limitations of animal testing, socio-emotional

[Thanat0s]

mods, i dont know where best to place thisquerry, please move for more response if advantageous...

so ive been given the task of writing up a brief paper for the doctor in my bupe implant study. id like some input from my fellow 'philes...

topic: Animal testing, limitations.

the spark to this topic was buprenorphone testing. Now i personally see quite a few discrepancies and limitations in the animal testing model when dealing with a medication that treats a problem as complex as opiate addiction. top on the list are the socio-emotional differences between animals and people, the 'motivations' for use(of the illicit substance), ie: the 'self awareness' humans possess concerning their drug use that animals do not, the family and friends factors, societal pressures/views, and financial issues.

of course a human choosing to use has a much more complex set of influence over a monkey in a cage with the food and the heroin button to push... while animal testing is effective when limited to the pharmacological aspect of the drug in question, it falls short obviously in many other areas.

id love any and all thoughtsyou guys could give me to explore. what issues do YOU think we face that the animal model does not address? how can it be improved? what are your thoughts on bupe treatment? both detox and maintinence? any questions im missing? i will be submitting my findings tomorrow so swift responses will be best. just anything off the top of your head, ill do the research etc.

thanks guys!

[Thanat0s]

also simple failing and successes in the program you are in, or simply musings on the medication...
this may be a bit more taxing than the 'fat chicks' or 'dear diary' thread, figured you guys would be good for some kind of input...


?

[mikells43]

i feel bupe should not be tested on animals. first off animals cannot talk and tell us how they feel. i feel nothing should be tested on animals. im a member of peta so yea im against animal testing.

also i feel bupe detox has a lower sucess rate than bupe mantence. but of course if u stay on something the chances of relapse are lower. but for us opiate addicts we face a major change of feelings and our stress is increased during paws. and we face paws too. which is just a total bitch in its own way. i am totally for matenence. it has saved my ass along with going to other progs this past 17 months.

[WarmCyanide]

i feel nothing should be tested on animals. im a member of peta so yea im against animal testing.



have you ever taken any OTC or prescription drugs in your lifetime?

do you think children with leukemia should be treated with chemotherapeutic drugs?

[Thanat0s]

perhaps i havent stated the intent clearly...
using the animal testing model as a base, what issues to we human addicts face that are not addressed by the animal model? what issues do you feel are left unaddressed by the medical community as a whole? what are the shortcomings of YOUR program/doctor/medication, etc?
in short where can the addiction medicine communityimprove in regards to medication assited recovery? how would YOU change the system? etc etc...

(didnt notice yer infraction, mike... i dont know how better to reference the thread tho... perhaps im not as PC as a junky should be? :D )

[WarmCyanide]

perhaps i havent stated the intent clearly...
using the animal testing model as a base, what issues to we human addicts face that are not addressed by the animal model? what issues do you feel are left unaddressed by the medical community as a whole? what are the shortcomings of YOUR program/doctor/medication, etc?
in short where can the addiction medicine communityimprove in regards to medication assited recovery? how would YOU change the system? etc etc...



are you referring to the safety of a medication? i think they're fairly safe. Unlike the new antidepressant debacle. As far as medication assisted recovery, i think theres been some good progress. i think the problem is that a good deal of doctors; the first one's you see for this problem, just see a drug-addict as a self-absorbed hedonist, not a person. not as someone who needs therapy.

[mikells43]

how i would change the system per say , i would put an intense eval on people who go on bupe. for instance alot of people go on bupe , and dont want to get clean. they go on it for a vacation from other opiates. once on it they bounce back on and off of it. while they are going to their appts and telling the doc everything is fine, meanwhile the doctor is full and is not accepting new patients. and there is that person taking up someones spot that could really be using that bupe to change their life. thats hwo i would change some of the bupe progs out there. some just let anyone in, which that is fine, but some people find that they dont like the lifestyle of being euprohria free. and often start using again and keep going to the doc, getting scripts, selling the bupe and using that money to buy prehaps more opiates or other drugs. thats the one loophole id close or tighten up. if ur better evaulated when u come in , the ones that arn't going to follow rules might be weeded out.

[Thanat0s]

are you referring to the safety of a medication? i think they're fairly safe. Unlike the new antidepressant debacle. As far as medication assisted recovery, i think theres been some good progress. i think the problem is that a good deal of doctors; the first one's you see for this problem, just see a drug-addict as a self-absorbed hedonist, not a person. not as someone who needs therapy.

not safety per say, more in line with the social, emotional, family, legal, moral, ethical issues... the things animals and purely clinical lab or classroom conditions cannot address. the decision for a monkey in a box to push the H button is much less complex than the the human's decision to do the same out in the real world. what accounts for this complexity? and in what sense do you feel doctors/therapists /therapy/medication miss the point as far as this is concerned?

a long topic not easily discussed i suppose and i will try to more clearly and eloquently state my querry... thats the gist of it anywho. i find the topic as a whole a bit challenging but not without merit.

