for those that take subs, methadone etc

[clinton]

in your opinions do you wish that you hadn't started taking methadone or suboxone as a means to quit using?
would you have preferred cold turkey or continued using your d.o.c. instead?

[Nate]

Slow and gradual tapers have been the easiest for me.

[Ludakris]

Slow and gradual tapers have been the easiest for me.


I agree, tapering seems to be the easiest way for me...taper in the day, weed at night...I think it's just the self control aspect, having my DOC in hand and trying to taper instead of get high...

[sidman]

Since I have been addicted to opiates in their various forms,shapes and analogs for over ten years now,
I know how frustrating it can be to want to "quit" opiates and ultimately, fail.
For myself,the #1 reason I usually fail is because I love the "High" opiates give me and I seem to forget the downsides of using (abusing!) them until AFTER they become a problem (again!).
So, I didn't want to go on Sub's but my doc told me I should at least try them out.
I was sick of spending all my $$ on dope so I said,"what the hell,why not?!" and since they are covered by my insurance,I don't pay a cent for them.
Now I almost always have at least a few bucks in my pocket and I don't crave other opiates at all anymore.
I can take the subs however I want and sometimes I can purposely hold off on taking them for a few days so that I can actually enjoy them again.
The first time I took them,I got high as hell!
Sometimes I will split some with a few freinds, and they crush it up and snort it.
I've had quite a few of them tell me they like them alot.
I sell a few here and there for some extra $$ if I want.
I find that there are almost NO withdrawals from them at all and to me its a miracle drug!
I think subs are the best way to go for sure.
One thing that can suck about subs though, is that if I want to enjoy "other" opiates for a day or two, then I have to hold off on the subs for at least 48 hours or I won't feel a thing from other opiates.
Subs are good for me because I can always have them to fall back on and I can take them with me where ever I go, as long as they are in the prescription bottle and I have my I.D. on me,the cops can't do a thing about it,unless they see me give some to somebody (which they won't!)
A regular life saver!

[Opiyum]

I don't see subs as a way of quiting opiates to be honest. I see them as a legal alternative to other illegal opiates. Same with methadone.

When it comes to detox from oxy, heroin, methadone, buprenorphine, dilaudid or pods
I do what I can with OTC meds and herbs and never try to detox unless I have a good bit of weed and a whole shitload of benzo's and melatonin.

Cold turkey is never an option for any opiate for me.

For me suboxone is the easiest and most logical way to maintain myself on opiates. I have found it very easy to switch to my DOC in the past but now I hope to end that for the year. Hopefully.

Someday I hope to be off suboxone and become a chipper using only pod and seed tea occasionally and once or twice a year cultivating my own opium from a crop I have yet to grow. To do this I would have to stay away from all street and pharmcuetical drugs.
Tapering off of any full agonist or anything that resembles my DOC would be impossible. No doubt about it. I don't have the will power.


SO because of all this I can't really vote for any of these options because none of them work for me.

[SpecialGuy69]

I have never taken a taper all the way down to 0 for more than a day or 2, but for me, methadone and subutex are equal in terms of ease of tapering. They are both about the same difficulty to taper down on.

Subs are a little easier on the willpower end
Methadone is a lot more comfortable mentally (especially knowing that if I really have a bad day, or a lot of pain, I can take more and feel good) and that makes it my taper of choice.

DOC taper is much more difficult (even tho its less painful) because I dont have the willpower, and no one I trust to dispense my meds to me

I've never had a very hard time getting down to miniscule levels on methadone or subs. I used to routinely get down to .5mg of sub a day, and now I can get to 10mg/day of methadone in less than 10 days.

[sexualhealing]

while i would have LOVED to live out my life banging dope everyday, and prolly would if i could legally, i find that the suboxone has really saved my life....

i still have the occasional...well more recently often, shot of h or oxy or speedball....but with the subs i can switch back and forth without gettin sick and missing work and such....its lead to a more stable life....

no more tweakin out if i cant cop.....no more worryin about the things i had to do to support a habit as large as mine was (1-2 buns a day at the end, good east coast powder), then just straight grams of banging east coast brown....nice chunks....was doin half gram shots, lol....would pass out for a few hours , wake up and do it agian....i prob would be dead.....


so ya the suboxone is def as major help for me and i would never change my decision to get on....i just would advise one from using insurance if at all possible, its expensive, but im not trying to get labeld a drug seeker my whole life, ya kno?

