If a person's on meth, are they addicted?

[Coddfish]

I have been having a discussion with another member about addiction, and he argued that his addiction had been stopped when he went onto methadone. I honestly had never thought of it like that, and it got me wondering what you other beautiful people thought about this. If you are not using other opiates, but you are on methadone treatment, are you addicted to opies? There are doctors who say that methadone patients do not crave methadone, but I have not found this to be true by a long shot. Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks, coddfish

[hovadagod]

His addiction to his drug of choice stopped and was replaced by another addiction that does not interfere with the other aspects of his life so much.

Nobody in their right mind can say that people who use meth are not addicted to it and nobody can say that meth is not an opiate.

But it IS correct to say that he is not addicted to opiates anymore. He is just addicted to one. He is addicted to "an" opiate with no "s" and that opiate is methadone.

It's all semantics and only comes up so often because of 12 step "programs" that do just that; they program people to use terms like "clean" and "sober" which are all baloney. They play with semantics to persuade addicts to think a certain way. Who cares what "sober" means? It is not what life is about....all that matters is that the meth got him off of the opiates which were impacting his life in negative ways. (Not that I don't see the value in such programs:jerkoff:...really...it's just that they are not for me)

Along the same lines, counting the days that one is sober is also a waste of time. That just makes people who are bound to relapse anyway, angry at themselves when they do. It's not about how many days you are clean; it's about how you feel about yourself and whether your days are happy and fulfilling. If meth fills your days with happiness and makes you productive, it don't matter how many you can line up in a row. Maxamize happiness and minize pain any way you can. That's what a wise man once taught me.

[anthropod]

^^^what hovadagod said

[mkchll]

I would say he's dependent on methadone rather than addicted as long as he's not chasing a high and on a stable dose. But who knows I guess you could look at both words in the same way depending on how you look at it and what your experience is with addiction. But comming from someone who's been "addicted" to H and other Opiates there's definetly a diference.

[hovadagod]

There is a difference between meth and H for sure. Is there a difference between dependence and addiction? People are dependent on something when they need it for some "important" purpose or at least think that they do. People are addicted to something when they cannot stop doing it even if the reason for the dependency ceases to exist or a better method for achieveing that purpose is not chosen even though it is "healthier". But then you have to figure out if that reason is real or not and then whether it is true or not.

Is it real?: Is being happy the real reason the person is taking meth? Is avoiding WD's the real reason the person takes meth?

Is it true: Is the meth user really using the meth because they can't be happy without it? Is the meth user really taking the meth to avoid WD's?

Then try and figure out what makes something "better" than something else to achieve a specific goal ie happiness.

These concepts are full of subjectivity which is nearly impossible to escape.

The difference between dependent and addicted would require a book to explain. That book would represent your philosophy on the topic and others would certainly be able to write their own book representing their own philosophy. They probably would contradict each other no matter how convincing their arguments are. Anyway, even though I was a philosophy major in College, I always hated the philosophy of language so I'm not gonna go there. Once you get into the philosophy of language, you begin to think that all philosophy is meaningless so I steer clear because I like to believe that philosophy has meaning.

Sorry for this post....I know it is annoying shit to think about....:juggle: I just can't hold all the balls at the same time dammit!!!

[Mokelly]

uh huhuh..... He said BALLS.....

[hovadagod]

shut up butt-head

[blackdog]

once an addict always and addict !!!!or so one might say.if a heroin addict gets on a methadone maintenance/detoxe prograhm does that mean he's not a heroin addict anymore?using presently or not,never say never. if it ain't heroin or methadone it could be most anything else.substitution is a big word ie:sex,food and/or booze to name a few. :cool: peace da/dawgg:cool:

[Mokelly]

shut up butt-head

lol don't you love bevis and butthead? ok I'm done sorry

[devilsdrug]

not to be dissin any body but are fukkin crazy,

[hovadagod]

I am pretty crazy...but is that what you're sayin'? Or are you talking about Beavis and Butt-Head. Add a subject to that post.

