opiates for depression

[I am err!]

I would have to say that I'm a fan of hydrocodone, and oxymorphone. The thing with them is its not even the high/relaxation that makes me love them..., its that i feel "normal" when i'm on them. I've had alot of medical problems and i'm always in pain. The constant pain kinda changed me into a bitter, painfull person. When I take pain meds I feel like I used to before all the problems and pain. Is there anybody else that feels this way? I feel that if I continue to use pain meds for this reason, I will become a junkie for life and thats totally unacceptable in my eyes. I'm not addicted in anyway (i can only get a couple of vico's or oxy's a month so..) so is there anyone who has expeirenced what i'm feeling and any other drugs (anti-deppressents) that help in this specific way? I hate ssri's (paxil, zoloft, prozac) i've tried wellbutrin breifly but had no effects after 3 weeks. Any help would be great

[Baseball65]

Red alert baby!!

That is exACTly how I got strung...I never really did the opiate thing....I was too fast for that..much rather smok/snort/slam a 1/4 -1/2 0z. of coke with a hanful of mexican quaaludes......
Than,10 years of being a relatively normal guy later(got married,had kids,got a $$$$job) I had a back surgery or two,couple of accidents.
At first I didn't even take 'em,as I was trying to get out of pain,and they weren't working.

I read Dr John Sarno's "Healing Back Pain" and was out of the chronic pain center and playing Baseball again in 3 weeks..a literal frakin' miracle.

Than.,....I still had jars upon jars of hydro left...I started taking it at work,cuz my boss was a n idiot,cuz my wife was a spoiled Bee-otch,cuz I was Depressed about being a High paid painter instead of a low paid musician.....
I thought of it as an anti-depressant...after all? all the assholes at work took their stupid Prozac,and Lexapro,and Whatever...right???

I only took 2-3 lortab a day for years...and than a little perc if anybody had some...and than somebody hooked me up with a morphine dealer....and than my anti-depressant had me shut in my house 20 hours a day....those assholes on prozac are still at work.

So,YES it is like an anti-depressant..and if you can be cool I totally agree with you that it's fun and beats the blues.........I just fucked up.....I tried one more time to keep it cool.......and I was right back at 10-14 a day in 2 months......the worst part is,I couldn't eat enough to get high,and there is nowhere here to score anything better than hydro...........

I've been on Subutex for a couple of weeks now,and on the days it's stable IT actually acts like an anti-depressant.It even ahd a little report about that at opioid.com,the site bi11i has a bunch of links to.

Check it out....
but you are soooooo right...I used to Never be depressed

-Baseball

[bi11i]

have you guys tried taking 5htp tryptophan before? helps to normalize your serotonin levels (what all other anti-depressants make a feeble attempt at).

you can find it pretty much anywhere. any grocery store that carried vitamins should have it....

[COLONELWAYNE]

Hey man,I'm with you on opiates for depression but unfortunatly most doctors aren't.I went through all the ssri 's and finally settled on wellbutrin 150 sr it too semed to take forever but it will get you there a little faster with a 30mg methylphenidate kicker.Since both are stimulants,they seem to work well for me if taken everyday together in the morning.Once aday is enough and anything over that is overkill.Probably will have to take ambien at night for sleep but guess what? No hangovers the next day!I take a 10 and split it.And being the wellbutrin is a trycyclic anti depressent instead of an ssri,it even helps with withdrawel cravings as well as nicotine! Just give it 4 to 6 weeks to reach it's full potential.The only drawback I have encountered is I don't think you 'll ever get off of it once it adjusts to your bodies chemistry.Tried it once and really freaked out a couple of days later.Panic attacks, paranoid dillusions ,halluecinating and borderline schitzophrenic to name a few! And it was like being back at square one.Took 2 to 4 weeks to get stabilized again.I'll never miss another dose.Of course I'm in my 40's so that could have played a major role in my recovery time.Everything slows down at 40.Know what I mean? If not you will! Col.W

[Perspect]

have you guys tried taking 5htp tryptophan before? helps to normalize your serotonin levels (what all other anti-depressants make a feeble attempt at).

you can find it pretty much anywhere. any grocery store that carried vitamins should have it....

Yes, I have, for a month I tried D-5-HTP in the range from 50 in the start phase upward to 200 mg a day the last two weeks, unfortunately this doesn't seem to be nearly enough, both in terms of time and dose.
I found that it worked a little better combined with some vitamin and mineral supplements and anti-oxidants such as B-vitamin complex, zink, iron, magnesium, copper and fish oil.
I also tried L-5-HTP 4 x 50 mg a day for two weeks together with some cacao extract, but it didn't do shit except for giving me headaches.

A sign of increased serotonin levels have for me been the nightmares that really scares the shit out of me, really hellish but still believeable stuff going on when you sleep, often I wake up with sweats like those you get from abstinence. This have been the case also when I've taken ssri's, maoi's or melatonin.
But once or twice I woke up after a good nights sleep and felt almost as a child again, unbelievably great and ready for whatever new sensations that were in keep for me that day, so I wouldn't say it's a rip off.

Since it get extremely expensive to import (it's against the medical law to sell nowadays, just the extract from the Griffonia bean can be bought over the counter), I'm gonna try and get Tryptophan prescribed instead, because it goes on the "high cost protection" which means that when you have bought medications over a certain sum, they're almost or absolutely free of charge.
For some reason a few rx's are excluded in this scheme though, like ethylmorphine cough syrup (Cocillana-etyfin).

[scarlett44]

I totally agree with you on the depression thing. I feel completely balanced when taking hydro. I don't feel high, but happy. My doc put me on ritalin for adhd and i hate it. I'de like to tell him the hydro makes me feel normal. I had meningitis a few months back and i can't seem to shake it. I take one hydro in am and one in afternoon and it seems to balance, but i'm running out. What else can i take, herbal remedies? Or how can i get any more hydros. I honestly feel like a better mother/wife when i have taken them. Any good websites?

[jacky]

well, seeing as how some opiates help to release dopamine, I would thaink that some company may be able to get opiates reinstaed as anti deppressants in the next few years. tramadol apperantly helps to inhibit dopamine catabolism , but the FDA is refusing to let ultram be used for deppression. as well as dopamine tramadol also seems to help the serotonin levels, which has probably been the cause of some negative reactions to tramadol. in the opioidopamine section of this forum I talk about dopamine release attributed to opiate stimulation, and know that the scientific feild may some day put this science to work once again ( opiates used to be prescribed for deppression in the 50's). what is standing in the way of course is opiophobic controls of theraputic protocol, if opiates help release dopamine then some may at some doses help those with ADD and ADHD, some people and institutions that exist do not want to see opiates used in this fashion. the end result is that people figure it out on their own in the end, and still use the drugs for pain and then the unnapproved benefits are enjoyed. hopefully.........................a good place to check out pharmacodynamics of opiates is opioids.com and the hedonist imperative.

[peacefulwarrior]

I appologize for the LONG rant...its late...i hope it helps:

5htp (5-hydroxytryptophan) is structurally very similar to serotonin which is 5-ht. But you can be very depressed because of low serotonin levels (maybe not enough vesicles, or enough receptors etc) and it wont matter how much 5-htp you take because thats not where the problem is. Tryptophan is one of the "building blocks" that the body starts with and later makes 5htp and eventually 5ht so its even less likely that tryp. will help because its just a more primitive stage of 5htp. (it used to be in common drug stores but a japanese company that made most of the tryptophan made an error in the manufacture which gave many people instant parkinson's...later it was found that tryptophan is safe but because of the incident, its still illegal--or at the least prescription -not sure). Unless you have low levels of serotonin because you're not getting enough of the precursers...these probably won't help you. I used Lexapro for 2 years and then went off...I was dizzy and sick as hell for about 5 days when i stopped but it actually helped to raise my levels and i no longer suffer from depression. The thing is, no one really know what the fuck these things do... no one has any clue how serotonin or other neurotransmitters cause mood (the whole mind-body problem)
Keep in mind that its VERY specific too...the type of serotonin receptor that your antidepressants block (reuptake) is much different than the type of serotonin receptor that powerful entheogens like LSD work at...they both increase serotonin but at different receptor types. I bring it up because depression might come from the type 2A receptor in some and come from another receptor in another...so if antidepressants dont work at first you might want to keep trying different types. Wellbutrin made me more depressed but Lexapro TEMPORARILY worked.
Opiates dramatically hijack certain dopeminergic systems (particularly the medial forbrain bundle) and when stimulated in mice, theyll give up food, water and sex for their fix. All addictive drugs actually work at this dopamine tract-cocaine and amphetamines work at it more directly which makes their abuse potential top of the line. I do agree jacky that opiates might have anti-depressant value but are they really a solution? Any drug that you put in the brain will change the connectivity and the more you take it the more compensatory regulation will make you need to take more...Even current ssri's generally need to be increased over time. So the question remains, do we take drugs for depression for years until we either die from possible side-effects or until our brain has downregulated most of its receptors to the point of the drug being ineffective yet necessary to avoid withdrawals.
Ultimately, the changes that need to be made need to come from within. Easier said than done but the only answer I've been able to find.
The dopemenergic systems that opiates hijack are now called the reward/reinforcement circuits because they are used to give us rewards, enforce behavior that is beneficial to us, and bring us general joy and enthusiasm...If we become addicted and exhaust these systems, then it makes sence that normal things in life wont make you happy and general enthusiasm will be low. If youre not addicted and opiates are the only thing that brings you back to normal I would personally hypothesize that dopamine levels might be low in the brain (but again its way complex and specific and all the Neurotransmitters are intimately related). Wellbutrin increases dopamine levels (as well as the other major 2 Neurotransmitters) but might not be the best long term solution for you (especially if you only need an increase in one of those NTs and not the other...the noreprinephine increase was what fuct me up and I felt cracked out). Remember that your brain is never 'permanent' and if levels are low now that doesnt mean that can't change. I would suggest forcing yourself to do the things that excite you again...Go out and try the experiences that used to make you feel the way that you feel now with hydro. You can coax your brain into returning to its 'natural' state.

A recent study showed that serotonin levels actually increase when the subject holds a pencil in their mouth...I need to examine this one further but my colleagues tell me that the pencil makes them use their "smile" muscles and tricks the brian into thinking it should be happy. neuroscience seems to be heading in a direction where our actions and thought DO change our brains so its in our power to 'encourage' emotions. The brain is a river, not a rock. 70% of our connectivity changes each day!

I hope that maybe this helps some people although I realize that its longwinded and i may be a little vague. Its been 5 days since Ive had any opiates - the 5 hardest days of my life - but these are some of the thoughts and things that have kept me strong. We all have tremendous potential...good luck!

[peacefulwarrior]

one more thing... Psychedelics have tremendous potential because they can rewire the brain in a way that supports a non-addictive lifestyle...Cary Grant took LSD over 100 times in psychotherapy sessions because this potential to rewire the brain out of depression, addictions etc was realized before the FDA made it illegal....Even the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous used LSD to help with addictions although not many AA people want you to know that. If you can't find the time and the safe setting for a long heavy extensive LSD trip (and remember that you can rewire your brain in a negative way too), there is some evidence that salvinorin A (salvia divinorum) can help with opiate addictions and it lasts a very short time. Of course none of this is accepted medicinally but there is a very large "psychedelic underground" with psychologists experimenting with entheogens in safe clinical settings. I won't 'suggest' anything but its certainly something imporant to consider (especially ibogaine)

[SuperJunky]

I found that tacking a 100 mg time release Tramadol twice a day makes an excelent antidepresant and can seriously help with a taper detox. After I was tacking them for about 5 weeks something started to feel not quite right. I don't know how to describe it but I decided to stop so broke the pills in half and took 50 mg twice a day for two days then 50 mg for two days then I stopped. I don't know if the taper was necesarry but tramadol takes many hours to affect me so if I found my self feeling w/drawal symptoms I'de have to wait 4-6 hours for the stuff to kick in.

[Samcastic]

NEVER MIX TRAMADOL AND 5-HTP. I take Tramadol nearly every night for depression, about 250-500mg. in 50-100mg. doses. One night I was more awake than normal, so I had taken a 50mg. 5-HTP. I experienced severe respiratory depression which made me afraid to fall asleep for fear of never waking up. Accompanying this was a series of mini-seizures throughout the night. Being an imperceptive strawbrain, I did not link the 5-HTP to these symptoms, and the next night, I took 5-HTP and Tramadol again. (I had taken 5-HTP before with other sleep-inducing substances, and it always served to relax and calm the mind.) Same crap happened. Maybe I just needed more 5-HTP with the Tramadol? Next night I took more 5-HTP with the Tramadol. Worse. Thought it had to be the Tramadol (strawbrain). Ended up going off of Tramadol for 6 months. Went back on Tramadol by itself. Wonderful for next 3 months. One night, took a 5-HTP with the Tramadol. Guess what happened. Strawbrain finally gets it. NEVER MIX TRAMADOL AND 5-HTP.

[exitwound]

have you guys tried taking 5htp tryptophan before? helps to normalize your serotonin levels (what all other anti-depressants make a feeble attempt at).

you can find it pretty much anywhere. any grocery store that carried vitamins should have it....

I've always had great results with 5-htp.

Similar neurotransmitter precursors include L-Tyrosine ---> Dopamine for example. There's a bunch of them out there. Easy to get, and IMHO better than the reuptake inhibitors 98% of the time.

[skeletontea]

I have to agree with you that using opiates to treat depression sounds like a one-way street to addiction. I've struggled with this as well. I have had what's known as "double depression" since I was seven. A lifetime of very strong emotional pain. I personally try to avoid using any kind of drug when I am in that deep inescapable depression (which is most of my waking hours.) I know if I use drugs as a crutch, I will come to rely on them, which I can not afford physically, mentally, or finnancially. I wish you luck, in whatever decision you choose to make.

[exitwound]

That's how I felt until this chronic pain condition spiraled out of control. For these levels of severe pain, I absolutely need the kind of drugs and dosages that would make an addict drool. They would have made me drool when I was playing around recreationally, even if they would have probably killed me then and I'd have been much too smart for that, even when I was so much younger and less worldly....

These days I may have to look anywhere and everywhere for tools to help with my pain/symptoms (legal or illegal don't matter; all that matters is that it's safe/cost-effective for me and my family)....but that isn't the same as somebody trying to cop the most euphoric score possible. I virtually never spend any significant amount of time outside of what I would describe the "agonized state" (pain levels of 8.5-10).

Anyhow, my real point is, to me....the main antidepressant property about opiates is that they give me hope that I can LIVE my life without the horror of extreme devastating pain.

[JunkYardSaint]

I think that you could find evidence that opiates can help with depression, but getting a doctor to prescribe an opiate 'off label' is going to be a challenge. In the case of methadone patients, addicition is not really an issue since they already are taking a daily dose, they are dependent on their methadone already. I personally have seen my depression take a huge turn for the better with an increase in my dose, and think that if doctors would prescribe methadone to methadone patients for depression they may find that they have a huge success on their hands, but we wouldn't want anyone with a drug problem to enjoy life now would we? That's just not the Amerikan way!!!

[GMorris]

Ahh, come on, everyone who is an addict knows that opiates are antidepressants in and of themselves. One thing I've always noticed is, when I'm in bad pain (my back usually) and I take a good sized dose of Morphine, I don't seem to get buzzed at all even if it is a whopping dose. The drug seems to do its job and take care of the pain first and foremost. But if I take the same whopping dose and am not hurting particularly bad, I get really good and buzzed and depressed I am NOT! That's the only thing that I think sucks about painkillers. If you are in pain, you won't get a good buzz but you'll stop hurting unless you take WAY more than you need for the pain. It would really be nice if you ALWAYS got buzzed AND got the pain relief when it's necessary. I guess the Good Lord designed it that way so that fiends will get addicted and have to suffer when they don't have the shit because they abused it. I'm guilty as hell, but I sure do appreciate having the pain relief when I need it!

[skeletontea]

Man, I really need to start paying attention to the dates listed for posts. I just responded to someone who's 2nd and last post was in 2004.:confused:

[katomic]

I found kanna to be a happy mood brightener 50-100mg of GOOD kanna is the best thing next to opiates good for anxiety too it’s a STRONG ssri with instant results, better and cheaper than Prozac
Taken in excess 200mg 500mg its really quite pleasurable.
I think it will may off soon and you will see it in GNC.

[exitwound]

I have mixed feelings about Kanna. Maybe my source wasn't good, but I didn't notice much that I enjoyed from it....

[candy]

There have been studies done on the effects of opiates in treating depression. Studies have shown that endorphins play a major role in affective disorders(depression). That some depressive disorders are caused by endorphin deficiencies, opiates then would work to treat depression.

Studies have also been done to show that those addicted to opiates also suffer from endorphin deficiencies. Makes sense to me. Those who lack natural endorphins would feel "normal", when using opiates.

There has been research done with Methadone in treating depression and those treated show marked improvement.

[Frozen]

The very last post (by Candy) said it best.