[OxyContinuously]

in your opinions do you wish that you hadn't started taking methadone or suboxone as a means to quit using?
would you have preferred cold turkey or continued using your d.o.c. instead?

I tell you what, Clinton: I mentioned maybe a couple mos. ago (at best) that I had chosen the Suboxone route as my way to taper off of opiates (specifically snorted heroin, and snorted OC 80's; i don't inject anything so perhaps my addcition is not AS severe as someone who shoots, but it's no "walk in the park.";-)

honestly, i found with suboxone that 8mg twice a day is clearly an order of magnitude too much (at least for my habit, which quite frankly consisted of either 4 stamps, or 3 80's in a day, broken up into bags, or for the case of OC, hits of 40-60mg)

my doctor barely listened to what i had to say and she was all to quick to give me 16mg...As i was telling Roxi* and a couple other folks here, 8mg is way too much especially twice a day..i found that 4mg twice a day was MORE than enough, but whatever-- let the doc overprescribe, this way i have a stockpile of the damn tabs!!

i have found, like many others here that buprenorphine creates a habit that can be just as much as a bastard to kick...reason being is bupe's disgustingly long half-life; while the WD's are not as *severe* as H or OC, they just seem to last and last. And last. That's where I ran into problems. GOing from around 2mg per day to 0mg was quite a hardship for me. there's a lot doctors that do not know about bupe just yet in terms of it's effects (it's not studied as widely as morphine for example), so in essence we (recovering opiate addicts) are the guinea pigs...it's all trial and error u know? As far as cold turkey, I'm no pussy, but CT is not an option for me; i need to go to work and to function u know so it's just impractical, plus coming off of 3 80's or 3 or 4 bags of H, while not the end of the world, is DEFinitely painful.

So to answer ur original quest, I think that not only is bupe a much more powerful opiate than both heroin and oxycodone, it is severely over-prescribed. and that leads to problems for us in the end, when we wish to make that final leap to zero; i have tried the tapering method as well with both H and OC, and honestly, yeah i think i am better off that way...i won't lie though--subs do the trick as far as ridding u of the worst of wd's (and in my case i got high as HELL off of 8mg) BUT they become another monkey on ur back that u have to kick. the way i look at it is if i am going to kick, why not taper the opiates i am using currently, rather than moving up the ladder to a STRONGER opiate and then trying to kick that, u know??

I agree, tapering seems to be the easiest way for me...taper in the day, weed at night...I think it's just the self control aspect, having my DOC in hand and trying to taper instead of get high...

Yessir!!! I am in total and complete agreement with you regarding the ganj; weed has been a godsend in terms of allowing me to sleep, and taking the "edge" off the worst WD's

(especially that RLS bullshit, weed calmed my legs down considerably and also made me hungry which is a plus, cause i dunno about u, but when i kick, i can barely eat, and i know that's bad, so the weed at least allowed me to get some much need nourishment.)

I don't see subs as a way of quiting opiates to be honest. I see them as a legal alternative to other illegal opiates. Same with methadone.

Definitely, Opiyum.

I agree with you, that is exactly how I see it. I mean, sure Subs or methadone relieve the WD's and craving (to some extent) but the way i see it is that you are creating more of a problem, because both bupe and methadone are DAMN powerful and kicking them is NO picnic...

So in essence, like you said, u are merely treating opiate addiction with another opiate-- so u are still addicted, and in many cases, the habit created from ur treatment (especially in the case of methadone, which i hear is a BITCH to kick) is larger sometimes than ur original habit with your D.O.C., whatever that may be...

(and also Opiyum, as I was saying above, Cold Turkey is not an option 4 me!! ;-)


later guys, this was a good thread, got me thinking and the cogs turning, so to speak..

peace

OxY

[Black_Pony]

Very true. I voted subs, but then again Ive never kicked subs. Im maintaining on 2mg/day which is hard as hell.

[zenpunk]

Subs made kicking bearable, painful but bearable. Its a long hard ride no matter what you do.

