Heroin Maintenance Ending

[Duckfeet]

I get all sentimental when I read about NAOMI's pilot heroin maintenance program in Canada...as Nick put it, in another thread, it was a "ray of hope," to those of us who have long paid hard prices for our love/addiction to heroin and other opiates...

I first came on to Opiophile asking if there was *anywhere* an old junky like me--I'm 57--could get on heroin maintenance , and Nick patiently laid out the possibilities. I had some money, and had contacted NAOMI, and it seemed like I qualified, so I flew up there, as you *had* to have a local address in Vancouver, within a short distance of the program.

I was stopped at the airport in Vancouver and refused entry because of felonies from the seventies, and walked back to U.S. side w/armed guard, and sent home...

I don't want to get into my whole gig right now, I've posted enough about my trials and travails in this area...myself I'm back on methadone maintenance--70mg daily--and doing best I can...but it appears that even tho it has been successful, no matter how you measure it, conservative in Canada--and the U.S.--are seeing that it ends...RIP...


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Feature: Western Hemisphere's Only Heroin Maintenance Program Coming to an End


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from Drug War Chronicle (http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle), Issue #539, 6/13/08 (http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/539)
Every day for 15 months, Vancouver heroin addict Rob Scott Vincent, 36, went into a nondescript building on the city's Downtown Eastside where a nurse would hand him a syringe loaded with pharmaceutical grade heroin. Sitting at a sterile, stainless steel counter, Vincent would inject himself with the drug, then sit in an equally sterile waiting room for awhile as the drug took hold before heading out to do his daily business.

http://stopthedrugwar.org/files/hastings.jpg
Hastings Street, on Vancouver's East Side (courtesy VANDU)
Vincent was one of 251 participants -- 192 in Vancouver and the rest in Montreal -- in the only heroin maintenance program in the hemisphere, a pilot program known as the North American Opiate Maintenance Initiative (http://www.naomistudy.ca/) (NAOMI). Originally intended to operate in both Canada and the US, the US component never got off the ground in the drug war atmosphere there. And now, NAOMI is winding down in Vancouver and Montreal. The last handful of participants in the program will get their last fixes at the end of this month.

In the program, which was limited to long-time addicts over 25 who had failed to kick the habit at least twice in previous treatment tries, participants used treatments of oral methadone or injected heroin. A small percentage received a pharmaceutical opiate called Dilaudid. Participants also received counseling and other support services. The Canadian federal government (then under control of the Liberals) funded the project with $1.8 million and agreed to allow the importation of pharmaceutical heroin for the project.

Similar pilot opiate maintenance projects in Switzerland, Germany and the Netherlands produced results showing reductions in criminality, drug use, and economic costs to society, and increases in health, stability, and employability among participants. NAOMI researchers and supporters are hoping it will produce similar results. While the final research report from NAOMI is not expected until the fall, preliminary results suggest the findings will be similar to those in Europe.

In a March briefing paper (http://www.naomistudy.ca/pdfs/March2008NAOMIUpdate.pdf), NAOMI reported that 85% of participants taking injected heroin had stayed with the program for 12 months, that the treatment had proven to be "extremely safe," and that there had been no security issues or evidence that NAOMI had had a deleterious impact on the neighborhood. The paper also suggested that the program would show a positive economic impact.

Canada estimates that each heroin addict costs the country $45,000 a year. The studies of European opiate maintenance programs report that they save host countries $20,000 a year for each participant.

"What we know now is that we were able to recruit people with long-term dependence on heroin who repeatedly failed other treatments and who had many health and social problems when they entered," said Dr. David Marsh, one of the co-investigators and lead clinical physician for the study. "From a doctor's perspective, whether they were treated with methadone or heroin, many of them improved dramatically. We'll know from the formal research results how much and in what ways they improved."

The provision of methadone or heroin was only part of the treatment, Marsh said. "The medication is a component of a broader package of primary care, mental health care, addiction counseling, and case management to provide participants with access to a range of welfare and other benefits," said Marsh. "We work with people to try to manage the negative consequences of their drug use and help them improve their lives."

