Switching to Bup? Read this first!!

[jopiated]

O.K. well the first thing I have to say is that I am probably about to get flamed so fucking bad by a couple people but I deserve it from them because they did try to warn me. With that said this is my experience with bup. I have been on 55 mg.'s of methadone for 6 months and had been very curious about bup due to all the advertising and promotions around for it. I did ask and some people swear by it and others say it's bullshit!! It's very difficult to sort through all the info/mis info about it. I went to an appointment last week and the doctor told me what a "Fantastic Drug" it is and wrote me a script. I had went off my done for 4 days and thought that should be good and was in w/d's!! Boy oh boy was I ever wrong!! My first day was horrible I was already in w'd's so when I took it they got amplifiedx1000. That night I tried to go to sleep and had restless leg syndrom so bad I was shaking the whole bed. Day 2 I dosed with the same symptoms as before with an added headache and felt like sweat was being squeezed out of my pores? That night I still couldn't sleep but I was determined to tough it out. Day 3 I dosed with all the symptoms as before only now I was having a very hard time breathing. It seemed like a new symptom every day. Mind you, I hadn't taken done for 7 days at this point. By day 4 I was completely done with bup. I now realize there is nothing good about this "Fantastic drug" and I had to waste $400 to find out. I probably could've kicked cold turkey with less side effects. I went back to my clinic, dosed my 55 mg.'s and feel perfect within one hour.

[405FREEWAY]

Yeah, some people claim that done, with it's long half life and all, that you have to wait extra long before you start bupe. The clinic im at, makes you go down to 30mg for 7 days, then be completely off done for 5 more days. So maybe, in theory you did not wait long enough, you still had some done in your system, and the nalaxone reacted with it, and you feeling like shit, was a form of precipitated withdrawl. Now i dont really think this is the case , but hey, maybee? I mean i think 7 days with no opiates should be plenty. I mean did you use anything in that time, I mean the day before, did you take anything?

JOPIATED-And what kind of doctor did you go to? It seems like it was simple, you juat walked in and asked for script of sub? Is that what happened, what kind of doc was it? a clinic? How much did you have to pay?

The reason i ask is, i cant get a doc to write me a script for subs, unless i pay mucho money!!! like $300 bucks, so any info you have might Help!
Thanks.

[jopiated]

Yeah freeway, I had switched to some super short acting opies but hadn't had done for 4 days. I do agree that I probably was experiencing precipitated w/d's, but for 4 days, seems like it would've knocked it off the receptors the first day. The whole point of this thread is just to warn people that in my opinion, bup aint worth it! I could've went cold turkey with side effects that I was expecting. The main thing I couldn't deal with is the breathing problems, I felt like my lungs were shallow. Also, there is no pleasure with bup at all, none, nothing. I know the whole point is to be clean but I guess I need to feel something. You can go to www.naabt.org (http://www.naabt.org) and find a doctor, it probably will come to $300 with the cost of the script. However, if you're on done, I would strongly advise against switching. I know the ads and all the hype make it seem like it is great but it's not. I feel like I got ganked for real. If you are seriously considering it then maybe buy some from a friend just to see if it's really for you, that way you're not stuck. I did go to a reg. doctor too, it was like $120 intake, plus $160 for the script.

[wafflehead77]

Personally, I would switch over to a short-acting opiate at least 2 weeks before switching from 'done to bup. Especially if you have been on 'done for more than a few months. That shit can stick with you for a while.

[jopiated]

Thanks waffle, you are one of the people I was expecting a whippin from due to some past conversations surrounding this or some very similiar subjects. I have definetely found a new kind of respect for ya, seriously. You're cool!! If you still wanna flame me or say " told ya so" then feel free. I guess I just feel so stupid and I am trying to get the word out to people not to waste there time and money on bup, imo it sucks. No real value even just for maintenance.

[allover]

Coming off of heroin, bupe worked great for me. Must just be different peoples bodies react in different ways. While I've never been on methadone, I highly suspect it had something to do with that.

[ZodiacKiller]

Personally, I would switch over to a short-acting opiate at least 2 weeks before switching from 'done to bup. Especially if you have been on 'done for more than a few months. That shit can stick with you for a while.

This (and the other poster who said it) are exactly right. It's the Methadone, for sure---even if you're in withdrawal from it, bupe can precipitate worse ones. Happened to me when they induced me---in fact, at first they wouldn't even give me the Sub after having been off 'Done for a week, without any other opiates. It clings to your receptors harder than probably any other opiate.

I can be way fucked up on heroin, wake up the next morning and take Subutex at the first sign on any sickness, no problem. Usually within 12 hours of doing the smack.

I dunno, it's just my opinion, but you may wanna give bupe another chance.



ZK

[Raz]

Fuckin hell if you guys can go that long wivout any juice you could probably get real clean with not too many probs....

[justonefix]

after reading this thread I feel I should put in my two cents... let me first start with a disclaimer - WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT AND DIFFERENT SHIT WILL DO DIFFERENT SHIT TO EACH ONE OF US N' SHIT -



I was on 40 - 50mgs of methadone (daily via wafers off the street) for about 11 months - went without anything except for benzos for about 3 days - went on 20mg of subutex for 3 weeks - then switched to 20mg of suboxone - tapered down, down, down - and here i am 2 1/2 months later chillin at 6mg daily suboxone and feeling great!!! I had no real withdrawls and the whole thing so far has been pretty goddamn easy.....


the reason I post this is to let people out there (that are looking to get off opies for awhile) know that this stuff DOES work for some of us...

