How Do You Think It Ends?

[motts]

I have been thinking about this lately I dunno why....

How do you think most opiate users die? OD? Natural Causes?

Do any opiate users make it into there 80s? 90s? Can you have a junkie lifestyle and live till 90 and die of natural causes?

Just thinking.....

[Nate]

Of course, if you looked after your body there is no reason why a junky couldn't live into his 80-90s. Unfortunetly our bodies sometimes get neglected when it comes to getting a fix...which is why some of us don't make it to our elder years.

[Thanat0s]

WSB made it awhile...

[Raisin]

I'm going to break my neck tripping over the cat that runs under my feet every morning when I'm half awake stumbling to the bathroom.

[robojunkie]

If heroin were fully legal for adults, I doubt our median mortality would vary more than a year or two from the average, and that includes a year or two more as well as less, due to the beneficial effects of stress and pain relief.

However, in the current prohibitionist tyranny of the majority via their minority state, where AIDS and its destruction was left to spread with a wink and a nod from these pieces of merciless human feces for twenty years before needle exchanges and legal needles became commonplace (and the shit-eating dogs in Congress, as in the US Congress not the states, still won't allow any funding for this as it "sends the wrong message". Wrong message? So the right message is its better to let 100's of thousands die than falter on a narrow minded policy of "zero tolerance"? That if you close your eyes and say it ain't so, it ain't? Fuck them, they should all hang for murder via negligence), where often the junky must choose between a few packs of ramen noodles or getting right for the moment, where often many of us wind up homeless or semi-homeless without proper health care, diet or living standards, and all of this the direct result of prohibition. This is to say nothing of the constant stress of impending withdrawal and the constant police harassment one must endure. Ya know, there was once a time when the average American would have seen the insanity and the hypocrisy of this, it's just too bad that this was also the same time the average American couldn't see the insanity and hypocrisy of slavery!

Oh, almost forgot during that rant, to answer the question. Yes, in the above situation, sadly our mortality must be significantly higher than average, probably well over 10 or 15 years earlier death at least on average. Yup, good old nanny state big brother, protecting us from ourselves with that good old bureaucratic efficiency!

[Raz]

I know how i would like it to end....Either old and stoned or old and havin sex...That final orgasm takin me to a better place...:p:D

[erica]

I know how i would like it to end....Either old and stoned or old and havin sex...That final orgasm takin me to a better place...:p:D

But highly traumatic for your partner....If they keep going, does that make them a necrophiliac? Haha

[Raz]

But highly traumatic for your partner....If they keep going, does that make them a necrophiliac? Haha

Well ya just gotta finish.......

[SurfRat]

I don't know but read my quote... That's about as far as I ever get with it.

[deathboy]

If heroin were fully legal for adults, I doubt our median mortality would vary more than a year or two from the average, and that includes a year or two more as well as less, due to the beneficial effects of stress and pain relief.

However, in the current prohibitionist tyranny of the majority via their minority state, where AIDS and its destruction was left to spread with a wink and a nod from these pieces of merciless human feces for twenty years before needle exchanges and legal needles became commonplace (and the shit-eating dogs in Congress, as in the US Congress not the states, still won't allow any funding for this as it "sends the wrong message". Wrong message? So the right message is its better to let 100's of thousands die than falter on a narrow minded policy of "zero tolerance"? That if you close your eyes and say it ain't so, it ain't? Fuck them, they should all hang for murder via negligence), where often the junky must choose between a few packs of ramen noodles or getting right for the moment, where often many of us wind up homeless or semi-homeless without proper health care, diet or living standards, and all of this the direct result of prohibition. This is to say nothing of the constant stress of impending withdrawal and the constant police harassment one must endure. Ya know, there was once a time when the average American would have seen the insanity and the hypocrisy of this, it's just too bad that this was also the same time the average American couldn't see the insanity and hypocrisy of slavery!

Oh, almost forgot during that rant, to answer the question. Yes, in the above situation, sadly our mortality must be significantly higher than average, probably well over 10 or 15 years earlier death at least on average. Yup, good old nanny state big brother, protecting us from ourselves with that good old bureaucratic efficiency!

Well said Robojunkie - my sentiments exactly!

I hold the gummint directly responsible for the above-referenced atrocities.