Know that you are not alone. Here you can find one post after another, confirming that for many of us, opioids are the only antidepressants that actually work: http://www.naabt.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=114

How about a thread on this exact topic at DB? ---> http://www.drugbuyers.com/freeboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=196682

Last but not least, my concise summary on the issue: http://www.prohibitionkills.blogspot.com

[jacky]

2 way street.

there is some talk that codeine for some reason seems to cause depression in some people at a higher rate than even more potent opiates.

I totally agree that opiates can be used for depression, for me I notice far fewer side effects from taking my opiates of choice than I did from effexor...which is my favorite addictive antideppressant (compare effexor and tramadol, VERY similiar compounds.) sexual side-effects and constipation, insomnia are the opiate side-effects that I have learned to live with.

effexor was about the same, sans the constipation, but effexor cost more, I had to have bi yearly liver work to take the stuff(at least from my internest) and the effexor tolerance curve is INSANE.
I notice less sexual side effects with opiates/opioids than effexor. with effexor I could not have an orgasm. with opiates my orgasm is put off for a little while longer than normal, but man, opiates can lend to some explosive orgasms if you know how to work around them.

[opiobsessed]

To the poster above me, you made a great blog and its too bad that all of us can't get together and do something about this country's stupid "war on drugs" it seems like this country just wants war and violence and is like hitler or something. I'm a minority because I was born with physical problems and also got major depression from both side of the family. To make matters worse my dad was a serious alcoholic and in order for me to finally clear up my depression I too had to turn to opiates which saved my life almost. I only happened upon opiates because of the major colon surgery I had, after realizing how great I was feeling on the opiates, I turned to fixating on how to have a constant opiated level in my body at all times. Just out of magic luck I happened to find peace and happiness through an online pharmacy with records required, back 2 years ago. I was almost able to keep myself opiated all the time unless I ran out of pills. That year I was more happy than I ever was in my whole life, I got more stuff done and made more money selling stuff on ebay than I ever did in my whole life. Plus I was a happy, joyfull person all the time to be around and I was always running around happy and doing stuff. Since I am disabled and not working, sadly a friend of my mom's husband found out and gave me a bunch of stuff to sell to sucker me into doing slave work all summer long since they were moving to a nice warm climate to retire. Knowing me and how I hate doing slave work and barely can do anything when depressed, all I can say is if I didn't have the vicodin that year, I would never have been able to come even close to doing as much work as I got done for this guy if it wasn't for the vicodin. He even said, how did you get all that energy all of a sudden? I simply said, I suffer a chemical imbalance since I was born and need drugs to cope with life and that's the only hope I have. Thank god I was near the end of working for him because he was an anti drug wine drinker himself and basically bigoting what I said when he was an alcoholic himself. I dont know why I brought this story up, I guess to prove that opiates are in fact the only alternative for some people like me who are almost totally unresponsive to those stupid ssri's or whatever they are called. Its sad though that we are forced to become addicts in order to get put on something that will help us, this is even worse for people like me who also have major health problems. Now I'm a known addict and to make it worse when I have to have surgery, I'm screwed like I just was from my very recent surgery. Imagine my situation, you've just beeen 24 hours without suboxone, you get wheeled into surgery, you wake up just short of being stiched up and on the way to recovery and you wake up in horrid pain and they can't or wont do anything about it because I'm an addict and they have to cover their asses so the stupid dea etc doesn't come storming in and shut the place down. If only I was born in the 50's or 60's.

[Frozen]

Glad you like my blog, opiobsessed, and... Uh oh... I feel a rant coming on! I can't restrain it now...

Did you notice how the 'War on Drugs' began, just as racial discrimination was quickly falling out of fashion in the U.S.? Shortly after the last racial segregationists gave up their fight in the late 60's, Nixon's modern-day "War on Drugs" began in 1971. He characterized drug abuse as "America's public enemy number one." No longer allowed to oppress American citizens based on skin color, they switched the focus of their aggressive sadism to us. In other words, prohibited drug users are the new n*ggers. That's not a word I ever use, but you all know it's true.

How can we get together to end drug prohibition? I don't see this happening with today's lazy, self-absorbed generation, but it could be done by copying the methods of those oppressed minorities who came before us. That means day after day of civil rights marches, mass civil disobedience, getting together by the thousands to chant "We shall overcome" until we're blue in the face... I think you get the picture. Yeah, I'm not holding my breath in expectation either.

[Papa Suspensum]

Rearden, thank you so much for the blog and links! The most compelling thread I have read on this and any other site, especially since I am here foremost because of my lifelong depression.

I am very interested in trying Bupe. I am currently on Effexor XR and have gotten off of cocaine and finally hydros. This crap is not working (as with all the other AD meds) and I only take it because after five hours it has a stimulant effect that keeps me from wanting to sink into a black hole. Side-effects are awful, and I had no side effects from opiates except the w/d's of course, and stomach bleeding from the APAP.

Anyway, you mentioned it is possible to be prescribed Suboxone even without having an addiction problem (the word "addiction" is such a stereotype term anyway). How would I go about this? http://www.suboxone.com/hcp/opioiddependence/suboxone_treatment.aspx Here, there is info stating that "urine drug screening should be performed to confirm opioid use" as part of the intake as to whether the person needs Bupe. Is this something the doc would normally do? I also read somewhere that the FDA doesn't enforce what a drug is used for, just that if it is used off-label, the doc is much more liable for a malpractice lawsuit.

Forgive me if I am asking a dumb question, but I have lurked this and many other opiate and AD websites in researching effective treatments and found nothing realistic until I read this.

[renton]

I'd be interested in that too. I suffer from depression and chronic back pain, and opiates seem to be the one thing that really helps and it doesent make me feel as crappy as my antidepressants do. Sadly bupe doesent seem to really be available here in canada yet for some reason, do you think methadone would be effective for depression to? since one thing theres no shortage of here is methadone programs.

[freedomclub]

methadone has definite anti-depressant qualities.

[Frozen]

Update: Here's a post from Papa Suspensum (http://forum.opiophile.org/member.php?u=1891) (aka PlanGuy) to NAABT:

http://www.naabt.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1305

"Hi everyone. Thanks for the encouragement Mary! I have read your posts and I just love how you speak to people.

Okay, I went in yesterday at 10:30, waited impatiently for 20 mins. (I hadn't had opiates in two days, so withdrawal was already set in) for the doc (psychiatrist) and gave him my story. I told him I had a friend who recovered from Oxy using Bupe and I wanted to try it, and that I had tried everything else to quit. He asked me a few questions about meds I have taken and a little past history, not near as much as I thought (more like a regular GP visit) and I left 20 mins. later with a script for 15/8mg Suboxone and some Seroquel samples (told him I needed something for sleep). I was so excited when I left! I spent a total of 1hr. there and 30 mins. later dissolved my first sub. I was so excited to be getting this that I didn't bother to ruin it and ask for Subutex (I can try that later).

At home 2 hours later I am feeling very dizzy and nauseous. The rest of the day I feel like I am getting the flu: sweating, can't think straight, frustrated, can't eat, can't sleep, and I itch all over. I am wondering if this s*** will work! Can't believe I doubted it, but remember the mindstate I was in and previous to that. Today I feel like a new person. I can't find anything wrong with my body (except some itchiness in various places, kinda weird) or mind, and I feel confident like I am on top of things for the first time. Life tastes GREAT!!!!

I look forward to being a part of this community and will contribute as much as I can as well as give updates on my condition. Thanks all, and ask any questions you like! I plan on writing a separate post later that describes my past, an overview of my health and how it has been affected by bupe, and my medication regimen. This will sum everything up so that you know me better.

Also, a special Thank You to Rearden Metal for leading me to bupe and to this website!

Alan"

______

Gotta love it when a plan comes together. :D

[Frozen]

I'd be interested in that too. I suffer from depression and chronic back pain, and opiates seem to be the one thing that really helps and it doesent make me feel as crappy as my antidepressants do. Sadly bupe doesent seem to really be available here in canada yet for some reason, do you think methadone would be effective for depression to? since one thing theres no shortage of here is methadone programs.

Hi renton, sorry for the delay- I hadn't seen your post until just now.
My understanding is that buprenorphine will be introduced to the Canadian market this fall.

While 'done may be better than nothing, I've read so many negative reports about this drug and its side effects... I just can't enthusiastically recommend it.

[renton]

Yeah bupe really seems like a cleaner better alternative to methadone. I hope the red tape will be done with soon so it can be sold in Canada. Canadian health care takes forever to approve drugs even if they have been approved in America for years. It makes me quite mad because allot of people cant get access to drugs that can help them.

[candyshop]

i wish like hell that "they"would perscribe opis for depression -i suffer from chronic pain as well but even before that the only,only thing that has made a dent in my lifelong depression is opis(and i have tried ALL alternatives)

[Papa Suspensum]

Anyone can fake a withdrawal. Even though I had started using opiates again and was in withdrawal when I went to the psych, I was planning on faking the symptoms so I would be sure I could have a good chance of getting subscribed the Bupe. Anyway, I went back to using Oxys and wanted to quit for good, especially since my [once] unlimited supply has now dryed up. It really can rid you of your cravings, at least it did for me, and now I have more ambition and motivation than I ever did on Oxys. No, I don't get quite the warm feeling I got with the full-agonist, but it allows you to think clearly and realize that it is a better drug for average working middle-class person. I now have great hopes for the future.

NEVER GIVE UP HOPE:)

[renton]

So was it your psychiatrist who prescribed the bupe? I hear that it is being used allot more now for treatment resistant depression. I know before antidepressants were invented that opiates were the main thing used to treat it, along with amphetamines and cocaine which I cant imagine were too good for the patients :( .

[Powdered Love]

I don't know if anyone may feel the same way about opiates as I do, but I have had strong feelings about opiates being used for depression since i first was introduced to them many years ago. It seems like my body/mind was programmed to need opiates... I know that may sound strange or like a cop out or something, but it's really the way i feel. I know that i never feel "normal" until i take opiates, and looking back on my life i never really knew what "normal" was until i started taking them. I was always slightly depressed as far back as i can remember and nothing has ever put me into a "normal" mindset like opiates do. I really don't take opiates to get "high", althought sometimes it's a nice side effect ;) , but i take them for the feeling of normalcy i get for a day or two afterwards. When i begin to slip back into depression, i just redose... Some may call this addiction, but i look at it in a totally different light. I look at opiates as another would look at Zoloft or Prozac, it's just a medicine i use to regulate my ups and downs. And, I have to admit, there are a lot fewer "downs" with opiates than there are with anything else i've tried. Withdrawl seems to be the worst of it. And, let's be honest, withdrawl is a common side effect of Paxil and a few other SSRIs. I also feel as if people who are like me, and I KNOW they are out there probably reading this right now, are givin a bad stimga by society. I mean, is what i do really wrong? How can i be judged by the chemicals that i take to regulate my body? I don't judge the person who takes Zoloft every day. I don't label him/her an "addict" even though they need their meds every day just as much as i need mine. So i guess my question is why? Why is our government so against opiates being used for anything other than physical pain? Isn't mental pain real? And if i'm not supposed to be using opiates why did God create me in the way that only opiates help with my depression? Oh well, just rambling now... I think you probably get my point by now.

[HistoryofMadness]

Did you notice how the 'War on Drugs' began, just as racial discrimination was quickly falling out of fashion in the U.S.? ..... In other words, prohibited drug users are the new n*ggers...

How can we get together to end drug prohibition? ... it could be done by copying the methods of those oppressed minorities who came before us. That means day after day of civil rights marches, mass civil disobedience, getting together by the thousands ...

Junkies are NOT "the new niggers." Have you been lynched? Can you vote? Does anyone burn crosses in your yard because you smoke pot? Do you drink from a separate water fountain? Any racism in prohibition (its there, I'm not denying) is incidental. Drug policy is its own issue.

I'm sure you're a nice person with good intentions. But the argument you laid out above shows how the drug culture has been listening to itself for too long. Preaching to the choir doesn't change a thing. Who needs all that shit from the '60's? There has been an information revolution!

Our war is one of information. We have to fight the stigma; drug users are NOT by nature morally weaker or of questionable character. We have so many different ways of disseminating information; we finally have a chance to frame the debate: Any truth to the stigma of drug users is the result of bad drug policy.

The world of politics and policy is changing. More can be done with less resources. A well-run organization could use media and communications to change perception at a rapid pace. Besides, most people have tried at least marijuana, and know the gov is full of shit. All they need is a reason:

Better drug policy will mean a safer society (less theft, homelessness, etc) and lots of revenue for the state (which means they can lower taxes).

But most are too lazy or fearful to get involved. The ones that do just piss and groan, and muddy the issue with BS like racism, and make the same old arguments (that never worked). The direct action they suggest wouldn't get a rule change in a nursing home.

Its out there for the taking, but our biggest problem isn't with the opposition, its with ourselves.

[Frozen]

I also feel as if people who are like me, and I KNOW they are out there probably reading this right now...

No question: Here you'll find a few hundred endogenous opioid deficient individuals, just like you & I:

http://www.naabt.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=114

Those things you know instictively about opiates and depression, have also been proven via the scientific method.

This isn't about 'getting high' to treat depression, as Freud believed could be accomplished with cocaine. It's about directly addressing the root cause of the depression (low endorphin levels), by ingesting a substance remarkably similar to what the body is missing. Did you know that the endorphins in your own brain have 48 times the analgesic potency of heroin?

My essay connects all the dots, and cites the few existing scientific papers which form the basis for my opinion:

www.Prohibition-Kills.com (http://www.Prohibition-Kills.com)

[Frozen]

Junkies are NOT "the new niggers." Have you been lynched?

-----> Well, not with a rope. A couple years ago I was literally dying of depression, and didn't yet know about bupe. I was desperately trying to score oxys (I instinctively KNEW oxy could help me, without realizing there was scientific data to back it up.), but I couldn't find a milligram of oxy to save my life (literally!) You have no idea how close I came to death at that point.

Can you vote? Does anyone burn crosses in your yard because you smoke pot? Do you drink from a separate water fountain?

------> If all of the things I've done for self-preservation were known to the prohibition enforcement thugs, I'd be in prison- along with the other 400,000 political prisoners who are currently locked up on prohibition violations. That would be even worse than what you've described above.

Who needs all that shit from the '60's? There has been an information revolution!

----->Now, you make a good point...

[VicodinLover]

SWIM think's that using opiates as an antidepressant is a great idea. They have thought this was a good idea for years. SWIM used to be a tech, but they got in trouble in the candy store. They are still farm Student and maybe interested in designing Drugs for a living...SWIM is also a newbie to this site, but when they found it they were on here hours on end, reading the facinating(sp) stories people had to tell. Hello people.

VL out

[slugbone]

SWIM think's that using opiates as an antidepressant is a great idea. They have thought this was a good idea for years. SWIM used to be a tech, but they got in trouble in the candy store. They are still farm Student and maybe interested in designing Drugs for a living...SWIM is also a newbie to this site, but when they found it they were on here hours on end, reading the facinating(sp) stories people had to tell. Hello people.

VL out

welcome brother opiophile.

[Zoop]

Opiates for depression? Hell yeah!

I took zoloft for ten years, at an avg. dose of 100mg/d. It was a little bit less when I first began. I actually upped it to 200mg/d for a month or two near the end.

And it worked. SSRI's are, contrary to what one of the bro's said earlier about opiates being "the only antidepressants that truly work", a very effective antidepressant. As are tricyclic antidepressants and even amphtetamines, when used sparingly - stuff like methylphenidate is actually more suited for antidepressant purpose if you wanna talk psychostimulant drugs for depression.

My thing is that SSRI drugs, although they are not for everyone, have helped millions and millions, if not billions of people, to get out from under that black cloud that is there for no fucking reason!

OPiates, on the other hand, have HUGE potential as antidepressant drugs too, but the only problem is that they have a stigma of being drugs of abuse. Now, it's not like people haven't used and abused opitaes for millenia, unlike SSRI's, but it's just a new field of endeavour.

I am confident that if it works, then there's $ to be made off it, and if there's $ to be made off it, then it will be explored.

Buprenorphine, I'd bet, would be the first one FDA (or some equivalent agency in some other country) give an indication for tmt of depression.

[CUBErt]

Our war is one of information. We have to fight the stigma; drug users are NOT by nature morally weaker or of questionable character. We have so many different ways of disseminating information; we finally have a chance to frame the debate: Any truth to the stigma of drug users is the result of bad drug policy.

The world of politics and policy is changing. More can be done with less resources. A well-run organization could use media and communications to change perception at a rapid pace. Besides, most people have tried at least marijuana, and know the gov is full of shit. All they need is a reason:

Better drug policy will mean a safer society (less theft, homelessness, etc) and lots of revenue for the state (which means they can lower taxes).

But most are too lazy or fearful to get involved. The ones that do just piss and groan, and muddy the issue with BS like racism, and make the same old arguments (that never worked). The direct action they suggest wouldn't get a rule change in a nursing home.

Its out there for the taking, but our biggest problem isn't with the opposition, its with ourselves.

Extremely well put.