[jopiated]

I have to agree with Raz, if I were able to comfortably get as clean as I would have to in order to switch, I probably would just be able to kick? I do believe the done had something to do with it but the breathing problems weren't from that, were they? I might have done better with subutex, I have heard that alot. Most doctors around here don't wanna prescribe it though which I don't understand. I mean, when somebody is coming from done to bup that should be plenty of reason to write it for tex, right? I have been on heroin for 10 years and that is also part of the problem. Maybe if I taper and stabilize or get a good doctor to write for something short acting I would have been succesful. I think that at this time, nothing short of a full agonist is gonna be good enough for me. I couldn't function at all and the shortness of breath was scary. I also have to admit that I need something I can feel and I couldn't feel anything at all from bup, nothing. The main reason I started this thread is to warn people that wanna switch from done or that have been doing opies for alot of years, you will not feel anything from bup.I am also looking for other people that have had a similiar experience as mine. It's hard to convince people about bup due to how aggressively it is being marketed, that's what happened to me. Now I am stuck with a whole bottle of bup, fuck!!

Another thing I would like to add isa that there seems to be a pattern with the people that are successful with subs. It seems like everybody who has posted that they do o.k. with bup is using subutex, not suboxone. Is there anybody that goes right from done to suboxone that is successful?

[Duckfeet]

I think yer just finding out like all of us, that there are widely differing opinions of subs, just line methadone, some loving'em, some hating'em, and a bunch in the middle, like me, who waver...

My opinion is that longterm addicts, or heroin or methadone, don't do so well on subs as people just going from opy pill addicition to subs.

I paid a lot of money a year or so ago, to do a Palm Beach outpatient program, where they promised they could get me off of methadone to *nothing*, and I went for it, and paid out 5 thousand bucks, and I flew out there--I was at 40mg daily, mdone--and they put me at first for a week on oxycontin, 40mg, twice a day, then started me on subutex, around 16mg, dropping every few days down to zero...which worked fine...until day three of zero, where I got sick sick sick, and craving got me, and scored heroin, and eventually began once more, back and forth nonsense between heroin, methadone maint, and subutex.

I agree, I don't "feel" subs, so that's part of the problem, tho I found the NAABT.org website, to be very useful, as I located a local doc, more than willing to perscribe me *subutex* as I was adamant in not wanting suboxone, for mostly personal reasons: just don't like adding shit to the mix, and of course, I tried fixing them, a couple times, but it didn't do shit for me...

But anyway, I do know people who've had very good luck in trying to get off dope altogether, by using subs, and others like you, like me, who haven't had such good luck with them, and as far as the "precipitated withdrawals" seems like there are experiences all over the map on that one, tho it does sound like that is what happened to you....

Mostly, I just have fear of higher doses, and long term effects of subs. I read--and was active on--heroin-detox.com in the suboxone forum, and there are some "stickys" and other posts by oldtimers who had pretty negative experiences with subs...

But again, my opinion is that those of us who are longterm addicts, particularly of heroin or methadone, don't have much luck w/subs, and I for one keep a stash of them, but haven't been tempted to try them again in over a year....

I myself continue w/slow detox off of methadone, and now have doc who perscribes me mdone pills, and I'm down from 100mg daily to 30mg daily, but I still admire European's and English who are willing to try heroin maintenance, and until that day comes, everything is "second choice" to me....

Best wishes

df

[Suboxstitute]

Yeah - it's tough since there is/are so many good and bad experiences reported about bupe.

And people are so damn PASSIONATE about their opinions - it's an evil devil drug vs. it saved my life. So it's hard to sort out. And woe be to the person who posts the wrong opinion on the wrong forum! FLAME THROWERS come out like crazy! At least here we can have a civilized discussion.

I am in a "sub group" now (which is nice, we're all in the same boat, everyone from heavy heroin users, to 'done switchers, IV users, to just plain boring pill poppers like myself . I think I am in the easier group to switch to bupe - from oxy or hydro, even high doses ...it was an easy move for me). Now, the consequences 7 months later? When I hoped I'd be off? That is another thread. But it's been more good than bad for my overall life and relationship with my husband.

The people I've talked to in real life, and on the boards who seem to have SOME luck with the switch from 'done to bupe is to (A) get down to that low dose (30mg) and then (B) switch over to a short-acting opiate like IR oxy for a week to ten days. That seems to work fairly well if you're committed to it. (Someone else mentioned this above as well).

People in my group who went from done to bupe - if they stuck it out their first 4-5 days were pretty shitty did stablize and most went on to do real well, and are now down to their last 2mg of taper (by far the hardest). The fact that they are in the group shows a skewed sample of course; they're the ones that made it work.

but it is workable if you want to work it, it's just really a bitch because of the half life of done. I wish the standard protocol would be IN ALL CLINICS to switch done users to short-acting opiates for even two weeks before starting them on sub. I'll bet it would make a big difference in success. But nobody feels like writing an addict more scripts for a different opiate.

[jopiated]

So do you guys think that I might be better off going to subutex first? I really wish they would just start H Maintenance in the u.s.! There would be so many benefits.

[Suboxstitute]

Some docs start people on subutex anyway (mine doesn't) but that still has the long half life like done.

Going right from done to either form of bupe sometimes causes problems - I still like the idea of a transition week (or two) on a short-acting opiate before starting either suboxone who subutex Then it is easier to get enough of THAT out of your system to go into mid to moderate w/ds and start the sub.

Just my .02, I'm not an expert. Just hanging with the bupe people these days.

Sue

[Opiyum]

Another thing I would like to add isa that there seems to be a pattern with the people that are successful with subs. It seems like everybody who has posted that they do o.k. with bup is using subutex, not suboxone. Is there anybody that goes right from done to suboxone that is successful?


