PAWS and the validity of it all???

[Frank Zito]

I came across this response by Frank Z. (a member I thought was sorta' cool. His shit is in blue) to a post about someone on the "edge of addiction". Here's the response...

I copied and pasted this from another post I made...I felt that it is SOMEWHAT relevent to the topic at hand.

A lil' about my use first. I am a sporadic binge opiate abuser who took a long time to actually develop a habit. I am also very fortunate to be one of those people who don't kick very hard. I have had some hellacious Dee-Toxes also though. I kept/keep a decent juggling act, but I go HARD when I GO HARD. Currently, I been MOSTLY staying away. I have been up to a 1 to 2 gram, habit for months on end before. I have also kicked multi week ounce binges with little to no W/D's and caught (a buzz) sporadically after those with little to no side effects. I have also used for a couple days after abstaining for weeks and tried to chill on day 3 or 4 and have gotten pretty sick. I don't know if this is RARE or my system is a lil' diff. WHATEVER.

At first I was gonna toss a "pro chipper" argument there...Then I got to thinking a little bit...Well, THERE ARE CHIPPERS out there but I bet most of them are those types that occasionally get percs or hydros on the weekend or whatever. I don't know. I look at my own usage and DAMN. I guess I'd have to write a BOOK in order to get whatever points across that I'm trying to make. I PROBABLY fall into a category that would be labeled as "BINGE ADDICT". WHEN shit gets too out of control I usually reign myself in. IF I GO HARD for a couple of months I KNOW what I'm in for and don't give a shit. I MAKE the decision to get STRUNG OUT and decide to deal with consequences and W.D.'s later. Then, when it comes time to QUIT, I DO. I RIDE out the storm and try stay "clean" for a while.

SOMETIMES tho, the getting clean part was pretty tough. I HAD TO FUCKING struggle to get where I wanted to be a few times. It took me a while to figure out that I was even an ADDICT. Plenty of other people have told me I was...RIGHT NOW THO, I DON'T SEE MYSELF AS AN ADDICT as I'm pretty CLEAN lately and am not having a hard time staying that way. I'm not sure if I am doing more damage to myself this way or not, like fucking up my brain...but I don't feel like I am. I usually get back to NORMAL within 10 days after cessation of opiates and I have going through this type of cycle for YEARS with some pretty decent "CLEAN" runs.

If you think you ARE on the EDGE don't necessarily mean you're too far gone. I think that this is BULLSHIT. DON'T TELL URSELF that or you'll believe it, then you'll really be fucked. Everyone is different.
I KNOW people who were VERY young when they dove HEADFIRST into the game and after a YEAR and a HALF pulled out and haven't touched anything since. I also know people who have done opiates like 5 times over a period of a month and when they get some sort of knowledge about being strung out they convince themselves that they are DOPESICK. I think that 67% of this game is mental. I find the more I know about this shit the less I like it. I FONDLY remember they days when I'd just cop some bags, bang some shots over a week and not think about it afterwards. I got DOWN like that for a few YEARS.

WHo Knows...Watch yourself and do what you think is best. I do believe tho that if your LOOKING for something you will FIND it even though it might not be there in the first place. Sometimes knowledge is dangerous. You can fool yourself into believing anything. I mean I know I can.

I have been thinking about PAWS and shit lately, also the mental aspects of "sudden cessation syndrome" A.K.A. "kicking", and I have a lot of different opinions and conflicting ideas, most based upon my own experiences.

My use is pretty much like FZ said his was. I have been hitting it hard lately and a week ago I had no dope for about 4 days. I had Suboxones but refused to take them because I just knew I'd run into dope eventually. I had very minor, if any WD's throughout this time even though I was doing no less than 200 mgs. of M and 5 bags of H of H daily along with the occasional Dilly tossed in the mix for almost 2 months straight. My last dose of anything was a measly 20 mgs. of Done around 11 p.m. the night before the 96 hour or so mini-drought I endured.

I think so much of our agony is in our heads when we can't have what we want. I don't know. I highly doubt the existence of PAWS also.

Anyone else???

[Thanat0s]

200mgs of morphine and 5 bags(~500mgs) heroin daily with no w/d?!?!
for 2 months?
no breaks?

im not calling bullshit or intending to stir up anything with you other than a rational discussion, but damn... that just dont sound right, ya know...

now, there IS validity to the mental/perceptual component of physicall addiction and withdrawl. ill even admit it is a MAJOR factor in determining the degree to which one suffers...

to doubt or downplay the real 'bricks and mortar' PHYSIOLOGY of opiate addiction is however, absurd.
granted, one who is relatively naive to opiod dependance/use can certainly will themselves into mild withdrawl symptoms. but, there is no argument that something physical is going on inside the afflicted, manifest in a definite and unmistakable assortment of conditions we call withdrawl.

