The Debate

[RobotJones]

for those who watched, i'm interested to hear what all of you thought about the debate tonight. i have a sneaking suspicion which way most of you lean politically, but i'd like an open-minded discussion about which candidate you prefer and why.

those of you who hate politics or don't bother with it because you know you can't change anything anyway, i'd like to hear your thoughts as well. people often say, "if you don't vote, you don't get to complain", which i think is total bullshit.

[pharmboy]

I don't think it's any secret around here I am ultra-liberal if not

a revolutionist. The way I feel about our government is like a

forest fire, let it burn to the ground and maybe something good

will sprout from the ashes. God knows there is nothing good growing

in the forest now. But as I have said before, I see Obama as the lesser

evil in this race. For me in my position now and with my problems ( chronic

pain, Crohns, depression, etc ) he could be the only choice although I

really wish Ron Paul hadn't been black balled by the media and given a

fair chance, he's the only candidate that really made sense to me.

[poonwhalla]

on the ron paul vote here is a copy and pasted thing about who he is backing

The press conference at the National Press Club had a precise purpose. It was to expose, to as many people as possible, the gross deception of our presidential election process. It is controlled by the powerful elite to make sure that neither candidate of the two major parties will challenge the status quo. There is no real choice between the two major parties and their nominees, only the rhetoric varies. The amazingly long campaign is designed to make sure the real issues are ignored. The quotes I used at the press conference from insider Carroll Quigley and the League of Women voters strongly support this contention.


Calling together candidates from the liberal, conservative, libertarian and progressive constituencies, who are all opposed to this rigged process, was designed to alert the American people to the uselessness of continuing to support a process that a claims that one’s only choice is to choose the lesser of two evils and reject a principle vote that might challenge the status quo as a wasted vote.

In both political education and organization, coalitions are worthwhile and necessary to have an impact. "Talking to the choir" alone achieves little. I have always approached political and economic education with a "missionary" zeal by inviting any group in on issues we agree upon.

This opens the door to legitimate discourse with the hope of winning new converts to the cause of liberty. This strategy led to the press conference with the four candidates agreeing to the four principles we believe are crucial in challenging the political system that has evolved over many years in this country.

This unique press conference, despite the surprising, late complication from the Libertarian Party Presidential Candidate, hopefully will prove to be historically significant.

This does not mean that I expect to get Ralph Nader or Cynthia McKinney to become libertarians, nor do they expect me to change my mind on the issues on which we disagree.
In the meantime, why can’t we be friends, respectful of each other, and fight the corrupt process from which we suffer, and at the same time champion the four issues that we all agree upon which the two major candidates won’t address?
Many practical benefits can come from this unique alliance. Our cause is liberty —freedom is popular and is the banner that brings people together. Since authoritarianism divides, we always have the edge in an intellectual fight. Once it’s realized that the humanitarian goals of peace and prosperity are best achieved with our views, I’m convinced we win by working with others. Those who don’t want to collaborate are insecure with their own beliefs.

In the past two years at the many rallies where I talked and shook hands with literally thousands of people, I frequently asked them what brought them to our campaign. There were many answers: the Constitution, my consistency, views on the Federal Reserve, the war, and civil liberties. The crowds were overwhelmingly made up of young people.

Oftentimes I welcomed the diverse groups that came, mentioning that the crowd was made up of Republicans, Democrats, Independents, Liberals and Progressives with each group applauding. Even jokingly, I recognized the "anarchists" and that, too, was met with some applause. In conversations, many admitted to having been Democrats and members of the Green Party and supporters of Ralph Nader, yet they came to agree with us on all the issues once the entire philosophy was understood. That’s progress.

Principled people are not shy in participating with others and will defend their beliefs on their merits. Liberals and progressives are willing to align themselves with us on the key issues of peace, civil liberties, debt and the Federal Reserve. That’s exciting and very encouraging, and it means we are making progress. The big challenge, however, is taking on the establishment, and the process that is so well entrenched. But we can’t beat the entrenched elite without the alliance of all those who have been disenfranchised.

Ironically the most difficult group to recruit has been the evangelicals who supported McCain and his pro-war positions. They have been convinced that they are obligated to initiate preventive war in the Middle East for theological reasons. Fortunately, this is a minority of the Christian community, but our doors remain open to all despite this type of challenge. The point is, new devotees to the freedom philosophy are more likely to come from the left than from those conservatives who have been convinced that God has instructed us to militarize the Middle East.

Although we were on the receiving end of ridicule in the reporting of the press conference, I personally was quite satisfied with the results. True revolutions are not won in a week, a month, or even a year. They take time. But we are making progress, and the momentum remains and is picking up. The Campaign for Liberty is alive and well, and its growth and influence will continue. Obviously the press conference could have been even more successful without the last-minute change of heart by the Libertarian Party candidate by not participating. He stated that his support for the four points remains firm. His real reason for not coming, nor letting me know until forty minutes before the press conference started, is unknown to me. To say the least, I was shocked and disappointed.