[Ludakris]

<snip>

Yessir!!! I am in total and complete agreement with you regarding the ganj; weed has been a godsend in terms of allowing me to sleep, and taking the "edge" off the worst WD's

(especially that RLS bullshit, weed calmed my legs down considerably and also made me hungry which is a plus, cause i dunno about u, but when i kick, i can barely eat, and i know that's bad, so the weed at least allowed me to get some much need nourishment.)

<snip>



Sounds like this thread really hit home with you Oxy. I've always found that the reefer is a god send for all kinds of stuff, it seems to help with a lot of aspects with minimal side effects. The only time I've had a hard time smoking weed was when I was having some kind of fucked up WD's from Ambien, smoking weed just made me paranoid as fuck and gave me the worst anxiety I ever had. I would sit in a corner and just want the high to be over, and then I'd be so mad that I was never going to enjoy weed again, but then after about a week without ambien the reefer high was back and in tact :D

Personally, I've only used Subs one time and that was to help me I moved from NM to WA, I had a really cool doctor who had me on 120 Percocet 7.5/500 a month for pain control, which was perfect for what I needed. But I moved and got a hold of 3 8mg suboxone and was able to taper and handle until I got set up with a doc here (who dropped me to 60 Hyro 7.5/750, then 60 5/500, and now 60 Tramadol :mad:) Anyways, I found that taking 1-2mg when I started WD's did me just fine and managed to keep the pain eased better than say, Tylenol, lucky my pain gauge varies from day to day...but I digress

I currently have a good friend of mine who just got into a Sub program (he's currently taking 32mg/day of suboxone, this is his first week) I'm not real sure what his daily habit was, but I know it was at least 160mg/oxy's a day (percocet none the less, imagine all that APAP). Anyhow, he's been curious about what to expect with the subs, and I find these first hand reports to be helping him out some. Although he's had a "problem" for about 5 years now, he's still extremely uneducated about opi's. Hell, he didn't even know what a potentiator was before I gave him a quick and dirty run down on some info.
Why he doesn't get on this board is beyond me, but he emails me everyday asking me one question or another and posts like this are exactly the thing that helps curb his anxiety about subs and kicking. His doc has him on a 1 year program, but he's hoping to get it done in 6 months...

Well then, it seems as though I have incessantly rambled on and on and on...I think my hands type and my brain goes in lala land.

[Duckfeet]

I agreed w/just about everything on here, Oxy....I mean, I was pretty excited when I first did subs, as I *so* wanted off of methadone, and I had managed to get down to 30mg daily of 'mdone, and had money in those days, so I paid a clinic who flew me out to W.Palm, and gave me oxys for a week, and then 24hrs, then hopped to subs, and it was painless, and worked great, and I dropped fairly quckly from 12-16mg (I don't really remember how much: something like that), and within a few weeks was down to 2mg, and then 1mg for a few days, and then jumped...

I couldn't hang in w/the jump...after a few days, I couldn't take it anymore, and an online pal took mercy on me, and helped me cop some H, or I'd have gone back on methadone...and I preferred H, to be honest, even having to plug the dreaded tar out here, was better....

But after a while, most of my my money was gone, and since my veins are shot, it was taking a gram of tar plugged every day...which was cool w/the solidarity I found w/other pluggings bros and sisses on here...but still: this last year and a half, has been a constant struggle, always trying to get off one of those three: subs, mdone, tar...on and on...

And I've been at this a *long* fucking time, and it was during this time period I also flew up to Vancouver, trying to get on the NAOMI heroin maintenance program, but got turned away at Vancouver airport: turned around and put on plane back to San Diego, since I had felonies, and they had me on database...

Right now, I'm down to 35mg mdone, but I've been plugging tar again...so I don't know what the fuck I'll do...older but no wiser...I spit out my dose today, so I only did tar, and didn't want to be nodding out at my noon AA meeting LOL...but anyway, maybe I'll try getting of mdone, doing tar a week, then maybe hopping back to subs I saved, see if I can get off the shit that way...what a mess this shit can turn into...but worst part of mdone or subs to me it the horrible tolerance it also brings in it's wake: I also have doc perscribing me 90Norcos and daily mdone sulfate, but the shit is useless...

oh well....



