Jumping...I hope [Archive]

Duckfeet

10-30-2008, 11:06 PM

Well, I'm down to 3mg, the last couple days, and poor nurse at clinic feels bad, because the methadone machine just won't hardly spit out that little drop, and she feels she's shortchanging me, and all that...they've all actually been very nice to me in this clinic, even after catching me giving'em a cold piss, in the beginning, as I'd forgotten to warm it up, and the real deal wouild have stopped accrued takehome time...(I was still doing morphine along w/methadone, and would have failed test...

But *anyway* I felt a little twinge today, and was more achey in yoga than usual, but I'm alright w/minor w/drawal symptoms like that, as I always find--with methadone--that if I get a little sick on *this* side of zero, that it isn't so bad on the other...but methadone is tricky, and can fool you, and most of us have found that often when we think we are out of the woods, is right when the real kicking just begins...

So I felt a little crappy, but still hopeful, as I've really staked everything this time, on being successful in my detox: every other time in the last few years, I hedged my bets, made sure I had a stash, some pills, some subs, something, and wasn't really "right" for kicking, if you know what I mean: I was just in full-blown junky mode, to be honest, and when I'm like that, I'm *always* wanting to kick...until I start kicking, then I hate it...

This time was different: I took it fairly slow, went to daily AA meetings, cut all my docs and dope buddys off, and and tried to act right, and start swimming in the ocean again: today I swam around the pier, in the fog, and people were up on the pier waving at me, it was pretty cool: our pier is about the longest one in Cal, I think, and it's some swim, and after the shark attack in Solana Beach, and the other in LaJolla this year, a lot of guys don't like to do it, but I just kept swimming out there--there weren't any waves, or I'da been bodysurfing--and it was so foggy and cool, w/the foghorns and shit, and I thought I saw a pod of dolphins, but it was a ways away, and again, too much fog...grey choppy ocean, and when I got to end of pier I was happy, as I felt something that had been lost to me forever was with me again...

So I came in tired and happy, and I hope tomorrow to go into clinic and *not* dose, and say goodby for last time: it's been a long 2 1/2 years, and the only people that really knew what I was going thru, were all my friends on here...

I'm not going anywhere, regardless of how this goes, but I just wanted to close this post wishing all of you well, no matter where you find yourself on the opiate ladder: using, not using, for pain, for junky reasons...we're all still kind of in the same boat, and I hope we all get a little peace and joy at times, on this weird and inexplainable planet we find ourselves on....

rockbottom

10-30-2008, 11:13 PM

man good luck on the jump---almost home

Raz

10-30-2008, 11:22 PM

Respect bro...

norseman

10-30-2008, 11:32 PM

ZodiacKiller

10-30-2008, 11:42 PM

Good luck, Duck! You deserve it for sure---hope you transition painlessly, friend!

ZK

I-Nod

10-31-2008, 12:10 AM

Wow... you've come a long, long way... great job, Duck!! You've restored my faith in "the taper". Wish you all the best my friend!!

matfield

10-31-2008, 12:18 AM

hey duck......great you've made it so far! you seem to do very well..oh and i dont think that you have to expect anything much worse to come when you finally jump out at all.. just enjoy being independent again!:) best wishes and good luck!

jonny-5

10-31-2008, 12:30 AM

youve got it man, i know you can do it. you really are an inspiration to me.

blutuesday

10-31-2008, 12:45 AM

Duck you're already there man. 3mg of methadone you might aswell be taking snake oil. Much Respect!! I have followed your progress and am really hoping you find some peace.

Sounds like a great place to live Duck. I would love to be able to step out of the house into the ocean. Good stuff. Definitely one of the best natural healers we got on this crazy planet.

Totally disagree. I have tried and failed methadone numerous times and have had many conversations with doctors regarding this. They say that 3mg is just as hard to come off of than 40 or 60, and I totally believe that.

Duckfeet, you have done awesome. I can't even imagine how you are able to leave the house and do yoga and shit while kicking, which is amazing!!!

norseman

10-31-2008, 01:30 AM

Totally disagree. I have tried and failed methadone numerous times and have had many conversations with doctors regarding this. They say that 3mg is just as hard to come off of than 40 or 60, and I totally believe that.

Duckfeet, you have done awesome. I can't even imagine how you are able to leave the house and do yoga and shit while kicking, which is amazing!!!

Well I gotta admit that I actually have no experience with methadone, and I haven't been able to kick no matter what I have tried to use to taper from, be it codiene or done. Before I made my post, I just did the conversion from 3mg of done, to codeine and it works out to roughly 1 T3/day. But I do realize methadone ain't like any other full agonist, so thank you for corecting me Tuesday I do appreciate being informed. To tell you the truth I was just hoping to make things easier for Duckfeet as allot of the times the mind can play as big, if not bigger a roll in these things. Mind over matter, right. Anyways, I just want to say I do got a lot of respect for you too aswell, I followed your thread regarding your detox and was totally amazed at how strong a person you are aswell. So congrats on you're detox as well, and thanks to the both of you for giving me some hope for the future.

oxymoronluvr

10-31-2008, 01:49 AM

good luck man. you are doing this the right way. and not pushing shit like you have done in the past form the story's you tell on here like doing crazy shit like paying all that money for that fancy detox out of state and it ripping u off. take it day by day. u will get there. and don't be afraid to seek help when times are rough. this is all u know this life so nows good as any to change it. Ive been changing daily for the past few years of my life and its spectacular.

for people like us, the figuring out what to do is not the hard part, its the doing it. change for any human is tough as hell, especially when we are used to the little shit nest we built. its warm and cozy and we are used to the smell. so why move on when its working for us. the addict mindset is always in survival mode so anything will due. good luck ill pray for you.

blutuesday

10-31-2008, 02:12 AM

Well I gotta admit that I actually have no experience with methadone, and I haven't been able to kick no matter what I have tried to use to taper from, be it codiene or done. Before I made my post, I just did the conversion from 3mg of done, to codeine and it works out to roughly 1 T3/day. But I do realize methadone ain't like any other full agonist, so thank you for corecting me Tuesday I do appreciate being informed. To tell you the truth I was just hoping to make things easier for Duckfeet as allot of the times the mind can play as big, if not bigger a roll in these things. Mind over matter, right. Anyways, I just want to say I do got a lot of respect for you too aswell, I followed your thread regarding your detox and was totally amazed at how strong a person you are aswell. So congrats on you're detox as well, and thanks to the both of you for giving me some hope for the future.

You are totally right regarding the mind thing! It plays just a big of a part, if not bigger in some cases

20Dollarholla

10-31-2008, 05:00 AM

blutuesday

10-31-2008, 05:43 AM

Good job Duck, especially in the ways of not having a back-up stash for when the taper is complete. Its a whole lot easier to say fuck it and take something "to help us along" than to work through it, then before you know it you have tossed all your work away.

I gotta say though you will feel a whole lot better in a month or two. Even though my detox from the dreaded "done" was a very painful cold-turkey detox (85mg-0mg) in a jail cell I feel liberated from it and am actually glad it happened. Now you can enjoy the rest of what life has to offer without the "ball and chain".