It is never recommended to switch from methadone to suboxone. Success rate will always be very low but this has no negative reflection on suboxone itself. After all they will tell you you aren't supposed to go from meth to subs. Some registered suboxone doctors won't even giev you subs if you have taken methadone that month.
Many people, possible hundreds of thousands, take suboxone and are better because of it. They love it. It didn't get the name miracle drug for no good reason.
I don't like when a person has a bad experience with a drug and decides that because of that experience, even if they went against the recommendations of said drug, that they should tell everyone else not to use the drug.
It happens a lot with suboxone for some reason. Junkies, I'm guessing, would rather believe that there is no hope and will quickly disregard any drug that claims to have the answer to addiction.
I don't think suboxone is really a "miracle" drug but it sure is helpful and has, I'm sure, save many lives. Maybe that's all it takes to be classified as a miracle.

Next time, if there is one, you should at the very least go back onto your DOC for a week or two after quiting the meth. Then go on the subs.


y opinion is that longterm addicts, or heroin or methadone, don't do so well on subs as people just going from opy pill addicition to subs.


I don't think this is the case. I have been using a long time now but I wouldn't consider myself a "longterm addict". I've been using ten years but being that I'm only 26 there is no way I could be a long term addict unless I picked up the habit when I was 4 or 5.
Although I know a lot of very long term addicts. I work with these people and the work I do is extremely physical but these guys who are in their late 50's and early 60's who have been using since they were my age are able to do the job while only on subs. Now of course they aren't as comfortable as they could be but most of that is from the natural side effects of a man who has used opiates his whole life and who has done manual labour his whole life.
And yes maybe it won't work nearly as well for an elderly addict as it will for a 2 year pill popper but the point is I have seen it work in long term addicts.
I think the bigger point is that, as we have heard and read a thousand times before, it is different for everyone.

[jopiated]

O.k. opy, I started this thread to kind of level out the information that's available on suboxone. It seems like the info that is out there kind of paints suboxone as a "miracle drug" and I found that is not the case. Methadone has saved alot of lives too but people aren't mass marketing it. I know people have died from done but people have also died from subs too. I would have kept taking them but everyday my lungs got a little shallower and I couldn't breathe. I don't hear anybody talking about that and it lists it as one of the side effects right on the pill bottle. I am just kind of pissed off because I feel like I got duped into spending all this money on some bull shit and maybe I CAN save somebody the hassle. I am not telling people not to use the drug, I am telling them the experience I had with it.

[Opiyum]

People reading the thread deserve to hear all sides of the story. What happened to you is worth hearing but what I'm trying to say is also. Just trying to "even out" the thread itself so to speak.

[Saint]

I switched to subs after 25 years on methadone (waited 4 days cold turkey in between and was on 10 mgs done a day) and felt horrible on the stuff for 9 weeks... Guess everyone is different. I am now on 350 mgs of tramadol by the way and although it's tough it's so far so good.
I will never ever go back on subuxone again. But that's just me.

[Venus]

I have to throw in my experience with switching from done to subs. And after reading other's experiences, count myself lucky. I was on done for several years at 120 mgs and did a quick taper in 14 days to 28 mgs (I think I went down like 8-9 mgs per day). The same day I took my last dose of 28mgs I took 8mgs of suboxone around 6-8 hrs later (my memory is bad so I'm guessimating, but the point is: same day). It took the wds away and I felt OK. 8mgs wasn't strong enough to take away all of it though. The next day I went up to 16 mgs and was good after that, except I did get migraines a few hrs after taking it for the first 11 days. I think tex would have taken care of that but my dr. said no because I wrote on my paperwork that I let this guy admin coke via IV one night and he said I was a IV user. Whatever. At the beginning I had energy but that left after a few weeks, but never got "high" (or what I think of as high) off it.

Now I'm starting my 3rd and hopefully final month of subs and at 2-3mgs per day. I'm having pain issues so it keeps me from getting completely off the subs but that's a whole other story. However, I would never choose subs over done for pain. It desn't work well enough.

[jopiated]

Well it seems like due to the very low abuse potential and just the over all way the drug works, they should be just giving that shit away. It definetely isn't worth what they charge for it, plus the office visits. It does seem as though people that are successful with it are the ones that haven't been using for a real long time.
I really don't care what anybody else "Likes"!! I don't like when people act like being on subs is any better or different than being on methadone. IT'S LIKE YOU ARE CLAIMING THAT A JUNKY ON SUBS IS SOMEHOW BETTER THAN A JUNKY ON METHADONE. The problem is that methadone has been used for over 20 years and subs have only been out for 5 years. As soon as some bad side effects pop up from long term use of suboxone or even the naloxen in it, then the same people that are advocating subs will be suing R&B Pharmaceuticals. I am simply just stating my opinion and experience.

[Thanat0s]

jOp, im not sure the point youre attempting to make, other than 'bupe is shit, it aint worth it...'

now im no sub advocate, i have a lot of trouble with it myself... i am currently on a bupe implant but am using H daily pretty much.

thing is for some people both long term, short, pill or heroin... bupe does indeed work like a miracle. for some people it is absolutely worthless. a lot of it has to do with induction. to give bupe a fair shot one needs to first taper their habit as low as can go on a short acting opiate. next wait wait wait until withdrawls are as bad as you can stand... then wait some ore. start dosing 2mg subling, wait 30 min to see how you feel and dose again if need be. repeat until you are comfortable. you will NOT 'feel' much of anything, which is partly the point, to break the pleasure response reinforcement of taking a drug that is the primary motivator for addiction in the first place. if you simply camt get by without an opiate 'lift' bupe simply will not give you what you desire.

most users need no more than 16mgs for induction, beginning a taper shortly after... and it is pretty easy for most to taper HARD on bupe, down to about 2mgs which serves as a great baseline maintinence dose. id recommend a maint term no lnger than 3 months if you can hack it but ive known folk on it for years with varied degrees of negative side effects. the shorter the better... tapering to doses as small as .25mg is sometimes needed before juming off to 0.