As for opiates to treat depression, it depends. Some people get depressed when they realize they are addicted. Most probably get depressed during withdrawals, and many become more depressed in the weeks/months/years after they quit. Seems like a bit of a risk to prescribe opiates to treat depression because from then on the person is pretty much stuck with them. They risk having double the depression if for any reason their supply is lost/cut off. But I definitely agree that they can make you feel great enough to overcome depression and think through problems.

[Liptonbuddy]

I've been using opiates on and off for about 4 years now. I wouldn't say I'm normally "depressed", but not happy either. Anyways, when I'm on opiates, I feel like nothing can go wrong in the world. Also, I get a weird sense of motivation from it as well. Like I want to go out and do a bunch of stuff I know I could do if I just put my mind to it. Then the drugs wear off, and it's back to my lazy, unmotivated self. Like Cubert said, when you realize you are addicted, it can cause depression. You realize all you are doing is paying out your ass for temporary happiness, and even if you're high, you still have a bitter, depressed kind of feeling looming over your head. Then if you do become addicted, the withdrawals cause serious depression. When withdrawaling, since your brain is no longer producing it's own endorphins, you tend to feel worse than you ever have. If you knew you could have a permanant, life time supply of opiates for yourself, I'd probably say sure, but we all know that usually isn't the case.

[Seedy]

For most of my life my moods have fluctuated in about a 6 day cycle from feeling shitty and low for 2-3 days to feeling "normal" for 2-3 days - not really up and down, but more like down & bareable, if you see what I mean... In my late teens I discovered drugs, just weed & alcohol, then psychadelics & E, and got into the cycle of hanging out for getting wasted in the weekends, and smoking my way through the weeks. I couldn't hold down jobs and have spent more than half of the 12 years since I left school unemployed & depressed.

About 4 years ago a friend of mine showed me how to get high off poppy seeds. As he was a regular user at the time, and I'd never tried opiates, he gave me his usual dose, I got more ill than high. I thought I'd never try it again, but as I was a complete waster at the time, a few months later I decided to have another go. This time I had a small dose, and naturally it was quite pleasant. I actually found I was more functional on the seeds than straight. Since then I have gradually started taking them every day, and have gone from getting drunk most nights of the week, stoned 5-6 times a day, hanging out for the real drugs in the weekend, to being a responsible functional human. I now have a good job, am doing very well in my studies, and am basically living a normal life.:)

Sure my doses have been increasing and it is a bit of a bummer to be a "drug addict", but hey, opiates have helped me get my shit together so I guess what I'm saying is that they're a pretty effective anti-depressive for me.

[Maksene Delianan]

I just finished a book about President Lincoln's melancholy. I found it interesting that opiates were prescribed to him for depression, as it was a common treatment before the days of SSRIs and Tricyclics. Also, the leading mental health doctor at that time was himself depressed for about a year after losing his family in a fire. He found that opiates were the only thing that got him through, and was able to quit after a couple years by willpower. He was a strong supporter of opiates for depression for the rest of his life.

My opinion about why doctors are no longer engaging in the process of prescribing opiates is the issue of drug companies losing their patents. When drug companies lose their patents after a certain amount of years (and opiates have been around for soooo long), such drugs are no longer pushed on doctors to prescribe. Drug companies are in the business of making money, not neccessarily truly helping people. Newer drugs are always better in the minds of not so savvy doctors, despite of how unhealthy and risky they are compared to opiates. The only problem with pure opiates (ie, no tylenol etc. added) is that they are addicting. Which leads you to the question of whether addiction in itself is really a problem if it adds to the quality of one's life and does not do any known biological damage.

And yes, I agree with LIPTONBUDDY that it is true that withdrawl is hard and tends to loom about. The only thing is that one should not have to withdraw unless they want to. They should be perscribed as easily as Paxil or Effexor is (although I do think that SSRI's are prescribed a little too easily), as a daily medication, on a lifetime basis and on a medical, monitored, logically acceptable need-based regimin. Paxil etc., have awful withdrawls, but they are totally actually pushed on people. Anyway, this is just an observation of mine of the all too common practice of hypocrisy.

The second opinion I have regarding this issue is that it has been proven that only 10 percent of the population is able to feel better from the use of opiates mentally. Therefore, the backlash currently going on against the use of opiates may very possibly be a case of the many against the few. When people don't understand something themselves, they become afraid or weary of it. Because most people don't get anything out of opiates, they figure why should anyone else be allowed to, and that it must be a negative thing, whether they actually know it is or not.

For example, it is known but seldom mentioned that SSRI's damage the mind's ability to think creatively. Not to mention the suicidal side effects that have been noted in teenagers and children taking them. The drug companies simply play this down by saying that an increased rate of suicide is only applicable to young people. I have no idea what is so very different about a teenager's brain and an adult's brain that would cause suicidal effects only in one but not the other in every single incident. Chemistry is so complex that one cannot simply explain away a higher rate of suicide in someone who is 17 but not in someone who is 22. Not to mention all of the other factors, including that drug companies explain the difference by saying that after someone is 20 they commit suicide due to depression itself and not the drug. Rather fishy.

All I know, is that SSRI's have never done a thing for me except give me some pretty nasty withdrawls. Why is it okay to take these but not opiates when the withdrawl is truly just as bad and the side effects are worse? Because they are newer, and newer is always better (sarcastic tone). My doctor put me on Lexapro, a new generation anti-depressent and 2 days later I was convinced that the police must be after me over something bad I had done in my past but had forgotten about. It was a horrible time, and I can guarantee you that if I had been put on tramadol or hydro instead of Lexapro, instead of major paranoia, I would have been feeling a sense of well being and perspective.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. I think it's important for people who understand these indescrepencies to educate the educated sometime; when the educated are ignorant regarding an important issue and beleive something just because it is a popular belief at the time, it is a very scary situation.

[sobermeth]

I agree with many of the posts on this thread. It is a very slippery slope to use opiates as a form of anti-depressant. However, methadone can stabilize those of us who have a dual-diagnosis of depression/anxiety and addiction. Methadone in my case has shown marked improvement in my cravings for other opiates and has controlled my depression. I would be wary of any other opiate, especially the short acting ones, in dealing with depression.

Good luck to everyone who suffers from this dual-diagnosis pain.

[Maksene Delianan]

I agree that short acting opiates should not be used for the treatment of depression. Controlled release would be best.

[Frozen]

I agree that short acting opiates should not be used for the treatment of depression. Controlled release would be best.

I've put thousands of hours of research into this. IMO, buprenorphine (Suboxone, or preferably; Subutex) is currently the best known solution to the torment of refractory depression due to an endogenous opioid deficiency. Buprenorphine has some very unique advantages over other opioids:


No tolerance build up. Your ideal dose on the first day is the same as your dose on the 1,000th day. Often, it is actually less.
Bupe is non-euphoric. There is no high at all for the vast majority of bupe patients. However, the medication still compensates for (depression caused by) an endogenous opioid deficiency, by providing the body with a substance which is nearly identical to the peptide which is lacking.
Can be legally and indefinitely prescribed to depression patients under the guise of 'treating an opiate addiction problem'. No need to fake pain to obtain the scripts, and no humiliating daily ordeal waiting in lines for hours, as with methadone.
Bupe is relatively safe, as there is a 'ceiling effect'. Above a certain level (usually 32 mg.), consuming more bupe will do absolutely nothing to you. No American has ever died of a buprenorphine OD. A handful of French patients have ODed, but only because they abused their medication by injecting it and combining it with benzos.

[Frozen]

Imagine this: You're having mechanical difficulties with your car, which is unable to drive any faster than 20 MPH due to a broken transmission. You take the car in to a mechanic, explain the problem to him, and he fixes the problem by replacing your tires with new ones. Needless to say, the transmission problem hasn't been resolved at all, so you take your car back to the mechanic. Once again, he completely ignores the root of the problem (transmission), and instead he installs yet another different brand of tires.

You get fed up with the useless 'help' of this mechanic, so you try taking your car to other mechanics in your city- yet every single one of them is blindly fixated on tires. All they know how to do is replace your tires, which of course does not help you at all.

This is exactly how medical orthodoxy currently deals with depression. "The problem MUST originate with a deficiency of serotonin/dopamine/norepinephrine (tires), it couldn't possibly be caused by something else, like an endogenous opioid deficiency (transmission). Therefore, all we will do for you, is prescribe one SSRI/SNRI after another (new tires) as we blindly and incorrectly fixate on the same old three neurotransmitters."

Then there's the creative mechanic who comes up with a different idea for fixing the car. Instead of replacing the tires, he patches up the old tires and fills them up with more air. This is the medical professional who suggests St. John's wort and 5-HTP, which can only boost... you guessed it- serotonin.

Watch TV for a couple hours and you'll probably see quite a few antidepressant commercials. The cruel joke is that every single one of those commercials is just pitching yet another serotonin/dopamine/norepinephrine re-uptake inhibitor product. "Zoloft didn't work? You're still dying of depression? Here, try some Paxil. It does the exact same thing as zoloft, but hey- give it a shot."

Medical orthodoxy's current neurotransmitter fixation will go down in history as one of the science's greatest blunders of all time. In the future, buprenorphine will be commonly accepted as a legitimate antidepressant. The only question is: How many more endogenous opioid deficient patients must suffer and die until then?

www.Prohibition-Kills.com (http://www.Prohibition-Kills.com)

[Zoop]

I agree mostly with the points raised by Mr. Rearden M.

The transmission/tire metaphor is apt. BUT - some cars still need new tires ! You cannot completely ignore all of the research that's been done which proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that deficiencies in 5HT or NE or DA play a huge role in depression, if not all kinds of mental illnesses. To suggest that all of the scientific research that's been done over the past 50 years, demonstrating a strong link between the arylethyamine neurotransmitters and mood disorders is due to a conspiracy to sell drugs is pure dross. The fact is that SSRI's, tricyclics, dopamine boosting drugs like bupropion, even amphetamines (although they have some significant drawbacks in this regard) are very effective treatments for depression. There is always a group of patients who will not respond to these treatments no matter what, and these are the ones who likely are experiencing depression due to some cause other than not enough 5HT receptors, or 5HT receptors that are not sensitive enough or because of simply not enough 5HT being produced in the neurones.

Now, don't get me wrong, those drug companies definitely want to sell drugs, and they will do what it takes to boost sales, and if that means pushing zoloft or paxil, for example, on people who may not benefit from them or to people who flat out don't need them, then they'll do that.

But if, as you suggest, the drug companies are just out to sell more drugs, then why wouldn't they push buprenorphine or some similar partial opioid agonist to treat depression if there's $ to be made doing it? I think it's just because the research is still in its infancy in that regard. You'll see plenty of drug pushin' goin on once it becomes the status quo that partial opioid agonists are useful for treating depression too.

In the past few years, especially with buprenorphine, there has been a big resurgence of long-abandoned alternative hypotheses of depressive etiologies, in particular that caused by endogenous opioid deficiency. Buprenorphine has been proven to improve depressive symptoms in cases of depression refractory to treatment with SSRI's or tricyclics.

To conclude, all I'm sayin' is that I agree that buprenorphine (and likely some other partial opioid agonists) are going to be accepted treatments of depression (and probably anxiety too) in the near future, but that you cannot simply assume the focus on 5HT and other neurotransmitters is because of some conspiracy or some other mean-spirited thing. The reason there's been a focus on that stuff is because the science has shown that there is a definite relationship between these neurotransmitters and mood disorders.

[Frozen]

Zoop- We don't disagree at all!

Of course some cars do need new tires- I've never implied otherwise. From my site (linked above):

"Depression can result from a deficiency/over reuptake of serotonin, norepinephrine, or dopamine.Depression can also result from a deficiency /over reuptake of your endogenous opioids (endorphins/dynorphins/enkephalins)."

I've also elaborated on this point elsewhere ( http://tinyurl.com/oo9f3 )

"Once again, I give you tomorrow’s scientific knowledge- TODAY:

Type A Depression results from a neurotransmitter deficiency, and can be remedied via the neurotransmitter reuptake inhibitors (Zoloft, Paxil, Welbutrin, Effexor, etc...)

Type B Depression results from an endogenous opioid (Endorphins, et. al.) deficiency, and can be remedied with opioid medication. Out of these, Buprenorphine is usually the best choice.

Type C, or Combination Depression results from both neurotransmitter AND endogenous opioid deficiencies. Type C depression patients require neurotransmitter reuptake inhibitors in combination with opioid medication.

Modern medical orthodoxy recognizes only Type A depression, and remains widely ignorant of the other two varieties. This ignorance results in tens of thousands of suicides per year, while ruining millions of additional lives.

Fortunately, within a decade or two, my assertions will become common medical knowledge. Suicide rates across the developed world will plummet."

___________________

But if, as you suggest, the drug companies are just out to sell more drugs, then why wouldn't they push buprenorphine or some similar partial opioid agonist to treat depression if there's $ to be made doing it? I think it's just because the research is still in its infancy in that regard.

Suboxone & Subutex were developed under orphan drug status.
Therefore, U.S. government regulations prevent the marketing of sub for any purpose other than opiate detox/maintainence until 2009.

But it gets worse. Check this out: http://www.clinicaltrial.gov (http://www.clinicaltrial.gov)
There are now 1008 upcoming and ongoing clinical trials investigating depression, yet not one single attempt to study the antidepressant properties of opioids!
It's just one freaking SSRI/Bupropion trial after another.They all have their blinders on. I'm sure the 10,000th study on the effects (or lack thereof) of SSRI's on depression will be just as useful to humanity as a continuation of the Bodkin experiment- Not.

I'm not saying there's some kind of sinister conspiracy at work here- The relevant medical researchers could just be suffering from a serious case of head-up-own-ass syndrome. Or more likely, the nanny-state has an active hand in suppressing narcotics research.

[renton]

I agree opiates can be a great antidepressant, the whole point of antidepressants is to help people get back to normal productive lives. Now I cant speak for anyone else but when I'm on oxy or whatever I get damn lazy for the most part and tend to spend my day either, a)thinking about getting high or b)trying to get more oxy so i can get high, lol. I think the problem is they almost work too good to ease the pain of depression so that your so happy just sittin there nodin away you dont feel like going to work or whatever. But thats just me I dont know about other people. Plus I imagine if you were on something that doesent give you a high like Sub then it would probably be different.

[HistoryofMadness]

I've put thousands of hours of research into this. IMO, buprenorphine (Suboxone, or preferably; Subutex) is currently the best known solution to the torment of refractory depression due to an endogenous opioid deficiency. Buprenorphine has some very unique advantages over other opioids:

No tolerance build up. Your ideal dose on the first day is the same as your dose on the 1,000th day. Often, it is actually less.
Bupe is non-euphoric. There is no high at all for the vast majority of bupe patients. However, the medication still compensates for (depression caused by) an endogenous opioid deficiency, by providing the body with a substance which is nearly identical to the peptide which is lacking.
Can be legally and indefinitely prescribed to depression patients under the guise of 'treating an opiate addiction problem'. No need to fake pain to obtain the scripts, and no humiliating daily ordeal waiting in lines for hours, as with methadone.
Bupe is relatively safe, as there is a 'ceiling effect'. Above a certain level (usually 32 mg.), consuming more bupe will do absolutely nothing to you. No American has ever died of a buprenorphine OD. A handful of French patients have ODed, but only because they abused their medication by injecting it and combining it with benzos.

You should do some more research, regarding max dosing of bupe. I'm definitely agreeing with you on your points, but there is a tolerance build-up, that's a fact. That's why you CAN get 'high' (although its not as euphoric as a pure agonist) but after a while of daily use the high goes away. That's a fact I know because I've been on subs a few times.

Also there is a level, past which buprenorphine actually does affect all three dopamine receptors. This level is also the level past which bupe can actually cause depression. I can get you scientific work / evidence of this if you like.Z

Type A Depression results from a neurotransmitter deficiency, and can be remedied via the neurotransmitter reuptake inhibitors (Zoloft, Paxil, Welbutrin, Effexor, etc...)

Type B Depression results from an endogenous opioid (Endorphins, et. al.) deficiency, and can be remedied with opioid medication. Out of these, Buprenorphine is usually the best choice.

Type C, or Combination Depression results from both neurotransmitter AND endogenous opioid deficiencies. Type C depression patients require neurotransmitter reuptake inhibitors in combination with opioid medication.

Modern medical orthodoxy recognizes only Type A depression, and remains widely ignorant of the other two varieties. This ignorance results in tens of thousands of suicides per year, while ruining millions of additional lives.

Fortunately, within a decade or two, my assertions will become common medical knowledge. Suicide rates across the developed world will plummet."


The 'types' of depression you have mentioned don't really correspond with the science that I've read. . . I'd like to see more actual research / results, or science, as opposed to more anecdotal evidence.

I also wanted to mention that its been stated rather openly that scientists aren't really sure how antidepressants work, and which chemicals they work with (and more importantly which one they don't affect). Furthermore, its a little more complicated than the way you've outlined it. I'd really like to see what science your working with... are you a psychologist / psychiatrist, or do you work in a lab?

