Suboxone/Methadone Expectations

[Dryseeker]

I have a question that Im hoping somebody has some insight on; Im coming to the end of a 3 year OC run that has gotton completely out of control. What was once a 20mg habit on Friday & Saturday nights has turned into a 4-500MG daily monster addiction. I run out of my script a few days early; this month it looks like I will be out 10 days early. As I know what awaits my (the past week I have been doing 500MG daily) I have made an appointment with a Sub doctor and also looked into a methadone clinic. While I hate what OC has become to me Im also terrified of letting go; some delusional part of my brain still thinks I can control it.
I figure if I go the sub route my pain clinic will find out which will cause me to be booted plus I will then be labled as a drug addict. Im also concerned if the sub will "cut it" so to speak. How effective is it in helping you deal with the mental cravings? I have done plenty of Methadone so I know it will control the physical side however mentally I still found myself fairly depressed while on it. I realize I dont have a lot of options, being a "true" addict sucks so bad; allls I find myself doing anymore is chasing a euphoria that cannot be found and building a tolerance/dependency that is going to send me straight to hell.
I hope the meth or sub (still havent decided which route to take-if its the Sub my initial appt is Monday-Wednesday is the 1st chance to be admmitted to a done' clinic) will at least allow me to go to work and maintain somewhat of a normal life. Im afraid of getting addicted to Methadone as I know withdrawal is horrible. It sucks to be in the position Im in however all along I knew this

[Suboxstitute]

I'm on sub, have been since Aug 07. Can't give lots of advice on methadone other than what I've researched, read, and talked to people (who've been on it).

Read the sticky here on the site about sub. Lots of good info there.

Personally? I would go the sub route since it's easier to dose (don't have to go into a clinic each day, etc.) and IMO it WOULD help you at your level of tolerance. Be honest with the doctor/counselor/whoever.

It would help if you could taper down a bit first, but that may not be possible since you're running out.

The first few days - week you will need a pretty high dose - the "ceiling" is 32mg after which you get no add'l benefit.

I started at 24mg, which I probably didn't need. You don't have to be in severe w/ds (mild to moderate, and there is a scale - the COWS scale - that will help).

So I took myself down pretty quick. Now I am on 6-8m daily.

So try to get down as soon as you can, stay on that dose for a while, see how you feel, and then think about tapering. The last 2mg and down you have to do real, real slow. But it can be done. It's a unique drug, that's for sure.

The other advice is to NOT try and go back and forth between your DOC and the sub. It'll work once or twice, but then it won't, and your tolerance will have likely gone UP.

I'll think of some more stuff, and check out the naabt.org board for the positive side and heroin-detox or similar for the other side.... You'll get the extremes: "great" and "stay the hell away". And remember - read the sticky here on opiophile.

I know personally several people who successfully tapered off bupe (sub) while I can't say I know anyone who's tapered off 'done, not that these people don't exist.

You sound like you are at a point where you don't have much of a choice but to do this - - or something.

For me, the subs take away all the cravings if I don't think about it.... and all the physicial symptoms, no problem. I miss getting high, but I wasn't getting high at the end - there weren't enough pills to get me really high. I was remembering the beginning, not the end.

[Suboxstitute]

One more thing (and I thought my other post was already too long so didn't add it there) you are treated for pain, correct?

If so, sub may not do a lot for ya there. But in my case, after two back surgeries, I was still getting scripted legitimately (I was "only" on hydro and occasionally oxy (straight up, not percocet) but I took a LOT of it) and was supplementing my scripts quite heavily. Once I went off pain meds, I didn't have the pain I though I had.

Do you have an appointment at a typical methadone clinic? Or would your doctor consider treating you with methadone for pain? That could be an option.

With sub, you don't really get a tolerance and need to take more.... there is no point to taking more. Most people want to take less (they'll experiment at first, etc. but more-more-more won't do anything for most).

Sub blocks other opiates pretty damn completely..... if you wanted to get high you'd have a good five day wait to think about it, since the half life is so long. Of course, everyone's different but I tried it at the beginning, and even after 3-4 days, I wasn't feeling other drugs at all. Wasted time and money!

