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Saint
01-12-2008, 06:46 AM
As some of you know I'm sort of wrestling with methadone. I am using it for pain (although I started using it for heroine-addiction 24 years ago). Anyway, I want off this shit and tried everything - from slow tapers to subuxone but my final conclusion is that I do need SOMETHING for my pain.. subs aren't cutting it and methadone makes me feel like I'm only 'half alive'..

So I already asked my doc about switching me to another opiate with a shorter halflife (so that a future taper would be a bit less agonizing) but she is very reluctant. She will not prescribe fentanyl 'because it's an opiate' (but she does prescribe me my methadone every month!...?).
Anyway, a possible option is ultram. She is o.k. with that.

Now, before you all start about the seizures etc, I know that and am aware of the dangers so I do not want to use over 250 mgs of tramadol a day.

I have tried tramadol once before, when I ran out of methadone. At the time I used about 20 mgs of methadone daily but due to ''border-related circumstances'' I only had 5 mgs a day left. This was in South America so I could not get my hands on any methadone and bought some tramadol.
And to my own surprise it actually worked! I think I took about 100 to 150 mgs tramadol a day and felt pretty good, almost normal again and energetic too.

So I'm considering switching from methadone to tramadol in the future - I already used the search engine which produced a few helpful threads:
http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=9008&highlight=methadone+tramadol
http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=6764&highlight=methadone+tramadol

But I still have some questions:

- I am on 50 mgs of methadone now, how much would I need to taper before it's relatively safe to make this switch? To 25 mgs of done? 10 mgs?

- What would roughly be the equivalent of 10 mgs of methadone in tramadol? Or does it differ from person to person.. Any ideas?

- Can one use tramadol as a maintenance drug?

- Are tramadol withdrawals worse than methadone-WD's, even with a very slow taper?

- Anyone out here tried this particular switch? (Nikita70: how's your husband doing now?).

I hope I've posted this in the right forum. There isn't a tramadol-forum (yet) as far as I know.

roxi*stardust
01-12-2008, 10:06 AM
At 50mg of Methadone daily, I highly doubt that Tramadol is going to do much for you, for pain or withdrawal. Just my opinion. I have taken both methadone and tramadol. I found that methadone works incredibly well for my pain, even better than the oxycodone the I am scripted. To me 20mg of methadone works better than 75mg of oxycodone. I have taken tramadol in the past both for pain and to try to keep w/d at bay. I found it to be very ineffective for both. Just my personal experience.

Saint
01-12-2008, 11:48 AM
Thanks Roxi. I'm not thinking of trying this when still on 50 mgs of methadone! I'd have to taper to 10 or 20 mgs first anyway. But as far as I've read tramadol has different effects on different people.. And since I found the effect was very good a few years ago I might give it a try in the future... it worked for WD-s as well as pain back then but I was at a low dose of methadone at the time. However, 20 mgs of methadone doesn't do much for pain in my case but I remember that 150 mgs of tramadol did..
I guess I need some more answers first.

Canis aureus
01-12-2008, 12:39 PM
Hey Saint,

I'm not going to say your plan is impossible, but I will say my honest opinion... In other words, I'm thinking that tramadol will not make it. It simply is not at the same level as methadone is in pain killing or (mu receptor agonism). It is poor in that, it has not the same opioid activity at all, as far as I know...

Edit. At least I didn't make almost anything from it (tramadol). I got much more from codeine, and it was all too weak as well (the codeine).

Saint
01-12-2008, 01:04 PM
Thanks for your honest reply. I haven't got a clue yet whether it's worth trying myself. All I remember is that I felt very good on tramadol a few years ago during a methadone taper. I was still on methadone when I took them but I was on a very low dose. Maybe I should pm Nikita (her husband tried the exact same thing).

Raz
01-12-2008, 01:16 PM
Hola , really dont wanna sound negative but tramadol did nothin for me.B4 you make the switch make sure you have the recourse to switch back to juice and if your doc is willing maybe try something else .Have you tried DF118?
I foolishly dose myself, but maybe something combined wiv your juice to give you a bit more energy will help and then you might get the right combo to get you down to minimum juice...Wishin you welll Raz

eerased
01-12-2008, 01:22 PM
But I still have some questions:

- I am on 50 mgs of methadone now, how much would I need to taper before it's relatively safe to make this switch? To 25 mgs of done? 10 mgs?

- What would roughly be the equivalent of 10 mgs of methadone in tramadol? Or does it differ from person to person.. Any ideas?

- Can one use tramadol as a maintenance drug?

- Are tramadol withdrawals worse than methadone-WD's, even with a very slow taper?

- Anyone out here tried this particular switch? (Nikita70: how's your husband doing now?).

I hope I've posted this in the right forum. There isn't a tramadol-forum (yet) as far as I know.

Again from personal experience (I did it) it worked for me.. I was on 80 mgs of methadone I was in about day 4 of no methadone and only 3 trams took away my w/ds COMPLETELY. but;
I dont know if it could be used as a maintenance. I do know that it can help you ALLOT if you want to stop on the methadone it can make the w/d almost non existent.. (in my case it did)

But to maintain on it. I just don't know. To just simply get off the methadone yes. But what would you do after?? Do you just want to take tram for pain?
Like I said I know it would help you get off methadone but after that I dont know what good it will be except that if you dont take it for any length of time the w/d is no where near as long as methadone w/d.
If I can think of anything else to help I'll add it. If you can think of anything else I might be able to answer for you I'll try my best.. Methadone is frustrating. It's like having a ball and chain hooked to you because the w/d is soooo bad. But in some folks it has saved there lives. I know when I was on it I had no desire to use other opys but if I wanted to go anywhere or couldnt get to the clinic for a couple of days it was HELL. Thats why I quit it in the first place.

I just wanted to ad that none of my drug use was for actual pain so I dont know about it helping in pain just w/ds.

Saint
01-12-2008, 02:04 PM
Hola , really dont wanna sound negative but tramadol did nothin for me.B4 you make the switch make sure you have the recourse to switch back to juice and if your doc is willing maybe try something else .Have you tried DF118?
I foolishly dose myself, but maybe something combined wiv your juice to give you a bit more energy will help and then you might get the right combo to get you down to minimum juice...Wishin you welll Raz

Raz: what on earth is DF118? I've never heard of it. I'm not on juice but on the 5 mg pills and tapered to 40 mgs yesterday. I'm quite strong as far as tapering is concerned (if I may say so myself ) and I know I can taper to 15 to 20 mgs but... then comes the pain. So that's the problem over and over again: I taper to 15 or 10 mgs, feel a bit shitty, sleepless and sick, o.k. admit to that, but it's still bearable - but then, gradually, something changes and I'll get terrible stomachpains, musclepains, headaches, twitching muscles and go rapidly downhill from then on. I tried tapering numerous times. I even made it to 0 methadon a few times but stayed sick for almost a year. So it's in THAT particular period I'd like to try tramadol and see if it helps.

And what next? Eerased: you have a point there: to be honest, I don't know. I'd like to think that after using tramadol for a year or so my brainchemistry has ''wiped out'' the methadone so that I might be able to taper off tramadol too. But I really don't know..
I tried switching to subuxone but failed. And I'm willing to try anything to come off methadone.. but it's really a long shot.
I can easily save up some extra methadone in case 'the experiment' fails so that won't be a problem. Anyway, I don't want to try this before I'm anywhere near 15 mgs again so that will take a few more weeks/months I think. But I'm seriously considering trying it...

And Eerased: are you serious that it took your withdrawals away when you were on 80 mgs??! That is amazing. I want to taper to 15 mgs and then try tramadol but am not sure if 15 mgs is possibly still too much to feel anything from the tramadols... obviously 15 mgs would be a low enough dose for you!

reddragon3668
01-12-2008, 02:29 PM
I agree with what other people have said here. The problem your in is that you have pain. If you were simply trying to get off of methadone and then all opiates altogether, you would likely be okay with Tramadol. But, methadone, for analgesic purposes, is in a totally different league than tramadol. For allot of people, and I know there are exceptions, methadone is one of the best analgesics available.

I'm not sure how much pain you were dealing with several years ago when you took the Tramadol. And, I'm not sure how long you were out of the 'done. Being on 'done as long as you have, I am sure there is nothing I can tell you about it that you don't already know. But, have you considered the cross tolerance issue that was likely present when you made the switch? With the long half life of 'done, you were probably, at least for a while, still getting some effects from the 'done.

As you said, you would definitely have to taper on the 'done before making the switch. How well do you think you can handle your pain during the taper? I'd hate to see you suffering like that. Is it possible for you to get into another doctor who doesn't know your history and be treated solely for your pain issues? I know its a catch 22... if you don't tell them that your not on anything, then their likely to start you off on something like Tramadol to begin with.

I hope you can get it sorted out. Have you considered trying going up on the 'done? I know that's the exact opposite of what you want to do, and I hesitate to even suggest it. But, in my experience, pain has a way of zapping your energy and making you feel like shit anyways. Maybe your pain condition is the culprit, and an increase in the 'done may help alleviate it and in turn, make you feel better. Just a suggestion.

Sorry for the rambling. I just hate to see someone suffering and I do wish you the best. I know how bad I wanted off 'done; I was on it for six years and was up to 240mg a day scripted, but often took as much as 400mg a day. However, I've wished a thousand times since that I'd of just left it alone. It wasn't until recently, when the doctor put me on Opana, that I've found anything near the relief that I got off of 'done.

Good luck!

eerased
01-12-2008, 02:42 PM
And Eerased: are you serious that it took your withdrawals away when you were on 80 mgs??! That is amazing. I want to taper to 15 mgs and then try tramadol but am not sure if 15 mgs is possibly still too much to feel anything from the tramadols... obviously 15 mgs would be a low enough dose for you!

YES 80 mg done for 6-8 months 4 days without methadone, ONLY Trams worked. I know it's hard to imagine. I'm NOT opy naive I've been on junk for 13-14 years and this worked for me. I dont know if it will work for you. You said you have trams right?? IF so stop taking your done for a day or so and try it. It wont hurt you. I would try to hold off for 48 hours of done if you really want to see as most times (in my case) I could easily skip a day or two from the clinic with no major wd..

May cause you a short time of discomfort if it doesnt work. It certainly wont kill you. Try it who knows it may work. Obviously tapering works for some and not for others. I know one this there is a HUGE
difference in jumping from 50mg to 40 mgs of meth as opposed to jumping from 40-15.. It's not that easy. that is probably the worse part of methadone taper from 40 down.:mad:

slugbone
01-12-2008, 03:14 PM
- What would roughly be the equivalent of 10 mgs of methadone in tramadol? Or does it differ from person to person.. Any ideas?

- Can one use tramadol as a maintenance drug?

- Are tramadol withdrawals worse than methadone-WD's, even with a very slow taper?

- Anyone out here tried this particular switch? (Nikita70: how's your husband doing now?).

I hope I've posted this in the right forum. There isn't a tramadol-forum (yet) as far as I know.

i've been able to use trams to w/d from oxy, percs and pods, without much w/d symptoms - and i've been using tramadol daily for almost 3 years now.

the w/d are unpleasant, mainly aching and "head creeps" and restless legs that make it difficult to sleep

starglazer33
01-12-2008, 03:20 PM
jeez, saint good luck. one thing i do know is anything is possible, you know your own body. So i just wanted to say give it a go and good luck you can always go back on the done.

whole lotta luck man. sg33

Saint
01-12-2008, 03:25 PM
I'm not sure how much pain you were dealing with several years ago when you took the Tramadol.

That's the thing: as far as I remember it was during one of my 'better periods' so the pain was there but moderate at the time.. I wouldn't have been able to travel otherwise.

But, have you considered the cross tolerance issue that was likely present when you made the switch? With the long half life of 'done, you were probably, at least for a while, still getting some effects from the 'done.

Have thought about that. I guess I'd need to wait about 2 to 3 days before taking my first tramadols, like I did when I was switching to subs.

As you said, you would definitely have to taper on the 'done before making the switch. How well do you think you can handle your pain during the taper? I'd hate to see you suffering like that. Is it possible for you to get into another doctor who doesn't know your history and be treated solely for your pain issues? I know its a catch 22... if you don't tell them that your not on anything, then their likely to start you off on something like Tramadol to begin with.

Normally I can handle pain (have been in quite a lot of pain for about ten weeks during my last attempt to switch to subs but I can only handle it for so long, like a month or two... + there is a point where I need to function/work again etc.
There is no way I can find another doc. They always look into your files so they'll find out you have used methadone for addictionreasons in the past. That's the annoying thing: they will automatically treat you like an addict, not like a painpatient even though I haven't used illegal drugs for almost a decade now.

I hope you can get it sorted out. Have you considered trying going up on the 'done? I know that's the exact opposite of what you want to do, and I hesitate to even suggest it. But, in my experience, pain has a way of zapping your energy and making you feel like shit anyways. Maybe your pain condition is the culprit, and an increase in the 'done may help alleviate it and in turn, make you feel better. Just a suggestion.

I have considered that but I really hate methadone so much and want to be off it so badly that I'm willing to try anything before increasing my dose again.. maybe I'm too stubborn, don't know. About a gram of heroine IV + 80 mgs of methadone was about the highest 'dose' I was ever on in the past and I sure felt way better back then (and then I don't mean high but better as in painfree and energetic) but I'm off heroine now because I know I can't handle it.
Maybe it would be better to increase my dose but then again: that means no more sexlife (which I barely have as it is on 40 mgs of done), even more constipation and less feelings... Maybe I'd rather have more pain AND feelings..

Sorry for the rambling. I just hate to see someone suffering and I do wish you the best. I know how bad I wanted off 'done; I was on it for six years and was up to 240mg a day scripted, but often took as much as 400mg a day. However, I've wished a thousand times since that I'd of just left it alone. It wasn't until recently, when the doctor put me on Opana, that I've found anything near the relief that I got off of 'done.
Good luck!

And you're not rambling! In fact you understood exactly what I meant. So thanks for the reply.

reddragon3668
01-12-2008, 03:43 PM
Never a truer word spoken! Back before I knew anything about the harsh withdrawals of methadone, I got to feeling really good and tapered down to 5mg of 'done a day. Thinking that it was hardly anything to worry about, I got rid of the rest I had and didn't expect any problems. Wrong! I literally thought I was going to die around the second day. We had a hurricane come through and everything, doctor's office and all, was closed for about five days. It was the worst experience with medication that I've ever had. I know it was horribly stupid on my part, I just couldn't fathom how bad going from 5 mg to zero could actually be. OMG!! I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

In retrospect, if I would have switched over to something like Vicodin, I would have probably had a much easier time of it. Oh well, hind sight is 20/20, I guess. Opiophile has been a tremendous asset of information for me. Wish I would have had it to draw from back then!!!



::Snip:: I know one this there is a HUGE
difference in jumping from 50mg to 40 mgs of meth as opposed to jumping from 40-15.. It's not that easy. that is probably the worse part of methadone taper from 40 down.:mad:

Saint
01-12-2008, 03:43 PM
Thanks all. Unfortunately I do not have any tramadol now. But I need to taper first anyway so that would take me some (unpleasant) months first :mad:. But I have been thinking about ordering them online to try if it would work, like Eerased said. I wouldn't know where to order them (never did anything like that before, aren't those online pharmacies all a scam?) so maybe I'll have a talk with my doc first.

Slugbone: so you have used them for three years.. Then I guess it's possible to have some sort of maintenance on them. For a while anyway.

When I took them a few years ago I was still ON methadone but had tapered from 60 to 10 mgs quite fast. Then I got very sick and I started taking 5 mgs of methadone in combination with 100 mgs tramadol and that worked miracles. But I only had enough tramadol for a week or so so I never got to find out if I would be able to quit methadone completely.

Saint
01-12-2008, 03:46 PM
Never a truer word spoken! Back before I knew anything about the harsh withdrawals of methadone, I got to feeling really good and tapered down to 5mg of 'done a day. Thinking that it was hardly anything to worry about, I got rid of the rest I had and didn't expect any problems. Wrong! I literally thought I was going to die around the second day. We had a hurricane come through and everything, doctor's office and all, was closed for about five days. It was the worst experience with medication that I've ever had. I know it was horribly stupid on my part, I just couldn't fathom how bad going from 5 mg to zero could actually be. OMG!! I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

In retrospect, if I would have switched over to something like Vicodin, I would have probably had a much easier time of it. Oh well, hind sight is 20/20, I guess. Opiophile has been a tremendous asset of information for me. Wish I would have had it to draw from back then!!!

Yes, below 30 is where real hell begins. I can taper to 15 and then keep feeling sick for months. Like your brain doesn't adapt to the lower doses.

eerased
01-12-2008, 04:06 PM
at least you can taper that's a good thing. I know for the life of me I cannot taper. I dont have it in me. I always end up taking more when I have the brain set that I need to taper. Takes to much will power for me. So at least that's one thing good you got going for ya.. Good luck Saint I'm sure you'll be able to do anything you set your mind too.



Yes, below 30 is where real hell begins. I can taper to 15 and then keep feeling sick for months. Like your brain doesn't adapt to the lower doses.

Saint
01-12-2008, 04:19 PM
Thanks. IF I'm going the tramadol route I'll make sure to post about it here. Although I will probably fail (like I did on subuxone - because it didn't help with my pain) but anything that might help me get off methadone is worth a try imo. Even if it's a 5% chance..

I hear the wild mice are waking up, scratching about between the ceiling so it's nearly bedtime here :-)

Vico-Dan
01-12-2008, 08:15 PM
Tramadol is an ineffective pain reliever, the W/D's are bad, and it is easy to build up a tolerance to it.

Tram is only good to keep around as an emergency backup, as it is better then nothing.

It is easy to get online, overnight, but I don't have much good to say about Tramadol.

I would slowly taper down on the 'done to a low level that blocks your pain but doesn't make you too sluggish or out of it.

I was on MMT for 10 years and wish I never got off of it as it helped greatly with pain, blocked the cravings, was relatively inexpensive and I had 6 take-homes a week and only had to visit the clinic 1x per week. I got off right around the time a month's worth was just starting to become allowed by law to take home and I had would have easily been eligilble.

I would go back on it, but I just don't live close enough to the clinic now and can't go every day to dose.

If I still had my "steps" and was allowed 6 take homes a week, I would sign the papers in a minute and get back on it, but it's been about 4 or 5 years since I got off it.

I felt a false sense of security when I was on a low dose and thought I could live comfortably without pain meds, but I wasn't.

Tapering wasn't a problem, and neither was getting off of MMT, but I had forgotton about what it's like to be in pain all the time after being on MMT for 10 years.

I went 1.5 years without any pain meds and started taking them again due to chronic pain, and now my tolerance and daily use is back now.

I'm going to try to get on Subox and just stay on a maintenance program to deal with my CP issues.

mikells43
01-12-2008, 08:31 PM
tramadol will prob not do anythign for u. its pretty weak actually. and if u were going to get any use for pain ud have to use over 250mgs. i was taking 40-50 of the 200mg tabs a day just to mantain a 200mg oxy habit(or whatever i could get habit). and if u convert that on one fo the converters ur oging to be suprised. any doc will toss you trams. if u want to get some before u see ur doc ill send u a link cause i dont want to post it and god forbid get anouther infraction...

and the tram w/ds are like any other opiate. mabey even worse. the rls is horrible with tram w/d.