And one last thing, that I have to say, is that most people commit suicide when they are just starting the process of recovering from depression. This is because people have been thinking about death for a long time, but haven't had the 'gumption' if you will to actually do it. The first few days/weeks of recovery is when the patient is still psychologically depressed, but the chemistry is starting to change, and therefore the patient finally has the "get up and go" to do what they've been thinking and planning for so long.

In other words, suicide is often the result of medications working and a patient not being in effective therapy. Preventing suicides will come from better understanding of the psychology of depression, not the chemistry. Suicide is often the result of an effective medication.

Finally without accusing you of anything, I can't help but think either you're working with a really good team of scientists at a really bigtime university or organization, or you're having a bit of a manic episode. Hope that helps and not offends. But if you are working with a great team with a huge grant or something, I'd really like to see you start a new thread with a discussion and some sources or results.

[mikells43]

NEVER MIX TRAMADOL AND 5-HTP. I take Tramadol nearly every night for depression, about 250-500mg. in 50-100mg. doses. One night I was more awake than normal, so I had taken a 50mg. 5-HTP. I experienced severe respiratory depression which made me afraid to fall asleep for fear of never waking up. Accompanying this was a series of mini-seizures throughout the night. Being an imperceptive strawbrain, I did not link the 5-HTP to these symptoms, and the next night, I took 5-HTP and Tramadol again. (I had taken 5-HTP before with other sleep-inducing substances, and it always served to relax and calm the mind.) Same crap happened. Maybe I just needed more 5-HTP with the Tramadol? Next night I took more 5-HTP with the Tramadol. Worse. Thought it had to be the Tramadol (strawbrain). Ended up going off of Tramadol for 6 months. Went back on Tramadol by itself. Wonderful for next 3 months. One night, took a 5-HTP with the Tramadol. Guess what happened. Strawbrain finally gets it. NEVER MIX TRAMADOL AND 5-HTP.



tramadol put me into a grand mull sezure, i was taking it for years and like a year ago started to use very high doses daily by the time i stoped taking it a month ago i was up to like 30-50 a day at least to be "good " and not dope sick. that nite i had a grand mull sezure allmost died. so its the fucking tramadol doing it lol. its the devil . antidepressant use for tramadol fuck it made me more depressed and i couldnt piss right. any opiate is gonna make u undepressed cause if u are hooked ur happy when ur body gets dope, think about it. the denyal is getting lots of u guys in here. ur reading deep as fuck at shit thats never gonna be approved, hell ull be dead before most of the shit is looked at, prob dead as a direct result of ur disease, addiction. thats no shit. snap out of it pow. i donno im just glad im where im at today thanks u guys are making me think alot and im glad i didnt go that far in my addiction. lol but theres that yet. i can ocme on here and read then ill go god damn i dont wanna get high and be like that, and as for adhd it fucking zones u in . beleive me i sat online chewed snuff and snorted oxy for years and my adhd went out the door cause i was like computer must have now and ozned in so sure fi im overmedicated andonline no add cause im happy and fucked up. not today tho. ill pray for the ones still suffering

[Frozen]

HistoryofMadness, all of the answers to your personal questions can be found on my website.
I've posted the URL here repeatedly.

[HistoryofMadness]

HistoryofMadness, all of the answers to your personal questions can be found on my website.
I've posted the URL here repeatedly.

none of the questions are personal.

if by 'repeatedly' you mean 3 times, then ok, i think i know what you are talking about. but i'm not sure sourcing your info with another of your own writings is what i meant.

i am also curious about who is responsible for the opiods.com site that you base much of your information on... and I'm also curious if you are able to read all of the articles that are referenced, or just the synopsis?

and i hope you understand the reason I'm asking these questions: there is a shitload of information on the internet, and much of it is not accurate. And I've seen, at least in my profession, someone will build a theory on shady information and extrapolations, without much training, and then someone will come along behind them and do the same thing. the result is predictably catastrophic to someone who needs the most accurate information they can find, and end up with a group of sources sourcing each other.

I'm not accusing you of anything; but on the contrary, I'm trying to carry on the conversation you've started, and see which ideas may live and which may die. To me, good ideas work through the process of criticism and questions without failing.

Besides, depression is a serious thing, especially for the reason you gave (suicide), and I'd hate to see someone come here, and read something unfounded (if it is) and then go get hooked on dope because a bunch of jukies (me included) had some theories that did nothing more than justified an addiction and made it feel right. does that make sense?

anyway, based on your reaction, you must not appreciate my questions, because you didn't answer them and they aren't answered on your site either. if i'm pissing you off, i apologize in advance, but would still like to see a little solid science behind the theory you outlined.

[Frozen]

HistoryofMadness, it would help if you'd let me know which part of my writings you dispute.
Everything I've said, I have just taken from what is already known, and drawn lines to connect it all.
Your arguments to date amount to little more than- "Oh yeah? Says who?"
Can you be more specific?

In the brain of every human can be found natural chemicals called the endogenous opioids (endorphins, dynorphins, enkephalins.) Is this the part you dispute?
These endogenous opioids are molecularly nearly identical to 'real' opioids like oxycontin & buprenorphine. Is this the part you dispute?
Medical orthodoxy currently suffers from a neurotransmitter obsession. They recognize the vital role of endorphins in emotional wellbeing, yet completely ignore them when 'searching' for potential antidepressants. That so called 'antidepressant' you just saw advertised on your TV is yet another neurotransmitter reuptake inhibitor, just like the rest of them. Is this the part you dispute?
These neurotransmitter reuptake inhibitors don't always fix the problem. In fact, multiple clinical trials have shown them to be about equal to placebo. Is this the part you dispute?
Buprenorphine on the other hand, has been clinically proven (Bodkin experiment) to be of great benefit in treating depression, in more cases than not. Is this the part you dispute?
Hundreds of personal testimonials, all consistent with my thesis, can be found at the links provided on my site. Is this the part you dispute?If I told you who I am and what I've accomplished, you'd say I'm lying- so there's no point in going through all that. Opioids.com (and hedweb.com) were written by a guy named David Pearce, a brilliant & visionary man with no formal credentials. Any more questions?

www.Prohibition-Kills.com

[HistoryofMadness]

HistoryofMadness, it would help if you'd let me know which part of my writings you dispute.
Everything I've said, I have just taken from what is already known, and drawn lines to connect it all.
Your arguments to date amount to little more than- "Oh yeah? Says who?"
Can you be more specific?
In the brain of every human can be found natural chemicals called the endogenous opioids (endorphins, dynorphins, enkephalins.) Is this the part you dispute?
These endogenous opioids are molecularly nearly identical to 'real' opioids like oxycontin & buprenorphine. Is this the part you dispute?
Medical orthodoxy currently suffers from a neurotransmitter obsession. They recognize the vital role of endorphins in emotional wellbeing, yet completely ignore them when 'searching' for potential antidepressants. That so called 'antidepressant' you just saw advertised on your TV is yet another neurotransmitter reuptake inhibitor, just like the rest of them. Is this the part you dispute?
These neurotransmitter reuptake inhibitors don't always fix the problem. In fact, multiple clinical trials have shown them to be about equal to placebo. Is this the part you dispute?
Buprenorphine on the other hand, has been clinically proven (Bodkin experiment) to be of great benefit in treating depression, in more cases than not. Is this the part you dispute?
Hundreds of personal testimonials, all consistent with my thesis, can be found at the links provided on my site. Is this the part you dispute?If I told you who I am and what I've accomplished, you'd say I'm lying- so there's no point in going through all that. Opioids.com (and hedweb.com) were written by a guy named David Pearce, a brilliant & visionary man with no formal credentials. Any more questions?

www.Prohibition-Kills.com (http://www.Prohibition-Kills.com)

oh yeah, says who? that's what you think I mean when I ask for science instead of theoretical talking and basing ideas on ideas?

by the way, bupe has NOT been theoretically proven to do shit with depression, its been suggested that more studies are needed, but the possibility is there that it helps with depression.

i just find it hard to believe that you're attempting to dispute many years of scientific data with a bulletized list of thoughts that may or may not lead down a path.

I am in no way suggesting that opiates aren't a treatment for depression, i mean, shit, euphoria is the opposite of depression, right? well, not exactly, but unfortunately it takes science to get to the details, and it seems you have an aversion to that.

i'm not interested in 'formal' credentials, friend, and opiates.com isn't the best and most well thought-out site I've seen, although I'll agree that its intelligent work (as is yours, and no one's disputing that)...

its like trying to explain quantum physics without math, friend, it can't be done. you can read and read and read, but if you don't know the math, you don't know the theory.

and for clarity, I'm not disputing your claims, I'm questioning your methods. does that make sense to you? you're the first 'scientist' i've ever met that didn't enjoy a challenge...

this feels like an absurd waste of time.

oh, and if you're wondering what I'm questioning, if you haven't caught the part about real science yet, just think "source, source, source" eh?

[OhJoy]

Hello,
I'm so relieved to have found this place. I've been living in shame for a while, but i'm starting to come to the realization that I'm better using opiates then if not. I'd be dead if it wasn't for them. I don't want to go into a long thing about how I got to the point I'm at ....but I do want to say that I suffered from crippling depression all my life. I've seen the gamut of docs and been on many antidepressants. I was close to throwing in the towel and then I needed a root canal. I was introduced to a miracle drug. LorTab. I felt like living for the first time in my life. The rest is now history. I made a decision that I was going to self medicate. And my life is WONDERFUL now. I was suicidal a few months ago. Now I can live without the weight of dread crushing my life.

I'm so happy to have found a place where using is accepted. If anyone knew what I did to turn my life around they would have me admitted. so Shhhh.... you guys are the only ones who know.

[candyshop]

welcome to you -yours is a familiar story round here -you will find a wealth of info on treating depression w/opiates -search the threads,read the rules meet the folks and have a good time -you will,i am sure find this group to be lively,intelligent ,commpassionate and cool(except for the stupid dorky assholes)
have fun

[antigonemuse]

welcome to the site, and like Candy said, you will find yours a common story. Be advised that newbies do sometimes succumb to some hazing in the begining...

Many of us support the theory of opiates to treat despression, and if you decide to do some site searches, you'll find a number of threads addressing the issue. I hope this community provides a haven for your lifestyle, no need for shame. We have all degrees of addiction here and various reasons for coming to these decisions in our life.

I am personally glade you found us, and this outlet.

Peace... You'll find many wonderful personalities here.

Hard works good, Hard works fine... But first take care of head

[Ragdoll]

Welcome; it's really good to meet you OJoy. Sure 'nuf, you've found a place where the pain of depression is well understood.

Peace,
Rags

p.s. Here's a little blue elephant for you: http://clicksmilies.com/s0105/tiere/animal-smiley-041.gif

[Narkotikon]

Welcome to the poppy field, OhJoy. I'm sorry to hear that you've suffered with depression for so long, like everyone has mentioned, it's quite common around here. Never feel ashamed or afraid or embarassed to ask a question. That's how you'll find help. No question is stupid, it may just be more common than most. Again, welcome.

I'm assuming that you've tried the doctors, and the anti-depressants, therapy, and all of the "traditional" approaches. They are the best our modern science has so far, yet it's just shit, espeically for most people here. I've tried them and couldn't stand most for one reason or another. Opiates are the only things that make me feel normal. By normal I mean outgoing, talkative, energetic, productive, able to get out of bed and face the world. In short, opiates make me the person I feel I could have been had some other things not have happened to me. Again, I'm sure you feel the same way.

I don't mean to take the focus off of you and your introduction, so welcome. I wish you the best that we have to offer :-)

[shadowbox]

Glad you're finding relief from your depression - living with it is not living at all. Been there. You might check out info on Buprenorphine (Subutex/Suboxone) and refractory depression, i.e., depression that does not respond to traditional treatments. Bupe has been used to treat depression for many years. Hooking up with a Sub doc can be easy depending on where you live, and Sub is way cheaper than hydro and easier/legal to get.

Anyway, all best....

[flipside]

I think you will find just knowing others have been where you have been and just having a safe place to vent will help alot. Welcome

[KiloByte]

Hello,
I'm so relieved to have found this place. I've been living in shame for a while, but i'm starting to come to the realization that I'm better using opiates then if not. I'd be dead if it wasn't for them. I don't want to go into a long thing about how I got to the point I'm at ....but I do want to say that I suffered from crippling depression all my life. I've seen the gamut of docs and been on many antidepressants. I was close to throwing in the towel and then I needed a root canal. I was introduced to a miracle drug. LorTab. I felt like living for the first time in my life. The rest is now history. I made a decision that I was going to self medicate. And my life is WONDERFUL now. I was suicidal a few months ago. Now I can live without the weight of dread crushing my life.

I'm so happy to have found a place where using is accepted. If anyone knew what I did to turn my life around they would have me admitted. so Shhhh.... you guys are the only ones who know.

I'd hate to be around when you run out though. Treating depression with opiates will only lead to severe addiction and then you're really fucked. That said therres nothing wrong with having fun to feel better for now just be careful.

To me I try to reserve the opiates for fun but marijuana is excelent at treating my depression. Have you tried that?

[tptptp]

It's actually been proven that people who smoke weed full time and then quit are subject to severe depression for about 6 months...I'm sure not everyone gets is badly, but it is there...

Opiates are great for depression but IF you can manage to chip, you'll be much better off......eventually the cost,tolerance etc. etc. etc. will become depressing for you too, not to burst your bubble...SWIM is a hypocrite after all

[Duckfeet]

Hello,
I'm so relieved to have found this place. I've been living in shame for a while, but i'm starting to come to the realization that I'm better using opiates then if not. I'd be dead if it wasn't for them. I don't want to go into a long thing about how I got to the point I'm at ....but I do want to say that I suffered from crippling depression all my life. I've seen the gamut of docs and been on many antidepressants. I was close to throwing in the towel and then I needed a root canal. I was introduced to a miracle drug. LorTab. I felt like living for the first time in my life. The rest is now history. I made a decision that I was going to self medicate. And my life is WONDERFUL now. I was suicidal a few months ago. Now I can live without the weight of dread crushing my life.

I'm so happy to have found a place where using is accepted. If anyone knew what I did to turn my life around they would have me admitted. so Shhhh.... you guys are the only ones who know.


I was first put in V.A. psyche wards with "combat neurosis" and they were trying all kinds of horrible severe meds, like thorazine and crap to cheer me up...and over the next thirty years in and out of nut wards all over the damn place, plus prison, and more jails that I can count...and I finally figured out, what you put words on, is that nothing, but nothing, ever gave me that sense of ease and comfort like opiates had done for me always.

But then you bounce into the other side of that coin: that what I like most, I'm not allowed to have. It started with heroin, and it will probably end with heroin, if I'm lucky, but in between I've found--to varying degrees--that all opiates produce the effect--with me--that anti-depressants are *supposed* to produce, and don't.

If I can't have heroin, or dilaudids, then I make do (now I'm on methadone, which I dislike) but I'll probably always be on some opiate or another. the world being what it is, I now have two felony convictions, and the state I'm in has no sense of humor, when it comes to *three* time loosers, so I'm in a tough situation. Consequences are severe, but I still miss my dope...Hydros don't do it for me, anymore. Nor do most of the lower level opiates: codeine, darvocets, etc.

I'd move to a country that allows me on heroin maintenance, since I have my own income, but it would be real hard on my Mom. On the other hand, it'ed be even harder, if she had to start making the monthly treks up to visit it me in whatever slammer I was in...



Welcome to you.

[AWOL]

I 100% agree with you about treating depression with opiates. It is hard however to find a balance, I'm still working on it. Addiction is a harsh reality. But I'd much rather have this life than any of my other options. Welcome.

[opiobsessed]

Best wishes to you Ohjoy,
you and me are in exactly the same boat, i'm 35 y/o and been battling depression since I was 15 or 16. Long story short my life went completely downhill when I developed chronic ulcerative colitis at 19. I was only using lame alcohol to battle depression, been on every antidepressant out there, until I found magic hope in opiates through the many surgeries I"ve had through the years.

Since I started fulltime on opiates 4 years ago I have been so happy and able to enjoy everything in life and got more stuff done in one year than I had in my whole life. Sad thing is, I'm not rich and on disability so for now I have to maintain on 200mg methadone daily and some valium to keep me calm, so far things are working pretty good.

One big word of advice to you is learn the easy way unlike me, dont go too wild with opiates, you dont want to get a huge tolerance built up so quick like I did, goodluck.

[seagullsuber]

Life is great on opiates - especially the good ones. I have to agree with Kilobyte and Tptp - take it easy or your life will be 3 times worse in 3 years or so. I hang out in the bupenephrine forum so I am new to this hydro.

I remember when I first fell in love with percocet - I had finger surgery and was sent home with 50 percs with one refil. It took 3 days of taking 7 a day to get me hooked (not like i was hooked 3 years later but dependent) I eventually graduated to OC and then on to Bupe. If I had a H connect, I would of made a stop there first.

Im just saying be careful - you can do it (treat depression with opiates) but you have to be smart about it.