[Brony]

Is there a difference between dependence and addiction? People are dependent on something when they need it for some "important" purpose or at least think that they do. People are addicted to something when they cannot stop doing it even if the reason for the dependency ceases to exist or a better method for achieveing that purpose is not chosen even though it is "healthier". But then you have to figure out if that reason is real or not and then whether it is true or not.

Technically speaking, dependence is the physical need to take medication to prevent a withdrawl syndrome. Addiction is the continued use of a drug (and the compulsive searching for that drug) in spite of the harm that may come to the user.

I take 60mg of hydrocodone a day (20/200mg hydrocodone/APAP sustained release capsules; compounded for me by a great pain doc); I am dependent on my meds, but I'm not addicted.

That's my .02

[hovadagod]

Technically speaking, dependence is the physical need to take medication to prevent a withdrawl syndrome. Addiction is the continued use of a drug (and the compulsive searching for that drug) in spite of the harm that may come to the user.

I take 60mg of hydrocodone a day (20/200mg hydrocodone/APAP sustained release capsules; compounded for me by a great pain doc); I am dependent on my meds, but I'm not addicted.

That's my .02

Sustained release? Is it with DXM or what? What makes it sustained release? I used to take 15/80's. Definately not sustained release. I'd take about 200mg hydro per day.

[Mokelly]

where the heck do you get 15/80?? from your doc???

[devilsdrug]

dependent depending on the addict or addiction an adependent person is an ADDICT get it or not that IS the botton line the sooner one can come to grips with that fact the better off you are , and the less crazy you will be

[Coddfish]

Maxamize happiness and minize pain any way you can. That's what a wise man once taught me.

Lemme guess, you're a disciple of Bobby McFarrin? :vomit2:

BTW, I agree with everything you wrote on that post.

[Set]

Once pricked you never get enough for the "blood"....I was made a pincushion in hospitals for years....a lot of synthetics...mainly methadone and demerol...but it doesn't matter what the kink...that "numbing" feelin hooks ya fer life...

I've walked off many opiates...and I believe the fact I never used Morphine or Herion to be helpful in that...synthetics are smaller monkeys than the gorilla man...easier to shake...but you always go back when you least expect it...it happens!:speechles

But I have been tempted...

Smoked that rope and opium too...enjoyed them all...right now on nothing and feelin like sh*t...bone pain sucks canal water...:drool:

The place is Set...but no man knows the time...

[hovadagod]

I'm an addict. Not dependent on anything but sub.

[Mokelly]

hovagod, you made a good point in the above post, that there's a difference between an addict, and someone who is currently addicted to something.

[exitwound]

where the heck do you get 15/80?? from your doc???

15/80's are compounded at "Mom & Pop" pharmacies....or, at least, they were once upon a time.

The new federal guidelines state that 15/200 is now the maximum for CIII hydro formulations.

[hovadagod]

I heard. Still pretty good but oh...the days of 15/80's. I'd get a script for like 240 a month from the net. HERE THAT LE. Had to call the doc to reduce it because shit was gettin' out of hand. HAd to keep gettin' paid!!! I'd take 12 of those a day and be nice. Way cheaper than oxy...all you need is a medical record from a walk-in clinic saying that you have back pain or something. They also give you benzo's or soma on top of it. These doctors write rx's without seeing you for 3 or 4 xani bars per day and (used to be 240 15/80 for me...sweet talked him) 120 15/200 hydro's. You just have to tell them the right thing and get some nice records that support your claim (barely). one time my friend SWIM could not get records for a while...the clinic wouldn't copy them until he submitted this for to some other place.
The doctor wrote him a note saying that he was complaining of wrist pain. That's all it said....wrist pain. It was like a note you'd give to your teacher when you missed class...it was enough. They took it. But you have to fax a copy of your driver's license. P M

[GMorris]

15/80's are compounded at "Mom & Pop" pharmacies....or, at least, they were once upon a time.