[Thanat0s]

how i would change the system per say , i would put an intense eval on people who go on bupe. for instance alot of people go on bupe , and dont want to get clean. they go on it for a vacation from other opiates. once on it they bounce back on and off of it. while they are going to their appts and telling the doc everything is fine, meanwhile the doctor is full and is not accepting new patients. and there is that person taking up someones spot that could really be using that bupe to change their life. thats hwo i would change some of the bupe progs out there. some just let anyone in, which that is fine, but some people find that they dont like the lifestyle of being euprohria free. and often start using again and keep going to the doc, getting scripts, selling the bupe and using that money to buy prehaps more opiates or other drugs. thats the one loophole id close or tighten up. if ur better evaulated when u come in , the ones that arn't going to follow rules might be weeded out.

thanks mike, were getting there!
if i may pick your brain a second? how would one go about screening? what criteria determines if one is bupe 'worthy?' what specifically led YOU to bupe and how did you know(or did you know at the time) you were really READY?

what might make the monkey press the bupe lever rather than the heroin lever? or is the choice only possible with the self awareness that comes with humanity?

[WarmCyanide]

this is getting weird fast. in one sentence you're asking about emotional, moral and ethical issues that animals cannot address? enter.. psychiatry, psychology, psychopharmocology. you are correct in stating the complexity of the issue. my brain hurts.

[Thanat0s]

this is getting weird fast. in one sentence you're asking about emotional, moral and ethical issues that animals cannot address? enter.. psychiatry, psychology, psychopharmocology. you are correct in stating the complexity of the issue. my brain hurts.

issues the animal testing model cannot address. issues that the medical community is perhaps not addressing or not addressing properly/fully. an exploration of the failures of the addiction medicine community due to an overtly clinical point of view. the animal testing model is merely a simplified starting point from which to broaden the scope of the paper and define specific areas in which to develop a depth of understanding previously underexplored. yes, this would include psychiatry, psychology, psychopharmocology and a wealth of other topics.
pick your favorite and pontificate at will.

perahps i have misjudged my audience? well, its here if anyone has any input. ill post my conclusions in the stagnant backwater this thread is destined to become. :(
oh well, sorry to be a bore, seems interesting to me, was just hoping this communities experience and insight could add some avenues for my doctor and me to explore. any and all musings will be appreciated, still.

anyone?

crickets chirping?

[WarmCyanide]

i think there is no lapse in the medical community as far as addressing opiate addiction. for fuck's sake, you can be put under 'general' during w/ds right?
as far as asking the question as to what is unexplored or underexplored, do you have any ideas yourself? if your'e going to write a thesis, you must have some of your own ideas. what are your thoughts on it? maybe that will help people to elaborate or get a better sense of where youre going in this thread. use less esoteric language in hopes to attain more responses. the intent of language is to communicate, not mystify. speak on our level and you'll get less crickets. . what doctor are you 'working' with?

[Thanat0s]

Dr Pahl of Pahl Brain Associates. a neurologist/addciton med who runs a clinical trails phase testing facility. i met him after answering his 'attn opiate addicts' ad in a local paper. i am currently part of his study of the Probuphine buprenorphine implant, which i have had in my left arm for about 2 months now. As per our states requirements to receive bupe for opiate addiction i am currently attending 2 one on one counseling seesions per week with him. i suppose i get along a bit better with him than his average patient, hence he 'picks my brain' from time to time sort of as a liason between the medical and addict communities.

he is actually assisting me in getting funding for oklahoma citys first needle exchange and is looking to establish a recovery center, providing bupe, methadone, and psychotherapy in a compassionate and informed manner frankly unseen here in oklahoma. i am being used as a consultant of sorts. if i can make a difference and help provide this community with an ideal clinic i would be overjoyed.

this little paper is kinda the first step we are taking jointly and he and i both think opiophile is a great resource whos members(myself included) can help shape this clinic into something rarely seen in the recovery realm. imagine, a compassionate methadone clinic that 'gets it...'