[mikells43]

suboxone is a great medicine. methadone still has its uses too. but the prob is the choice. me personally i have exausted all other options and had to go on sub or bupe. i take subutex. and as far as controlling the cravings, thats not all done by a pill. its mostly done by u. when it comes down to it, the next drug is a choice. its that monkey on our back that makes us go the other way sometimes. i have been on bupe for 17 going on 18 months. the first 5 months or so was rough. taming that feeling to take something when im feeling antzy. thats a tough thing to beat. but its beatable. if i were you, i would go on bupe. i am a suboxone, bupe, subutex whatever u wannna call it, advocate. and i do kno people who have successfully tapered off of it too with little to no pain. in the end its all ur choice. weather to do it the old school way, do it with bupe. or do it with methadone. the benifits of bupe over methadone are u dont have to go daily to get ur does. once you are stable on a dose, after aperiod of time u decreas instead of increase . u dont build up a tolerence to bupe so like i said before u dont have to keep increasing to get well. most docs let u go monthly to get ur script. if i were u i would try bupe first. cause methadone is painful to detox off of, tho if u jump off bupe at a higher dose it can be just as painful. i am able to function normally daily on bupe. i just feel normal. no high, no euprhoira, just normalicy and i like that.

I also agree with suboxxistute. alot of the pain that people experence on opiate therepy is not there once u get off of them. some people are just "in pain" to get opiates , thats how i was. but once u get the shit out of u, then u will be able to tell. i had such bad pain when attending pain clinics. today that i am on bupe i hav eno pain. and i dont need to medicate it. i was getting the opiates for pain, but using them to get high. but u might notice a decline in pain, once ur not living from script to script..

also u have to change ur actions, behaviors, friends, and whatever u want to change to get that old life to be a memory instead of a present thing. doing that is going to be painful but the most growth comes from the things that are painful to move forward from. if u want more info about bupe u can pm me , i also practice or try to practice a 12 step prog in 'my life cause it just helps me deal with the wreckage i left behind without a shitload of guilt . but thats up to u. what works for me might not u. but ur not alone in whatever route u choose, remember that!

[Dryseeker]

Thanks for your advice, very much appreciated. I do get scripts for back pain however I know I could get by MOST of the time. I still periodically do have very bad pain however by laying in bed and taking it easy it will usually become bearable; sometimes Im forced to get epideral injections. My OC addiction has become far more of an issue as I feel like Im slowly killing myself; sometimes I wonder why I continue to take such huge amounts as I havent gotten high in a long time-even off 210mg at once.

Based on what your advise and my own experiences with 'done I will probably go the sub route as I really just dont care for 'done on any level. The biggest challenge for me as Im starting sub next week will be getting the resolve not to go to my Pain mgmt appt the following week for a new bottle of OC. That will be the true test. I do think I have finally had it though, I just need something that allows me to function until I can hopefully regain some level of control over my addiction.

Thanks Again for your advise, I think I see a very faint light the end of the very dark tunnel I have been in.

[Suboxstitute]

Thanks for your advice, very much appreciated. I do get scripts for back pain however I know I could get by MOST of the time. I still periodically do have very bad pain however by laying in bed and taking it easy it will usually become bearable; sometimes Im forced to get epideral injections. My OC addiction has become far more of an issue as I feel like Im slowly killing myself; sometimes I wonder why I continue to take such huge amounts as I havent gotten high in a long time-even off 210mg at once.

Based on what your advise and my own experiences with 'done I will probably go the sub route as I really just dont care for 'done on any level. The biggest challenge for me as Im starting sub next week will be getting the resolve not to go to my Pain mgmt appt the following week for a new bottle of OC. That will be the true test. I do think I have finally had it though, I just need something that allows me to function until I can hopefully regain some level of control over my addiction.

Thanks Again for your advise, I think I see a very faint light the end of the very dark tunnel I have been in.


I know exactly how you feel. It can't hurt to try, can it? Keep the sub appointment and see how you feel on it. You may be surprised...... Although I can't say I am ALWAYS happy to be on bupe (now mainly because I need to have surgery this year, and it's a bitch to get proper pain management when you're flagged in the system).

So even though the "rules" say "tell all your doctors about your addiction" DO NOT DO THAT. Unless it is life or death - - make sure a loved one knows you are on it, and has the info on sub (you can print out good stuff fro naabt.org). .

If I could do it over, I'd go to a sub doctor OUTSIDE of my HMO. and outside of my CITY. (I'm in business and know a shitload of people. Would rather not run into anyone while I'm picked up the sub at the drugstore).
I am thinking more clearly than I have in many years. And I've made some amazing changes that I would not have been motivated to make if I was still taking the pills.

And best of all - I am still married. That was a big motivator for me. I almost lost a really good thing.

[mikells43]

Thanks for your advice, very much appreciated. I do get scripts for back pain however I know I could get by MOST of the time. I still periodically do have very bad pain however by laying in bed and taking it easy it will usually become bearable; sometimes Im forced to get epideral injections. My OC addiction has become far more of an issue as I feel like Im slowly killing myself; sometimes I wonder why I continue to take such huge amounts as I havent gotten high in a long time-even off 210mg at once.