Having said that I think the real enemy is apathy and complacency among the majority of the American public - or as I like to call them - Boobus Americanus. There may come a day when people wake up to realize that they've been hoodwinked - but it probably won't happen in our lifetime. As you say in the good old days informed citizens would never allow such things to occur. But that was then and this is now. These days informed citizens are marginalized and pigeon holed as conspiracy theorists. This explains the behemoth nanny state and BIG BROTHER. Welcome to the wonders of Democracy - where mob rules and the minority is just plain f****d. Frankly, I'm all about restoring our original form of government - the Constitutional Republic. Heaven Forbid that should happen as there'd be bloated blackened corpses lining the streets of Washington DC. We know there are people actively preventing that from happening. Traitors...

DB

[Xavier]

darkness, but in all seriousness there arent to many older dope fiends around. even on the methadon programs i dont see many people above their 60's. its kinda sad but its the life we chose.

[OxyContinuously]

I have been thinking about this lately I dunno why....

How do you think most opiate users die? OD? Natural Causes?

Do any opiate users make it into there 80s? 90s? Can you have a junkie lifestyle and live till 90 and die of natural causes?

Just thinking.....

good one, Motts ( a nice thought-provoking question is what I mean to say ;-)

sure opiate users can live as long as non-users.

all depends on how well they take care of themselves. Nutrition plays a big part, as does exercise (or the lack there-of)

Statistically, only about 12% of long-term opiate addicts, end their lives by committing suicide, so that's good news...that leaves 88% of us who don't

and also, you have to note that out of that 10 to 12 percent of addicts that actually *do* end up killing themselves, more than 80% of them had an underlying mental disorder; i'm talking serious mental problems, including but not limited to: various psychoses like Bipolar I and II, schizophrenoform, schizoid, and schizophrenia itself. Then we have the personality disorders: Antisocial, borderline, histrionic, etc. The "smaller" disorders like ADD, ADHD, and the various "pain disorders" like fibromyalgia, and related--> these don't "count" as far as being quantified for our purposes.

Very interesting fact: many opiate addicts have antisocial personality disorder to begin with, and they medicate themselves through opiate use. I thought that was interesting--only this particular personality disorder goes hand in hand w/ opiate abuse/addiction etc. The resr are seemingly unrelated to opiate use. I'm not saying that people that use opiates are sntisocial or that the opiates caused the onset of the disorder---no, I mean that peole with APD to begin with, often start down the road of opiate addiction from an early age...IOW, these folks are more apt to start using in the first place, b/c of that personality flaw.

Motts, there are a lot of men and women today that are active junkies, and are (relatively) fine..

Let's see, now....I can think of a couple right off the bat. Keith Richards is a great example...He may not be all that great to look at, but he has longevity. This man (in addition to probably being one of the greatest, if not THE greatest living guitarrist today) has been a cocaine/speed and opiate addict since at least a decade and a half before I was even born. Heroin specifically, too. And he's doing all right. Shoot, he must be in his mid to late sixties now right? Unfortunately, he LOOKS like he has been a drug addict since the beginning of time, but who the hell cares? He's Keith Richards for crying out loud!!!

His pal, Mick is right there alongside him...

Frank Zappa is another admitted heroin addict, and he's alive and kicking...

Robert Plant as well, although he cleaned up his act a while ago..(most if not all of Led Zeppelin died of drug overdoses)

SO those guys are a few examples. Unfortunately, a lot of the younger ones, and more recent ones, were not so lucky. Look at Cobain, dead at 27 from heroin. Jimi dead in 1970, he was also 27 I believe and he was found OD'd...Courtney Love is still alive, technically, but look at her...She is totally disgusting on the inside as well as looks-wise...She was never a "10," but at least in the days of "Hole," she looked like a woman...

There are probably plenty more, but those are who come to mind immediately...

So sure, it is definitely possible to live as long as the non-user, but in many cases, the quality of life is greatly diminished...Often a person looks weathered and haggared, the skin and teeth are terrible, and the eyes become empty and beady...

Contrary to the view held by mainstream society, I am a firm believer in the idea that there absolutely IS such a thing as "responsible drug use," but that has to be elaborated on because some drugs, like stimulants and alcohol, not so much...You'll never find an old tweaker for example...they have all either grown out of it, or they are dead. A similar route ensues for cocaine and base addicts, although true crack-heads are often dead quick, not necessarily due to the base itself, but the life they lead to acquire the drug. Disease is rampant. Alcoholics can live for a long time as well, but is it really "life?" I don't think a ruined liver, a fried brain, diabetes (induced by constant and unforgiving abuse of the pancreas which has to secrete insulin to metabolize the alcohol) and dialysis, in extreme cases, constitute life as I like to think of it...Smokers, too, usually succumb to cancer long before their "time," you know?

Opiates seem to be a little different, as long as the user is a responsible person to begin with and knows his or her limits...Even someone who enjoys intravenous administration can be as productive as someone who snorts, or imbibes orally...

