YIKES, SWIMS A LIL WORRIED

[Boxcar]

SWIM gets 30mg MS ERs and 15mg MS IRs. SWIM boots the ERs all the time. tonight was the 1st time SWIM decided to boot the IR. we all know the wax problem with ERs. after cooking a total of 75mg SWIM didnt seem to notice any wax. these pills are brown in color and are ethex corp brand.

SWIM tied off at the wrist, when HE was drawing up HE noticed it was not clear. the ERS you get clear water after seperating the wax. well the draw was indeed brown. not dark like an H shot but see thru light brown. made SWIM think about puggin it, but HE knew he aint had a movement since monday so prolly wouldnt really take. so SWIM registers and slowly boots. mind you SWIM was tied off VERY VERY tightly, i say that in case whomever ansewers thinks that may have somthing to do with the problem SWIM has right now. SWIM left tie on and did 2 more shots, each light brown in color.

SWIM is kinda freakin... its been about an hour HES had ice on it since. SWIMS hand has doubled in size. and is having trouble moving wrist. HE has never seen anything like this.it looks like a miss, but its just too big. SWIM has missed before, of course, usually just a small area tho. this is HUGE. plus becaus SWIM was tied off so tightly, blood was a gushin, so HE really dont think HE missed.

i know no one here is a doctor, but any thots, advice, experiences somewhat reletive would be great. you know so i can call SWIM and let HIM know what you all think

THANKS,
NOT SWIM

[Duckfeet]

I know but Ive only done these one time, and didn't much like'em...but anyway, my guess is a miss or collapsed vein...which I've seen cause this...and those little hand veins, you can register, and *still* blow them out, or just move slitely, and it's a miss...but the best advice, of course, is that if it *doesn't* get better, or you get to feeling feverish, or anything like that: head down to ER: I know that is the *last* thing you want to do, but I've done it, more that once...but maybe somebody w/more knowledge of this shit will be up, and have some better ideas...

Best wishes...and I'm off to bed, I guess: I seem to get sleepy early, and then wake up at 3 a.m., which sucks...

anyway, hope when I check back in tomorrow, u r feeling better, and swelling has gone down...

[RxQueen]

is there any chance you might have hit an artery? sometimes the color of the blood isn't that different (at least it isn't in me), and since you were tied off the whole time, the arterial blood could've been kept from moving into that hand as fast as normal. (btw, you know that you shouldn't leave the tourniquet on while you're shooting, but first things first!) arterial shots can sometimes cause the type of whole-hand-swelling that you're describing.

maybe candy or poppylvr are still here... they'd have exactly the right advice for you. i'll look around quick, cuz i can never remember if you're supposed to use ice or heat first for this. but the ice sounds good to me, to slow the swelling.


ADDITION: i looked around a little here, and a couple good suggestions are ice, keep the hand elevated, and maybe some benadryl to help if it continues to swell. duck's right... you may have just blown the vein, esp since you kept the tie on and put 3 shots in. either way, keep an eye on it, and if it gets worse or starts to really worry you get it checked out. here's something posted in another thread by blutuesday in athread about an artery hit that swelled a hand (and she's a nurse too):

You should put ice onto the injection site as soon as possible as this limits the area to which the heroin will spread and will help limit swelling and damaging of the tissue. Massage the area as this encourages the flow of toxins out of the tissue. However, don’t continue doing this if it is painful – it should only be done if its comfortable. Keep the area clean and continue massage and ice treatment for 24 hours. Any swelling should have gone down after 24 hours but the area should still be looked at and treated until you feel that its completely normal.

If the swelling doesn’t go down or the area is very red and painful, seek medical attention immediately. Don’t delay as this could cost you a limb. If you are in any doubt – check it out! It cant hurt to have someone look at it, even just to put your mind at rest.

[Boxcar]

is there any chance you might have hit an artery? sometimes the color of the blood isn't that different (at least it isn't in me), and since you were tied off the whole time, the arterial blood could've been kept from moving into that hand as fast as normal. (btw, you know that you shouldn't leave the tourniquet on while you're shooting, but first things first!) arterial shots can sometimes cause the type of whole-hand-swelling that you're describing.

maybe candy or poppylvr are still here... they'd have exactly the right advice for you. i'll look around quick, cuz i can never remember if you're supposed to use ice or heat first for this. but the ice sounds good to me, to slow the swelling.

i dont know of any arteries in the hand. that dont mean shit. but SWIMS hit in the same spot HE did tonight in the past. SWIM left the fuckin thing on because the particular tie HE was using was such a pain in the ass to get tight all alone, and A didnt wanna hafta do it again, B was able to get 2 moree in so quick HE didnt think it was all that bigga deal. ive never hit an artery but the blood wasindeed NOT a different colorthing is the ONLY place that really hurts is where the tie was. also bending wrist down hurts a lil. which really tampers with SWIM gang sign throwing ablities all night on the porch...... shit i dunno, kinda scares me tho. SWIM thot fer sure the IR was going to give him a GREAT fuckin night


is there any chance you might have hit an artery? sometimes the color of the blood isn't that different (at least it isn't in me), and since you were tied off the whole time, the arterial blood could've been kept from moving into that hand as fast as normal. (btw, you know that you shouldn't leave the tourniquet on while you're shooting, but first things first!) arterial shots can sometimes cause the type of whole-hand-swelling that you're describing.

maybe candy or poppylvr are still here... they'd have exactly the right advice for you. i'll look around quick, cuz i can never remember if you're supposed to use ice or heat first for this. but the ice sounds good to me, to slow the swelling.


ADDITION: i looked around a little here, and a couple good suggestions are ice, keep the hand elevated, and maybe some benadryl to help if it continues to swell. duck's right... you may have just blown the vein, esp since you kept the tie on and put 3 shots in. either way, keep an eye on it, and if it gets worse or starts to really worry you get it checked out. here's something posted in another thread by blutuesday in athread about an artery hit that swelled a hand (and she's a nurse too):



a lil update.... i have indeed had ice on it for at least the past hour and a half, as well as 2 benedryl....

