Hydro potency poll

[resorcinol]

We all know hydro is fairly weak. Most sources say that hydrocodone is either 0.5x the potency of oxycodone or 0.75. the potency of hydrocodone, which gives the equivalence as either 10 mg hydro = 5 mg oxy or 10 mg hydro = 7.5 mg oxy. Lets take the average of those two and say that hydro is 0.625x the potency of oxycodone or 10 mg hydro = 6.25 mg oxy.

Lets ignore prodrugs and partial agonism now, since those factors introduce ceilings. It's fair to do that since oxycodone and hydrocodone are both full u opioid rec. agonists, and oxycodone and hydrocodone are both active by themselves and have a similar metabolic profile.

*note: It's debated whether hydrocodone is a prodrug or not. I'm in the camp that thinks hydrocodone is a prodrug. My reasons are the following: 1) hydrocodone's analgesic and euphoric effects are not blunted by cyp2d6 inhibitors or a deficiency in cyp2d6 like codeine is. If hydrocodone had to be metabolized into hydromorphone (cyp2d6 does this) like codeine has to be metabolized into morphine (by cyp2d6) [and codeine 6-glucuronide (by glucuronidation)] then hydrocodone should show reduced efficacy in cyp2d6 poor metabolizers. 2) hydrocodone can be redosed and not have it's own effects inhibited severely like codeine's are when redosed. All opiates are less effacious with redosing, often even in a higher dose, but codeine is the worst in this regard, while hydro's profile is more like other opiates. I also think dihydrocodiene (DHC) is active by itself. I think the hydrogenation of that double bond allows better seating in the u receptor for both DHC and HCO.

OK! My question is this -

Lets look at 80 mg oxycodone and 150 mg hydro. Those doses are equivalent according to the averaged ratio at the beginning of this post.

1) Do you think they would feel almost the same and equally potent?

2 )Do you think they would feel equally potent but the hydro would feel dirtier?

3) Do you think the hydro won't feel as potent as the oxy regardless?

4) Other

The science seems to suggest something between the first and the second choice.

You can either answer from experience or just pick what you think would probably be the case. No worries in this post. How things feel are so subjective that accuracy is pretty impossible anyway.

I'm gonna go with 2. I've never taken such a high dose of hydro... I just stuck with stronger stuff when my tol got high, so I'm just saying probably.

I think 2 because I'm guessing while you'd get roughly equivalent receptor binding, as total dose increases somewhat REGARDLESS of drug potency, unwanted side effects increase. I believe that more potent drugs are cleaner because less needs to be taken, GENERALLY. With hydro and oxy I think it probably applies. BUT EMMV (Everyone's Mileage May Vary).

Nerdy poll, eh? :p

[jonny-5]

when they give equivalents like that, they are talking strictly a mg by mg basis, how much it takes to have a therapeutic effect. oxycodone has a stronger effect than hydro in my experience. like for instance, they give conversions for how much hydro is equivalent to morphine. if i took less morphine than the hydro equvalent, i still think i would feel it better and enjoy it more.

[resorcinol]

when they give equivalents like that, they are talking strictly a mg by mg basis, how much it takes to have a therapeutic effect. oxycodone has a stronger effect than hydro in my experience. like for instance, they give conversions for how much hydro is equivalent to morphine. if i took less morphine than the hydro equvalent, i still think i would feel it better and enjoy it more.

I agree.

I think that feeling of stronger is because the high is cleaner though. You may have a diff. reason but I totally agree with your conclusion.

[Papa Verine]

I've always thought the highs from these 2 drugs were very similar when compared this way. I mean 100mg of Hydro would be no different then 62.5mg of Oxy for me. I'm just not that sensitive to different opiate highs. I can say drugs like Tramadol and Propoxyphene have that "dirty" feeling... and I can feel the difference between morphine and methadone. But when comparing 2 opiates that are as closely related as these, I can't feel a difference.

[jonny-5]

hydro gives me a less sedating high than oxy. i used to think hydro was very euphoric, and in my first few experiences with oxy i liked the hydro high better. but back then hydros cost me 4 bux each (for a 10mg norco) and 5mg percs were 2 bux. so i kept buying the percs and it didnt take long for me to like that high better. hydro does kind of seem "dirty" to me now, but my ONLY experiences with it in the last three years have been when i was in wds from heroin, so thats why.