Saint
01-13-2008, 07:56 AM
Well, you both make me doubt it again.. maybe it's best to try and taper a little further first, see if I can handle tapering to 20 mgs with my pain and all.
And then, say that I make it to 15 mgs, stay there for a few months. If things level out and I feel o.k. I can decide from there. If I can not function on 15 mgs I might as well stay on the done..
Maybe I will keep some trams as a back-up like you said. Because they sure helped when I was sick on only 5 to 10 mgs of methadon. But I should take care not to take them daily then because I do not need another addiction.
I was hoping that WD-s from tramadol aren't as bad as those from methadone.. that would make for a good excuse to switch to trams during that last stage of methadone-withdrawal..

Raz
01-13-2008, 09:43 AM
Hola Saint, sorry havent responded sooner.Busy bein my daughter and friends chauffeur.
I'm sure the U S guys will tell you another brand name, but DF 118 is dihydracodiene. Might be the Uk equiv of vicodin.?But i do know from experience that DF's give you a burst of energy when you are tapering from juice and can also keep withdrawals at bay,dependin on your dose.Find out if i am correct about the DF118=vicodine, but it is prescribed as a painkiller in the uk, especially for people who have regular jobs .But they are reluctant to prescribe it to any dope fiend.But it may work for you.My advice would be, have a stockpile wiv your juice and try different things untill something works for you other than meth.If nothin works (unlikely) you will have your done to get you out of trouble.
Good luck and dont give up searchin for your answer, i'm sure you'll get there......Raz

Saint
01-18-2008, 04:32 PM
I spoke to my specialist on the phone today and he claims I can switch from methadone to tramadol if I really want to get off methadone and can stand feeling a little ''uneasy'' for a few days but I will have to taper to max 20 mgs of methadone first. Preferably 15 mgs or less. He compared to subs, mor or less? But subs didn't work for me and tramadol did (a few years ago anyway, when my tolerance was very low).

He doesn't recommend using tramadol longer than two years though (i.e. not as a maintenancedrug) and he didn't say anything about tramadol-WD's nor about how much I'd actually need switching from 20 mgs...
So I'm wondering if I should try this.. I am on 40 mgs of methadone now, going down to 30 by the end of february and hopefully to 20 mgs by the end of march/april...
If I'm going to try this in may I will post about it here, although I will probably fail - once again... but it's worth a try.
Anyone have experience with how much tramadol I would need coming of 20 mgs? (I'm going to see a painspecialist about this in march so he'll probably tell me but anyway but I am just curious)

20Dollarholla
01-19-2008, 07:13 AM
I cant taper either. I have been dropped from 130mg downto 90mg (5mg drops bi-weekly) and it is killing me and the hardest part of methadone detox hasnt even started (below 50mg).

Now for the tramadol if it works for you, your one lucky guy. Its a wierd drug that does it for some, but for others it doesnt do shit even in HIGH doses. For me It never did anything, even back in the day when two percocets would have me staring at the Television for hours.

Good luck bro, also find a new PM doc, that will give you the Fent. It is the best at killing pain , IMO


at least you can taper that's a good thing. I know for the life of me I cannot taper. I dont have it in me. I always end up taking more when I have the brain set that I need to taper. Takes to much will power for me. So at least that's one thing good you got going for ya.. Good luck Saint I'm sure you'll be able to do anything you set your mind too.

roxi*stardust
01-19-2008, 08:52 AM
Tramadol is an ineffective pain reliever, the W/D's are bad, and it is easy to build up a tolerance to it.

Tram is only good to keep around as an emergency backup, as it is better then nothing.

It is easy to get online, overnight, but I don't have much good to say about Tramadol.

I would slowly taper down on the 'done to a low level that blocks your pain but doesn't make you too sluggish or out of it.

I was on MMT for 10 years and wish I never got off of it as it helped greatly with pain, blocked the cravings, was relatively inexpensive and I had 6 take-homes a week and only had to visit the clinic 1x per week. I got off right around the time a month's worth was just starting to become allowed by law to take home and I had would have easily been eligilble.

I would go back on it, but I just don't live close enough to the clinic now and can't go every day to dose.

If I still had my "steps" and was allowed 6 take homes a week, I would sign the papers in a minute and get back on it, but it's been about 4 or 5 years since I got off it.

I felt a false sense of security when I was on a low dose and thought I could live comfortably without pain meds, but I wasn't.

Tapering wasn't a problem, and neither was getting off of MMT, but I had forgotton about what it's like to be in pain all the time after being on MMT for 10 years.

I went 1.5 years without any pain meds and started taking them again due to chronic pain, and now my tolerance and daily use is back now.

I'm going to try to get on Subox and just stay on a maintenance program to deal with my CP issues.

Not to hi-jack the thread but Vico-Dan, I can tell you from my own personal experience with Suboxone and chronic pain that Suboxone does not help at all with pain. In fact I sometimes think it makes pain worse. I have no proof of this but I'm sure some here will agree, it almost seems to take away the body's natural opiates. It's almost like it's antagonist effect is so strong that it takes the natural opiates right off your receptors.

resorcinol
01-19-2008, 08:58 AM
So I already asked my doc about switching me to another opiate with a shorter halflife (so that a future taper would be a bit less agonizing) but she is very reluctant. She will not prescribe fentanyl 'because it's an opiate' (but she does prescribe me my methadone every month!...?).
Anyway, a possible option is ultram. She is o.k. with that.

It's nuts how illogical the statements that doctors make can be sometimes. Hello docdoc, methadone is one a those OPIATES too! omg!

And switching from methadone to trams? Your doc is nuts - does she/he want you to be very uncomfortable for a long time?

Fent would be a better choice and would actually be easier to get off of when you want to stop, but god forbid the doc prescribe something that may possibly cause euphoria as a side effect. Euphoria is evil according to these puritans.

Raz
01-19-2008, 09:26 AM
I wouldnt recommend tramadol for anyone on a high dose of methadone.You would have to be on a real low dose to comfortably swop.Sorry i don't know much about long term tramadol use, but it has never done anything for me.But has worked for others i know.Maybe its down to your personal metabilism....
Whatever you choose, have your meth handy if it doesnt work.raz

Saint
01-19-2008, 11:27 AM
Not to hi-jack the thread but Vico-Dan, I can tell you from my own personal experience with Suboxone and chronic pain that Suboxone does not help at all with pain. In fact I sometimes think it makes pain worse. I have no proof of this but I'm sure some here will agree, it almost seems to take away the body's natural opiates. It's almost like it's antagonist effect is so strong that it takes the natural opiates right off your receptors.

Here is someone that couldn't agree more. I suffer from IBS and chronic pain and when I switched to subutex (from 10 mgs of methadone) my muscles started to get more and more tense and hurt like hell. I also suffered from neuropatic pain in gut/stomachrgion.
Then they put me on subuxone - obligatory - because subutex was taken of the market here (in Holland) and things became even worse. The pain became a nightmare.
I tried upping my dose (doctors advise) because according to her subuxone was ''a very, very strong painkiller'' but it did absolutely nothing!! On the contrary, it made things worse.
So I tried a lower dose and I went from 20 mgs of subuxone back to 8 again. Didn't feel much WD-symptoms such as the sneezing and tearing etc. but still the same amount of pain.

I think sub totally sucks as a painkiller and I agree a 100% that it possibly INcreases the pain for some.

Saint
01-19-2008, 11:40 AM
It's nuts how illogical the statements that doctors make can be sometimes. Hello docdoc, methadone is one a those OPIATES too! omg!

Lol, yeah, that's what I told her, that methadone is an opiate already so WTF? But she refuses to help me and sent me to a painclinic. But the painclinic knows I have been addicted so they'll send me to a shrink, which is 'common procedure' according to them. It's no use telling them that I haven't used any drugs in almost 9 years now and that I am simply in pain. I don't have any cravings, I don't need a buzz, fuck, all I want is to be more or less painfree.

And switching from methadone to trams? Your doc is nuts - does she/he want you to be very uncomfortable for a long time?

Fent would be a better choice and would actually be easier to get off of when you want to stop, but god forbid the doc prescribe something that may possibly cause euphoria as a side effect. Euphoria is evil according to these puritans.

You are probably right but when I proposed switching to fent they gave me that ''Oo sigh, here's another junky that wants to get legally high-look''... so I won't get anything more out of this than tramadol anyway. Either that or methadone. I just don't get it. Is fent that much more dangerous than methadone? Why won't they let me switch? Is it more addictive?
God, I hate all this time consuming bullshit with going to doctors and having tests and filling in questionaires but then ending up with nothing - every time again.
One would almost think that I'd be better off on heroine. At least that worked for pain and it wasn't such a hassle getting it in th first place..

nick
01-19-2008, 11:42 AM
As others have wisely noted,don't try to switch to trams till you've tappered right down.

You could consider DF'S,as Raz pointed out,they might be a better bet.In England,they're often used at the end of a long 'done detox and occasionaly as a replacement for 'done.

Whichever you choose much luck Saint.

Duckfeet
01-19-2008, 12:12 PM
Yup: we've talked before, Saint, and I always follow yer posts w/interest, since I think we have similar views on this. I'm at 40mg daily, down from 100mg, but I also know that much lower--for me it's 35mg--and then comes the pain. And I know there are exceptions, and different stuff, but things like tramadol, are like propoxyphene to me, and do not make a dent in methadone habit. Methadone is powerful, all-consuming opiate, and only thing that touches it, is another powerful all-consuming opiate...*not* tramadol...again, there are always going to be the rare exceptions...but I learned a long time ago, there is no free lunch, when it comes to opiates, and that only thing that will "work" is another srong opiate, which defeats the purpose.

I too, am slowly trying to wean myself off methadone, and going slower than I usually do, and try to do the detox without hope and without despair, simply just "do it," and what keeps me going is that I have succeeded in getting off methadone a couple of times before, and know it can be done, just takes a while...

I know I'd be a good candidate for heroin maintenance, but that isn't going to happen in my lifetime, here, and I can't leave Mom alone to try another country, so I may very well have to accept my methadone "fate" and stay on it, and I'll do the best I can, if such is the case.

Anyway, I've always liked yer honest down to earth attitude about such a troubling drug, and I appreciate your posts....



Raz: what on earth is DF118? I've never heard of it. I'm not on juice but on the 5 mg pills and tapered to 40 mgs yesterday. I'm quite strong as far as tapering is concerned (if I may say so myself ) and I know I can taper to 15 to 20 mgs but... then comes the pain. So that's the problem over and over again: I taper to 15 or 10 mgs, feel a bit shitty, sleepless and sick, o.k. admit to that, but it's still bearable - but then, gradually, something changes and I'll get terrible stomachpains, musclepains, headaches, twitching muscles and go rapidly downhill from then on. I tried tapering numerous times. I even made it to 0 methadon a few times but stayed sick for almost a year. So it's in THAT particular period I'd like to try tramadol and see if it helps.

And what next? Eerased: you have a point there: to be honest, I don't know. I'd like to think that after using tramadol for a year or so my brainchemistry has ''wiped out'' the methadone so that I might be able to taper off tramadol too. But I really don't know..
I tried switching to subuxone but failed. And I'm willing to try anything to come off methadone.. but it's really a long shot.
I can easily save up some extra methadone in case 'the experiment' fails so that won't be a problem. Anyway, I don't want to try this before I'm anywhere near 15 mgs again so that will take a few more weeks/months I think. But I'm seriously considering trying it...

And Eerased: are you serious that it took your withdrawals away when you were on 80 mgs??! That is amazing. I want to taper to 15 mgs and then try tramadol but am not sure if 15 mgs is possibly still too much to feel anything from the tramadols... obviously 15 mgs would be a low enough dose for you!

Saint
01-20-2008, 05:59 AM
''try to do the detox without hope and without despair, simply just "do it,"

You're right: that's the only way to do it after years and years on dope and methadone. Just do it, do it slowly and hope for the best..
I have tried so many different tricks and schemes, detoxes, switches.. and I'll keep on trying until something works out.
And if nothing will I'll just live life as good as it gets. Take my methadone, maybe go to South America again for a few months, make the most of it.

I keep fighting methadone and am still hoping for some miracle that will make my pain disappear. My goal is to feel again, experience those little twitches of happiness that I used to feel when I was riding my bike on a sunny day or when walking in the mountains listening to good music.. long ago. Methadone turns me into a semi-zombi, I'm not totally depressed but I don't feel happy either.
I miss those laughingfits of my younger days, the enthusiasm when making plans for a far away trip, the spark of life.

So I just try and taper again, just do it, like you said, without hope and without despair.

Saint
01-20-2008, 07:23 AM
Fuck, about switching to tramadol, I just read this:

*Some medications are opioid blockers and may cause withdrawal. These block the effect of methadone and SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN if you are taking methadone:

*Naltrexone (Revia)

*Tramadol (Ultram), in most cases

So WTF? My doc told me to taper to 20 mgs methadone and then switch to tramadol after waiting 24 hours but reading this it seems like I should taper to almost nothing first or I'll get precipitated WD-s!.. Anyone have experience with mixing methadone and ultram/tramadol? Like I said: I used tramadol once when I was on a low dose of methadone (10 mgs) and I don't remember anything bad happening, on the contrary, I felt good. But that was a long time ago and I want to be sure I can try this without any ill-effects..

HandMeSomeOpiates
01-21-2008, 03:12 AM
I just took 40mg of methadone at 5:30PM and took 200mg of Tramadol at 11PM and feel great.

REVEREND
01-21-2008, 07:53 AM
I got off done using tramadol.(and lots of pot)
I was takin bout 100mgs of done a day for a few years.I slowly tappered down to bout 5 to 10 mgs using trams in between for pain and w/ds.
It worked I haven't takin any done in 7 months (I still have some)and I still use trams for pain.
I would try to get bellow 20mgs of done before switching.See if your doc. will give you both so you can start to substitute trams for done that helped me.
REVEREND
P.S.-I was on done and any number of other opiates for 7 years for pain in my back and hips I also had surgery on my hip now that I don't have a habit my back and hips feel much better?
REVEREND

OxyContinuously
01-21-2008, 08:28 AM
As some of you know I'm sort of wrestling with methadone. I am using it for pain (although I started using it for heroine-addiction 24 years ago). Anyway, I want off this shit and tried everything - from slow tapers to subuxone but my final conclusion is that I do need SOMETHING for my pain.. subs aren't cutting it and methadone makes me feel like I'm only 'half alive'..

So I already asked my doc about switching me to another opiate with a shorter halflife (so that a future taper would be a bit less agonizing) but she is very reluctant. She will not prescribe fentanyl 'because it's an opiate' (but she does prescribe me my methadone every month!...?).
Anyway, a possible option is ultram. She is o.k. with that.

Now, before you all start about the seizures etc, I know that and am aware of the dangers so I do not want to use over 250 mgs of tramadol a day.

I have tried tramadol once before, when I ran out of methadone. At the time I used about 20 mgs of methadone daily but due to ''border-related circumstances'' I only had 5 mgs a day left. This was in South America so I could not get my hands on any methadone and bought some tramadol.
And to my own surprise it actually worked! I think I took about 100 to 150 mgs tramadol a day and felt pretty good, almost normal again and energetic too.

So I'm considering switching from methadone to tramadol in the future - I already used the search engine which produced a few helpful threads:
http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=9008&highlight=methadone+tramadol
http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=6764&highlight=methadone+tramadol

But I still have some questions:

- I am on 50 mgs of methadone now, how much would I need to taper before it's relatively safe to make this switch? To 25 mgs of done? 10 mgs?

- What would roughly be the equivalent of 10 mgs of methadone in tramadol? Or does it differ from person to person.. Any ideas?

- Can one use tramadol as a maintenance drug?

- Are tramadol withdrawals worse than methadone-WD's, even with a very slow taper?

- Anyone out here tried this particular switch? (Nikita70: how's your husband doing now?).

I hope I've posted this in the right forum. There isn't a tramadol-forum (yet) as far as I know.

Mornin' Saint :D

Okay, let's see, here...I am going to ttry and answer all ur questions to the best of my ability (I have solid experience w/ both methadone and tramadol--high and low doses)

1) The taper. Well, u said you take 50mg of methadone daily right now...In tramadol dosages, that would be extremely impractical, just cause u would have to take so darn much! I would recommend tapering the methadone slowly (whatever makes u comfortable) to around 15mg or so daily. The way i see it is that by going down to 15mg, u gave ur body time to accept the fact that it's methadone concentrations are going down, so WD should be eliminated.

2) Equivalencies. Okay, 10 mg of methadone (or 15 for that matter) is a very workable dose, meaning there are no blocking effects, and it is not such a horror show to get off of it in that dosage range.. An educated guess would be that every ten milligrams of methadone is roughly equal to perhaps 100 mg or so... Now the thing with tramadol, Saint, is that one can go up to 450mg or so a day, but remember, anything over that not only is not effective, but can be dangerous. You know this already, but I just want to say that tramadol's activity at mu is much weaker than methadone...Meth has a very long half-life, hence u do not need to dose very often; now tramadol is a four-hour gig, meaning that unlike the methadone, u will have to re-dose accordingly thorughout the day. I would say though, that if u get down to 10mg methadone per day, and make the switch, u could be comfortable with let's say three doses of 100mg tramadol per day...

3) Maintenance. Sure one can maintain on tramadol. Just remember it is a weaker painkiller than methadone, so u will need to adjust ur dose...Tramadol does work well for pain, and it IS an opiate, so sure, maintenance is possible...It will be a three times daily routine though, unlike methadone which lasts longer...and has a much stronger affinity for mu (the receptor in ur brain that opiates bind to to give effects)

4) Withdrawal. No--> tramadol's wd's are no picnic, mind you, but are not nearly as horrific as methadone's...Reasoning is simple: methadone has such a long half-life, that it takes ages for it to clear out of ur body, hence the hellish withdrawal syndrome. Tramadol, on the other hand, like i was saying before, is a four hour med, so it's WD is similar to moderate dose oxycodone, for example. Plus remember that tram's affinity for the "mu" receptor is much less than methadone, so the dependence formed will be MUCH less than that of methadone.

5) Anyone tried this? NO, ma'am :D...I haven't tried this particular switch (and for my addiction, I use Suboxone rather than methadone to maintain) but you have a solid plan, most importantly, u recognize that you will need to taper down from 50mg of methadone...THat is perfectly "do-able," and there is no doubt in my mind that if you do it slowly, it will be a painless switch. The key is gettting the methadone down to an appreciable level, which as you suggested, would be around 10 or 15 milligrams..


Notes:

--Tramadol is an atypical opiate in the sense that it does different things for different people. For example, some find it to be as good as oxycodone, in comparitive doses as far as analgesia, and relief of WD, etc.