Vincent had been addicted to opiates for nearly 15 years when he decided to participate in NAOMI. "I wanted to see if it could better my life, and it did," he said. "It helped me slowly wean down. I'm still using, but not even one-third of what I was using."

Vincent's stint in NAOMI ended in March. Since then, he has had to return to the streets to find his drugs. "It's not too bad," he said. "I mostly use morphine pills, and I pick up a pill for $5 bucks every morning and I'm good for the day." Vincent pays for his fixes by collecting and recycling cans. But sometimes, he can't find what he wants and has to spend time searching for a substitute opiate -- heroin, dilaudid, whatever is around. "It's usually readily available," he said, "but sometimes I have to scrounge around."

Getting participants completely off opiates wasn't the be-all and end-all of the pilot program, said Marsh. "Patients benefit in a lot of ways," he said. "Some were able to stop taking illegal opiates, and in my view, if a patient is prescribed methadone and is using it properly, I consider that a success. Methadone treatment has been available for many years, and there are thousands of studies showing its benefits."

The Vancouver Area Network of Drug Users (http://www.vandu.org/) (VANDU) was one of the key supporters of NAOMI, despite its complaints about the restrictiveness of the standards for qualifying for the study. The program needs to continue, VANDU said.

"Regardless of the parameters they set that made it tough to qualify, this is a badly needed service and it's a shame it's just a pilot project and is not continuing," said VANDU president Richard Utendale. "I've talked to a lot of people who have been helped by it. They were able to improve their day-to-day lives by not having to struggle to feed their drug habits. NAOMI provided a safe place and support, and participants didn't have to worry about being jacked up by the police or ripped off or sold inferior products or dope with adulterants."

The Downtown Eastside, where both VANDU and NAOMI are located is the epicenter of one of the largest hard drug scenes in the hemisphere. The program had an impact on the area, said Utendale. "I think NAOMI also improved the neighborhood, with less street and property crime."

There was a downside to NAOMI, though, said Utendale. "The drawback is that when people are finished with the program, they have to go back on the street and resort to the same old means of getting their drugs. That's why this needs to be permanent."

Vincent said he wished the program could continue. "I would most definitely participate in a permanent program," he said. "It was very, very helpful. It's a lot easier to quit or reduce my intake with pharmaceutical grade heroin. Most of the stuff on the street is cut with other things -- that's why I like to use morphine. I can't see any reason for not keeping this open," he said. "NAOMI is a medical facility, just like Insite [the Vancouver safe injection site]. They should not shut it down."

But that is what is going to happen at the end of this month. Last November, doctors appealed on compassionate grounds to extend the program on behalf of five participants. So far there has been no agreement from either Health Canada or the regional health authority.

"Dreams are free," Utendale sighed, "but the way things are looking right now, this isn't going forward without some changes in Ottawa."

Marsh said it was "premature" to try to predict what would happen. "But I'm optimistic we'll find funding and get the regulatory approval at some point to apply the lessons we've learned from this study," he said.

But given the current Conservative federal government's ideological opposition to harm reduction, as evidenced by its losing battle to shut down Vancouver's safe injection site, it is going to take a new national election before there is any chance that Canada will follow the Europeans' lead and make heroin maintenance part of a broader public health policy.

[tasteuvheaven]

wow...I learn something new everyday. I had no idea such a hing had ever existed. sucks it isn't goin to keep operating. A shame.

[upstate_007]

"I've talked to a lot of people who have been helped by it. They were able to improve their day-to-day lives by not having to struggle to feed their drug habits. NAOMI provided a safe place and support, and participants didn't have to worry about being jacked up by the police or ripped off or sold inferior products or dope with adulterants."

Seems like a no brainer to me. Good for the people in the program, good for the community, good for law enforcement.........ahhh I see now. With no junkies to bust all the time, how can you validate the budget. Hmmm.

[starglazer33]

Great to hear from you again and even better )glad( to hear you are doing well.