Yet in the long run, this last-minute change in plans will prove to be of little importance. I’m convinced that problems like this always seem bigger at the moment, yet things usually work out in the end. Recovering from the mistakes and shortcomings of all that we do in this effort is not difficult if the message is right and our efforts are determined. And I’m convinced they are. That’s what will determine our long-term success, not the shortcomings of any one person.

The Libertarian Party Candidate admonished me for "remaining neutral" in the presidential race and not stating whom I will vote for in November. It’s true; I have done exactly that due to my respect and friendship and support from both the Constitution and Libertarian Party members. I remain a lifetime member of the Libertarian Party and I’m a ten-term Republican Congressman. It is not against the law to participate in more then one political party. Chuck Baldwin has been a friend and was an active supporter in the presidential campaign.

I continue to wish the Libertarian and Constitution Parties well. The more votes they get, the better. I have attended Libertarian Party conventions frequently over the years.

In some states, one can be on the ballots of two parties, as they can in New York. This is good and attacks the monopoly control of politics by Republicans and Democrats. We need more states to permit this option. This will be a good project for the Campaign for Liberty, along with the alliance we are building to change the process.

I’ve thought about the unsolicited advice from the Libertarian Party candidate, and he has convinced me to reject my neutral stance in the November election. I’m supporting Chuck Baldwin, the Constitution Party candidate.

[RobotJones]

i'm a huge supporter of reforming the two-party system. i've supported many politicians of third parties from the green party to the libertarian party. these two couldn't be further apart in the political spectrum, but yet they still have a few things in common. mainly, they are fighting the status quo of our electoral process which has become a duopoly of the democrats and republicans. the elite in this nation (and world) stage such long elections to simulate choice. but the two candidates too often only differ in rhetoric and "hot" issues, such as abortion and same-sex marriage. they personally don't care about those issues, they just take a stance one way or another to pander to certain demographics of voters. it's high time the people of this country care enough to really elect who we want, not just choose from the two people that were placed in front of us.

in addition to the green party and the libertarian party, check out the modern whig party. the whig party has been around since 1833 and was the original party of abraham lincoln and four other presidents. the cool thing about this particular third party is that they're not a fringe party. they don't lean WAY to the left or WAY to the right. they're a centrist, middle-of-the-road party who claim independance from the oppressive system we have in place now. they're supposedly the fastest growing non-fringe party in america, claiming a third of their members are active or reserve service members.

anyway, just thought i'd put some thoughts out there.

[jonny-5]

in addition to the green party and the libertarian party, check out the modern whig party. the whig party has been around since 1833 and was the original party of abraham lincoln and four other presidents. the cool thing about this particular third party is that they're not a fringe party. they don't lean WAY to the left or WAY to the right. they're a centrist, middle-of-the-road party who claim independance from the oppressive system we have in place now. they're supposedly the fastest growing non-fringe party in america, claiming a third of their members are active or reserve service members.

anyway, just thought i'd put some thoughts out there.

i didnt know those guys were still around. im gonna read up on those guys.


edit: ok i just read up on them and it sounds like a decent party.

[Princess]

I fully agree with you pharmboy. Change around the medical problems a bit and we're in the same boat.

The only thing I wanted to throw in is that I wish Obama would have said something to really set off Mccain and show that nasty temper of his. Awe, there's still time :)

I'm really really really looking forward to watching Biden & Palin go rounds. I'm not sure she can hang with Biden. THAT will make for a good debate!




I don't think it's any secret around here I am ultra-liberal if not

a revolutionist. The way I feel about our government is like a

forest fire, let it burn to the ground and maybe something good

will sprout from the ashes. God knows there is nothing good growing

in the forest now. But as I have said before, I see Obama as the lesser

evil in this race. For me in my position now and with my problems ( chronic

pain, Crohns, depression, etc ) he could be the only choice although I

really wish Ron Paul hadn't been black balled by the media and given a

fair chance, he's the only candidate that really made sense to me.

[dharma bum]

I'm not sure she can hang with Biden. THAT will make for a good debate!

Yeah, Biden knows his shit and is pretty fiery and compassionate. If anybody has seen Palin asked questions by the media then you know how embarrasingly little she knows. Biden will absolutely slaughter this woman. I hope he shows no mercy and really pulls that smiling mask of hers off.

[nick]

Yeah, Biden knows his shit and is pretty fiery and compassionate. If anybody has seen Palin asked questions by the media then you know how embarrasingly little she knows. Biden will absolutely slaughter this woman. I hope he shows no mercy and really pulls that smiling mask of hers off.