--NOw we were discussing daily dosage for you. I suggested around 300 mg per day. I still stand by that, but I was going to add, you may find that you need less than that. The reason for this is that there are studies out there that suggest anti-depressant serotonin activity from tramadol-- something unique to it and perhaps buprenorphine...But most opiates, while they relieve depression, this is due to endorphins, etc. and not inhibition of serotonin re-uptake. Tramadol, and to a lesser extent, bupe, are believed to be good anti-depressants as well. And because of this, many find that they can take up to a third less than they normally would, and have all their pain, and WD concerns taken care of. A nice little bonus, I thought! ;)

--Just a reminder that (as far as i know) tramadol exists by itself, and also as Ultracet, which contains acetaminophen...I was just going to say to remember how nasty APAP is on ur liver and stuff, so if you get "Ultracet," just be mindful of the Tylenol.

--The medical community and the Bible of drugs, the "Physicians' Desk Reference" or "PDR" says that strength for strength, tramadol is approximately 17 to 20% as potent as morphine, milligram for milligram, so using that logic, 150 milligrams of tramadol, for example, should be identical is pain-killing abilities to about 25mg of morphine...i know 25mg of morphine is a very low number, but remember that it's just a guide, for reference...Like 150 of tram, while similar to morphine in the 25mg range, won't feel "weak" like 25mg of 'phine, you know what i mean? The comparison given in the PDR was so one could get a rough equivalency of how much tramadol they would require compared to other opioid meds...

Well, I tried to include everything I could think of, and i hope this helps you out

take care

have a nice day

Oxy

Saint
01-24-2008, 11:38 AM
Jeez, all. Great info. I really appreciate it, thanks!! I'm sorry for responing so late but I am usually not online during weekdays because of my work + I have no internet at home.
I'm especially greatful to Oxy since he provided a wealth of good information and I certainly plan on following his advice.
I have already tapered to 35 mgs of methadone but my pain is coming back bigtime so I'll wait a week or two before going down to 30 mgs.
My goal is to be back on 15 to 20 mgs of methadone by april/may (I know it's very, very slow but I have a stressful, fulltime job and have used methadone for 25 years so I know what I should and shouldn't do, learned it the hard way..).

Once on 20 mgs of methadone (or less) I want to start using tramadol. Maybe skip methadone for a day and see what effects one or two trams have by then..
An ideal situation would be if I could hit the road again: travel some and then try to make the switch in a foreign, sunny location where I don't have any stress and can relax for a while. I'm planning on quitting my job by june anyway...

HandmeSomeOpiates: I had the same experience, I took both methadone AND tramadol and did not have any problems so I believe you. I didn't feel like tramadol caused any precipitated WD's. (But I still think it's wiser to taper a little further first).

Reverend: it's good to hear that it worked for you, so thanks for posting your experience. I have major back&hip problems myself by the way.

For now I will try and hold on to my slow but steady taper. If the time has come that I'll actually make this switch I might have a few more questions for you all...
But for now you have helped me a great deal. Thanks again & I will keep you posted.

OxyContinuously
01-24-2008, 01:10 PM
Saint, i think that's a solid plan you have outlined for yourself, and you'll do fine

LorTabitha
01-24-2008, 01:40 PM
Please do keep us updated, Saint!

I have taken tramadol for about 10 years now, I think (wow, has it been that long?) It's the only thing that works for my foot pain. (Trams don't take the pain completely away, but make it bearable.) I take trams along with OC and hydro and between the 3, I'm usually relatively comfortable. I usually take between 100-200 mg daily, more when the pain's really bad, but I'm mindful of the seizure warnings.

Saint
01-25-2008, 10:37 AM
I tried to order some tramadol online but couldn't get it (in Europe). But now I finally got some: fairly cheap and delivered in 4 days. I'm really amazed about this. So now I have a bunch of them but I can't try them because I'm still on 35 mgs of methadone and want to be on 15 mgs.. sucks. I'm really curious whether tramadol will work for me as good as some years ago but I'll just have to wait another two months.. In april/may 'll be back for an update about this.

Oh and Oxy, I'm a little confused about your reminder that ''tramadol exists by itself, and also as Ultracet, which contains acetaminophen...remember how nasty APAP is on ur liver and stuff, so if you get "Ultracet," just be mindful of the Tylenol''.
What is APAP? Same as acetaminophen? (Not that I know what that is..). As I understand it ultracet is worse for ones liver than tramadol is? But is tramadol in itself bad for your liver as well? (if taken in moderation).

OxyContinuously
01-25-2008, 11:34 AM
I tried to order some tramadol online but couldn't get it (in Europe). But now I finally got some: fairly cheap and delivered in 4 days. I'm really amazed about this. So now I have a bunch of them but I can't try them because I'm still on 35 mgs of methadone and want to be on 15 mgs.. sucks. I'm really curious whether tramadol will work for me as good as some years ago but I'll just have to wait another two months.. In april/may 'll be back for an update about this.

Oh and Oxy, I'm a little confused about your reminder that ''tramadol exists by itself, and also as Ultracet, which contains acetaminophen...remember how nasty APAP is on ur liver and stuff, so if you get "Ultracet," just be mindful of the Tylenol''.
What is APAP? Same as acetaminophen? (Not that I know what that is..). As I understand it ultracet is worse for ones liver than tramadol is? But is tramadol in itself bad for your liver as well? (if taken in moderation).


oh my fault, nah tramadol itself should be cool for your liver, i was talking about "ultracet" that has acetaminophen in it along with the tramadol...yeah, APAP is just another moniker for acetaminophen--same thing, also in some countries they call it paracetamol, but they're all the same thing--> acetaminophen.

oh, and acetaminophen is just a fancy name for "Tylenol" so acetaminophen, paracetamol, APAP, and Tylenol are all one in the same..

Saint
01-25-2008, 12:06 PM
Thanks! I'm really hoping tramadol works/helps for methadone WD-s.. But if it doesn't do shit I'll post about the results as well. So I'll let you know in april/may..

Saint
01-25-2008, 05:02 PM
Shit, forgot to ask: can I use banzo's once I try this? I know from experience that once below 20 mgs of methadone I can't sleep AT ALL, get really tight muscles (already have some muscle-problems on 35 mgs) so then I usually take one valium 10 (or a serax 30 mgs).
Normally I am not a big benzo-user (am too scared of gettng hooked on them) but I know that they can be a great help when in WD's.
Is there any risk in combining, say, 200 mgs of tramadol with 10 to 20 mgs valium? Interactions etc?

Sorry to be asking so many questions but I want to have as much info possible on this...

LorTabitha
01-25-2008, 11:38 PM
Is there any risk in combining, say, 200 mgs of tramadol with 10 to 20 mgs valium? Interactions etc?

If so, I'm in trouble. :p You should be fine. If you're worried, take a little less of each and see how you do. Good luck on your taper!

tptptp
01-26-2008, 04:24 AM
I din't read the whole posts but the answer is possibly. If it's low dose 'done. I know someone who would take tramadol during pod WD's which is supposed o be very similar to done effects and it helps a little for a small tolerance but for a large tolerance I don't know if you'd even feel it at all.

Plus you'll likely end up popping more and more tramadol and tramadol has the seizure risk. Even if it helps it wont be any type of real relief but it'll smooth off the edge a bit.

Saint
02-15-2008, 11:49 AM
Like posted elsewhere: some days ago I forgot my eveningdose of methadone (I took about 10 mgs twice a day) so the next day I thought what the fuck, I'll try and skip my eveningdose another day and then try tramadol instead the third day.
So, by the third day on only 10 mgs I started feeling pretty shitty (remember: only a week before that I was still on 25 mgs of done) and I tried some tramadol - only 50 mgs to be exact - and it did help. Not very long though; I felt less WD's and less depressed for about 4 to 5 hours.

Concluding: last week I went from about 22.5 mgs of methadone to 10 mgs of methadone + some added tramadols during the day (150 mgs max) and so far things are going good.
However, I'm afraid of taking too much tramadols due to the seizure risk so I have not exceeded 150 mgs a day (yet).
But.. the thing is, if things keep going well, I'd like to try and get off methadone all together. Methadone just makes me feel like a zombie, even on a low dose.
For instance: I'd like to go to 5 mgs + trammies and eventualy go to zero methadone and tramadol only. But in that case I would be needing even more tramadol than I do now to fight WD-'s so I'd really need to keep the dose low now if I don't want to exceed the 400/450 mg a day limit later on..

I'd like to quit methadone all together but since I have a fulltime job I can't risk feeling too bad.
I'm planning on going to 5 mgs in about 3 weeks and to 0 methadone in about 6..

I posted this as an update.. I was planning on starting tramadol in april so it has been a little sooner than I thought. Due to the long halflife of methadone things might still get a lot worse though so I really don't have a clue if my taperplan will work eventually but we'll see..

REVEREND
02-15-2008, 01:36 PM
I tapperd down to bout 2.5 mgs of done a day before I stopped all together.
I spent months on the verge of being sick butt the trams helped a lot and it was worth it.
Hang in there its seems like you have the right mind set and that will really help you with the mind fuck.
I haven't found that taking more Trams help more.In fact I still take the same amonut 50-200mgs a day and I get the same results as the first time I took it.
So Saint if you start feeling sick I wouldn't take a bunch of Trams I would just take a small dose of done and see how long you can last.
I wouldn't push the tappering just relax and tapper as you feel you can.Only you know how much and fast you can tapper try not to worry bout it.It sucks but you can do it and you will be much better off when yer free.Hell I can get high off vics now:D
REVEREND

eerased
02-15-2008, 01:44 PM
Like posted elsewhere: some days ago I forgot my eveningdose of methadone (I took about 10 mgs twice a day) so the next day I thought what the fuck, I'll try and skip my eveningdose another day and then try tramadol instead the third day.
So, by the third day on only 10 mgs I started feeling pretty shitty (remember: only a week before that I was still on 25 mgs of done) and I tried some tramadol - only 50 mgs to be exact - and it did help. Not very long though; I felt less WD's and less depressed for about 4 to 5 hours.

Concluding: last week I went from about 22.5 mgs of methadone to 10 mgs of methadone + some added tramadols during the day (150 mgs max) and so far things are going good.
However, I'm afraid of taking too much tramadols due to the seizure risk so I have not exceeded 150 mgs a day (yet).
But.. the thing is, if things keep going well, I'd like to try and get off methadone all together. Methadone just makes me feel like a zombie, even on a low dose.
For instance: I'd like to go to 5 mgs + trammies and eventualy go to zero methadone and tramadol only. But in that case I would be needing even more tramadol than I do now to fight WD-'s so I'd really need to keep the dose low now if I don't want to exceed the 400/450 mg a day limit later on..

I'd like to quit methadone all together but since I have a fulltime job I can't risk feeling too bad.
I'm planning on going to 5 mgs in about 3 weeks and to 0 methadone in about 6..

I posted this as an update.. I was planning on starting tramadol in april so it has been a little sooner than I thought. Due to the long halflife of methadone things might still get a lot worse though so I really don't have a clue if my taperplan will work eventually but we'll see..

As I said in another post in this thread. The TRAMS WILL WORK..
in reality you are just replacing one vise for another... However if you can replace the small amount of done you are on with the trams for long enough to get the done outta you (3/4 weeks) without any done then you'll simply have a tram addiction. Which the w/ds are hell!!!! But not near as bad as DONE!!! They arent near as long either!

Saint
02-15-2008, 02:12 PM
As I said in another post in this thread. The TRAMS WILL WORK..
in reality you are just replacing one vise for another... However if you can replace the small amount of done you are on with the trams for long enough to get the done outta you (3/4 weeks) without any done then you'll simply have a tram addiction. Which the w/ds are hell!!!! But not near as bad as DONE!!! They arent near as long either!

Hell? ...thanks for putting my mind at ease... ;-)
Seriously: I tapered to 0 methadone and it was horrible (and took months) but it's still doable when you are strong. Don't make me think that tapering tramadol is worse!!

I don't really care about the replacing-thing, methadone just makes me feel depressed and 200 mgs of tramadol does not so that's really why I want to try this. I'm not sure if it will work out though, we'll see... I just want to try everything there is, I hate methadone...

What I want to know is: if it's just replacing one thing for another then why is it that most docs prescribe tramadol way easier than methadone?

And what about travelling? Will I get into problems with tramadol when crossing borders? Even with a letter from my doctor?


I tapperd down to bout 2.5 mgs of done a day before I stopped all together.
I spent months on the verge of being sick butt the trams helped a lot and it was worth it.
Hang in there its seems like you have the right mind set and that will really help you with the mind fuck.
I haven't found that taking more Trams help more.In fact I still take the same amonut 50-200mgs a day and I get the same results as the first time I took it.
So Saint if you start feeling sick I wouldn't take a bunch of Trams I would just take a small dose of done and see how long you can last.
I wouldn't push the tappering just relax and tapper as you feel you can.Only you know how much and fast you can tapper try not to worry bout it.It sucks but you can do it and you will be much better off when yer free.Hell I can get high off vics now:D
REVEREND

I'd like to stop methadone all together right now but it feels like it's way too early for that.. Actually I'm surprised that only 10 mgs of methadone and 2 tramadols a day are still holding me, while - about a month ago - I was still on 50 mgs of methadone at least... So we'll see what happens..
What is the maximum amount one can take per day? 400 mgs? I want off done but I don't want any seizures...

I'm sleeping lousy but so far I haven't taken any benzo's (which is quite out of the ordinary, mostly I use at least 10 mgs valium every now and then, even when on 50 mgs of methadone). Maybe I'll take 5 mgs tonight.

By the way: shouldn't the WD's of tramadol be easier than those from methadone due to the shorter halflife of tramadol?!....

REVEREND
02-15-2008, 03:23 PM
I haven't been through full Tramadol wds butt I have missed a day or two and felt not great butt not nearly as bad as even vicoden wds and anyway if you don't want to take trams anymore at some point tappering off Tramadol is pretty easy after going through done wds
Like I said I still don't have a tolerence to tramadol .I can still get the same effects as when I started and it makes me feel pretty not bad . Really Saint I wouldn't worry bout gettin hooked on tramadol.
Also I found that although Tramadol doesn't get me high like an opiate. It still seems to put me in a better mood and have more energy butt without that dopy feeling defenitly no nod to be had.
You could stay at 10mgs for awile till you feel like going down to 7.5 or even 5mgs.I just wouldn't try to go too fast you could get sick and it can really fuck with yer head.
Try not to think bout it too much just stay focused and don't dreal on it.
TAKE CARE
REVEREND

Saint
02-15-2008, 03:40 PM
Reverend: If you don't mind me asking: how long are you on tramadol for?

And you're right: I shouldn't think about it too much. So far so good. I'll take it easy, one step at a time and post an update every now and then. Thanks man.

eerased
02-15-2008, 05:25 PM
Hell? ...thanks for putting my mind at ease... ;-)
Seriously: I tapered to 0 methadone and it was horrible (and took months) but it's still doable when you are strong. Don't make me think that tapering tramadol is worse!!

I don't really care about the replacing-thing, methadone just makes me feel depressed and 200 mgs of tramadol does not so that's really why I want to try this. I'm not sure if it will work out though, we'll see... I just want to try everything there is, I hate methadone...

What I want to know is: if it's just replacing one thing for another then why is it that most docs prescribe tramadol way easier than methadone?

And what about travelling? Will I get into problems with tramadol when crossing borders? Even with a letter from my doctor?

No I guess I said that wrong. It's much easier to come off of Trams then Done.. You wont suffer near as bad as done..
I think you are putting to much though into this hon. Maybe making a little more mentally draining that you should. If I were you and this is just MY OPINION I would put the done down!
Take the trams only for a few days just try it!! You have the done at home right?? (cant remember)

If so put it away. Take the trams, see what happens. This is for sure you wont die! and then you will know for sure what you can and cant do..

Try taking only tram as long as you can. You may surprise yourself and be able to take it long enough to get the done outta your system. If you can do that and ultimately want to quit you can then taper off

of the trams (way easier than Done) also the thing about done is it's in your system much longer than most opys and thats what causes the w/d to be so long..

If you can do the trams now (only trams) you can cut the done outta your system within weeks! Try it Saint you have NOthing to loose!

As for the max dose of trams I dont know it for sure!! SOmeone will come along and fill you in.

Use the search engine and search out all info you can find on TRAM because I remember reading here that it's not that it causes seizures so much in ppl that arent already prone for them! Again I am not sure on this point so do some further research!

Bet heck go for it in trying to put the done down.. Let us know what you decide!!
Hugz

Saint
02-16-2008, 03:42 AM
No I guess I said that wrong. It's much easier to come off of Trams then Done.. You wont suffer near as bad as done..
I think you are putting to much though into this hon. Maybe making a little more mentally draining that you should. If I were you and this is just MY OPINION I would put the done down!
Take the trams only for a few days just try it!! You have the done at home right?? (cant remember)

If so put it away. Take the trams, see what happens. This is for sure you wont die! and then you will know for sure what you can and cant do..

Try taking only tram as long as you can. You may surprise yourself and be able to take it long enough to get the done outta your system. If you can do that and ultimately want to quit you can then taper off

of the trams (way easier than Done) also the thing about done is it's in your system much longer than most opys and thats what causes the w/d to be so long..

If you can do the trams now (only trams) you can cut the done outta your system within weeks! Try it Saint you have NOthing to loose!

As for the max dose of trams I dont know it for sure!! SOmeone will come along and fill you in.

Use the search engine and search out all info you can find on TRAM because I remember reading here that it's not that it causes seizures so much in ppl that arent already prone for them! Again I am not sure on this point so do some further research!

Bet heck go for it in trying to put the done down.. Let us know what you decide!!
Hugz

Thanks Eerased. Read this after waking up today and had already taken my done in the early morning but only 1 instead of 2 (so just 5 mgs which is lower than low). So yes, I'll try to go without the done starting tomorrow, and see what happens... I bought a few benzo's yesterday to help me get some sleep and against anxiety since I'm a bit shaky and piled up on tramadols too. But still: I don't want to exceed a max of 350/400 mgs.

And you're right: there was a thread about the seizurething not too long ago, I'll look it up.
I will try not to worry too much as well. I'm not exactly looking forward to working again on monday but maybe it'll keep my mind off things. I will keep you posted!

eerased
02-16-2008, 09:17 AM
Thanks Eerased. Read this after waking up today and had already taken my done in the early morning but only 1 instead of 2 (so just 5 mgs which is lower than low). So yes, I'll try to go without the done starting tomorrow, and see what happens... I bought a few benzo's yesterday to help me get some sleep and against anxiety since I'm a bit shaky and piled up on tramadols too. But still: I don't want to exceed a max of 350/400 mgs.

And you're right: there was a thread about the seizurething not too long ago, I'll look it up.
I will try not to worry too much as well. I'm not exactly looking forward to working again on monday but maybe it'll keep my mind off things. I will keep you posted!

You should be so proud of yourself for even being willing to take a chance! I betcha your gonna be surprised at how easy this may be! We tend to beat ourselves up mentally over things.. I'm like you I'd be thinking OMG now what!! Only taking 5 today wow if you can hang on that 5 and maybe tonight eat a couple trams around dinner then a few hours later take a benzo to help you sleep!! The thing is it should be a little time before the methadone even allows you to start w/ds.