Man at the very least its a start and maybe eventually with enough proper reports of positive outcomes and feedback maybe one day soon there may be a trial run with perhaps an indefinite course of action in mind. Everything that seems to make sensce and work usually takes time (too long) to come to fruition. Thats not to mention the stigma advocates and angry conservatives that tend to hold on to as much of the anger and self loathing that they all feel compelled to share.

A ray of hope is almost impossible to stop, slow down and make it unnecessarily difficult, seems to be there main accomplishments. I'm reminded of just how long the L.E.A.P took to come about. Now even longer will it take to disassemble all the misinformation that has been implanted in the herd's mentality.

Got a buzz just bear with me and i apologize if i am incomprehensive.

JUst wanna say thanks for the thread i (as well as many others miss you) always glad to read your thread/posts.

We've come a long way which means we can and most certainly will go a lot further.
"Whole lotta luv" .....Sg33

[Duckfeet]

I know just recently San Francisco started a needle room--I forget what they call them--but anyway, that's what got started in Vancouver, and finally, for a while anyway, we were seen as human beings....

[Chicago]

This really sounds great!!!
But I can not see this happening in the U.S. just b/c we all no where the drugs are being made & grown, & then converted into heroin. So if there was such a war on drugs they would go str8 for the poppy feilds, or the labs, but no!

Then the finished product has to get into the U.S.
It happens to never be a problem w/this? Why! B/c the U.S. is helping these hard drugs in here.

What I'm saying is, MONEY TALKS, Gov't knows whee it comes from & how to stop it but don't, they allow a certain amount in & some they destroy to show they are also doing there jobs.
So if u someone that was trying to bring 3kilo's to the u.s. don't think "hey they want this here" yea u might make it by customes, but there are people paying large amounts to the gov't to bring this in.

One time I was watching this story on the history channel, This man was comming out saying how the gov't was paying him to brink ton's of coke into the u.s. in his plane & him flying it. Now the gov't said they just wanted to see how hard this was & if customes or boarder would catch this. YEA OK, anyway this went on for over 10yrs of this man flying in the gov't coke. What do you think they did w/all that coke, is there a room somewhere right now w/2million metric tons of coke added up after the ten years, HELL NO, they push that shit on the streets to the big big time dealers.

I hope I made sense on this matter on why I do not think this would ever happen in the u.s. & also how the gov't is supporting the war on drugs. I could go on & on, why does the gov't still have so many soliders in afghan or bordering state pakistan, when the real deaths are happening in iraq. But I'm sorry I hate to disscuss religon & politics, u can never win unless u fight b/c everyone is entitled to there opinion.

Good find D.F.

[The_Highwayman]

As longt as there is "war on drugs or more so a business for a "war" on drugs....governements will focus their goals to making money and not helping people......

[SurfRat]

Probly doesn't help US having it's foot in Canada's ass most of the time, and them lovin' every minute of it, but maybe it wouldn't matter.

I had been optimistic after Nick posted about the court upholding the safe injection site, but I guess there's different programs...

It doesn't look good but you don't ever really know how things will go, sometimes good things can happen that you don't expect or in ways that you cannot see.

[irish]

The DEA puts a lot of pressure on the Canadian government over our drug laws. When they were talking about legalizing marijuana there were threats that the border would be shut down. I would be amazed if there were no meetings behind the scenes with U.S. law-enforcement over this project. Vancouver has a huge heroin problem and has been really pro-active in finding solutions for od's and crime, but unfortunately it isn't their call ultimately.

Great to see you back Duckfeet, glad you're doing alright.

[nick]

What really sucks is that the guys on the NAOMI trial are just being dumped on the street.


There is a legal challenge to closing NAOMI.5 addicts are taking this to court.



On the plus side,INSITE is now safe for the moment.

[Duckfeet]

I agree Nick, and it ain't over...it just doesn't look too good. And San Francisco at least has something like Insite, and I figure if it ever happens here, it will happen there....

What really sucks is that the guys on the NAOMI trial are just being dumped on the street.