.. the swellling has gone down quite significantly. thank you all who advised, please keep advising.

i will not try to IV those again, i mean SWIM wont <<< idiot SWIM is... lol anyway it was a real bummer and disappoinment. the ERs work great i asked dr to gimme IRs cuz i thot it must be better... SWIM was wrong. id really like to hear from anyone who has had any experiencec with ETHEX CORP MScontins. especially the IRs.... the 15mg ERs, ETHEX brand have more wax than i have eve3r seen. i was expecting wax on IRs as well. or am i wrong in assuming such a thing. i didnt think the wax had to do with the IR or ER, just the printing and stuff

[RxQueen]

there's usually an artery real close to just about every vein in the body, typically running just a little deeper than the vein. hell, just a couple weeks ago i think i hit one. went for an easy shot... had to wriggle the point around a bit to draw blood, but i think it went in a bit deeper than i thought. anyway, i'm pretty sure that at least half the hit went into the artery underneath the vein (i stopped and repositioned halfway through the shot, which was the only dumb luck thing that kept the whole hit from going there). anyway, it's not a good thing, but sure not the worst that could happen. it's probably happened to most of us at some point...

it's good to hear that the swelling's going down a bit. things should be better soon... keep the ice going for a while yet and let us know how it's doing.

[SeVeN]

Glad to see you back around buddy. Not so much under these conditions though. First you should untie before injecting. Only tie off so you can register. Then untie. I had an episode similiar to this when I tried to shoot in the foot once. My foot was swollen red and sore. Unfortunatley it was for about 4 or so days.

[underide]

RxQueen is right - there are arteries close to veins on your body no matter where you go, just usually a little deeper

Really should not leave the tourniquet on for those shots, especially with smaller veins, only takes a little bit of pressure and they blow! so that could be a very real possibility

here's a med diagram showing you the arteries around the wrist/hand areas - as you can see there's plenty of sites to hit by mistake if you're not careful enough

hope it's nothing serious though

[ndoftaworld]

...id really like to hear from anyone who has had any experiencec with ETHEX CORP MScontins. especially the IRs.... the 15mg ERs, ETHEX brand have more wax than i have eve3r seen. i was expecting wax on IRs as well....



I think we all know what u meant, but... " ETHEX CORP MScontins. especially the IRs..." that's a contradiction. MSContin is the ER version (Continuously) and IR's are just that MS IR. Don't mean to sound like a dick, just clarifying ;)

Take it easy tommy,

Nd

[Boxcar]

I think we all know what u meant, but... " ETHEX CORP MScontins. especially the IRs..." that's a contradiction. MSContin is the ER version (Continuously) and IR's are just that MS IR. Don't mean to sound like a dick, just clarifying ;)

Take it easy tommy,

Nd

dont get all smart and stuff around me

[Raisin]

I've never had the 15 mg but I've shot plenty of the 30 mgs and they fix fine for me. I kinda liked that the water turns brown because it reminded me of smack. Sounds like you got what we used to refer to as the fathand. I've seen it but never had it happen to me. Probably hit an artery as others have said. It's all part of our fun little game. Hope you're doing better.

[bigNasty]

I've done the brown ethex 15's a few times and never had a problem with them. But i always filtered twice cause those fuckers make alot of powder when you crush them up for only 15mg's, so there must be a shitload of fillers in them. Maybe take some benadryl and see if it goes down

Edit: Oops sorry, i only read the first post of the thread

[candy]

is there any chance you might have hit an artery? sometimes the color of the blood isn't that different (at least it isn't in me), and since you were tied off the whole time, the arterial blood could've been kept from moving into that hand as fast as normal. (btw, you know that you shouldn't leave the tourniquet on while you're shooting, but first things first!) arterial shots can sometimes cause the type of whole-hand-swelling that you're describing.

maybe candy or poppylvr are still here... they'd have exactly the right advice for you. i'll look around quick, cuz i can never remember if you're supposed to use ice or heat first for this. but the ice sounds good to me, to slow the swelling.


ADDITION: i looked around a little here, and a couple good suggestions are ice, keep the hand elevated, and maybe some benadryl to help if it continues to swell. duck's right... you may have just blown the vein, esp since you kept the tie on and put 3 shots in. either way, keep an eye on it, and if it gets worse or starts to really worry you get it checked out. here's something posted in another thread by blutuesday in athread about an artery hit that swelled a hand (and she's a nurse too):



If you hit an artery your plunger would of shot straight to the ceiling or filled fast with bright red frothy blood.
Because the veins and capillaries are so close to the skin in the hand this can happen. Sounds like a missed shot and a reaction from that missed shot. I have had things like this happen to me, but I never shot pills.

Put some hot compresses on it and see if it goes down.
It is really easy to blow veins when you are shooting pills, because of sediments that settle. Remember our veins are semi-permeable, which means fluids and other cells pass through the vein walls. When you blow a vein and miss the shot, the fluid fills in the tissue. When this happens massage the area to help the fluid absorb faster!


RxQueen is right - there are arteries close to veins on your body no matter where you go, just usually a little deeper

Really should not leave the tourniquet on for those shots, especially with smaller veins, only takes a little bit of pressure and they blow! so that could be a very real possibility

here's a med diagram showing you the arteries around the wrist/hand areas - as you can see there's plenty of sites to hit by mistake if you're not careful enough

hope it's nothing serious though

If he hit an artery he would know it immediately and once you do it, you never forget. That syringe will fill with bright red frothy blood and can push the plunger right out of the rig itself. It will pump like your heart beat! I don't think he hit an artery, just missed a shot and now has increased swelling..


SWIM gets 30mg MS ERs and 15mg MS IRs. SWIM boots the ERs all the time. tonight was the 1st time SWIM decided to boot the IR. we all know the wax problem with ERs. after cooking a total of 75mg SWIM didnt seem to notice any wax. these pills are brown in color and are ethex corp brand.

SWIM tied off at the wrist, when HE was drawing up HE noticed it was not clear. the ERS you get clear water after seperating the wax. well the draw was indeed brown. not dark like an H shot but see thru light brown. made SWIM think about puggin it, but HE knew he aint had a movement since monday so prolly wouldnt really take. so SWIM registers and slowly boots. mind you SWIM was tied off VERY VERY tightly, i say that in case whomever ansewers thinks that may have somthing to do with the problem SWIM has right now. SWIM left tie on and did 2 more shots, each light brown in color.

