram (16 lines).
But 3 years ago he was set up while coming back from Belgrade with the new batch of dope, and he went to jail, and is still there. I was so sorry about him.
During all this time in my town another people came to the top of the dope kingdom, but those are assholes as I can see.
Their dope is shit, and you get only a half of what you've payed for.
But the junkies in my town don't have any other option because those assholes possessed every dealer in the whole town, so wherever you score Heroin, you'll always get their shitty variety.

But while I was living in Belgrade...oh, that was another story.
There I actually learned what true Heroin is and which varieties we have in Serbia.
The strongest variety we have is the Asian variety in the rock form.
I attached two pictures of it, the first one is after I cracked all the rocks with my VISA card, making a fine and very big line. The other one is just how does it look like when you buy it.
It's over 90% purity...very strong stuff.
The cost of that Asian rock form smack is $40 for 1 gram.
The third picture depicts the other variety of Heroin we have here, it's the Afgan variety and it's darker in colour than the Asian rock form smack.
It is in the powder form, but there are tiny small rocks in it which you still have to smash with your VISA card or whatever.
It's round 60% purity.
The cost of that Afgani variety is $25 for 1 gram.

Anyway, that's it.

[Duckfeet]

Excellent post ^^^ on how tar is made...if it's the cartels making it...again, the trouble is "there's no quality control" and anybody w/a smattering of chemistry, and access to poppys can make whatever he likes...and we pay the price...but again, that was an excellent, informative post...thankyou...

[Papa Verine]

I agree: I just can't see all you NE hardcases putting up w/that shit like we did out here: NE and Canada are last line of defense against the tar takeover of America...Montezuma's Revenge, for sure....

There's no fuckin way "TAR" is going to take over in Chicago. I don't know of anybody who has tried it twice around here. I don't know of any spots that sell it. And the Mexicans are not going to take over Chicago's heroin business anytime soon.

[Woody Bear]

Mexican organizations used less-refined morphine and also substituted primary chemicals in synthesis (for example, substituting acetic acid (found in vinegar) for acetic anhydride).
This is wrong, acetic acid is not strong enough to convert morphine into heroin. It might be possible for glacial acetic acid (pure water free acetic acid) to convert morphine into 6-MAM, but acetic acid cannot make heroin. The fact that black tar heroin, does contain heroin, proves that they are using acetic anhydride or another chemical capable of making heroin, and not just using vinegar.

In order to produce heroin, morphine is extracted from raw opium and reacted with non-glacial acetic acid, primarily acetic anhydride for its efficiency.
This is inaccurate, non-glacial acetic acid, is a solution of acetic acid and water. Acetic anhydride and acetic acid are two completely different chemicals. Vinegar is non-glacial acetic acid. Heroin can be made with other chemicals besides acetic anhydride, but the acetic anhydride reaction is the cleanest one and has the highest yields. The main reason that black tar heroin contains so much 6-MAM, is because they aren't fully drying the precursers before they add the acetic anhydride.

Water will break down heroin into 6-MAM, and this is what is happening during the acetic anhydride reaction and afterwards. I've read a Microgram report, where they seized black tar heroin, and scooped some out of the packet, and left the rest in the wrapping. About a year later when they re-analysed it, the black tar out of the packaging contained much more heroin, but the black tar heroin in the packaging contained mostly 6-MAM, this was because water in the black tar heroin was breaking down the heroin, and the packaging sealed any water inside and prevented the black tar heroin from drying out.

The effects of black tar heroin are identical to those of powder heroin. This is because, although less refined than powder forms, black tar makes up for purity in potency through excess alkaloids left in its creation process which affect its course of action.
The effects of black tar heroin are NOT identical to those of powder heroin, because the other alkaloids change the effect. As Duckfeet says, black tar heroin is not euphoric as powder heroin, and Nick says, that pharmaceutical heroin has an amazing euphoric rush, but the high is so clean that you don't notice it.

[Duckfeet]

I believe you...and I do hope that's true...but I have to admit, the first place I started bumping into tar *wasn't* down on the border, but up in Chicago area...well before it had reached anywhere else...and I also know oldtime junkes from South Side of Chicago, who got me tar, and always thought it was "all right..." and then, they could get either one: tar or powder...

So I just hope that I'm wrong and you're right...since once tar gets good and entrenched...it's hard to shake...


There's no fuckin way "TAR" is going to take over in Chicago. I don't know of anybody who has tried it twice around here. I don't know of any spots that sell it. And the Mexicans are not going to take over Chicago's heroin business anytime soon.

[OneHundred80s]

The tar I get starts out like a powder. After I open the balloon and it gets exposed to any moisture, it turns to tar. However, the quality is on par with any powder I've done.

[pdxninja]

Oregon is so lame when it comes to dope after reading this thread it makes me sad that I'm addicted to the greasy sleezy younger brother of heroin.