Best of luck.

That totally sucks, I havent had to detox mdone in jail personally but my ex did it and he served a year and a half and says he didnt start feeling better until like the 7th month. Just wondering how long it took you to get your sleep back? (currently on a heroin and methadone kick.) My ex guy was on 160mg at the time and he went thru all that and got out and is back on, at an even higher dose. I guess he doesnt care if he never stops. Too true about the ball and chain. I regret being on methadone almost more than anything in my entire life, and I am fully convinced that shit is EVIL.

jab

10-31-2008, 06:12 AM

You got this brother!! We are all so proud of you and wish all the best.

If ANYONE on this board has convinced me of their mental fortitude to do this; it's you!!

You're in my prayers and thoughts. Be well, and be safe.

Voyager

10-31-2008, 06:16 AM

And all the best from me Duck !
It's really something special that you managed to taper down to such a low dose.
It's now just left for you those 4 weeks of inescapable withdrawals once you get to 0mg of Methadone.
But if you managed to come this far, I'm sure you'll go through that next month with no majour problems.
And you also do yoga and you also have the ocean. That's something really special which a lot of us don't have.
And even if there are some problems, there are always some benzos around, I'd suggest Clonopine (Clonazepam) if you get some hard time. It has a great and very strong anxyolitic and psychostabilizing properties.
But don't take more than 4mg a day of it, cuz it's one of the most euphoric benzodiazepines and you can easily get hooked.
So, if you have some hard time after you drop to 0mg of Methadone, just pop 2mg of Clonopine. That should make you okay. If you are still feeling heavy, take 1mg more. And if still not feeling okay, take 1mg more. That will almost certanly vanish all the heavy feelings.

But looking at your standpoint, I can see that you wanna get trough all of this without any helpers (including benzos), but just in case, if you need anything, Clonazepam would be the best choice.

Anyway, I wish you all the best in your transition from Opiophile to normal man !

20Dollarholla

10-31-2008, 07:02 AM

That totally sucks, I havent had to detox mdone in jail personally but my ex did it and he served a year and a half and says he didnt start feeling better until like the 7th month. Just wondering how long it took you to get your sleep back? (currently on a heroin and methadone kick.) My ex guy was on 160mg at the time and he went thru all that and got out and is back on, at an even higher dose. I guess he doesnt care if he never stops. Too true about the ball and chain. I regret being on methadone almost more than anything in my entire life, and I am fully convinced that shit is EVIL.

It took a few months to get my sleep back, but really as much as it sucked I wouldnt have made it if I hadnt been locked up.

Im telling ya it's great not to have to rely on it any longer, but it is good to know it is there if need ever arises again. Methadone has its place in the world, it kept me from opiate positive U.A's for over two years and probaly saved my life.

The problem I had with it though was I didnt get on it to stop getting high, but to stop getting arrested. I had no intention of getting clean. Then the dose got too high for me to break through so I would resort to just buying up as many takehomes as I could. I was taking so much extra on weekends that when I started to detox my regular dose of 130 wasnt even really holding me so the reduced dose didnt do shit. Ah, the mistakes that we make.......

blutuesday

10-31-2008, 07:19 AM

It took a few months to get my sleep back, but really as much as it sucked I wouldnt have made it if I hadnt been locked up.

Im telling ya it's great not to have to rely on it any longer, but it is good to know it is there if need ever arises again. Methadone has its place in the world, it kept me from opiate positive U.A's for over two years and probaly saved my life.

The problem I had with it though was I didnt get on it to stop getting high, but to stop getting arrested. I had no intention of getting clean. Then the dose got too high for me to break through so I would resort to just buying up as many takehomes as I could. I was taking so much extra on weekends that when I started to detox my regular dose of 130 wasnt even really holding me so the reduced dose didnt do shit. Ah, the mistakes that we make.......

You practically have the same story as my ex guy. My problem is that I never could stop getting high. Never had a clean drop. I was just basically taking the methadone to supplement my dope habit and help stave the sickness off. Like, wake up go get my methadone, comp dope, go to work, comp dope. Rinse and repeat.

I know it works for some, and I am amazed that you got two years of clean drops as everyone I know either uses dope on top of it, or for the ones who actually are on a blocking dose, they end up using benzos/coke or whatnot because they cant get high on dope. So, purpose defeated. Anyway, I was afraid that you were gonna give me that answer re: the sleep. I already knew but I wanted to be in denial. You shoulda lied. JK

Duckfeet

10-31-2008, 07:23 AM

There are so many different views of methadone, both as a pain reliever, or as a opiate maintenance therapy...I know, I've had most of of these attitudes, and seem to have pretty much fallen back on the way we looked at in the old days, when methadone maintenance was new, and free, and was given out in mostly inner cities, or hard heroin areas, where they had incorrigible heroin addicts...it was seen as "end of the line," and most of the people on it, had already been to prison, veins were shot to the point of having to fix in neck, etc, and it was usually older addicts, in their forties...kids to me now haha

Like most addicts of my generation, we would do just about anything to avoid methadone, and I never got on it in my wild days, even tho I was a stone heroin junky, stealing all over Orange County, and always running around the methadone clinic, down in Santa Ana, to cop heroin, or because I was in Orange County Jail, or whatever, but it was considered a terrible substitute for heroin, to us, and we mostly pitied the people on it...

And I've never kicked methadone in jail, but I've seen people going thru forced withdrawals, and I still think heroin is worse, but that methadone lasts longer: and I *have* kicked heroin many times, both in and out of jail, and I know exactly what it's like to be freezing cold with the sweats, and on a top bunk, laying in misery on those thin plastic mattresses, where every noise, every breath, is agony, and still having to get up every 30 minutes or so to use the toilet...and unable to eat, or anything, except lay there, seems endless...

*But*, as I got older, and my veins got worse, and I knew no matter *what* state I was in, that *any* felony would probably send me up for life, and some shrink in a VA hospital in San Antonio where I was trying to kick, told me that methadone maintenance was *made* for people like me...longterm addicts who were just sick of the game, and yet kept going back to it...

And since then I've been on methadone many times, have tried hard to buy into EDS, and accept it as a better alternative to being aging junky, which is no life at all...

Trouble is, I get all the usual problems people talk about on methadone: constipation, lethargy, terrible eating habits, and just a general lack of interest in life, bordering on depression, and worst of all, for me, is that I can't stand cold water, so I couldn't swim anymore in the ocean...which puts me in hell...

Wanted to get on heroin maintenance, as I couldn't stop, flew to Canada, which was nearest--new--experimental heroin maintenanc program....

Couldn't get in to Canada, tho (felony data base for yanks) methadone for me was unhappy, so I had to do what had worked before, which is somehow, some way, get off methadone altogether, which--as most of us know--can be tuff, and often ends in us being "back out there..."