The new federal guidelines state that 15/200 is now the maximum for CIII hydro formulations.
Even so, one would have to presume that the old Cold Water Extraction technique would still be a valuable tool to have, if you had these and wanted to get the APAP out of it, no? I never tried the CWE (probably should have though), but if I ever have enough Hydro to do anything for me, I most likely will.

But I digress; as for the topic at hand, I firmly believe (based on my own experience, 2-1/2 years on "the program") that if you are on the Methadone program, taking a CII substance on a daily basis, yes, you are addicted. If the medication is suddenly stopped (again, personal experience), the "patient" will develop withdrawal symptoms and will actually crave the drug after a certain amount of abstinence. Anyone who doesn't probably wasn't an addict in the first place!

[Kallie]

15/80's are compounded at "Mom & Pop" pharmacies....or, at least, they were once upon a time.

The new federal guidelines state that 15/200 is now the maximum for CIII hydro formulations.

I use to get the 15/80s from a small pharmacy, but then my doc said they were a rip, so he put me on Avinza 120 + 60mg /daily. I think I liked the 15/80s more because I had lots and I could have a few whenever I felt the need (many times during the day without the higher Tylenol dose and risk of liver damage). The physical act is what I miss, I guess. The Avinzas are once a day... if I don't want to run out.:rolleyes:

[exitwound]

I heard. Still pretty good but oh...the days of 15/80's. I'd get a script for like 240 a month from the net. HERE THAT LE. Had to call the doc to reduce it because shit was gettin' out of hand. HAd to keep gettin' paid!!! I'd take 12 of those a day and be nice. Way cheaper than oxy...all you need is a medical record from a walk-in clinic saying that you have back pain or something. They also give you benzo's or soma on top of it. These doctors write rx's without seeing you for 3 or 4 xani bars per day and (used to be 240 15/80 for me...sweet talked him) 120 15/200 hydro's. You just have to tell them the right thing and get some nice records that support your claim (barely). one time my friend SWIM could not get records for a while...the clinic wouldn't copy them until he submitted this for to some other place.
The doctor wrote him a note saying that he was complaining of wrist pain. That's all it said....wrist pain. It was like a note you'd give to your teacher when you missed class...it was enough. They took it. But you have to fax a copy of your driver's license. P M

The best deal I've seen from ROP's like that one is 150 count of 10/325's....or in rare cases, 15/200's.....certainly never 240 count!!!

I'll have to learn more about this one.....they sound a lot better than my ROP!

[hovadagod]

I basically found a new op, had surgery, and explained to the doc that I would need an adequate amount considering my tolerance. I explained that I needed 2 every 4 to six hous and he OK'd it. Never heard of anyone else getting so much. You really just have to talk the doctor into it and be strong. Know what you need and find an OP that's new.

[Paregoric Kid]

as a psychiatrist said to me once, "no it doesn't cause addiction, just dependence."
addiction and dependence are the same things except that one is "medically necessary" and the other is"personally necessary."
you go into a methadone clinic an opioid addict and you leave a patient dependent on opioids. you gotta admit though, it's all the same fucking thing when it comes down to it. just nicer sounding labels.

[shaunclo]

as a psychiatrist said to me once, "no it doesn't cause addiction, just dependence."
addiction and dependence are the same things except that one is "medically necessary" and the other is"personally necessary."
you go into a methadone clinic an opioid addict and you leave a patient dependent on opioids. you gotta admit though, it's all the same fucking thing when it comes down to it. just nicer sounding labels.

Well said P.Kid, Thats the bottom line. Period. Theres just no manuevering around it. If you are on methadone, you are an addict who is dependent on some form of opiates. If you DIDNT need the methadone, than you wouldnt be on it. If you are not on methadone (or any other opiate) than you are not dependent. Its usually the ones that know deep down how fucking addicted they are that try to make themselves feel better by using arguments like this one.

I no longer use H, but am on bup right now. I am definitley addicted and dependent on this shit until I decide to not be, or until I find a bag. he he he he he.