There is a lot of shit tar around but luckilly I found a place where the quality is the highest, not only me but a lot of people around here have experienced. But it either comes in larger balloons of brown powder that turns glassy when opened or an already glassy goo crystal in a smaller balloon. I guess tho when its powdery tar there is more cut, they just put whatever in it chop it up til its a powder n bag it. Or the same source doles out slightly smaller quantitys of this glassy stuff that is more potent. I've ran into random people (who don't know me at all) try to sucker my into buying the dankest "powder" in portland, when all it is is tar cut so it is dry and crumbly until it starts sucking up moisture again.

I'm glad I'm not buying giant glassy grams of half sugar anymore. I come from a small college town with very few dealers. And I shit you not a gram of heavily cut tar goes for 120 to 140. People who still live there would gladly pay 200 for the stuff I get. Shits fucked up that anyone would charge so much for this industrial run off sludge.

I stick mostly to browning this stuff because every time I shoot I fear abcesses or the fucking up of my veins and no matter how careful I am I bruise like a mother fucker. I went on a needle frenzy when I had a few days off from work recently but my body paid for it by turning black blue and then yellow.

Fuck.

[Woody Bear]

Here's a quote from the DEA's Microgram Bulletin June 2007

- INTELLIGENCE ALERT -
VERY LARGE BLACK TAR HEROIN SEIZURE IN ANAHEIM, CALIFORNIA
The DEA Southwest Laboratory (Vista, California) recently received 8 large packages
containing dark brown materials, suspected black tar heroin. The packages were marked with either a smiling sunshine logo or the word “Mayey,” and were wrapped either in brown tape or cellophane and carbon paper (see Photos 5 and 6). The exhibits were part of a polydrug seizure made by Immigration and Customs Enforcement at a residence in Anaheim; in addition to more packages of the brown powder, about 15 kilograms of marijuana, 1.5 kilograms of dimethylsulfone, and sodium hydroxide were also seized. Analysis of the material (total net mass in the 8 submitted exhibits 31.82 kilograms) by FTIR/ATR, GC/FID, and GC/MSD confirmed heroin (calculated as the hydrochloride) varying from 5.2 - 12.7 percent, with most bricks also containing large amounts of noscapine (not quantitated). This was one of the largest ever seizures of black tar heroin in California history.

The fact that the black tar heroin was between 5.2 - 12.7 percent heroin, and because they found large amounts noscapine (another opium alkaloid), points to this batch being just acetylated opium. Opiums morphine content ranges from 9 -17 percent. Not all black tar heroin is just acetylated opium, as with the better stuff, they actually make an effort to extract the morphine from the opium first. But acetylated opium is what was found in this case.

[sopark4000]

"Mexican drug syndicates were producing heroin by the mid-1950s. Lacking the experience in chemistry that other syndicates had gained through years of illicit heroin production, Mexican organizations used less-refined morphine and also substituted primary chemicals in synthesis (for example, substituting acetic acid (found in vinegar) for acetic anhydride). The opium from which heroin is ultimately produced is a golden brown-to-black, gummy latex containing an average of 10% morphine, although morphine content can vary from 3 to 20 percent of content. Pure morphine and heroin are both fine white and odorless powders. In order to produce heroin, morphine is extracted from raw opium and reacted with non-glacial acetic acid, primarily acetic anhydride for its efficiency. The purity of the final product, and therefore its color and texture, depend on the purity of the source material. Early black tar heroin was notable for its low purity (usually under 30%, at a time when white powdered heroin from the east coast often tested at over 90%), but purity levels have increased dramatically as the producers have gained experience. It should also be noted that the percent of the remainder of black tar heroin is other psychoactive opiate substances, like 6-MAM & morphine, rather than cut or inactive substances."-USDOJ report on South American and Mexican heroin purity levels

One thing not mentioned in this report that I figured some might want to know is that when black tar is being made at the last step when it is being dried out it tends to be an off white to tan substance but when exposed to the open air while drying it quickly turns black

Sorry I just realized that voyager posted some of the same info

[Duckfeet]

Yep...and usually, IMO, in SoCal...the closer to the border, the worse the dope...I know that's an oversimplification, but it's just what I've seen...OC dope is better than SD dope, and LA dope is better than them both...so we suck hind tit down here...really really sad, since it'll still sell like it was pure Burmese white dope...and why should the dealers bother w/real dope, when we'll stand in line to get crap? Same thing happened about 12-15 years ago in OH, when home-made fentanyl started being the main ingredient in "so called" heroin...everybody bitched about it...but we all bought it...there's no supply and demand quality constraints on heroin...it's all demand driven, and we'll buy anything...including goofy-ass tar...


Here's a quote from the DEA's Microgram Bulletin June 2007
The fact that the black tar heroin was between 5.2 - 12.7 percent heroin, and because they found large amounts noscapine (another opium alkaloid), points to this batch being just acetylated opium. Opiums morphine content ranges from 9 -17 percent. Not all black tar heroin is just acetylated opium, as with the better stuff, they actually make an effort to extract the morphine from the opium first. But acetylated opium is what was found in this case.