[LorTabitha]

I've always gotten a better feeling from hydro. Oxy works, but doesn't give me any euphoria, just pain relief (which I'll take!)

[Raisin]

Oxy is a warm fresh pair of boxer shorts straight from the dryer, making the more immediate portions of my senses come alive while Hydro is a warm blanket that relaxes my body as a whole.

[Papa Verine]

Oxy is a warm fresh pair of boxer shorts straight from the dryer, making the more immediate portions of my senses come alive while Hydro is a warm blanket that relaxes my body as a whole.

That's one way to put it...

[Boxcar]

hmmm, this is really interesting. IMO, i think the hydro is not as strong, could be a huge tolerance to it tho. in the equation, (without looking back) and in my world, its 15 norco or 8 percs (assuming both are 10/325).. ive never gotten loaded off anything likw i have the percs. but only the ENDOs. the warm, itchy fuzzy, eyes roll back. i cant cant get that from hydro. but if you had both in yer hands and were offerin id go oxy. i dont qhuite understand the dirtyier part. i guess i never thot of one cleaner than the other. im all fucked up right now tho, maybe i dont have any idea of whta yer talkin about. i thot i did when i started typing.i would choose less 5/325 ENDOS than more 10/325 hydros

if you offered me 8 ENDOS even being the 5's id take em over like 12- 15 of the norcs.

id like to understand the dirtier feeling i guess. yer science makes complete sense tho.

years ago DR would give me MScontin 45mg in the AM and 45 in the PM, with 10/325 percs 4-6 a day for BT. i actually asked him to give me the 5/325 percs instead. i liked them better. i thot he was gonna gimme double tho. but he didnt. same quanity.

i chalk it upto everyone sbody is so different, guess thats why it takes so many combos and trys to get pain under control.
could one have a massive tollerence to the hydro but not the oxy. i mean they are so closely related. but hydro stopped workin for me like in 2/3 months, that was like 6 years ago. the best i can say is enuff of em will keep me from W/d, im forced to do it every month, all i have access too once my fents gone. 20 30 a day, still no buzz. i can goto ER get a bottle of 15 percs, and get off really good twicw.

this whole thing confuses me dammit

[sofitel]

The two just give such a different buzz it hard to say what % of each makes them equally "potent". Most of the prescribing/dosage converters are basing the potency on pain relief only, which is subjective and depends on the type of pain too.

But from a recreational view, I would say that you would need 15mg of Hydro for every 10mg of Oxy to get a similar effect. But like everybody knows, its a totally different deal. Oxy is normally WAY more stimulating to me than hydro ever is. BUT, and this is a big BUT, it really depends on the brand of Oxy. Amide puts me to sleep, while Ethex wires me like crank, and the true Roxis from Xanodyne are just right. Supposed to be the same drug, but that's a joke.

So, in my experience, the brand makes much more difference with Oxy than it does with Hydro. Hydro is more consistent in effect from different suppliers.

[Papa Verine]

BUT, and this is a big BUT, it really depends on the brand of Oxy. Amide puts me to sleep, while Ethex wires me like crank, and the true Roxis from Xanodyne are just right. Supposed to be the same drug, but that's a joke.

Are you serious?

What could be so different about these brands of oxycodone to account for the difference in effects you described here? It is still the same drug... oxycodone.

I just have a hard time accepting this. I think what's more likely is that it's all in your head.

[sofitel]

Are you serious?

What could be so different about these brands of oxycodone to account for the difference in effects you described here? It is still the same drug... oxycodone.

I just have a hard time accepting this. I think what's more likely is that it's all in your head.

I've been prescribed the stuff for years. I've tried them all. And tried the various brands repeatedly with months between each. Same effect each time. If you search this site and others, you will find its not just me saying this. The FDA says a generic must contain the same dose of the listed API. But the pharmacology of that API can differ depending on the base used and how it is extracted and converted.

Its not just Oxy either. Do a search on generic Ambien and read what people think about certain brands of that compared to the real thing.