[Beautifully_Broken]

i actually found this place because i was doing research for my pshrink for usig opiates as antidepressants

have been dealing w/ depression and severe anxiety since i was 11, but i can recall feeling "not quite right" as young as 8. I've have tried pretty much everything on the market in some cocktail or another, and nothing has ever made me feel "ok" only lessened the symptoms somwhat (some of them, some of them just made me worse) the only thing ive ever known to aleviate all my symptoms and make me feel normal was opiates, specifically hydrocodone. On them, i feel like a complete person, im not only happier but more productive and organized, similar the effect that adderall has on ADHD people.

Which raises another question: the pharmaceudical industry makes bilions a year based on the idea that ppl have a deficiency of seratonin in their brains. W/ drugs like Wellbutrin, Effexor and Cymbalta, they're adressing more than one chemical. And they acknowledge that amphetemines work for ADD and ADHD. So whats so far fetched about needing to give the opiate receptors in ppl a little extra help? There is a small movement now testing suboxone as an antidepressant, but it hasnt gotten much large scale attention yet.

This method is not w/o its drawbacks; the depression when i run out is horrendous, and i get sick of the desperate scramble for more. The truth of my life is, opiates are the only thing that has given me any real desire to live and prosper, plain and simple. there's got to be a balance between antidepressants and full scale addiction, and i intend to keep trying to find the awnser, probably w/ a lot of setbacks, but nothing was ever achieved by giving up, or somthing inspirational like that

[prettypoppy]

I agree completely, BB. I have always known there was something "atypical" about my depression. Good ord, I literally took every darn antidepressant in the known universe, to no avail. the only thing that ever helped was opiates. I have since learned a great deal about endorphine deficiency syndrome. I really believe that the initial response we have to opioid drugs is pretty predictive of whether or not there is an endorphine problem. If we feel a bit drowsy and kinda nauseous and that's it--we are probably normal in the endorphin dept. BUT--if we have that big surge of long lost energy, a powerful swell of emotions, a feeling that things suddenly have color and beauty, and all that good stuff, endorphin deficiency is a distinct possibility.

I read in a book, I believe it was "Denial of the Soul" by M. Scott Peck, MD, that many docs realize that there is a form of atypical depresion that responds only to opiates. However, they know that they cannot Rx opioids for depression in this great land of ours, so all they can do is keep trying drugs they know are very unlikely to help, and watch us suffer.

Methadone has worked well for me in alleviating the depression without causing all the wild swings that come with short acting opioids, but it's not exactly the same. It's about 75% better then nothing, but there's still something missing. But it's the best I can do for now--it's a balancing act.

[OhJoy]

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome. I didn't think there existed a community where people would understand why I need to be opiated. I thought I was the only one who was using for depression
Antigonemuse- is your avatar from A Clockwork orange? cool

Narkotikon- I know what you are saying, Why isn't some drug company trying to create a med that works like opiates without tolerance. It shouldn't be that hard. wtf. I was on many nasty meds in trying to get out of depression. Most of it made me feel worse. And talk about withdrawels...horrible. I can't imagine w/d from hydro will be that bad.

I have made so much progress in my life while on opiates. I'm in my late 30s and I just started living. So many wasted years. All the time, energy, money spent seeing phych docs and nothing helped. I've been trying to get better (via the system) for over 18 years. Screw the sytem. I'm helping myself. And right now I'm helping myself to another dose. :)

Shadowbox- as far as getting bupe...I wouldn't know where to start. I live in MD and opiate is a dirty word in these parts. There is no way I could even bring this up to my doc. No doc wants to help, they just want money for giving crap meds that don't work and then upping the dose.

KiloByte- I know I will be f'd when I run out. I'm trying to be cool about my dose. I've been steady for some time now at 40mg/day and a break every 10 days. I go on kratom for 3 days then back to the hydro. so far so good. I'm not sure how long of a run I will have,but I don't care. any run I get at life is a good run.

I used to chip, but I want to feel good everyday so that's how I ended up a nonchipper.

Duckfeet- OMG that is totally f'd. so sorry. I've never tried H and I only smoked pot a few times..didn't like it. I've never even thougt about H until this forum. I used to think of it as complete lack of control drug, but now I think that people just want to get the best out of life. I want to know more about your situation so b4 I start asking alot of questions I'll read more of your posts so I can get more of your story. tx

opiobsessed- I'm glad there is a boat we are in. I began 8 months ago taking hydro regularly. It's good to know that I may have several years till I 'burn out'. I thought I may only get a year and then be so tolerant that I'd go back to my miserable life and just off myself, but now that I hear ppl do it for years and that gives me some hope.

(sorry this got long but I want ed to respond to everyone)

Thanks again so much and I'll get to the other folks in another post as to not create a huge post.

[insaneike]

Welcome to ourt homble lil home on the interweb my opiated friend :D


nad opioids are a very good way to temporarily deal with depression and shit I feel. Never personaly been depressed(and i aint gonna get tino my views on it hehe) and well, OF COURSE GETTING HIGH MAKES U FEEL BETTER AND WANNA LIVE :p

Maybe you just need to take a trip on mescal with a very experienced tripper and see what your problems are and the good and evil things goin on(dont ask, just do!)..

later, and enjoy man!

[OhJoy]

broken-I know what you mean about organized. I've been kicking ass at work. I'm started to really move ahead. I was close to quitting my job and eventually fading into oblivian. Now I'm seen and moving up. It's great. I've never tried adderall. Not sure I could get it anyway, but I'm sure I would find it beneficial as you did.

I agree about the pharm industry, It's so black and white for me with the drug. How many other people suffer and end up offing themselves when there exists the potential for folks to live happy productive lives.

Right now I take breaks every ten days with kratom. I'm not sure if that is enuf or I'm just putting off the inevitible.

I want so desperatley to feel good and 'live and prosper' I'm willing to throw the dice.

Prettypoppy- LOVE the Corgi! he's great. Dogs rule!
anyway I too have been on nearly every AD. I must have this endorphine deficiency syndrome . My spouse gets nauseas and drowsy. I get happy energetic and motivated. the change in me is incredible. I also have this amazing creative side to me that I never knew existed until opiates. hurray for opies!!

This had been a great chat all. Look forward to many more.

[Duckfeet]

<snip>
Duckfeet- OMG that is totally f'd. so sorry. I've never tried H and I only smoked pot a few times..didn't like it. I've never even thougt about H until this forum. I used to think of it as complete lack of control drug, but now I think that people just want to get the best out of life. I want to know more about your situation so b4 I start asking alot of questions I'll read more of your posts so I can get more of your story. tx

<snip>
.

I didn't mean to sound glum...I paid some dues, but most of my life, funny enough, has been happy. Life's a kick in the ass. I just figured a long time ago that I wasn't going to be playing by the same rules...I'd say "I marched to the beat of a different drummer," but some of the other old hands on here would start barfing so I won't do that ;-)

I'm on 25mg daily methadone, and working to get off it again. I may switch back to subutex (buprenorphine) which seemed to me to have less "heavy" feel to it than methadone, but I did stay cheerful and wasn't craving on 4-6mg subs daily. You can get that from docs. A good website is naabt.org, and you can punch in your zipcode, and they both give you a list, or/and hook you up with a local doc that will prescribe buprenorphine, which I think worked good on opiate deprived depression, or whatever it is lost junkies got ;-)

I did that today, and got hold of two docs right away, and am seeing one tomorrow, so hopefully, until I can get near my DOC again (heroin), in a safe way, I can get back on subs. (BTW--thanks to those who posted that lengthy buprenorphine stuff--that's where I got info from)

Anyway, best of luck, kid


Duckfeet

[OhJoy]

Duckfeet-I guess I should check that out. I use an ROP for meds now and that's expensive. It would probably be alot cheaper to go the bupe route.

thanks

[prettypoppy]

I tried bupe back in 2000. We had an addictionologist in my town (with the unbelievable name of Dr. JONES, lol!), and he was Rxing it before the FDA even approved it for use in addiction. He prescribed the injectable ampules, and you were supposed tp inject one subcutaneously (under the skin) twice a day for 5 days, and that was your detox. At the time I was not yet on heroin, but had a major hydro habit. My husband did as well, and he tried it also. It did nothing for us--zip. zero. zilch. I have no idea why, or if it was the way we took it or something else, but I am not trying that stuff again! I have no faith in it--for me. Especially now that they have naloxone in it--they didn't back then. But if it works for you, it would be better than all the BS you get at some clinics.

[freedomclub]

I agree completely, BB. I have always known there was something "atypical" about my depression. Good ord, I literally took every darn antidepressant in the known universe, to no avail. the only thing that ever helped was opiates. I have since learned a great deal about endorphine deficiency syndrome. I really believe that the initial response we have to opioid drugs is pretty predictive of whether or not there is an endorphine problem. If we feel a bit drowsy and kinda nauseous and that's it--we are probably normal in the endorphin dept. BUT--if we have that big surge of long lost energy, a powerful swell of emotions, a feeling that things suddenly have color and beauty, and all that good stuff, endorphin deficiency is a distinct possibility.

I read in a book, I believe it was "Denial of the Soul" by M. Scott Peck, MD, that many docs realize that there is a form of atypical depresion that responds only to opiates. However, they know that they cannot Rx opioids for depression in this great land of ours, so all they can do is keep trying drugs they know are very unlikely to help, and watch us suffer.

Methadone has worked well for me in alleviating the depression without causing all the wild swings that come with short acting opioids, but it's not exactly the same. It's about 75% better then nothing, but there's still something missing. But it's the best I can do for now--it's a balancing act.


Exactly!.

[Duckfeet]

Duckfeet-I guess I should check that out. I use an ROP for meds now and that's expensive. It would probably be alot cheaper to go the bupe route.

thanks

I hope it works out for you, either way. I've spent a lifetime balancing between illegal drugs of choice, and legal stuff which I either can't get enough of, or don't like all that much. Anyway, I got an appt this afternoon with some doc don't speak English too good, trying to get back on subutex, rather than methadone, which I'm on....

[Duckfeet]

I tried bupe back in 2000. We had an addictionologist in my town (with the unbelievable name of Dr. JONES, lol!), and he was Rxing it before the FDA even approved it for use in addiction. He prescribed the injectable ampules, and you were supposed tp inject one subcutaneously (under the skin) twice a day for 5 days, and that was your detox. At the time I was not yet on heroin, but had a major hydro habit. My husband did as well, and he tried it also. It did nothing for us--zip. zero. zilch. I have no idea why, or if it was the way we took it or something else, but I am not trying that stuff again! I have no faith in it--for me. Especially now that they have naloxone in it--they didn't back then. But if it works for you, it would be better than all the BS you get at some clinics.


yup--I think maybe u might know me from other forum, if so u know my constant battle between methadone, which I shoud probably stay on, and other drugs, which are either illegal, or I can't get reasonable supply of. I actually got appt this afternoon, see a doc, try to see if I can switch back over to subutex. We'll see.

I felt o.k. on subs, once I got down to around 4-6 mg. but I too had read a lot of the horror stories of longterm users, particularly at the higher doses, so I know it's no free lunch. A lot of it is with me, too, just the pain of the clinic system. And the long wait for beginning takehomes. It is really a crying shame that docs can't prescribe methadone along with bup. I mean, it would take away a lot of the problems with clinics, particularly I think with younger addicts getting put in with hardcore older heroin addicts.

So again, I had less of the physical side effects on subs, that I have on methadone, and subs got rid of craving, since I can't satisfy that craving out here, so I might switch back over, we'll see....

I always like your posts. If you don't know me from other forum forgive me. this person has similar views and way with words that you do. I always pay attention when I see posts from your twin....I use same tired old handle Duckfeet everywhere, so I'm not hard to follow LOL, and obviously can't stay consistant w/any point of view to save my life ;-)

Duckfeet

[prettypoppy]

Yup, it's me, Duck. You found me out! I like to come here once in awhile when I get tired of my do-gooder advocate hat and share with others who still dream the opiate dream, ya know. It's a good place.

[Duckfeet]

Yup, it's me, Duck. You found me out! I like to come here once in awhile when I get tired of my do-gooder advocate hat and share with others who still dream the opiate dream, ya know. It's a good place.

yeah, it was just some other posts: I had remembered you explaining endorphins and stuff in a way I had never read before or since, so I kind of paid attention. you might have, but before your posts I had always suspected that something had changed permanent in my wiring, and nothing would undo it, and when u posted that on other forum I had always remembered it...and I didn't want to repeat my whole life history since u already know how crazy I am ;-)

and yeah, I'm happy here...lots of people just like me!

all the best!

[OhJoy]

Do you mind pointing me in the right direction of this post you speak of? another forum? sounds like I may get something out of reading it. about being rewired and the endorphin connection.

thanks all

[Duckfeet]

Do you mind pointing me in the right direction of this post you speak of? another forum? sounds like I may get something out of reading it. about being rewired and the endorphin connection.

thanks all

Well, the other forum was the first place I had found online that was supportive of people on methadone maintenance, and you have to know that I had just gotten back on maint., after many years *off* of it, so I was ranting about how much I hated it, and...well, I'm kind of--I don't even know how to put this--inconsistant about methadone maintenance. One day dying to get on it, then dying to get off it. I'm really kind of chickenshit about it, to be honest. People on this other site have been pretty supportive of me, but they don't take too much of my bullshit, either. I mean, many of them, methadone has saved their lives, given them lives worth living, and I'm like, as soon as I get back on it, always fighting it...but they're used to me, and pretty nice about it.

There were several posts about how endorphins sometimes change permanently, and no matter *how* long a person is off opiates, they may never be totally happy, etc. Anyway, you're more than welcome to come over there, there is also a forum on there for people on buprenorphine, though not quite as active as the one for people on methadone. If u do a search for endorphin/s I'm sure you'll come up with several of the posts describing the changes, and why many see methadone as a lifesaver. I'm in agreement, by the way, about the endorphin changes, and believe I'm definitely one of'em...I just don't like the side effects of methadone, and don't always give it enough time...but anyway, enough, the site is: www.readybb.com/watchdog ...and I'm duckfeet there, duckfeet here, same as the damn Voit Duckfeet swimfins I just got thru taking off when I got done bodysurfing this afternoon, when the sunset in damn 63 degree water w/a springsuit ;-)

and the post on here I was referring to, was one of PrettyPoppys on the methadone forum, on why I'm on methadone, or do I like methadone, or some thread like that....I'm sure PrettyPoppy could give a much better description of what prolonged opiate use does to endorphins, than my addled memory can bring up


All the best to you....

[Duckfeet]

Thanks, I knew I couldn't remember it. What got me, when I first read about that, is that I had *known* something like that, but never knew exactly what it was, just felt guilty for feeling the way I did.

I was like in V.A. pyschiatric wards after Vietnam was was over, and kind of just bummed about everything, and felt in my head like I hadn't measured up to a horrific experience I went thru...but anyway they were throwing all these weirdass meds at me, whatever they had back in the seventies, and I knew back then, that nothing, but *nothing* made me feel good the way that heroin did, and every once in a while would say that, in a joking way.

And throughout the years of my misspent life, I always knew that only on opiates did I function in a happy way. I was a commercial diver, and was walking pipe--pipeline inspections--around 170 feet, which is halfassed deep, for air, anyway, and I had tons of dilaudids out there with me, and re-upped every time I came in...and I'd get out of the water, into decompression chamer, then go into cabin and shoot up dilaudid, and be happy. And I knew, christ, if just some doc would prescribe me enough K4's I could function and be o.k. in this world...and I could do *anything* on those things. they never like *hampered* me, or made me stupid, but the opposite, I seemed to be happy and engaged...but oh what a price to pay, between withdrawals, the lifestyle of thieving and conning, and occasional lockup, whew!

I had always known that, and have spent much of my life finding ways to get opiates, whether pharmaceutical or heroin, and life always seemed never quite right without them....

My problems, as I know you've heard me talk about way too much, are with the clinic, and the fact that methadone just never seems to agree with me...which, of course, is why so futily I always hope they'ed do diamorphine maint for people for the very reasons you posted about endorphins.

Anyway, thanks for posting that, I was sorry I kind of "outed" you, but posts of yours on endorphins were so helpful, and like, such a relief for me to read, since it's like finally some medical notions that were so similar to what I had always felt in my gut.

[prettypoppy]

Yeah, Duck, I felt the same way when I learned about it. It's weird, because I have to admit that while MMT has eliminated the physical cravings for me, and keeps me in a much better state mentally, I still struggle with lethargy to some drgree, and while I am in a much more stable mood, it is not really comparable to what I felt on, say, heroin or hydros. I don't feel the bliss, I guess. And I do miss that. And if I really thought I could get on heroin maintenance legally, I would definitely pull out all the stops to do that. But for now, I have responsibilities here and methadone works better for me by far than anything else I have ever tried. But I gotta say--when I dose in the mornings, I do feel, for about 45 minutes, a small "glow" if you will, a bit of euphoria, a small wave of talkativeness, that I will completely miss if I am not sitting still paying attention--and that is usually the highlight of my day. I just wish it lasted longer.