[twigburst]

I don't understand why there isn't more powder out there. If there is a demand, you would think some asshole would be smart enough to capitalize on it, and soon afterwards others would have to follow his lead to remain in the business. I couldn't imagine anyone in Newark buying tar. If someone tried to sell me that shit I wouldn't deal with them ever again. I'd rather shoot mscontins than tar.

[InfectedMushroom]

Because the biz out west is controlled by the drug lords from Mexico. If Joe shows up in LA selling kick ass powder and stealing all the customers from the Mexican tar dealers, Joe most likely will not be in business for very long...They have such a grip on that half of the country it would require a complete tar boycott in order to see powder make a real appearance, and we all know that aint gonna happen.

[Duckfeet]

That's a good point, I hadn't really thought of that...and yeah the mexican drug honchos are running this side of the boarder now, and all that implies, and the last thing they would be interested was in getting powder out here...


Because the biz out west is controlled by the drug lords from Mexico. If Joe shows up in LA selling kick ass powder and stealing all the customers from the Mexican tar dealers, Joe most likely will not be in business for very long...They have such a grip on that half of the country it would require a complete tar boycott in order to see powder make a real appearance, and we all know that aint gonna happen.

[pdxninja]

Yeah and their drivers don't care how sick you are or how long you and your homie are sketchilly waiting for them in the same god damn spot they want you to wait in every god damned day.

One say my homie and I were pretty fucking bad. I was puking and shitting myself while my homie was puking and convulsing and it still took an hour and a half. And if you offer to drive somewhere closer it still is like twice the eta.

[Duckfeet]

I actually remember the day when the mexicans tried to move their pot up here, too, and nobody wanted that shit...all good dope came from Colombia or Jamaica(w/a couple real small exceptions)...but Mexico wasn't as murderous as they are now...and that--more than anything--is probably why now they can control distribution of such a crappy product as tar...same way blacks took over areas of NE...they were just more willing to kill than the previous suppliers...it's always been that way...and that's why there is such ferocious killling all over the baja Calif area lately...fighting over turf...

Too bad they don't try to at least make real heroin...but again, since we'll buy anything...

Yeah and their drivers don't care how sick you are or how long you and your homie are sketchilly waiting for them in the same god damn spot they want you to wait in every god damned day.
One say my homie and I were pretty fucking bad. I was puking and shitting myself while my homie was puking and convulsing and it still took an hour and a half. And if you offer to drive somewhere closer it still is like twice the eta.

[JayTrizzle]

"Aka "black tar" heroin, such as the type produced in
Mexico and occasionally parts of eastern Europe like Poland. The
raw opium is dissolved in water and filtered to get rid of any
insolubles, and then reacted with acetic anhydride. All alkaloids
and other components of the opium are reacted with the acetic anhydride
along with the morphine, thus several side-products are created
alongside the diacetylmorphine. Looks much like raw opium, but
shiner/harder and with a vineger or pickle-ish odour."

Sounds about the same as every way i've heard. Seems to good to be true, really.

[JayTrizzle]

btw they now sell acetic anhydride on online science fair websites for kids. Anyone else make aspirin in high school?

[Duckfeet]

I've been around heroin since vietnam, 1970-72, where it was about as pure as I've ever seen, and the guys who fixed it, put just a match-head of powder in a spoon, and it broke right down...no filter needed, no cooking, nothing: you could fix it, snort it, or smoke it (the most common form, over there)...and almost 30 years later, I've seen heroin go from really good NY dope, and California cut-to-shit NY dope, to finally the takeover of the Mexican crap, which I first bumped into up in Chicago and Davenport area, almost 20 years ago, then saw it again in Corpus Christi, by then the Mexicans were taking over distribution of coke for Columbians, and I guess they figured why not get some poppys too, and make up some sludge, and sell it up here...it keeps spreading, too......

Every once in the while, in the middle of my tar run, I'd get some Baltimore white dope, and it *immediately* did to me what real heroin always does, just an overwhelming sense of euphoria, accompanied by all aches and pains leaving me, to either nodding out or taking a walk--I preferrred the walk...

I could do enough tar to knock me out, come to on the floor, do as much of a gram as I could get in a rig, and still never got what made me love/hate heroin forever...tar is like the DEA to me: just another burden, standing between me and the real deal...fuck Mexico for doing this...I'd rather have dilaudids any day than this vein destroying misery they call tar......

Tar was the worst excuse for heroin I've seen...and most--not all, but most--people who are familiar w/real heroin, know just what a crappy substitute tar is...Only good thing about it, is, it makes it easier for me to talk myself into going on methadone...and only good thing about *methadone* is that I usually hate it so much, I'll finally get off of it...So far, so good: I'm more tempted by fucking vicodins than I am by all the tar down here...

Tar...fuck...it's like the Harrison Act...I wish the fuckers would go back to tacos and mariachi bands...

[Raz]

Tar...fuck...it's like the Harrison Act...I wish the fuckers would go back to tacos and mariachi bands...

Classic opi....