But anyway, I knew that I had to not bullshit myself, and quit pretending, and do a slow taper, and that when I would be ready to jump, I would know it, and would be able to drive down to the clinic, and not "dose first and then quit"...but "not dose at all, and say bye bye" which I did today...So far, so good...thanks again to everybody...

That totally sucks, I havent had to detox mdone in jail personally but my ex did it and he served a year and a half and says he didnt start feeling better until like the 7th month. Just wondering how long it took you to get your sleep back? (currently on a heroin and methadone kick.) My ex guy was on 160mg at the time and he went thru all that and got out and is back on, at an even higher dose. I guess he doesnt care if he never stops. Too true about the ball and chain. I regret being on methadone almost more than anything in my entire life, and I am fully convinced that shit is EVIL.

Duckfeet

10-31-2008, 07:36 AM

Yeah: I'm never sure of anything, and have been around too long to count my chickens...it's "day at a time" for me, in this area, and I don't rule out anything, including benzos... but as long as I'm alright, and can see daylite on the other side, I'll be o.k.

I know this was maybe my final try, so I figured I'd give it my all...I still hope someday to travel to where I can get on heroin maintenance, but my stepfather is dying, and my mother is old, and I've left them too many times before, and just can't do it now...so I gotta stick, and maybe I'll be happy again off opys, we'll see, but I'm really a lifer opiophile, and again yesterday *really* pissed of some guy cuz I was wearing my orange opiophile t-shirt, and he got all pissed off, telling me I shouldn't wear it at meetings, and I told him there was simple solutiion: "don't read it," and that he seemed to have gotten his programs mixed up, as I thought this was an AA meeting...so anyway, I fight with everybody, and most of'em love me enough, so it's all fine...

And all the best from me Duck !
It's really something special that you managed to taper down to such a low dose.
It's now just left for you those 4 weeks of inescapable withdrawals once you get to 0mg of Methadone.
But if you managed to come this far, I'm sure you'll go through that next month with no majour problems.
And you also do yoga and you also have the ocean. That's something really special which a lot of us don't have.
And even if there are some problems, there are always some benzos around, I'd suggest Clonopine (Clonazepam) if you get some hard time. It has a great and very strong anxyolitic and psychostabilizing properties.
But don't take more than 4mg a day of it, cuz it's one of the most euphoric benzodiazepines and you can easily get hooked.
So, if you have some hard time after you drop to 0mg of Methadone, just pop 2mg of Clonopine. That should make you okay. If you are still feeling heavy, take 1mg more. And if still not feeling okay, take 1mg more. That will almost certanly vanish all the heavy feelings.

But looking at your standpoint, I can see that you wanna get trough all of this without any helpers (including benzos), but just in case, if you need anything, Clonazepam would be the best choice.

Anyway, I wish you all the best in your transition from Opiophile to normal man !

Saint

10-31-2008, 08:22 AM

Wow Duck, that is a major achievement. You know how much I want off done and how many times I have been off it but even this last time, being off it for 7 months I found no painrelieve and almost lost my job. And it's tough having to resort to done again when you know that you are strong enough to kick it and aren't even using anymore. But your story gives me hope. Maybe I will give it another try some day, maybe they will find another painmed except done..
I'm really proud of you and hope you'll keep it up. Way to go!

909kick

10-31-2008, 08:36 AM

i have CP and i started using opies for that but i can still feel a junkies pain though being on opies can be rough if u don't practice good caution and hell evn if u do anyway u sound hellbent on getting clean so it will happen soon just give it time

DCBA

10-31-2008, 09:44 AM

Duckfeet

10-31-2008, 10:12 AM

Poppylvr

10-31-2008, 10:21 AM

Thankyou all, I'm alright, same pretty much as I've been since I got down to 10mg daily, which is just slightly achy,but I'm not sure it's kicking, which is o.k....and a little "chill" u know, here and there, which probably is kicking, since I know that chill well...

And I try not to delude myself, even tho it can be second nature to us, and sometimes convincing ourselves "it will get better" is all we have, and not to be discounted, as more than one guy on his execution day had nothing more than his own hand to pat himself on the back with...

But I figured a long time ago, that I was in this for life, tho when I was younger, I tried to "escape it" and thought I had escaped it, in prison, in AA, etc., I know different now...

I really do just try to take it a day at a time, and be of good cheer, and act as if the rest of the world has troubles too, which--to my normal junky brain--can make no sense at all....but there it is, day at a time, all we got, really...
Duckfeet - I just needed to chime in with my support and good vibes, my man.
I have never been on methadone (only suboxone and too many CT's to count), but I have great respect for anyone who can kick it. It sounds purely miserable. It sounds to me like you have done it the right way - slow and steady, with support both in & out of the rooms of AA.
I'm thinking of you - I hope that this next week is easy with minimal to no chills, aches, tummy upsets,goosebumps,yawns and all the other nasty shit of WD's. May you have decent sleep. I'll be sending my good vibes west of here for life to be good.
I admire you.

reddragon3668

10-31-2008, 10:51 AM

Duck, I think this post has and will serve as an inspiration to allot of people. Many of us have been here and watched you struggle along trying to get to where you wanted to be. And, with it within arms reach, I applaud you. I also appreciate you sharing the ride with us as well. Personally, I have mined allot of great stuff from your post and have a allot of respect for you.

One thing I've noticed is how deliberate you are.... going to AA meetings, swimming, yoga... those things have got to take allot of commitment but the pay off must be worth it. Mostly, when I am WD'ing I feel like crap and just don't want to do anything. However, the few times I've forced myself to get up and do this or that, regardless of how I felt, it was profitable.

Good luck on the jump and keep us informed. Sounds like a trip to see Nick is just around the corner! I envy you!

nick

10-31-2008, 11:27 AM

No advice,but much respect and I have all my fingers crossed for you bro.

Consumed.

10-31-2008, 12:00 PM

Congrats DUCK, Ive been with ya all the way. All Ive got to say is, if you want it to work it will work for you. I dont care what anyones opinions are on kicking done or dope. If you ready then your ready. Some people stay "ready" forever some dont. Seems to me at your age and with all your knowledge you know plenty about yourself, your body, drugs, their effects on people in general and your body specifically. I dont think there is any way anybody can give there opinion on your situation. Whatever you want the outcome to be, it will be.

Hoss

10-31-2008, 12:21 PM

All the best, Duckfeet.

Chipper

10-31-2008, 04:50 PM

Well done Duckfeet. Coming off the 'done can be such an anti-climax. The best thing to do now is to stay active to keep your endorphin levels up (this worked for me).

I hope you intend to stay on Opiophile!

Duckfeet

10-31-2008, 07:10 PM

Duckfeet

10-31-2008, 07:18 PM

Thanks NIck, not a day goes by, I don't think of what you went thru, detoxing heroin to come here, and it keeps me motivated: u know as well as I what a lonely struggle it can be, at times...but anyway, thankyou...

No advice,but much respect and I have all my fingers crossed for you bro.

Dan Steely

10-31-2008, 07:50 PM

Cool for you man. I hope the jump is nada but even if it does suck you've come so far it'll be worth a little while of discomfort to have that sense of self satisfaction that comes from self discipline.