Oddly, methadone has completely knocked out all desire to drink, too. I used to drink a lot when I could not get my DOC, and now it has zero attraction for me. The 2 times I have tried it, I can't even say I felt anything much. Weird.

[Duckfeet]

Yeah, Duck, I felt the same way when I learned about it. It's weird, because I have to admit that while MMT has eliminated the physical cravings for me, and keeps me in a much better state mentally, I still struggle with lethargy to some drgree, and while I am in a much more stable mood, it is not really comparable to what I felt on, say, heroin or hydros. I don't feel the bliss, I guess. And I do miss that. And if I really thought I could get on heroin maintenance legally, I would definitely pull out all the stops to do that. But for now, I have responsibilities here and methadone works better for me by far than anything else I have ever tried. But I gotta say--when I dose in the mornings, I do feel, for about 45 minutes, a small "glow" if you will, a bit of euphoria, a small wave of talkativeness, that I will completely miss if I am not sitting still paying attention--and that is usually the highlight of my day. I just wish it lasted longer.

Oddly, methadone has completely knocked out all desire to drink, too. I used to drink a lot when I could not get my DOC, and now it has zero attraction for me. The 2 times I have tried it, I can't even say I felt anything much. Weird.

Yeah, me too, on all that. And one of the reasons, even in old days, I'd actually try to keep methadone at low dose was because if I was sick, even slightly sick, in the morning, then I feel it when I dose, about an hour later, a little buzz. And that was same this time. And one thing, it always seemed to work on the cravings, even when a was in the middle of smack world. I haven't drink in years now. We'll see. I know I'm going back on subs again, but if I could get methadone or long acting opiate from doc, I probably wouldn't go sub route...I don't like what I read about longterm sub use...I mean, there just isn't enough known, and methadone, at least, is a known quantity. but I still have that thing about clinics, you know, and shit, just makes me feel so old, I mean, back in the damn clinic again, and... oh well, we'll see what the future holds anyway.....

I'm not sure what I'm going to do. I got a real urge to fly over to UK in March, want to go anyway, and then see what odds are of foreign nat. getting on diamorphine. But that might be pipedream, and I try not to do that, but we'll see. Other choice, is to go private pain clinics--I got a fusion in neck--see if I could get enough longacting opiates, oxy or morphine, to tide me over. Truth is, since I'm over fifty, they generally seem more willing to dose, than when I was a kid, so that's my other option...
Third, is, if subs don't work after period of time, or I get spooked by what I read, again, to go back on methadone, but I want to be able to travel if I can, and subs make that a lot easier anyway, so we'll see..fourth option of course, is don't do anything, but I give up on that one, I kept trying that, and I succeeded for long time, but it just doesn't seem to work: without some kind of opiates in me life just sucks, and my life is good, so it's not that....


Take care,,,,,

[Woods]

I have no idea what percent of the people on this board are in the same position as you, as me, but it’s probably higher then you think. Must drug users, not the weekend warriors but the daily dosers, are depressed, and it’s not the drugs that made them that way. Some need up, others need down, but left or right, we’re all off and looking to get back to a place that feels natural, but for us isn’t.

I just started celexa, I’m not sure what that’ll do to me, maybe it’ll help, maybe not, I don’t know. What I do know is that I’m not going to go off my methadone any time soon, despite the fact that my dad is less then comfortable with it (and with paying the $360 a month it runs me) because it helps keep me sane. He just doesn’t understand that I have certain chemical needs, certain chemical imbalances, and ever when I’m totally clean, I can’t stay like that for long, because it just doesn’t feel right.

My shrink understands, he hopes that celexa might lessen my need for self medication, for methadone, but he understands that opiates really do help me, and he seems to respect that, which is a nice change from most people you‘ll run in to in the “real“ world. Another reason this site is a nice place to get away from “out there”, the big, scary world filled with unfriendly, uncaring people. And they wonder why we need something to soften the hard edges. Opiates are like sandpaper, they might be a little rough sometimes, but they sure do make things smooth.

[Duckfeet]

I have no idea what percent of the people on this board are in the same position as you, as me, but it’s probably higher then you think. Must drug users, not the weekend warriors but the daily dosers, are depressed, and it’s not the drugs that made them that way. Some need up, others need down, but left or right, we’re all off and looking to get back to a place that feels natural, but for us isn’t.

I just started celexa, I’m not sure what that’ll do to me, maybe it’ll help, maybe not, I don’t know. What I do know is that I’m not going to go off my methadone any time soon, despite the fact that my dad is less then comfortable with it (and with paying the $360 a month it runs me) because it helps keep me sane. He just doesn’t understand that I have certain chemical needs, certain chemical imbalances, and ever when I’m totally clean, I can’t stay like that for long, because it just doesn’t feel right.

My shrink understands, he hopes that celexa might lessen my need for self medication, for methadone, but he understands that opiates really do help me, and he seems to respect that, which is a nice change from most people you‘ll run in to in the “real“ world. Another reason this site is a nice place to get away from “out there”, the big, scary world filled with unfriendly, uncaring people. And they wonder why we need something to soften the hard edges. Opiates are like sandpaper, they might be a little rough sometimes, but they sure do make things smooth.


Yeah, PrettyPoppy had written about that, and I had heard somewhere before...I think on that corny radio show, by Dr. Dean Edell, that some people, opiates cured their depression, and that had never occured to me. I just knew that when I was on the right dose of opiates, I was happy. I figured that most of the time, off opiates, that life just sucked. But then again, that's what depressed people think.

The other thing is, this is a good site. I know sites to go to, that will help me get *off* everything. But I'm not wanting that. I was so relieved to find a site for people that *weren't* trying to get off opiates....

[OhJoy]

I know ....I am so glad to have found this site where people are not trying to get off opies. I want to try and be on a maint. dose.

I'm using kratom for a few days a week. I'm not sure if that plan is sound, but that's what I'm doing

woods-how is the Celexa working for you? I had taken lexapro in the past with some relief, but I still didn't feel quite normal. I remeber for a the first week or so on it I actually felt like my soul was gone. I'm so glad 'I' came back.

[(inaudible screams)]

Hey OhJoy

I am a little late to the thread, but I also use the opie's to lift my depression. I also take Cymbalta which is a common antidepressant.

Some insight I can give you: The opies will make you feel great and all of the good things, but when you run out and begin to go through WDs you will feel the opposite effect. It's all about maintaining, but it gets harder and more expensive as your tolerance rises.

Also, extended use of opiates can cause your sex drive to evaporate. This can be quite a problem if you have a significant other.

[Woods]

woods-how is the Celexa working for you? I had taken lexapro in the past with some relief, but I still didn't feel quite normal. I remeber for a the first week or so on it I actually felt like my soul was gone. I'm so glad 'I' came back.

Well, I haven’t even been on it for a week so it’s still kind of hard to tell. Aside from the negative side effects that are normal in the beginning and that are supposed to go away, like jitteriness and increased anxiety, I think I’m starting to feel a little better.

I’m on only on 10mg/day, which shouldn’t have a whole lot in the way of effects, negative or positive, anyway. I’m being mover up tom $20 on the 5th.

Thanks a lot for your concern, I’ll make sure to keep you all informed.

By the way, any other drugs that I be I should be tasking along with this stuff to improve it and, in general the functioning of my brain.

[OxyContinuously]

I agree w/ you guys: opiates are the way to go for me at least regarding depression. SSRI's, Maoi's and the like are are bull****, in my opinion; hey they may work for some, but not for me or anyone I know.

[evilfix]

depression is the main reason why i take opiates. iv been majorly depressed since the age of around 9, seriously.

i have tried lexapro, amitriptyline, cymbalta, and effexor xr for my depression, but none worked.

i ran across prescription pain meds and found that they made me feel something i never felt before, happy!
however i dont have the resources to stay happy all day. (wish i could). so im only happy for ~4 hours every 2 days or so.

[Dan Steely]

hi ohJoy,
i've been following your posts with great interest. i too have found that hydro works great for alleviating depression. i'm not really sure i am technically depressed. sometimes for no apparent reason i am just stuck in a fog, kind of a detached feeling. i found that just one 7.5 snaps me out of it and then some. the difference is night and day. while i would love to take a little every day i will not as i do not have access to a steady supply and more importantly i am determined to maintain my low tolerance and not get caught up in the opi trap (we'll see). while i would like to feel good everyday it seems to try to use everyday would eventually lead to many days of agony way beyond the simple mild depression i currently deal with. so i just resign myself to feeling like shit most days. it does help me during those times just knowing relief is avaiable. i do realize your situation is not the same as mine but maybe to some degree you could utilize a similar mindset to help yourself. i am curious to know how your experience with kratom compares to hydro. also if you have had to up your hydro dose to get relief. again from reading your posts i believe the severity of your depression is much greater than my own and i don't want to come across as though i think i know whats best for you. i'm very glad you have found a way to enjoy your life. you deserve to. btw did you ever see the episode where ren becomes a hermit trippin out on fungus in a cave,awesome!,my fave. i read all your posts so be good i'm watchin. much love from your #1 fan;)

[tptptp]

OhJoy, I saw in another thread that you considered using pods. I would advise against it for now. If you aren't going to quit and have a constant supply of hydros I would stay on them as long as possible until your tolerance to them gets super high. If you skip right to pods your going to make your tolerance much worse where you probably wont feel much from hydros eventually.......EVENTUALLY you will get to pods and stuff anyways, you always need to progress to stronger stuff at some point to get the same high. Swim wishes he would have started with hydro instead of tea. Once you go up its incredibly hard to get back down. Quite often this is just a progression to heroin. Not always of course....
Opiates are great for depression but being that most means of getting a steady supply are illegal in our great free country(when production is SUPER CHEAP) it becomes very expensive and hard and W/D is absolute hell. I'm not trying to bust your bubble cuz id be a hypocrite. I havent even been addicted very long and I'm already debating whether the whole thing was a good idea in hindsight....little late now

Pod's contain morphine which is in a different league than hydros when it comes to kicking and the half life is very long. I've heard quite a few people say that a heroin kick was cake comapred to a tea kick which i see compared alot to methadone kick. It's a very harsh reality check when its time to pay your dues and your new.

[Duckfeet]

OhJoy, I saw in another thread that you considered using pods. I would advise against it for now. If you aren't going to quit and have a constant supply of hydros I would stay on them as long as possible until your tolerance to them gets super high. If you skip right to pods your going to make your tolerance much worse where you probably wont feel much from hydros eventually.......EVENTUALLY you will get to pods and stuff anyways, you always need to progress to stronger stuff at some point to get the same high. Swim wishes he would have started with hydro instead of tea. Once you go up its incredibly hard to get back down. Quite often this is just a progression to heroin. Not always of course....
Opiates are great for depression but being that most means of getting a steady supply are illegal in our great free country(when production is SUPER CHEAP) it becomes very expensive and hard and W/D is absolute hell. I'm not trying to bust your bubble cuz id be a hypocrite. I havent even been addicted very long and I'm already debating whether the whole thing was a good idea in hindsight....little late now

Pod's contain morphine which is in a different league than hydros when it comes to kicking and the half life is very long. I've heard quite a few people say that a heroin kick was cake comapred to a tea kick which i see compared alot to methadone kick. It's a very harsh reality check when its time to pay your dues and your new.

That's a pretty wise old post, there, TP. I started out with heroin. I had never done pain pills of any kind before that, and I think that's why I had such a fast progression, and would just laugh at people who did pain pills and shit. And I ended up in prison by mid-twenties, for just that reason. And I also agree with your take on the whole opiate-depression thing. I'm still torn on that one. Because of the steady supply thing. And I'm on subs now, but they don't do it the way stronger, shorter activing opiates do. I'm glad you posted that. I think some people think that because pods are natural, and non-pharmaceutical, that maybe they don't give that much of a habit...

[tptptp]

Yeah I wish I would have started on hydros, and its probably even better for her if she wants to fight depression and not get high so much. I personally am not a real big fan of fast acting opiates. My tolerance is still small though. Several of my first times doing tea I was super paranoid and scared and probably built up a bit of a tolerance just dabbling, damn website said 5 grams of powder could be enough to od ya if it was strong enough. Probably didnt get high til my 7th time or so. Plus I was expecting some great mystical feeling being new to opiates and reading the reno article. its very subtle but enjoyable. I enjoy the energy burst the most. Im a fairly strong will powered person when it comes to making decent life decisions but I dont think I'll ever be able to quit now because I have been so severely depressed for so long, just that little subtle high mmakes me feel so mentally horrible when I dont have it. In all honesty though, if it wasnt for depression I dont think I'd do opiates at all, just wouldnt be worth it.

Actually one of the earlier times I did get high I guess, couldnt stay awake and was gasping for air a little bit really scary, i watched tv for a long time which i never do but never really felt good from it.That took a while

[Inspektahdek]

Pod's contain morphine which is in a different league than hydros when it comes to kicking and the half life is very long. I've heard quite a few people say that a heroin kick was cake comapred to a tea kick which i see compared alot to methadone kick. It's a very harsh reality check when its time to pay your dues and your new.


Yeah this is primarily due to pods containing more than one active opiate alkaloid so you get addicted to more than just lets say "morphine" from the pods but other opiate analogues as well kind of but not directly related to kicking lets say specifically xanax and oxycontin.

[OhJoy]

I found that my sex drive returned. You've got to understand that I was deeply depressed b4 so the lift out of the darkness has brought me a new self. That new self is sexual now where as b4 it was non-existent. I guess we all are different.

Another great thing that has happened to me is the creative side. I am finding a person I didn't know existed. I LOVE the new me now and I NEVER want to be off opiates.

[OhJoy]

woods-I remeber when I started out on Lexapro, I had to start at 2.5 mg because I was so anxious. The doc kept saying that I need to up it to get rid of it. What a fuck head he was. Anyway, everytime I went back and said I still feel like killing myself, he upped my dose. I was on 40mg per day. like WTF. I felt so bad at that high dose. I do have to admit that after about a month some of the suicidal thoughts were less sever. I hope it works out for you

[Dan Steely]

hey OhJoy. truely happy for you. jealous too!

[OhJoy]

Hey Dan. I tried just using on weekends and suffering during the week. I was so unproductive. I was suicidal sometimes and I couldn't get up for work. I was so close to quitting life.

I kept trying to seek help with antidepressants with no real help. Once I was able to secure a steady supply of hydro, I made up my mind that I was going to be happy every day.:D

Kratom has been a god send in the way of bridgeing the days I'm off Hydro. I find it to be extremely comparable to hydro. I try to use K two-three days every 10 days on hydro. It really does give me the 'lift' I get form hydro. I'm a little me alert on K, but not as organized and productive. It's a strange and subtle difference. Of course I prefer hydro, but after 10 days straight, I can feel my body telling me to take a break.

It so great to know I'm not the only one doing this sort of thing to deal with depression. It's so taboo that I guess you just don't hear about it too often. It seems so natural and right, I can't imagine it doesn't make more headlines.

I do remember that episode! I love it! I also like the one where Stimpy is crapping in his litter box and throughly enjoying it. LOL

here's some love right back at ya. ;)

[Dan Steely]

:cloud9: digs hydro and cartoons. no wonder she's so popular!

[tptptp]

Yeah this is primarily due to pods containing more than one active opiate alkaloid so you get addicted to more than just lets say "morphine" from the pods but other opiate analogues as well kind of but not directly related to kicking lets say specifically xanax and oxycontin.

Yep, I know.....stepping up to morphine I would think is alot more psychologically addicting I should have said, along with getting off being super hard because of all the goodies in it.

[OhJoy]

Yep, I know.....stepping up to morphine I would think is alot more psychologically addicting I should have said, along with getting off being super hard because of all the goodies in it.

Thanks for the advise tp and duckfeet. I didn't realize it would be a step up. I was thinking it could be a break sort of thing, but after what you have told me about pods and w/d I think I will wait till I burn out on hydro. It sounds like pods would send me into a tail spin if I had to w/d from that.

[tptptp]

Thanks for the advise tp and duckfeet. I didn't realize it would be a step up. I was thinking it could be a break sort of thing, but after what you have told me about pods and w/d I think I will wait till I burn out on hydro. It sounds like pods would send me into a tail spin if I had to w/d from that.

Yep thats what I'd do. You said your suicidal before the opiates and now you aren't.....make sure you dont run out because w/d will make the depression 100 X worse, hydro probably wont be so bad but the pods will be sickening....

[Duckfeet]

Yep thats what I'd do. You said your suicidal before the opiates and now you aren't.....make sure you dont run out because w/d will make the depression 100 X worse, hydro probably wont be so bad but the pods will be sickening....