PAWS it seems comes into play mostly following long long periods of habituation and logically so. when you alter your body's physical state that consitently of course it will take a long time to fully re-establish a post drug equillibrium. should be noted that the occurrence of PAWS is highly individualized, whats true for you (the particulars of duration/dosing/preexisting makeup etc) may not be true for another.

i think though, it is pretty established as fact that given a large enough sample that PAWS does indeed exist.

i have personally experienced mild PAWS. sadly i have not given myself enough clean time in this past almost 2 year run to know the severity of my current sitation. however in my brief binges of sobriety once the acute symptoms subside something lingers that just aint right. in the past(approx 7 years ago) i had a breif. isolated habit(maybe 6 months of non daily, very light use) and once i got over the kick i had no post acute symptoms. THIS time, i think i broke the bank so to speak. i only hope a lifetime of maintinece wont be neccessary but it is a real danger for me to experience chronic PAWS as it may drive me to suicide.

opiates are now in essence my antidepressant. it may stay that way?

anyways, good post.
thanks.

[Frank Zito]

Yeah Than...No WD's and I went without for a little over 96 hours. I had some very mild symptoms like some sort of restless feeling in the core of my body, but that's about it. No lie. I was wondering if it was my one free pass and I was gonna' maybe try to make a clean break, but I fucked that up by using again. I might be confined for a month or two and I'll know in 2 weeks and I am dreading what I may be in store for. I'm gonna' go loaded to the gills and CT where ever I am.

If the above scenario does play out like I think it may, I'll post the relevant info on it.

[I-Nod]

I kicked pods and OC's in Dec, and I've yet to feel anything other than a general boredom. If boredom is what "PAWS" is, then yes... it's irritating. But so is a sharp boogar... in that aspect. Eh, I'm grotesque. But that's a complimemtm

I think you're right on when you suggest that so much of the P.I.S.S. (Post Ick Serotonin Syndrome) and M.O.A.N. (Mercy On A Ninja) is all in your head. "Mind Over Matter".... If You Don't Mind; it don't matter.

[jopiated]

I use to have this same type of theory and it seems as though you have all the answers to the problem. I use to think being dopesick wasn't real and that people were just making it seem bad so they could justify there continued use. I actually thought I could beat the w/d's and I was just one of those people that didn't experience them as bad as other people. It seems as if everytime I would start up again after quitting for a while, even months or years, my level of tolerance/addiction would gain quicker and quicker everytime. The more I went back the worse the w/d's would get everytime until I had a full blown physical addiction. I do wish you were right, but no. Tell us something, how old are you? Physical w/d's are very real and if you are at a point where you can get away from it then you should just stop. Especially if you realize that you're not liking what you learn.

[RobOC]

It took me a long time, about four to five months of use, before I really got a good look at the monkey on my back. For the longest time I just thought that I was "special" and that w/d wouldn't happen to me. I even used this fucked up rational to justify using all of my OC while on a family trip, because there was no way that I would actually get sick. I got sick as fuck. It was then that i realized I was just like any other junky. Nothing special. That was about five years ago. I have kicked a lot since then and each time it gets worse. As for PAWS I experience it. They say it kicks in about 3 months after cessation and that is when I always relapse. It has happened several times so I no longer think it to be just a coincidence.

[wafflehead77]

The first year I was using, I could go on 1-2 month runs, and not have too many problems upon quitting. However, as Jop. stated, the more you go back, the worse it gets.

It wasnt until a solid 3-4 month run, without no more than a 24-36 hour cessation on a few occasions, that I caught "the sickness". Now, I can stay clean for months (not likely to happen often), use for a 4 days and be sick as shit. It seems that once you are a "carrier" so-to-speak, you are susceptible. At least I am.

Ad as others have said, if you are still new to the game, quit now. I know it is easy to say, and hard to do, but mustering the willpower to quit for a month, in order to stave off addiction, is much easier than quitting once you are sick.

[starglazer33]

Oh Yeah!! It be real my friend, run like the devil if you can.

The thing about w/d's and the sickness is everyone is different but no matter, they all fall down!!!!

In some it rears right away, in other it takes forever. I know that my friend w/ cerebal palsey and like four othrs were all waiting around sick as a dog and dis one guy Jason was his name would never get sick. We couldn't figure it out, I mean we were absolutely dumbstruck. but we knew it wouldn't last then one day like outta da blue,after he'd been using for like two yrs w/narry a problem, then It happened!! I think it was like day two or tree,(long time ago) He woke up ran to the toilet was trowin up and shyting all over the place and it was on. He gave us that look when he came outta da bathroom, had that look in his eye,"lets go! Lets go now!"

