Opiates for depression?

[whiterobot122]

Hi I suffer from severe depression and GAD (generalized anxiety disorder) plus I have been having chronic fatigue the past month and depersonalization. I am not an opioid addict but I do tend to use opiates occasionally, mainly subutex (yes I enjoy it) oxycodone being the main ones. I notice that whenever on opiates even on low, theraputic doses. I feel normal, I feel awake, alive, like a normal human should be. I am aware of the risks of opiates and all. But I've been through some of the worst, benzo addiction and withdrawal. I've been on things like prozac to cymbalta to seroquel and Thorazine, keep in mind, xanax being the addiction. Well this was over a year ago and I've been reading on how opioids can be used off label for treatment - resistant patients with severe depression. This fatigue is affecting my everyday life, with joint pain and overall weakness, opiates always help. Life feels like a dream, and on opiates it feels like it should be, right. I'm not here to abuse these drugs or cheat the doc I'm jsut curious if this could be a possibility to treat my depression and how should I bring it up to a doctor?

[HowLongIsTooLong]

YES.

I firmly believe that opiates are the original and most effective antidepressant. But that's just me.

D

[Thebane]

Hi I suffer from severe depression and GAD (generalized anxiety disorder) plus I have been having chronic fatigue the past month and depersonalization. I am not an opioid addict but I do tend to use opiates occasionally, mainly subutex (yes I enjoy it) oxycodone being the main ones. I notice that whenever on opiates even on low, theraputic doses. I feel normal, I feel awake, alive, like a normal human should be. I am aware of the risks of opiates and all. But I've been through some of the worst, benzo addiction and withdrawal. I've been on things like prozac to cymbalta to seroquel and Thorazine, keep in mind, xanax being the addiction. Well this was over a year ago and I've been reading on how opioids can be used off label for treatment - resistant patients with severe depression. This fatigue is affecting my everyday life, with joint pain and overall weakness, opiates always help. Life feels like a dream, and on opiates it feels like it should be, right. I'm not here to abuse these drugs or cheat the doc I'm jsut curious if this could be a possibility to treat my depression and how should I bring it up to a doctor?

I hate to say this and there's a small chance I'm wrong. But I doubt you will find any doc in the US willing to prescribe opiates for depression, if, and this is a big if, it's even allowed by prescription guidelines. I know they can't prescribe it to addicts for means of maintenance, even if they want to, but that may be a special case.

I'd look into sub/methadone programs, the only problem is I think they require that you have been addicted in the past. And I think methadone programs make you piss dirty, so you'd have to at least have access to some opiates before getting on maintenance. A sub doc might be able to take if you claim you used to be an addict and now are having cravings, but I'm not sure.

But be aware that opiate withdrawals may not be as bad as benzo withdrawals, but if you're on anything but a paltry dose of subs or methadone you're not going to be able to function for at least 5 days when you come off. And opiates used to help my anxiety a lot too, now they don't. Because, IME, you have to keep increasing to dose to get the same anti-anxiety effects, and you definitely don't want to keep scaling up a done habit. But good luck, I know how much anxiety and depression suck, they've gone away since I've been on opiates but truthfully I wish I still had them instead of a habit.

PS: Just to clarify I mentioned sub and meth programs because that would be the only legal alternative to a doc prescribing them for anxiety. And even if they do completely get rid of your anxiety think about how much anxiety you'd have withdrawing in jail (if you made the choice to get them illegally).

[Black_Pony]

I couldn't agree more. Although a firm believer that opiates will cure pretty much 'whatever ails ya,' I've specifically found them to be outstanding anxiotlyics (sp) and anti-depressants. Excellent for relieving fatigue symptoms as well.

Unfortunately the medical community would seem to disagree with me unanimously and with a resounding cry of disapproval. I chalk it up to drug war propaganda and the DEA's needless targeting of physicians. Just another result of that bullshit in a long list of casualties.

So I dont think there is a doctor in this entire country who will script opis for any of those conditions. Even the croakers out there will at least invent another condition before they feel comfortable coughing' em up.

Sorry! :(

-----------------------------------------
Edit: I just saw Thebane's post. Apart from finding it funny how he agrees with my 'no doctor" comment by basically saying the exact same thing (great minds?). I think its noteworthy he should report that opiate haven't been an effective long term treatment for his anxiety. His first hand experience holds some weight with me, so ya might wanna think about that before getting yourself hopelessly addicted.

I also feel strongly that patients should be able to explore every treatment option known to man by working with their own doctor and without government interference and public misconception.