[bigNasty]

The two just give such a different buzz it hard to say what % of each makes them equally "potent". Most of the prescribing/dosage converters are basing the potency on pain relief only, which is subjective and depends on the type of pain too.

But from a recreational view, I would say that you would need 15mg of Hydro for every 10mg of Oxy to get a similar effect. But like everybody knows, its a totally different deal. Oxy is normally WAY more stimulating to me than hydro ever is. BUT, and this is a big BUT, it really depends on the brand of Oxy. Amide puts me to sleep, while Ethex wires me like crank, and the true Roxis from Xanodyne are just right. Supposed to be the same drug, but that's a joke.
.
^^^ I agree with this. 30mg hydro and 20mg oxy gives me a similar buzz but the oxy is more stimulating and makes me itch a tiny bit more. It also lasts an hour or two longer IMO. People in my area always buy hydro's and I tell them they are crazy since both go for .50 per mg and oxy's are stronger. I think its cause they got familiar with hydro's so they have a biased opinion of oxy, and they are stupid IMO. I'd rather buy perc 5's for $3 than lortab 10's for $5 and my friends think I'm crazy, but I think they're retarded

[cactus31]

This comes up quite a bit.

After taking thousands of both, I really don't know that I feel a difference between the two. It always blows me away when I hear of hydro being at 0.5 to 0.75 the strength of oxy...to me, that's not the case.

I'd say oxycodone has a very slightly more 'potent' feeling that does hydro, at least to me.

If I was given pills and didn't know which was which, I'd probably not know the difference.

A lot of people hate on hydrocodone, but that medicine has been a lifesaver for me. I'm relatively new to the opiate thing (2.5 years or so), so maybe that's why. My tolerance is about 30-37.5 mg of hydro at a pop to get going good.

[bronyraur]

Given the criteria listed in resorcinol's original post, I would go with option 2, "equally potent, but the hydrocodone feels dirtier".

From my experience with both these drugs, the more hydro I took, the less I enjoyed the high. It began to feel "chemical" and not just a good euphoric high.

However, with oxycodone, regardless of the dose, I still had consistent euphoria.

[bored in sofl]

Oxy is a warm fresh pair of boxer shorts straight from the dryer, making the more immediate portions of my senses come alive while Hydro is a warm blanket that relaxes my body as a whole.
now thats poetry

[Consumed.]

I would take 150mg of oxycodone over 100mg of pure hydro (if that was possible) any day. For whatever reason hydrocodone really doesnt do shit for me.

[resorcinol]

*note: It's debated whether hydrocodone is a prodrug or not. I'm in the camp that thinks hydrocodone is a prodrug. My reasons are the following: 1) hydrocodone's analgesic and euphoric effects are not blunted by cyp2d6 inhibitors or a deficiency in cyp2d6 like codeine is. If hydrocodone had to be metabolized into hydromorphone (cyp2d6 does this) like codeine has to be metabolized into morphine (by cyp2d6) [and codeine 6-glucuronide (by glucuronidation)] then hydrocodone should show reduced efficacy in cyp2d6 poor metabolizers. 2) hydrocodone can be redosed and not have it's own effects inhibited severely like codeine's are when redosed. All opiates are less effacious with redosing, often even in a higher dose, but codeine is the worst in this regard, while hydro's profile is more like other opiates. I also think dihydrocodiene (DHC) is active by itself. I think the hydrogenation of that double bond allows better seating in the u receptor for both DHC and HCO.




Whoa, I made a kinda big mistake there!

I Meant to say "I'm in the camp that thinks hydrocodone ISN'T a prodrug". That's probably obvious from the reasoning following it but it still looks dumb :p

wish I could edit that

[HandMeSomeOpiates]

Whoa, I made a kinda big mistake there!

I Meant to say "I'm in the camp that thinks hydrocodone ISN'T a prodrug". That's probably obvious from the reasoning following it but it still looks dumb :p

wish I could edit that
I've always wonder what people mean when they say pro-drug. My doc prescribes me Adderall XR 25mg and a new drug V...something can't spell it. But I know it has dexidrine in it. He said it was a pro drug. What does this mean?? Does it have less of an abuse potential?? Thanks in advance!