And Monday if you arent feeling well at work (which I doubt) but to be safe you can always go back to a little methadone and start over again! This is not your last chance trying to quit or anything if you fall, dust yourself off and go at it again!:p

I'm gonna tell you the first time I got off done I hated life and wanted to die, I had no idea anything could feel like that but once it's outta your system the relief is so big!! Now you know what it will do to you so hopefully you wont do what I did and go back on..

However I had a reason to go back on and that's because I was pregnant! But anyhoo that's a whole nother thread..

I just wanted you to know that I'm pullin for you and thinking of you! I betcha you'll be fine. You've been thinking about this way to long to not give it a shot!! You deserve to set yourself free of that fucking ball and chain!!

:oWe only have one life and we gotta make the best of it!! Have a GREAT day!!:D

Saint
02-16-2008, 11:23 AM
He thanks, Eerased. Apart from the hot/cold sweats and a little chickenskin every now and then I'm doing o.k. It's freezing cold here so that doesn't make things any better. So far I only took 150 mgs tramadol today. I try to keep it as low as possible because I know that methadone WD-s won't be at their worst before the third/fourth/fifth day and I need to be able to take a few more tramadols then without going over the 350 mgs limit.
As from tomorrow I will stick to 2.5 mgs methadone and by thursday I'll take 3 to 4 days off work and go to zero (and increase the tramadol a little if necessary).
I'm not on-line much during weekdays (no internet at home) but I'll post an update next weekend.

By the way: where is everybody? There's hardly any new posts around lately... there used to be about 10 pages of new posts when I checked in the morning, now it's only 2 to 3...
Come on newbies keep it coming!

Saint
02-17-2008, 10:28 AM
Okee now, I have an urgent question: I cut my methadone down from 25 to 2.0 mgs only (half a pill)and am substituting with tramadol.
I take 50 mgs 4 times daily (one capsule of 50 mgs every 4 hours) but that isn't cutting it. I still have chickenskin, dripping nose, eyes, stoamchpain etc (although less than without the tramadol!). So would anyone please fill me in: how much can I take without risking a seizure? Can I go up to 300/350 mgs daily? I feel like 100 mgs taken at once would help a lot better than just 50 mgs (since they only work about 5 hours) but I am afraid to go up. Have to work fulltime again by tomorrow.
Any advice?

eerased
02-17-2008, 10:38 AM
Okee now, I have an urgent question: I cut my methadone down from 25 to 2.0 mgs only (half a pill)and am substituting with tramadol.
I take 50 mgs 4 times daily (one capsule of 50 mgs every 4 hours) but that isn't cutting it. I still have chickenskin, dripping nose, eyes, stoamchpain etc (although less than without the tramadol!). So would anyone please fill me in: how much can I take without risking a seizure? Can I go up to 300/350 mgs daily? I feel like 100 mgs taken at once would help a lot better than just 50 mgs (since they only work about 5 hours) but I am afraid to go up. Have to work fulltime again by tomorrow.
Any advice?

This is the answer I cant give you! I can give you some logic though. You've been taking the trams for a bit so your building a tolerance! I would say yes to you could take a little bit more. Take it slow! Try to add one and see if it helps. Your gonna feel a little pain through this but it's nothing like kickin methadone alone! I think you should try to hold strong. If the very worse case happens and you cant function at work Monday, you'll probably have to add that half of done back. Take it to work with you.


I wanted to add that when I put the done down and had the trams.. I didnt take ANY done and I was up there in dosage I'm talking 60-80 mgs cant remember at this moment.. I think 80
Again as far as tram dosage goes I'm not an expert but I've taken them like skittles with no side effects however everyone is different! So wait before and see if someone comes by to help ya out!!

I'm still very proud that your hanging!! I think you can do it! I think in weeks this will all be a bad memory!:D

Saint
02-17-2008, 01:57 PM
Thanks Eerased, there aren't much tramadol-users around except you and me I guess. To avoid misunderstandings: I am still on 2.5 mgs of done (which is only half a pill in Europe) but I was on 25 mgs (which is 5 pills) just last week.
So I cut down about 22.5 mgs in only three days and replaced it for 200/250 mgs tramadol.
I definitely feel like most of the methadone hasn't left my body yet, it's way too early for that anyway, so I'll stay on 2.5 mgs + 250 mgs of tramadol and wait it out. I do want to go up to 300 mgs once I'm on 0 methadone though. I feel reasonable whenever I take 100 mgs (less chickenskin, sweat, watery nose/eyes etc) but it's just those fucking seizures that scare the hell out of me.. and which keep me from taking 100 instead of 50 mgs...

SpecialGuy69
02-17-2008, 02:22 PM
Saint, I really hope this works for you.

I'm about 14 days behind you, I'm at 15mg/day right now, broken up into 6 X 2.5mg doses (double-splits off 10mg pills). I never in my life imagined I'd be able to maintain on a non-scheduled drug- if this works, it would be amazing for me- I've always imagined I could kick tramadol without even blinking (compared to kickin oxy/dope).

Fuck if this works, I could sell my PM meds for 2 months and buy a GSX-R 750 again!

REVEREND
02-18-2008, 10:46 AM
Hey saint hope yer doin ok.
Ive been taking tramadol fer a year or so.I get get 120 a month and I have never run out.Ive never abused them cause they aren't very fun so takin more than I need is useless to me.
Going from 20mgs too 2mgs is a big step in a week so If you really feel like you need more I wouldn't take a lot of Tramadol I would take a bit more done and see if that helps to get ya through.Don't feel bad or worry bout it too much it takes time fer yer body to get use to such a big drop in mgs.
Also Saint you said that once you get to 0 done you wanted to go up to 300mgs of Tramadol a day.Why do you want to increase yer Tramadol dose after yer off done?
REVEREND

eerased
02-18-2008, 12:10 PM
Hey saint hope yer doin ok.
Ive been taking tramadol fer a year or so.I get get 120 a month and I have never run out.Ive never abused them cause they aren't very fun so takin more than I need is useless to me.
Going from 20mgs too 2mgs is a big step in a week so If you really feel like you need more I wouldn't take a lot of Tramadol I would take a bit more done and see if that helps to get ya through.Don't feel bad or worry bout it too much it takes time fer yer body to get use to such a big drop in mgs.
Also Saint you said that once you get to 0 done you wanted to go up to 300mgs of Tramadol a day.Why do you want to increase yer Tramadol dose after yer off done?
REVEREND


I think he's trying to get the done outta his system. It's much easier to kick pills then done.. I dont understand why he should take more done if that's what he wants outta his system.

If he needed to take maybe 5mg of done to get threw work and all that would be one thing but to up his dose again he would have went threw all this for nothing.
I dont think anyone should Suffer but it is going to be uncomfortable a bit no matter what the situation.
It's the price we pay.. Unfortunately.

Saint when you can, let us know how work went today?? How ya doing?:)

SpecialGuy69
02-18-2008, 12:13 PM
I think he's trying to get the done outta his system. It's much easier to kick pills then done.. I dont understand why he should take more done if that's what he wants outta his system.

If he needed to take maybe 5mg of done to get threw work and all that would be one thing but to up his dose again he would have went threw all this for nothing.
I dont think anyone should Suffer but it is going to be uncomfortable a bit no matter what the situation.
It's the price we pay.. Unfortunately.

Saint when you can, let us know how work went today?? How ya doing?:)saint's a girl.

and I think she wants to up her tram dose to help deal with pain. She needs pain management, but doesnt want the side effects of done anymore

REVEREND
02-18-2008, 12:31 PM
All Im saying is that if the tramadol isn't working enough then I wouldn't just take more.I would take a very small amount of done or something else to get ya through.
It may take awhile fer yer body to get used to tappering that fast and I don't think takin more trams is going to help much.
REVEREND

eerased
02-18-2008, 12:36 PM
opps.. Sorry Saint..

Yea I'm with her upping the trams for pain.. I was just curious as to why Rev said for her to take more done..

REVEREND
02-18-2008, 01:19 PM
I didn't say increase the done butt if yer sick and Tramadol isn't working then taking more tams isn't going to do much.
I would take enough done to not get sick and if that means takin a bit more then 2.5mgs then do it.
Once yer used to 2.5mgs a day then try tappering again butt unless yer in a hurry going slow is the best way

Saint
02-19-2008, 10:10 AM
Ok, I couldn't get online yesterday but here goes: I didn't take any methadone for 3 days now and am taking 250 to 300 mgs of tramadol a day. I DO feel like shit though which is merely caused by the fact that I have to work (sweating, putting napkins under my armpits at work, cold and chickenskinned and hardly any sleep at night). But the worst thing is that I am very nauseaous 24 hours a day. Is that a side-effect of the tramadol? Will it wear off? Because it's fucking annoying.
And I don't feel it's because I'm taking too much because I don't feel much effect from the tramadol otherwise. I know I'd feel much worse without them though...

So you think that going up in (tramadol)dose is useless? I heard that 400 is the maximum amount. Wouldn't I feel at least a little better on 400 mgs? What I don't understand is: tramadols only work only for 4 to 7 hours so when you take 100 mgs once every 7 hours how on earth can you get a seizure? The seizurerisk is at 400 mgs and the first dose is gone once you take the second etc.?
Anyway, I am going to try to stick to no methadone for a while longer and on 300 mgs tramadol but it's hard. Hopefully I will be feeling a little better by next week... keep you posted.


saint's a girl.

and I think she wants to up her tram dose to help deal with pain. She needs pain management, but doesnt want the side effects of done anymore

true

Papa Verine
02-19-2008, 10:39 AM
Hang in there Saint! You would certainly be feeling worse without the Tramadol. In my personal experience with Tramadol, I've experienced some nausea also. Hopefully this wears off so can can continue to kick that methadone. I've also taken much more then 400mgs at a time without any siezures...and I have had siezures in the past from alcohol withdrawl so I know I'm prone to having them.

I just really hope you can get off the methadone. I know it helps A lot of people, and I'm not against it, I just don't see it as a good permanent solution to our dillema as opiate addicts.

Saint
02-19-2008, 10:56 AM
Papa V: 400 mgs at a time, like in one mouthful at once? I have never taken more than 100 mgs at once so far and always wait 7 hours before taking next dose.. maybe I'm being a little bit TOO careful here. I have never ever had a seizure in my life (not even in benzo-WD-s) so I hope I will not get them now.
Had a laugh at work today: someone else is on tramadol and told me how she got soooo fucking spaced out from 25 mgs tramadol (!?). God, I wish that was the case for me..

eerased
02-19-2008, 11:41 AM
Saint,
Up your trammy a bit.. Take it closer together when your feeling like shit. It wont kill you. Maybe just add a bit to each time you dose.
The reason it doesnt last that long is because it's IR and doesnt have that great of a half life.

I think you could safely add a pill or dose every 5 hours until some more of the done gets outta your system..

You should be soooooooo proud of yourself you are doing GREAT.. Hang in there HOn.

Saint
02-19-2008, 12:25 PM
Well thanks Ee! Maybe I should dose every 5 hours instead of 7.
But don't get me wrong: I only want to do this during my worst WD-period which would be approximately 2 weeks (the worst being probably yesterday until next tuesday by experience). Later on I will take it slower.. preferably not more than 250 mgs. If things go well that is. Thanks all for your support. I will post an update later this week.
btw: I do take 10 to 15 mgs of valium since yesterday. I really feel that without the valium it's NO sleep (tried two days without it) and now it's 2 to 3 hours of sleep! Hurray...

nova67
02-19-2008, 04:36 PM
Ok here we go...like i've said in my other posts to you i've been doing these trammies for quite some time and have studied them intensly...so here we go tramadol/ultram 101.

Ive been digging through your posts on here and I think I have found your problem not getting relief or a high from these....so here goes
1.) If you have the 50mg tramadol pills you MUST take more than three of the pills AT ONE TIME to get good relief of pain and start into getting high....thats right you swallow the whole dose at one sitting...you dont space one pill out over a few hours and wait....now onto the seizure subject.

2.) You hit the seizure potential at 450mg yes....but...you have to put this into perspective ok... they are talking about taking 450mg at ONE TIME and even then it is ONLY potential which is the same as saying when you take >>>>>8<<<<< tramadol 50mg pills AT ONE TIME, you have a 25% chance of a seizure....so look at this 25% leaves a whole LOT of people who are NOT having seizures at this dose its not even a half of a good chance of this happening.

3.) since you are feeling like crap you sound completly like you are having WD's.... To give you a case in point, I myself will take 4 of the 50mg pills in one sitting...let me stress that again I take 4 pills at one time, just put all four in my mouth and swallow. And I got a good buzz going within 30-40 minutes after and it will last for about 10hrs...I have a pretty high tolerance for these drugs and im getting high off of four of these, you are just not taking them right, if you want to get good pain relief and even work on getting high you are gonna have to take more than one at a time. My usual spacing is I will take them *4pills* at 7am...and then about 5-7pm I will repeat. Now if you look at the brass tax on that 4 pills at once is only 200mgs at one time which is well under the seizure threshold of 450mg at one time...sometimes to get a really good high I will even go for 5 pills which I explained in the other post over on I Be New Here.

4.) Titration...Well it sure looks like the done is outta your system or is getting very near the point of out...and taking a spaced out measly little 300mg a day aint gonna keep you out of WD's....But if you took three or four of the trams at one time then you wouldn't even notice the dones leaving your system...If i were you I would start at doing three at one time then working your way up from there...I bet you are thinking to yourself, *8 pills a day wow that is 400mgs, am I gonna have a seizure?* The truthfull answer is no...Remember how I told you about tramadols tendency to drop outta your system fast? Well by the time 5pm rolls around you will be more than ready for your next dose, in fact there are days when I hit that time mark and am already getting the restless leg thing and am getting very cold...yeah time to take my meds!

5.) Side effects, WD effects, Effects in general....
I will start with the good points of tramadol, Remember I told you about the taste thing...when you take enough to get you high, about thirty minutes after you take them you should have a funny taste in the back of your mouth, i myself describe it as a very sweet tasting A-1 sauce *you know the stuff you use for steaks* or a sweet worsteshire sauce taste...but my friend who is a vegan-non smoker likens it to a cross between licorice and soy sauce, ive even heard it said it tastes like a penny covered in ketchup on your tounge! :D
But the taste is one indecator of a good high coming up, it is very quickly followed by the warm fuzzy good feeling we all know as an opiate high, tramadol is peculiar though in the fact that that the high covers you whole body...I sure other will agree that when you take say mscontin, or hydros that the high sorta settles either in your head or upper body...but with tramadol you can feel it in your toes and shit...and the energy level is great on these, you can clean your whole house and not be phased, then when they hit the end of their useful life they put you into a peacful nod.
now for side effects and WD experience... The reason you are sick to your stomach is because you are in WD's right now...there is no nasea with trammies, only in overdose situations should you have that while taking them...but here are some you should look for, uncoordination,tingling,taste in mouth *you may not like it*, difficulty reading or actually focusing your eyes...and slowed breathing *back down your dose if you see this*...I already told you about the tendency for this to drop from your system fast...but i will reiterate, it WILL come out of your system very fast, you must be able to do a long taper or at the very least have so higher power meds around to get you off of the trammies and work down on the others, tramadol WILL throw you into seizures if you drop off it like a rock, and always make sure that if you take it before bed you have another dose waiting in the morning, *i wound up seizing on my front porch the first time I had been doing them a long time then nievete said oh I can just deal until i get more....nope you better have a schedule to taper in place...other WD effects are, severe restless leg, agitation and bad mood swings *remember this drug alters your mind like a anti-depressent so it has the same WD effects as both opiates and anti-depressents* I have a little helpfull tip for ya I assume you are a girl, so here is what i do, I always keep a tiny little pill case with me stashed in my bra so if I get caught up somewhere and cant get home I have them with me. :o my case is kinda neat its a collapsable shot glass from an antique bar set! :p
So now you got the basic info on tramadol and i hope this helps ya...and not all internet pharmacies are a rip-off in fact I get most of my supply from them, thats the good thing about tramadol...its not a high scheduled drug so it is not watched soo closely...if you have any questions just ask em and I will be more than happy to answer them for ya.

eerased
02-19-2008, 11:09 PM
I just put my text in red??

Ok here we go...like i've said in my other posts to you i've been doing these trammies for quite some time and have studied them intensly...so here we go tramadol/ultram 101.

Ive been digging through your posts on here and I think I have found your problem not getting relief or a high from these....so here goes
1.) If you have the 50mg tramadol pills you MUST take more than three of the pills AT ONE TIME to get good relief of pain and start into getting high....thats right you swallow the whole dose at one sitting...you dont space one pill out over a few hours and wait....now onto the seizure subject.

2.) You hit the seizure potential at 450mg yes....but...you have to put this into perspective ok... they are talking about taking 450mg at ONE TIME and even then it is ONLY potential which is the same as saying when you take >>>>>8<<<<< tramadol 50mg pills AT ONE TIME, you have a 25% chance of a seizure....so look at this 25% leaves a whole LOT of people who are NOT having seizures at this dose its not even a half of a good chance of this happening.

3.) since you are feeling like crap you sound completly like you are having WD's.... To give you a case in point, I myself will take 4 of the 50mg pills in one sitting...let me stress that again I take 4 pills at one time, just put all four in my mouth and swallow. And I got a good buzz going within 30-40 minutes after and it will last for about 10hrs...I have a pretty high tolerance for these drugs and im getting high off of four of these, you are just not taking them right, if you want to get good pain relief and even work on getting high you are gonna have to take more than one at a time. My usual spacing is I will take them *4pills* at 7am...and then about 5-7pm I will repeat. Now if you look at the brass tax on that 4 pills at once is only 200mgs at one time which is well under the seizure threshold of 450mg at one time...sometimes to get a really good high I will even go for 5 pills which I explained in the other post over on I Be New Here.

I'm not sure she is looking to get high she wants to kick done and maintain her pain!! 4 trams gets you high for 10 hours??????????????? is this really possible?

4.) Titration...Well it sure looks like the done is outta your system or is getting very near the point of out...
NOt even close to out~ She has days if not weeks to go!

and taking a spaced out measly little 300mg a day aint gonna keep you out of WD's....But if you took three or four of the trams at one time then you wouldn't even notice the dones leaving your system... If i were you I would start at doing three at one time then working your way up from there...I bet you a

I think she wants to work down not up.

re thinking to yourself, *8 pills a day wow that is 400mgs, am I gonna have a seizure?* The truthfull answer is no...Remember how I told you about tramadols tendency to drop outta your system fast? Well by the time 5pm rolls around you will be more than ready for your next dose, in fact there are days when I hit that time mark and am already getting the restless leg thing and am getting very cold...yeah time to take my meds!