There is a legal challenge to closing NAOMI.5 addicts are taking this to court.



On the plus side,INSITE is now safe for the moment.

[nick]

I agree Nick, and it ain't over...it just doesn't look too good. And San Francisco at least has something like Insite, and I figure if it ever happens here, it will happen there....

Agreed SF is most likely in the U.S.


Don't give up on diamorphine/hydromorphone in Canada.The decision to allow INSITE to continue has major ramifications because it suggests that human rights come before enforcement.
The 5 guys gong to trial have a lot of support from a lot of folks,from VANDU,UNDUN to major political parties.

[Duckfeet]

True, and maybe if things change on this side of the border, Mexico can resume trying to legalize dope for users, and Canada will be less under the gun...gotta keep hope alive....


Agreed SF is most likely in the U.S.


Don't give up on diamorphine/hydromorphone in Canada.The decision to allow INSITE to continue has major ramifications because it suggests that human rights come before enforcement.
The 5 guys gong to trial have a lot of support from a lot of folks,from VANDU,UNDUN to major political parties.

[nick]

True, and maybe if things change on this side of the border, Mexico can resume trying to legalize dope for users, and Canada will be less under the gun...gotta keep hope alive....

Look on the bright side bro.If you'd got on the NAOMI trial you'd be back on the street now and with a taste for pure dope.I posted a link to an interview somewhere on opiophile(I think in my thread about INSITE) and it has an interview with a guy who's been using for a long time,was on the trial and is now back on the street.It's heartbreaking.

[Duckfeet]

Yep, it's so stupid...we put billions into killing people, and won't legalize dope, and consequently destroy no only generations like mine, but also whole countries fall apart, like Colombia and Mexico...just a fucked up deal....

Look on the bright side bro.If you'd got on the NAOMI trial you'd be back on the street now and with a taste for pure dope.I posted a link to an interview somewhere on opiophile(I think in my thread about INSITE) and it has an interview with a guy who's been using for a long time,was on the trial and is now back on the street.It's heartbreaking.

[Boudica]

It is so very nice ta see you're back "home" again, Duckfeet. You've been sorely missed by this lass, and me heart did lil jump when I saw you postin' again.

As for the subject at hand, it is another incredibly sad example, of how government interference dessimates so many lives. Under the "tree" of government, the same can be said for all the "branches", like DEA, ATFA, all the way down to local LE. They have no concept of Humanity, and continue to throw extreme punishments upon those guilty of only one thing, when you get down to it, and that, would be the "crime" of being human.

As humans, we are not perfect, we are not immune to looking toward chemical ways of handling life. We all have our frailties, and defects of character, if you can call them even that. I don't believe in "defects" of character. I just believe in parts of our "character" that are broken. It is in these very things, among many others, that we ARE human, so by denying those that have those broken parts, what they need to operate in this world without feeling the pain of said parts, is, in fact, inhuman.

It is no different than denying diabetics access to insulin, or cancer patients access to proper care and management for their pain. Yet, if government did this, there would be public outrage so out of control, I"m sure the whitehouse would be mobbed and riots would ensue, because such acts would be viewed as absolutely insane, cruel, and without any valid reason whatsoever for taking away what allows those with these illnesses to survive.

Herion/opiate addicted people, are, imo, absolutely no different, yet they are denied access to medication and proper care, that they need for their very survival. Why, I keep askin', is this concept so fucking hard to get across to the powers that be, and, to the masses of right-wing conservatives, thumpin' upon their bibles as they scream and carry on about "all these dope addicts who are ruinin' America!" About how anyone with opiate addiction is the scourge of society and the sole reason for our children bein' corrupted and the nation in ruins. Gotta blame somebody, right? And while they're pointin' their asinine finger at addicts who are struggling to survive, because of their narrow, blind-minded Prohibitionist stance on the whole issue, they are able to bypass looking at themselves, and all the wee children, Daddys and Mamas, brothers and sisters, who's lives have been completely destroyed by this self-serving, inhumane, ignorant, uneducated, asinine view. What makes me absolutely sick, is the fact that it is completely unnecessary in the first place, and easily "fixed" in the last place.