[losangeleslifer]

Tar...fuck...it's like the Harrison Act...I wish the fuckers would go back to tacos and mariachi bands...

Aw Duck, if I didnt know you better muh feelings might be hurt:(. LOL

[Duckfeet]

That's good: cuz periodically I reread older posts of mine, and I get *my* feelings hurt...if I could just be a *little* more consistent..and about, oh, half of my family are from south of the border *somewhere* mostly mexico, but also nicaragua, guatemala, and argentina...and they generally love me, and all agree that I'm just...not...too...tightly...wrapped...ah, well, whatcha gonna do: me, older but no wiser...

Aw Duck, if I didnt know you better muh feelings might be hurt:(. LOL

[mkultra]

This is a funny post
In South Guerrero province, in Mexico...they've got a very well known ex-pharmacy student, who uses an old washtub, and boils down a bunch of poppy leaves into goo...then takes a piss in it "para buena suerte" then throws in last month's backyard fentanyl which his 'suegra' told him "had to go" and stirs it all up, then lets it bake in the sun until it's all sticky...lays it all out on an old tarp, killing the rats that get in it every morning...then when it's *almost* hard, he scrapes it into 1kilo bags and ships it north... it sounds like something i've shot before.
Laff, it felt like rats spit. i was thinking something along those lines...

[Papa Verine]

Well Duck we've had Mexicans here for many years. Since the 40's there've been Mexican communities in Chicago. But that's just a part of the city and Chicago has always been very segregated. It still is today, very segregated. There are other people who have a much richer History in this city, and they aren't going anywhere. The have there own heroin, connections and Nigerian smugglers. That's why I always say black tar won't take over chicago. Because maybe it will in the Mexican communities, but not the entire city. And I've never met anybody, in my 30 years here, who buys "heroin" from Mexican gangs. Everything else you can think of... but not heroin.

[Duckfeet]

And sometimes I need to remember myself...that what little I *do* know about dope in Chicago, is just from the junky point of view, u know, second hand info, mostly scoring from guys who themselves scored in Chicago, many of them living west of Chi, on the IL/IA border, quad city area...what I was told, and what I figured, from the demographics, and the mexican side of my own family always talking about Chicago, but always from a "worker's" point of view...and I got pretty good heroin up there, but it did seem like tar--and was the first I'd heard of heroin that even looked like that, u know, kind of "gooey" and darker in color...but my memories of it were that it was pretty good heroin, not like the crap we have down here, now...

But I obviously don't know the area like you do...I just know that up in Chicago area was where I first saw tar--and since Chicago did have at that time, one of the largest Mexican populations, I just figured that was what was happening...*countering* that, is that I tend to think of Chicago, as more like NE cities, with oldtime junkies, not so prone to buying this bullshit...but on the other hand, Ohio started out first w/lots of fentanyl cut heroin--and I know Chicago too had that problem--and it was traced--just like Chicago, back to Mexico...and tar seemed to follow behind it in Ohio...but it's just a theory of mine...and based more on my own experience than any real knowledge...and believe me when I say: I *want* to be wrong on this one, and if tar doesn't take over Chicago--or NY and NE...then maybe silly-ass Calif might go back to real heroin...but we obviously have become a bit of an extension of Mexico over here.and have been all too willing to buy crap...

I think the violence of the Mexican gangs does have more influence here: here they run every fucking thing, so that could be why "supply and demand" doesn't really apply: because if some enterprising Burmese/Nigerian/Colombian *did* try to sell product here...he'd get whacked quick...so we'll just wait and see...things could change, but I fear the demographics alone favor the mexicans...they tend to have large families...you oughta *see* the amount of young inlaws I got...they're all good kids tho: only junky I know of in whole family...is me...

But I appreciate any contradiction or clarification of my views...I'm just an "interested observer" and have no real knowledge to speak of...other than the same any other junky has who's bounced around a bit...I'm wrong more than I'm right about most things...All the best, PV...

Well Duck we've had Mexicans here for many years. Since the 40's there've been Mexican communities in Chicago. But that's just a part of the city and Chicago has always been very segregated. It still is today, very segregated. There are other people who have a much richer History in this city, and they aren't going anywhere. The have there own heroin, connections and Nigerian smugglers. That's why I always say black tar won't take over chicago. Because maybe it will in the Mexican communities, but not the entire city. And I've never met anybody, in my 30 years here, who buys "heroin" from Mexican gangs. Everything else you can think of... but not heroin.

[rachamim18]

Forgive me if one or another poster has alreayd offered this information but "How is Tar made?"

Even alot of Forensic Chemists will tell you it is simply "acetylated opium," meaning you take opium, throw GAA on it, and cook. Problem is, that is utter nonsense.

First, look at opium, the precurors. How much morphine is in opium? The average worldwide is about 10% (highest EVER in lab coinditions has been 29%). IF you were merely acetylating opium you could NEVER create a heroin with a purity higher than 10%! As poor as "Tar" is, it can come in the high 80th percentile. In the late 80s it regularly was in the 70th and 80th.