Yep. I mean, I'm one of those people that need opiates to be reasonably happy. But somewhere in lifelong pursuit of'em I've had to face some pretty hard facts. That eventually you run out. That there is no free lunch. For all the "up" days, I gotta go thru quite a few "down" days. I was never suicidal. When I'm kicking, or forced off opiates for whatever reason, it just seems like the world sucks, and I'm just marking time, and I hate that. Once I found that indescribable joy that comes from a good opiate rush, I've never seen the world quite the same since. It's the price we pay. I mean we try to avoid it or escape with all kinds of plans and fantasies, but I've found that this life is a rough one at times. The things we have to go thru to get opiates, and the things we go thru when out of desperation, we get off'em.

Nobody could warn me off, so I don't try to do that. Life can be pretty tough to take, straight, so we find relief where we can. Just good to keep one's eyes open, to recognize there is a price to pay, for the joy.

Best wishes,,,

[OhJoy]

Duckeet, why do we have to pay? It doesn't seem fair that I have had to suffer my whole life then finally find a little happiness (well somedays alot of Happiness:D ) and then have to eventually 'pay the piper' .

I am so jealous of these people I see, walking around whistling, and being productive and the only thing they are on is life. What "past-life-wrong' am I paying for now?. I keep telling myself that I'm not going to let it get out of hand...Well today I was a BAD girl. I broke one of my rules. I took about 5 or 6 norcos. I was popping them so often I don't even remember how many I took. I don't feel guilty now, but tomorrow morning I will feel like dirt. and I have a very scarce supply, so that will mean I will have to really cut back for the next week. This whole thing SUCKS!

Thanks for reading my rant. Best wishes to you too. :)

[tptptp]

Duckeet, why do we have to pay? It doesn't seem fair that I have had to suffer my whole life then finally find a little happiness (well somedays alot of Happiness:D ) and then have to eventually 'pay the piper' .


Read what I posted a few messages ago, thats how we have to pay unfortunately.

[Duckfeet]

Duckeet, why do we have to pay? It doesn't seem fair that I have had to suffer my whole life then finally find a little happiness (well somedays alot of Happiness:D ) and then have to eventually 'pay the piper' .

I am so jealous of these people I see, walking around whistling, and being productive and the only thing they are on is life. What "past-life-wrong' am I paying for now?. I keep telling myself that I'm not going to let it get out of hand...Well today I was a BAD girl. I broke one of my rules. I took about 5 or 6 norcos. I was popping them so often I don't even remember how many I took. I don't feel guilty now, but tomorrow morning I will feel like dirt. and I have a very scarce supply, so that will mean I will have to really cut back for the next week. This whole thing SUCKS!

Thanks for reading my rant. Best wishes to you too. :)

I don't know. I've often wondered that myself. I mean we pay because of the physical and mental problems that opiates themselves bring. Somewhat like those who enjoy alcohol on a regular basis. But sadly we too are also saddled with all the problems that the damn lack of *availability* of opiates--legally--brings with them. So we not only have to hassle with overdosing and kicking, but also with jails, prison, and the occasional outraged family member. And yet, without the occasional use of opiates life--for me--becomes unbearable boring and grim. Other people don't always understand this. To them our life is *complicated* by our use of opiates, while to us they are they only thing that makes life worth living. On opiates I succeed and am reasonably happy. Off them I sit in a chair and wait.

What you did with the Norcos I have done all my life. I don't know if I've ever held onto something that would give me immediate pleasure. The funny thing is I have got off dope. For long periods, and everybody else was really happy. Had the best career in the world, women liked me, my Mom was thrilled, my parole officer thought I was a success story...but I thought it sucked. One night I'm down in a bar in South Louisiana, got a Harley out front, I'm a successful offshore oilfield commercial diver, and I remember thinking what I really wanted. And this clown walks in and we get to shooting the shit, and within a few minutes he says something like "I know exactly what you want, but I can't get it tonight." And I figured he didn't understand, thought I meant coke, which was everywhere, and common in the oilfield, but he kept saying no, but he wouldn't tell me what it was, for some reason, but said he'd meet me next day, so I went down there when the place opened, and he had a a bottle of K4 dilaudids, and I bought a few, got a rig, and went home and was happy again.

And sure, within about a year I'd lost it all again, picked up another bust, my wife had left me, on and on, but I wouldn't go back and change that. Because as soon as I did that dilaudid, that's when *I* knew happiness. I mean, everybody else might be thrilled when I'm acting the way they want, but I'm not living for other people.

I mean right now I live by the Pacific Ocean, got little cottage just right for me, got a pension and a couple bucks saved up and everybody from my friends to Mom thinks how happy I must be. I mean, they had parade tonight a block from my house, and I walked over and watched the fire trucks and the bikers roar by, and a bunch of my friends and a girl I knew we all watched it, and I could tell they were stoked. But all I'm thinking about is how these subs aren't doing it, how I got to get away and score some good opiates, and is it too soon to hustle another dilaudid out of the V.A., and should I sneak off and try my luck down in Mexico, etc., etc.

I mean I'm not *stupid.* I even scold myself: man, the odds are *so* against you beating another bust, the party's over, be grateful you survived this long, get over this shit, blah, blah, blah...but, it doesn't work. I knew I threw my hat in this ring when I was really young. What you put as a tagline is a way I decided to live long time ago. I figured I'd trade in a whole life time of crappy boring living, for a few minutes of heaven, once in a while.

is it worth it? Sometimes it is...just not tonight ;-)

[OhJoy]

To them our life is *complicated* by our use of opiates, while to us they are they only thing that makes life worth living. On opiates I succeed and am reasonably happy. Off them I sit in a chair and wait.


You are right. But I pretty much can't make it to the chair. I just stay in Bed. :p

I know where you are coming from. I decided too that I require these things to be a productive stable normal happy outgoing person. I skipped a couple of days and I felt like my world was caving in. I emotionally couldn't handle anything.

The funny thing is I have got off dope. For long periods, and everybody else was really happy.
How hard was that? You sound like a strong person mentally, I'm not sure I would be able to go back. Just recently I had a small mental breakdown while on my 'break'.

I wanted to chat more, but it seems my eyes are heavy and I can barely put two sentences together. I did want to say that I appreciate you sharing your story. Hope we can chat in the future. :)

sweet dreams all.

[Dan Steely]

very nice writing duckfeet.

[Guinea Pig]

Note: this thread was merged into this one by one of the mods, which is why the post below seems kind of strange for a.. post. Thanks for merging, it definitely belongs here!

I know that some members on this site simply use opiates to get high as a kite, and some use them to simply deal with life. I'm mostly going to be speaking of the latter.

For the purposes of this thread, let's assume you had an unlimited supply of your DOC. We all know that with opiates, tolerance increases very rapidly. Think of how much money you had to spend to get high when you first started, versus now.

What I want to know, is if it is possible to maintain a constant level of use even while tolerance builds up and if the use will still have positive effects. I don't have a habit, and I'm not looking to get one just to find this out, but we all know if you take 20mg oxy a day you won't be getting "high" off it after a week. You'll want more. But say you have an infinite amount of will, will (ha, pun?) that 20mg/day habit still offer you some relief and ability to deal with the regular pains of life?

I ask because I am young and because taking just 50mg of codeine actually helps me get through a tough day (yes, codeine. 50mg). Whenever I take opiates, they do not sedate me. I feel like finally accomplishing things that are usually too much for me to handle. I'm not clinically depressed in any way, just rather.. unmotivated.

I don't care about getting high every day, that's not my craving. I just want to know if I am I just dreaming a of medium-dose opiate use for a good portion of my life and will the tolerance eventually make me feel absolutely nothing from this, or if this is actually possible.

Any input is appreciated.

[Duckfeet]

I know that some members on this site simply use opiates to get high as a kite, and some use them to simply deal with life. I'm mostly going to be speaking of the latter.

For the purposes of this thread, let's assume you had an unlimited supply of your DOC. We all know that with opiates, tolerance increases very rapidly. Think of how much money you had to spend to get high when you first started, versus now.

What I want to know, is if it is possible to maintain a constant level of use even while tolerance builds up and if the use will still have positive effects. I don't have a habit, and I'm not looking to get one just to find this out, but we all know if you take 20mg oxy a day you won't be getting "high" off it after a week. You'll want more. But say you have an infinite amount of will, will (ha, pun?) that 20mg/day habit still offer you some relief and ability to deal with the regular pains of life?

I ask because I am young and because taking just 50mg of codeine actually helps me get through a tough day (yes, codeine. 50mg). Whenever I take opiates, they do not sedate me. I feel like finally accomplishing things that are usually too much for me to handle. I'm not clinically depressed in any way, just rather.. unmotivated.

I don't care about getting high every day, that's not my craving. I just want to know if I am I just dreaming a of medium-dose opiate use for a good portion of my life and will the tolerance eventually make me feel absolutely nothing from this, or if this is actually possible.

Any input is appreciated.

I don't know. I'm one of those people that really took to opiates, kind of young. There are people that can have'em sit in their medicine cabinets, no big deal. The trouble with me, is, that if there arond I'll do'em. And if get them daily, much of the *rest* of my day is spent marking time. Waiting on the moment I'll again use dope.

And I'm not laughing at your codeine use. I can remember back in my biker days, when even a couple of tylenol #3's, mixed with a couple beers, gave me a little buzz. But it seems like I got "sensitized" to'em or something, and that it takes more and stronger opiates to get me to that same happy place I once got to pretty easy.

I think the reason so many of us start saying "be careful!" and all that, as none of us started out looking to get a habit, or wanting to get strung out either. Most people often start just noticing that some piddlly ass pills the doc or dentist gave them, made them feel better. I actually *did* start out on heroin, but I was in the military, far away, and there was a pot shortage, blah blah blah. But when I got back to the states, I didn't get strung out for a long time. Got some percodans from a dentist, liked that, did a few every day. Once had a bike wreck, got some empirin #3's (codeine), did a few every day. A few years later, some cat offered me a dilaudid, in a syringe, I thought "this looks interesting..." and from then on it was over....

So you know, have fun, just be aware, most of us found out we were addicts, *long* after the point of no return.

Best wishes

[Guinea Pig]

Thanks DuckFeet. I'm educated enough to know about all the dangers, and I appreciate the good wishes greatly. It is sad that knowledge itself is simply not enough to keep yourself from going over the edge, if there even is one. We all set limits for ourselves, and we end up breaking them. I know that I would know what to administer to a person in a case of OD, but I don't know if I would not be able to get a habit.

For example, I'm not regularly taking opiates, but when I got hold of 10 20mg oxys those were gone within 2 days. I guess I'm lucky that right now I have absolutely no tolerance and don't seek to acquire opiates actively, but nobody knows down the road. Maybe I'll just become a doctor with an unlimited supply (although House is seeming to have trouble with that part) ;)

[HistoryofMadness]

Duckeet, why do we have to pay? It doesn't seem fair that I have had to suffer my whole life then finally find a little happiness (well somedays alot of Happiness:D ) and then have to eventually 'pay the piper' .

I am so jealous of these people I see, walking around whistling, and being productive and the only thing they are on is life. What "past-life-wrong' am I paying for now?. I keep telling myself that I'm not going to let it get out of hand...Well today I was a BAD girl. I broke one of my rules. I took about 5 or 6 norcos. I was popping them so often I don't even remember how many I took. I don't feel guilty now, but tomorrow morning I will feel like dirt. and I have a very scarce supply, so that will mean I will have to really cut back for the next week. This whole thing SUCKS!

Thanks for reading my rant. Best wishes to you too. :)

Well, first off, there are many causes for depression, and opiates are not a wholesale cure for it... probably they help folks with dopamine / endorphin shortages, but not others. I don't know if you guys knew this or not, but MOST people who take opiates do not experience euphoria.

As for it being an anti-D:

I think that opiates have potential for treating depression, but the problem is two-fold:

first, the more you take the better you feel... but you can only feel good to a point, and then you're out of the 'feel good' chems.... which causes depression... and t as william blake so eloquently put it, You never know what is enough, until you know what is more than enough.

secondly, once you have been treated enough to bring your life around, get healthy and happy, when you stop the meds, you will go through hell and rebound depression...

so I think a low-level of opiates combined with a dopamine agonist (like bupropion), might be great AND

according to crazymeds.org (http://crazymeds.org) (see it if you haven't!) there are lots of dopamine agonist anti-Ds, but only one in the US (check out the wellbutrin section for why) ... I've actually considered importing different ones to see if any help me more

problem lies here: if your depression means your supply, then you will never (want to) get better... besides just like they can help, opiates can also cause depression.. and lastly, ask our good friend opiobsessed if long-term or high-level opiate use treats depression...

so sure, they help, on the short-term, but if nothing else the black market will ruin your life and eventually kill you... and if we could treat ourselves as humans, doctors would have never evolved into the society, so...

I say stop using your depression as an excuse to get high and avoid your life... get real help... if opiates really did the right thing, junkies would never suicide (and we know they do)...

also learn to recognize the difference between short-term euphoria (opiates) and the long-term feeling of successfully-treated depression

[NineLives]

<snip>
I don't know if you guys knew this or not, but MOST people who take opiates do not experience euphoria.
<snip>


Interesting post, HistoryOfMadness. I am curious about the above statement and who does/does not experience euphoria. do you have any links you can provide? I am not doubting you, I would just like to see what the parameters were for the study.

When you said "MOST people who take opiates do not experience euphoria" I am assuming you are talking about people who are not addicts. If a person isn't an addict, there is only one reason (well, the most common reason) to take an opiate and that's because they are in pain. I have seen studies showing how people who are in pain don't experience euphoria and can verify that from my own experiences. I have seen explanations saying the opiate gets "all used up" for the pain without enough being "left over" for a high. When I am in severe pain, my opiates will not get me high at all; but once the pain has settled down some, the same dose will get me high as a kite!

I can understand that most people would not feel high because their bodies are too busy being in pain, but have any studies been done giving an opiate to "normal" people when they aren't in pain? Without the pain, perhaps they would experience euporia then.

[jacky]

Jonathan Ott, in his book Pharmacophilia cites data that reports roughly 10% of people experience "euphoria" from opiates.

it is also interesting that certian people lack proper enzyme levels to convert hydrocodone and codeine into the respective metabolites, either causing an allergic reaction, or no painkilling effects.

I think enzyme levels might have something to do with addiction to opiates perhaps...or maybe 10% of the population has endogenous opioid deficiency, and thus added opiates creates a feeling of euphoria, which perhaps is just the experience of relief.

someday soon a person will be able to go get bloodwork on endogenous opioid peptide levels, such as people might for serotonin levels etc. maybe that science will finally allow some people to be prescribed opiates or enzyme enhancers legally.

I know that in ONE study, 10% of people given higher than normal doses of loperamide experienced mild euphoria.

opiates/opioid are amazing neurotransmitters, most people in the world have no idea that we are ALL OPIATE dependant....without endogenous opiate compounds we would not have the focus, memory, and motivational drive that we do in our normal "non drugged" lives.

good book by a neuro-researcher is called " zen and the brain" by James H Austin, a zen practitioner and researcher. he describes opioid and dopaminergic activitys in the brain and how they relate to function of the body.
One study outlined in his book entails the creation with dry ice, of permenant lesions on the brain of volunteers. all opiate addicts. the creation of the lesion in most cases relieved withdrawl symptoms from opiates, and in some addicts, long lasting opiate like euphoria. the lesions are about the size of a pea. basically this is brain surgery, but the wording I am sure scares most people off. instead of lesions, I am sure the pharm industry might come up with a computer chip invention that performs a similiar action.

but back on the subject of euphoria...many people cannot tolerate opiates other than in cases of pain relief, and many people will take ibuprofen or aspirin instead. It is similiar I think to how amphetamines effect some people, or cocaine. cocaine can put some people to sleep, and in cases of ADHD, they may not feel even large doses of cocaine. i knew one such person. he could fire up a speedball, and not feel the coke.

I think the lack of euphoria experienced with opiates in most people helps to create misconceptions maybe about what exactly it is that we opiophile are so obsessed/pleased with concerning opiate use. I like them cause I can fall asleep without laying in bed for a few hours, they help me control my appetite, give me focusing ability better than amphetamines (see my opioidopamine posts or the above mentioned book for opioid/dopamine interaction), and help me day to day with depression.

[Frozen]

Duckfeet, Prettypoppy, and now Jacky: I must express how thoroughly impressed I am with your considerable knowledge on the endogenous opioid-depression-opioid connection. This thread has got to be the highest level, best informed discussion I've ever seen on this crucial topic- and you have achieved it despite the repeated efforts of one individual here to divert and disrupt this potentially life-saving discussion.

Regarding blood testing to gauge endogenous opioid levels, I've been informed by multiple sources that such a test already exists, and is commonly practiced in Beijing.
I started an NAABT thread on this exact question: http://www.naabt.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=889

I have a couple more questions now. Hopefully one of you might know the answers:
1) LDN ( http://www.gazorpa.com/interview.html ). Does anyone know if this technique has ever been successful in the treatment of refractory depression? There's just so little data out there on this topic.

2) An easier question: I know that oxy is generally considered to be superior to heroin... but I'm not asking about getting high- I'm asking about depression treatment.
Duckfeet, prettypoppy or Jacky- I'd really like to know what you think. In your opinion, does heroin get the job done as well as oxy?