my thoughts? excuse the disorganized nature of what follows, this is very preliminary... work in progress...
well to start with the animal testing model some shortcomings are obvious. the main discrepancies as already stated are the socio-emotional issues human beings face. just a monkey does not use because he lost his job, is facing bankruptcy etc, while effective in assessing the purely pharmacological results of buprenorphine therapy he is not capable of giving any insight as to WHY an addict chooses such treatment.
i feel, through personal observation and secondhand accounts in this locale, that such a disconnect exists when the model progresses into the clinical setting. treatment programs and doctors often have a very black and white view of our plight.
for example, the model of 'total abstinence' is fast becoming law when perhaps an attitude of harm reduction would be more applicable and do the greatest amount of good. i for one smoke marijuana in lieu of benzodiazapines to treat my anxiety disorder. i have been removed from both suboxone and methadone programs in the past year for my 'misconduct.' i have a standing RX for ativan i cannot bring myself to fill because, well, i eat one, black out, and eat em all. bad things ensue. the non benzo alternatives are frankly, for shit, so i smoke mj to deal with my sweating, teeth grinding, butterflies and to stave off panic prior to occasions i know will serve as triggers. i feel i am making the responsible choice however the medical community would generally say i am simply transferring my addiction to heroin over to mj... ?!?!
this attitude of total abstinence vs harm reduction is prevalent in most 12 step methodologies as well. and it seems obvious that the 12 step model is #1 in every single treatment i have entered into.

way off on another tack(told you this was disorganized!) there is the problem we have all faced of family members who simply do not understand addiciton. often a single slip is regarded as a leap back into full blown addiction. the addict knows this, and personally, the feeling of yet another dissapointment to my family often provides the depression and self negativity required to make the family's prediction a self fulfilling prophecy. the same follows often times with the doctor patient relationship. how many times have any of you missed an appointment or used prior to a drug test and simply discontinued treatment rather than deal with the lecture from your therapist or have hidden from the dissapointment you feel youve caused them by simply never showing up again? often these mishandlings by well meaning fmailies, friends and doctors will lead us back into full blown addiction.

does anyone else ever feel the world around you, including the doctors, responds in ways that are detrimental to your recovery?

as mikells brought up, many addicts enter treatment unwilling and not ready to actually quit. attitudes differ as to how to deal with these patients. in the spirit of harm reduction i feel any help is better than none. something i feel is left unaddressed: how do we know when we are really ready to quit? how does the medical community know? most places ive found you simply show up in early to moderate withdrawls and are deemed 'ready.' this has caused me and my loved ones countless dissapointment when full on using quickly ensues.

in terms of the effectiveness of treatment the clinic setting often provides more of a gateway to continued use rather than a safe haven for one truly trying to quit. how many rehab conversations drift into fond recollection of 'the good old days?'

why do we use, why do we quit, why do we relapse, how do we know a false start, is a false start more detrimental than no start at all?

in the theraputic environ i have often felt shuffled in and out... lke as soon as i hit the door on my way in i turn into a totally different person, the 'counseling me' who sheds his problems and gets through the session with as little difficulty as possible and i think many a time this fascade is encouraged unknowingly by the therapist who is supposed to be breaking my false reality down.

often i think the doctors scope of our problem is very flat and they like to keep it that way. i use the animal model as a base and attempt to work up from there. i get the feeling the medical community tends to add just enough complexity to 'get by' while really missing the point entirely. stripped of the socio-emotional complexities of our humanity we wind up being viewed by the clinician as a slightly more evolved cocaine test monkey and we comply, banging away at the 'therapy' button relapse after relapse, our addiction cumulatively getting worse all the time despite the fascade of momentary 'breakthroughs' and false starts toward progress...
real or imagined?

so i apologize for the lack of cohesion here, i have a lot of things swimming around and am working towards a more streamilned presentation. hopefully something i said here made some sense and can be added to. anything you take issue with please let me know and tell me why. id really like opiophile to help us build a theraputic community that is something different, something that works. something that can finally help even me perhaps?

more later maybe...

[SpecialGuy69]

perahps i have misjudged my audience? well, its here if anyone has any input. ill post my conclusions in the stagnant backwater this thread is destined to become. :(
oh well, sorry to be a bore, seems interesting to me, was just hoping this communities experience and insight could add some avenues for my doctor and me to explore. any and all musings will be appreciated, still.

anyone?

crickets chirping?Ok- First of all, I hate when people post a thread posing complex scientific questions, then make a comment like that when people aren't flooding your thread with replies. I find it a little insulting to the board as a whole. I feel like you're insinuating that your question is over the heads of the dumb junkies on this board.

For anyone to post a thoughtful reply, they are going to have to take some time to think about it and type it up. It's not answered by a brief statement made out of memory. So, give people some time before you decide you have misjudged your audience('s intelligence?). Also, it would help to narrow the focus of your question. If you want general feedback and feelings on bupe, addiction, and treatment, there is already a TON of well thought-out posts on the subject.