They seem to just be completely blind to the fact that children would much rather have a daddy who comes home after work (because he's ABLE to work now, due to his a.m. shot), in a happy-to-be-home state of mind (because he had his evening shot on the way home), and is able to sit down to dinner with his family, spend good times with his kids, is sweet to his wife, and is virtually living the American Dream. And why? Because of programs like NAOMI being available. THe very core of this country, the family, and the generations that will be born of the present ones, is, and has been for a very long time, at GREAT risk for total destruction and being abolished, and I do not think for one second that I'm bein' dramatic here. Just open your eyes and look around.

Isn't it interesting, how everytime someone gets even a little bit close to the right idea, something that actually WORKS, and strides in right directions are obviously being made, somebody always drops an Atom-Bomb on the whole idea. Does this not seem like some sort of heavy-duty corruption is goin' on in high places, or is it just me?

Ya THINK?

[prettypoppy]

Duck--how are you doing, my dear? The last I read you were on 40mg and going down. What has transpired since then? PM me if you don't want to post publicly--but I have been thinking about you a lot lately. BTW--I cannot figure out how to access my private messages here anymore!

[nick]

Duck--how are you doing, my dear? The last I read you were on 40mg and going down. What has transpired since then? PM me if you don't want to post publicly--but I have been thinking about you a lot lately. BTW--I cannot figure out how to access my private messages here anymore!

Sadly there are no more pms.They were stopped because...............well what do you expect from a bunch of junkys.

[Duckfeet]

Hey kiddo: yeah, no more pm's, but just what I wrote pretty much, and I had the doc perscribing me methadone for pain, but I had no self-control, so ran out, and I'm back at the clinic, at 70mg...other than that, same old thing...happy, I guess...I'll try to check in over at other site, once I calm down and get used to things...hope yer doing o.k....

df


Duck--how are you doing, my dear? The last I read you were on 40mg and going down. What has transpired since then? PM me if you don't want to post publicly--but I have been thinking about you a lot lately. BTW--I cannot figure out how to access my private messages here anymore!

[xxanxx]

This is crap. I hope that Health Canada steps in and helps the program to continue!

[nick]

And the good news.

How do you feel about Denmark,DF?

The Danish have got the funding together to start a diamorphine trial(at long last) and it will be up and running shortly.

[L0VE]

I agree that clinics are all about money. I think my city has the highest number of methadone clinics and they all started poping up some years back, why? Because pills got big and then people graduated to the cheaper version and then needed a methadone clinic. Some here actually only take cash, hello legal dealing?! WFT is that. What happened to insurance. I can not ever picture the US letting there be a h clinic, then they would have to legalize it or only make it legal to get at the clinic and then you'd end up hearing mothers complain that it's telling their kids it's ok, and yada yada. Sounded like it really helped though, because think about. Most crime is some how drug related, turf wars, robbing pharms, etc. it would all disappear for the most part if they just maintainted addicts better.

[Duckfeet]

I think I found an email addy for the HM program in Denmark, and emailed asking them if they took foreigners...many of them have an official policy of *not* taking people from other countries--Amsterdam did, for sure--simply because of the obvious: they didn't want a bunch of homeless addicts from other countries inundating their cities...I understand...

Also, I think there was a lot of noise made over all the yanks and Canadians that piled into England last time around, so most countries want to make it "locals only," kind of like the surfers here w/there beaches haha....

But other than that, don't know much about it...

They always work for all kinds of good reasons, I think it's mostly the underlying morality that just offends people....

And the good news.

How do you feel about Denmark,DF?

The Danish have got the funding together to start a diamorphine trial(at long last) and it will be up and running shortly.