HMSO

[resorcinol]

I've always wonder what people mean when they say pro-drug. My doc prescribes me Adderall XR 25mg and a new drug V...something can't spell it. But I know it has dexidrine in it. He said it was a pro drug. What does this mean?? Does it have less of an abuse potential?? Thanks in advance!

HMSO

A pro drug is a drug that has no (or very little) potency at the target site, but has a metabolite that has the desired effects.

Codeine, lisdexamphetamine (Vyvanse), and Heroin are examples.

In most cases they're less desirable than a regular drug because they have a dose ceiling where taking more past the ceiling won't intensify the effects because liver enzymes that make the active metabolite become saturated.

However if a prodrug has special properties, It could be better than it's active metabolite. Heroin is dead inactive.... pitiful affinity for the mu opioid receptor. But it's more lipophilic than morphine, so it crosses into the brain faster, and it's metabolism to morphine is a quick, simple process (hydrolysis) so the enzymes (very abundant for hydrolysis since it's such a common process) aren't nearly as easily saturated. And they're present in the brain, so heroin can cross the brain faster than morphine and then quickly be metabolized to morphine and 6-monoacetylmorphine (potent u-agonists) once inside the brain. Heroin's half life is just a few minutes.

Hope that helped

[jonny-5]

A pro drug is a drug that has no (or very little) potency at the target site, but has a metabolite that has the desired effects.

Codeine, lisdexamphetamine (Vyvanse), and Heroin are examples.

In most cases they're less desirable than a regular drug because they have a dose ceiling where taking more past the ceiling won't intensify the effects because liver enzymes that make the active metabolite become saturated.

However if a prodrug has special properties, It could be better than it's active metabolite. Heroin is dead inactive.... pitiful affinity for the mu opioid receptor. But it's more lipophilic than morphine, so it crosses into the brain faster, and it's metabolism to morphine is a quick, simple process (hydrolysis) so the enzymes (very abundant for hydrolysis since it's such a common process) aren't nearly as easily saturated. And they're present in the brain, so heroin can cross the brain faster than morphine and then quickly be metabolized to morphine and 6-monoacetylmorphine (potent u-agonists) once inside the brain. Heroin's half life is just a few minutes.

Hope that helped

man do i love heroin. i already knew how it worked but just reading about it gives me a hard on.

have you ever read the study that said that ex heroin users who were given IV bupe blindy and were then asked to identify what they were given they said it was heroin? its so hard to believe for me.

[red26]

I've always gotten a better feeling from hydro. Oxy works, but doesn't give me any euphoria, just pain relief (which I'll take!) This is my take on it too. If I could take a potency equivelant Id be on hydro and not the Roxi's. Even if I slam 240mgs. of the roxi's the high is gone in a matter of minuites.

[paroxetina]

I chose other because my preferred option isn't there. I think they feel about equal, but I would not say that hydro is dirtier. I think just plain old equal ought to be an option :)

[Poppylvr]

I've always gotten a better feeling from hydro. Oxy works, but doesn't give me any euphoria, just pain relief (which I'll take!)
Funny, we're exactly opposite;). I get quite euphoric from oxy & not much of anything from hydro.

[jonny-5]

i much prefer the "morphones" to the "codones" anyway. and if i were elected president, i would rid the world of acetaminophen!

vote jonny-5 o8 and his running mate hydromorphone

[marshalldylan1]

Oxy is a warm fresh pair of boxer shorts straight from the dryer, making the more immediate portions of my senses come alive while Hydro is a warm blanket that relaxes my body as a whole.
Couldn't of said it better myself. The difference is immensely different. I get more euphoria from Hydro, but oxy is more how you put it.

Though, unless I do a CWE the too much APAP gets me nauseous, but drinking that yummy chalky water gives me all the good and none the bad. No way I could swallow as many as I crush up and freeze. 10-12 of them feels like an 80mc oc if you have little tolerance.


But oxy>hydro

[losangeleslifer]

I have been gobbling down hydro for a while until I started cwe (thank god for this forum!) Ive only tried oxy once. A guy laid an 80mg on me and asked for 30 bucks. I almost shit till someone said it was fair. Didnt realize the whole time release thing, so I just took it. I still got a stronger buzz than if I would have taken 20 5's of hydro.