5.) Side effects, WD effects, Effects in general....
I will start with the good points of tramadol, Remember I told you about the taste thing...when you take enough to get you high, about thirty minutes after you take them you should have a funny taste in the back of your mouth, i myself describe it as a very sweet tasting A-1 sauce *you know the stuff you use for steaks* or a sweet worsteshire sauce taste...but my friend who is a vegan-non smoker likens it to a cross between licorice and soy sauce, ive even heard it said it tastes like a penny covered in ketchup on your tounge! :D
But the taste is one indecator of a good high coming up, it is very quickly followed by the warm fuzzy good feeling we all know as an opiate high, tramadol is peculiar though in the fact that that the high covers you whole body...I sure other will agree that when you take say mscontin, or hydros that the high sorta settles either in your head or upper body...but with tramadol you can feel it in your toes and shit...and the energy level is great on these, you can clean your whole house and not be phased, then when they hit the end of their useful life they put you into a peacful nod.

NOD?? I must be on a different planet?

now for side effects and WD experience... The reason you are sick to your stomach is because you are in WD's right now...there is no nasea with trammies, only in overdose situations should you have that while taking them...but here are some you should look for, uncoordination,tingling,taste in mouth *you may not like it*, difficulty reading or actually focusing your eyes...and slowed breathing *back down your dose if you see this*...I already told you about the tendency for this to drop from your system fast...but i will reiterate, it WILL come out of your system very fast, you must be able to do a long taper or at the very least have so higher power meds around to get you off of the trammies and work down on the others, tramadol WILL throw you into seizures if you drop off it like a rock, and always make sure that if you take it before bed you have another dose waiting in the morning, *i wound up seizing on my front porch the first time I had been doing them a long time then nievete said oh I can just deal until i get more....

Please explain a little detail on what happend here?^^^

nope you better have a schedule to taper in place...other WD effects are, severe restless leg, agitation and bad mood swings *remember this drug alters your mind like a anti-depressent so it has the same WD effects as both opiates and anti-depressents* I have a little helpfull tip for ya I assume you are a girl, so here is what i do, I always keep a tiny little pill case with me stashed in my bra so if I get caught up somewhere and cant get home I have them with me. :o my case is kinda neat its a collapsable shot glass from an antique bar set! :p
So now you got the basic info on tramadol and i hope this helps ya...and not all internet pharmacies are a rip-off in fact I get most of my supply from them, thats the good thing about tramadol...its not a high scheduled drug so it is not watched soo closely...if you have any questions just ask em and I will be more than happy to answer them for ya.

Please dont take any of this the wrong way, I'm not in anyway trying to sound off, but how long have you been taking trams? Addicted? and do they really make you nod?:?

nova67
02-20-2008, 02:14 PM
I just put my text in red??


I'm not sure she is looking to get high she wants to kick done and maintain her pain!! 4 trams gets you high for 10 hours??????????????? is this really possible? Ok, to answer the first part of your question here, SHE asked me how to get high off of these on my own "i be new here" post....and YES you CAN get high off of these, I am able to switch seamlessly between MsContin and other higher power opiate and tramadol...And yes ten hours, i dont dare take another dose until i at LEAST hit eight hours since the last one, when i first was experimenting with these i put doses too close and wound up passing out.


NOt even close to out~ She has days if not weeks to go!
Yes I know she has quite a while till the done is completly out of her system...what i meant was that it was out of its usefull life and she was going into withdrawls because of low dose of tramadol...sorry if i was confusing there, just came back in here and re-read it and thought the same thing myself.

I think she wants to work down not up.
refer to answer one....


NOD?? I must be on a different planet?
Most people dont realize that they are just taking too small a dose, in fact when we dose animals at the vet clinic for pain from surgery and such we give them at least 100mgs or two pills every 6 hrs....when taking 250mgs depending on what else you are taking it is very possible to nod on this stuff...very off label...in fact the regular dose in the medical field is known as a pawn to get people to quit whining about pain at least you are giving them something...i know its harsh but thats what they say....I myself dont joke about pain its been my constant companion for five years, so i will do anything to stop it.

Please explain a little detail on what happend here?^^^
Five years ago when i was first introduced to tramadol, i fiddled around with my dose * my mom has been a CP patient since 1997, and we always have to adjust doses for pain relief on our own, its just a natural family tendency to a high tolerance* In the past I had taken hydros and such and when I would run out i would just deal with WD's till i could get more meds, well I had been doing a 400mg a day course for the past three months when this happened... I ran out early and didnt have money to buy online so when the WD's set in of course i was miserable but i could deal...then my hands started shaking which was soon followed by a *by medical definition* minor seizure *i could still talk* i dont drive so my i called my husband to come get me to take me to the er and had another on my front porch...it was one of the few times i was totally honest at the hospital and they tried a small shot of dilaudid to get it to quit but it took three more to stop it...so lesson learned, "NEVER drop off of tamadol quick!" I never had a problem after that,thats why every six months or so I will have an *accident* to get some other meds to have on hand in case i need them...I feel like an ass when i do this and if i see any kids,elderly people, or anyone bleeding in the er...i just walk out cause i will not take up the time of people that could better use the time of the doctor....


Please dont take any of this the wrong way, I'm not in anyway trying to sound off, but how long have you been taking trams? Addicted? and do they really make you nod?:?
Im not going to take it the wrong way...in fact i welcome criticism and questions, that is how you learn to better yourself :)....i have been taking tramadol for five years now...and before that its cousin ultracet...in fact i've been taking all kinds of opiates since i was about 15yrs old...but tramadol has been a favorite of mine, yes i am addicted to the little buggers...and at present am trying to take something else to distance my body from them a bit...its always good to take a break ya know...and yes in the right dose you CAN nod on tramadol....like i've said before it has a tendency towards acting like an anti-depressent, and just like those dont work for everyone,these dont work for all...its just a matter of right dose and sensetivity...we all find our cup of tea and this happens to be mine, i will always prefer tramadol over anything...but there are your answers i hope the fill some of the gaps...thanks for the questions :)
forgot to add...noding seems to happen at about five pills and above...depending on tolerance...when taking these i always use what i call the hand shake test, you take the dose see if your hands start shaking about thirty minutes after that...if they dont you can go up..if they do dont take anymore than that last amount next time...*it shows you your own personal seizure threshold*

eerased
02-20-2008, 06:58 PM
nova67

i was asking outta curiosity. I KNOW you can get HIGH off of Trammys. That wasnt my question. I missed the post where she ask ya.. Sorry,
in this thread I thought she wanted to lower her dose eventually.. Sorry I missed the post in the other thread. I really cant believe you stay high for 10 hours. You ARE LUCKY!!! I'm jealous!

I cant get a buzz from them anymore but back in the day I was able to catch a 2 hour speed buzz, I use to love that!
I guess with a SUPER low tolerance you could nod but you are definitely the first person I know to nod from trammys.. Again YOU LUCKY DAWG YOU!! I only wish.

I am sorry that you are in so much pain it sux because you are so young. It sounds like you really do make the best of it.. Again I hope I didnt sound stand offish I just never heard of most of this. Now I know.

Dont fret on the er visits. It's the nature of the beast and we got to do what we got to do in order to keep our disease under control. Here we are pretty much all in the same boat or have been at one time or another.

Being a Pill junky for 14 years I've done things that I'm not really proud of but either way I still continue to march on..

Thanks for clearing that all up for me. Saint sorry to hijack your thread!

nova67
02-20-2008, 07:38 PM
Yeah saint sorry but since I know about these so much I just have to enlighten people about them...they've got such a bad rap....ya see I just prefer tram's, my favorites list would be tramadol, hydros *cwe of course*,mscontin 30's, and the patches any of em *they are soo versatile you can use those a number of ways.

I should start my own tramadol thread huh? what do ya think?

Saint
02-21-2008, 09:25 AM
Hi Nova and Eerased. Thanks you so much for posting, it is such a big help! I am now 5 days clean of methadone so at least two more 'sick' weeks to go I guess (I used the tapergraphic that was posted here the other day, but I also know by experience that it takes a hell of a lot of time to start feeling better again, if ever..).
I still have the crawlers nearly all the time, goosebumps, sneezing, HUGE pupils - in fact they are getting bigger by the day, I am at about the worst point now I guess - tearing and still a little nauseous from time to time. But.. I did manage to pull myself to work every day for the past four days and now it's my weekend!! THANK GOD, no work for me untill monday. I'll go crawl into bed and take a bunch of valiums and finally get some sleep maybe.

Yesterday I upped my dose to 350 mgs: 100 mg at 8.00 in the morning - 100 mg at two 'o clock - 100 mg at 7 'o clock and 50 mg before bedtime. But since it's already the fifth day the worst should be over in about ten days (and then come those months of feeling under the weather but not as sick as now I hope) so I rather try and stick it out than go up my dose even more. 400 mgs a day is the max as far as I'm concerned. And I'm gonna take that today.
I'm doing reasonable painwise, I just feel fucking sick, that's all.
Also, I don't need to get high (sure, that would be nice for once but in that case I probably never get off tramadol in the future..).
But maybe you're right, Nova, maybe I should take 200 twice a day instead of spreading it over 4 takes. However to me it doesn't seem to work much longer - if at all - than about 4 hours. But perhaps it lasts longer in higher doses..

My next question is: if this works out - if I manage to switch methadone for tramadol - how on earth will I taper those in the future? I mean: they only last for 4 to 7 hours so how would one go about a taper?
As far as I know the lowest dose is 50 mgs tramadol so maybe one can eventually take 4 x 50 mgs, then go to 3 x 50 mgs spread over the day but then what? A seizure? Are there 25 mg tramadols for instance? Do any of you have experience with tapering tramadol?
The thing is, I can hardly imagine it being so horrible since methadone is obviously a million times stronger!! I know that if I would take as little as 10 mgs methadone right now I would be feeling ten times better but 400 mgs tramadol does so very little.
So how come a tramadol-taper is so hard then?
And any ideas how to go about a tramadoltaper? (sorry for all the questions...)

LorTabitha
02-21-2008, 11:02 AM
As far as I know the lowest dose is 50 mgs tramadol so maybe one can eventually take 4 x 50 mgs, then go to 3 x 50 mgs spread over the day but then what? A seizure? Are there 25 mg tramadols for instance?

I have tapered trams in the past. You sound like you're on the right path. I've found, though, with my particular situation, trams last me a whole day - I do better if I take my entire dose at once. (but I'm strange about stuff like that - my thyroid manages to throw everything off in my body.)

The trams that you're getting - are they pills or capsules? The pills in the US are scored for easy splitting (to make 25s). Also, time release trams are coming on the market. That might help your taper???!

Hang in there - it sounds like you're doing great. :)

Saint
02-21-2008, 11:17 AM
I have tapered trams in the past. You sound like you're on the right path. I've found, though, with my particular situation, trams last me a whole day - I do better if I take my entire dose at once. (but I'm strange about stuff like that - my thyroid manages to throw everything off in my body.)

The trams that you're getting - are they pills or capsules? The pills in the US are scored for easy splitting (to make 25s). Also, time release trams are coming on the market. That might help your taper???!

Hang in there - it sounds like you're doing great. :)

Wow, a whole day? With me 100 mgs lasts about 4 hours and then I start feeling like complete shit! But then again: I was still using 50 mgs of methadone just one month ago and am on 300/350 mgs of tramadol now so feeling bad isn't surprising I guess...

The thing is: I'm doing this whole switch 'illegaly': my doc doesn't know about this switch (yet). She said she didn't have enough knowledge about switching from methadone to tramadol and wanted to send me to a clinic (NO WAY!!).
But if things go well I will have to tell her and then I will ask about the pills as well. Splitting would be perfect ofcourse. But I'm getting the capsules now (from the internet).
Thanks for your support Lortabitha!

nova67
02-22-2008, 05:01 AM
Sorry I've been away today but my mom was having some issues and needed my support...
I am back on my trams, and weaning my mscontin down right now so I dont shock but it should be pretty seamless none the less...but back to the issue at hand... SEE ee im not the only one getting ten hours outta my tram dose! :p But saont yes you can do tapers on trams even though they are fast its just a matter of how you take them in the first place...when not using them to get high...just for pure pain relief i would take this dosing schedule...5-6 *50mg* pills a day and I would take them in what I call *stacks* so lets say with the five pills...(* means pills)
morning-2*
lunch-1*
bedtime-2*
with six 50mg pills a day you just add one to your dose at lunch time.
Now to taper you need to see how many you are taking...350mgs if they are 50mg caps is seven caps a day...if I were you I would take them like this...it will set you up for an even and clean taper
wake up dose-2*
brunch time (11am-ish)-2*
2pm-ish-1*
and bedtime-2*
In my experience it is better to take a larger dose at bedtime...you sleep better and it sets you up right for the morning.
now to taper *that* schedule...
day 1) wake-2*,lunch-2*,X,bed-2*...take out 2pm and move brunch to lunch
day 2) wake-2*,lunch-1*,bed-2*...remove one from lunch
day 3) wake-1*,lunch-1*,bed-2*...think you get the system now
day 4) wake-1*,lunch-1*,bed-1*
day 5) wake-1*,bed-1*
day 6) wake-1*, bed-1/2*
day 7) wake-1*....this is your last day..you wake up with a dose and it will gradually wear off over the day...safe and sound and sane.
so i hope that answered your question...

Saint
02-22-2008, 10:57 AM
Thanks again for your extensive post Nova, I will print it for future times. But first.. see how things go now. I have been on methadone for 25 long years - so that isn't exactly peanuts - but I'm feeling somewhat better today. Still cold and the crawlers but I slept relatively well last night on the same 350 mgs of tramadol a day (I didn't take the 400 after all).
But knowing that methadone takes forever to get out of my system I need to get stabilised first. So no urgent need to taper already since I have barely started on the tramadols..
So I will just keep taking those 350 mgs, maybe 300 whenever I feel up to it. Then, after a few months I might start to think about a taper and will follow your advice.
I'm still nauseous but maybe that has something to do with my IBS...
What surprise me is that the tramadol - like methadone - takes forever to kick in: about 1.5 hours! Now, I do have a slow metabolism so maybe it's just me but I thought that they kicked in after 30 minutes or so.
Anyway, update is: things are going relatively well, considering the circumstances.. so far a lot better than when I switched from methadone to subuxone anyway, that really was a nightmare..

I will keep you posted.

eerased
02-22-2008, 11:35 AM
Thanks again for your extensive post Nova, I will print it for future times. But first.. see how things go now. I have been on methadone for 25 long years - so that isn't exactly peanuts - but I'm feeling somewhat better today. Still cold and the crawlers but I slept relatively well last night on the same 350 mgs of tramadol a day (I didn't take the 400 after all).
But knowing that methadone takes forever to get out of my system I need to get stabilised first. So no urgent need to taper already since I have barely started on the tramadols..
So I will just keep taking those 350 mgs, maybe 300 whenever I feel up to it. Then, after a few months I might start to think about a taper and will follow your advice.
I'm still nauseous but maybe that has something to do with my IBS...
What surprise me is that the tramadol - like methadone - takes forever to kick in: about 1.5 hours! Now, I do have a slow metabolism so maybe it's just me but I thought that they kicked in after 30 minutes or so.
Anyway, update is: things are going relatively well, considering the circumstances.. so far a lot better than when I switched from methadone to subuxone anyway, that really was a nightmare..

I will keep you posted.

Hey Girl, remember when this thread first started and folks said it wouldnt work!! Well looky there! You are doing FANTASTIC!!!! You should be so proud of yourself, you have accomplished a major feat! Pat yourself on the back!! Keep on truckin! You'll be smooth sailing here very soon!!:D:p


As for the Trams lasting for 10 hours I'm guessing everyone is different but I'm willing to bet folks that take trams and it lasts for 10 hours are few and far between. However I envy them and would be elated if a dose a trams would get me through and last 10 hours! Shit I'd probably be able to save enough $$ to buy a car... HAHA:rolleyes:

Saint
02-22-2008, 01:56 PM
Hey Girl, remember when this thread first started and folks said it wouldnt work!! Well looky there! You are doing FANTASTIC!!!! You should be so proud of yourself, you have accomplished a major feat! Pat yourself on the back!! Keep on truckin! You'll be smooth sailing here very soon!!:D:p


Well, we'll see, it's way too early to sing hallelujah (yet) but if I'm ever getting there I will certainly post an update every now and then. Thanks for all your info & support Eerased (and Nova and Lortabitha). Really, means a lot to me.

nova67
02-22-2008, 02:30 PM
Thanks again for your extensive post Nova, I will print it for future times. But first.. see how things go now. I have been on methadone for 25 long years - so that isn't exactly peanuts - but I'm feeling somewhat better today. Still cold and the crawlers but I slept relatively well last night on the same 350 mgs of tramadol a day (I didn't take the 400 after all).
But knowing that methadone takes forever to get out of my system I need to get stabilised first. So no urgent need to taper already since I have barely started on the tramadols..
So I will just keep taking those 350 mgs, maybe 300 whenever I feel up to it. Then, after a few months I might start to think about a taper and will follow your advice.
I'm still nauseous but maybe that has something to do with my IBS...
What surprise me is that the tramadol - like methadone - takes forever to kick in: about 1.5 hours! Now, I do have a slow metabolism so maybe it's just me but I thought that they kicked in after 30 minutes or so.
Anyway, update is: things are going relatively well, considering the circumstances.. so far a lot better than when I switched from methadone to subuxone anyway, that really was a nightmare..

I will keep you posted.

sorry im soo long winded but it helps to be specific in this case cause the last thing you want to do is add to the misery of this world...I put the taper schedule up there for your info so you had it...I know you don't want to drop it yet. that would really really suck for you, especially since the done is still on the retreat and I gotta tell ya from how you describe things, it sounds like you are doing 20X better than most folks coming off it, at the very least the trams are keeping you more comfortable than you would be on sub. I bet in a few more days all these symptoms will let up and you will start feeling pretty good...that stuff does such a number on your mind and body after taking it soo long. Remember how I told you the trams had a tendency to act like an anti-depressent well in that same vein it takes a while to build up in your system...that why it is taking so long to kick in. thats why I explained that you can't do the hand shaking test until at least 30 min and even better at 45...I know they are sooo terribly long in the uptake, but they get there eventually...with the caps i always used to crack em open and put them in a small shot of hot cocoa or coffee and just drink it...it gets rid of the time it takes for the cap to dissolve. Well it good to hear your on the mend...best wishes and keep us posted.:)

Saint
02-22-2008, 03:04 PM
That is a good tip. Since the trammies work very short compared to methadone I can litteraly feel myself getting sicker very fast (after about 6 hours). So pouring the caps in a drink would be a good idea then, better than waiting two hours before feeling slightly better anyway..

To keep things in perspective: I am taking benzo's on the side (10 mgs valium for sleepdaily and on really bad days 10 mgs of serax at daytime). Without them I would be lost because I really need some sleep to be able to drag my ass to work every day. But so far I don't have a tendency of abusing benzo's and always taper gradually over a few weeks once the worst part is over. So I think it's allowed.. for now anyway.. better no methadone and a few benzo's for a while than having to take methadone for the rest of my life..

nova67
02-22-2008, 05:20 PM
That is a good tip. Since the trammies work very short compared to methadone I can litteraly feel myself getting sicker very fast (after about 6 hours). So pouring the caps in a drink would be a good idea then, better than waiting two hours before feeling slightly better anyway..