Cherry's Jubilee

10-31-2008, 08:33 PM

Yep, I woke up, as usual *way* early, and *knew* today had to be the day to jump...that swim around the pier yesterday motivated me...so I went to clinic, said thankyou, but I'm not dosing, so I have 15 days reprieve, if I want to come running back, and keep take-homes: I'm not crazy, I know the odds...

And this morning I went to Yoga, where I'm a total idiot, but everybody's pretty nice to me, and I'm getting better, and then I logged on here, and then I went to noon AA meeting, and then I went to the beach, and actually skinned it, bodysurfing with my pals, and this too, was first time in a couple years, and yeah, during yoga I felt the occasional "chill", and I kind of had to make myself get in the water, but it was fun, and not bad, and I felt alright when I got out, and in about an hr I'm going to go pick up a couple new guys at the Veterans Rehab here, and take'em to eat a taco...and I'm feeling o.k.

All this was expected: full blown withdrawals I know well, and I wouldn't be doing anything but curl up on my bed, moaning and trying to figure out where to score....but this is fine, just a little nudge once in while from the methadone fairy, reminding me "it ain't over yet, motherfucker," and I know that, but all goes well, day 1 anyway...sunday, big swell coming in, and I got my old duckfeet fins ready :)

Thank you. I'm miserable and depressed as hell on methadone and can't seem to get below 20 mg no matter how hard i try. I haven't smiled all day--it's been one of those why am I such a fuck up days--and I smiled all the way through this thread.

You give me so much hope. I love to think of you doing yoga and bodysurfing and how it must feel to have that first day--clean, freedom. I think any fucking symptom would be worth that feeling of joyous freedom from years of slavery to a chemical.

Thank you, thank you. I'm going to feel that one day too! :) Live it up Duck, you deserve more than anyone I know. Much love and respect.

RxQueen

11-01-2008, 04:59 AM

:party:

congrats, duck! good to hear ya made it 'round the pier (hey, i'm a poet)! i hope it goes as well for you as possible.... btw, a bit OT, but i gotta say, you've been putting lots of great quotes in your sig lately! i don't think i've seen a single bad one yet... are ya doing some catch-up reading lately, or are all these good snippets just starting to come back to you at once? ;)

Voyager

11-01-2008, 06:39 AM

Consumed.

11-01-2008, 07:20 AM

Well we all know how those Serbian waters are here in America!

Duckfeet

11-01-2008, 07:41 AM

Cold water ! Swimming in the lake, ocean !
That's also my problem Duck !!!
Since I got on Methadone, I stopped liking water and swimming !
Man, I used to like to swim and dive and everything during the Summer, but now during these last 2 years on Methadone, I barely visited our local town lake and any similar stuff.
I only got there with my family to get some skin color from the sunlight.
But it's so frustrating, I cannot stand lake or ocean water anymore.
When I come into the lake, I cannot stop shaking and I'm always cold. Firstly I thought "okay, that's how is it in the beginning, I'll warm up", but it only kept getting worse and I simply couldn't move anymore in the water, I was cold-chilling.

Methadone....
G.O.D. give us some more maintenance alternatives !!!

Yep, I never understood why methadone did that to me, the hyper-sensitive to cold water thing, since if is what I usually feel when kicking, and we all understand that...I don't know if it's because I'm just less *active* on methadone, or if it's something metabolic...and I was a commercial diver, and a fairly good one, and still would buy dilaudids and take them offshore with me, and we were walking pipe (pipeline inspections) and I never got any chills, and got out of the water, showered, and shot up my one k4 a day, and called it good...sure wish they would have hydromorhpone maintnenance in this country, as it would work...

:party:

congrats, duck! good to hear ya made it 'round the pier (hey, i'm a poet)! i hope it goes as well for you as possible.... btw, a bit OT, but i gotta say, you've been putting lots of great quotes in your sig lately! i don't think i've seen a single bad one yet... are ya doing some catch-up reading lately, or are all these good snippets just starting to come back to you at once? ;)
I have a lot of books, and just for the heck of it, at night I started finding passages I kind liked, and put them in my sig...at first I didn't even bother putting who the author was, but that seemed kind of stupid, so now I do...but yeah, I love to read, and there were times, when I didn't have much else to give me comfort, that's for sure...today I'm putting in a quote from my all time favorite book, the one I always want to read when it's raining or I have the flu, and I don't want to go anywhere....

Thank you. I'm miserable and depressed as hell on methadone and can't seem to get below 20 mg no matter how hard i try. I haven't smiled all day--it's been one of those why am I such a fuck up days--and I smiled all the way through this thread.

You give me so much hope. I love to think of you doing yoga and bodysurfing and how it must feel to have that first day--clean, freedom. I think any fucking symptom would be worth that feeling of joyous freedom from years of slavery to a chemical.

Thank you, thank you. I'm going to feel that one day too! :) Live it up Duck, you deserve more than anyone I know. Much love and respect.
Do hang in there, CJ, as you know I've been in the same spot, and same doses--between 20-30mg, and always would just despair of ever getting of methadone, and trying so hard to get myself to just "accept it" and try to act normal and be happy...but I wasn't I usually sad, and listless, and wasn't happy, not really...so again, if it does work, fine, I understand people who do *well* on methadone...but if if doesn't, main thing is just to find a farily low, stable dose, get some sort of "program" to help keep one's life in order, and to stay motivated, and then slowly detox, as that is only thing that has ever worked for me...but my heart really does go out to you, as I know exactly just what you are talking about, and so many of my friends on here have been in just that same spot, where methadone is our only real legal solution...and yet it makes us unhappy, and has physical side effects...EDS believers would probably tell you to go up in dose until you find the right dose: I tried that too, but it just got worse, so all that was left to me was to either leave my country in faint hope of getting on heroin maintenance in a less repressive place, or detox altogether...obviously I made the second choice, and other than waking up at 3 in the morning, it's going pretty good...but again, don't loose heart, something will reveal itself to you, I'm sure...

rockbottom

11-01-2008, 11:02 AM

hey CJ i detoxed mrthadone b4 i found opiophile---but i did it slower than Duck i think around 20mgs i was dropping just 1mg a week---u have the main thing needed to quit hatred of methadone--good luck to u;)

HEY Duck is this day 2 4 u-----totally clean? fantastic:)

PEACE ALL

SurfRat

11-01-2008, 11:23 AM

...

All this was expected: full blown withdrawals I know well, and I wouldn't be doing anything but curl up on my bed, moaning and trying to figure out where to score....but this is fine, just a little nudge once in while from the methadone fairy, reminding me "it ain't over yet, motherfucker," and I know that, but all goes well, day 1 anyway...sunday, big swell coming in, and I got my old duckfeet fins ready :)

Yeh, Octobers been alright, I went out Halloween Day, I felt obligated, and it was fun. Then I woke up this morning and couldn't figure out what part of me didn't hurt...

But this afternoon should be ok, I'll go take a look and tomorrow, like you say, got a good forecast.

