Real World Equivalence of opiates

[pain-pateint]

Hey all --

If a pharmacist, doctor, patient or junkie were to regularly prescribe, use or abuse [isn't it neat how the verb here is dictated by the subject?:cool:] an opiate in the form of Oxycontin 60 mg tid po and Dilaudid 4mg 1-2 q4-6h po prn and found themselves in a situation wherein the only available opiate on a temporary and emergency basis is Vicodin, how would a conversion be made?

The specific information I am looking for are what dosages the hydrocodone appears in Vicodin, Vicodin ES, St. Jospeh's Baby Vicodin and all possible permutations thereof?

The second thing I want to find out is related to my use of multiple subjects and verbs in the opening sentence of this missive. I am interested in whether there is ANY difference in making a careful conversion as called for above depending on which combination of subject/verb in that sentence were used? In other words, are the "equivalant numbers" the same if the prescriber or user were a doctor, a patient, a junkie, or a pharmacist? I am thinking here about the fact that Oxycontin likely has more relative value in an illicit/regulated market because it provides for "instant release" if the tab is chewed and probably also is likely easier to inject than a more "gummy" time release mechanism. It's easy to imagine circumstances in which Vicodin would be disfavored due the acetamiinophen it contains and to likewise disvalue Opana ER (gummy hard to defeat time release, I am told) compared to MS Contin. Other circumstances immaterial to subject/verb options here change values, as well of course. The Schedule III status of Vicodin might make it more valued depending upon ambient legal ramifications.

So, please, I will value all opinions.

M:o

[bronyraur]

Lemme guess, you ran out of your meds early and all you've got is Vicodin?

Just wondering, makes things easier to explain too.

Here's a dosage converter, it can give you a ballpark figure as to how much hydrocodone you'd need.

Converter: http://www.globalrph.com/narcoticonv.htm

Just a forewarning, a person on oxycodone and hydroMORPHONE will most likely no get much pain relief from hydroCODONE, one of the active ingredients in Vicodin. Not to mention the fact that Vicodin is full of nasty APAP.

[jonny-5]

the amount of vicodin you would need would be unsafe for your liver.

[SHELLEY]

you use a lot of words to not say much

rephrased "how much vicodin equals [your amount] of dilaudid?"

seriously... i had to read that a buncha times to figure out wtf you were saying

[Tbird921]

60mg of oxy and 8mg of dilly a day, you would have to take atleast 100mg+ of hydrocondone to feel pain relief to do that you would have to CWE a HUGE amount of vics maybe if you CWE'ed a whole RX of vics you might be able to tide yourself over a day or two, you would need A LOT though.

[pain-pateint]

I'm disappointed. Yes, I used a lot of words, but I also asked MUCH MORE than for just conversion numbers. First off, I asked if there would be any difference if it were for a pain patient or junkie, doctor or pharmacist? Second, in actuality, SWIM wants to help someone who is not a regular opiate user and has NO TOLERANCE, thus SWIM's current dosing options of 60 mg Oxy's would be TOO STRONG, and SWIM might be able to trade his meds for Vicodins in this hypothetical, fictional place:). So, the question is really what SWIM might consider to be a "fair trade" in order for SWIM to obtain meds for an opiate naive but very in-pain friend.

More importantly, I wanted to know if certain classes of people (hence, patients, junkies, doctors, etc.) would consider the usual opiate conversion tables not quite accurate for any particular reason?

Finally, I was trying to point just how our use of language allows people to inject normative or moral beliefs into what should be pure clinical science.

Is this phrasing any better?

Best,

M

[nick]

I'm disappointed. Yes, I used a lot of words, but I also asked MUCH MORE than for just conversion numbers. First off, I asked if there would be any difference if it were for a pain patient or junkie, doctor or pharmacist? Second, in actuality, SWIM wants to help someone who is not a regular opiate user and has NO TOLERANCE, thus SWIM's current dosing options of 60 mg Oxy's would be TOO STRONG, and SWIM might be able to trade his meds for Vicodins in this hypothetical, fictional place:). So, the question is really what SWIM might consider to be a "fair trade" in order for SWIM to obtain meds for an opiate naive but very in-pain friend.

More importantly, I wanted to know if certain classes of people (hence, patients, junkies, doctors, etc.) would consider the usual opiate conversion tables not quite accurate for any particular reason?

Finally, I was trying to point just how our use of language allows people to inject normative or moral beliefs into what should be pure clinical science.

Is this phrasing any better?

Best,

M

Don't worry about it bro,Shelley has a large mouth.......well that's what her former clients say.

Now your question,sure meds have different values to all the groups you mentioned,pain patients are interested in theraputic value,junkys are interested in getting high,docs in keeping the DEA happy,pharmacists in making money.

Oxycontin is far more valuable to a doper than the equivalant dose of vikes.
That's a bit of a generalisation,but it's also kinda true.It's worth noting that we all do bad deals sometimes,it depends on how much need your in.

[Pantopon Pete]

you use a lot of words to not say much

rephrased "how much vicodin equals [your amount] of dilaudid?"

seriously... i had to read that a buncha times to figure out wtf you were saying


Amen to that, sister... coming from a fairly wordy person myself, that post was hella wordy. Yeah, I just said "hella". I promised myself long ago that if I ever said "hella", I would immediately kill myself, so- goodbye, cruel world.

[Ludakris]

I'm disappointed. Yes, I used a lot of words, but I also asked MUCH MORE than for just conversion numbers. First off, I asked if there would be any difference if it were for a pain patient or junkie, doctor or pharmacist? Second, in actuality, SWIM wants to help someone who is not a regular opiate user and has NO TOLERANCE, thus SWIM's current dosing options of 60 mg Oxy's would be TOO STRONG, and SWIM might be able to trade his meds for Vicodins in this hypothetical, fictional place:). So, the question is really what SWIM might consider to be a "fair trade" in order for SWIM to obtain meds for an opiate naive but very in-pain friend.

More importantly, I wanted to know if certain classes of people (hence, patients, junkies, doctors, etc.) would consider the usual opiate conversion tables not quite accurate for any particular reason?

Finally, I was trying to point just how our use of language allows people to inject normative or moral beliefs into what should be pure clinical science.

Is this phrasing any better?

Best,

M



No worries about the phrasing of questions, a semi challenging read is good for ya...step outside of the reflexive one step answers box and actually think for a change...personally, I welcome it.

In short though, if an in pain, opiate naive person were to only have access to OC 60's and D-8's...I'd say, instead of trading for Vics (ES's of course are 7.5/750, standard is teh 5/500, lortab/norco's can get up to 10/325, and any one of these doses would be fine for a zero tolerance user). Anyways, rather than trading, why not just chip off a piece of the OC 60? shaving off about 10mg should give decent relief to a naive, in pain, friend and you can bypass the nasty APAP.

I think Nick put it well as far as your questions regarding person/profession. In the end though, regardless of demographic/occupation, it's going to come down to personality type.