A lot of that probably has to do with the fact that opiates, as pure substances are non-toxic. They are "body-friendly." Personally I think this is due to the reason that they are structurally VERY similar to endogenous chemicals our brains make anyway (endorphin, enkaphalin, etc..) so our body has a *place* for them...

Unlike alcohol, which is a known poison to the body and the brain, and also methamphetamine and cocaine stimulants--> these drugs may mimic natural chems [to some extent], but all they end up doing, is sapping our bodies of our natural stockpiles of dopamine, serotonin, and if the stimulant abuse progresses to a delusional psychosis (which is common for amphetamines, but is very possible with cocaine powder or smoked) nor-epinephrine is sucked dry also...Without serotonin, dopamine and nor adrenalin, the very essence of who we are; our personality, what we find humorous, our capacities for love and affection--- these all are harmed and the result is a fiend; someone who lives each day for that rush...especially true for literal "carck-heads."

Opiates, on the other hand, are a welcome opposite. Some people believe that our brains produce morphine anyway, so other opiates seem to have their place as well. I personally do not believe that. What I do believe is that certain endorphin-like substances are empiracally similar to 'phine, but it's NOT morphine itself...Jury's out on that one though as the "suits" are still doing research...Whatever the case, opiates have such an effect on us, and are safe because they're related to endogenous chems..

Think about it: what other class of drugs is there that has no ceiling to analgesia and euphoria? By that I mean, one can take as much heroin as he likes for example, and suffer little to NO ill effects, worst one being a little nausea perhaps...Please, remember that one's tolerance must permit this however. But as long as one has built up their tolerance to, heroin for example, he or she can have repeated administration of ever-increasing doses of the drug with no problem. (I am not talking about withdrawals and "skinny wallet syndrome," both side effects to increasing your opiate intake; I am talking from a totally physiological point of view ;-)

NO other class of drug is like that. Sure tolerance applies to ALL drugs, but as tolerance raises, so does potential toxicity. Take alcohol. SUre one could have a tolerance of 18 cans of beer in an evening, but will his liver, pancreas, brain and kidneys be happy? Certainly not. Same applies to cocaine and speed type amphetamines. have you ever seen a true "meth-head?" I have, and it's terrible. These are mere shells of human beings, and disgusting to behold.

That isn't true with opiates. Sure, one may lose a little weight, or look "sleepy," or whatever the case may be, but that's about it...Physical and emotional integrity are maintained. (obviously, be responsible you know ;-) Opiate addicts are able to have a stimulating conversation for example, unlike alcoholics or speed freaks (who think they are discussing the secrets of the universe, when in reality they sound like fuckin retards). Opiate addicts are able to maintain employment, and to care for a family...Have you ever seen the total dis-array and sorrow that is a speed freak's family, god forbid they have one, especially the little ones?? Same goes for crack fiends. Look at what some of these people do with or to their children. Neglect basically sums it up. At best a terrible environment. At worst, disease and abuse.
Alcoholics and stimulant-heads lose their self-respect, in many cases. If you are unable to like yourself, then how the hell can you be expected to like, care for, or respect another human?

So, we can see from all that, that opiate addicts can still remain functional members of society. A few criteria that I and others use to judge "functionability" are as follows:

1) Cleanliness and self respect

2) Continued employment-- a profession

3) Dignity

4) Ability to care for and provide for a family, if applicable

5) Intelligence and thoughtful creativity (going beyond where and when the next "fix" will be ;-)

6) Responsibility (paying bills, etc. a car note, whatever YOUR responsibility(ies) entail; mine are different that yours and so on and so on..)

7) Organization (whether at the house, office or elsewhere...a straeming flow of thought patterns that are productive an conducive to healthy living)

8) Awareness of boundaries (don't overstep your limit, say or do something b/c you are loaded; that's what this criterion means)

9) Neat appearance

10) This one is "optional" but it helps: a pleasant, content demeanor!

Motts, your question was excellent, it provoked a lot of thought and emotion from me, and I am really sorry if this was too long, or if I rambled (I tried not to, I swear ;-). I really wanted to cover all the bases, though, and I felt that I should explain some things, just so my fellow opiophiles could get the big picture, so to speak.

That being said, I hope some peeps here liked my response, and of course, thoughts, comments, questions and/or criticisms are welcomed.

Thanks for your time and patience!!

[ein0606]

Robert Plant as well, although he cleaned up his act a while ago..(most if not all of Led Zeppelin died of drug overdoses)


no only john bonham sp? died. i heard they are doing a reunion with bonhams son on drums.