[Duckfeet]

Yep: used to be methadone was free, and it was mostly heroin addicts, and most clinics were in kind of tough neighborhoods: nobody really wanted a mdone clinic on their block...kind of like soup kitchens here....but yeah, I saw the advent of "fee based" mdone clinics come out right after oxys were promoted as the latest great opiate pain reliever...if you have even a *minimum* amount of paranoia it's hard not to wonder if the same people aren't behind them both...kind of like people like me wondering if Norton doesn't have a hand in all the viruses being created...

I can bitch about methadone all day long...and *do...* but I'll tell you, when I'm *sick* I'm damn sure glad it's around...yeah, I'd *much* rather have pharmaceutical heroin or hydromorphone...but any port in a storm...


I agree that clinics are all about money. I think my city has the highest number of methadone clinics and they all started poping up some years back, why? Because pills got big and then people graduated to the cheaper version and then needed a methadone clinic. Some here actually only take cash, hello legal dealing?! WFT is that. What happened to insurance. I can not ever picture the US letting there be a h clinic, then they would have to legalize it or only make it legal to get at the clinic and then you'd end up hearing mothers complain that it's telling their kids it's ok, and yada yada. Sounded like it really helped though, because think about. Most crime is some how drug related, turf wars, robbing pharms, etc. it would all disappear for the most part if they just maintainted addicts better.

[L0VE]

Yep: used to be methadone was free, and it was mostly heroin addicts, and most clinics were in kind of tough neighborhoods: nobody really wanted a mdone clinic on their block...kind of like soup kitchens here....but yeah, I saw the advent of "fee based" mdone clinics come out right after oxys were promoted as the latest great opiate pain reliever...if you have even a *minimum* amount of paranoia it's hard not to wonder if the same people aren't behind them both...kind of like people like me wondering if Norton doesn't have a hand in all the viruses being created...

I can bitch about methadone all day long...and *do...* but I'll tell you, when I'm *sick* I'm damn sure glad it's around...yeah, I'd *much* rather have pharmaceutical heroin or hydromorphone...but any port in a storm...

Well hey, don't you find it funny that people just happened to realize that you can smash an oc and the makers had no clue? Right. You'd think they would have made it fool proof, like take methdone last all day and you can change it (I think not, correct me if I'm wrong).

[Duckfeet]

Hell, I actually remember the *real* cold shaker dilaudids, and when they came out w/the "long lasting" tamper proof *new* ones back in the early seventies, and it took any serious junky about five minutes to realize you crush'em up in a dirty five dollar bill w/yer trusty old Buck Knife, then thro'em in the rig...and there you are....yeah, I doubt their motives were pure... ;-)

Well hey, don't you find it funny that people just happened to realize that you can smash an oc and the makers had no clue? Right. You'd think they would have made it fool proof, like take methdone last all day and you can change it (I think not, correct me if I'm wrong).

[nick]

I think I found an email addy for the HM program in Denmark, and emailed asking them if they took foreigners...many of them have an official policy of *not* taking people from other countries--Amsterdam did, for sure--simply because of the obvious: they didn't want a bunch of homeless addicts from other countries inundating their cities...I understand...

Also, I think there was a lot of noise made over all the yanks and Canadians that piled into England last time around, so most countries want to make it "locals only," kind of like the surfers here w/there beaches haha....

But other than that, don't know much about it...

They always work for all kinds of good reasons, I think it's mostly the underlying morality that just offends people....

If you want to know more about the Danish programme or seriously want to consider it,I have some very good contacts in Copenhagen and I'll put you in touch.

The Danish are the only country I know of that have a junky union(just like the teamsters for junkys).There's a link for them in the Ray of hope thread,check it out bro-you'll like the opiate museum.

[pippin]

ok please dont flame me for my opinions.. we all know that as far as sensitives go around here I gotta be up on the top of the list, and I'll admit that freely. But I have to share my thoughts on HOW and IF and WHEN a program like the one in vancouver where junkies can get on maintenence H or Dillie or whatever will happen.

Right now we have thousands of souldiers in the heart of opiate land. This is where most heroin is being manufactured. Just like with vietnam, we're gonna have alot of boys (and girls) come back with one hell of a habit. (my father did, so in no way do I mean any disrespect). These kids have seen the worst things in life right before their eyes, so who's to criminalize them for seeking relief in a needle, sure the hell not any of us here. Anyways.. EVENTUALLY they're all gonna have to come home to the great ole USA.