As far as your specific question, I don't know what the current animal testing procedure is, so I can't possibly point out shortcomings and suggestions for improvements with it. In general, I view animal testing as a necessary evil, and it must be done in the most compassionate way possible (hell, let GOR come in and tickle the lab rats every morning to brighten their otherwise shitty day).

Could you tell us how the specific animal tests you are referring to are modeled? What is the hypothesis? Could you provide a link to the grant application (for the study)? Could you post the abstract?

The button test is to simply determine if a drug has self-reinforcing qualities- if the rats/monkeys self-administer the drug under a variety of circumstances, the DEA/FDA takes this as evidence that the drug may be habit forming and they consider scheduling/warnings. There are other animal testing models to gather information on other aspects of a chemical's pharmacological profile.

Interesting questions, but you need to provide more info to get interesting answers.

Also, PM robojunkie and oxycontinously (both scientists) and ask them to post in your thread. Also levity (addiction therapist/opiate user) would probably be able to give you some great input, as he has seen this from both sides.

Good luck, and you are doing great work.
Does the doc know about opiophile?

[mikells43]

thanks mike, were getting there!
if i may pick your brain a second? how would one go about screening? what criteria determines if one is bupe 'worthy?' what specifically led YOU to bupe and how did you know(or did you know at the time) you were really READY?

what might make the monkey press the bupe lever rather than the heroin lever? or is the choice only possible with the self awareness that comes with humanity?


the criteria for a bupe screening in my mind in the perfect world that does not exist is, for one the person should have exhusted the cold turkey/rehab, and getting clean on his/her own with or without the assistance of 12 step. for me i could not stay clean on my own. paws got me. i could get by the inital detox but as soon as paws came around i was down for the count. my brain obsessing on opiates 24/7, i could not function normally due to paws and the obsession just got worse. i never made it more than 3 weeks clean without anything. allways relapsed. even before i got on bupe i was attending various 12 step meetings at 4-10 a week and still leaving and using. i could not handle life without opiates. and i was depressed if i didn't have them.

also the person should have some concenquences due to use of opiates. were talking family, legal, socal. cause concenquences show that the disease of addiction is good and set in and working its course. i raided med cabs. got caught a few times. committed robberys to a cancer pts house for opiates, got caught. continued to use. my family knew and bitched, i still used. my brother disowned me , i still used. basicaly it was get on bupe or die for me. cause i couldnt stay clean on my own even with the help of whatever 12 step prog u want to put int he blank.

when i got on bupe it was at a rehab. i snorted my last perc after getting d/c from the hospital due to a tram seizure. and left for the 3 hour drive to rehab. go tthere, got on bupe later that evening. stayed there 3 days. left cause they were discontinueing the bupe, so i got my own doc. went to him. he would only give me 8mg max per day. said fuck u went to a new doc. stayed there for 3 months. and went to my doc now. the first doc told my mom if i was to keep doing what i was doing , i was going to die in 3 months max. like u have prob read , ers were my dealers. it got to the point where i walked into my 3rd to last er and they called the cops, they knew why i was there.

id say that the eval has to consist of a good history of the pt, examining the concenquences of their addiction. weather they want to quit opiates. and for the first several months urine tests. and im not talking one every month. im talking I call u in , u pee in cup. if u no come in within 4 hours of call u gone. some docs are like that around here.

as we seen in anouther thread tonite, the dude wanted to keep his scripts and go on bupe, that would take a possible spot of someone who might really want to get well on bupe. also i might add pill counts too. its so big around the mass area i read in an article that for pill counts theres people that rent their bupe pills lol. theres really nothign thats going to prevent an addict from doing what he/she wants to do. but for some areas of this country where opiate addiction is huge, and bupe docs are minimal then there shoudl be tougher standards. theres people here who go to 3 docs a month, get subs, and sell them. at 20 a pop, that 400 a month to see those docs dont matter lol.

and once ur on bupe and have it in ur system. its wait a min of 24 hours, and by that time ive gone to whereever or called whoever and that monkey is no longer bugging me. to be truthful i have mabey 1 craving a month if that. and its more or less a passing thought. the self awareness is big with me. cause if i fuck up, its back to the starting line, and ive made it this far. i used to lie to everyone about my clean date or well date. but its not a lie now . mabey im not totally free of opiates, but im happy, i dont get high and burn myself, i can be trusted, im liked, i like myself. and i think of others usualy before i do myself. thats all i need to live a good life.