It was a one time deal, as all I can get now is methadone. (YUK)

Enough with the rant, I go OXY.

[frankie]

hydro gives me a less sedating high than oxy. i used to think hydro was very euphoric, and in my first few experiences with oxy i liked the hydro high better. but back then hydros cost me 4 bux each (for a 10mg norco) and 5mg percs were 2 bux. so i kept buying the percs and it didnt take long for me to like that high better. hydro does kind of seem "dirty" to me now, but my ONLY experiences with it in the last three years have been when i was in wds from heroin, so thats why.
I also use hydro's when i am wd from oxy's and i find that norco's sedates me whereas the oxy's or perc's give me a boost...vikes seem to taste like one big aspirin to me so i try to avoid those.

[pinn3d]

I would actually prefer a high dose of hydro right now... i dunno why.. maybe cuz its harder for me to connect for hydro than oxy....

[Duckfeet]

Me too, Jonny...and I don't whether that makes me sad or happy...but nothing, no other opiate, from oxys to morphine or dilaudids, ever gave me that total physical and mental sense of happiness--for lack of a better word--like good powder heroin...now, not *all* heroin does that for me, tar never has, and it depends a lot on my habit, and some other things...but if I'm kicking slightly, or just "got the craving" and I'm not all strung out at the time, I've never found anything yet that is the same...and the bupe blind studies are just unbelievable to me...usually most studies of this sort (pro methadone, pro bupe) are usually way skewed...too many variables...



man do i love heroin. i already knew how it worked but just reading about it gives me a hard on.

have you ever read the study that said that ex heroin users who were given IV bupe blindy and were then asked to identify what they were given they said it was heroin? its so hard to believe for me.

[scikid]

Hydro sedates me way more then oxycodone (I like oxycodone above all other opiates actually). I like both, but prefer Oxycodone. Right Now SWIM only has Pods and Norcos. Once those run out I'm going to take a break (I don't use daily, usually go one a few weeks to 2 or 3 month "runs" from time to time).

I had a friend (RIP) who liked Tramadol alot (and dope and OC) but totally hated hydrocodone. To the point that she would hook me up with super cheap prices for her hydro script.

[kyito]

In my experience hydros don't do jack and oxy does the trick every time. I've been getting 10/325 yellow hydros (pretty sure theyre vicodin) and 6 of those with pods doesn't really do anything for me more than just the straight pods. Now oxy on the otherhand, eaten or sniffed, or both preferably, will give me a great boost. I've had hydros work from time to time but its hit and miss. I think it has to do with its metabolyte process. Maybe I have less of certain enzymes, I don't know. I'll take oxy over hydro no question.

[Deadfiend]

your really on two levels here cause they really two very different drugs to start out with. I see where you are coming with the poll, but to me there not even in the same ballgame no less league.

[insaneike]

Well they are both pretty damn weak opioids... Hydrocodone is one the weakest at that. I never did get much from from hydrocod, even when I had no tolerance whatsoever. Back then I could get BLISTED from a single Roxi 30mg! I mean completely noddy, and I tried 50mg hydrocodo and it didn't really do shit far as catching a nod goes. It just gave me a lil buzz, but sure not a real opi high.. but I could feel something thats for sure. BUT I used to love mixing hydrocodo with oxycodone. Back when I had no toler, and wasn't dependent the slightest, I would take 15mg roxi and 15-20mg hydrocodo and be blisted and noddy as hell. Hydro worked as a GREAT potentator for oxycodo but by itself, was next to crap.
I LOVED oxycodo back then too, it was my drug of choice aside from smack(hadn't tried any opis cept hydroco, codeine, morph, oxycodo, n smack). I copuld get nodded out with very small amount of roxis/OCs, but hydro just.. I dunno, sucked lol.