[insaneike]

Opis are actually a godsend for depression, along with nearly 80% of the bullshit meds prescribed these days.. Though the dependency and craving that comes with the dependency is enough reason to look into other non-opioid/ate medications!!!! I'm serious, the opis will help wonders at first, but fi you're trying to deal with depression or w.e problem by using illicit opis and scoring off the street at random amounts, random doses, random times, ect. You're just going to fall into the junkie crowd and you're going to end up worse than before, probably.
Now if a doc could maintain you and shit and you could keep OFF THE STREET and using no illicits and no getting high, it could work, but most ppl, whether they want to admit it or not, are going to end up chasing a high, and fuck the depression/reason for using in the first place.

but thats what opiates are and do and what makes junkies man. It dulls all the pain and makes all your problems temporarily go away. It makes you feel like things all gonna be alright, and makes you more peaceful(well not everyone, opis tend to bring on grouchiness sometimes, along with annoyance to lights :p). I'd say STAY AWAY FROM OPIS AS LONG AS POSSIBLE! Try pot, anything!!!
and you wouldn't beleive how many ppl i've met who say they have depression issues, as in they keep telling themselves that and using that to cover up the fact that they're junkies.

just my worthless 2cents

later

[Thebane]

Opis are actually a godsend for depression, along with nearly 80% of the bullshit meds prescribed these days.. Though the dependency and craving that comes with the dependency is enough reason to look into other non-opioid/ate medications!!!! I'm serious, the opis will help wonders at first, but fi you're trying to deal with depression or w.e problem by using illicit opis and scoring off the street at random amounts, random doses, random times, ect. You're just going to fall into the junkie crowd and you're going to end up worse than before, probably.
Now if a doc could maintain you and shit and you could keep OFF THE STREET and using no illicits and no getting high, it could work, but most ppl, whether they want to admit it or not, are going to end up chasing a high, and fuck the depression/reason for using in the first place.

but thats what opiates are and do and what makes junkies man. It dulls all the pain and makes all your problems temporarily go away. It makes you feel like things all gonna be alright, and makes you more peaceful(well not everyone, opis tend to bring on grouchiness sometimes, along with annoyance to lights :p). I'd say STAY AWAY FROM OPIS AS LONG AS POSSIBLE! Try pot, anything!!!
and you wouldn't beleive how many ppl i've met who say they have depression issues, as in they keep telling themselves that and using that to cover up the fact that they're junkies.

just my worthless 2cents

later

Good points, also, though I've never managed to actually get off the shit in the first place so this is just what I've heard, the depression after kicking, especially for someone who was depressed before, is unimaginable. And I believe it, hell the depression I sometimes get while so high I shouldn't be able to feel anything, that comes with knowing I'm really fucked by this shit, is worse than anything I felt pre-opiates.

[ChemicalBliss]

To be dead honest"I feel normal, I feel awake, alive, like a normal human should be" when you said this it sent shivers up my spine!!! Myself and everyone I know gets this feeling from Opiates, It's the nature of the drug, It's what gets you hooked and reeled in my friend. And every single person I know who is Or was Physically or mentally dependendent on opiates suffered from AAnxiety/deppresion. It's in your hands but opiate addiction sucks a hell of a lot worse than the shit your feeling now. some may disagree but hey it's just my opinion.

[norseman]

Before I started using I never had any serious problems with depression, maybe just mild depression and now that I have a habit if I can't maintain it or I try and kick; I end up severely depressed. Thats something to consider when using opiates to treat depression.

Here is something that might interest you, in fact according to the symptoms it sounds allot like your experience, from what I just read. I have just recently heard about a syndrome called EDS "endorphin deficiency syndrome" where it is pretty hard to diagnose concretely, but if you do have it opiate therapy looks to be the best route for treatment. Here is a link to a blog with some good info on diagnosing EDS and also some alternative forms of treatment, none opiate routes. http://www.prohibitionkills.blogspot.com/

I feel for ya, and hope that you find a solution that works.

[Thebane]

OK, I've though about this a lot, because I'm about to kick and feel like my depression/anxiety may come back full force, or much worse than it was before. I agree with Norseman, you and/or me may have EDS, I didn't feel normal until I found opiates either. But, I think it's unlikely opiates will provide any long-term solution, because of tolerance. However, there is a chance you could maybe get relief and keep you intake steady, I really don't know how likely it is, EDS doesn't seem to be that defined yet, it's not even completely accepted that it exists.

The two legal options, without chronic pain or faking chronic pain, are methadone and subs. They are both a bitch to come off of after a long time, but if you stay at a low dose you could probably function during withdrawals and not want to kill yourself afterwards, but I mean a really low dose.

I think your best bet, if NOTHING else will work, is to go on a very low dose of done or subs. I would recommend done just because a first sub visit could be up to $500 while done is something like $10 per day at a clinic. And subs don't come in very lose doses really, at a sub clinic at least.

So stay on something like 15mg of done, I wouldn't go over 30mg, but do the absolute lowest you can and still alleviate some of your depression and anxiety. And stay on it, if it becomes ineffective quickly, such as in a month or two, then quit as fast as you can. It will be painful but nothing compared to a long habit. Because if you need to increase your dose within a month or two for it be effective, it will NEVER work for your whole life, ya know? Five years from now, if the clinic would even let you, you'd be at 250mg of done a day, barely feeling well throughout the day, with horrific side-effects from it. And just be anxious with a gigantic monkey on your back you may well carry the rest of your life.