We all just started teasing him and saying his old famous words against him only in a long, whiney annoying voice="Come on man, just be patient, wtf the matter with you. You can certainly wait til we get back its just fifteen more mins. ahaaaaaaaaaaaa!"

I study majick and the basic law of nature the only law of mother nature is 'there is an exception to every rule' She follows her own code and same with our bodies chemistry and dope and drugs.One can never really walk in anothers shoes. Tolerance, effects, abilities, characteristics,looks and all everyone is different is the only thing you can count on. The only solid truth though is PAWS is a reality sad fact but none more true! Like it love it or leave it, but dats how it is...
If I were you I would heed the warnings here and just leave. Go out on a little nature walk, act like this never happened and just never come back.

Sorry last last line was from my favorite movie just seemed to fit couldn't resist:rolleyes:, but its true count your blessings you've never had the pleasure. run like the devil!

good luck hope you miss out..............sg33

[Nate]

PAWS is very real.

My experiences include complete boredom, severe depression (anything I have ever enjoyed is boring, sadness, lonliness, utter despair), insomnia, no motivation, and some days with no energy.

I experienced all of the above for about 3 weeks (after physical w/d) before I actually started to feel better, but not even close to normal. Unfortunetly I have thrown all that hard work away by a little binge, not sick, but paws are kicking my ass now.

They are hard to deal with, but if you keep motivated you can beat them. I have recieved lots of strategies from fellow opiophiles, I would be glad to spread the information if anyone needs the help.

[jopiated]

The worse part is when the real bad physical shit subsides and the insomnia rears it's ugly head. I have went months without getting more than an hour of sleep before "IT" wakes you up. I guess that is one of the last real physical w/d's that you notice. You go through it at first but you don't notice it because of the violent physical w/d's you're going through, when they go away, you're left with the insomnia. It's all you want is to sleep but you just will stay awake for days for no reason, when you do fall asleep the nightmares wake you up quickly. I use to have them about these huge syringes, like 4 feet long and a foot around. I will be trying to use it but can't because it's too big. Then the good dreams of actually getting high wake you up before you feel anything. I will probably be on done for the rest of my life now, I think going through this will mess up peoples minds. It did mine.

[zenpunk]

At 3+ months the night terrors are finally going, but the leg cramps remain....

[candyshop]

to me PAWS is the REAL problem
the sickness ,unholy, vile ,painful and horrid as it is ,almost serves as a distraction in its intensity--

for those 3-7 days i am focused on the acute physical misery
i have kicked for a week lotsa times--it is when i physically start to feel o.k. that the nightmare begins-

black ,black ,black despair, pain ,pain and pain,a complete inability to feel anything positive,time drags-seconds are endless, anxiety,guilt,sorrow ,grief ,
feelings of unreality and disconnectedness
dysphoria, malaise, lethargy ( brushing my teeth seems like an enormously burdensome chore)-i can not do anything-no will at all-

boredom that goes so far beyond boredom that we need a new name for it,like i am entirely made of boredom particles-
all i want to do is sleep but can't--and it just drags oooooonnnnn.....

in 7 years, the longest i was able to exist in this state was a month
my Dr. gave me clonodine,soma,xanax,darvocette,lomotil and effexor to help--it didn't (i don't think)


PAWS is super duper real to me ,and it was PAWS and pain ,not the w/d's that always brought me back

i can suffer for a few days,a week -but not endlessly -my survival instinct kicks in and i go in search of....

[jdub]

I really find exercise to help w/ PAWS. That and sex. I guess sex is the best kind of exercise though right?

[norseman]

I just kicked 3 weeks ago from a 6 month binge. I prepared first and tapered, switched to PODS (not sure if that was the right thing) got some benzos, immodium ect.. I went 3 days with minor withdrawals and I thought this was my free ticket, because in the past I would have been in full blown W/Ds by the 2nd day, anyways I was wrong that 3rd night I got really sick!!!

But one thing that I now realize was the worst, was my TAPER. During my month long taper I was sick everyday, not horribly, but enough to make that month a living hell for me.

When I eventually kicked I wasn't functional at all for about a week, and the last two weeks I have been incredibly bored, lazy, unmotivated and depressed. Plus the only way I can get any sleep is with benzos or sleeping pills. Which I am now really concerned about.

So now I am really worried after reading that PAWS kicks in after 3mths. That is just not fair!!!! We go through sooo much just to get clean, and then 3mths later we get hit again. Screw off!!!

Thats my story and VENT for the evening :-)

EASY