rapid, frequent switching from doc to bupe, doc to bupe... aka 'vacations' are not advised as the bupe seems to be less and less of a miracle each cycle.

the breathing probs you mention might be a new withdrawl symptom? bupe does somap
ewhat depress breathing in some but it has never been noticable or bothersome in anyone ive spoken to.

i have had bupe 'work' for me until i chose one day to get high... im sur e when im ready it will work again as the 'miracle drug' that it really can be. and for a lot of lucky users bupe really is a miracle drug. just gotta give it a try, a fair try before you know. really, the cost is a comaratively small price to pay to be free from a lifetime of opiate addiction, imho...

honestly, claiming bupe is simply 'shit' is about as misinformative as all the pro bupe propaganda... if youre trying to help people by offering a contrasting viewpoint, try to do it in an educated informative manner, you might actually help someone that way...

[Opiyum]

Well it seems like due to the very low abuse potential and just the over all way the drug works, they should be just giving that shit away. It definetely isn't worth what they charge for it, plus the office visits. It does seem as though people that are successful with it are the ones that haven't been using for a real long time.
I really don't care what anybody else "Likes"!! I don't like when people act like being on subs is any better or different than being on methadone. IT'S LIKE YOU ARE CLAIMING THAT A JUNKY ON SUBS IS SOMEHOW BETTER THAN A JUNKY ON METHADONE. The problem is that methadone has been used for over 20 years and subs have only been out for 5 years. As soon as some bad side effects pop up from long term use of suboxone or even the naloxen in it, then the same people that are advocating subs will be suing R&B Pharmaceuticals. I am simply just stating my opinion and experience.

What "they" charge varies doctor to doctor and pharmacy to pharmacy. For people in my area it's going to be cheaper to maintain on suboxone than methadone on a monthly basis. If you factor in someone who has health insurance than your looking at a legal partial agonist for under 50 bucks a month and you don't have to go to a clinic in the morning 6 days a week. You also don't need permission to go on a fucking vacation.
Saying that your just stating your opinion and experience isn't helping you any. Your just not being very rational about all of this.
We get it. You didn't find any benefit from your subs and blew four hundred dollars.
If this happened to everyone subs wouldn't be around anymore. It's simple supply and demand and the demand is great and for good reason. Same goes for methadone.
Personally I would much rather be on Methadone but because of where I live it's more expensive and more of a pain in the ass so I choose not to.
Oh and long term use is never recommended. Yes there are some sub "clinics" ( more like factories pumping junkies in and out the door all day) that will maintain a person however long they want to be on but any good doctor who actually cares about the patient and prescribes the medicine as intended will promote tapering and eventually put you on the path to quiting all together. Suboxone is not good for your digestive system, your liver or general well being so not only do doctors not want people being on them for long periods but most patients don't either.

IT'S LIKE YOU ARE CLAIMING THAT A JUNKY ON SUBS IS SOMEHOW BETTER THAN A JUNKY ON METHADONE.It's odd that you say this because you are clearly trying to do the same thing but on the other end of it. The whole "yet to be discovered long term side effects" aspect of your post is a poor attempt at trying to make subs look like the devil's drug and it's based on some ridiculous assumption that someday there will a class action lawsuit against R&B.
You are a hypocrite and as transparent as a freshly windexed window.
My lord! People have od'ed on subs?!? I'm shaking in my boots.
Death is a side effect from (pulling this out of the air but probably not far off) 75% of the presrcription available in the US right now.

[jopiated]

Personally I would much rather be on Methadone but because of where I live it's more expensive and more of a pain in the ass so I choose not to.
Oh and long term use is never recommended. Yes there are some sub "clinics" ( more like factories pumping junkies in and out the door all day) that will maintain a person however long they want to be on but any good doctor who actually cares about the patient and prescribes the medicine as intended will promote tapering and eventually put you on the path to quiting all together. Suboxone is not good for your digestive system.

It's odd that you say this because you are clearly trying to do the same thing but on the other end of it. The whole "yet to be discovered long term side effects" aspect of your post is a poor attempt at trying to make subs look like the devil's drug and it's based on some ridiculous assumption that someday there will a class action lawsuit against R&B.
You are a hypocrite and as transparent as a freshly windexed window.
My lord! People have od'ed on subs?!? I'm shaking in my boots.
Death is a side effect from (pulling this out of the air but probably not far off) 75% of the presrcription available in the US right now.



Well well well, it looks like a whole army of 2 has popped up to defend the honor of bup. First off, I never said bup was shit, ever. The whole purpose of this thread was to get a different point of view that hadn't been expressed, get it? Hence the name. It wasn't to argue the effectiveness of suboxone. I don't know what your reading level is but if you read my posts I said that the methadone probably had something to do with it. My whole point was that I would rather be on methadone and I state that quite clearly and then you say, "Personally I would much rather be on methadone but because of where I live it's more expensive, yet I am the hypocrite, how's that work? Are you advocating methadone or bup or what? It really seems as though you are just mad that you have to do bup because of your circumstance. You are trying to start some juvenile argument w/ me like you think suboxone is so great and then you actually state that you'd much rather be on methadone, WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT? Also if the other poster thinks bup is so fucking great then why would you be doing dope with the implant? I don't hardly ever do dope anymore and I have opportunities all the time. I am simply trying to level the information available to those interested in actual experience. It's like this, I have been going to a methadone clinic for 7 months and haven't dropped dirty one time, you have a fucking buprenorphine implant and openly admit to using H every fuckin day. That's a true miracle drug right there, the cure for opiate addiction. I think people are giving bup too much credit for the hard work they do to get clean, it's not the bup, it's the persons will power. Like I said, I don't wanna argue about the effectiveness of bup, I just wanted to post my experience.