SWIM is kinda freakin... its been about an hour HES had ice on it since. SWIMS hand has doubled in size. and is having trouble moving wrist. HE has never seen anything like this.it looks like a miss, but its just too big. SWIM has missed before, of course, usually just a small area tho. this is HUGE. plus becaus SWIM was tied off so tightly, blood was a gushin, so HE really dont think HE missed.

i know no one here is a doctor, but any thots, advice, experiences somewhat reletive would be great. you know so i can call SWIM and let HIM know what you all think

THANKS,
NOT SWIM

Remember when you are tied off that tight, blood is pooled in the area below the tourniquet, so if you pull out the needle, it is going to gush from the blood that has pooled in the tied off area. Never push in a shot while being tied off.
Try, hot compresses every 2 hours for 15 minutes. Watch for signs of infection.

What is would really like to say if I was doing my regular job right now.....Please stop injecting pills. You are causing a lot of damage and more scar tissue in your lungs and not to mention your veins.
I know it is easier said than done, but I care about ya and don't want to see you losing an arm if that being the worst thing that could ever happen.
Anyway, let's think about stopping this and just taking them orally. What do ya think?

[reddragon3668]

Harm reduction is good for all of us. Its good to know all the pros and cons of doing something B4 we do it. Thanks for doing your job, Candy. ;)


Remember when you are tied off that tight, blood is pooled in the area below the tourniquet, so if you pull out the needle, it is going to gush from the blood that has pooled in the tied off area. Never push in a shot while being tied off.
Try, hot compresses every 2 hours for 15 minutes. Watch for signs of infection.

What is would really like to say if I was doing my regular job right now.....Please stop injecting pills. You are causing a lot of damage and more scar tissue in your lungs and not to mention your veins.
I know it is easier said than done, but I care about ya and don't want to see you losing an arm if that being the worst thing that could ever happen.
Anyway, let's think about stopping this and just taking them orally. What do ya think?

[ndoftaworld]

Harm reduction is good for all of us. Its good to know all the pros and cons of doing something B4 we do it. Thanks for doing your job, Candy. ;)





Ya thanks Candy. I usually don't tie off, but when I do, never knew that u just registered while, and remove the tie b4 plunging. Gonna be kinda difficult w/ one hand (especially w/ the needle hanging in the vein) but I'm glad I know that now!

Nd

[Boxcar]

Remember when you are tied off that tight, blood is pooled in the area below the tourniquet, so if you pull out the needle, it is going to gush from the blood that has pooled in the tied off area. Never push in a shot while being tied off.
Try, hot compresses every 2 hours for 15 minutes. Watch for signs of infection.

What is would really like to say if I was doing my regular job right now.....Please stop injecting pills. You are causing a lot of damage and more scar tissue in your lungs and not to mention your veins.
I know it is easier said than done, but I care about ya and don't want to see you losing an arm if that being the worst thing that could ever happen.
Anyway, let's think about stopping this and just taking them orally. What do ya think?

i think im with ya on it....if i wasnt constipated since monday id be pluggin em. it was a way to conserve. i found shooting i could take my prescribed dose daily, even less. but my arms are all chewed up and i was gonna go to a newPM place close to me instead my current one 40 miles away. now i cant do that cuz they are gonna want my shirt off... if i let everything heal and i am scarred, is there anything to help get rid of scars?

[RxQueen]

Ya thanks Candy. I usually don't tie off, but when I do, never knew that u just registered while, and remove the tie b4 plunging. Gonna be kinda difficult w/ one hand (especially w/ the needle hanging in the vein) but I'm glad I know that now!

Nd

no, it's really pretty easy. just tie off with a small loop of the tie under the part that wraps around your arm, instead of pulling that part the whole way through like you would in the first part of tying a shoelace. i think it's called a slipknot, but i'm not sure... any boy scouts or sailors in the house that know about knots and their names? :p

anyway do it that way, leaving the end of the tie that has the loop toward your face. tighten it up, then hold that end of the tie in your mouth. once you register, all you gotta do is gently pull the end of the tie with your teeth so the slipknot releases, or at the very least so that it loosens significantly. taa-daaa! then you can push the hit in, even when it's a big one (volume-wise) without blowing out the vein.

some folks have solid enough veins to be able to untie while leaving the needle hang there on its own. but those of us with small or tricky or almost used-up veins should learn to tie off this way. it's really easy to do. i just wish i had a picture of the knot i'm trying to describe.... i'm not sure that words are doing the job so that y'all can figure out what i'm describing!

[ndoftaworld]

no, it's really pretty easy. just tie off with a small loop of the tie under the part that wraps around your arm, instead of pulling that part the whole way through like you would in the first part of tying a shoelace. i think it's called a slipknot, but i'm not sure... any boy scouts or sailors in the house that know about knots and their names? :p

anyway do it that way, leaving the end of the tie that has the loop toward your face. tighten it up, then hold that end of the tie in your mouth. once you register, all you gotta do is gently pull the end of the tie with your teeth so the slipknot releases, or at the very least so that it loosens significantly. taa-daaa! then you can push the hit in, even when it's a big one (volume-wise) without blowing out the vein.

some folks have solid enough veins to be able to untie while leaving the needle hang there on its own. but those of us with small or tricky or almost used-up veins should learn to tie off this way. it's really easy to do. i just wish i had a picture of the knot i'm trying to describe.... i'm not sure that words are doing the job so that y'all can figure out what i'm describing!

Hafta try it... I suck @ knots, and I'm using an actual tourniquet, so it's not the most cooperative tool :P

It's nice when my veins stand @ attention, just a quick fist and boom, 5 or 6 PRIME spots to pick. But about 20% of the time, they're invisible... wouldn't even know they're there except for the track marks :(

Practice... let u guys know how it goes. Thx Queen.

Nd

[SurfRat]

Remember when you are tied off that tight, blood is pooled in the area below the tourniquet, so if you pull out the needle, it is going to gush from the blood that has pooled in the tied off area. Never push in a shot while being tied off.
Try, hot compresses every 2 hours for 15 minutes. Watch for signs of infection.