But seriously, I am the only one here who is not addicted OR dependent on opiates. I just like how they make me feel. I dont care what anybody else has to say about it. I AM NOT ADDICTED!!! I only do it when I feel like it. ;) See how easy that is.

[red26]

All I know is that time was a huge factor that contributed to my ADDICTION. Spending 2-3 years on pain pills (oxy's) and then 2-3 years on methadone adds to the acuteness of a persons addiction as it did mine. I made the choice to cross the line and get loaded consistantly for a few years on a daily basis, saying fuck it,I dont really care anymore if I'm an addict. Methadone has a saturation factor that applies also, when your trying to kick it. I took the leap from 45 mgs. to nothing and went through wiithdrawls for almost three months, but recently kicked dope(still chipping though) and it was a breeze after spiking anywhere from 2-8 times a day for 9 months. I gotta say, if you've been on methadone for a few months, your definately physically addicted.

[shaunclo]

All I know is that time was a huge factor that contributed to my ADDICTION. Spending 2-3 years on pain pills (oxy's) and then 2-3 years on methadone adds to the acuteness of a persons addiction as it did mine. I made the choice to cross the line and get loaded consistantly for a few years on a daily basis, saying fuck it,I dont really care anymore if I'm an addict. Methadone has a saturation factor that applies also, when your trying to kick it. I took the leap from 45 mgs. to nothing and went through wiithdrawls for almost three months, but recently kicked dope(still chipping though) and it was a breeze after spiking anywhere from 2-8 times a day for 9 months. I gotta say, if you've been on methadone for a few months, your definately physically addicted.

God I love methadone, but its stories like this one that scare the living jebus (I love the simpsons) outta me. THREE FUCKING MONTHS!!!! I dont know how you even handle that! I can barely handle the first couple of stages let alone 3 months, or 90 days, or 2,160 hours of w/d'ing. This is why I steer clear of methadone at all costs. Even though I get super high and great euphoria from the stuff. Almost better euphoria than H. Yes I said it, I get an all around better high from methadone than I do from H. Methadone is an all around body tingling sensation that just makes my mouth water. I can feel it from my toes all the way to my head.

[red26]

No joke man! Methadone is hardcore stuff and it's a bitch to detox from, hardest thing I ever been through so-far. First time I took it recreationally my "friend gave me between 7-10 mgs. the day before chrismas eve. Needless to say my holiday was spent hugging the toilet in extacy. For me personally, mg. to mg. methadone is the strongest dope Ive ever taken. It's so easy to o.d. on it , it's not even funny. Especially if they startt you out at thirty and let you go up 10 a day! I was in a constant state of hyper-active doped out euforia for a few months, and then the tolorance began to kick in. I got up to 95 mgs. and realized it wasn't what I was looking for or needed. I tried and tried to get off of the stuff but it was sooo hard! When I said kickin H was a breeze in comparisson I wasn't kidding.
Methadone sticks with you for entirely too long when trying to abstain. The one thing that saved me from exploding was the P.S.T. It help so much with the cravings and body aches,chills, sweats, lethargia, so-on and so-forth.
Also, I was wondering, I was speedballing alot towards the end of my dope fiending there and have herd this helps with lessening withdrawls from H. Has anyone else experienced this? Sorry to get off subject.

[sidman]

OOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH-OH-BOY-OH-BOY-OH-BOY!!!!
What a frickin' LOADED question!!! I think that anybody who is on methadone is definately an "active addict",PERIOD!! The only difference is instead of going to see a dealer,you go see a doc' and there you go!! It really pisses me off to no end how our "government" likes to think that they know better than WE do ,what is good for us!! Then they cut the "middleman" out of your addiction and sling you thier own form of dope(which is far more addictive and by far more HELL to withdraw from!!)and they do this saying that they are helping out the addict,all the while they get paid for it(through the addict,or insurance or whatever,but they DO get paid for it!!)and encourage you to "keep coming"!! BULLSHIT!! TOTAL BULLLLLLSSSHHHHHITTT!!!!!!! They even have the balls to lie about it and tell addicts it's safer than dope! That it isn't harder to kick!!That it doesnt make your bones ache!! That it doesnt do this and it doesnt do that!! Fucking LIAR'S!!!! Why are there people who have been on it for 20 or more years and just cant seem to get off it then Uncle Sam?!!HUH?! If it's so harmless and beneficial big bro, then why do people get wasted on it for their first month on it until they "level out" (as you call it,before you RAISE THE DOSE!!)huh Uncle Sam? I could rant and rave about this FOREVER but I will spare my fellow "opiophile" freind's and keep it to a minimum. Who know's who created methadone and why? (I wont tell you guy's, I want to hear it from you) Put it this way,it was said that it was created to prevent a morphine shortage(but instead think CONTROL!!) AND created for a longer acting "Pain Relief".
Over in europe,they have started detoxing people off of heroin with(ohhh my GOD!!) HEROIN!! And guess what? It works!! And over there,the plan is to eventually get the addict OFF of opiate's,NOT keep them on it for the rest of their fucking LIVES!! Over HERE the government supports people staying on it until they DIE!! (or until you run out of money or insurance,and if THAT happen's,guess what? It's time for the addict to kick now and the addict is SHIT OUTTA LUCK!! time to go back to DOPE!! )
The ONLY thing I see that is good about meth is that it does allow those with uncontrollable addiction's to get back some control,and get job's and get live's. Instead of having to take a risk and get dope illegally,they can go to the clinic where they are at least sure they will get a REAL dose o' dope,without possibly going to jail. I just don't like how the meth clinic doc's like to act like meth is a "medicine"and a totally safe alternative to heroin.I don't like their lie's and how they say it's safer than other opiates(but how can all the addicts saying OTHERWISE all be wrong?) I don't like how they keep people on it for year's and year's!! I am a firm believer that if one want's to Stay on it for life than so be it,and if one want's to be independant of it,even better!! But some of these clinic's are literally DEPENDANT on the addict because without the addict,there would be no meth clinics!! SHIT,I'm gonna stop right here,I'm gettin all worked up(particularly about our lying government bastard's) and it would be best for me to "pass the torch" along and to "shut my fuckin' MOUTH!!"

[blackdog]

Technically speaking, dependence is the physical need to take medication to prevent a withdrawl syndrome. Addiction is the continued use of a drug (and the compulsive searching for that drug) in spite of the harm that may come to the user.

I take 60mg of hydrocodone a day (20/200mg hydrocodone/APAP sustained release capsules; compounded for me by a great pain doc); I am dependent on my meds, but I'm not addicted.

That's my .02
bronyraur try not taking yer meds fer three days and you'll see what addiction is all about more then your dependency fer pain relief.we all started somewhere sum of us inda gutter others inda dotors office and thats my buck three eighty......$1.380 peace da/dawgg:cool:

[Paregoric Kid]

I don't see why it's such an outrage that they make you pay for methadone. it sucks but methadone doesn't grow on fuckin' trees, someone has to manufacture and distribute it and it's better having the addict paying for his own medicine than having the taxpayer pay for it.
why do they stay on methadone for 20 years? or are you really asking why does an addict stay addicted?

[pointed]

Interesting question, Codd. It rather depends on how one defines addiction, I guess. I delineate between addiction and physio dependency. In my estimation, anyone can become chemically dependent on opiates (including methadone) but not everyone becomes addicted. In my personal lexicon, addiction has a gross defining characteristic - LOVE of the drug. I mean gut-wrenching, drooling devotion. Split as I suggested, anyone COULD theoretically become addicted to ANYTHING. In my opiate experience, I was (and remain) hopelessly addicted to heroin - even though I haven't been physiologically dependent on it for the better part of a decade. While I was certainly physiologically dependent on methadone (and I even enjoyed it if I took enough), the love just wasn't there. I've never "craved" methadone in my life; I hate the stuff. It cost me more than heroin ever did. To wander back towards the main point, I would say that it differs from person to person according to psyche/taste.