[Opiyum]

First off both of us who are "defending the honor of bupe" both clearly said we aren't. Once again you are putting words in peoples mouths. It's because you're not very bright and had such a bad experience that you want to believe that there are people here bowing down at the altar of suboxone.



Yeah I think methadone and subs are both great.
Just stating your experience would have been fine but you did more that than.
I'm advocating neither bupe nor methadone. I'm advocating the people that read this thread not to listen to your bullshit. Because that's all it is.

Drugs and the people who pursue prescriptions of them is completely subjective but that was not your approached when you advised against suboxone.
What happened to you when you went on subs and then eventually got off the subs is as far as it should have gone.
But because you wasted four hundred dollars (because of your own ignorance and naivete) you got you panties in a bunch and decided to start making up all kinds of bullshit about suboxone that isn't true. Although there is a lot of it here misinformation is not something we need more of on this site. I spend most of my time here cleaning that kind of shit up so I'm sorry if I'm coming off as a little aggresive....No fuck that. I'm not sorry. Your just another one of these people who thinks they know everything there is to know but really doesn't know a damn thing.
I'm not wasting anymore time with you. It has become clear to me that you are very young and it's just not worth it to make you understand. A Hammer to the head would be the only cheap and effective way.

[Thanat0s]

j-op,
i have no need to really respond or defend anything... if you want to know the truth your own words and, ehm, 'tact' perfectly discredit anything youre saying.

your opinionseems to amount to no more than misinofrmed ignorant rhetoric. im sorry to say you have failed at giving someone an honest 'other side' of the coin here. there are many many books written on how to construct an argument and/or influence people.

again, im no bupe advocate and am rightly a dumbass for using dope while on buope maintinence. but at least i try to only speak with authority when i am actually informed on the topic at hand.

bottom line? bupe is a miracle for some folk, a devil for others, methadone likewise, possibly more pn the negative side... give me diamorph maintinence any day of the week!

now, i really really think you should launch some childish attack again, it really helps to make your case...

[Thanat0s]

my posts in this thread exist simply to give ACCURATE information on the subject for the benefit of those here seeking such information.

and im not sorry either, this is a harm reduction/user advocacy site and ill not stand for someone with a personal agenda detracting from its primary purpose as a resource all too rare in the square world.

[jopiated]

O.K. well the first thing I have to say is that I am probably about to get flamed so fucking bad by a couple people but I deserve it from them because they did try to warn me. With that said this is my experience with bup. I have been on 55 mg.'s of methadone for 6 months and had been very curious about bup due to all the advertising and promotions around for it. I did ask and some people swear by it and others say it's bullshit!! It's very difficult to sort through all the info/mis info about it. I went to an appointment last week and the doctor told me what a "Fantastic Drug" it is and wrote me a script. I had went off my done for 4 days and thought that should be good and was in w/d's!! Boy oh boy was I ever wrong!! My first day was horrible I was already in w'd's so when I took it they got amplifiedx1000. That night I tried to go to sleep and had restless leg syndrom so bad I was shaking the whole bed. Day 2 I dosed with the same symptoms as before with an added headache and felt like sweat was being squeezed out of my pores? That night I still couldn't sleep but I was determined to tough it out. Day 3 I dosed with all the symptoms as before only now I was having a very hard time breathing. It seemed like a new symptom every day. Mind you, I hadn't taken done for 7 days at this point. By day 4 I was completely done with bup. I now realize there is nothing good about this "Fantastic drug" and I had to waste $400 to find out. I probably could've kicked cold turkey with less side effects. I went back to my clinic, dosed my 55 mg.'s and feel perfect within one hour.



I'm still baffled by your statements. If you read my post, all I did is write my experience with bup, I didn't add or subtract anything, where do you get off saying I did? Who's putting words in who's mouth? How the fuck do you know what my experience with bup was like? I am fine with you wanting to disagree about something but don't try to come into a thread I started and attack me. We were having an educated discussion about what I might do differently and what I might have done wrong until you 2 showed up and started trying to insult everybody. You know, the thing is that I wanted this shit to work more than anybody. I am not that young either, I'm actually 27 yrs. old. I have been going to a clinic for 7 months without dropping one dirty urine. I don't have any reason to lie about my experience, who do you think you are to try and tell me I added shit to it? Why don't you start your own thread instead of coming to mine and starting bull shit. Oh yeah, I don't need a fuckin book to teach me how to argue, I don't get into it like that. In case you hadn't noticed, this thread was doing just fine until you got here!!

[bronyraur]

^^^Ummm, you quoted yourself...who ya talking to?

[jopiated]

I still don't see how you can say I was making up all kinds of shit about suboxone? How the fuck do you know what I did or did not go through? There ARE no "facts" that can discredit what I posted because all I posted is what I experienced which was restlees leg syndrom, precipitated w/d's, headache, and alot of sweating, I also was having some breathing problems. Why don't you read some other peoples posts like saint. I am not the only person in the world to have a bad experience with bup. If I were to say something like bupes half life is only 6 hrs, then you could say that facts discredit what I posted. I didn;t though, I just stated what actually happened, why are you so adament to try to discredit that?

[Opiyum]

As soon as some bad side effects pop up from long term use of suboxone or even the naloxen in it, then the same people that are advocating subs will be suing R&B PharmaceuticalsIs this something you have experienced or just your misinformed opinion? Reminds me of propaganda.

????????
I am not telling people not to use the drug, I am telling them the experience I had with it.

That's perfectly fine with me but....wait whats this i see.....


I guess I just feel so stupid and I am trying to get the word out to people not to waste there time and money on bup, imo it sucks. No real value even just for maintenance.??????