Unfotunately we welcomed our vietnam vets with a great big kick in the ass. Some thing that even though it was decades before me, eats at me in every way I can imagine. Our current vets are getting more respect because later generations realize the horrible way we acted with our vietnam vets.

Well when our current vets come home that's going to be opening a whole flood gate of mental issues, ptsd, and drug addiction on our society. Hopefully the powers that be will see that you cannot just abandon this part of society and that jail and imprisonment and punishment isn't a productive means of helping any of this.

Hopefully (and god I'm praying for a million reasons) medical heroin maintenance might be part of the solution to this impending problem. It makes the most sense to me. Along with extensive MANDATORY mental counseling and evaluations to deal with the non drug related issues.

[Duckfeet]

Actually, since I'm one of those Vietnam Vets, it seems most of'em got off of heroin and never went back to it after vietnam was done...but for those of us that *didn't* it wasn't until the late eighties, when they started giving pensions for ptsd that all of us decided we were crazy too...

Now they're a lot more savvy, and it's a lot easier getting pensions... *plus* there isn't the stigma about "being weak" that we used to have, so they're all nutting up upon return...but I never thought it was the war....it's just life itself can drive u wankers and heroin cures everything...

oh well, even other vets hate when I say this, but I get tired of it sometimes. Enlist, go to war, come home, get $2500 a month if yer "troubled..." Nobody but a really crazy person *wouldn't* say they were nuts.... I';ve know guys actually stepped on the old "bouncing bettys" and other crap they mined the trails with, and they deserve a pension, but most guys who claim it for mental reasons aren't all that crazy.../....just broke...


ok please dont flame me for my opinions.. we all know that as far as sensitives go around here I gotta be up on the top of the list, and I'll admit that freely. But I have to share my thoughts on HOW and IF and WHEN a program like the one in vancouver where junkies can get on maintenence H or Dillie or whatever will happen.

Right now we have thousands of souldiers in the heart of opiate land. This is where most heroin is being manufactured. Just like with vietnam, we're gonna have alot of boys (and girls) come back with one hell of a habit. (my father did, so in no way do I mean any disrespect). These kids have seen the worst things in life right before their eyes, so who's to criminalize them for seeking relief in a needle, sure the hell not any of us here. Anyways.. EVENTUALLY they're all gonna have to come home to the great ole USA.

Unfotunately we welcomed our vietnam vets with a great big kick in the ass. Some thing that even though it was decades before me, eats at me in every way I can imagine. Our current vets are getting more respect because later generations realize the horrible way we acted with our vietnam vets.

Well when our current vets come home that's going to be opening a whole flood gate of mental issues, ptsd, and drug addiction on our society. Hopefully the powers that be will see that you cannot just abandon this part of society and that jail and imprisonment and punishment isn't a productive means of helping any of this.

Hopefully (and god I'm praying for a million reasons) medical heroin maintenance might be part of the solution to this impending problem. It makes the most sense to me. Along with extensive MANDATORY mental counseling and evaluations to deal with the non drug related issues.

[pippin]

actually duckfeet in the past year I have met quite a few marines who have served tours in Iraq, and sadly there is still a stigma about "manning up" and not needing counseling and all. My friends ex boyfriend has become an extremely violent alcoholic, threw me across our porch because I yelled at him for shooting a bb gun off near my then 4 month old infant. We had it out and the details are better left out. But after the fight I sat down with him to have a heart to heart and told him that he needed help and got the tough guy act. I saw it from alot of his friends too. As far as I know they have all refused mental counseling this far even since some of them have completed their terms.

I really hope your right tho duckfeet, cause if these guys are a representation, I'm scared.