So how is it made? If you look at another boutique form , "Homebaked" you will get a huge hint. To make "regular" heroin you use isolated morphine either in freebase or in salt form, acetylate it usually with acetyl anhydride, IN REFLUX, at a certain temp., for a certain amount if time.

Homebaked, skipping the first parts and moving to the crucial area, is heated with the same GAA (acetic anhydride) WITHOUT REFLUX, for a certain amounf time.


Now, if you look at "Homebake" and you look at "Tar" you will see EXACTLY the same physical product. The content is usually different and not only because fof the precursor differences but THE PHYISICALITY of "Tar" is due to heating ,sans reflux. A reflux apparattus is very simple to make and use. I will not describe it here because it might skirt "sythesis" and seeing how anal retentive some here have become I would not want to "run afoul" (sacracam).

Now, another comonality in "Tar" but not a universailty is a high proportion of the MAMs (3 and 6). This can be present in heroin by one of two ways (generally). If heroin, any heroin is exposed to mositure it goes through a process called "Hydrolysis" which decomposes the heroin into the MAMs , then rapidly into morphine and so on.


You can also get a high porportion of MAM by SELECTIVELY acetylating morphine. Without the complicated back story, you use a weaker GAA like Acetyl Chloride, or any other with time adjusted for each, maintain the lack of reflux, and you will always produce a higher percentage of MAMs. You can do it consistently if you wanted with just a bit of practice but the point with almost all Mexcian cooks is that they just ant to turn a very fast profit, and so they put it to heat until the GAA is no longer dripping, or rather until they have more solid than liquid and voila, vacuum pack it to retain whatever semblance of durability it has, and up it goes to hungry Gringos, et al.

Another thing to examine is the close to 40 alkaloids in opium, and their acetylated forms (most do not react but are effected in one way or another). There ARE times when you will actually see acetylated opium, by VERY ignorant producers and this is the lowest quality "Tar." Reading the "Fingerprinting Analyses" however shows me that acetylated opium is extremely rare (thank G-D).

See, the extraction of morphine from opium is by far the simplest extraction in the world. 4 hours, calcium, ammonium hydroxide, water, and heat...voila! Why skip it? You get garbage and the process is so simple a chimp could habdle it, probably unsupervised (well after a while haha). Ignorance is the culprit. When you read Analyses though showing a higer rate of Mam-6 than diacetyl it shows the route clearly.

Hope it helps.

[twigburst]

How hard would it be to buy a kilo of tar and clean it? Also, how much would you lose. It seems like it would be worth it.

[InfectedMushroom]

Not to go off track but glad to see you are ok , Rach. I loved reading your posts back in the day so it's good you're alright. Thanks for the info

[Duckfeet]

Forgive me if one or another poster has alreayd offered this information but "How is Tar made?"

<snip>

Hope it helps.

Glad to see you again, Rach: I always figure when we don't hear from you, you are off in some jungle in Cambodia, doing the Heart of Darkness thing...

Imagination: it's what I have instead of common sense ;-)

[rachamim18]

Hi again. Naaaah. I just have to make the site a habit again. Heart of Darkness for sure. Mindanao is a wild place man. 9 insurrections now. We were surrounded on 3 sides for a while by the commies but they have pulled back a bit in each of the 3 directions. 105 mm Howitzers waking us up though, and I thought the roosters were bad hahaha.

Philippines is getting ALOT beter though! Finally, since Marcos, finally got damn codeine back on the market, not that it will help me. The big thing I am happy about is Jurnista, the Extended release hydromorphone (Dilaudid), 64 mg tabs man! I cannot wait to work on those matrixes and convert it to instant release. We even got bupe now! Transdermal patches, none of that Sub nonsense. Too bad bupe is also worthless for me (it has a 32 mg. ceiling).

Aside from the war (which seems to follow me, funny as it is), everything is looking a lot briighter!

Duck, did you know this is where they filmed Apocalypse Now? All I need is to load "Gimmee Shelter" onto my MP4 (they have bootleg Sonys here for 16 US!) and I am set! That and my M16 (already got that!).

[rachamim18]

Twigburst: It is very easy to clean Tar. I have done a few threads on it at BL, not to send you to another site but it is a pain to post the same info. Convert it into a nice light tan powder but you have to keep it vacuum packed or its will attract all that moisture again. Tar is some nasty stuff but I am sure noone needs me to say that. As far as loss, well if you mean of target, meaning the diacetylmorphine and not all the other garbage, yeah you will always have loss of product in the best of conditions. Doing a kitchen cleanup will lose a decent amount, it depneds on how much time you have, money to waste, versus concern for your health.

If anything, invest in a few micron/wheel filters, 0.4 should work fine with Tar. Dissolve it in 2 cc of water per 100 mg of materiel, heat to dissolve unfortunately, and then draw it up in the micron, use a 2nd micron to draw from the 1st and you should do a pretty good job of getting the real garbage out. Microns only go in one direction so you cannot push it out of 1 and then use that same 1 to redraw it, you need 2. Of course noone will bother to listen to me on this so why even say it? Because HR is my mantra hahahaha.