[red26]

I have been thinking about this lately I dunno why....

How do you think most opiate users die? OD? Natural Causes?

Do any opiate users make it into there 80s? 90s? Can you have a junkie lifestyle and live till 90 and die of natural causes?

Just thinking.....
Before I started using smack I had a buddy named Scotty boy. He was around 40 and looked like he was 28. He was an old junkie and and been using H since he was an early teen. Somehow he was one of those people I envy soooooooF-in much because they can function and lead a perfectly normal life except for the fact they use dope. So funny too, the guy was a real character. He finally got extrdited back to nevada for paroll violation and escape. I think there are a chosen few that will be around just about forever miraculously.

Last time I o.d'd there was nothing. It was complete nothingness like in the never-ending story. Seriously though it scared the crap outta me and I started to think that this is what God does to you for dieing from living a life of sin. It was soo bad. It still scares me to the point I can just about cry out of fear.
Then one of my oldest and best boys ya'll know as poonwalla on here o.d.'d and was in a coma for a week after nodding out sitting on his couch with his head tilted back, and he puked and inhaled it all. His girlfriend finds em and calls 911. Really even tho he can be a jack-ass just like me sometimes the world would be alot heavier if he left it.

[candyshop]

sadly, frank zappa is dead--was not a junkie either

[Black_Pony]

My dad was a junky and he made it all the way to the age of 66. Liver cancer finally got him. He had Hep C, too. Not real good for old the liver.

[jdub]

My dad was a junky and he made it all the way to the age of 66. Liver cancer finally got him. He had Hep C, too. Not real good for old the liver.

Wow so you're second generation? My old connect lived in Cokeland and I would come in and his son and him would be shooting together and the 13 year old daughter is on the couch smoking a blunt, watching BET at 11am on tues.

That was a trip. Dude died, and his son is living in the TL. I still see him sometimes. Crazy shit.

[nick]

no only john bonham sp? died. i heard they are doing a reunion with bonhams son on drums.

John Bonham drank himself to death.The only member of Zep that really got in to junk is Jimmy Page.

and Zep played in London late last year-with Jason Bonham on drums.

Zappa may not have been a junky,but he had the best facial hair in rock.

[OxyContinuously]

no only john bonham sp? died. i heard they are doing a reunion with bonhams son on drums.

really? my mistake then bro, i apologize:)

[OxyContinuously]

sadly, frank zappa is dead--was not a junkie either

you know what guys? you're all *right*; i messed up...

i am really very sorry if i mis-quoted in my post...

i definitely confused stuff, and that's my fault...frank zappa is not who i was thinking about and he's passed away...darn, who the hell was it??

i know ozzy had publicized drug problems, and i love ozzy so i'm pretty familiar w/ his biography, but i can't for the life of me remember if for this specific post, i was gonna use ozzy as my example...:confused: i know he is *an* example, but I don't know if he was going to be *the* example...

again, sorry about the mix-up; i don't want to spread wrong info...i would edit my original post, but the "edit" button is gone, cause it's been 2 long..

[Crow]

Don't worry about it Oxy, your intentions were good. Plus, I sure did get a chuckle out of picturing Frank Zappa as a junkie....

[strikks]

oxy your post was awesome, i agree alot. your musicians were a little off, but i get what you are saying.

if someone were to practice almost OCD like harm reduction pratices all there life and did not smoke or drink and ate healthy and exercised and took care of his/her mental health....i think they would live a longer and a happier life than a regular ""square" that did not use opiates and did all that stuff cause like has been said before it is a relatively non toxic substance and does wanders for physical/mental well being.

[OxyContinuously]

oxy your post was awesome, i agree alot. your musicians were a little off, but i get what you are saying.

if someone were to practice almost OCD like harm reduction pratices all there life and did not smoke or drink and ate healthy and exercised and took care of his/her mental health....i think they would live a longer and a happier life than a regular ""square" that did not use opiates and did all that stuff cause like has been said before it is a relatively non toxic substance and does wanders for physical/mental well being.

i agree completely...hey, since we're on the subject of physical and mental well-being, i thought you may be interested in this little snippet i came across recently:

There is a doctor, his name is Dr. Robert Hsiung, and he's a psychiatrist and teacher from Chicago. Anyway, among other things, he is one of *few* docs, esp. psychiatrists, who believe that major depression and related disorders, can not only be successfully treated by opiates, but that they *should* be.