To keep things in perspective: I am taking benzo's on the side (10 mgs valium for sleepdaily and on really bad days 10 mgs of serax at daytime). Without them I would be lost because I really need some sleep to be able to drag my ass to work every day. But so far I don't have a tendency of abusing benzo's and always taper gradually over a few weeks once the worst part is over. So I think it's allowed.. for now anyway.. better no methadone and a few benzo's for a while than having to take methadone for the rest of my life..

Yeah I hear ya...benzos have never done anything spectacular for me except help me sleep some times...but thats me. Now im coming down off the mscontin, my muscles are shaking...I have low blood sugar issues and for some reason EVERY time i come off of morphine, my blood sugar drops..and I shake like a little toy poodle. but other than that I really have no effects going on in the way of withdrawl...for some reason...to my body...an opiate is an opiate, and though some may be stronger, or quicker, as long as I have one in my system...I have no real withdrawl, from what I have seen here im damn lucky in that.But yeah...what i do is get a little bitty essprsso cup and make some hot cocoa in another coffe mug, then pour some in the little cup * the smaller cup keeps it from getting stuck to the sides and is easier to gulp down*...then I dump the cap in, stir with coffee stirrer and down it. much easier and quicker uptake.

Saint
02-22-2008, 05:23 PM
I just saw what the misunderstanding was all about: in Nova67's thread I posted:

Hi nova67, welcome aboard.
I just started tramadol myself. If you don't mind me asking how much do YOU need to get high? I quit methadone and switched to tramadol and all it does is take the edge of withdrawals, not the slightest high (which is logical coming of methadone). I don't take anyhting over 250 mgs so far, afraid of the seizurething...

What I meant was: how much do (and I should have written that in Italic) YOU need to feel a high - considering that she is using the stuff for a long time - so that I can more or less figure out what would be too low or too high a dose for me coming of 20 mgs of methadone. I didn't mean to say that I want to try and get wasted from the tramadol. I was merely looking for some indication of what different doses do for people.
But reading it back it doesn't sound that way, sorry! I'm a bit clumsy at times. (like writing 'chickenskin' instead of 'goosebumps', haha, dumb). But I'm not a native speaker...so please excuse my English.

Any answers on the travel issue? Can I travel freely with tramadol? If anyone knows the answer I'd appreciate it because I tried to get permits for Indonesia, Zambia and a few other countries and could NOT officially get in with methadone. Regulations for methadone vary from country to country. Is that the case with tramadol too? I am really hoping that things will be different on tramadol.....

Mod: I couldn't edit my post above anymore? So please merge if needed.

nova67
02-23-2008, 02:04 AM
Hey saint....found a site with info on traveling abroad with meds...it has a link to the state department which should help answer your question...here ya go.
http://www.smartertravel.com/travel-advice/travel-abroad-with-prescription.html?id=16123

Dear Editor,

What are your recommendations for traveling abroad with prescription medications?

- Reader

Dear Reader,
The U.S. Department of State (http://travel.state.gov/travel/tips/safety/safety_1747.html) recommends that you keep your medications in their original containers with the proper labels and bring copies of your prescriptions to avoid trouble with customs officers and other officials. The prescription should note the brand and generic name of the drug. You should also contact the embassy or consulate of the country you're visiting to find out if it's legal to bring your particular medication into the country. If you're taking an unusual drug or drugs that contain narcotics such as sedatives, you should carry a note from your doctor explaining what the medication is and why you need it.

Saint
02-23-2008, 02:50 AM
Thanks again Nova. I'm on day 6 with no methadone. I feel reasonable, considering... only a little nauseous and very little sleep. Some hot/cold sweats but not all the time. As long as I'm taking it easy (don't have to work for 2 days) it's doable. I'm taking shitloads of vitamines and still one valium daily for sleep. According to the tapergraphic all methadone should be out of my blood/body somewhere between 10 and 30 march (!)

Saint
02-24-2008, 04:20 AM
O.k., day 7 without methadone and ON 300 mgs of tramadol. I'm sneezing all the time and lost 2 kilo's (which is good ;-). Thank god for valium because it helps me sleep. I'm still sweaty and cold etc. probably will be for a few more weeks but it's all doable.

Now, I was just reading this other forum about tramadol and it seems like there is a lot of mis-information going on. People were actually advising other tramadol users there to switch to methadone to taper of the stuff. WTF? And there were people putting up a petition to report tramadol to the DEA in order to make it a controlled substance. Thanks a lot idiots, damnit!
I finally found a medication that enables me to travel (since I can't with methadone in general) and now all those whiners (most of whom were taking way too much trammies to begin with, like 20 pills a day, are starting to piss and moan about how difficult tramadol is to get off and how it should be reported to the feds and how people should take methadone to taper of! Methadone!!! That's ridiculous. That is like advising someone with a minor alcohol problem to drink a bottle of brandy every day to keep the shakes away.

Seriously: anybody knows if there is any chance that tramadol will become a controlled substance? God, I would be so pissed if that happens. 300 mgs feels like an aspirin to me coming from methadone..

Mallinckrodt
02-24-2008, 11:54 AM
O.k., day 7 without methadone and ON 300 mgs of tramadol. I'm sneezing all the time and lost 2 kilo's (which is good ;-). Thank god for valium because it helps me sleep. I'm still sweaty and cold etc. probably will be for a few more weeks but it's all doable.

Now, I was just reading this other forum about tramadol and it seems like there is a lot of mis-information going on. People were actually advising other tramadol users there to switch to methadone to taper of the stuff. WTF? And there were people putting up a petition to report tramadol to the DEA in order to make it a controlled substance. Thanks a lot idiots, damnit!
I finally found a medication that enables me to travel (since I can't with methadone in general) and now all those whiners (most of whom were taking way too much trammies to begin with, like 20 pills a day, are starting to piss and moan about how difficult tramadol is to get off and how it should be reported to the feds and how people should take methadone to taper of! Methadone!!! That's ridiculous. That is like advising someone with a minor alcohol problem to drink a bottle of brandy every day to keep the shakes away.

Seriously: anybody knows if there is any chance that tramadol will become a controlled substance? God, I would be so pissed if that happens. 300 mgs feels like an aspirin to me coming from methadone..

This is the whole problem in this world. Totally misinformed population, listening to whatever bullshit the slobs in power tell them. If there wasn't so much damn misinformation going around about all drugs, and we were all actually given the facts and also the chance to make our own decisions about what we put in our bodies, most of these problems wouldn't exist.

Must be nice. . .Whenever 'law enforcement' needs more work, they can just spread propaganda about the new drug hitting the streets making white girls horny for evil colored men and then. . . .a multi-million dollar budget, thousands of ruined lives and destroyed families later, they have a nice 401K and even money to send Johnny to school so he can do it all over again. And all from our tax dollars.

Sad state of affairs.

By the way, when i first saw this thread about going from the 'done to trams, I was thinking 'no way!' But now i Must say, I am impressed how well you are doing, not that I think you are not a strong person or anything, just speaking purely from my own personal experience with both drugs, it just didn't seem doable. Keep up the good work, your receptors will thank you. Thanks for showing me it is possible too.

sweetpain
02-24-2008, 12:07 PM
Don't know about your experiences with Tramadol, but that crap made me naseus when I took more than prescribed. Good luck. Hope it helps for you, but really don't know how it is going to help with your pain. It didn't with mine even tho I too 3x the normal dosage.

nova67
02-24-2008, 01:57 PM
Hey there....yeah I know, when they can't get high off of it anymore without possibly killing themselves in OD or a gran mal seizure they bitch to put it on a higher schedule! WTF is absolutely right.....I mean It wasn't too terribly long ago that it was dropped in its schedule...and that was based on the fact that, over a thousand different studies said that in normal doses it posses little risk of addiction. The miss-information is absolutely insane...you go to one site they say "well it doesn't do shit...toss it aside" and in another "it is the devils drug...we have to stop it!" Just like its effects range the board person to person...so do its opinions...and saint if you could possibly give a link to that site about coming off of tramadol with methadone I would really like to be able to enlighten folks that they will be throwing themselves from the frying pan, into the fire! Talk about a TRULY addictive drug, I mean look at the folks on here...some say that methadone is even bad when coming from heroin to it. And that it is more addictive than heroin...I mean If they want a true and unbiased opinion on these drugs the best place to go is to those who use it! If it wasn't for the fact of privacy and being able for its members to feel safe I would send more folks the way of Opi for they're own good. But its really great that you are feeling a bit better everyday...and at least you are not one of those poor souls who will be hurt by ignorance.

eerased
02-24-2008, 02:18 PM
Even in this thread ppl said it wasnt possible to go from done to tram. I think some folks really believe that if it happened like that for them then it's gonna be like that for everyone else!

EVERYBODY IS DIFFERENT!!!

No matter how much ppl claim to know there is always something to be learned. If we (general population of earth) would spend half as much time listening instead of talking we would know a lot more!!

I was on methadone on 2 separate occasions. Once 80mg a day and once 110mg a day.. I've came off of oxy, and many other pain killers and nothing but nothing was like coming off of done! This doesnt mean that sally down the street didnt have a harder time coming off of loratabs than she did done! Each person is different.

Another ex.. I had an abscess tooth same tooth more than once! Had ibuprofen 800s finally I broke and went to the dentist he scibed 7.5 vicodin, They did less for the pain then the prophens.. Next time went to the er (Sunday) The bitch gave me Trams!! They killed the toothache and gave me a lil speedy buzz.
Point in the case of my toothache the trams worked better than the vicodin..

Right now I'm up to anywhere from 120-240 mgs of oxy and I still have a terrible backache from moving my neighbors shit.. Oxy wont touch it! Ibuprofen helps it!

It's weird shit..

Sorry for rambling I'm feeling fuzzy..

Saint, I cant say congrats enough.. You have to be one strong cookie to accomplish what you are doing right now!! Keep going girl you wont regret it!!

nova67
02-25-2008, 01:37 AM
hey EE i think we can agree that with almost all opiate drugs...every human being has a different experience of them...we as human beings are soo different, that even the drugs we take will all affect us differently...In my most recent research, i was reading how a couple schools are doing studies on people to see if some are born with fewer pleasure receptors...leading to the person with less having a higher likelyhood of addiction, mental disease and pain perception. There are similar items to each person of how a drug works or they wouldnt market them for use for a given purpose... Methadone for some reason really works well for pain...but IMO it is the most addictive drug...herion would be one down from that on my list. that is why when we find something that we like..that works for us the way we want..and we can get it regularly...we covet that source and defend it being taken away..thats why we all have such a violent reaction to the law enforcement of this country when they decide without the peoples opinion to take something away or make it harder to get.
Thank god tramadol...as it sits right now...is not being looked at for higher scheduling...but if it ever does go up for that...i will fight it tooth and nail. this is a real success story for the transition from done to tramadol. but I still think if you want some good pain relief and to be a little better off with the WD's you should go up to 350-400mg a day...you have been on the dose you are now plenty of time that it has a chance to build into your system saint...so you wont be shocked by a dose increase...also that is a very small dose you are on now...when my nephew broke his leg he was put on 400mg by the doctor after it was casted and he was only 12...so if that dose is ok for a kid..i think it would be fine for you. was talkin with my moms and her doc *did not mention site or your screen name, just genral chit-chat..."I have a friend" kinda stuff" But of course that is up to you.

Saint
02-25-2008, 10:07 AM
True, we all have different reactions to different drugs. I for one couldn't stand subuxone: it only increased my pain and I felt like complete shit on the stuff. Never ever am I going to try that again!

I am now on day 8 (or 9?) without methadone. So far I have NEVER exceeded the 350 mgs tramadol a day dose. That is not to say that things are going smoothly because I do feel sick more or less all the time but it's definitely not as bad as I thought it would be. I sleep more or less o.k. on 10 mgs valium (some days even on 5 mgs) and have not taken over 10 valium mgs a day so far either.

I do sleep very, very restless: I wake up about every other hour but at least I finally get an average of about 5 to 6 hours of sleep.
The most annoying thing is the nausea. But I'm wondering whether that has anything to do with the tramadol. It might be the other way around: often I start feeling nauseous once the tramadol has left my body (4 to 7 hours). But considering I'm using this for only a little over a week it might disappear with time. Or it might have something to do with my IBS.

There is one other WD-symptom that tramadol doesn't help much for: goosebumps and crawlers. I am icy cold all the time. At home I put my heater on 25 degrees (celsius that is, I don't know what that is in fahrenheit ;-) as soon as I'm in. But at my job I'm absolutely freezing my nauseous ass off!

I also changed my schedule: I start with 150 mgs tramadol in the morning (which is the largest amount I have taken in 'one take' so far) and although there is no buzz whatsoever it does give me just enough energy to get myself ready for work. It also seems to last longer in higher doses. 100 mgs tramadol at once lasted only for about 4 to 5 hours but 150 mgs will last me about 7. After that I start tearing up a little and feel sick(er) again.

So now it's:
150 mgs about 8.00 in the morning
100 mgs at about 15.00/16.00-ish in the afternoon (if I can stand it that long)
100 mgs before bedtime + 10 mgs of valium

Yesterday I actually managed to clean up my house a little after taking the 150 mgs in the morning. Which is a major accomplishment since I had not been doing anything but laying in bed with 4 covers over me all weekend..
But we'll see what happens. I have tapered methadone many times before and things went all perfect until all of a sudden my body 'broke down' or something and I started getting major muscle and stomachproblems & anxiety.. it always went wrong on that very same thing. So I can only pray things will work out differently this time..

eerased
02-25-2008, 10:15 AM
I dont really follow research I"m speaking of my own trials and experience..

I dont know why she would change something that is working for her!!!! She is doing it at the dose she's at.. It makes NO sense to up the dose if she can handle it this way! You dont have to take the maximum dose~!!

Have you really ever went threw done withdraw? besides running outta pills for a few days have you been through w/d from any long lasting pain killer?? YOu want to stay at as low of a dose as possible!! anyway I really would just rather keep up with her and her done to trammy w/d diary! I just wanted to say there is no reason to up something that is working!! Save it for when you have to move up in dose!



EDIt,
We must have been typing at the same time..LOL
Good job girl keep it up..
Try to hold off as long as you can from upping your tram dose.
You may have to you may not! But once you go up it's real hard to come back down!

and as always
keep on keeping on you are doing great!!

Saint
02-25-2008, 10:23 AM
I dont really follow research I"m speaking of my own trials and experience..

I dont know why she would change something that is working for her!!!! She is doing it at the dose she's at.. It makes NO sense to up the dose if she can handle it this way! You dont have to take the maximum dose~!!

Have you really ever went threw done withdraw? besides running outta pills for a few days have you been through w/d from any long lasting pain killer?? YOu want to stay at as low of a dose as possible!! anyway I really would just rather keep up with her and her done to trammy w/d diary! I just wanted to say there is no reason to up something that is working!! Save it for when you have to move up in dose!



EDIt,
We must have been typing at the same time..LOL
Good job girl keep it up..
Try to hold off as long as you can from upping your tram dose.
You may have to you may not! But once you go up it's real hard to come back down!

and as always
keep on keeping on you are doing great!!

Like you said: I really do not want to up my dose. I'd rather wait and see if I can hold on to 350 mgs max. The more I take the more I have to taper off some day... And: if my pain does increase in the future I'd like to have the option of taking a little more without coming too close to the seizure-risk.

Nate
02-25-2008, 10:35 AM
Wow Saint your doing great!! Keep it up!

eerased
02-25-2008, 11:25 AM
Like you said: I really do not want to up my dose. I'd rather wait and see if I can hold on to 350 mgs max. The more I take the more I have to taper off some day... And: if my pain does increase in the future I'd like to have the option of taking a little more without coming too close to the seizure-risk.


Yep that's exactly what I meant! someday you may have to up your dose to control your pain and you don't want to be at a such a high dose that you cant add some to help pain control.. Your doing great! I think this is such a great example for folks to know that it's not impossible to do something that sounds so impossible to some!

again,
YOU GO GIRL!!:p

Saint
02-25-2008, 11:34 AM
Thanks Nate, Eerased, Nova, Mallinckrodt and the rest for the support. It does help. Like I said, there is no way of knowing yet if this switch is going to work in the longterm.. but we'll see. I will keep you posted.

By the way, this is the site:

http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-drugs/ultram-ultracet-tramadol-22123-5.html

The post about using methadone in order to quit tramadol is on page 7:

I quote a part of the post I was talking about (my comments are in red):

However, tapering (tramadol) is not for everyone and it is very difficult to commit to if addicted...THERE ARE OTHER OPTIONS! There is a medication called *Suboxone* that you can take that is specifically tailored to those getting off of opiates/tramadol.
There is another way to get off of Tramadol...if you live in a city with a methadone (http://www.drugs.com/methadone.html) clinic you can go through their methodone taper program which can be easier than going off Tramadol (???????? Methadone WD's are hell and last forever!). However, educate yourself and talk with your doctor before doing this (or using Suboxone) because some people end up addicted to the methadone. (only smart sentence in the post)

I am NOT a doctor (ain't that a surprise), just someone who has amassed info online through my own research so do your homework. I hope this information can help some of you get free from Tramadol... (and ON subuxone and/or methadone..) I have walked that dark path.

nova67
02-25-2008, 04:51 PM
Ok...first off saint...I am soo glad you are continuing to do well...and keep it up! Those poor souls, that have taken that idotic and dangerous advice, to quit trammies for methadone...my heart goes out to them. And EE to answer your post...yes I myself have been on and gone through an extensive WD's from methadone...I was locked in my bedroom by my sadistic step father...and made to come down without so much as a tylenol to help me...I almost died, and when he came into feed me one night he had pity on me..and took me to the hospital thats why I vowed never again...and do whatever I can to save people from that hell. As I included in the end of my last post "but that of course, is up to you." I was making a recommendation based on a discussion i had with people I trusted for information. I know you are not trying to bust my chops EE...just showing it was only making a suggestion. She has to make her own disscisions based on what works for her...and her own situation. Another thing, I did not say that the seizure threshold was 400mg a DAY...I said it was 450mg a DOSE...that means taking 9pills at one time and you would hit the threshold. If it were 400mg a day I would be dead...I take about 400-500mg a day. That is eight pills a day...WELL under the dangerous dose. And that dose is not to get high that is to treat my severly deteriated spine. To be able to switch between a higher power drug...and tramadol, like I am doing right now...*going from 120mg chewed mscontin a day...back into my tramadol* This dose of trams im on right now...and is what I have always taken since I found it worked best for *me* seems to allow for a seamless transition...and if gently brought down 50mgs a day it can be tapered wisely and safely. I am going to stress...that is what works for me....and no one is in any way being pressured to follow this schedule or my advice...it is just that a suggestion. I know what a bitch every day to wake up in pain...and this is what I do to control it well. My doctor has signed off on this regime, and that is why I never run out any more...because I have found that perfect fit. I was just thinking that since my own doctor had approved the dose...my mothers doctor had approved the dose...and my mom *a CP patient, and also takes tramadol* has no problem with it...it might be good to let saint know... I did find a new tip for saint though...tramadol absorbtion is NOT affected by what you eat like hydros and other opiates are...if you are feeling naseas...eat a little snack before taking the trams...if they are giving you any problems, the snack should solve it. And what you describe...about them working longer in higher doses is correct in my experience...they last much longer...and provide for better management...what I do is take four pills in the morning...and four around 5-7pm....thats whats been working great for me, and allows me to function like a person. So now lets get back to love...peace...and chickin grease...and watching saint improve and transition better than most of orginally thought possible :) :) :)

Saint
02-26-2008, 08:36 AM
Yep, I thought of that and now I eat a little something before dosing, like a banana or yoghurt or whatever light snack there is available. It's 16.20 in the afternoon and I took 150 mgs at 9.00 this morning and only now I'm starting to feel icy and weak.
I got a huge amount of groceries yesterday that weighed about 15 kilos (had to drag them home and to the fourth flour) and have some muscle-aches from that now. Like always, when kicking, I seem to develop muscle-aches way faster than I normally do, over the most minute exercise even but it's nothing major.
In fact, I feel a lot better today than I did yesterday. I don't know why, I'm even having my period now which always sucks as you probably know... but apart from a little tummy-ache and some lower backpain things are going better than a while ago.
I did take the afternoon off from work because I want to take it easy for a while. My body is more important than my boss or my income.. I can do without the stress.