[Duckfeet]

Yeah: I actually worry about you over there...not the commies so much as the, u know, muslims and stuff...but u seem pretty savvy, and I was told the same thing when I was living in Nicaragua and Guatemala, and always laughed...L.A. was much more dangerous ;-) But anyway, keep yer head down when it gets crazy...

That ER dilaudids sounds really interesting...Voyager had talked about it...and damn, that area has a *lot* of U.S. Veterans and even a V.A. hospital, and all that...pretty interesting, since I have pension from Vietnam days, and get free medical, all that...and read in my handbook that PI was only country outside u.s. w/va hospital...I wonder if the hospital just provides methadone, like they do here...or is more 'flexible'...I know I told you I was across the way, and got lots of San Miguel beer...and local Vietnamese heroin...and of course, didn't know it would never be that good again...I guess that's *bad* news...but it's probably why I'm alive, too....

...and no, I wasn't sure about Apocalypse Now...I know more about Platoon, which I believe they also made there, and u know, Oliver Stone and all his ways, and I read about that...but I love ApocNow for all kinds of reasons: it really got the feel of the craziness and Rock and Roll insanity of that place...I liked when they got to that bridge, and the guy w/the m79 took out the vc in the wire...w/Jimmy Hendrix blasting...that *felt* like Vietnam to me...nobody seemed to be in charge and just...well...rock and rolll...I always thought the book "Dispatches" really got a good fix on what Vietnam was like, even after we knew we weren't going to win...plus I just liked 'Heart of Darkness' and this a really cool new take on it...

Ah well, glad you're posting again..


Hi again. Naaaah. I just have to make the site a habit again. Heart of Darkness for sure. Mindanao is a wild place man. 9 insurrections now. We were surrounded on 3 sides for a while by the commies but they have pulled back a bit in each of the 3 directions. 105 mm Howitzers waking us up though, and I thought the roosters were bad hahaha.

Philippines is getting ALOT beter though! Finally, since Marcos, finally got damn codeine back on the market, not that it will help me. The big thing I am happy about is Jurnista, the Extended release hydromorphone (Dilaudid), 64 mg tabs man! I cannot wait to work on those matrixes and convert it to instant release. We even got bupe now! Transdermal patches, none of that Sub nonsense. Too bad bupe is also worthless for me (it has a 32 mg. ceiling).

Aside from the war (which seems to follow me, funny as it is), everything is looking a lot briighter!

Duck, did you know this is where they filmed Apocalypse Now? All I need is to load "Gimmee Shelter" onto my MP4 (they have bootleg Sonys here for 16 US!) and I am set! That and my M16 (already got that!).

[chopstix]

but I love ApocNow for all kinds of reasons: it really got the feel of the craziness and Rock and Roll insanity of that place...I liked when they got to that bridge, and the guy w/the m79 took out the vc in the wire...w/Jimmy Hendrix blasting...that *felt* like Vietnam to me...nobody seemed to be in charge and just...well...rock and rolll...

Interesting, I dig that flick too and have wondered about that scene, and the scenes further up the river. Crazy borderline psychedelic chaos, and I'd thought that it was really possible that there really were probably firefights with people tripping balls and not really sure wtf was happening, but anyway, interesting that u can identify with that.. Goes to show how good Stone is..

[chopstix]

Shit, my bad, Apocalypse Now is a FF Coppola flick...

[Mayo]

Hey DF!
You can clean tar uknow.
Its very simple and for just a couple hours work you could have been shooting great powder instead of that shit you despise so much.
DF with the amount of time you've had in the game I'd have thought you'd been cleaning that shit up long ago.

Tar must be viewed as an unfinished product by IV users.
I mean, we all know what H is supposed to look like right, even if you've never seen it in person.


Shit I'd be cleaning my NE powder too, if thats what was around.
I wish it was because I like the starting material to have the lowest donkey-shit ratio possible.

[chopstix]

Not that I speak for duck, but the problem in all that is that u/we don't always have the luxury of buying large pieces at a time. For me, I knew I could run an A/B, but I was sick and anxious and had other shit to do (aka LAZY, and would have had to conceal the lab.)

No real excuses there..

Unfortunately, being a junky tends to drop most people's morals and values after time, and pretty soon shooting acetylated donkey poop doesn't seem so bad, as long as there's *some* dope in it, and you don't lose a limb from some flesh eating, donkey butt bacteria..

Best solution is pharmaceutical diamorph, by prescription, for those that want it..

[rachamim18]

Duckfeet: Well the Muslims are up and about for sure, Abu Sayyaf and MILF but I live in Agusan, and Muslims never fight north of Targum and very rarely even come north of Davao City, almost 200 klicks to my south. My problem IS commies. Front 3 and 20 of the NPA surround me on 3 sides. I just posted an entire litany of attacks from both insurrections on my BL Blog, but for brevity's sake will just say that to my east 1 km. or so over the Surigao del Sur Provincial line the govt is flying OV-10s and MG-520s which we would laugh at in Israel but when a 500 lb GP lands on your stoop it is no longer a laughing matter. They are supposrted by 105 mm Howitzers which have been booming since the 13th.