What is would really like to say if I was doing my regular job right now.....Please stop injecting pills. You are causing a lot of damage and more scar tissue in your lungs and not to mention your veins.
I know it is easier said than done, but I care about ya and don't want to see you losing an arm if that being the worst thing that could ever happen.
Anyway, let's think about stopping this and just taking them orally. What do ya think?



Scar tissue in your lungs? How does that work?

[candy]

no, it's really pretty easy. just tie off with a small loop of the tie under the part that wraps around your arm, instead of pulling that part the whole way through like you would in the first part of tying a shoelace. i think it's called a slipknot, but i'm not sure... any boy scouts or sailors in the house that know about knots and their names? :p

anyway do it that way, leaving the end of the tie that has the loop toward your face. tighten it up, then hold that end of the tie in your mouth. once you register, all you gotta do is gently pull the end of the tie with your teeth so the slipknot releases, or at the very least so that it loosens significantly. taa-daaa! then you can push the hit in, even when it's a big one (volume-wise) without blowing out the vein.

some folks have solid enough veins to be able to untie while leaving the needle hang there on its own. but those of us with small or tricky or almost used-up veins should learn to tie off this way. it's really easy to do. i just wish i had a picture of the knot i'm trying to describe.... i'm not sure that words are doing the job so that y'all can figure out what i'm describing!

I always kept one end of the tourniquet in my mouth for an easy pull if I needed both hands!
ABSOLUTELY Do not leave the tourniquet tied while injecting. I am like the needle fairy, I will appear and shake my head back and forth and leave you with a clean, shot that feels the best, sprinkle you with dust of your choice and leave with instructions on how to give the best injection.

[candy]

SurfRat,

To answer the question about scar tissue in the lungs, it is caused by the small particles of crushed pills that get trapped in the small capillaries in the lung tissue.

No matter how hard you try, you are never going to get that pill crushed fine enough to not have some residual and it is that residual that you cannot even see that travels through your blood after you have given yourself an injection.
As blood travels through the lungs and through the veins in the lungs branch off into the very of tiniest capillaries where that residual you cannot see is now trapped.
After a few years scar tissue forms in those areas as they no longer receive blood.
It is really unknown how long it takes scars to form, but I imagine it can't take that long.

I never injected pills or did them IM.
But that is what harm reduction is about...I tell you what can cause you harm.
Anymore questions you have, please shoot them my way.
Be well tonight!

[underide]

If he hit an artery he would know it immediately and once you do it, you never forget. That syringe will fill with bright red frothy blood and can push the plunger right out of the rig itself. It will pump like your heart beat! I don't think he hit an artery, just missed a shot and now has increased swelling..

Not necessarily, Candy. (re: the plunger shooting out of the barrell) all the rest is true, though.
I have no medical education/background, only personal experience of about 7 years of intravenous drug use: heroin and coke - the well known 'vein terminator'.
And i have hit arteries a good number of times during these years and especially lately, and the plunger NEVER shot out of the barrel, in my case at least. I never even felt any difference in pressure behind the pluger, while pushing it. Seems i'm not the only one either, with such experience.

Even the times when i hit my femoral arteries (it's a big one, and very close to the femoral vein) and i'm not trying to preach to the choir here, Candy, since i know you're a nurse/health professional, i just wanted to add a few things from my own personal experience about hitting arteries.

And i hope that Boxcar could take greater care of his veins, and stop shooting with a tie still on. That is a very BAD idea, and i was guilty of such practice myself at the start, and have blown most of my wrist/hand veins in exactly the same manner - i.e leaving the tourniquet on for fear of missing my shot, before i learned from some very experienced people in this area, of just how bad a practice this is, and for some of my good useable veins, it was already too late at that point - they simply collapsed, because i was leaving the tie on. I never do that anymore, in hopes to save the very few useable veins that i have left, and now i mostly have to resort to shoot into the veins in my armpits (usually the right one, since it's considerably larger/more prominent) or sometimes even into my groin - i.e femoral veins - some of the biggest veins in your body, although a rather risky choice of inj. sites, since the femoral artery runs very close to the femoral vein, hence my many unfortunate experiences with hitting arteries - a very bad practice and potentially life-threatening one if you make it an every day practice, and often can even lead to amputation of the leg, after prolonged use, so i try and stay away from there as much as i can)

Believe me, Boxcar (and i'm not trying to come across as some 'know it all prick', which i presume you see me as - it's just that i've been there myself and i'm honestly just trying to pass what i already know from personal experience) - it's just not worth it in the long run to be leaving the tie on for fear of missing your shot. Just remember that you're dealing with very delicate tissues there, and the smaller veins have much thinner lining/walls along with greater pressure behind them as it is)

Nowadays, i mostly use my basilic/axillary veins (armpit veins)
Most people aren't even aware of those (armpit) veins, but lift up your arm and you will be able to see/feel them, and you will need a mirror for those shots.
Also - be careful, as there is an artery pretty close by there too, only it is much deeper and not as easy to miss/hit as the femoral one, so it is a much safer site than the femoral, no doubt about that. And very easy to hit - you don't even need a tie for that vein, just like with the femoral.
And i WOULD NOT advise anyone with useable veins left on their arms/ankles, etc, to use the armpit veins. It's only for those like me - who have lost most of those locations and the armpit is the lesser of two evils, compared to the femoral(groin) vein in terms of harm reduction

Anyway, boxcar - take care, man. I genuinely wish you the best, and hope it was nothing too serious in yiur case - maybe just a missed shot

the basilic/axillary veins are lllustrated in the diagramme below - like i say - most folks are simply not even aware of their existance - but you can see/feel them clearly if you lift up your arm in front of the mirror.
Just once again - be careful with that site - some prominent nerve endings there, and an artery running somewhat deeper underneath it

just in case you have to resort to the basilic veins:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axilla

and:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gray576.png

You're more likey to fel them rather than see them, especially with the left armpit (in my case)
I even shave my armpits from time to time so i can have an easier access to thiose sites

Once again - not recommended for thise who still have good veins left on their arms, wrists, etc.
But once you run out of most of those locations, your 'armpit' veins are the lesser of two evils when compared to your femoral veins