That's my advice, if I absolutely can't function without opiates that is probably what I'll do. But make your own decision of course, just please research a lot before you do anything. Best of luck.

[whiterobot122]

I agree with all of you, but I've suffered addiction of lots of drugs. I've cleaned up alot and am truly 95% back to being sober, it jsut leaves me my sweating problem, which causes more anxiety and then this depresonalization which causes me to feel so out of place and alienated. I've used subutex for 3 months straight at a 1mg dose and had no withdrawals. I'm not an opiate addict nor do I even use too often anymore. No offense but most of these responses are coming back from junkies. Personally I've never been an opiate addict and don't find them to be a fun 'rec drug' sure they are amazing drugs but for other purposes. Out of all my friends/family I've been the one to never have a problem or want to have one with opiates. Plus I'm not talking a daily regimen. So something with a long half life would be something I"d aim for, benzos have too many down sides and no ups. Opiates on the other hand, make me feel great for days after use. So I was thinking tramadol, like dose one day, redose the day after the next. Like a bi day type thing. who knows. it was just something to question. I can't find a cure for this sweating problem, I've been to docs, got meds, nothing helped. The surgery is too much and I am a poor ass, along with my family. But now we're getting back on our feet and hopefully I can find the right doctor.

[Black_Pony]

I gotta say, you seem to have the right attitude it takes to be someone who never lets their addiction get outta control.

But statistically speaking, you may not be a junky and you may not really like/need opiates, but if you start a regular dosing schedule you'll more than likely BE a junky yourself eventually. Maybe not after 3 months, maybe not after three years, but the likelihood is high enough almost any of the members here can predict that one.

But, no offense taken. I AM a junky so I guess you can say the world I live in and how I perceive it is probably somewhat different from yours. But I CAN say that of all the junkies I've been acquainted with over the years, NONE of them thought they would ever be where they ended up addiction-wise. And almost all thought they were somehow different. I'm not gonna say that YOU aren't different, cuz I don't know that or not. Just a little food for thought.

But it sounds like your quality of life will improve if you find a treatment(s) thats works for you (they sweat must be annoying, but I think you can deal ;)). Do you expect any of these conditions to ever go away? If not you'll be on something long term, and you'll become dependent on whatever it is. Not a big deal as long as your supply is stable. I'd think the advantages are well worth it.

Ya thats about it, I'm losing my train of thought, sorry. Must be all the goddamn junk I shoot! :D

I better amend my little scare tactic that comprises the first few paragraphs by saying maybe my use of the term 'junky' is not the best way to put it. People have different pictures in their head of what a so-called 'junky' is. In this case I mean 'opiod addict with steadily increasing tolerance and seriously real necessity for regular dosage increases.' Regular being monthly, yearly whatever. By no means do I expect to see you passed out in the gutter with a needle full of junk sticking out of your jugular! I dunno, I'm sure thats how some folks visualize the definition of junky. I use it pretty broadly but most often to encompass any opiate addict.

Junkies Unite!

BP

PS. Look on the bright side! If you DO end up starting up the opiate treatment you can count yourself a junky like the rest of us! We're a pretty exclusive little club, but I can tell you got what it takes. And we could sure use another good man like yourself. Think about the offer! ;)

I agree with all of you, but I've suffered addiction of lots of drugs. I've cleaned up alot and am truly 95% back to being sober, it jsut leaves me my sweating problem, which causes more anxiety and then this depresonalization which causes me to feel so out of place and alienated. I've used subutex for 3 months straight at a 1mg dose and had no withdrawals. I'm not an opiate addict nor do I even use too often anymore. No offense but most of these responses are coming back from junkies. Personally I've never been an opiate addict and don't find them to be a fun 'rec drug' sure they are amazing drugs but for other purposes. Out of all my friends/family I've been the one to never have a problem or want to have one with opiates. Plus I'm not talking a daily regimen. So something with a long half life would be something I"d aim for, benzos have too many down sides and no ups. Opiates on the other hand, make me feel great for days after use. So I was thinking tramadol, like dose one day, redose the day after the next. Like a bi day type thing. who knows. it was just something to question. I can't find a cure for this sweating problem, I've been to docs, got meds, nothing helped. The surgery is too much and I am a poor ass, along with my family. But now we're getting back on our feet and hopefully I can find the right doctor.

[Thebane]

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of being called a junky by anyone whose never been addicted to opiates and doesn't clearly mean it as a compliment.

But, sure Whiterobot, only us junkies get physically addicted to opiates. And, truthfully, they're about as easy to stop taking as it is to stop eating chocolate, we just bitch for sympathy and to try to scam money out of people. I'm sure YOU are the one human who will use opiates long term and not get addicted. Must be nice to be the chosen one.

[SHELLEY]

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of being called a junky by anyone whose never been addicted to opiates and doesn't clearly mean it as a compliment.

But, sure Whiterobot, only us junkies get physically addicted to opiates. And, truthfully, they're about as easy to stop taking as it is to stop eating chocolate, we just bitch for sympathy and to try to scam money out of people. I'm sure YOU are the one human who will use opiates long term and not get addicted. Must be nice to be the chosen one.

honey, there's no need to take shit so seriously
are you a junkie?
really are you? cause i don't know
if you aren't, then what was said doesn't apply to ya
if you are, then who cares who calls you one?
they are right. aren't they?

it's like when someone opens their car window
and screams "CRACKWHORE!!" at me
when i'm walking down the street (not tricking)
i could get pissed cause "only my crackwhore buddies can call me that!"
or i could say i'm the best there is
cause, ya know, i am

just a suggestion...
might lower yer fuckin' blood pressure or whatever

[Thebane]

honey, there's no need to take shit so seriously
are you a junkie?
really are you? cause i don't know
if you aren't, then what was said doesn't apply to ya
if you are, then who cares who calls you one?
they are right. aren't they?

it's like when someone opens their car window
and screams "CRACKWHORE!!" at me
when i'm walking down the street (not tricking)
i could get pissed cause "only my crackwhore buddies can call me that!"
or i could say i'm the best there is
cause, ya know, i am

just a suggestion...
might lower yer fuckin' blood pressure or whatever

Yeah, I know what you're saying. The junky part isn't really what made me write the rest. It was him shrugging off everyone offering him good advice by saying he wasn't a junky like us. Seems like everyone is immune to being an addict until they're shitting themselves in withdrawal.

[LorTabitha]

And, truthfully, they're about as easy to stop taking as it is to stop eating chocolate.

Actually, I could give up chocolate MUCH more easily! ;) Even organic dark chocolate!

[Black_Pony]

Actually, I could give up chocolate MUCH more easily! ;) Even organic dark chocolate!

I just load up a FAT rigload of junk with godiva mixed right in there with it. Kill two birds with one stone, right?

The rush is INTENSE! :)

Once I had that idea, it was all downhill. Thats when my addiction really got bad. go figure :rolleyes:

[Thebane]

I just load up a FAT rigload of junk with godiva mixed right in there with it. Kill two birds with one stone, right?

The rush is INTENSE! :)

Once I had that idea, it was all downhill. Thats when my addiction really got bad. go figure :rolleyes:

Damn, that's probably almost as bad for your veins as tar. :rolleyes:

[Black_Pony]

Damn, that's probably almost as bad for your veins as tar. :rolleyes:

Actually its a little known fact that milk chocolate (doesn't apply to dark and white chocolate) is actually an ancient remedy for repairing the damage caused by intravenous black tar heroin injection. Every time you slam half a hershey bar, for instance, its like a dose of 'vein draino' that cleans your shit and promotes healthy cell division to replace damaged tissue.

So when you cook up a cocktail with both right in there, they pretty much cancel each other out I figure. Not to mention the rush is like 100 orgasms all rolled into one!

[Wow, we're approaching a whole new level of sarcasm now. This is uncharted territory. Hold on to yer seats folks!]

[whiterobot122]

Junky was in no way to be offensive. I mean thats why alot of people are on this site..they are junkies and can all talk and give advice. I use to be a junky, just not on opiates. I'm in no way degrading you guys, you're normal people with a problem too.

[Thebane]

Junky was in no way to be offensive. I mean thats why alot of people are on this site..they are junkies and can all talk and give advice. I use to be a junky, just not on opiates. I'm in no way degrading you guys, you're normal people with a problem too.

Ok, I over-reacted, sorry if I was insulting. I'm extremely pissed today about other things and that just set me off.

But, man, everyone comes here asking if they should start "chipping" because of their unique problem. Twenty people respond "fuck no." They start anyway, three months later they're back asking for advice on how to kick. A year later they're still chilling here. It's the nature of the game, but I know you're going to start, just letting you know how it will end.

[LorTabitha]

Junky was in no way to be offensive... I'm in no way degrading you guys, you're normal people with a problem too.

No offense to you either, but not all the people on this board consider their usage to be a problem. ;)

Also, many are CP patients who are taking their legally prescribed meds. :D

[Seedy]

6 years ago someone showed me how to make poppy seed tea. I had way too much and swore I'd never try it again. A few months later curiousity (and a lack of drug hookups) made me try it again. I just had a tiny dose and it felt pretty good, seemed to cure my depression. I'd do it in the weekends and realised I seemed to function better on it. so I did it more and more until it was a daily habit. I still wasn't worried, it only cost about $10 a week and you could buy poppy seeds everywhere.

Gradually my doses got bigger and I started to dose twice a day. Still only a $20 a week habit, way less than I spent on weed or alcohol. Then sudddenly (after 3 years of daily use, my habit was at about $30pw) the seeds stopped working and I realised that my usual places were selling these lighter seeds which must have had all the goodies washed off them. I realised I had a pretty big problem on my hands. After about a week of suffering I found a place selling good seeds again. A bit more pricey than I was used to but hey, I was well again. Since then good seeds have got harder to find and gone up in price so now after about 5.5 years my habit costs about $100 a week, $200 sometimes (dosing 3-4 times a day now) and I can't function without them.

They no longer cure my depression, last year I actually got on anti depressants for the first time ever. I'm constantly broke, constantly craving stronger opiates (after a little taste of oxy), and constantly worrying that my source will dry up. Now I'm thinking seriously about methadone. I admit I was a druggy to begin with but I swear this could happen to anyone.

[Suboxstitute]

I agree - opiates help depression and doctors know it damn well ( at least the good shrinks do, mine does. But it's rare to never that you get a script for that reason.

BUT! There have been some bona-fide studies and medical articles written about this in the major medical journals. There was a trial with low-dose bupe, in fact, to treatment resistent depression (TRD). It worked for some, not others.

But I'd spend some time researching , google "opiates and depression" and wade thru all the message boards and ads, and try to find the good article. Throw TRD in the search.

There ARE some studies and work going on at large universities/hopspital systems about using opiates off-label for treatment-resistent depression (TRD). .

if I find any of this stuff I've read in the past, I'll post links up for you. It is NOT hopeless; it MIGHT happen that in limited situations, opiates have been prescibed in supervised setting for "intractable depression" which has not responded to ANYTHING else.

Sue/Subox

[Black_Pony]

For the OP:

Sorry if we're starting to sound like a broken record, taking turns repeating the same thing. But I will repeat my thoughts yet again cuz I was thinking about ya and I figured out a good way to sum up the major issue at hand. (seedy's post pointed this out but I'm gonna have a go at summing it up succinctly)

You need a treatment you can stick with long term. Opiates are one very effective solution to your problems except your never gonna find a doctor willing to dole 'em out. So you gotta go with the sub clinic or 'done clinic routes unless you just take matters into your own hands (ie. poppy products or illegal covert pill/heroin purchasing). Sub outfits and 'done clinics will both treat you like a piece of shit subhuman street junky. The sub runaround requires outrageous out of pocket expenses. Choosing the 'done clinic will ensure that your ass is on site during business hours every day and prevent you from leaving town over night ever again on business or vacation or anything. If you buy shit on the street or use any part of the opium poppy your supply will never be guaranteed, its even pretty safe to say that you wont be able to use the same supplier any longer than a few months. Thats about as simple as I can possibly break down your options.

If I were you, I would conclude that any of the more conventional pharmaceutical therapies you can discuss with your doctor or shrink are FAR more advantageous than any of your opiate options. The bullshit you and your doctor will be up against with regards to trial and error, ineffectiveness, drug side effects will be FAR easier to put up with than the bullshit you face with ANY of your opiate options. And after a matter of time you and your doctor will be able to narrow down a drug combination and dosage thats most effective for you with the most minimal side effects. Good things come to those who wait, and once you get to that point you'll never have to worry about supply availability ever again. If your doctor leaves town or meets his maker getting plowed down by a bus while crossing the street, you just find a new one and continue your treatment seamlessly.

By no means am I trying to tell you what you should do, its your choice. Thats just the thought process I would use if I were in your shoes and the conclusion I would arrive at. Notice how all the real concerns that are influencing your decision most strongly have absolutely nothing to do with your self control, your likelihood of abusing your drugs, or anything to do with being a junky or not?

Sorry we kept confusing the issue by telling you how easy it is for an opiate addiction to get out of control. But we ARE junkies and that type of shit is always lurking on our mind not far from the surface. And addiction, tolerance, and abuse really do go hand in hand with opiates. Whether or not its an issue for you, doctors and shrinks already all know that full well. They all think along the same lines as us in that they think those problems are almost certain to arise no matter who you are. As a result, none of them want to take that risk unless every single other treatment option in the book is attempted and ruled out. In the case of your conditions, most doctors wont go that route even AFTER exhausting all other options under any circumstance. On the off chance you find one that does, Doctors dont live in the same place forever nor do they keep the same job forever and they obviously dont live forever. And the chances of you finding TWO doctors willing to go there are absolutely nill. If you go with a by-the-book treatment you can see any doctor your heart desires.

I hope my thoughts on the subject were helpful. I truly wish you the best of luck and sincerely hope that you find the medical treatment you need and get to live the life you want! Please don't mistake my presentation as being rude, I simply wanted it to be blunt and to the point.

See ya around,
BP

PS. Make sure and stick around, I was being facetious about the whole needing to be a junky to be in the club bullshit.

[eveline]

So something with a long half life would be something I"d aim for, benzos have too many down sides and no ups. Opiates on the other hand, make me feel great for days after use. So I was thinking tramadol, like dose one day, redose the day after the next. Like a bi day type thing. who knows. it was just something to question.

Hey... I just wanted to say I tried 50 mg tramadol daily for several months as an antidepressant (it's supposed to be a SNRI as well as an opioid, and like you said it's pretty long-acting), and I don't think it really helped my depression appreciably (neither did the various antidepressants I have been prescribed before)... but I had no problem stopping the tramadol when I decided it wasn't doing any good. I did actually feel only 50 mg, even after months of taking it daily (I don't have much of an opiate tolerance, and I had even less then), but I don't think it made my daily life any easier (I also have major depression and generalized anxiety disorder). I guess my point was to tell you I don't think you need to make it every other day unless that's all you need (or if you plan to take more than 50 mg). And I think you should give it a try if you have it.

I am really curious about low-dose bupe (which is what all the opiates-for-depression trials were of, AFAIK), but as I understand it a regular psych can't prescribe it (even if you showed him the studies and convinced him), only a doctor with a special cert. or something (does anyone know if this is true when they're not prescribing it to treat addiction?). Also I don't have insurance at the moment... but I digress.

[Uncle Wiggly]

Back when Morphine was first being mass marketed it was heralded as a cure for depression. Of course that's before the docs fully understood the whole addiction process. I agree with those who are saying you're not going to find a doc who will script you opiates for depression. Hell, it's hard enough these days to get one to prescribe them to you for real pain.

If you're having a lot of problems with clinical depression it may be a good idea to talk to you doc about it. He/She may prescribe some type of antidepressant. Most of the medical field now views depression as a chemical imbalance. This may or may not help. You may have to try a few different types of antidepressants before you find one that works for you. Good luck and stay well.

[Black_Pony]

Hey... I just wanted to say I tried 50 mg tramadol daily for several months as an antidepressant (it's supposed to be a SNRI as well as an opioid, and like you said it's pretty long-acting), and I don't think it really helped my depression appreciably (neither did the various antidepressants I have been prescribed before)... but I had no problem stopping the tramadol when I decided it wasn't doing any good. I did actually feel only 50 mg, even after months of taking it daily (I don't have much of an opiate tolerance, and I had even less then), but I don't think it made my daily life any easier (I also have major depression and generalized anxiety disorder). I guess my point was to tell you I don't think you need to make it every other day unless that's all you need (or if you plan to take more than 50 mg). And I think you should give it a try if you have it.

I am really curious about low-dose bupe (which is what all the opiates-for-depression trials were of, AFAIK), but as I understand it a regular psych can't prescribe it (even if you showed him the studies and convinced him), only a doctor with a special cert. or something (does anyone know if this is true when they're not prescribing it to treat addiction?). Also I don't have insurance at the moment... but I digress.

I found that 150 mg of tramadol was helpful for me in that regard (depression that is, not so much anxiety). But I'm not one of the people who thinks its long lasting. I always dosed under the impression you were supposed to re-up every 4 - 6 hours. I could easily be wrong. That would explain the effectiveness if I kept dosing before the previous dose had been metabolized.

In response to your other question, I've been told by a medical professional that any physician can prescribe bupe anytime they want for the treatment of pain. So its fair game when used as an analgesic. The DEA rigamorole comes into play with the opiod addiction treatment aspect.

I'm not sure what the deal is for shrinks that wanna write for it or even what restrictions there are as far as using it to treat emotional problems and the like. :confused:

I don't think that the medical community accepts any opiods as a legitimate treatment for emotional-type issues. I would sure feel like an ass if I'm somehow wrong about that one, seeing as how I just used that fact (above) as major reason behind my suggested course of action for him...

[whiterobot122]

I'm not here to put anyone down or put myself above you. I'm not going to reach into opiate addiction, I just wanted to see what most of you had to say to the thread. Well thanks for all the answers but as I live with an opiate addict I know the signs and symptoms. Oh well I'm not even going to head down the path of getting addicted, I don't care if I sound conceited but I've beat it before and refuse to let it come in my life again. That doesn't mean I'm not open to it, but I do pretty damn well on keeping clean. Plus I do have chronic pain (diagnosed) my back is fucked up, bad.

[SpecialGuy69]

I'm not here to put anyone down or put myself above you. I'm not going to reach into opiate addiction, I just wanted to see what most of you had to say to the thread. Well thanks for all the answers but as I live with an opiate addict I know the signs and symptoms. Oh well I'm not even going to head down the path of getting addicted, I don't care if I sound conceited but I've beat it before and refuse to let it come in my life again. That doesn't mean I'm not open to it, but I do pretty damn well on keeping clean. Plus I do have chronic pain (diagnosed) my back is fucked up, bad.
After reading all your posts in this thread, I really get the feeling you are lying to yourself about addiction. The problem is you never know for sure until its too late. Be careful.

[Black_Pony]

I live with an opiate addict

You do? Cool! May I ask what relationship you have with that individual? As in significant other, family member of some kind, friend, or just random roommate?

The reason I ask is cuz every roommate I've ever had could no longer tolerate living with me once they found that out about me. That even includes a life long friend who used to be an opiate addict himself. They just can't possibly live with the fact that I share the same roof with them all the while quietly using by myself in my room with the door closed. And I could never really figure out why that is.

So I commend you! For not ostracizing your roommate, and I'm impressed that you have enough character that you somehow don't share the same illogical feelings that all my past roommates had. So I'm just curious about the situation thats all, cuz I wish everyone was more like you.


Oh well I'm not even going to head down the path of getting addicted, I don't care if I sound conceited but I've beat it before and refuse to let it come in my life again.

I'm very glad to hear that! I got your back, man. If I ever want to quit forever, I hope I can maintain the same outlook.

Peace,

BP

[Frozen]

Sue/Subox[/quote]
I agree - opiates help depression and doctors know it damn well ( at least the good shrinks do, mine does. But it's rare to never that you get a script for that reason.

BUT! There have been some bona-fide studies and medical articles written about this in the major medical journals. There was a trial with low-dose bupe, in fact, to treatment resistent depression (TRD). It worked for some, not others.

But I'd spend some time researching , google "opiates and depression" and wade thru all the message boards and ads, and try to find the good article. Throw TRD in the search.

There ARE some studies and work going on at large universities/hopspital systems about using opiates off-label for treatment-resistent depression (TRD). .

if I find any of this stuff I've read in the past, I'll post links up for you. It is NOT hopeless; it MIGHT happen that in limited situations, opiates have been prescibed in supervised setting for "intractable depression" which has not responded to ANYTHING else.

Sue/Subox

Hi Sue... I think you just found it! That's exactly what my website (http://forum.opiophile.org/www.ProhibitionKills.com) is for: Explaining the depression-endorphin-opiate connection to the layperson, and collecting all the relevant links in one place.

The trial you're referring to is known as the "Bodkin Experiment". My site has the link to their findings, along with the results of the experiment's very recent 'sequel'.

Norseman: The thread opening post here just screams; "EDS!",so I was totally relieved to see someone mention my site. I would've been pretty pissed if my work had been completely overlooked and forgotten here. Just one thing that needs to be added for the sake of whiterobot: LDN! (also detailed on my site)
You may think your willpower alone can stave off addiction... but I doubt the willpower of twenty monks could ever safeguard you against the depression, chronic fatigue (fibromyalgia?), and weak immune system wrought by EDS.

[Saint]

Hi Sue... I think you just found it! That's exactly what my website (http://forum.opiophile.org/www.ProhibitionKills.com) is for: Explaining the depression-endorphin-opiate connection to the layperson, and collecting all the relevant links in one place
Just one thing that needs to be added for the sake of whiterobot: LDN! (also detailed on my site)
You may think your willpower alone can stave off addiction... but I doubt the willpower of twenty monks could ever safeguard you against the depression, chronic fatigue (fibromyalgia?), and weak immune system wrought by EDS.

About LDN: they had me on naltrexone about 7 years ago and it didn't work for me, in fact it made me feel worse! But I was prescribed 50 mgs a day and as I understand it that's way too high a dose and will only make you miserable. So what is the average low dose naltrexone? 5 mgs??
Or am I an exception to the rule and should the 50 mgs have done the trick?

[jesusmd]

Opiates have been used to treat depression for centuries (although seldom from doctors). In my opinion something along the suboxone/bupe line is going to be used in practice at some point. More likely outside of the US first.
Doctors have to realize that a long term stay on bupe for those struggling to get relief from antidepressants is a better alternative than a life wasting a way. Even a few years of stability and happiness can turn someone's life around for good. As you all know, its just dealing with the dependancy factor, but hell, SSRIs are becoming widely reported as murder to quit. Its got to come along and fall into legit treatment programs sometime I think.

[cg5]

"oxycodone" the best anti anything and everthing... PRO DRUGS FOR DAILY LIFE...... my visiion is a future with vending machines full of any drug you want.... who else on here vaguely believes in anarchism?

[eveline]

About LDN: they had me on naltrexone about 7 years ago and it didn't work for me, in fact it made me feel worse! But I was prescribed 50 mgs a day and as I understand it that's way too high a dose and will only make you miserable. So what is the average low dose naltrexone? 5 mgs??
Or am I an exception to the rule and should the 50 mgs have done the trick?

Yep. "...the optimal adult dosage of LDN has been found to be 4.5mg." (from lowdosenaltrexone.org/index.htm#What_is_low_dose_naltrexone) All I've heard about the 50 mg naltrexone are bad things, but supposedly at a low dose it acts very differently...

Opiates have been used to treat depression for centuries (although seldom from doctors). In my opinion something along the suboxone/bupe line is going to be used in practice at some point. More likely outside of the US first.
Doctors have to realize that a long term stay on bupe for those struggling to get relief from antidepressants is a better alternative than a life wasting a way. Even a few years of stability and happiness can turn someone's life around for good. As you all know, its just dealing with the dependancy factor, but hell, SSRIs are becoming widely reported as murder to quit. Its got to come along and fall into legit treatment programs sometime I think.

SSRIs are hell to get off of, but they're no fun, so it's OK to prescribe them. :rolleyes: (Doctors need to stop talking about "I'm afraid you'll become dependent" and say what they mean: "I'm afraid you will enjoy yourself"...)

"oxycodone" the best anti anything and everthing... PRO DRUGS FOR DAILY LIFE...... my visiion is a future with vending machines full of any drug you want.... who else on here vaguely believes in anarchism?