Based on what your advise and my own experiences with 'done I will probably go the sub route as I really just dont care for 'done on any level. The biggest challenge for me as Im starting sub next week will be getting the resolve not to go to my Pain mgmt appt the following week for a new bottle of OC. That will be the true test. I do think I have finally had it though, I just need something that allows me to function until I can hopefully regain some level of control over my addiction.

Thanks Again for your advise, I think I see a very faint light the end of the very dark tunnel I have been in.


yea that pain u describe is prob just normal living pain. once u get better and u get some natural pain killers built up in ur brain then bam no more. and thats what alot of people suffer from they take all the opiates, and have no natrual pain killers left cause the brain stopped manufacturing them and relys on the outside source aka the oxy in ur case.

u will be surprised once u start bupe. if not, then theres allways the oxy right? im just wondering how u get buy without getting called for a pill ct. . cause places here in pa are all over u with the cts. i kno senior citizs that get called in every other month for a ct.

all u can do is give it a shot. and if u have reached that point where ur sick and tired , prehaps nows the point. i also suggest doing changes to u , cause they say that the drugs are 10% of the problem and the rest is u.

[Better off without it]

I have been on both. Right now I am on 180 mg of methadone. I didn't like suboxone, it didn't make my anxiety go away and I also still had major cravings. From what I've heard suboxone is good for people that haven't been addicted to opiates for a long time and have pretty small tolerances. Methadone is best for people that have been addicted for a long time on a large amount.
It sounds like you'd definetly fit into the methadone catergory better. If you don't feel right on methadone..still depressed, anxiety, cravings, etc then an increase would probably be beneficial.

[tui]

^^
gotta disagree. i'm the exact opposite!!
hated 'done. find sub works great for the cravings. when i was on 'done i still used on top no matter how high they hiked my dose.
i think it all depends on your chemical make-up. good luck,

t

[chopstix]

I have been on both. Right now I am on 180 mg of methadone. I didn't like suboxone, it didn't make my anxiety go away and I also still had major cravings. From what I've heard suboxone is good for people that haven't been addicted to opiates for a long time and have pretty small tolerances. Methadone is best for people that have been addicted for a long time on a large amount.
It sounds like you'd definetly fit into the methadone catergory better. If you don't feel right on methadone..still depressed, anxiety, cravings, etc then an increase would probably be beneficial.

I disagree too. Methadone is complete overkill in most cases and far too often turns people into lifers. Most people have no idea just how hard it is to get off that shit and 180mg is a monstrous dose. Methadone kills cravings because you're still completely loaded.

Bup is useful for junkies of all types, it's not as effective at killing cravings but it does keep you well and allow you to either maintain or slowly detox. I've shot dope for half my life, have the tolerance of a horse and maintain well on 8mg bup as long as I can keep the damn dealers away from my fucking courtyard..

Methadone is scary shit. I truly believe people would be better of on morphine or heroin maintenance..

[mikells43]

^^
gotta disagree. i'm the exact opposite!!
hated 'done. find sub works great for the cravings. when i was on 'done i still used on top no matter how high they hiked my dose.
i think it all depends on your chemical make-up. good luck,

t

I disagree too. Methadone is complete overkill in most cases and far too often turns people into lifers. Most people have no idea just how hard it is to get off that shit and 180mg is a monstrous dose. Methadone kills cravings because you're still completely loaded.

Bup is useful for junkies of all types, it's not as effective at killing cravings but it does keep you well and allow you to either maintain or slowly detox. I've shot dope for half my life, have the tolerance of a horse and maintain well on 8mg bup as long as I can keep the damn dealers away from my fucking courtyard..

Methadone is scary shit. I truly believe people would be better of on morphine or heroin maintenance..




agreed with both of u guys. tho bupe does get the rap of not taking cravings away. u also have to do something to aleviate your self of your own thinking too. cause if u put someone in a room thats on methadone and put dope in there too, put someone in a room thats on bupe and dope in the room too, they both are going to use prob, cause they will talk themselves into using. ur own thinking is a killer , the big part of getting well is change. like the old timers say, u can lead a horse to water but can't make him/her drink. and thats 100% true. for me to go on methadone, i would have to be told i have limited time to live. cause alot of the people i kno on methadone live for one thing, and thats that next dose the next am... tho there are people who are on it and live good lives, but alot of people hate it after they level out. for the person who has tried bupe and failed and tried everything else then yes methadone could and prob would and does benifit them. it still has its uses...