Palin's a nut,but Biden...........what a piece of drek.

[Badly Drawn Girl]

Well I watched most of the debate. I thought Mccain looked like a weasel. He got no points with his snarky little laugh. I though Obama appeared to be much more prepared, and was able to debate without taking personal potshots.

And I agree that the VP debate should be a hoot. I'm still trying to understand how Palin's state's close proximity to Russia qualifies as international policy experience. She's some clueless that will she will probably resort to silly phrases and eye rolling.

[nick]

Well I watched most of the debate. I thought Mccain looked like a weasel. He got no points with his snarky little laugh. I though Obama appeared to be much more prepared, and was able to debate without taking personal potshots.

And I agree that the VP debate should be a hoot. I'm still trying to understand how Palin's state's close proximity to Russia qualifies as international policy experience. She's some clueless that will she will probably resort to silly phrases and eye rolling.

Her eating at a chinese restaurant,is all the foreign policy experience she has.

I'd love to have heard her chat with Karzai.

[Duckfeet]

Wow: this thread is *really* good: several posts just made my day: I didn't know *who* Ron Paul was voting for: I changed my voter registration to vote for him, and sent him a few bucks, and if I were in Houston, I'd probably move to his district...haha...: and I agree w/earlier poster who sees that libertarians, and greenies, and leftwing liberals and all, need to come together...and I felt that *maybe* Ron Paul provided that possibility...but there was the dilemma: most of those people--other than hardcore RP supporters, couldn't vote republican even if Jane Fonda was on the ticket: it just goes againt their grain...I'm that way about democrats, since I think they provide false promise, and are too quick to pander to any group who can get out the vote...and sent me to the last insane war we had...
And naturally, getting older, I'm finding out you can count on *two* things, which go hand in hand: arthritis, and getting more conservative...

But even so, I can't stomach republican party, tho there is a place in my heart for John McCaine, simply because when he was young, he went to war, and I have sympathies for that...and I actually remember when he was a maverick, and saying things that *neither* party had said before...

But it's such a rigged deck: I'll probably just vote my usual protest vote of libertarian party: once RP was out of the primaries I changed back, not to libertarian, but to "not willing to declare" or whatever non-aligned people put...

Neither party gives a shit about addicts, and Ron Paul was the only active, elected politician *ever* to say what he said about doctors and pain medication, so I'll vote for him 'til I drop...other than that, when it comes to war, Charlie Rangel is the only honest politician, since without a draft, chickenhawks who don't go to war themself, will conitinue to start'em...

[Raz]

You only gotta look at the demeanour of Mcain and you can see he's a fuckin nutter!!......If America votes this nut into the white house then it truly is a sad sad indictment on America.....He will just make America more of a joke....

This is supposed to be the 21st centuary and we is supposed to be civilised!....You can see this dude is never far from boiling point and he;s gonna be in charge of the "free world"....Cant see this fuckin idiot promoting much freedom.More like retricting the little freedom you guys have....It will be a bad day for humanity if this fool gets in office....

[Seedy]

there's so many ignorant redneck bible belt republican americans voting for him i honestly don't think obama has a chance.

[pharmboy]

Biden has a tough job ahead of him, if he ripps the shit out of Palin then

the media will bash him for being mean to a girl and if he goes light well

then he dosen't win. Rock and a hard place.

[Hannah]

There was a point where Bamako Obediah was agreeing with McCain Cobain and the sound started to go in and out...I laughed my ass off, 'OH MY GED!!! OBADIAH IS MAKING US LOOK LIKE SHIT!!!1111' BROUHAHA....:) On another note when I was a kid I called my little sister a Democrat! (as an insult!) :p

[repeek]

Here is my two cents, neither the Democrats or Republicans represent the core values of their parties and this has been the case for some time. The Democratic Party line if the truth be told is simply this; “Keep them ignorant, keep them poor, and convince them we’re their only hope”. The Republicans are not conservative nor have they been for a long time, they are supposed to be against big government, the party that believes in the rights of the people and state rights are not to be trumped by a money wasting federal bureaucracy with special interests. Their real party line if the truth be told is “If you close your eyes and dream the core values we are supposed to represent are still what we represent long enough, we will again represent them. “ Trust us”.

If anyone looks objectively at either party, you cannot help but see they are one and the same, pandering for votes by insulting the intelligence of every American while they destroy the fabric of our nation seeking the (now impotent )power of the three branches that (are supposed to) represent the voice of the American people.

The voice of the people are not represented by either parties, and that is what they are……….great big parties that go on all year long with you and I footing the bill as they all rake in the millions and stuff their pockets while laughing all the way to the bank.