He realized the remarkable effects opiates have on mood, serotonin and dopamine, etc. He is very well practiced in all forms of therapy, prescribes meds on a continual basis, as he sees patients too, and came up with a proposal for treatment. In a nutshell, he described various anti-depressant drugs (ssris, snris,etc.) how they work, and how their mechanism of action fails to alleviate the symptoms of depression..he said that they are excellent meds, and work well for many people who have benefited greatly, but he recognizes that certain depressions respond a lot better to either opiates in conjunction w/ traditional anti-d's, or opiate treatment alone...he elaborated to say that the way in which opiates affect mood positively, are often much better than traditional meds. Opiates act on the pleasure centers, he was saying, and a lot of depressed people lack the natural chemicals to feel pleasure, at least on the level that a non-depressed person may feel it...and that opiates are the only class of drug that are known to act on this center specifically, AND have little to no side effects when used responsibly..he acknowledged the fact that you do not have to suffer from the controversial ailment, "Endorphin Deficiency Disorder" in order to be treated effectively w/ opiate-based medication...of course those sufferng from that would glean the *most* benefits, mood-wise, but depressed people in general would do so much better, and suicide rates would plummet, he said. And I agree...

so that's pretty hopeful, i thought? what do you think?

also, i came across another article that talks about treating "major depressive disorder" with either oxycodone or oxymorphone, depending on the person, and their history, etc...Actually if any of you guys wanted to read it, it's on "opioids dot com" and i'll provide a link: http://opioids.com/antidepressant/opiate.html

I thought this one was gold, in the sense that it was "a notch in the opiates' belt" for once. Why did I say that? Well, b/c in the article, three people were discussed; two of whom were prior abusers/addicts to opiate substances. The third was an individual who was depressed, clinical reason unknown, however it had nothing to do w/ abuse or addiction. Bottom line is that all three of these people responded beautifully w opiates in their regimented medicaltreatment. in fact, once being treated w/ the opiates, these three people went the longest without recurrance of the symptoms for which they sought help in the first place. IOW, the depressed people had more and more time periods elapse in which they were free of depression, and there was one person who was bipolar, and even for them, opiate treatment allowed them to have a marked increase in the intervals of time between "being normal" and having a "mainc episode" or whatever happens when one is bipolar (I don't really know, but I know the "bi" in bipolar means mood swings)

I thought these were great and it shows me that there is *hope* for the future of opiates, after all. It may take a long time, but slowly people are starting to realize that opiates have a lot of intrinsic benefits, often hidden to everyone but the most careful observer, and a lot of times discovered by chance...

I think society should come around, gradually, and start to re-think their tyrannical categorization of narcotics...

thanks for reading this

[SynthMorph]

Being and opiate addict is a high risk lifestyle. Many die from hep C, AIDS and ODs. Others end up in prison for life or commit suicide. Being on some sort of maintenance treatment dramatically increases your chances of living to an old age by decreasing the risky behaviour associated with acquiring opiates.

[Black_Pony]

Ya, I'm second generation for sure. My parents first met one another at the 'done clinic. Thats as second generation as you can get, I suppose.

I don't think the TL was the place to cop back then. One time I drove around the city with my mom and she showed me all her old cop spots. They all had been cleaned up with nice buildings and only white people as far as the eye could see.

Wow so you're second generation? My old connect lived in Cokeland and I would come in and his son and him would be shooting together and the 13 year old daughter is on the couch smoking a blunt, watching BET at 11am on tues.

That was a trip. Dude died, and his son is living in the TL. I still see him sometimes. Crazy shit.

[JMill420]

As long as you take the right precautions theres no reason not to live to be old. Just like WSB

[I-Nod]

Opi's are the Fountain of Youth... if you can keep from drownin'. :)

[HowLongIsTooLong]

This thread is the most 'opi-philic' one I have seen on here... Oxycontinuously, you're like the opi lawyer... what a post!!

BUT, not all junkies are so rosy, I must say... it's unfortunate, but I DO agree that junkies are more able/equipped to deal with life in general than a hardcore speed or crack addict. Heh, comparing drug addicts... I am sure the republicans would have a field day with that topic. Probably end up as a discussion of 'extreme late-term abortion candidates'... like, 'Abortion is still feasible in the case of any drug addict up to the 300th month...'

Like your posts, Oxy

D

[motts]

I am glad I created a post that has touched so many, now where is my damn rep. points, ya'll :)

just playing.

I think everyone has good insight on this post. and through good spiritual thoughts / positive relations / exercise / and healthy living with the use of opiates we can live as long as any other human.

peace ya'll

[jonny-5]

ya, what all you guys said. great insight oxyc, you have the ability to express in words the shit that i can only think in my head, and some how manage to leave out when im typing a speech like that.