As usual, WD-s come with ups and downs, one moment you think you're doing fine, that you're almost there, the next day you feel like shit again. But on the average there is some improvement here.
I have another question for you Nova: say things keep going well and I get stabilised on 350 mgs a day, then use it for another month and go down to 300 mgs. Would I feel a major difference then? I mean: I know that going down from 20 to 15 mgs of methadone can be very, very hard. It's only a tiny 5 mgs but the difference can be huge. More often than not it took me weeks to adjust to a dose-decrease with methadone.
I know this too probably differs from person to person but I'm curious how badly a 50 mgs tramadol decrease would affect me after being on the stuff for say 6 weeks/2 months. So I will be prepared mentally..
Sorry for all the questions.. and thanks for all the info again!

Nate
02-26-2008, 08:42 AM
Your doing great Girl! :party::music1:Go Girl Go!:music2::hangloose:jumping-s


Hope I made you smile!

Saint
02-26-2008, 09:08 AM
Well Nate, you did! My first smile of the day..
Thanks for that.

Nate
02-26-2008, 09:11 AM
Np, I know the smiles are few and far apart but everytime it helps:o

You are an inspiration girl.

nova67
02-26-2008, 03:39 PM
Yep, I thought of that and now I eat a little something before dosing, like a banana or yoghurt or whatever light snack there is available. It's 16.20 in the afternoon and I took 150 mgs at 9.00 this morning and only now I'm starting to feel icy and weak.
I got a huge amount of groceries yesterday that weighed about 15 kilos (had to drag them home and to the fourth flour) and have some muscle-aches from that now. Like always, when kicking, I seem to develop muscle-aches way faster than I normally do, over the most minute exercise even but it's nothing major.
In fact, I feel a lot better today than I did yesterday. I don't know why, I'm even having my period now which always sucks as you probably know... but apart from a little tummy-ache and some lower backpain things are going better than a while ago.
I did take the afternoon off from work because I want to take it easy for a while. My body is more important than my boss or my income.. I can do without the stress.

As usual, WD-s come with ups and downs, one moment you think you're doing fine, that you're almost there, the next day you feel like shit again. But on the average there is some improvement here.
I have another question for you Nova: say things keep going well and I get stabilised on 350 mgs a day, then use it for another month and go down to 300 mgs. Would I feel a major difference then? I mean: I know that going down from 20 to 15 mgs of methadone can be very, very hard. It's only a tiny 5 mgs but the difference can be huge. More often than not it took me weeks to adjust to a dose-decrease with methadone.
I know this too probably differs from person to person but I'm curious how badly a 50 mgs tramadol decrease would affect me after being on the stuff for say 6 weeks/2 months. So I will be prepared mentally..
Sorry for all the questions.. and thanks for all the info again!

hey Saint....50mgs in the tramadol dose really doesn't make much of a difference...the only real thing you will notice is that you will need to take your next dose sooner...but if you put the drop in the middle of the day...then you wont even bat an eyelash. See what I mean about stacking the dose a little heavier in the AM...it stays with you longer...and it provides better pain relief *you are having your time of the month, and barely noticing* You also did a pretty good job of over extending yourself...can you imagine what it would be like with a really low dose of trammies or none at all? *god forbid...I shudder at that thought* but with trammies taking out 50mg a day really is not a big deal..in fact the doctor recomended drop is 50mg at a time but in the middle of the day so as to not start or end the day on a low note. You sound like you are doing great...and if I were you I would keep up that morning stack...I believe that is why you are feeling better...then when you feel like it you can take one out of that morning stack to pull the 50mg off a day that you want. You are doing wonderful girl...:D

Saint
02-28-2008, 10:26 AM
Thanks Nova. I know I'm being a pain in the ass here but I have another question for anyone who has experience with tramadol: I know one builds up a tolerance to tramadol but.. is that a tolerance painwise (meaning that one needs to take more and more to fight the same pain) or is it a tolerance in the sense that I need to take more - eventually - in order to NOT get (dope)sick?
Or worse: is it both..?
Say, I would start to feel more or less *normal* on 350 mgs a day in a few weeks. Can I just stay on that same those or will I get dopesick as soon as my body has build up a tolerance to that specific dose of tramadol? Meaning that I'd need to take more and more only not to get sick. I can't imagine that would be the case...

With methadone the tolerance was (for me at least) only applying if I wanted to get high on it: I would get a high in the beginning on say 40 mgs but after 3 to 4 months I'd need three times that much to get a buzz. But apart from the high-thing I was able to take the same amount for years and years without feeling much of a difference, even painwise..

Update: according to my taper-down excellsheet I still have about 0.10 mgs of methadone in my body (counting by a halflife of 30 hours). Which is as good as nothing ofcourse but I can also feel that it's as good as nothing... I guess it's very hard on my poor old body to adjust to a different med once again..
Just one more week and it's zero done inside..
I'm still very weak, sleepless nights etc and battling with the cold but it's not unbearable. I'd give it a 5.5 on the 'feel sick scale'. (Normally I'd be a 1 or 2 by now).
So I'll just keep on trucking, see how things go during the coming weeks or maybe even months (?)....

nova67
02-28-2008, 03:35 PM
Ya know saint...we should ask a mod to change the name of the post to "Methadone to Tramadol...diary/guide to successful transition"...cause you seem like you are just truckin right along here...way to go....

As for the tolerance issue...and this is purely from my own reactions....I have only seen a tolerance...when it comes to getting high...but not in a pain covering form....and I have been taking this for five years...so I shoulda noticed something by now....but for the most part, what I have done in the past couple years as a just in case measure...is switch to another med, and use it for a bit to kinda distance myself...but no longer than a month...then it is right back to the trammies...but I got to tell ya, when im on the tramadol I have a much better mood and mental mindset...it just basicaly makes me feel happier because of the way it also acts as a anti-depressant too. so when I make the switch...it causes a mood drop, but I want to make sure im not pushing myself closer to the seizure threshold ya know..I haven't even got close to taking nine pills at a time....but it is still good to just give yourself a break and make sure it never happens...hey saint I can't PM yet...so if ya want, I have a compiled sorta pamphlet on tramadol and everything it does...dosing and taper info...plus effects and such...I use it as a patient leaflet at the vet clinic...but I can change the doses to reflect the human dosages...it is basically a collection of all the info I found online for the drug..put into a readable and usable form...we have alot of dogs with cancer or arthritis that come in so the main vet had me put it together. tramadol is brand new in the vet field... so all the info is based on the human trials and clinical reports...so shoot me a PM if you want it. I am really glad that you are almost outta the woods so to speak...keep up the good work, and best wishes for continued recovery...

eerased
02-29-2008, 12:03 AM
Update: according to my taper-down excellsheet I still have about 0.10 mgs of methadone in my body (counting by a halflife of 30 hours). Which is as good as nothing ofcourse but I can also feel that it's as good as nothing... I guess it's very hard on my poor old body to adjust to a different med once again..
Just one more week and it's zero done inside..
I'm still very weak, sleepless nights etc and battling with the cold but it's not unbearable. I'd give it a 5.5 on the 'feel sick scale'. (Normally I'd be a 1 or 2 by now).
So I'll just keep on trucking, see how things go during the coming weeks or maybe even months (?)....

If you ask me.. YOU ARE SUPERWOMAN!! You should be so proud of you!! I know I am!

Saint
02-29-2008, 07:27 AM
Ya know saint...we should ask a mod to change the name of the post to "Methadone to Tramadol...diary/guide to successful transition"...cause you seem like you are just truckin right along here...way to go....

As for the tolerance issue...and this is purely from my own reactions....I have only seen a tolerance...when it comes to getting high...but not in a pain covering form....and I have been taking this for five years...so I shoulda noticed something by now....but for the most part, what I have done in the past couple years as a just in case measure...is switch to another med, and use it for a bit to kinda distance myself...but no longer than a month...then it is right back to the trammies...but I got to tell ya, when im on the tramadol I have a much better mood and mental mindset...it just basicaly makes me feel happier because of the way it also acts as a anti-depressant too. so when I make the switch...it causes a mood drop, but I want to make sure im not pushing myself closer to the seizure threshold ya know..I haven't even got close to taking nine pills at a time....but it is still good to just give yourself a break and make sure it never happens...hey saint I can't PM yet...so if ya want, I have a compiled sorta pamphlet on tramadol and everything it does...dosing and taper info...plus effects and such...I use it as a patient leaflet at the vet clinic...but I can change the doses to reflect the human dosages...it is basically a collection of all the info I found online for the drug..put into a readable and usable form...we have alot of dogs with cancer or arthritis that come in so the main vet had me put it together. tramadol is brand new in the vet field... so all the info is based on the human trials and clinical reports...so shoot me a PM if you want it. I am really glad that you are almost outta the woods so to speak...keep up the good work, and best wishes for continued recovery...


I can't pm you either! But we can save that for future times. You'll be able to pm soon enough if you keep on posting. So you work in the 'vet field'? That must be such an interesting job! I love animals, nature, biology...
About the dose: I will just stay on the same dose for at least another two months since I'm by no means out of the woods yet. Hopefully I can bring it down a bit once spring sets in here in ..winy Europe. The sweating and at the same time the bloody cold and shivers are driving me crazy. But my feelings are coming back, not only the positive ones, also the melancholic ones, but at least I'm feeling something. My love for music is back too...

Eerased, thank you as well for your support, it's what helps me get through the day.. reading things like that..

nova67
02-29-2008, 09:15 AM
Yeah I love animals too...my whole life since I was like seven years old has been dedicated to them...plus the nice thing is that since the vet is cool....sometimes she will fill a trammie script in one of my dogs names *we fill in house*...pretty nice connect when I need it...yeah I think what you are doing is working just fine...you know what I do when I get that cold shakey crap I went out and bought a thick fuzzy robe...it helps to warm you up...but you can still move around and do stuff...wow you are doing great hun...isn't it great when you finally get your emotions back...its like being a kid again just experiencing things again...keep up the good work

:party:

Saint
03-01-2008, 10:48 AM
Day 13. Still on 350 mgs tramadol. Feel a little less cold but I have freaking headache (maybe I had too much to drink last night, about 6? Normally it doesn't have that much effect on me the next day. Well, never drink more than 2 to 3 beers when in WD-s..I guess). Still feel extremely weak and not capable of doing anything much when I'm not working but whatever. Little sleep sucks too. But one day at a time. Once spring sets in I'll try and go down to 300 , maybe 250. See if I can handle it painwise.
Cool job Nova, getting your scripts filled at work... lucky you!

nova67
03-01-2008, 06:40 PM
I never used to have hangovers until I started doing trammies....I think its cause I wont mix pills and booze *had a cousin that died that way* so the whole time im drinking I wont touch em...so I am in slight withdrawls...and because my body just literally soaks up any alcohol to replace lost dopamine...it leaves you with a headache...until I get my body back into my dosing schedule....but that is me...went out and had a few drinks last night *havent drank in ages* and my head is pounding...know how ya feel.

Saint
03-02-2008, 07:37 AM
0.48 mgs of methadone left in my body. I just weighed myself and saw that I have lost about 5 to 6 kilo's during those last two weeks! It's amazing how WD's/a taper will make you loose weight. I'm not even doing any sports right now since I feel way to weak for anything physical and I force myself to eat 3 times a day but it's still just melting away.. My constipation is gone a 100% too, guess that's the reason for the weightloss since I didn't change my eatinghabits.

My god, what an godawful longlasting shit methadone is. I still sneeze, I'm still cold and it seems like it's taking forever for things to improve, although they DO improve but it's all going sooooooo damn slowly. Ofcourse I've got nothing to complain since it has been a lousy two weeks since I quit the done but I really wish it was a sunny day in june and I were stabilised on 100 to 200 mgs of tramadol. If I'd accomplish that some day I'd be happy as fuck!
I can live with having to take a small dose of tramadol for the rest of my life but it seems like a long, looong way to get there.
Weekend is over, my stomach and muscles hurt but at least the done will be out of my system in a week or so.. I'm hoping to cut the trammies down to 300 a day by the end of march..

Raz
03-02-2008, 07:44 AM
I wouldnt fuckin sweat on nothin!!

From what you;ve just gotten off of, and the years you've been usin!!! I would just take one day at a fuckin time, dont sweat nothin girl...You;ve shown more balls than any guy gettin off this meth shit....So whatever ya gotta do to keep class A shit outta ya system i wouldnt sweat...

Ya done good in my book....

Nate
03-02-2008, 12:30 PM
You CAN do it!! Alllll night long, oh yeah!

Haha, whoops, keep on fighting girl, your doing great!

Duckfeet
03-02-2008, 02:32 PM
Way to go, Saint: I just logged back on, and came over to mdone to see what u were up to: I never had any luck w/tramadol...but I really support you in doing anything that'll help u get of mdone. I had got off it about a month or so ago, but it was cuz I'd bumped into my old heroin connect, so a gram a day of tar wasn't really an improvement, and really nailed me money-wise....so I swapped to free clinic over here, which meant 'fessing up to V.A. that I was addict, so they would pay...but interestingly enough, my doc freaked out that I was doing all these nasty drugs, and called turned me over to pharmacy honcho, who actually said--since I have legit pain--that he was willing to put me on methadone for *pain* if I would sign "the contract" and take random piss tests and shit, so I had nothing to loose, said sure...Most vets cannot get on methadone at hospital, and have to sign up at clinic, and go to groups, and our regular doc is notified that we are junkys, etc....

At the same time, when I got off tar a couple of weeks ago, and got back on mdone, I managed to stay down at 35mg, and have now dropped to 30mg daily, so I'll swap over to the pills this week, as he perscribed me 30mg daily (90 10mg pills a month).

So I'm o.k. with that: I'll be out of the clinic system, and I'm down to 30mg, which means I'm not so constipated. the guy actually seemed agreeable to giving me "something else" for "breakthru pain" so naturally, being the dog I am, I gave him the dilaudid spiel (hydromorphone really works good, doc!) but he wasn't buying it...yet!

So I'm still obviously more junky than not, but do feel a whole lot better being down in dose on methadone, and really glad I won't have to keep going to clinic, as inability to travel was worst part of being on clinic, to me...

and mostly just wanted to wish you well, as I know this endless struggle, us methadonians that don't totally love the shit, are always going thru...

DF

p.s.: is 30mg pills pretty much the same as 30mg liquid dose at clinic? I've not much experience w/the pills.


...!!And thanks to all for the many kind PM's u'all sent me, while I was laying low:I tend to really hibernate when kicking....



0.48 mgs of methadone left in my body. I just weighed myself and saw that I have lost about 5 to 6 kilo's during those last two weeks! It's amazing how WD's/a taper will make you loose weight. I'm not even doing any sports right now since I feel way to weak for anything physical and I force myself to eat 3 times a day but it's still just melting away.. My constipation is gone a 100% too, guess that's the reason for the weightloss since I didn't change my eatinghabits.

My god, what an godawful longlasting shit methadone is. I still sneeze, I'm still cold and it seems like it's taking forever for things to improve, although they DO improve but it's all going sooooooo damn slowly. Ofcourse I've got nothing to complain since it has been a lousy two weeks since I quit the done but I really wish it was a sunny day in june and I were stabilised on 100 to 200 mgs of tramadol. If I'd accomplish that some day I'd be happy as fuck!
I can live with having to take a small dose of tramadol for the rest of my life but it seems like a long, looong way to get there.
Weekend is over, my stomach and muscles hurt but at least the done will be out of my system in a week or so.. I'm hoping to cut the trammies down to 300 a day by the end of march..

Saint
03-04-2008, 11:01 AM
Way to go, Saint: I just logged back on, and came over to mdone to see what u were up to: I never had any luck w/tramadol...but I really support you in doing anything that'll help u get of mdone. I had got off it about a month or so ago, but it was cuz I'd bumped into my old heroin connect, so a gram a day of tar wasn't really an improvement, and really nailed me money-wise....so I swapped to free clinic over here, which meant 'fessing up to V.A. that I was addict, so they would pay...but interestingly enough, my doc freaked out that I was doing all these nasty drugs, and called turned me over to pharmacy honcho, who actually said--since I have legit pain--that he was willing to put me on methadone for *pain* if I would sign "the contract" and take random piss tests and shit, so I had nothing to loose, said sure...Most vets cannot get on methadone at hospital, and have to sign up at clinic, and go to groups, and our regular doc is notified that we are junkys, etc....

At the same time, when I got off tar a couple of weeks ago, and got back on mdone, I managed to stay down at 35mg, and have now dropped to 30mg daily, so I'll swap over to the pills this week, as he perscribed me 30mg daily (90 10mg pills a month).

So I'm o.k. with that: I'll be out of the clinic system, and I'm down to 30mg, which means I'm not so constipated. the guy actually seemed agreeable to giving me "something else" for "breakthru pain" so naturally, being the dog I am, I gave him the dilaudid spiel (hydromorphone really works good, doc!) but he wasn't buying it...yet!

So I'm still obviously more junky than not, but do feel a whole lot better being down in dose on methadone, and really glad I won't have to keep going to clinic, as inability to travel was worst part of being on clinic, to me...

and mostly just wanted to wish you well, as I know this endless struggle, us methadonians that don't totally love the shit, are always going thru...

DF

p.s.: is 30mg pills pretty much the same as 30mg liquid dose at clinic? I've not much experience w/the pills.


...!!And thanks to all for the many kind PM's u'all sent me, while I was laying low:I tend to really hibernate when kicking....