[underide]

double post

sorry, mods/admins

something's fucked up with my net connection again

feel free to delete this post here at your own time/leisure

[antigonemuse]

ive hit an artery myself... and what little you have explained of you experience, does not sound like you actually hit one. cause yes, there is alot of pressure, and the plunger and be moved or pushed out, the blood is foamy, and the pain is surreal.

also, the nurse at my clinic would give you a bit of a reality check... have you ever been in a harm reduction class? if your gonna shot, the inner arm / forearm are you best options. im one of those folks that shot in all the wrong places for many years. did dome nasty nerve damage in my hands. i often lose feeling in my fingers from shooting in my wrists, and using my groin, and knees and feet were the worst ideas i have had (on top of being a waste due to the rate of circulation) the abcesses left me off my feet for a few days.

now.... the real challange, is getting out the hospital with a PIC line....

but serriously, i play roulette when i shoot cause i have to stay tyed,... im extra carful, and very slow.... if i untie, i always loose the vein. sorry candy, there is no way around it.


Not necessarily, Candy. (re: the plunger shooting out of the barrell) all the rest is true, though.
I have no medical education/background, only personal experience of about 7 years of intravenous drug use: heroin and coke - the well known 'vein terminator'.
And i have hit arteries a good number of times during these years and especially lately, and the plunger NEVER shot out of the barrel, in my case at least. I never even felt any difference in pressure behind the pluger, while pushing it. Seems i'm not the only one either, with such experience.

Even the times when i hit my femoral arteries (it's a big one, and very close to the femoral vein) and i'm not trying to preach to the choir here, Candy, since i know you're a nurse/health professional, i just wanted to add a few things from my own personal experience about hitting arteries.

And i hope that Boxcar could take greater care of his veins, and stop shooting with a tie still on. That is a very BAD idea, and i was guilty of such practice myself at the start, and have blown most of my wrist/hand veins in exactly the same manner - i.e leaving the tourniquet on for fear of missing my shot, before i learned from some very experienced people in this area, of just how bad a practice this is, and for some of my good useable veins, it was already too late at that point - they simply collapsed, because i was leaving the tie on. I never do that anymore, in hopes to save the very few useable veins that i have left, and now i mostly have to resort to shoot into the veins in my armpits (usually the right one, since it's considerably larger/more prominent) or sometimes even into my groin - i.e femoral veins - some of the biggest veins in your body, although a rather risky choice of inj. sites, since the femoral artery runs very close to the femoral vein, hence my many unfortunate experiences with hitting arteries - a very bad practice and potentially life-threatening one if you make it an every day practice, and often can even lead to amputation of the leg, after prolonged use, so i try and stay away from there as much as i can)

Believe me, Boxcar (and i'm not trying to come across as some 'know it all prick', which i presume you see me as - it's just that i've been there myself and i'm honestly just trying to pass what i already know from personal experience) - it's just not worth it in the long run to be leaving the tie on for fear of missing your shot. Just remember that you're dealing with very delicate tissues there, and the smaller veins have much thinner lining/walls along with greater pressure behind them as it is)

Nowadays, i mostly use my basilic/axillary veins (armpit veins)
Most people aren't even aware of those (armpit) veins, but lift up your arm and you will be able to see/feel them, and you will need a mirror for those shots.
Also - be careful, as there is an artery pretty close by there too, only it is much deeper and not as easy to miss/hit as the femoral one, so it is a much safer site than the femoral, no doubt about that. And very easy to hit - you don't even need a tie for that vein, just like with the femoral.
And i WOULD NOT advise anyone with useable veins left on their arms/ankles, etc, to use the armpit veins. It's only for those like me - who have lost most of those locations and the armpit is the lesser of two evils, compared to the femoral(groin) vein in terms of harm reduction

Anyway, boxcar - take care, man. I genuinely wish you the best, and hope it was nothing too serious in yiur case - maybe just a missed shot

the basilic/axillary veins are lllustrated in the diagramme below - like i say - most folks are simply not even aware of their existance - but you can see/feel them clearly if you lift up your arm in front of the mirror.
Just once again - be careful with that site - some prominent nerve endings there, and an artery running somewhat deeper underneath it

just in case you have to resort to the basilic veins:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axilla

and:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gray576.png

You're more likey to fel them rather than see them, especially with the left armpit (in my case)
I even shave my armpits from time to time so i can have an easier access to thiose sites

Once again - not recommended for thise who still have good veins left on their arms, wrists, etc.
But once you run out of most of those locations, your 'armpit' veins are the lesser of two evils when compared to your femoral veins

[candy]

Yeah, Underride,

But, it sounds like you were only hitting veins.
I have worked as a nurse and started many arterial lines, some by accident, some not.
If you don't have a handle on what your doing, that tiny syringe( I assume you are using something like an insulin syringe or a bit bigger) is going to fill up fast and yes, I have had plungers come shooting off,not like a rocket, but to make one notice their not in the vein.
Any arterial blood is going to be very bright red, very frothy or foamy, and will pump.

As I said, I have started them professionally and they have to be on a special line that provides continuous hemodynamic pressure. Anyway I am getting all nurse here, but when you hit an artery, it fucking hurts and it will produce bright red frothy blood and fill your syringe fast, very fast. Unless you are using some 60cc syringe, j/k.


Only you know what you did, but I certainly do not want anyone new to injecting to think it is OK. You would not be able to inject into an artery very well. You are going to get tremendous backflow pressure and it is unsafe!

[underide]

ive hit an artery myself...and what little you have expla ined of you experience, does not sound like you actually hit one. cause yes, there is alot of pressure, and the plunger and be moved or pushed out, the blood is foamy, and the pain is surreal.