Hmmmm...seemed to contradict yourself.

It definetely isn't worth what they charge for it, plus the office visits. It does seem as though people that are successful with it are the ones that haven't been using for a real long time.

^^^^Speculation??? Any evidence to back this up??

First off, I never said bup was shit, ever.
REALLY??

not to waste there time and money on bup, imo it sucks.
Like I said, I don't wanna argue about the effectiveness of bup, I just wanted to post my experience.

It seems like you don't even know what you have said in this thread. So I thought I would remind you.
And I have made plenty of threads on plenty of topics. Unlike you who has only made about ten threads and nearly every single one was about you and getting on subs. Do us all a favor and do some more reading and less speculating.

[kdog]

My exp with subs has always been positive. someone mentioned the induction to subs being key, and thats how i feel as well. i wouldnt recommend a done to bupe switch unless you have tapered ur dose and abstained from dosing, after a taper, for at least 7 days. thats why its very hard to make that switch and why many done users have had the same exp. If u are making the switch from H to bupe, than ur initial bupe dose should be increased depending on habit. Subs do work when taken properly.

[Thanat0s]

dude, nobodyis attacking you. we simply want unbiased objective information. what you posted was a bit under the level of quality expected and i personally dont want someone reading this thread and making ANY decisions about their treatment based on it without some retort. its a shame you take this as an attack, i dont even know you, have no reason to attack you. its simply a criticism of your post and an attempt to dispel misinformation and provde relevant information i feel would be helpful.

please, theres no need to attack or even respond here, im not looking for any argument and unless its on topic i decline to repond further to this.

[Saint]

My exp with subs has always been positive. someone mentioned the induction to subs being key, and thats how i feel as well. i wouldnt recommend a done to bupe switch unless you have tapered ur dose and abstained from dosing, after a taper, for at least 7 days. thats why its very hard to make that switch and why many done users have had the same exp. If u are making the switch from H to bupe, than ur initial bupe dose should be increased depending on habit. Subs do work when taken properly.

I waited 4 days cold turkey and then was on subs 9 weeks and felt horrible on the stuff, even after 9 fucking weeks! So we are all different... I agree sub works miracles for some, just not for all..

[OxyContinuously]

jopiated,
maybe you're just one of those dudes that does better with methadone than suboxone...some people have really good results with 'done, but then bupe was a horror show, like what happened 2 you..

i guess i would have to say that if methadone is working well for you, stick with it...

bupe doesn't work for everyone; I think doctors and everyone in the medical field prescribes it freely, but they don't know that much about it...you know since it's relatively new, obviously it's nowhere nearly as well studied and understood as something like morphine for example..so from time to time, things will happen regarding bupe and certain side effects and what not, that were not well-known to medical professionals...there are so many varying accounts of bupe: some swear by it as a miracle drug, others think it doesnt work at all, and still others only find it useful for alleviating WD, but useless for everything else like cutting down on craving...i'm part of the last group.

[bluesubaru]

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v23/n3/full/1395518a.html

Buprenorphine-Induced Changes in Mu-Opioid Receptor Availability in Male Heroin-Dependent Volunteers: A Preliminary Study

this article is worth a read, i had no clue that bupe could cause downregulation of mu receptors...i'm aware that opiates do this to a certain degreee, but this shit is scary. who knows what the long term effects are going to be. the crazy thing is heroin can cause an upregulation of mu receptors!

[Saint]

So that's why I felt soooo much better on heroine than on subs... no seriously though. After quitting H
I have never felt *right* again.. ever... for almost a decade now..

[Thanat0s]

jopiated,
maybe you're just one of those dudes that does better with methadone than suboxone...some people have really good results with 'done, but then bupe was a horror show, like what happened 2 you..

i guess i would have to say that if methadone is working well for you, stick with it...

bupe doesn't work for everyone; I think doctors and everyone in the medical field prescribes it freely, but they don't know that much about it...you know since it's relatively new, obviously it's nowhere nearly as well studied and understood as something like morphine for example..so from time to time, things will happen regarding bupe and certain side effects and what not, that were not well-known to medical professionals...there are so many varying accounts of bupe: some swear by it as a miracle drug, others think it doesnt work at all, and still others only find it useful for alleviating WD, but useless for everything else like cutting down on craving...i'm part of the last group.

doctors over RX bupe like crazy, both in numbers of patients as well as amount per paitient... why they are so restrictive with opies and even methadone but liberal with bupe ill never understand. the majority dont even seem to look forward to the possible consequences of long term use, even with mounting evidence that it may be worse for you than a pill/H addiction long term...

know your shit BEFORE you wind up in a doctors office being sold on any maintinence or detox program for sure.

[bronyraur]

dude, nobodyis attacking you. we simply want unbiased objective information. what you posted was a bit under the level of quality expected and i personally dont want someone reading this thread and making ANY decisions about their treatment based on it without some retort. its a shame you take this as an attack, i dont even know you, have no reason to attack you. its simply a criticism of your post and an attempt to dispel misinformation and provde relevant information i feel would be helpful.

please, theres no need to attack or even respond here, im not looking for any argument and unless its on topic i decline to repond further to this.

Well said Thanat0s.

Lately I've noticed that many of the newer members can't differentiate between a civilized discussion where people disagree, and an all out flame fest.

I honestly don't think it's that hard to figure out that jopiated isn't being attacked. Yes, people are disagreeing with him (and doing it in a civilized manner), but we all have the right to disagree.

Jopiated, it might not hurt to keep a low profile for a while until you see how things really work between members. It wouldn't hurt.