I don’t know what it will take to wake up the American people, our government is as corrupt as any other, and I would hope that the majority of people would send a strong message to the politicians of this nation by casting a write in vote for Daffy Duck.

[george123]

You know, what struck me the most was that they seemed to agree on most issues, and they disguised this fact with word play and posturing. When they did disagree, it was over minor details of the central issue which they still agreed on, so they were really just splitting cunt hairs at that point.

[mrnatural]

Back in 1969, my landlord down the road (Jeanette Rankin rented us the "Roundhouse") was the first woman elected to Congress back in 1918, from Montana, though she had retired to north Georgia at that time. She was a firebrand, a sufferagette and a confirmed pacifist. In fact, she was the only member of congress to vote against US entry into both World Wars, I & II. I have to take her view that we need to do away completely with the electoral college and have a direct presidential vote between anyone who can drum up enough support to get on a ballot, write-in or otherwise. I'm really tired of living in a state where my vote doesn't count, because nobody but Republicans are winning national elections and no one else puts forth the effort because they don't think they stand a chance. Hell, I think I'll write in Cynthia McKinney, she's spunky as hell. If the national election was decided by a cumulative popular vote, I'd vote Obama. But voting for him in a state where he's lucky to get 40%, well, hell. Sorry for the rant. I can get passionate about somethings other than drugs, and although what Duckfeet said about getting older and more conservative is true about many, I feel more like an anarchist now than I did back in my SDS-SSOC days.

[RxQueen]

Here is my two cents, neither the Democrats or Republicans represent the core values of their parties and this has been the case for some time. The Democratic Party line if the truth be told is simply this; “Keep them ignorant, keep them poor, and convince them we’re their only hope”. The Republicans are not conservative nor have they been for a long time, they are supposed to be against big government, the party that believes in the rights of the people and state rights are not to be trumped by a money wasting federal bureaucracy with special interests. Their real party line if the truth be told is “If you close your eyes and dream the core values we are supposed to represent are still what we represent long enough, we will again represent them. “ Trust us”.
<snip>



i usually stay waaaay outta all political threads and discussions... arguing gives me headaches. but i just gotta say that these descriptions of the 2 major parties are by far the most accurate i've ever seen.

[dharma bum]

Palin's a nut,but Biden...........what a piece of drek.

dreck (drhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ebreve.gifk)
n. Slang Trash, especially inferior merchandise


Ouch, really? Maybe he's got me fooled and i don't doubt you a bit. I was thinking he was one of the few with a backbone...

[nick]

dreck (drhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ebreve.gifk)
n. Slang Trash, especially inferior merchandise


Ouch, really? Maybe he's got me fooled and i don't doubt you a bit. I was thinking he was one of the few with a backbone...

Man,Biden is a hardcore drug war warrior.If you look at his record.......jesus,he's scary and re-drek,I believe it refers to the small,rotton,useless part of a whale carcass that has no use.

and on reflection and after watching parts of the debate again,it's pretty clear neither candidate has any idea what to do about all the major issues,which is disturbing.

[Duckfeet]

Yup: I don't watch t.v., or even read newspapers, except once a week, get the NYTimes, and they kind of recap everything...and of course, I go to Mom's, who is rabid democrat, hates Bush, and *really* wants me to defend him, as several of my friends do...but I'm libertarian, and my boy Paul already lost, so I just "watch with interest..."

But when I read about now war is getting worse in *Pakistan*, falling apart in Afghanistan, and "more of the same" in Iraq, it's hard not to get discouraged, and to think, is this "the end" for western civ? Will it be Religious Zealotry against Chinese Ruthlessness, and will the west, and representative gov't just be a sad footnote in history?

Between the bailout, and the war, Mom and everybody thinks there is an obvious answer: democratic party...but I read too much history, and remember which president got Vietnam going, and all that, and get mightily discouraged, I tell you...

I spent a few hrs sunday studying the financial mess and what "caused it..." and this blame goes all over the place, and--to me--basically boils down to whether or not one thinks people are basically venal and corrupt, or not...and more and more, I think, in general, that they are: when I found out just how much Wall St, and Financial Interests had donated to both McCaine *and* Obama, it was just too much...

Somone once said that once over fifty percent of the people realize that they can vote in politicians who will give them money, democracy is doomed, and from war profiteers to banking, here we are...

biggest con--to me--is to think one of two major parties is different from the other....they tell me I just throw away my vote, and I say, no, you do....


Man,Biden is a hardcore drug war warrior.If you look at his record.......jesus,he's scary and re-drek,I believe it refers to the small,rotton,useless part of a whale carcass that has no use.

and on reflection and after watching parts of the debate again,it's pretty clear neither candidate has any idea what to do about all the major issues,which is disturbing.