[Duckfeet]

Yeah, yer rite...it's hard to tell sometimes...I mean I'm *so* tired of guys who say oh man the war was so rough I don't want to talk about it, and it turns out they were in supply or a clerk somewhere, and I guess I just feel like maybe everybody should read "Stolen Valor" and then make up their minds...Yes, some *combat* veterans had it terrible, and the repeated tours don't help...but sometimes it's just guys looking for a little cheap sympathy, or trying to appear braver than they actually were...most vietnam vets, holding a sign up...aren't...I always stop to talk, and say "where were you at?" and they always answer vaguely...

One thing: a vet never forgets "where he was at..."

And now it's *much* easier to get help if yer fucked up, IMO, but again I know that some vets are crazy...but often they were crazy before they enlisted...and now that there is zero money in "getting better," hell, all the talk in the V.A. nutwards is about how to get pensions, *not* how to cope w/life....
I know, I'm one of'em....

And always remember: only a small percentage--like ten per cent--of troops were combat infantry (grunts), and and an even *smaller* percentage of that were special ops...and yet that's all you seem to see in the bars or psyche wards....at least that's what I always hear....


actually duckfeet in the past year I have met quite a few marines who have served tours in Iraq, and sadly there is still a stigma about "manning up" and not needing counseling and all. My friends ex boyfriend has become an extremely violent alcoholic, threw me across our porch because I yelled at him for shooting a bb gun off near my then 4 month old infant. We had it out and the details are better left out. But after the fight I sat down with him to have a heart to heart and told him that he needed help and got the tough guy act. I saw it from alot of his friends too. As far as I know they have all refused mental counseling this far even since some of them have completed their terms.

I really hope your right tho duckfeet, cause if these guys are a representation, I'm scared.

[pippin]

from stories about my father and my stepdad.. I have learned one rule thumb that seems pretty true. If they're willing to talk about it.. they didn't see shit. I have heard many men poppin off at the mouth, but my father never told anyone anything about the war and neither has my step dad. I've tried to look into records of my dad's history and they're all still sealed, I guess it's better left unknown.

[Duckfeet]

Everybody's different: it's hard to say, but I guess a lot of times it seems men kind of *wishing* they'd been tougher and braver when they were young, and after a while wishes become memories, and really, once there became a *lot* of fairly easy to get money for having been affected by the war...well, everybody got PTSD....

I know there are some that really do deserve it...I guess I just see a lot of the other kind, especially for some reason in AA: nobody wants to be a common drunk, and it's hard to resist the tempation to pretend u were really a hardcase when u were younger...I know, I'm no different...I've been a librarian too, and I notice I don't talk as much about that as I do the crazier shit...what can I say ;-)

And the generation before me really did fight long and hard in a good cause in WWII...Vietnam and after is where the fuckups started....my people haha


from stories about my father and my stepdad.. I have learned one rule thumb that seems pretty true. If they're willing to talk about it.. they didn't see shit. I have heard many men poppin off at the mouth, but my father never told anyone anything about the war and neither has my step dad. I've tried to look into records of my dad's history and they're all still sealed, I guess it's better left unknown.

[Somanax]

Hell, I actually remember the *real* cold shaker dilaudids, and when they came out w/the "long lasting" tamper proof *new* ones back in the early seventies, and it took any serious junky about five minutes to realize you crush'em up in a dirty five dollar bill w/yer trusty old Buck Knife, then thro'em in the rig...and there you are....yeah, I doubt their motives were pure... ;-)

The new one's being the K4's????

K2's

K3's

the dreaded green K1's


Love to see some right now

even though the brown flow's cheaper

AHHHH memorie's:rolleyes:

[Duckfeet]

Yeah, tho i haven't seen'em in ages...I think the real old ones were K4's too, at least they looked the same, but they really did break right down in water, I mean *right* down, no crushing necessary, and I remember how pissed we all were when the new k4's come out, and u had to go thru all the agravation of crushing them before sloshing'em around in the rig...yup, still my favs....


The new one's being the K4's????

K2's

K3's

the dreaded green K1's


Love to see some right now

even though the brown flow's cheaper

AHHHH memorie's:rolleyes: