PDA

View Full Version : Methadone hcl to freebase back to hcl



SynthMorph
03-06-2008, 12:39 PM
Would it be possible to freebase methadone hcl found in oral formulas with sodium bicarbonate or sodium hydroxide? Im new to this chemistry stuff and looking for a way to isolate methadone in juice. With the freebase one could turn it into methadone hcl with hydrochloric acid.

SpecialGuy69
03-06-2008, 03:35 PM
I believe you are referring to an acid/base extraction.

If that is your question - can you obtain pure methadone hcl by performing an acid/base extraction on oral solution, the answer is probably. Almost surely if you have the sugar free clear juice.

But why bother? I'm assuming you want to shoot pure methadone. Everyone says its not great, and it almost surely wouldnt be worth the trouble of isloating it from juice. In england they have a pure injectable methadone product called physeptone, and Nick has said that he got almost no rush from shooting it.

Unless you are already shooting your take-homes everyday as is, don't bother.

SynthMorph
03-07-2008, 01:20 AM
Im looking to extract methadone from the juice to further refine in to levomethadone. I'm not shooting my juice and don't want to. I'm not sure what an acid to base extraction is. I'm interested in turning the methadone hcl into the base form in the juice. Anyone know how to do that? That way I can later turn it into the l-methadone hcl with hydrochloric acid later. I'm curious if this is as simple as mixing the juice with sodium hydroxide and heating and extracting with chloroform?

Synack
03-10-2008, 10:52 PM
Why bother trying.. if I remember, it has an opioid receptor affinity in the range of morphine - also has about the same analgesic effects, and causes more respiratory depression and less sedation than morphine..

And regarding synthesis of it - this is all the info I could find: (Bockmuhl and Ehrhart (Farbw. Hoechst) 1941; 1948; Schultz et al., 1947; Howe and Sietainger, 1949; Solmssen and Wenis, 1948; Larsen et al 1948, Howe et al. (Merck & Co), 1953; Zaugg (Abott), 1961);

SynthMorph
03-11-2008, 05:36 AM
The reason is l-methadone is 2-2.4x stronger than regular d,l-methadone and has none of the side effects of racemic methadone. Another reason is I have plenty of racemic methadone but its in oral form and just looking to get "royal methadone" out of it. I have stumbled upon the process needed.

robojunkie
03-11-2008, 08:29 AM
If "you've stumbled onto the process needed" then why are you asking? BTW, if you aren't sure what an acid/base extraction is, you probably shouldn't undertake anything beyond the simple extraction, ie this enantiomer resolution and conversion you speak of. You also defined acid/base extraction in the same post you asked about it by the way. It's what you want to do with the juice. Basify, and it "switches" solubilities from polar to non-polar.

Also if I recall correctly, the Mallinkrodt (or however the hell ya spell it) "oral concentrate" (yummy cherry) has "poloxamers" in it. These are "di-block copolymers" which means they have anywhere from 50 or 100 to 1000 repeating polar monomers, then switch to non-polars and back again and again. This has the effect of rendering simple acid base extractions into super-emulsions and the only way I've found around this shit is either huge amounts of solvent, or first pulling the salt (generally speaking here, not methadone specifically) with something other than water, evap'ing and then proceeding. Usually the type of poloxamer used in pills and syrups is designed to emulsify water and non-polars like hexanes, toluene, benzene, ether, possibly methylene chloride and so forth. Things like whatever HCl though, can usually be solvated in ethanol or even IPA, though methanol would probably get hung up in the poloxamer death cloud.

red26
03-11-2008, 09:24 AM
I believe you are referring to an acid/base extraction.

If that is your question - can you obtain pure methadone hcl by performing an acid/base extraction on oral solution, the answer is probably. Almost surely if you have the sugar free clear juice.

But why bother? I'm assuming you want to shoot pure methadone. Everyone says its not great, and it almost surely wouldnt be worth the trouble of isloating it from juice. In england they have a pure injectable methadone product called physeptone, and Nick has said that he got almost no rush from shooting it.

Unless you are already shooting your take-homes everyday as is, don't bother.

I've shot it before and it WAS pointless. On occasion when paying the clinic cant be done and theres some of a take home left then is the only time I can justify shooting it.

OxyContinuously
03-11-2008, 09:44 AM
i dont see why you would want to, but it is possible to make meth free base out of methadone hydrochloride:

roughly:

methadone HCl--> add it to water, and you need something to re-crystallize (precipitate) it from solution...potassium carbonate, or a comparable carbonate... potassium carbonate is good b/c it's pH is high, iow it is "very basic" and strong enough to separate the methadone from the "hydrochloride" and liberate it as a free substance...take the filtrate, and re-disslove it...i've never done this particular one, but i think ethanol should be fine (lab grade absolute alcohol, u know, not grandpa's maker's mark or some shit)...after it's dissolved in the ethanol, add some distilled water to precipitate it from the solution and re-filer...(if u have access to vacuum filtration, great...if not, not so great ;-)

and you should get a very nice return of methadone free-base.

SpecialGuy69
03-11-2008, 09:46 AM
The reason is l-methadone is 2-2.4x stronger than regular d,l-methadone and has none of the side effects of racemic methadone. Another reason is I have plenty of racemic methadone but its in oral form and just looking to get "royal methadone" out of it. I have stumbled upon the process needed.
^ are you referring to Tartaric acid resolution? That is how most methamphetamine manufacturers resolve d,l- meth into the d-methamphetamine that is so sought after (Ice). Tartaric acid is very useful in resolving racemic substances into optically pure samples, but it is a procedure that requires a good measure of chemistry skill.

You can't change d,l methadone into levomethadone. d,l means its a mixture- approximately 50% dextro, and 50% levo. If you have 1000mg of d,l- methdone, the best you could hope for is to separate it into 500mg dextro and 500mg levo. It is impossible (well not impossible, but it might as well be) to change dextro- into levo- methadone.

Levomethadone is still available in europe, and in Germany, it is what they dispense at methadone clinics. Its my understanding that there wouldn't be any difference in the effects, and the only advantage would be lower incidence of side effects and ability to maintain on a lower dose. Because of that, I dont think it would be worth your trouble. You would be better off trying to turn levomethadone into dipipanone. Check this thread: click here for more info (http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=15466&highlight=methadone).

OxyContinuously
03-11-2008, 09:47 AM
forgot to add, robojunkie brings up a good point:

the juice or liquid has a lot of binders, flavors, and other shit in it that could hinder or mess with your reactions...the one i suggested was assuming you had pure (or relatively pure ) methadone hydrochloride to begin with....just so u know.

OxyContinuously
03-11-2008, 09:50 AM
^ are you referring to Tartaric acid resolution? That is how most methamphetamine manufacturers resolve d,l- meth into the d-methamphetamine that is so sought after (Ice). Tartaric acid is very useful in resolving racemic substances into optically pure samples, but it is a procedure that requires a good measure of chemistry skill.

You can't change d,l methadone into levomethadone. d,l means its a mixture- approximately 50% dextro, and 50% levo. If you have 1000mg of d,l- methdone, the best you could hope for is to separate it into 500mg dextro and 500mg levo. It is impossible (well not impossible, but it might as well be) to change dextro- into levo- methadone.

Levomethadone is still available in europe, and in Germany, it is what they dispense at methadone clinics. Its my understanding that there wouldn't be any difference in the effects, and the only advantage would be lower incidence of side effects and ability to maintain on a lower dose. Because of that, I dont think it would be worth your trouble. You would be better off trying to turn levomethadone into dipipanone. Check this thread: click here for more info (http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=15466&highlight=methadone).

yup, analogous to how you can't change dextromethorphan in to "levomethorphan," the opiate...

and how the "l-methamphetamine" in Vick's inhalers is useless and good for what it is, a de-congestant...and you can't *make* it into "d-methamphetamine"

same idea in both scenarios; i liked your explanation too, Agent O:D