I couldn't log in yesterday and first thing I see is your post. What a nice surprise, I really missed you around here. Good to hear you cut back to 30 mg only, which is very low as far as I'm concerned, and are out of the clinic-shite. It's a big step forward!
As far as I know 30 mgs in pills equals 30 mgs of liquid done, it does in europe anyway. Some users think that liquid done is better but you know what us junkies are like..''other' methadone is always stronger or weaker than the one you had before that.
I have the same with the tramadol: I order them from the internet (but made an appointment with my doc for next month, I'll have to tell her about the switch anyway) and one brand seems to work better than the other. But it's probably just me.
I always found 30 mgs more or less perfect: less constipated and less numb + I'd be able to function pretty o.k. on it. In general I'd feel better than on 60 mgs once stabilised.. So I hope you'll feel the same.
I decided to work a little less - 4 instead of 5 days a week - for the coming two months because I notice that stress has a major effect on WD-s. I sweat a lot more at work than I do at home. Guess I just feel uncomfortable amongst them 'normal people'...
Anyway, so far so god... no relapses and I don't feel as bad as I did on the subuxone.. but it still remains to be seen if the tramadol will hold me painwise.
I had a really bad day yesterday but today is slightly better again so we'll see. I will keep you posted but most of all: happy to read that you are still amongst us (I was getting a little worried) and congrats on getting away from the clinic-nightmare!! Best of luck..

Saint
03-07-2008, 09:23 AM
Fuck, it has been almost 3 weeks now, 19 days to be exact and I feel like total shit today. I traded the 'normal tramadol' for 'tramadol extended release' two days ago (150 mgs twice daily) and feel like a bag of jelly. I have never felt this weak in my life. Still sweating and a bit shaky and tremby.
Is there any difference between the 'normal' tramadol and the tramadol ER? I think the normal ones peak about an hour and a half so I felt almost close to normal for about 3 times a day. Now, I just feel like I'm too weak to even go out and do some groceries. But maybe it'll pass.

As from today there should be 0.0 methadone left in my body so I guess it could be my body adapting or something. I'm also still sneezing after 3 whole damn weeks!! So far I have been taking 5 mgs valium a day only - which is as good as nothing in my book - but I'm considering upping that a little for a while. Any thoughts on this?
I hate methadone WD-s.
Sorry just had to piss & moan for a while..

SynthMorph
03-07-2008, 01:51 PM
I cold turkeyed from 40mg methadone a while back. My doctor prescribed me 10mg valium 3 times a day and 30mg temazepam at night. Without those I probably wouldn't have made it or slept at all. The WDs were the worst on day 5 and 6 and I had to drink my head off. On top of that I used 24mg codeine and 30mg dxm every 4-6hrs for the first couple weeks. I found the dxm really helped. It'll decrease opiate tolerance and increase their effects. Great stuff for a taper. I found the major WDs stopped after about 2-3 weeks and minor WDs stayed for 5-6 weeks. I'm thinking of trying this out again soon except with pods cause I'm on a lot more methadone.

Saint
03-07-2008, 02:08 PM
I'm from Europe and don't even know what DXM is.. (I'll look it up though ;-). The thing is that I'm on tramadol (which already makes the WD-s more bearable) so I can't use too much benzo's I guess.. maybe a little more but I'd rather stick to the safe side + I'm wondering if feeling shitty is a side-effect from the tramadol? Nah... having crawling skin and sneezing all day must be still from the methadone WD-s.. in my book anyway.
I don't know how strong tramadol is compared to methadone (most ''relative opiate-strength sites'' lack tramadol). If anyone has a good link I'd be greatful.. too bad heroinehelper is down.

And WTF? Here is another moron who states that you have to taper of tramadol by using methadone (and that the WD-s from tramadol last 3 weeks????)

http://au.answers.yahoo.com/answers2/frontend.php/question?qid=20080306142803AA8CKm0

I'm not saying that tramadol is a godsend for me but I'd never ever wish a methadone addiction on someone who only takes a few trams every day...

OnzZznoD
03-09-2008, 12:51 AM
Personally i would be taking a lot more of the valium than 5mg a day. You would still be safe taking 40mg on top of the trams... the worst will be over soon then u can cut back on the vals...

Saint
03-09-2008, 01:29 AM
I am feeling a little better today - only backpain and cold but no more sneezing and nausea - AND I cut down on the tramadol as well two days ago.. went from 350/400 to 300 mgs.
And yes, I decided to up my benzo's a little: 40 mgs serax daily or 15 mgs valium, whatever I can get my hands on. As soon as my sleep gets better I'll start tapering them a little again..

I really, really hope this 'unorthodox taper' is going to work out since I have been on methadone for 25 loooong years and always failed getting off them (even with subs!) I'm surprised I'm still doing reasonably well after three weeks.

I went back to the normal tramadol capsules as well. Last week I ordered some tramadol ER (extended release) from an online pharmacy which I hadn't used so far and somehow the stuff was just NOT working.
But what was worse: yesterday I got a letter from my bank with an urgent 'fraudwarning'...they have blocked my creditcard since they are suspecting fraud.. stating a 'third party' tried to abuse my creditcard. That must be the new parmacy where the (fake?)ultram ER's came from since I didn't use my creditcard elsewhere. So now I'm wondering if this fraudulous pharm might even have sold me fake trammies too before trying to empty my bankaccount... Who is to say they don't put bakingpowder inside the capsules? Anything is possible I guess.

So thank god my bank is careful. I have to get a new creditcard though..

Anyway, I'm praying that this methadone-to-tramadolswitch is gonna work out, maybe with the temporary help of a little extra benzo's added every now and then.
I'm planning on tapering to 250 mgs tramadol next weekend.. then go to 200 mgs two weeks after that etc.. untill I'm on 100 mgs a day. I don't know if that's at all possible but we'll see.
100 mgs would be a pretty low dose but hopefully I still get a little painrelieve whenever I need it.

SneefOXYs
03-09-2008, 01:59 PM
The weird thing bout Ultrams with me is sometimes they hit me coo as fuck. And I mean coo as fuck, on the level of an OC fade. But most the time they just make me sweat, or hot as hell. Then I won't even really be feelin nothin. I've always wonder why my body reacts to Ultram like that. I remember one day I took 4, don't remember MG, but I was feelin great for like 8 hours. Then the next day I took 4 and didn't feel shit. Then I had the same thing happen a month later but in reverse. That's what I hated bout buyin them, it was always a toss up if I would catch a buzz. You can buy them pretty cheap though, and you can get em a lot of spots without scripts no prob.

Saint
04-30-2008, 03:03 AM
For those of you interested: I'm still on the tramadol and still haven't touched methadone. I know many people hate tramadol but it has been 10 weeks off methadone as for today.
I get them scripted by a painclinic now and the doc told me to STAY on a low dose methadone (like 10 to 15 mgs) along with the tramadol because I have painproblems but, stubbornly, I didn't because I want off the stupid methadone. Unfortunately methadone-WD's seem to last for ever.

About helping WD's: for me (bear in mind: everyone is different) the tramadol did help. A bit.. I have never taken over 350 mgs a day because of the seizurerisk.
Although they do help some, relieve only lasts for a few hours and tramadol will not take away all withdrawalsymptoms. At least for me they didn't.
I have been on methadone for decades and still went through hot/cold chills, sneezing, insomnia, sweating, pain etc. - and I still am to a lesser extent today - but it was more bearable than without the tramadol. You WILL feel some withdrawalsymptoms coming right through the tramadol though (I did anyway but I didn't want to up my dose even more).

The most horrible symptom I still have is backpain. I feel like a truck has run over me, my hips, neck and back hurt like freaking hell. It feels like my body releases some sort of stresshormone. All my muscles are extremely tense. Apart from that I have what some people call 'brainfog', a sort of disconnected feeling: can't concentrate at all, drop things, walk into doors, get little accidents all the time etc.
So, the party is not over yet.
I did taper the tramadol to 200 mgs daily as well. (Maybe I shouldn't have done that so soon..)
Anyway, I'm hoping my body will adapt to a methadone-free life.. if not it's on to another painmed..

SurfRat
04-30-2008, 03:27 AM
Why taper the Tramadols as well as the methadone instead of just the methadone?

I think Tramadols are a good option, somewhat effective mild opiate and not too addictive in small amounts.

You are taking a big step. I know you have been through many challenges in life and coming off this long term methadone will take some time is a real challenge. Your commitment, dedication, and moderate approach says a lot about your strength and personal determination.

It seems like you are willing to give yourself the time you need to recover and find balance for yourself and deal with pain issues. Stay with it.

Everyone says methadone is the hardest to kick and I believe them.


**500th post**

Saint
04-30-2008, 04:18 AM
Thanks man, I guess you're right. I have an appointment with my paindoc this friday and will ask him for some advise as well. It's just that I'm afraid of developping a tolerance for the tramadol too soon so that I won't be able to supress my pain on the maximum amount (400 mgs daily) eventually. I want to prevent taking a high dose if at all possible (also because of seizurerisk, changing one addiction for another and all the blabla).

However, if the alternative is going back to methadone or another (strong) painmed I might as well up my dose a little bit. I'm just being very careful. I do not take tramadol to get high - I wouldn't even be able to if I wanted to - but for pain. And it only seems effective for pain in the 300 mg a day range.
My hope is that the pain will subside in 6 months to a year, once my body starts producing some more endorphines etc. again and that I can slowly taper the tramadols after that. We'll see.

I think my paindoc will freak out when he finds out I didn't take any methadone like he told me too, he'll probably up my tramadoldose.
Any other methadone-users who had muscle problems for months after quitting done? And what about the disconnected feeling? I have great difficulty working and socializing because of all this shite, actually I'm surprised I managed to keep working so far. I feel best in my own house.. in fact don't feel like seeing anybody except BF.

Raz
04-30-2008, 05:05 AM
Whats up chica...The all powerfull carina who kicked the Done!!!

Maybe some codiene could help ya out...Or is that stuff codiene already in tramadol?....Tramadol didnt do shit for me...

Saint
04-30-2008, 05:16 AM
Hola Raz, que tal? I missed you, crazy wanker. Codeine does even less for me than tramadol (no, it's not already in the tramadol) and I heard they shouldn't be mixed. Maybe I should add some more benzo's.. that'll take care of the stress and maybe help with the fucking back/muscle-aches?
Trial and error or something like that..
How's your beerintake? ;-)

SurfRat
04-30-2008, 12:34 PM
I take small doses valium when my back goes out. Valium has a good profile re. muscle relaxer, the downside is the long halflife.

Saint
04-30-2008, 01:54 PM
I am already taking 30 mgs oxazepam (forgot english brandname) and 5 mgs valium... I'm not much of a benzofreak although I used low doses on and off over the years so I don't know if I'm taking a lot already. Guess not.

nova67
05-19-2008, 12:21 PM
yes im back on here.....

Wow...well its good your still moving forward....myself I went back on the trams full time...my pain doc has got me on 450mgs a day...and not so much as a muscle twitch...and im doing better function wise than I ever was doing on the MScontin. Still got the MS's for bad spells though..but my pain doc has been super cool with me cause I couldnt afford the MS's due to lack of insurance, so I went to the high dose or trammies which I can get dirt cheap at walmart. Im so happy that you are doing well saint despite the internet pharm set back...yeah I think you got scammed by em...you should have felt somthing out of em unless it was just the fact you were getting a tiny dose over a long stretch of time. But your right I can'y believe someone would advocate going from trammies to done its insane......keep on going saint its a long rocky road especially since you were on the crap for soo long.....

Saint
05-19-2008, 12:58 PM
Rigt now I'm not feeling well at all.. my paindoc prescribed me neurontin a few weeks ago and the stuff made me totally depressed. He pressed me to keep on taking them but I kept feeling worse and worse. Felt like a zombie, couldn't walk straight, memoryloss & no painrelieve either. So I quit them two days ago. But I'm still in pain and I got a throat infection as well as a bladderinfection now. Somehow I don't trust neurontin and I really think it's the cause of all this shit.

So I'm wondering what to do now... I asked my doc if I could use some diclofenac for my back but he said no, no, no.. keep on taking the neurontin (is he getting paid to prescribe that shit or what?!).
But it didn't work, it's as simple as that. So why won't he let me try a non-addictive drug? As far a I know diclofenac can be mixed with tramadol safely.. but he prefered neurontin when I mentioned it.
I'm on 250 - 300 mgs tramadol daily now by the way. Still haven't used any strog opiates so far..

& thanks for checking in Nova, good to see you.

DCBA
05-20-2008, 05:50 AM
I just took 40mg of methadone at 5:30PM and took 200mg of Tramadol at 11PM and feel great.



HandmeSomeOpiates: I had the same experience, I took both methadone AND tramadol and did not have any problems so I believe you. I didn't feel like tramadol caused any precipitated WD's. (But I still think it's wiser to taper a little further first).


So can i take tramadol with my daily dose of 115mgs of methadone without precipitated WD's?

DCBA
05-20-2008, 09:44 AM
I would love to be able to mix them both... I love the energetic buzz i get from tramadol. Has anyone else but you tried this?

Nate
05-20-2008, 10:27 AM
So can i take tramadol with my daily dose of 115mgs of methadone without precipitated WD's?

Unless I am mistaken, but tramadol isn't going to precipitate w/d. Though I don't know how much of the tramadol you will feel with that high dose of done, but the tramadol definetly isn't going to precipitate withdrawls.

nick
05-20-2008, 10:54 AM
Unless I am mistaken, but tramadol isn't going to precipitate w/d. Though I don't know how much of the tramadol you will feel with that high dose of done, but the tramadol definetly isn't going to precipitate withdrawls.

I agree,but if memory serves,there are some indications that 'done and trams are contraindicated and precipitated wd is possible.

Opinion seems to be divided.

Nate
05-20-2008, 01:33 PM
I agree,but if memory serves,there are some indications that 'done and trams are contraindicated and precipitated wd is possible.

Opinion seems to be divided.

Oh really, thanks for pointing that out Nick, had no idea. Good to know!

DCBA
05-20-2008, 03:50 PM
I agree,but if memory serves,there are some indications that 'done and trams are contraindicated and precipitated wd is possible.

Opinion seems to be divided.

Seems like i will be AGAIN a guinne pig.. :) Hope that works for me cause i love the extra-opiate effects i get from tramadol.

Saint
05-21-2008, 10:39 AM
Seems like i will be AGAIN a guinne pig.. :) Hope that works for me cause i love the extra-opiate effects i get from tramadol.

When I mixed methadone and tramadol I was on a super low dose of done (about 10 mgs) and yes, the tramadols made me feel better - I remember feeling great even - but like Nick says.. there are different reports about it.
My paindoc prescribed me 15 mgs of done and 150 mgs of tramadol at the same time last month (I didn't take the methadone though). But since he should know his stuff mixing on a low dose is ok I guess.

Personally I don't buy the precipitated WD shit. But better safe than sorry.. Check out bluelight, they have tons of threads about tramadol.

Mallinckrodt
05-21-2008, 10:53 AM
I wonder if trams would give me a little glow along with my maintenance dose. Do you think it would Saint? Do they show up as an opi on a tox screen? I remember enjoying them a little when I was just starting to use, only when I couldn't find what I needed, but they did help.

DCBA
05-21-2008, 01:11 PM
I wonder if trams would give me a little glow along with my maintenance dose. Do you think it would Saint? Do they show up as an opi on a tox screen? I remember enjoying them a little when I was just starting to use, only when I couldn't find what I needed, but they did help.
Thats what i'm thinking about...
Tramadol do not show on urine tests, any of them..

Saint
05-21-2008, 02:19 PM
I wonder if trams would give me a little glow along with my maintenance dose. Do you think it would Saint? Do they show up as an opi on a tox screen? I remember enjoying them a little when I was just starting to use, only when I couldn't find what I needed, but they did help.

I honestly don't know.. you aren't on a low dose methadone are you? I remember that when I first took them I was pretty sick (lostmost of my pills in Bolivia) and was on a low dose of done against my will.. it sure gave me a happy feeling at the time, if only because I finally felt a little better physically. It supposedly works as an anti-depressant so that could be what would make you feel better even if your tolerance for opiates is high. But be careful with tramadol. I take it as prescribed because I'm weary of seizures.. and remember that everyone reacts differently to tramadol..

Maybe you should ask Handmesomeopiates, he wrote this at the beginning of this thread:


I just took 40mg of methadone at 5:30PM and took 200mg of Tramadol at 11PM and feel great.
__________________

DCBA
05-28-2008, 08:05 AM
About mixing tramadol with methadone...

I've been researching on the subject for a few days, and found some literature that tends to prove the "reported" precipitated WD effect of tramadol when mixed with methadone wrong.

Look at this study from 1994:
Cami J, Lamas X, Farre M. Acute effects of tramadol in methadone-maintained volunteers.
Drugs 1994; 47:39-43.

Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology, Institut Municipal d'Investigació Mèdica, Universitat Autònoma, Barcelona, Spain.

The opioid agonist and antagonist properties of tramadol were assessed in 6 male opioid-dependent volunteers enrolled in a methadone maintenance programme. Subjects participated in 3 experimental sessions in which the effects of intramuscular tramadol 100 and 300 mg and placebo were evaluated. Tramadol neither produced morphine-like effects nor precipitated a withdrawal syndrome; its subjective, behavioural and physiological effects were not different from those of placebo. Although the results of this study suggest that tramadol has a low abuse liability in opioid-dependent subjects, higher doses should be tested to confirm these data.

hxxp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7517825

In the following days i'll try to mix tramadol with my daily dose of methadone. I think i've done enough research to trust on not having precipitated WD symptoms.


But be careful with tramadol too.

Look at this:

Methadone detoxification of tramadol dependence.

hxxp://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/els/07405472/2000/00000019/00000003/art00098

Consumed.
05-28-2008, 10:57 AM
Tramadol does not show up on any test I mean ANY. They are not an opiate i posted my experience with them in another thread I went from 80 mg a day to 300 mg of tramadol. IT WORKED. But for people saying they can a "buzz" from them have to have REALLY low tolerances maybe use like 10 or 20 mg of oxys, or norcos maybe. I feel no buzz at all and ive experimented and went welll above 300 tramadol. Sorry if this was a useless post....

Saint
05-29-2008, 10:57 AM
Nope, no buzz for me either!

eerased
05-29-2008, 11:03 AM
Saint, I'm really happy that it worked for you. If you go to the beginning of this post you will notice there were some that said you could NOT go from done to trams and looky here.. YOU DID IT!!
Congrats I'm sure it wasnt easy! Now there are some saying you cant get a buzz from trams. It's hard but it can be done,

I've not tried but I can tell you I recently was talking to a friend of mine whom is dosing at a rate of 240mg a day of oxy and he said that he can take 6-10 tams every now and then and he gets a buzz!! So everyone is different and unless you try for yourself you really wouldnt know for sure! So my suggestion is give it a try it cant hurt to try! Some will probably get a buzz and some wont!

I havent had any trams for a long time and I'm looking forward to getting a few just to see if I can get that buzz... who knows maybe i can get my damm house cleaned..LOL


Again Congrats Saint, Girl you should be so proud of you! You have some serious will power. I lack it! :-)