[Dryseeker]

Thanks for all f your responses, I truly appreciate it. I have done a fair amount of 'done and am not particularly fond of it; it was great for getting thru till my next script as even when I was doing over 300mg of OC daily 30mg of it would keep me completely withdrawal free. That being said I just hate the idea of being forced to go to a clinic everyday plus I find meth a little creepy for some reason. I have decided to go the Sub route and really hope it works for me given the price of getting started. Its got to be better than where Im at with OC; I dont anticipate the change to Sub to be particularly pleasant though.

Another concern I have is other Doctors knowing about my sub useage, even though my back hasnt warrented the amount of OC I take it still has the potential to go out and put me in a world of hurt. I hope to fly under the radar and not have this on my medical records so Im not going to use insurance for the appt or the sub scripts. Its going to be a very expensive week for me.................

[Suboxstitute]

Well, as far as expense: if you were supplementing your script at all, there's some savings there.

And it's only right at first that it'll be the most $$$; if the doctor is cool, you may end up only going in every other month. And let them know you're self pay (my place gives 10% off for that but I don't know if it applies if you have insurance but choose not to use it or if it is just for people with no insurance altogether).

If they want you to do intense counseling (they really wanted me to do intensive outpatient for a month 4-5 hours A NIGHT except weekends. ARGGH) let them know you have a "supportive, non-drug using community of support at home" or wherever. That was how I got out of the intensive outpatient.

They might want you to work or (say you're working) a recovery program and that you know sub is a "only a tool" to help. SO, play that game, say you're going to NA, you know sub is a tool, etc. if it saves you from seeing one of their counselors or seeing the doctor for extra therapy it's worth it if you can't afford it (I am not saying counseling is bad - it can be great - I am just talking money-wise.

Of course, there are lots of docs who just see you for 15 minutes and write the script (after the first visit).

So - good luck tomorrow. I think it's the best move.

BYW - - - - - If you were to use insurance, and did not give specific permission to release info to other doctors , they can't do so. So if your regular doctor and pain clinic was in a DIFFERENT HMO/health care system) you could probably get away with using insurance with the other docs not knowin', but I understand you don't want to take a chance.

You probably know this (DUH) but USE A DIFFERENT PHARMACY FOR YOUR SUB SCRIPT. I use one close to my sub doc's office ....he recommended it in fact, since many patients go there 'cause it is close and they always stock the sub.

[Dryseeker]

Thanks alot for all of your insight on this Sub; its a scary feeling knowing my OC days are coming to a close. I really hope I have the will not to go get more OC on the appt date as I really am concerned about my intake. Its hard for me to believe I let it go so out of control and am popping 17 30mg OC's daily. Even though there is no acetiminophen in it I fear the damage it has to be doing to me in some capacity not to mention the overdose possibilities if my dosage keeps climbing. I will keep posting on this process as it unfolds; Thanks again for your thoughts

[mikells43]

prehaps snorting them will help u limit ur use a lil. i kno for me snorting them makes the ocs last longer. but everyoens diff.

and u just have to be sick of using to want to quit. quitting is a whole other thing. but being truely sick of the conencquences aka dopesickness and other things help out too.

[Dryseeker]

Yeah I think Im truly there' Im so tired of getting a script and saying "It will be different this month" and then 2 weeks later finding myself having already went through way too many to make it. I plan on trying very hard, I jst need something that will keep me from being too ill to go to work and function. While I plan on still having some issues switching to Sub as long as Im not deathly ill and horribly depressed I'll be content. Thanks for your advice.........................

[mikells43]

im sure it will be smooth. for most of us it is painless. most dont even need benzos for the switch.

[Suboxstitute]

Its hard for me to believe I let it go so out of control and am popping 17 30mg OC's daily.


Yes in a way it is hard to believe but it really isn't. The stuff is ADDICTIVE with a capital "A".

That means you'll do just about anything to get more, and you're chasing the high that you remember getting at the beginning, but it isnt there anymore. It chages your brain receptors; more so in some than in others. Bupe you time you think things over more clearly.

So try the bupe, be patient, the first week might not be perfect - then again, maybe it will be. I was able to work the next day after induction (and induction was on a SUNDAY so if it had been a work day, I could have worked that day.


I know I mentioned this but check out the naabt.org communty support on the site. Yes, it's pro-bupe, but most of the REAL LIFE stuff I learned about bupe I learned there, detailed tips and stuff on dosgaes, side effects, transitioning from high doses, tapering off - someone is always offering something. The mods try to keep the drama to a low buzz...