I had actualy felt a decent(athough very mild) buzz from Codeine also, but the hydrocodo was not half as good as Codeine was to me. Heck 45mg of MSIR would even have buzzed pretty nicely back before I started using, but 40mg hydro was barely noticable... I always found it weird because some the ppl I hung with in HS was getting high as hell from just 20-30mg of lortab n I would pop 40-50mg and wouldn't be feeling much at all. I thought they was faking at first, but the girl I was with would eat only 25mg and be feeling very good and 30-40mg would have her nodding, like actualy a true nod. I guess I had a natural toler maybe.. cause my younger bro also had this prob, he had ate 4-5 lortab 10s one day at a friends ouse cause theyw ere getting high, he took 2, nothing, 2 more, nothing, n yeah. Yet everyone else over there was opping 2-3 n getting high. Also the very first time I ever touched an opiate, was an OxyContin 40mg. I snorted half of it, didn't really feel much, did half the other half 5mn later, then did the rest about 5-10min later, I wasn't feeling too much really.. and my friend who just did half one was in there high as hell. So I said fuck opis they suck. But then after about the 3rd time of doing them and not feeling much, I did like half a OC40 and got fucking high as hell! and ever since then I could get nodding out from a oc40 or roxi 30! I don't know what happened the first few times.. but a few ppl I know said the first time or two they used they didnt really feel much. and maybe it was because I didn't know what kind of high it was. Like I was used to acid, ice, and bud only at the time. So I was expecting more of a trippy high like the other drugs I'd tried gave. I dunno though but now I love em :CLOUD9:

but thats just to show everyone reacts differently to diff chemicals!

later

[duck]

I've never had a high dose of hydrocodone...what's it like?

By "what's it like" I mean, how does it feel compared to other opiates; i.e., a lot of people claim oxycodone to be very euphoric and crisp/clean as well as having an initial stimulant feeling (I know this is not unanimous but it's fairly accepted) whereas morphine is more heavy and dull feeling and more in the body, with weighty feelings in the shoulders, also more "noddy"

What is hydro like at higher doses, like 50mg or so?

[jersey_emt]

I've never had a high dose of hydrocodone...what's it like?

By "what's it like" I mean, how does it feel compared to other opiates; i.e., a lot of people claim oxycodone to be very euphoric and crisp/clean as well as having an initial stimulant feeling (I know this is not unanimous but it's fairly accepted) whereas morphine is more heavy and dull feeling and more in the body, with weighty feelings in the shoulders, also more "noddy"

What is hydro like at higher doses, like 50mg or so?


Everyone responds different, so it's really impossible to say for sure how you would feel. In my experience though, high doses of hydrocodone felt pretty similar to the same amount of morphine taken orally. More sedating than oxycodone. If you put the effects of morphine and oxycodone on a 1 to 10 scale with morphine at 1 and oxycodone at 10, hydrocodone was between the two, but closer to morphine....about a 3. If that makes any sense at all. I'm not saying that morphine absolutely sucks and oxycodone absolutely rules, and hydrocodone is in the middle. I'm putting the sedating, 'heavy' feeling of morphine at one end of the scale and the more stimulating feeling of oxycodone at the other end. Hydrocodone is between the two, but much closer to morphine than oxycodone.

[bigNasty]

Everyone responds different, so it's really impossible to say for sure how you would feel. In my experience though, high doses of hydrocodone felt pretty similar to the same amount of morphine taken orally. More sedating than oxycodone. If you put the effects of morphine and oxycodone on a 1 to 10 scale with morphine at 1 and oxycodone at 10, hydrocodone was between the two, but closer to morphine....about a 3. If that makes any sense at all. I'm not saying that morphine absolutely sucks and oxycodone absolutely rules, and hydrocodone is in the middle. I'm putting the sedating, 'heavy' feeling of morphine at one end of the scale and the more stimulating feeling of oxycodone at the other end. Hydrocodone is between the two, but much closer to morphine than oxycodone.
I'm quite the opposite. On your scale with 1 being sedating and 10 being stimulating. Oxy is stimulating to me alot of the time but i can actually nod off on the right dose of oxy, more so than hydro. And morphine is stimulating as hell to me for some reason. Everytime i have surgery or do a hospital stay and get a shot/shots of morphine, I'll talk my ass off to the nurses and won't be able to sleep.

So morphine would be a 10, hydro would be a 7, and oxy would be a 6.

60mg's of hydro feels almost identical to 40mg's of oxy IMO, buzz/euphoria wise and pain relief/analgesia wise