To my immediate north, about 6 klicks in the next village, our provincial capital Prosperidad where we happen to have most of our livestock, they just uncovered a 20 bunker base but they are making a bit of progress over there with the Amnesty programme they finally got going. However, just to our south, after Agusan Marsh is a newly created province called Compostela Valley, or Comval as it is,known and it is REDHOT, although the govt. DID uncover an IED "factory" out of Claymores and 81mm mortar shells (in Monkayo village) so I am glad they at least make some progress.

NPA took out an entire Special Forces detachment (in Monkayo and simaltaneous engagement in Montevista one village over) and managed to capture its CO, a 2nd LT alive, whom they are now holding for trial for "Crimes Against the People." They also got a 2nd guy a couple of provinces over in an impromptu checkpoint, and of course this is why I now not only travel with my 32, but have resorted to taking my Galil whenever we go on road trips (I am trying to stay off the roads actually but sometimes have to do convoy for our rice trucks, with the Global Recession finally hitting us hard we now have resorted to trading even down into ARMM but of course I cannot go there or it is a given that I will be snatched and with the 100 man detachments the MILF fields it would not be much of a firefight).

The govt. has flooded the bush with soldiers, ever since the middle of November when they began trucking in ten 6 X 6s at a time full of Infantry. November 1st (Day of the Dead/All Souls) is celebrated bigtime here and I almost did not go to the family cemetery which is right on the Prosperidad line, but ended up going in force, as did most.

There are great VA facilities here man, you have no idea but it is all up on Cebu and northward. I am on Mindanao and the US Embassy does not allow active personell to even touch down here, and warns retirees not to come, but then they do that in alot of places, right? Most of the US vets head up to Luzon, where Manila is at, only they go to either Subic (where Clark was, well it is still there but only now it is not a US Base but a Free Trade Port), or more so to Pampanga Province and Angeles City which is the whorehouse capital of SE Asia, go figure (hahaha).

There is no methadone at all here though. It is on the WHO Essentials list though, and since they made me drop my jaw by adding codeine, bupe ptches, and now hydromorphone I would not be at all suprised if they got methadone here. You said, last time we really talked back and forth, that you were on a rather low dosage. If so, use an equigesic chart and see if it equals out to less than 32 mgs of Bupe (the celing dosage). If so, you can just use bupe. Much better than in the US because none of that sublingual crap or added Antagonist. They have it in pure bupe, transdermal patches.

The thing is, it is kind of messed up for the VA System here that they are getting this new substances, especially codeine, because before they were so damn stubborn that when the WHO sued them, for having absolutely no opiates/opioids at all, they adapted the WHO 3 Tier Pallative Pain Treatment Ladder into a 2 Step Model. Essentially this meant that once you were given muscle relaxants and still complained of pain you were entitled to get a Script for at least Deremrol/meperidine/pethidine, etc. They only had that, instant release Oxy (Mundipharma brand), fentanyl (Janssen's export Durogesic, not the Duragesic), and of course my morphine (also had Tramadol OTC and Nabulhpine by Script but was rarely utilised because it happens to be the only , or was the only opiate/opioid of abuse in this country.

Now? codeine I am sure but at least it is 30 mg tabs and no combo APAP nonsense. Still, do like me, find a willing MD and just go straight for the good stuff. There is a 2 tier Script system here. Only about 15% of MDs can even prescribe controlled substances , and they are incredibly anal about prescribing, unless you do the legwork or get very lucky which is not that difficult to do.

Even if you went outside the VA System it is VERY cheap. 3000 mgs or instant release totally water soluble morphine tabs, like the old Knolls as far as booting, cost all of 42 US now. Great little toys, no markings whatsoever, so easy transport, tiny like the Knolls, and instant karma.

I do not drink but San Miguel is water here so you would be right back in the sadlle except no smack. They did have it in the Nam days, even made it here, until Marcos and his Martial Law, live on TV execution of the major kingpin Lim Seng. Africans tend to transship from here but none is hitting the streets. SE Asia at its worst, amphetamine out the yazoo.

Never saw the whole movie of Apocalypse Now, nor ever saw any of Platoon but one day I hope to.

[chopstix]

Don't get too tied into the concept of a "ceiling dose" for bup. Less truly is more, and I suspect it may be harder to jump off 1mg than say 24mg/day.

Odd drug.. I went straight from .5-1mg/day to 15mg of methadone and a fairly rapid detox. Hasn't been too hard overall, but it has definitely been a kick, tho I jacked my tolerance a bit before I started..