I tell you what, Clinton: I mentioned maybe a couple mos. ago (at best) that I had chosen the Suboxone route as my way to taper off of opiates (specifically snorted heroin, and snorted OC 80's; i don't inject anything so perhaps my addcition is not AS severe as someone who shoots, but it's no "walk in the park.";-)

honestly, i found with suboxone that 8mg twice a day is clearly an order of magnitude too much (at least for my habit, which quite frankly consisted of either 4 stamps, or 3 80's in a day, broken up into bags, or for the case of OC, hits of 40-60mg)

my doctor barely listened to what i had to say and she was all to quick to give me 16mg...As i was telling Roxi* and a couple other folks here, 8mg is way too much especially twice a day..i found that 4mg twice a day was MORE than enough, but whatever-- let the doc overprescribe, this way i have a stockpile of the damn tabs!!

i have found, like many others here that buprenorphine creates a habit that can be just as much as a bastard to kick...reason being is bupe's disgustingly long half-life; while the WD's are not as *severe* as H or OC, they just seem to last and last. And last. That's where I ran into problems. GOing from around 2mg per day to 0mg was quite a hardship for me. there's a lot doctors that do not know about bupe just yet in terms of it's effects (it's not studied as widely as morphine for example), so in essence we (recovering opiate addicts) are the guinea pigs...it's all trial and error u know? As far as cold turkey, I'm no pussy, but CT is not an option for me; i need to go to work and to function u know so it's just impractical, plus coming off of 3 80's or 3 or 4 bags of H, while not the end of the world, is DEFinitely painful.

So to answer ur original quest, I think that not only is bupe a much more powerful opiate than both heroin and oxycodone, it is severely over-prescribed. and that leads to problems for us in the end, when we wish to make that final leap to zero; i have tried the tapering method as well with both H and OC, and honestly, yeah i think i am better off that way...i won't lie though--subs do the trick as far as ridding u of the worst of wd's (and in my case i got high as HELL off of 8mg) BUT they become another monkey on ur back that u have to kick. the way i look at it is if i am going to kick, why not taper the opiates i am using currently, rather than moving up the ladder to a STRONGER opiate and then trying to kick that, u know??



Yessir!!! I am in total and complete agreement with you regarding the ganj; weed has been a godsend in terms of allowing me to sleep, and taking the "edge" off the worst WD's

(especially that RLS bullshit, weed calmed my legs down considerably and also made me hungry which is a plus, cause i dunno about u, but when i kick, i can barely eat, and i know that's bad, so the weed at least allowed me to get some much need nourishment.)



Definitely, Opiyum.

I agree with you, that is exactly how I see it. I mean, sure Subs or methadone relieve the WD's and craving (to some extent) but the way i see it is that you are creating more of a problem, because both bupe and methadone are DAMN powerful and kicking them is NO picnic...

So in essence, like you said, u are merely treating opiate addiction with another opiate-- so u are still addicted, and in many cases, the habit created from ur treatment (especially in the case of methadone, which i hear is a BITCH to kick) is larger sometimes than ur original habit with your D.O.C., whatever that may be...

(and also Opiyum, as I was saying above, Cold Turkey is not an option 4 me!! ;-)


later guys, this was a good thread, got me thinking and the cogs turning, so to speak..

peace

OxY

[Thanat0s]

well, voted for subs but honestly, ive never been able to actually get off of opiates... the only reasonable and feasible way in my opinion is to taper your DOC to nothing then jump cold. a variation im attempting now is to jump from H to subs, taper subs(staying on no more than a month or two total) then taper with TINY amounts of DOC...

SO much easier said then done but this method may help avoid some of the drawn out PAWS of subs...




btw, im shocked that wanker 12 step groupie hasnt chimed in to advocate subs as if they arent an opiate, simply a 'medication for his 'disease''

oh, me, im sober, i just take this medication, diacetlymorphine for my 'disease...' WAY less side effects than bupe!
[insert phrase indicating sarcasm, oh... about here]

[Thanat0s]

oh, and dont forget the weed for a plethora of symptoms... helps keep those pesky AA meetings away too...