There is a significant contingent of libertarians here (though I am wondering how much of that was tp's censorship skewing things...)

[cg5]

opaite users are indeed libertarians becuase most of them are very individual... it took you till now to figure that out lol

[Saint]

Yep. "...the optimal adult dosage of LDN has been found to be 4.5mg." (from lowdosenaltrexone.org/index.htm#What_is_low_dose_naltrexone) All I've heard about the 50 mg naltrexone are bad things, but supposedly at a low dose it acts very differently...


O.k. so 4.5 it is. Thanks, Eveline. Might try LDN again some day but never ever in the 50 mg range again.

[More Feen]

I think you have your answer regarding a doctor treating a patient for depression using opiates. You'd probably have better luck getting opiates to treat your depression by making up a painful malady that is hard to prove, or disprove.

Tramadol, might be helpful and a pretty-much legal way to try and treat your depression. As mentioned, it can give a slight opiate buzz and has some effects on serotonin activity.

If you were to venture into the murky grey-area of legality, pod tea and similar recipes can provide help. While addiction & legal problems will still be a possibilty, it will be much less so then trying to score H, OC to treat yourself.

As a side note, some people like me find pod tea a far more potent mood elevator than codeine, or morphine alone. There are many active chemicals in papaver somniferum besides M & C that have a nice synergistic effect.

The least amount of time you spend feeling crappy, the better-off you are--good luck finding something that works for you.

MF

[HowLongIsTooLong]

Hrm...

'...No offense but most of these responses are coming back from junkies....'

I just don't like this.

D

[HowLongIsTooLong]

Actually its a little known fact that milk chocolate (doesn't apply to dark and white chocolate) is actually an ancient remedy for repairing the damage caused by intravenous black tar heroin injection. Every time you slam half a hershey bar, for instance, its like a dose of 'vein draino' that cleans your shit and promotes healthy cell division to replace damaged tissue.

So when you cook up a cocktail with both right in there, they pretty much cancel each other out I figure. Not to mention the rush is like 100 orgasms all rolled into one!

[Wow, we're approaching a whole new level of sarcasm now. This is uncharted territory. Hold on to yer seats folks!]

I also hear that if you add some caramel to the shot, it cures ED and grows your hair back. I mean, that's what I heard.

D

[HowLongIsTooLong]

Junky was in no way to be offensive. I mean thats why alot of people are on this site..they are junkies and can all talk and give advice. I use to be a junky, just not on opiates. I'm in no way degrading you guys, you're normal people with a problem too.

This positively stinks of elitism. Thanks for letting us know where we stand... I had no idea what to think of myself before. Christ.

And thebane, I don't think you should apologize. If it tickled you the wrong way, you should say what the fuck you want. Else your prostate will go bad, and you'll end up having to shoot Tic-Tacs to fix it.

D

[Thanat0s]

no dude, im just normal people. the fact that i use heroin daily IV isnt really a problem to me at all!
i think you sir are the one with a 'problem...'



btw... why why WHY does everyone on earth insist that addiction to heroin or any drug is a prolem?!
ya know fuck you, im FINE with it.

[Thanat0s]

I also hear that if you add some caramel to the shot, it cures ED and grows your hair back. I mean, that's what I heard.
D
ive peanuts and nougat?

hhmmmm!!!

crispity, crunchity IVmorphinny goodness!

[Armegeddon73]

Shelley I love you! Great response. If you can't laugh (or cry) at yourself, then your in huge trouble no matter what.
ARM (wow i type slow.)

[Armegeddon73]

I am torn between the two points of view as I am living through this right now and do not have the perspective to make a sound judgment. Diagnosed pain patient (back fracture, nerve damage) diagnosed OCD, Bi-Polar, totally functional, but every day is a god damn battle. I am currently prescribed 3 anti-deprassants, 2 benzos, 20mg oxy er, and 10mg percocet. I use the whole cocktail in conjuction to help battle my depression. There are times when my anti-depressants work well, and I feel pretty good and I take less than my prescribed amount of oxy, sometimes just 10mg to help my, pain, energy level (and not get sick). I rarely run out of my pain meds, never run out of benzos, but I am most terrified about running out of my anti depressants. The bottom line is, the addiction involved with anti depressants, and the symptoms of withdrawal are as scary and severe as any benzo or opiate. So what the fuck is the difference. When I take my opiates, I don't feel "high", I do not feel like everything is "great" and problems simply do not exist. I feel "right". I'm more patient and confident, I am more insightful, I am more productive, I find the solutions to problems more easily; I exude better energy, and simply feel more "human". Right now, I am betting the farm on low dosage opiate therapy, in conjuction with cognitive talk therapy, anti deprressant medication and anxiety meds (benzos).
ARM
PS Check out the benzo poll/thread. It overlaps this discussion in some ways.

[Inspektahdek]

I only feel normal opiated, then the world is beautiful. Without, it's depressing

[HandMeSomeOpiates]

YES.

I firmly believe that opiates are the original and most effective antidepressant. But that's just me.

D

I totally agree