Saint

11-01-2008, 12:13 PM

Thank you. I'm miserable and depressed as hell on methadone and can't seem to get below 20 mg no matter how hard i try. I haven't smiled all day--it's been one of those why am I such a fuck up days--and I smiled all the way through this thread.

What is it with that damned 20 mg limit?! It's the same here, always. I have relatively little problems tapering from any amount of methadone to say 25 mgs but once I hit the 20 mg zone I start to feel really bad and it seemingly stays that way for ever.
I have tried coming off done so many times and succeeded too but below those 20 mgs things just didn't get better, ever. I always sort of struggled along and continued tapering to zero anyhow but time and time again I gave in after months of being methadone-free because I couldn't stand the pain and misery anymore.

DuckFeet restored my faith though. If I ever try a taper again I will do it real, real slow this time. And I mean slooooow, like 1 mg every week or even every other week. Maybe that's the trick.
Last time I more or less jumped from 20 mgs of done to 200 mgs tramadol and was pretty miserable for months.

Ah well, whatever, maybe nothing works when you're a CP patient but somehow Duckfeets and Rockbottoms post made me think that it just might be possible by taking it slower than slow.
So, thanks for your encouraging posts both and for restoring my hope.
I'm looking forward to some travel stories of you Duckfeet, freedom at last!

Duckfeet

11-01-2008, 01:06 PM

You'all have been so kind to me, and I don't know if I'll make it: I just try to hang in there another day, hope for the best, all that, and remember, that for me, methadone was like living dead: didn't work the way it does for some...and also that I *had* known years off of all opiates and shit, so I couldn't really delude my self that I'd *always* been unhappy when not getting'em...and I really try my best to get into Canada to get on heroin maintenance, but like I posted, they wouldn't let me in, and sent me home.

I know I've staked everything on this one working, which is kind of how I have to do it...and I also hit "walls" on the way down, and between about 20mg and 10mg was sort of the "hard" time, where I couldn't look forward to, any more, that sort of "lift" I'd get an hr after dosing....and I tried slowing down, then, to about 3mg a week drop, and that seemed o.k., and then somewhere around 10mg, I more like "normal happy" which I hadn't felt in years--as opposed to methadone "lift" in the morning...

But I was at the Y today, weight room, and I'm fixing to go down to the beach, and go to a meeting tonight...but I don't talk about none of this at AA: they don't understand, not really, and I feel like NA don't understand, either, most of'em...nope, most of my strength comes from you guys, and I've got a couple young pals in AA who are bupe and methadone who I talk to, and that helps...

But I got chills today, and bit of heavy nostalgia, and that's usually a sign I'm kicking, but I'm still alright with it, and I wouldn't be going to Yoga or swimming if I was really bad, you guys know that, and I guess I kind of pretend sometimes to be happy, hoping eventually it will be real again...

Thanks tho, I'm off to beach...

Voyager

11-02-2008, 06:21 AM

Duckfeet

11-02-2008, 06:59 AM

I always wondered about that, i mean, that makes sense: anybody who thinks methadone *doesn't* change their metabolism, I think, are deluding themselves...but I noticed it *severely*, that the higher I got on methadone, the more I hated water, particularly pacific ocean, which gets pretty damned cold...but it's strange, because it's similar to the "chill" I get when detoxing, and, for me, daily swimming was part of my life, and one of the things I had to give up to get back on methadone, but I knew that, and kind of accepted it, but never much liked it...

And now, day three, which is usually--for me--when mdone detox kind of begins, I feel a bit of chill, and find myself way more ittirtable with people, but all in all, alright....so far...

Well, my doctor thinks that it's because Methadone changes and slows down our metabolism, that's why we cannot get warmed up in water.

Consumed.

11-02-2008, 07:03 AM

@Consumed.

"Well we all know how those Serbian waters are here in America! "

What do you mean by that, I don't get it ? /:-)

@Duck

Well, my doctor thinks that it's because Methadone changes and slows down our metabolism, that's why we cannot get warmed up in water.

It was just a smart alek remark Voyager. I was saying I have no idea what water is like in Serbia and just being a sarcastic one.... No harm meanthttp://forum.opiophile.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

Voyager

11-02-2008, 09:58 AM

Aha, haha.
No problem.

nick

11-02-2008, 12:47 PM

Any sign of the "pink cloud",yet bro?

Duckfeet

11-02-2008, 03:53 PM

No: I'm doing ok, tho Nick, and went walking on the beach, and had a coffee with a pretty girl I know, and saw some girl w/more tattoos than me get a nine month token from her mom...pretty touching, really: mom being like the girl, pretty much a crazy dopefiend...

And I went to Ortegas and got me some huevos a la mexicana, and walking home was happy for a bit, then the chill come over me, like it occaionally does, just so I know it ain't over, but that's cool, still pretty motivated, and went swimming again--we had big waves--and I did my qijong on the beach while my friends laughed then went out in the biggest surf I've been in in a couple years, and never thought about kicking...so it's not bad, so far...

I know we both know that in full blown withdrawals, i wouldn't be saying this shit, and when I get those "moments" when the cold wind blows, I hope it's just methadone's death rattle...but I've been here before, and know it can get weirder, so I just hope for the best...

Thanks for checking on me, bro...

Any sign of the "pink cloud",yet bro?

Cherry's Jubilee

11-02-2008, 04:48 PM

Thanks for your words of encouragement Duck. I'm so proud of you, even if you end up having to go back to 3mg for awhile if it gets bad, you've done so well. I don't believe that shit about 3mg being just as hard to come off of as 40 or 60. That doesn't even make sense. It's like how when you drop from 25 to 20--like Saint was saying--and it's really fucking rough, (I've been half-sick all week since I dropped)--obviously it would be harder dropping from 40 to 20 if you can feel that little 5 mg.

But once you get down to 5 or below...I think it's just a matter of pushing through...I think the symptoms are probably equivalent to someone being on a normal dose of vic or percs for a couple months after surgery or an injury and then coming off, just a little longer for methadone. That's how people do that--because there's such a small amount in there (like 3mg of done, or 8-10 percs a day or whatever) that the process of kicking that little bit off your receptors does produce some symptoms--but nothing like a high dose of oxy or methadone completely clogging them up and then having to clear out.

My transition to 20 from 25 hasn't been fun, but it's bearable--like you said , a little nudge here and there, kind of comes in waves, but it never escalates, and if you just wait it out, it fades. And then I feel a sense of accomplishment, like there goes one more part of kicking I won't have to go through--that was just a little more clearing out. And even with that 5 mg drop, I feel more clear-headed, and more emotional--which is a good thing for me because done makes me kind of numb sometimes.

So I think that's all your looking at Duck--just a little more time of having to push through that last little bit clearing out, enduring the symptoms for a little longer that are nothing more than slight annoyances in the grand scheme--a chill, a restless night, dark thoughts here and there--but nothing stronger than you are and nothing that could possibly come close to outweighing those beautiful real-life moments that you seem to be having more and more of. All you're doing on dope is trying to simulate the rush you get from catching a big wave, or the contentment you get from yoga, or the happiness that comes from spending time with real friends and having real connections--and the truth is, it still doesn't come close...

You're already there! You're on the other side. You've done the hard part, now you just gotta wait it out and shake off the shitty feelings and really immerse yourself in the great ones--and sometimes you have to fake it til you make it, nothing wrong with that. :)

Thanks again for the inspiration and kind words (you too Rock--I didn't know you kicked done too! awesome). I believe in heroin maintenance and I think it's stupid that it's played up like such a "slippery slope" but someone told me something the other day that struck a chord and made me laugh. An older hippie guy I've known for years recently told me he's an ex-junkie when I started talking to him about my problems with methadone. He was supportive about it but really encouraged me to taper off. He said, "For all the good methadone has done for folks like us...for most of us, switching drugs is like switching seats on the Titanic--your ass is still going down." ;)

Duckfeet

11-02-2008, 05:14 PM

You're right, Cherry: it hasn't been that bad: I felt worse trying to kick Norcos a couple years ago, which I had been given by the doc to get off dilaudids, which I had been given when out of my gord after a paragliding concussion 2 1/2 years ago...which began this whole mess, after seven years total sobriety...and happiness...

And I had heard enough horror stories, that the first couple of times I tried detoxing off of methadone this time, I got all scared and thought it would be horrible, I can't do this, etc...must be PAWs!!! ... which I'm so grateful hadn't been invented the first few times I totally kicked methadone: back then we figured a week or two, of chills and a bit of depression, and you were over it...

But this time I just calmly did what you are doing, and you know, there wasn't nobody to pat me on the back, nobody in AA, nothing...but the people on here...and I too would hit points where it would be a bit tuff, for a day, but not *bad* just a little achy, around 20...and I just stopped for a week, and then dropped another 3 mg a week down to 9mg (from 18mg)...and I felt lonely at times, but I just didn't want to go back up...so after 9mg for a week, then 7mg for a week, then 5mg for a week, then 3mg for a couple days,and I'd have dropped on down to zero, but the methadone clinic showed me, and it was just a drop, at 3mg, and I knew it was time to go, and the little teeney chill that hits me *very* rarely, passes, and I'm swimming, and being happy at times...I knew it was over, if it was ever going to be over, and last thursday was my last dose...

The only reason I don't talk a lot about that, is because of all the PAWs warnings and stuff, and I'm human, I don't want to jinx it, and say: "oh, I'm outta the woods, Yay!!!" and then get all sick and clammy and freezing...but I also swore to myself, that I owed it to people on Opy to be honest, come what may, and so far, it's been 'not that big a deal', I walk, I swim, I shower, I go to meetings, and feel, pretty much, the same way I did when I got down to 10mg, which was that maybe, just maybe, I was once again free...and I hadn't felt that way, in a long long time...but I wasn't used to "optimism" and it kind of scared me, so when I kept finding myself feeling "happy" around 10mg, I thought, man, it's going to get horrible, dont' start getting your hopes up...but it hasn't gotten horrible yet, or I wouldn't even be posting, I'd just be sick curled up in a ball, or downtown copping dope, or back at the clinic crying...

Around 20mg is when I think I was beginning to make the transition from "looking forward to the dose every day" to feeling more normal...and I think a lot of that might just be fear, reasonable, but not that bad...

So hang in there, my friend, and don't be rushed *or* discouraged, and you'll be fine....really...

P.S.: and what you said below, has been so so true: first a little weepy, and irritable at myself for *being* weepy, and then slowly getting back to just being glad I'm alive, a feeling I thought was long gone...

Thanks for your words of encouragement Duck. I'm so proud of you, even if you end up having to go back to 3mg for awhile if it gets bad, you've done so well. I don't believe that shit about 3mg being just as hard to come off of as 40 or 60. That doesn't even make sense. It's like how when you drop from 25 to 20--like Saint was saying--and it's really fucking rough, (I've been half-sick all week since I dropped)--obviously it would be harder dropping from 40 to 20 if you can feel that little 5 mg.

But once you get down to 5 or below...I think it's just a matter of pushing through...I think the symptoms are probably equivalent to someone being on a normal dose of vic or percs for a couple months after surgery or an injury and then coming off, just a little longer for methadone. That's how people do that--because there's such a small amount in there (like 3mg of done, or 8-10 percs a day or whatever) that the process of kicking that little bit off your receptors does produce some symptoms--but nothing like a high dose of oxy or methadone completely clogging them up and then having to clear out.

My transition to 20 from 25 hasn't been fun, but it's bearable--like you said , a little nudge here and there, kind of comes in waves, but it never escalates, and if you just wait it out, it fades. And then I feel a sense of accomplishment, like there goes one more part of kicking I won't have to go through--that was just a little more clearing out. And even with that 5 mg drop, I feel more clear-headed, and more emotional--which is a good thing for me because done makes me kind of numb sometimes.

So I think that's all your looking at Duck--just a little more time of having to push through that last little bit clearing out, enduring the symptoms for a little longer that are nothing more than slight annoyances in the grand scheme--a chill, a restless night, dark thoughts here and there--but nothing stronger than you are and nothing that could possibly come close to outweighing those beautiful real-life moments that you seem to be having more and more of. All you're doing on dope is trying to simulate the rush you get from catching a big wave, or the contentment you get from yoga, or the happiness that comes from spending time with real friends and having real connections--and the truth is, it still doesn't come close...

So so true, the above: at first kind of weepy, yeah, and emotional, but slowly but surely getting clear and happy again, IMHO...

You're already there! You're on the other side. You've done the hard part, now you just gotta wait it out and shake off the shitty feelings and really immerse yourself in the great ones--and sometimes you have to fake it til you make it, nothing wrong with that. :)

Thanks again for the inspiration and kind words (you too Rock--I didn't know you kicked done too! awesome). I believe in heroin maintenance and I think it's stupid that it's played up like such a "slippery slope" but someone told me something the other day that struck a chord and made me laugh. An older hippie guy I've known for years recently told me he's an ex-junkie when I started talking to him about my problems with methadone. He was supportive about it but really encouraged me to taper off. He said, "For all the good methadone has done for folks like us...for most of us, switching drugs is like switching seats on the Titanic--your ass is still going down." ;)

nick

11-02-2008, 05:19 PM

Cherry's Jubilee

11-02-2008, 06:23 PM

Miss Jubilee,you sound like a doctor,in that what you say is logical,but in the real world of addiction,logic has little to do with anything.I find the hardest part of a kick is the last part,down to zero.You're right this isn't the worst physically,but it's the hardest psychologically and the mental aspect of wd is the toughest to deal with.
Interestingly the worst drop ,physical pain wise,with 'done tapers tends to come around the 15-25ml mark.

I agree with you 100% that the mental aspect of withdrawal is the toughest to deal with. I was really referring to the intensity of the physical symptoms being less and less the lower you go, not applicable to CP'ers of course. And I think that once you've started to taper down that low, and you've stayed consistent, and you've reached a certain level of determination and desire to succeed, those feelings can really help combat the other feelings that we all know leads you back to using time after time...

I was in no way trying to imply that it's easy or simple or logical by any stretch of the imagination. If it was, I wouldn't be stuck at 20 mg of methadone right now. And I know what Duck is doing is hard and it's a long road, but the way he has persevered and embraced life through all this shit is, to me, mentally the hardest part. Believing that you can do it and you're going to be ok and not being sucked right back down by all those fears is, for most people I know, the biggest psychological obstacle.

Duckfeet

11-02-2008, 08:30 PM

My own take is that methadone is weird...that it can stay in your body quite a while: the first time I dropped down to 50mg, 10mg a week, was fine...until I hit 50mg...and I couldn't get out of bed it was horrible, and I finally drug myself down to the clinic, and went back up to 80mg...

If I've learned *anything* from my methadone detoxes, is that: just because you are starting to feel "normal" doesn't mean the shit isn't still coming out of your body...often, when I do have "jumped" at, like, 5mg, the truth was that I had got down to fivemg *way* to quickly, so when I would say "I jumped at 5mg, and got sick as a dog..." what was really happening was I was jumping with all that methadone in my bod not being replenished, so I'm thrown into the same withdrawals I would have had had I jumped at a much higher dose, that I had gotten to slower...

It was hard to stick to my taper, under 18mg, because I wasn't getting anymore methadone "lift" ...but I'm *so* glad now that I didn't speed it up any, and if would have changed *anything* and I wouldn't, it would be that I might have continued getting 3mg for a while longer, even tho the nurse herself was laughing as the machine just coughed out a drop...

But like Nick says, this stuff ain't totally logical, and methadone is strange, and really gets dug in there, and just can take a bit of time...I was more *afraid* of withdrawals, the older I got: when I was young I would jump off heroin all the time...but again, I was young, and didn't know--then--I was in this for life....now maybe I know too much, sometimes...I always think of that old Bob Seeger verse in Against the Wind: "Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then..."

SynthMorph

11-03-2008, 02:24 AM

Good luck Duck. I've kicked methadone twice now and could never go down slowly like that, don't know how you did it. I had to just jump off, otherwise getting that little bit of done feels like a tease and would get me craving like crazy when night comes around and I can't sleep. First time I kicked was at 40mg CT, second time around 130mg but with the help of some morphine, the last kick was back in April. I promised myself I'd first kick done with the help of some pills here and there then switched to opium and now pods.

It's been 7 months now and a few days ago I was going into a nod and I didn't like the feeling like I was missing out on life or something or didn't like the feeling of being unattentive. Usually I love a good nod, but this time I felt I no longer need to do this and keep missing out on life. I've started reading up on kicking and I know its my mind's way of telling me I should stop. So I'll most likely be in the same boat soon, hope everything works out.

Duckfeet

11-03-2008, 05:33 AM

Yep, so far it's o.k., not too bad, most of the time I forget I'm going thru withdrawals, and just do daily living crap, and we *all* know I wouldn't be doing none of that if I was in "full blown..."

And I have all kinds of opinions, on kicking, how you have to do *something* other than just "get off dope" as when that happens, life kind of sucks, and if we are just sitting around waiting to "get happy" we'll always go back out...

But anyway, if I make it a month, I'll figure I'm as out of the woods as an lifer like me can be, and then I'll post my take on the whole thing, mostly rehash of my detox, and what I believe is fundamental...and if I fail, and say fuck it, I'll post that too, tho I hope that doesn't happen...

DCBA

11-11-2008, 09:40 AM

Keep up the goodwork DF. And choose well what to do with your life now..

starglazer33

11-11-2008, 12:48 PM

Just wanted to say congreatulations and that i certainly appreciate everything you share.

Thank you so much cuz sharing what you are going through seems to really be giving hope to a lot others. Myself included. I have been feeling real bad lately and after reading this i do somehow feel better. Lately its been getting to me.(The whole m.done mess)

You are a strong and insightful individual, Just wish you all the best.

Thanx again.

jonny-5

11-11-2008, 01:00 PM

im glad to read youre doing so well man. just do what you do and it will be over with a quickness.

909kick

11-11-2008, 05:48 PM

hey there duck i just wanted say congratz goin through that whole process is hard i have never tried mthadone but i have to say your posts have really helped me learn about the inner working of the whole clinic and everything thanx for the informative posts

Duckfeet

11-11-2008, 06:04 PM

Again: thankyou all for the good will: this site sustained me like nowhere else, during the worst of this last run, and the kind words and understanding helped me drop on down to zero...now in my second week off methadone, I continue my daily routine: I just got out of the ocean, all chop and crazy waves, came home, and made me a big salad, and doing great...whatever post zero withdrawals I might have expected--or was warned about--haven't come, and I personally believe they aren't coming...

But I know I'm in this for life: I've known that a long long time, so I just take it a day at a time, keep my eye out for pods of dolphins, go to yoga and stretch away, go to noon AA, and at night, if I make it, thank a god I'm not really sure is there, for another day...

DCBA

11-12-2008, 07:31 AM

DF, do you smoke weed? What are your opinions on it nowadays?

Duckfeet

11-12-2008, 08:36 AM

I laughed when I read that: I haven't really smoked weed in about twenty years, just sort of lost interest...actually, I remember when it changed for me, and others, was in Vietnam: pot was everywhere over there: really good, and really cheap, around 30 bucks for a kilo of cambodian red...and that was cheap, even back then...and when we weren't out in the bush--when terror alone was all the buzz we needed or wanted--we smoked all the time...

But after about a year over there, around the end of 1971, heroin got really prevalent, and--at the same time--the army, in it's wisdom, started cracking down on pot, w/dogs and drug busts, and if you were busted, u were sent to a nasty jail called LBJ(also the president's initials) which stood for Long Binh Jail...for a while, then thrown out of army...

And so began what this country called "the heroin epidemic" in Vietnam, since it was everywhere, the dogs couldn't smell it, and it was cheap, and pure, and sold in little 1-2gram vials for 2-5 dollars...and me, and many started smoking heroin, rather than pot, as it was more available, and less detectable...

Then, once we *could* smoke pot again...we all noticed the same thing: the thrill was gone...and pot never again appealed to me the same way....and I've known lots of junkies said same thing...oh, we might smoke it if it's around, but heroin changes something in those receptors I think, and it's never again the same...for me...

Longwinded reply, basically saying I think pot's cool: I probably wouldn't do it, simply because just about *any* drug takes me back to drug of choice...but pot did provide me w/insites I wouldn't have gotten otherwise...plus, taught me the joy of pizza! :)

DF, do you smoke weed? What are your opinions on it nowadays?

Voyager

11-12-2008, 10:23 AM

I would like to tell you a story about the esotherical aspect of the opioid addiction in general, and how very old and very wise civilizations like Egyptian, Greek, etc., interpreted the opioid addiction.
That kinowledge about this topic they had is now scattered trough various ancient manuscripts, Qaballistic teachings, Magickal teachings, but also the majority of that knowledge is permanently lost, but I will tell you what I know, as the Initiate of the Esotherical, Magickal and Masonic order Ordo Templi Orientis.