[candyshop]

the subs work wonderfully for me but i have never even attempted to get down to zero-
i agree with those that said subs are simply a legal way to ride a habit-

i find it super easy to switch off to my D.O.C. and back


i have finally come to the point where i can admit to myself that i am in for life-with no intent of ever seeking total cleanliness

i am fairly content with maintainence doses of subs or D.O.C.
(-not shooting for bombed-out ass-over-teakettle high,just enough to keep me whistling)

without some form of opi in me -the pain and depression slay me

subs have given me some( not complete ,i am not fooling myself entirely) control over my habit ,
allowing me to make choices again-without the horrible specter of sickness hanging over my head, i am able
to make decisions about my life,my finances,travel,--- freedoms that were lost to me for years-

--i know the jury is still out on some of of the long term issues with bupe,i know they do not work perfectly,and i know that everyone can not expect the same results---

i truly believe that my life has been saved-
i had been reduced to the near animal state of having a single priority,a constant imperative ,that came before all other things in my life

-having options again is amazing-

many people feel the same about methadone

anything that can ease our pain,expand our options, and keep us out of jail is a useful tool against suffering until the madness of prohibition ends-



f spellcheck in the a

[OxyContinuously]

<snip>anything that can ease our pain,expand our options, and keep us out of jail is a useful tool against suffering until the madness of prohibition ends-</snip>

amen to that, CS. and it's good 2 see you; haven't seen u around in a minute!


OxY

[RobOC]

I picked subs because as of now they are the only option that has ever got me to stay off off full agonist opiates for any extended period of time. Tapering is simply not an option for me if I have dope I have to get high, and to be honest methadone programs almost seem to hold some people hostage (no offense to those of you on methadone, everyone works differently).

Another thing that the subs, I am on subutex, seems to do for me is just keep me mellowed out. About a year ago I checked into detox and did it cold turkey. When I got out I stayed away from opiates for a good three months but I turned into an absolute alcoholic! I don't know if it is the naloxone in suboxone that does it but if I drink too much it makes me feel a little queasy, which doesn't really happen on the subutex unless I have taken my full dose, 32mg, or more.

Any ways buprenorphine has literally saved my life. I actually got to meet one of the docs that helped develop Subutex/Suboxone and shake his hand. It is just like Oxy said, bupe has given me options in my life again. Which is something that i thought I had lost long ago.

[Duckfeet]

Really good post, Candy: I wish I could see it that way, as it's kind of obvious I am in it for life, and I've had even shrinks just about weep, and say methadone maintenance was *made* for people like me, and this was over ten years ago, when I was just a kid in my forties haha...and now that bupe is arround, same thing...:I'll be alright for a while then hate the shit, and get off it, usually thru street drugs, or now, thru switching to *other* legal approved opy, but same thing always happens. I don't wish for sobriety...guess what I wish for doesn't even matter, as it's not going to happen in my lifetime...just amazing I've lasted this long....but I've had a couple bouts w/sobriety, and was reasonably happy, after I got used to it, but both times fell by the wayside when good dope was available, and it's kind of a bitch, as I always have typical probalems w/long lasting opys like mdone and subs...



the subs work wonderfully for me but i have never even attempted to get down to zero-
i agree with those that said subs are simply a legal way to ride a habit-

i find it super easy to switch off to my D.O.C. and back


i have finally come to the point where i can admit to myself that i am in for life-with no intent of ever seeking total cleanliness

i am fairly content with maintainence doses of subs or D.O.C.
(-not shooting for bombed-out ass-over-teakettle high,just enough to keep me whistling)

without some form of opi in me -the pain and depression slay me

subs have given me some( not complete ,i am not fooling myself entirely) control over my habit ,
allowing me to make choices again-without the horrible specter of sickness hanging over my head, i am able
to make decisions about my life,my finances,travel,--- freedoms that were lost to me for years-

--i know the jury is still out on some of of the long term issues with bupe,i know they do not work perfectly,and i know that everyone can not expect the same results---

i truly believe that my life has been saved-
i had been reduced to the near animal state of having a single priority,a constant imperative ,that came before all other things in my life

-having options again is amazing-

many people feel the same about methadone

anything that can ease our pain,expand our options, and keep us out of jail is a useful tool against suffering until the madness of prohibition ends-



f spellcheck in the a

[Thanat0s]

you know, ive encountered sobriety a time or two since my mid teens... thing is i NEVER felt right, since about age 14, discovered drugs around age 16. i can honestly say that since 14 i have only felt right with the world with something in my system... family and friends even seem to get on with me better if im a little 'enhanced.' too much and of course they can tell and its all downhill but im starting to think there may be something to this EDS thing... obviously im no good if im blasted all the time but the other side of the coin is that in just as down and out if im 100% clean and sober...