[jopiated]

I'm not going to keep a low profile for nobody. I simply made a thread to explain my experience with bup and had somebody try telling me what I experienced, like I fuckin made it up or something. The main purpose of the thread is to kinda even shit out a little bit. If you really look around on here, the majority of the info is advocating bup or atleast saying it is some kind of miracle drug. There are some posts that don't do that but I just wanna kind of give people a little bit to think about before they make there decision, especially if they are switching from methadone. That's what was pissing me off is that the person who wanted to come into the thread and try to turn it into a debate didn't even realize what the thread was actually about, SWITCHING FROM METHADONE TO SUBOXONE!! Nothing else, that's it. If I made it sound like something else I'm sorry. I really did feel a little bit duped when I started to feel the side effects from suboxone and I just wished I had found a thread like this one, it might have saved me about $400.00!!
I also can kind of see what bluesubaru is saying about the down regulation of the mu-receptors and nobody really knowing what the long term effects from this shit really are. Somebody else said that it is a little to over prescribed, definetely. It seems as though everybody who needs a quick fix to a longterm problem are being tossed onto the bup train, why? Why is it that bup is not nearly as regulated as methadone? I don't understand that either. I don't wanna fight or argue and I don't mind when people disagree with me either, BUT DAMN, can't I share my views without being told what I did or did not experience?

[Thanat0s]

"I'm not going to keep a low profile for nobody..."

:rolleyes:

^^^awesome...

((sighs))

[jopiated]

Today I went in to dose and my clinics doctor offered to put me on subutex, I went right to suboxone last time. I did have some real shitty side effects but now I am wondering if I would do better with tex, what do you guys think? I have heard some people say they didn't like suboxone but did just fine with subutex. Plus if I can't handle it I could just go back to the methadone couldn't I? Let me know what you guys think. Is there a different feeling with subutex?

[chopstix]

I don't wanna fight or argue

Umm.. yes you do.

Today I went in to dose and my clinics doctor offered to put me on subutex, I went right to suboxone last time. I did have some real shitty side effects but now I am wondering if I would do better with tex, what do you guys think? I have heard some people say they didn't like suboxone but did just fine with subutex. Plus if I can't handle it I could just go back to the methadone couldn't I? Let me know what you guys think. Is there a different feeling with subutex?

No. Bup isn't for you. You want to be loaded without playing the H game and you'll never be happy on subs because they have no discernible agonist affect, which is what you're ultimately after.

The success rate for people who attempt to transition from MD to bup is ridiculously low for a reason. MD saturates your body and receptors so heavily that even after 30 days on a short acting agonist, you're still experiencing the effects of the done. Methadone is heavy, heavy shit. I frequently think that the only people who realize this are the people who have ct'd it or witnessed someone who's still dopesick 6 months after they walk. I personally think the shit should be abolished, too many people wind up lifers on it not having a clue what they're getting into. And for the record, I think the jury is still out on bup but it certainly isn't as heavy as MD..

Bup ain't for you. Do a blind detox on the 'done if you want off, you're subscribing to an expensive misery mixing these two drugs.. And what's with the attitude throughout this entire thread, and your comic book avatar? 'roid rage much?? If you're gonna cop an attitude, at least make it interesting.. :rolleyes:

[Princess]

Sorry to go OT, well, actually no, I'm not.
Just wanted to say welcome back Chopstix. Missed ya. ;)

[Thanat0s]

hey yeah, welcome back chop, good to see ya round these parts...

im moving out there next month ya know, so try to find some time to come up for a sail... got an 84 mazda RX7 thatd make a great autro crosser i could bring if yer an interested... like 500 bucks cheap. pm me if yer at all interested...

but yeah, lets go cruise, man... any other bay area opios, hit me up pm... ill need some tour guides for dining, bars, music venues, galleries, shopping etc etc...

[Thanat0s]

oh, and j-Op... chop is right, bupe prob just isnt for you, you will never get a 'lift' from it really and with the 'done use youd have to taper down pretty hard to minimize discomfort enough to hack it on bupe...

your best bet is to look into taper offa that m'done as low as you can goand either maintain or better yet switch to a short actiing agonist, taper taper taper then jump with some comfort meds and be prepared to ride out at least a few weeks of suck... you can hopefully minimize the acute phase to a week or less if you can taper successfully... something i could never 'cept on bupe... that methadone can be a slow train to hell, just ask around...

you never see any real real happy looking oldsters at the 5am dosing window, ya know?

[jopiated]

If I wanted to be loaded I would just play the "H" game, that's not it. Where I live you can buy a pack of dope for $5. I do appreciate your candidness though and you are right about methadone being some wicked shit. I really don't wanna fight or argue either, YOU REPLIED TO MY THREAD, remember? Atleast you didn't go to some weird secret thread and talk shit about me though, thanks!!
My question was, does anybody know if subutex would be any better to switch to, my doctor offered to let me try that this time. Any positive input would be greatly appreciated. If you're one of those people that are looking for little bullshit to start childish arguements about there is this site called Drugs Forum that's ran by a bunch of kids, they might have time for that shit?
I guess Rudy Giullani though that methadone should be abolished too, he actually tried to detox New York and just ran into all kinds of problems. There was an article about it in the Times. He actually had to admit that he was wrong in the end, I guess he realized it was a necessary evil. It is some serious shit but it is needed.

[Thanat0s]

really, the naloxone isnt muchj of a factor at all when taken subligually... youll have prob the same experience you had on the suboxone ass all of your negative symptoms can be attributed to the buprenorphine and the pretty jarring transition(or lack thereof) from done to bupe. if your willing to try it again though and can follow a taper on the done over the next month or so you may be able to get into bupe via 'tex with minimal discomfort.

really though, it sounds like the switch may be a bit rougher than you want to endure... unless you transition in a drastically different manner from last time you will likely have a similar if not identical rough ride this time around, be it on suboxone OR subutex...