Actually, the very first time i've hit an artery, i didn't even know what happened
i was with a pal, who was much longer at this 'game' than me, and he did a shot, while i was still prepping
That was probably about 5 years ago, just before i got on methadone
So i prepped my shot, and went straight for the outer elbow-crook site, where there's a vein running almost parallel to that prominent inside of the elbow crook vein
I drew and registered as usual, but as soon as i pushed the plunger (and i would have been doing it rather quick in those days so as not to miss), and as soon as i pushed the plunger i got this very painful jolt, almost like an electric shock up and down my arm. I think i jerked the spike right out of my arm, (it was still probably half full) because of the very sharp pain and as soon as the spike was out, the blood was running/pulsating out of the site like out of a water faucet - never had experienced that before, i didn't know what the hell just happened. I also noticed a quick growing bump at that injection site (a hematoma?)
My pal told me that i just hit an artery, and ever since then i knew what it felt like to hit one
The feeling is unmistakable - a sharp jolt coming up and down the length your limb, but though the pain is very intense does subside rather quickly (at least most of the time, and as long as you don't keep pushing the plunger further)

Since then i knew exactly what it feels like to hit an artery. Once you hit it once, you don't forget.

I know what you're trying to say about the "nurse at your clinic giving me a reality check"
Believe me, i know that it is risky (or riskier - intravenous injections of any kind is inherently risky business no matter where you inject) to shoot into your basillic/axillary veins (armpit veins) and even more so the femoral (groin vein)
And i have had more than my fare share of lectures from the needle exchange staff, when asking for a 23g long blue spikes, which are needed if you intend to shoot into your femoral, you need that big/long and wide gauge, because the femoral is a deep vein, hence the spike has to be long and sturdy so as to reach the vein itself and also not to break off inside.

And that's why i have explained in my previous post that the locations (armpit/groin) are best avoided at all costs if you have access to other locations (elbow-crook, wrists, hands, etc), So i never, even in that previous post of mine advocated using those locations.

The problem is - i have exhausted most of my other usable veins/locations, and i find that having taken certain precautions that your basilic vein is actually a rather safe location (at least by comparison to the groin or ESPECIALLY your jugular veins)

Once again - i'm well aware of the dangers involved, and if you re-read my previous post - i DO NOT actually advise anyone to start shooting into their femoral or even basilic/axillary veins, provided you have other sites to use
I simply have to resort to these locations because i have run out of other ones, due to both, my physiology - i.e having small, puny veins to start with and the fact that i was careless and would run a good vein until it collapses or blows, simply because they were easy to hit



Yeah, Underride,

But, it sounds like you were only hitting veins.


Like i say - unfortunately, my veins were not as good/prominent as some folks to start with, especially on a healthy male's body.
Right from the start i was having trouble with my veins, which were a lot thinner by comparison to most people i have ever shot dope together with.

And it didn't take long for me to lose most of my (useable) veins, and i do mean MOST of them
First it took only about 3-4 years of both heroin and especially coke shots (really hell on veins - coke is, especially since i would usually end up shooting dosens if not more than 20 times a day when on a coke run) to lose my arm veins.
so the first ones to go were the veins inside my elbow crooks - i.e the most obvious/easiest ones for a beginner to start with, and the ones i have simply overused.
I now have just some faint looking lines of scar tissue, though not too bad looking compared to some people's i've seen so far
The veins that were there on my elbows/crooks are long gone, i'm afraid...collapsed, retreated, idk...just not there anymore, basically
Same with my hand and wrist veins. I only have one vein on my right had/side of wrist that i can use sometimes, but a lot of the times i just cannot get that one either.
I also had a few good veins on my feet and ankles, and still have one on my left ankle that i can sometimes use it, but a lot of the times that i use that ankle vein, something very strange happens - the shot seems to be extremely weak for some reason when i shoot there, even when i know that the dope/coke is good quality. I presume i just miss (although it never looks/feels like a miss), but half the time it's alright, although it still does seem to take longer to hit and a tad weaker than if i were to shoot into the femoral, for example

This is what led me to using my femoral veins (on both legs) in the first place - i simply have no other choice anymore
And that's where i experienced most of my artery hits, and i definitely know that they were artery hits due to firstly - that sharp jolt of pain, the rapid expulsion of blood out of the site, upon withdrawal of the spike and the ensuing hematoma, which usually prevents further access to that femoral vein for at least a day or two (sometimes even longer - up to a week)

That's why nowadays i go EXTRA SLOW at pushing the barrel, feeling out for any sign of instant pain, which for me now is a tell tale sign that i have hit an artery
I then immediately withdraw the spike and apply pressure, but no matter how fast i apply pressure, and how long i keep it applied, there usually still a knot-like bump that forms as soon as i withdraw the spike - which is a sign that i have hit an artery

Do you know what they do at my clinic to get the bloods (for methadone levels, etc,) ?
None of the nurses on rthe 'ground floor' could find a vein for the past 3 years or so to take blood from
So we have this very experienced doctor, that most people like me go to Dr. Keating (in the same clinic only on a different floor) - i even heard they reffer to him as 'dracula' since he is very good at taking bloods. Best at it in the whole clinic, apparently.

What he did to take blood from me when none of the nurses could, he simply took my arm, put his finger at about mid/side of the inside of my elbow, and told me to put my finger where his finger is.
He then just sticks the spike very fast into that spot, and not diagonally/parallel to skin, but straight and vertically, and low and behold - the blood just literally shoots up to fill up the tube. He would then keep me in his office for at least 5 minutes holding a gauze/cotton firmly applying pressure at that site

So what he basically did, was tap an artery (i think it was the radial artery - just at the side of your inner elbow crook)
And he managed to do it so fast and efficiently, that he certainly lives up to his nickname in my books.

So basically, what i'm saying is - most of my (visible/useable) veins are gone, and are not coming back, hence i have to resort to (mostly) my basilic/axillary veins and sometimes even the femoral groin vein.
But i really do try to stay away from my femoral, having seen folks without a leg at our clinic and needle exchange centres, no doubt caused by using the femoral and hitting the arteries one timne too many

I am also VERY positive that i know what it feels like to hit an artery, having no doubt hit them a number of times myself, but still, i never had the plunger shoot out on me, and sometimes the blood even looked almost indistinguishable from the vein blood, when i hit an artery
Maybe it's due to the fact that the syringes i use are 2.5 mil ones, and the plunger in those barrels is not as easily pushed out. If you ever used one of those barrels, you would know what i'm talking about - i.e you have to really drag the plunger out with some force for it to come out, unlike your standard diabetic syringes, where the plunger just slides out rather easily.