When you get hooked on any opioid, and stay on it for the extended period of time...
Opioids generally, like Heroin, Morphine, Methadone, Hydromorphone, Oxycodone, Demerol, etc..throws a person in a state so called "the lower astral plane".
You know when you dream and when you fly in your dream, you know how good and euphoric that experience feels ?
That's almost exactly what opioids give to us.
The experience of the lower astral plane is very euphoric.
But there is one major thing.
When you get into the state of the lower astral plane, your consciousness spreads...like, your mind becomes wider.
When the oipoid experience ends, you are back to the normal plane called Malkuth (the first Sephiroth on the Qaballistic Tree of Life which represents the whole universe, and that first step, Malkuth, in Hebrew means "The Kingdom", and that's associated with everything that's earthly, thus Malkuth is the starting plane we all are at when we begin our lives...some of us who practice the various spiritual and Magickal techniques rise above Malkuth, and go to the higher planes of existence like Yeshood, the next Sepiroth, then the next one, and so on...but once your rise to the higher state of existence, you can never fall back down to the lower Sephirots...anyway, the ultimate goal is to come to Kether, the last Sephiroth on the Tree of Life, which means "The Crown" in Hebrew, in the Great White Brotherhood that degree is called Illumination, and when you reach Kether, or Illumination, that means that you became the one with your Holy Guardian Angel and that you are a walking God...that's what the old Hermetic phrase "Deus est Homo" is all about, it's a part of the highest secret of the Great White Brotherhood, Ordo Templi Orientis, and some more esotherical, magickal and masonic orders. A lot of todays most popular religion's prophets were close to Kether...only a few Magicians attained Kether, one of them is Aleister Crowley, but that's another story).

So, to continue.
Opioids in Qaballah correspond to Kether.
As I said, when you take them, they give you the lower astral plane experience, which seems like Kether, but is actually not, it's a fake Kether.
People who really attain Kether start to permanently live in the best euphoric state we ever had on opioids. That's a Divine Feeling.

Now, when you take opioids for the extended period of time, for years, day after day, your mind and soul becomes permanently used to that lower astral plane experience.
Your mind gets permanently wider, more spreaded.
And when you wish to kick the opioids, it's very hard.
The physical crisis is not a big deal, it lasts for a week or two and then it's over.
But the mental crisis is the toughest part, as all of us know here.
Why ?
Because, when you stop taking opioids after an extended period of time, your mind is still very wide and spread and it doesn't come back to normal.
And once you spreaded your consciousness it's not easy, actually it's almost impossible, to make it become narrow and return to the state of Malkuth you were in before you started spreading your mind with opioids.

So, from the esotherical aspect, the main problem in quitting opioids is the mind, which is now, even after you stopped with opioids, much wider and spreaded than it was before you started takin' 'em.
The logical step in this situation would be to press our mind to make it less wide and spread, to make it like it was before.
But think about it...how will you do that ?
How will you make the already very spread and wide mind to compress itself and to become literally "smaller" as it used to be ?
It's very hard to do.
It's like you want to make an 18 year old guy think, behave and rationalize in the same way as he used to do all that when he was 14.

Thus, having your mind now spreaded widely, you have to think about the new activities and experiences which will satisfy and fill your spreaded state of consciousness.
Most people never manage to accomplish that, and their only hope is the opioid maintenance treatment.

Our Duck is now in that situation. Ordinary things of every day life are not enough to satify his spreaded state of mind and consciousness. He is fighting to find a new way of satisfying and filling that gap in his spreaded consciousness which used to be filled every day with the lower astral plane experiences of various opioids, the last being Methadone.

I also hope that he will succeed !

SynthMorph

11-12-2008, 04:34 PM

Opioids generally, like Heroin, Morphine, Methadone, Hydromorphone, Oxycodone, Demerol, etc..throws a person in a state so called "the lower astral plane".

Heh, its funny you say that. The first time I kicked methadone someone asked me what it felt like. I'm sure they were expecting, "great, excellent" or something like that but I said, "it feels like I was living in a higher plane of consciousness and now I'm down here."

Duckfeet

11-12-2008, 06:21 PM

I'm kind of hard nosed, and find this just an "interesting theory" nothing I really believe, or buy into...of course I don't really buy into much of anything, like PAWs and EDS, and 'god' or all kinds of other stuff people live by...

I just knew methadone was the only legal opiate I couldn't abuse of *immediately* so I asked to be put on clinic, shut down all docs I was scamming, and slowly detoxed, and I was pretty content around 10mg and continue to be so at zero...regardless of what 'plane' i'm on...my feet pretty much are on the cold cold ground, best I can tell....I do qijong tho, and all the ditzy pretty girls think I just *must* have some kind of serious spiritual connection..hee hee hee....

I always appreciate your posts, Voyager, and thankyou for your good wishes...

I would like to tell you a story about the esotherical aspect of the opioid addiction in general

<snip snip>

I also hope that he will succeed !

rockbottom

11-12-2008, 09:04 PM

looks like your doing well--without all the negative aftereffects i experienced after i quit done --keep up the good work your an insperation to alot of people--PEACE--Rock

DCBA

11-13-2008, 09:33 AM

I still smoke weed everyday.. Even when in WD (that hasnt happen since MMT). I like a lot, its like a frequency tuner or something like it. It doesnt mess with my life so i can handle it pretty well and im loving smoking while on MMT, specially at night.

I too wanna get down on my MMT, im using 115mg, do you think 5mgs per 3 days is pushing it to much? Sometimes i can handle taking only half my dose for say like days or a week..

Duckfeet

11-13-2008, 06:10 PM

I think that drop should be o.k.... but u know how it is, methadone is *weird* and not really all that logical in how long it stays in yer system...I dropped down from over 100mg daily to 50mg, at 10mg a week, and was fine down to 60mg, and then at 50mg, I got so sick I could hardly get out of bed to dose, and fled to clinic, and jumped back up to 80mg...and calmed down a week or so, and then dropped 10mg a week again, to 50mg, and it was fine...

I had to slow it down after than, and set some ground rules, like not going to fast, and not going back *up*, and shit like that, after 50mg dropping a little less every week, starting at 5mg a week down to 30mg, etc...

But us opiate addicts are always wanting to rush things, and that can be a downfall on methadone...I'm sure you'll sort out how to get where you want...I actually *prefer* the lower doses, since then I "feel" it more, after dosing...but on the other hand, then I'm way sicker in the morning, than at higher doses...a poor boy can't win, I swear :)

I still smoke weed everyday.. Even when in WD (that hasnt happen since MMT). I like a lot, its like a frequency tuner or something like it. It doesnt mess with my life so i can handle it pretty well and im loving smoking while on MMT, specially at night.

I too wanna get down on my MMT, im using 115mg, do you think 5mgs per 3 days is pushing it to much? Sometimes i can handle taking only half my dose for say like days or a week..