[chopstix]

YOU REPLIED TO MY THREAD

You solicited the advice and your bill is in the mail.

Regarding secret threads and forums, there aren't any secrets here, only knowledge, so shut up and read; your questions have been answered.

Thant0s -

D00d - '84 RX7 == CSP and the cheapest spec class in the US is Spec RX7, is it a GS-L?? I know a rotary builder and a ton of Mazda fanatics. The only thing more popular than Mazdas here are BMWs and thats really only in Solo. You got my number brother and I wanna see that boat in person..

Laguna Seca
Button Willow
Thunder Hill
Infineon
Reno-Fernley
:D :D :D

[Thanat0s]

You solicited the advice and your bill is in the mail.

Regarding secret threads and forums, there aren't any secrets here, only knowledge, so shut up and read; your questions have been answered.

Thant0s -

D00d - '84 RX7 == CSP and the cheapest spec class in the US is Spec RX7, is it a GS-L?? I know a rotary builder and a ton of Mazda fanatics. The only thing more popular than Mazdas here are BMWs and thats really only in Solo. You got my number brother and I wanna see that boat in person..

Laguna Seca
Button Willow
Thunder Hill
Infineon
Reno-Fernley
:D :D :D

nah, its just a GS BUT! i replaced the engine about 20000mi ago with an Atkins rotary streetport 12a, 2 1/2in stainless exhaust, no cat, opemed up intake, msd coils... it really would benefit from a gs-l rear end and 14 or 15 inch wheels... but as is its about 20hp up from stock(120 now), 20% which is a shitload seat of your pants boost in such a small light car... even with the live rear axle it handles like a dream, real predictable transition from slight understeer to dragging yer ass oversteer all governed by the artistry of your right foot. its having some low rpm hesitation of late, after i redid the exhaust again... may need emissions gone throu or just removed for track use.

wheni get out there im gonna HAVE to get a 70 alfa spider or another gtv6(check em out if you havent, best vintage autocrosser youll find bone stock) for that hwy17 between sJose and sCruz... youll have to take a day to show me some good runs, i know theres no better road in the US.

ill ring ya when i have my arrival date nailed down... gonna do some kinda 'hey im in cali now' housewarming ish party probably so ill def let your lady friend know... gonna be a fantastic summer methinks...

[chopstix]

nah, its just a GS BUT! i replaced the engine about 20000mi ago with an Atkins rotary streetport 12a, 2 1/2in stainless exhaust, no cat, opemed up intake, msd coils... it really would benefit from a gs-l rear end and 14 or 15 inch wheels... but as is its about 20hp up from stock(120 now), 20% which is a shitload seat of your pants boost in such a small light car... even with the live rear axle it handles like a dream, real predictable transition from slight understeer to dragging yer ass oversteer all governed by the artistry of your right foot. its having some low rpm hesitation of late, after i redid the exhaust again... may need emissions gone throu or just removed for track use.

wheni get out there im gonna HAVE to get a 70 alfa spider or another gtv6(check em out if you havent, best vintage autocrosser youll find bone stock) for that hwy17 between sJose and sCruz... youll have to take a day to show me some good runs, i know theres no better road in the US.

ill ring ya when i have my arrival date nailed down... gonna do some kinda 'hey im in cali now' housewarming ish party probably so ill def let your lady friend know... gonna be a fantastic summer methinks...

I was clocking a GTV in 04 but he did have a beautiful car, nice guy. I like Alphas, I like German cars better...

Car sounds like fun - again, this is a Mazda hot bed, home of Ground Control and many other Mazda aftermarkets. The Pick-n-Pull (http://Picknpull.com) is your local CA parts source!! Brush up on your spanish, work on your tan and you might even get the "esse discount." Or you could just stash everything in a doorpanel like we do and get anything that fits for $35.00.. LSD probably wouldn't fit but ya never know :D I've hauled door panels out with two people before..

Lemme know when you're here and I'll have a helmet on your head and a big fucking grin on your face before you can say "SFR"

I average triple digits on 17 in a proper vehicle, easy on R-compounds, I know where the cops sit, the bbq is always open for duty and the beach is three blocks away. We're waiting.. :)

[Thanat0s]

fuckin A.




!

[jopiated]

Yeah, it will be alot to endure, you are definetely right about that. Somebody else said the saturation rate of methadone being so high and I know this is true as well. That's why I am trying to switch, before it is to late. Otherwise I will end up being one of those lifers. It is already tough to wait longer than normal to dose. I believe this saturation rate is what caused me all the problems before, especially the sweating. I am going to tell my doctor that I really need to go to a super short acting opiate for atleast 2 weeks before switching. I really need to do what I can to make this work, I know it is what's best. Thanks everybody for your input and all your help, it is appreciated.

[trainwrecker]

I should add my experience with the big switch because it just goes to show that it will vary from person to person.

I was on 80mg of done daily, but the thing was I only came in three times a week and would generally drink all my carries at once and just 'white knuckle' it on the off days, or cop a piece of tar.

So I drank my last 210mg or so and hopped on the greyhound. Road from Seattle to Detroit, almost a 4 day trip and by the end I was in fairly serious WD. The next day I started bupe and felt a million times better, no precip WD at all. So it was nearly 5 days off a high ass does of methadone and made the switch with no prob.

And just an additional note, getting off methadone and on to bupe was the best thing that I have ever done in my whole junk career...

[jopiated]

T.W. Did you start on subutex or suboxone? How long were you on done for? So you were actually on 80 mg. a day but would just take it all=240 mg. and did this hold you til your next dose? Wow!! Well, thanks for the input man, I will definetely be thinking about that. Last time I actually went off my done for 4 days before switching and still had all kinds of problems, I think I am sensitive to naloxene so I am trying subutex this time.