[candy]

Actually, the very first time i've hit an artery, i didn't even know what happened
i was with a pal, who was much longer at this 'game' than me, and he did a shot, while i was still prepping
That was probably about 5 years ago, just before i got on methadone
So i prepped my shot, and went straight for the outer elbow-crook site, where there's a vein running almost parallel to that prominent inside of the elbow crook vein
I drew and registered as usual, but as soon as i pushed the plunger (and i would have been doing it rather quick in those days so as not to miss), and as soon as i pushed the plunger i got this very painful jolt, almost like an electric shock up and down my arm. I think i jerked the spike right out of my arm, (it was still probably half full) because of the very sharp pain and as soon as the spike was out, the blood was running/pulsating out of the site like out of a water faucet - never had experienced that before, i didn't know what the hell just happened. I also noticed a quick growing bump at that injection site (a hematoma?)
My pal told me that i just hit an artery, and ever since then i knew what it felt like to hit one
The feeling is unmistakable - a sharp jolt coming up and down the length your limb, but though the pain is very intense does subside rather quickly (at least most of the time, and as long as you don't keep pushing the plunger further)

Since then i knew exactly what it feels like to hit an artery. Once you hit it once, you don't forget.

I know what you're trying to say about the "nurse at your clinic giving me a reality check"
Believe me, i know that it is risky (or riskier - intravenous injections of any kind is inherently risky business no matter where you inject) to shoot into your basillic/axillary veins (armpit veins) and even more so the femoral (groin vein)
And i have had more than my fare share of lectures from the needle exchange staff, when asking for a 23g long blue spikes, which are needed if you intend to shoot into your femoral, you need that big/long and wide gauge, because the femoral is a deep vein, hence the spike has to be long and sturdy so as to reach the vein itself and also not to break off inside.

And that's why i have explained in my previous post that the locations (armpit/groin) are best avoided at all costs if you have access to other locations (elbow-crook, wrists, hands, etc), So i never, even in that previous post of mine advocated using those locations.

The problem is - i have exhausted most of my other usable veins/locations, and i find that having taken certain precautions that your basilic vein is actually a rather safe location (at least by comparison to the groin or ESPECIALLY your jugular veins)

Once again - i'm well aware of the dangers involved, and if you re-read my previous post - i DO NOT actually advise anyone to start shooting into their femoral or even basilic/axillary veins, provided you have other sites to use
I simply have to resort to these locations because i have run out of other ones, due to both, my physiology - i.e having small, puny veins to start with and the fact that i was careless and would run a good vein until it collapses or blows, simply because they were easy to hit




Like i say - unfortunately, my veins were not as good/prominent as some folks to start with, especially on a healthy male's body.
Right from the start i was having trouble with my veins, which were a lot thinner by comparison to most people i have ever shot dope together with.

And it didn't take long for me to lose most of my (useable) veins, and i do mean MOST of them
First it took only about 3-4 years of both heroin and especially coke shots (really hell on veins - coke is, especially since i would usually end up shooting dosens if not more than 20 times a day when on a coke run) to lose my arm veins.
so the first ones to go were the veins inside my elbow crooks - i.e the most obvious/easiest ones for a beginner to start with, and the ones i have simply overused.
I now have just some faint looking lines of scar tissue, though not too bad looking compared to some people's i've seen so far
The veins that were there on my elbows/crooks are long gone, i'm afraid...collapsed, retreated, idk...just not there anymore, basically
Same with my hand and wrist veins. I only have one vein on my right had/side of wrist that i can use sometimes, but a lot of the times i just cannot get that one either.
I also had a few good veins on my feet and ankles, and still have one on my left ankle that i can sometimes use it, but a lot of the times that i use that ankle vein, something very strange happens - the shot seems to be extremely weak for some reason when i shoot there, even when i know that the dope/coke is good quality. I presume i just miss (although it never looks/feels like a miss), but half the time it's alright, although it still does seem to take longer to hit and a tad weaker than if i were to shoot into the femoral, for example

This is what led me to using my femoral veins (on both legs) in the first place - i simply have no other choice anymore
And that's where i experienced most of my artery hits, and i definitely know that they were artery hits due to firstly - that sharp jolt of pain, the rapid expulsion of blood out of the site, upon withdrawal of the spike and the ensuing hematoma, which usually prevents further access to that femoral vein for at least a day or two (sometimes even longer - up to a week)

That's why nowadays i go EXTRA SLOW at pushing the barrel, feeling out for any sign of instant pain, which for me now is a tell tale sign that i have hit an artery
I then immediately withdraw the spike and apply pressure, but no matter how fast i apply pressure, and how long i keep it applied, there usually still a knot-like bump that forms as soon as i withdraw the spike - which is a sign that i have hit an artery

Do you know what they do at my clinic to get the bloods (for methadone levels, etc,) ?
None of the nurses on rthe 'ground floor' could find a vein for the past 3 years or so to take blood from
So we have this very experienced doctor, that most people like me go to Dr. Keating (in the same clinic only on a different floor) - i even heard they reffer to him as 'dracula' since he is very good at taking bloods. Best at it in the whole clinic, apparently.

What he did to take blood from me when none of the nurses could, he simply took my arm, put his finger at about mid/side of the inside of my elbow, and told me to put my finger where his finger is.
He then just sticks the spike very fast into that spot, and not diagonally/parallel to skin, but straight and vertically, and low and behold - the blood just literally shoots up to fill up the tube. He would then keep me in his office for at least 5 minutes holding a gauze/cotton firmly applying pressure at that site

So what he basically did, was tap an artery (i think it was the radial artery - just at the side of your inner elbow crook)
And he managed to do it so fast and efficiently, that he certainly lives up to his nickname in my books.

So basically, what i'm saying is - most of my (visible/useable) veins are gone, and are not coming back, hence i have to resort to (mostly) my basilic/axillary veins and sometimes even the femoral groin vein.
But i really do try to stay away from my femoral, having seen folks without a leg at our clinic and needle exchange centres, no doubt caused by using the femoral and hitting the arteries one timne too many

I am also VERY positive that i know what it feels like to hit an artery, having no doubt hit them a number of times myself, but still, i never had the plunger shoot out on me, and sometimes the blood even looked almost indistinguishable from the vein blood, when i hit an artery
Maybe it's due to the fact that the syringes i use are 2.5 mil ones, and the plunger in those barrels is not as easily pushed out. If you ever used one of those barrels, you would know what i'm talking about - i.e you have to really drag the plunger out with some force for it to come out, unlike your standard diabetic syringes, where the plunger just slides out rather easily.