why oh why cant i have a legal steady full agonist dose for the rest of my life? ive been very stable for very long periods of time on as little as .1gm a day heroin... whats the big deal? i cant even really see the negatives aside from those imosed by prohibition.

the bupe does i guess help but i DO enjoy a high every so often and with the way treatment and social issues go even one or two uses off bupe and that whole guilt shame etc bullshit spirals down and i catch a habit. since ive begun to understand this and shift my attitude ive been capable of maintianing and being a model citizen.

never really gave methadone a full shot, maybe thats for me rather than bupe... i must say the daily dosing at a clinic, constant drug tests and harrassment for marijuana or auxiallary opiate use, and general dick attitude of most clinics has warned me off of methadone. maybe ill give it a try once i get out to san rafael? maybe out west i wnt have to pay 40.00 for .2 or effing tar and can afford a theraptic dose habit...

maybe i just need to quit and be miserable and out of place the rest of my life like a good fucking boy/dog.

[Black_Pony]

The WORST you'll do is $20 for 0.2 g of tar. (More likely closer to $10) And in San Rafael, you'll be PLENTY close to the action.

[bigNasty]

I agree, tapering seems to be the easiest way for me...taper in the day, weed at night...I think it's just the self control aspect, having my DOC in hand and trying to taper instead of get high...
This is the reason I picked subs. I have no temptation to raise my dose or try to get high with subs. I take my 2mg's in the morning and don't think about it again the rest of the day.

While, on the other hand, if 40mg's of OC gets me high and I have an 80. I'd use the 80 to get high twice a day and not have any left the next morning, instead of doing 30mg's twice one day and having 20mg's left for the next morning

[duck]

This is a really, really great thread. Thank you all for contributing and please continue, this has sticky potential.

Once again, thanks to all the OG's who share their stories and philosophies with us. It really is a priceless asset that us young, [relatively] naive users have. There is nothing else like it; to have someone tell you what the road ahead is like, without the subjective, condemning shackles that opiate based advice typically carries.

[SHELLEY]

methadone saved my child's life
and i never would have been able to stop without it
that said, i can't fucking WAIT to be done with the stupid shit!!!!

[StinkyPickle]

I chose cold turkey. It's not really by choice, it's always what happens, though. My pain dictates how much I take every day, and when I'm trying to stop for a bit, my WD symptoms then dictate how much I take. I always plan on a taper, but when it comes time, I just say fuck it and dose like I normally do. I then have to take whatever I have left and make it stretch for a day. After that I have nothing, and am forced to go CT.

[StinkyPickle]

methadone saved my child's life
and i never would have been able to stop without it
that said, i can't fucking WAIT to be done with the stupid shit!!!!


How do you think it will be for the baby when you start weening, or do you have a plan for that already? I remember you saying if you go lower than 10mg of done she starts freaking out. I know you'll still be mixing breastmilk with the solid food when you start giving it to her, but it will be substantially less than a feeding of just breatsmilk. Would you have to up your dose of done to make up for it? Just curious, sorry to de-rail a good thread, feel free to PM me

[limitless_euphoria]

Actually I think would be a combination of tapering down your DOC to the point where you're hardly taking it then switching off to subs. That's worked for me although when I know I'm quitting I always feel the need to go out with a BANG!

[SHELLEY]

How do you think it will be for the baby when you start weening, or do you have a plan for that already? I remember you saying if you go lower than 10mg of done she starts freaking out. I know you'll still be mixing breastmilk with the solid food when you start giving it to her, but it will be substantially less than a feeding of just breatsmilk. Would you have to up your dose of done to make up for it? Just curious, sorry to de-rail a good thread, feel free to PM me

i am down to 2mg every other day
tommorrow i skip, then i try 1mg
i hope to be totally off before march 1
because then the price goes up seven bux per week :(

[oxy kid]

Well I thought that subs would be the best method but I went and shot myself in the foot. Now I can't get off the subs. I've tapered down to be able to manage on 4mgs or so a day, but its tough to get off these things.

[pizzaboy]

Subs seem to be working now, but in the past I've tried all the listed methods with varying degrees of success. I think my real attraction to subs is their low cost...a tiny little bit lasts me all day.

Wife and I figured that while on subs we spend more per day on soda than subs.