[Duckfeet]

That's the real truth of the matter, my friend: I'd think about all kinds of shit, u know, that I'd read on Opy...but mostly I just wanted to fix and be done with it...whether it's laziness, or just full-blown "don't give a shit" junky mode, that's exactly what always happened...I am fascinated by the posts on tar, and cleaning it, and all...but of course, once I got it, I just threw it in the spoon, and most I ever had was a gram or two...and wasn't too thrilled being all strungout again, didn't seem all the exciting anymore...just a pain in the ass....

And of course, I agree on the pharmaceutical diamorphine...and when I was young, could have shot over to England like others did...but I was young, and always thought I'd be out of the game, some day....:(


Not that I speak for duck, but the problem in all that is that u/we don't always have the luxury of buying large pieces at a time. For me, I knew I could run an A/B, but I was sick and anxious and had other shit to do (aka LAZY, and would have had to conceal the lab.)

No real excuses there..

Unfortunately, being a junky tends to drop most people's morals and values after time, and pretty soon shooting acetylated donkey poop doesn't seem so bad, as long as there's *some* dope in it, and you don't lose a limb from some flesh eating, donkey butt bacteria..

Best solution is pharmaceutical diamorph, by prescription, for those that want it..

[rachamim18]

Chopstix: The thing about bupe though is that I have absolutely no subjective knowledge about it. It came along far too late in the game for me. I mean, it was floating around India when I was a youngster but I was already a morphine addict. By the time it became accessible I was already an old hat and the clinical data leaves me out of the ball game. My usual methadone dosage was 220 although on my last 4 month sting it was a mere 160. Like many Middle-Easterners (and that includes Jews everywhere) I am a "Rapid Metaboliser" and so I require that naturally very high dosage.

I understand what you are saying about the psychoactivity (if I am reading you right) not being an issue with the 32 mg celing but there is still that issue of sating my massive addiction. I would love to be bale to use these transdermal patches, I think it would be a vast jump from the sublingual because of the ultra-steady delivery but it is impossible with my level of addiction. I am on only 400 mgs morphine (orally) daily now but even that minimal (for a junkie) dosage is beyond bupe.

I have a ton of Duropgesic but the 75 mic patches are cost prohibitive to me at roughly 20 US a patch, and needing ( not bothering to do the equigesic calculation right now) roughly 6 patches at a time. Even if bupe did not have that ceiling I do not think it would be a functional choice.


That said, if you were able to function on 24 mgs these patches might work, but there is always the cost thing.

Duck: Yeah, you missed the boat man. I was thinking about that American who hopped on a plane sick as a dog, did not know a single person in the country and walked into a London MD and out the door in 30 minutes with a full Script for both dope and coke! those were the days. They still are doing the heroin of course.

Funny thing though. They had a shortage of Rx heroin there you might have heard about. Not that many on it, for either Pallative OR Maintenance but one day the lot of them go to get their Scripts filled and were told , "All Gone" and for like 7 months they had to make do with alternatives. Must have been murder trying to switch back to methadone although the injectable amps are ALOT different than the oral methadone.

UK is another country that does not accept felons unfortunately. My eldest bro-in-law is now waiting for his UK Visa, and I will not ever be able to go visit!

[chopstix]

That said, if you were able to function on 24 mgs these patches might work, but there is always the cost thing.

I've never taken more than 6mg/day, and like you, I have NO problem metabolizing opiates very quickly. My first time on bup, I went from 2G black/day to 6mg sub, and within 2 days was under 4mg and still dropping.

It's really quite a remarkable drug, I'm willing to bet you'll be surprised at how little you really need. Don't think about starting at the highest dose possible, think about starting at 2mg every hour until you feel better..

[rachamim18]

Well that certainly makes me curious. I have not bought the patched yet because they are not on my island yet but will. The other problem though, perhaps just as important, is the pricing here. Anyway, I am sure to get a few boxes to stock up with for unseen emergencies.

[chopstix]

I'd recommend reading up and maybe posting in the bup forum before you try it - the "everything" sticky there covers a lot and there are a ton of posts about it...

It's a weird drug, but I have no doubt a few mg can cover 400mg oral Morphine, if you try it, you'll be surprised, just expect an adjustment period, it's not like jumping from morphine to methadone, you're not gonna feel great for a day or so..

It took me two days to adjust the when I first got on it, now the transition is easier if not painless.. Staying well on only a partial agonist is kinda odd in a few ways, and your body will have to adjust...

There is an effective technique for either rapidly switching over to bup, and avoiding either the waiting-for-sickness point, transitory discomfort or precipitated WD... Ask in the bup forum or search my posts and you'll find the tech, basically you initiate PW with a very small dose and then immediately get well on a full agonist, wait 24hrs and then you should be %90+ on the bup alone..

[rachamim18]

Definitely, my mindset is to wait 36 hours actually. Just take a couple of trips to the nearest real city which is a good 6 hours each way (if I can travel then). They OKd it for import but still none in country yet. It might take along time ot get it fown this far, we are roughly 1000 miles from Manila, although we are the main island in the southern Philippines so when we get it I will surely buy a few boxes.