I never got back to your last post......But when you feel that electric jolt you felt, you hit a nerve. Just as you describe in the beginning of your post!
But, I am not going to argue with you over hitting arteries.
I know what I know from my experience as a nurse and as a former IV drug user myself for many years so
I have my experience with injections and you have yours.
I can't tell you your wrong, I wasn't there to see it, but when you feel that painful electric jolt, it is a nerve you just hit. That electric painful stab is a classic sign of hitting a nerve.
All I can do is try to educate and make sure that everyone here stays safe with the information I know.
I would never try to print anything I thought was wrong or I had any doubt about.

Just please understand that it is my responsibility that I gave to Jacky and Billi almost 4 years ago that I would
provide accurate and safe info here at opiophile for our community.
It is nothing personal, I hope you understand that and I hope you continue to stay safe and be well![/quote]

[underide]

I never got back to your last post......But when you feel that electric jolt you felt, you hit a nerve. Just as you describe in the beginning of your post!
But, I am not going to argue with you over hitting arteries.
I know what I know from my experience as a nurse and as a former IV drug user myself for many years so
I have my experience with injections and you have yours.
I can't tell you your wrong, I wasn't there to see it, but when you feel that painful electric jolt, it is a nerve you just hit. That electric painful stab is a classic sign of hitting a nerve.
All I can do is try to educate and make sure that everyone here stays safe with the information I know.
I would never try to print anything I thought was wrong or I had any doubt about.

Just please understand that it is my responsibility that I gave to Jacky and Billi almost 4 years ago that I would
provide accurate and safe info here at opiophile for our community.
It is nothing personal, I hope you understand that and I hope you continue to stay safe and be well![/quote]

Candy, i know that you are a nurse, and that you are much more knowledgeable in terms of general health and physyology, anatomy, etc

But when you say that it was nerves i was hitting i simply cannot agree
Well actually maybe on some occasions i did hit a couple of nerves too, i don't know
But even someone with no or very little background in medicine might be able to differentiate between hitting a nerve and hitting an artery
I'm pretty sure that hitting a nerve doesn't involve expulsion of blood at the rate that it was flowing,

Also, when using the femoral and hitting the femoral artery instead, it would have been very difficult for me to mistake that for a nerve
The jolt of pain i was talking about seems to be 'trademark' artery hit sign - it goes up and down your leg and after you withdraw your spike the blood spurts out at a very fast rate
Also the fact that you get a fast forming swelling at the injection site is a tell-tale sign that an artery wall was penetrated (or so i was told by the nurses in my local needle exchange)
those bumps that you get when hitting the femoral artery, can make it very difficult for any further access to the actual femoral vein for a couple of days until it reduces in size

this is what i've had to deal with about a dozen time on both legs, and as you may know the femoral artery is about a fingers width length away from the femoral vein - that is how i always locate the femoral vein, by feeling the pulse of the femoral artery, and then placing my index finger about 1/3 of an inch away from the pulse, stick the needle at the far side of my finger, register and hope that i hit the vein and most of the time i was successful
Other times, when i go to push the pluger i would get searing pain going up and down my leg, taking out the spike right away (it's hard to believe that some people continue to push the plunger after feeling that, i guess that's how they lose their legs in the end) to see a very rapid expulsion of blood and a fast growing swelling at the site
the very first time it happened to me it was on my arm, actually - and i was with someone quite experienced who told me right away that it looked like i hit an artery

What i'm getting at with this post is that while your points might be a lot more valid than mine, i'm still pretty sure that hitting a nerve would not involve a very rapid growing bump/swelling at the site of the injection, as well as quite a considerable amount of bleeding from the injection site, like it was in my case

Again, i do appreciate the fact that you are a nurse and a lot more educated in health/physiology/anatomy, etc. than me, but sometimes it can be hard to diagnose/judge someonelse's conditions over the internet and sometimes it's also easier to put a diagnosis on someone like me when there is another member also (perhaps quite wrongly) agrees with or states your points ;)

anyway, at this stage i'm trying to stay away from my femoral as much as possible, and lately i've just been sticking to my (oral) methadone (and benzo's - still, ufortunately) so i'm hoping to keep it this way and stay away from injecting gear/coke altogether. At least for now
So far it's been about 2 months now, which is probably the longest i've gone in years without injecting someting.

I also wondered sometimes what would happen to me if i got into a serious accident or something - they will have one hell of a time tring to 'stabilize' me, as honest to god, i have virtually no useable veins left on my body apart from the femoral and the basilic/axilary (armpit veins) and the one on my wrist and another on my ankle which seem to be 'un-useable' most of the time anyway

[candy]

Go back and read a few of your posts.....You describe the experience as just a jolt of pain. Although you also describe blood pumping from your syringe I would say you hit an artery at that point.
Most IV drug users don't generally hit arteries. Because they are deeper and we usually use the Insulin syringes, most cannot find a artery if the knew where they are and they are deeper than veins.

I think what most IV drug users generally experience is a hitting of a vein. That is generally described as a excruciating jolt of pain shooting up and down the arm or leg, depending on where they hit.

If you have been hitting arteries, you are going to eventually scar those and that is not something you want to do.
Using the underarm is OK, I have done it myself. Would I tell that to someone new to using? NO! Only because from a harm reduction point of view, we usually show them only from the antecubital down to the hand veins.
I would not advise anything different here!

You are right that hitting arteries is very dangerous and I have seen a few clients with the loss of an arm and the loss of a leg. You can also develop endocarditis this way as well.
Anytime you hit an artery, You need to use a sterile technique and should be making sure you clean the site well with soap and water and then with alcohol or betadine if you have it. Your hands should be clean as well.

I think sometimes there is just a miscommunication here, but we also need to make sure we are not giving anyone new to injecting the wrong information.

Continue to be careful and be well!