3) I've recently faced the fact that in my case, while bupe is a million times more useful than any of the 'legitimate' antidepressants, the sub just isn't cutting it as a complete solution. I'm afraid that means I'm completely screwed- because if bupe isn't my answer, that means I don't have a 'no tolerance build up' solution, and I don't have a legal solution. I believe you're in the same boat as I am, so I have to ask: How have you been able to cope with this harsh reality?

Thanks in advance for helping advance scientific progress, in an area which the 'real' scientists have so badly neglected.

[OhJoy]

Well, first off, there are many causes for depression, and opiates are not a wholesale cure for it... probably they help folks with dopamine / endorphin shortages, but not others. I don't know if you guys knew this or not, but MOST people who take opiates do not experience euphoria.

As for it being an anti-D:

I think that opiates have potential for treating depression, but the problem is two-fold:

first, the more you take the better you feel... but you can only feel good to a point, and then you're out of the 'feel good' chems.... which causes depression... and t as william blake so eloquently put it, You never know what is enough, until you know what is more than enough.

secondly, once you have been treated enough to bring your life around, get healthy and happy, when you stop the meds, you will go through hell and rebound depression...

so I think a low-level of opiates combined with a dopamine agonist (like bupropion), might be great AND

according to crazymeds.org (http://crazymeds.org) (see it if you haven't!) there are lots of dopamine agonist anti-Ds, but only one in the US (check out the wellbutrin section for why) ... I've actually considered importing different ones to see if any help me more

problem lies here: if your depression means your supply, then you will never (want to) get better... besides just like they can help, opiates can also cause depression.. and lastly, ask our good friend opiobsessed if long-term or high-level opiate use treats depression...

so sure, they help, on the short-term, but if nothing else the black market will ruin your life and eventually kill you... and if we could treat ourselves as humans, doctors would have never evolved into the society, so...

I say stop using your depression as an excuse to get high and avoid your life... get real help... if opiates really did the right thing, junkies would never suicide (and we know they do)...

also learn to recognize the difference between short-term euphoria (opiates) and the long-term feeling of successfully-treated depression

Thanks for your post, but I wanted to at least report my experience so far. I've been on continual use of hydro since June. I feel that I am still able to function at a steady dose of 120mg per day. Granted some days I have a couple more, but I've been really okay with taking a two day break and coming back to my dose. I still get what I need out of a 10mg pill. I'm able to go about my day w/o depression.

Believe me... it's not a matter of avoiding my life, I just wasn't born with the brain chemistry to deal with life. I'm not using my depression as an excuse to get 'high' because I don't feel 'high'. I feel normal and w/o the opiates I want to die.

I don't believe anyone can truely understand depression until they have walked in those shoes. And just for the record, there is no 'real help' out there. I've been on the SSRI and the Tricyclics etc and nothing has worked. This was not an easy way out of depression for me, it was the only way out.

[Dan Steely]

Hi OhJoy, glad to hear you are doing well. I suspect that your depression may be somewhat unique. i'm pretty sure a lot of people can be helped by things other than opiates. I do know a couple of guys that swear by wellbutrin and such. that doesnt mean that i think they should work for you though. there probably is a certain percentage of the population that could really benefit from opiates. It is a shame that ignorance fear and politics will prohibit the exploration of opiate treatment for depression. Sometimes democracy is little more than mob rule, and it is a pretty ignorant mob out there. If it seems like people dont understand what you are dealing with, you are right, only you really do. HOM's post is probably very appropriate for a lot of people though. As is yours. Best wishes.

[Duckfeet]

<snip>

An easier question: I know that oxy is generally considered to be superior to heroin... but I'm not asking about getting high- I'm asking about depression treatment. Duckfeet, prettypoppy or Jacky- I'd really like to know what you think. In your opinion, does heroin get the job done as well as oxy?

3) I've recently faced the fact that in my case, while bupe is a million times more useful than any of the 'legitimate' antidepressants, the sub just isn't cutting it as a complete solution. I'm afraid that means I'm completely screwed- because if bupe isn't my answer, that means I don't have a 'no tolerance build up' solution, and I don't have a legal solution. I believe you're in the same boat as I am, so I have to ask: How have you been able to cope with this harsh reality?

Thanks in advance for helping advance scientific progress, in an area which the 'real' scientists have so badly neglected


I snipped the stuff I had no answer for. And on this, I'm pretty predictable: Heroin is better, but it brings worse problems. Since it's illegal here, I have all that struggle, and another bust would be "life" for me. Oxys--and hydros--are available, and act reasonably good, but I have to lie to get them, use pain meds to self medicate. But I'm an *addict* too, whatever that means. To me it means I *might* take just four hydros a day, to alleviate depression...but odds are, I'll take two in the morning...feel *almost* good, so I'll decide to take four in the afternoon....then, since I know I'm going to run out anyway before the end of the month, might as well take *eight* that evening. so, why lie, yes, hydros or oxys work, make me happier, but I never have enough. I would be on heroin maintenance if it were offered here, or somewhere reasonably close, but it's not. so I make do. Never totally happy, but I haven't been to jail in a while either. It's a tradeoff, IMO.

The so called anti-depressants have never worked for me, from elavil to zoloft, it's a joke. I don't even think I'm depressed. I think it's philosophical--not that that changes anything, or that any doc I've ever met buys it. "Oh, o.k. duckfeet, since it's philosophical we'll just put you on dialudid maintenance..."

I don't like methadone. It makes me pretty happy first week, then I seem to get lethargic on it, right about the time I notice that all I want to do on it is eat ice cream and feel sorry for myself. Fuck that. Other people have good experiences with it. I'm glad it is available, but it doesn't work for me. A large part of that is also that I hate the whole degrading clinic setup.

Right now I too am on buprenorphine. I'm on subutex, 8mg a day. It's better than nothing, got me off methadone, no kicking. But I notice that subs don't get rid of craving, don't really make me feel any different than how I feel after about two months off of everything. But...all week I've been out bodysurfing bigass Northwest swell we've got hammerin' this coast...on methadone, I'd probably just be finishing a pint of Ben and Jerry's "Phish,"...hmmm, that sounds good!

So, as you said, it's a "harsh reality." How I cope with it, is, probably same as you...be pissed that society I live in is an unjust motherfucker, and try to find ways around it....but hell, if I lived anywhere else they'ed a probably hung me a long time ago...

Best wishes

[tptptp]

Well, first off, there are many causes for depression, and opiates are not a wholesale cure for it... probably they help folks with dopamine / endorphin shortages, but not others. I don't know if you guys knew this or not, but MOST people who take opiates do not experience euphoria.


Huh? Wha? I havent known a single person who HASNT experienced a good-feeling (depending on how exactly you define euphoria). They make my friend feel pretty good, but not like OMG WOOHOO, if thats what you're talking about ok I understand.

But I haven't known a single person who didnt enjoy a painkiller, unless maybe they were in extreme pain and/or on a low dose so the pain was just consuming the med...

[tptptp]

I say stop using your depression as an excuse to get high and avoid your life... get real help... if opiates really did the right thing, junkies would never suicide (and we know they do)...

Ok this is another thing.... this is subjective I guess but my friend started using because he was bored/depressed etc. etc. etc. but the only reason he feels he is addicted and continues to use is that because his days are so much easier and the depression is very very repressed. The only feeling he enjoys is the lack of depression which I guess you could also consider the "high" so its really subjective.....is someones addiction a)to the antidepressive feeling or b)the high? Aren't they basically the same thing?

As far as junkies comitting suicide, I would say that alot more of the reasons for suicide would have to do with the consequences of opiates being illegal, rather than the drug itself. Stealing, regrets, prostitution, jail, withdrawals, etc. etc. not the drug itself if it were to be used in a medical setting.

But I will say that I agree opiates long term probably only have limited use for depression, but definitely one that should be studied because even the limited use is probably a very powerful one.

[Coddfish]

I don't like methadone. It makes me pretty happy first week, then I seem to get lethargic on it, right about the time I notice that all I want to do on it is eat ice cream and feel sorry for myself. Fuck that. Other people have good experiences with it. I'm glad it is available, but it doesn't work for me. A large part of that is also that I hate the whole degrading clinic setup.


holy crap. you have just concisely enumerated every problem i have with methadone. i put on like 40 pounds without even realizing it, and almost all because of blue bell (a southern brand) chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream. the shit would go on special, 2 half gallons for 5 bucks. i'd buy 2 like every other day. breakfast, snack and dinner. maybe the ice cream dons (ie., ben, jerry, breyer, edy, gifford, etc.) are incahoots with the meth racket.

and fuck the clinics.

subs have been a godsend to me. 1-2 mg daily over the last year has helped me lose 50lbs, get my sex drive back, and just let me reclaim my life. i hate to think of where i was a year ago: 32 going on 72, on done and ready to nip it in the bud. i hate done; to me, the shit is poison. but if it works for some people, then it works for some people.

[Duckfeet]

The reason this topic never quite dies is because it touches on all kinds of different areas. I think everything we know, or pretend to know, is subjective. And there lies the problem: If I say I'm not happy, who's going to prove I *am* happy? Nobody. Human feelings, beliefs, all that is arguable. And who's to say I need to "deal with reality" anyway. It just *sounds* good, doesn't mean anything. Opiates made me feel better. I like that. Whether I'm clinically "depressed" or not, depends on which shrink you talk to, and whether or not I have medical insurance. I live in a culture--a world, really--where there are still religious undertones to everything we do. Once I would have been considered weak for liking heroin, a sinner. Then I was considered criminal. Now I'm considered--if I'm lucky--sick, if not...still criminal. I'd kind of like to *not* be considered at all, and repeal all laws dealing with "crimes" against me own body.

Not in my country, not in my lifetime.

I know one of our major political parties talks more compassionately than the other one. But I've never seen it matter too much. Drug laws, wars...Good old liberal California has some of the harshest laws I know of. And beloved JFK and his vice-president sent me and my bros off to fight and die in the last useless war.

"This time tomorrow
Reckon where I'll be
Hadna been for Grayson
I'da been in Tennessee."

Duckfeet
uselessly libertarian...
babbling

[Duckfeet]

holy crap. you have just concisely enumerated every problem i have with methadone. i put on like 40 pounds without even realizing it, and almost all because of blue bell (a southern brand) chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream. the shit would go on special, 2 half gallons for 5 bucks. i'd buy 2 like every other day. breakfast, snack and dinner. maybe the ice cream dons (ie., ben, jerry, breyer, edy, gifford, etc.) are incahoots with the meth racket.

and fuck the clinics.

subs have been a godsend to me. 1-2 mg daily over the last year has helped me lose 50lbs, get my sex drive back, and just let me reclaim my life. i hate to think of where i was a year ago: 32 going on 72, on done and ready to nip it in the bud. i hate done; to me, the shit is poison. but if it works for some people, then it works for some people.

Yeah, I'm on subs too. 8mg daily. I think they probably work really good for some people, people who really are trying to get away from opiates, have other things in their lives, and don't adjust well to methadone.

I think my problem is just me. I had bunches of years of no opiate buzz, no drugs, alcohol at all and I was happy. Now I just want to get loaded. I can't defend it...it's just what it is. And I need to move somewhere eventually where I can score heroin either legally, or without the draconian "3 strikes" law hanging over my head, like it is out here...

One day...

[renton]

I think the reason this topic has become so popular is because the majority I would say of people who use opiates find they help so much with pain period, whether it's mental or physical pain. I started taking them for back pain but found they helped the emotional pain i get from depression. One thing I've noticed though after using for awhile is I tend to lose the joy in things I used to enjoy cause none of it compares to the feeling of the drug. I hear all the time from people, "man that shit gonna rob you of your ambition", I guess it's sort of true but then allot of medications for depression can do the same thing.

[djnarkotik]

all i gotta say is opiates and actually even antidepressants will help alleviate symptoms of depression, They will not cure it, or deal with the cause thereof. drugs can put you in a state where you can more effectively deal with depression, the rest has to come from you.

that being said though opiates seem to have the same purpose as a prescribed antidepressant, numb you emotions and take you out of a depressive state. Id rather be on an opiate then SSRI so i say fuck the government and thier hippocritical laws, fuck the pharmecutical commpanies that only care abouty money ill take whatever I want.

[Ickyuck]

NEVER MIX TRAMADOL AND 5-HTP. I take Tramadol nearly every night for depression, about 250-500mg. in 50-100mg. doses. One night I was more awake than normal, so I had taken a 50mg. 5-HTP. I experienced severe respiratory depression which made me afraid to fall asleep for fear of never waking up. Accompanying this was a series of mini-seizures throughout the night. Being an imperceptive strawbrain, I did not link the 5-HTP to these symptoms, and the next night, I took 5-HTP and Tramadol again. (I had taken 5-HTP before with other sleep-inducing substances, and it always served to relax and calm the mind.) Same crap happened. Maybe I just needed more 5-HTP with the Tramadol? Next night I took more 5-HTP with the Tramadol. Worse. Thought it had to be the Tramadol (strawbrain). Ended up going off of Tramadol for 6 months. Went back on Tramadol by itself. Wonderful for next 3 months. One night, took a 5-HTP with the Tramadol. Guess what happened. Strawbrain finally gets it. NEVER MIX TRAMADOL AND 5-HTP.

Wh-whoah. You mean you were prescribed them for depression? Or you just take them yourself for depression? I have never ever heard of tramadol for depression.

And just to add more junk, I have to say that "I need opiates because I'm depressed" sounds like such an excuse, with the potential for abuse. No rhyming intended. I've been battling MDD since my early teens, never quite attempted to commit suicide, but have indeed battled the most darkest days months and years. Sure opiates make me feel great, but I would have to be high constantly for the rest of my life, I mean come on now; That isn't possible, period. So I deal with it. Even if it was possible, I wouldn't want that.

[astro]

I totally agree with you on the depression thing. I feel completely balanced when taking hydro. I don't feel high, but happy. My doc put me on ritalin for adhd and i hate it. I'de like to tell him the hydro makes me feel normal. I had meningitis a few months back and i can't seem to shake it. I take one hydro in am and one in afternoon and it seems to balance, but i'm running out. What else can i take, herbal remedies? Or how can i get any more hydros. I honestly feel like a better mother/wife when i have taken them. Any good websites?

Kratom tea

[jacky]

in response to reardone metals post...
thanks for the kind words....
I think that the longer acting the opioid, the better...I would rather use morphine for depression than heroin, and if I could extend the legs on morphine..I would.
I would only consider getting a pea sized lesion on the top of my brain if it doesnt augment the effects of the exogenous opioids I like to take.

that is beautiful, china has a better hold on this endogenous opioid deficiency subject perhaps through use of this test...
years ago they were executing junkies... now?

maybe the opioid/opiate treatment for depression subject should focus a minute on tramadol and effexor models.
BOTH effect the same neurotransmitter systems, opioid/dopaminergic/serotonin...

compare the compounds structures and chemical names...
the compounds are very, very similiar

one can be prescribed for pain relief,
and the other for depression.

I have used both extensively, and I have gone through withdrawls upon the termination of taking both compounds independently of one another.

it seems many antidepressants cause a type of withdrawl symptom, symptoms really can vary, but the symptoms are there.

I really dont need antidepressants unless we start calling opiates/opioid antidepressants, I love the opioid/opiate effect compared to antidepressants.

I can tolerate buprenorphine, but dont like to take it for long periods of time. plus some of my freinds have found the drug to drag them down long term, and the withdrawls when quitting bup were long.

but I would be very happy if any opioid/opiate besided effexor gets approved for use in treating depression.

[Frozen]

I didn't even realize that effexor & tramadol were approximately the same substance, but now that you mention it: I once went on effexor for just 2 or 3 days. I had to stop the medication, because urinating became nearly impossible. That's the exact same effect I got, the time I tried swallowing a handful of tramadols.

How about cymbalta & welbutrin? Are those similar to tramadol as well?

EDIT: After reading the wikipedia entry on effexor, the pieces seem to be falling into place nicely, all consistent with my theories on endogenous opioid deficiency.
________________________
From wiki:

"Venlafaxine is structurally and pharmacologically related to the analgesic tramadol... "


"Venlafaxine is an effective anti-depressant for many persons; however, it seems to be especially effective for those with treatment-resistant depression. Some of these persons have taken two or more antidepressants prior to venlafaxine with no relief. Patients suffering with severe long-term depression typically respond better to venlafaxine than other drugs. However, venlafaxine has been reported to be more difficult to discontinue than other anti-depressants. In addition, a September 2004 Consumer Reports study ranked venlafaxine as the most effective among six commonly prescribed antidepressants."
___________________________

No wonder effexor seems to work better on TRD than all the other approved antidepressants- If it's the only one similar to opioids, it would be the only one to provide an endogenous opioid brain with a substance nearly identical to what is lacking!

[Frozen]

That last sentence should read:

No wonder effexor seems to work better on TRD than all the other approved antidepressants- If it's the only one similar to opioids, it would be the only one to provide an endogenous opioid deficient brain with a substance nearly identical to what is lacking!