Best,

Kate

[pointed]

SHIT,I'm gonna stop right here,I'm gettin all worked up(particularly about our lying government bastard's) and it would be best for me to "pass the torch" along and to "shut my fuckin' MOUTH!!"

Brother, you said it. And how. Remind me to tell you how I kicked the 'done sometime.

Best,

Kate

~When a place gets crowded enough to require IDs, its time to move.-Heinlein

[shaunclo]

Who know's who created methadone and why? (I wont tell you guy's, I want to hear it from you) Put it this way,it was said that it was created to prevent a morphine shortage(but instead think CONTROL!!) AND created for a longer acting "Pain Relief".


Methadone was first synthesized by German scientists during WWII due to a shortage of Morphine. It was then brought over to the US in 1947 to be used primarily for Heroin addicts.

Those Germans scientists also came up with a drug called, "Buprenorphine" during that time also. But it wasnt as effective as morphine or methadone so it just sat on the backburner for decades, well, unitl now.

"You gotta hand it to those Germans, they make great cars!"..........Top Secret (the movie)

[Coddfish]

And I hear about Hitler's first name being the eponym for dolophine (AKA methadone). I don't think so. Wouldn't it be Adolphine and not Dolophine? A 'dol' is a unit used to measure pain. I believe that's the root.

[poppy]

bronyraur try not taking yer meds fer three days and you'll see what addiction is all about more then your dependency fer pain relief.we all started somewhere sum of us inda gutter others inda dotors office and thats my buck three eighty......$1.380 peace da/dawgg:cool:
I agree with Blackdog.
Take Care. Laters Poppyx

[JunkYardSaint]

And I hear about Hitler's first name being the eponym for dolophine (AKA methadone). I don't think so. Wouldn't it be Adolphine and not Dolophine? A 'dol' is a unit used to measure pain. I believe that's the root.

That is another widespread myth. The name for dolophine comes from the latin root for the word pain (dolor), it had nothing to do with Adolf whatsoever.

[shaunclo]

Exactly what JYS said, since methadone was invented during WWII, and its name is dolophine, people just assume that since dolophine is so close to adolph that it was named after hitler. Its just a coincidence.

[blackdog]

it don't take no latin mumbo-jumbo for me to associate the word/name a-dolph with pain.to me it's all one and the same
yea jys what a coincidence lol puke......the horror,the horror:(
just my 2 cents....peace da/dawgg:cool:

[devilsdrug]

i thind i said this before are you fukin guys crazy, semantics detox or maint. get real are you computer geeks or dope fiends

[exitwound]

i thind i said this before are you fukin guys crazy, semantics detox or maint. get real are you computer geeks or dope fiends

Yes. :D :cool: :rolleyes:

[shaunclo]

Yes. :D :cool: :rolleyes:

Yup, what he said:)

[shaunclo]

i thind i said this before are you fukin guys crazy, semantics detox or maint. get real are you computer geeks or dope fiends

If you are on a computer as much as I am, talking about dope as much as I am, than its pretty obvious that we are a little bit of both.

Is that o.k. with you Devil, or do you have a problem with that??:rolleyes:

[blackdog]

Yup, what he said:)

ditto............:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

[satori]

once an addict always and addict !!!!or so one might say.if a heroin addict gets on a methadone maintenance/detoxe prograhm does that mean he's not a heroin addict anymore?using presently or not,never say never. if it ain't heroin or methadone it could be most anything else.substitution is a big word ie:sex,food and/or booze to name a few. :cool: peace da/dawgg:cool:


YUUUP!!!!!! Food !!!!!! I start to eat like crazy when i go off, gain 8 pounds. Then when im done with WD's i lose 10-15 and end up healthier then befor. Such a great cycle, that is untill i go over board some time and lose it. Not that there is anyting "to lose".

[devilsdrug]

no problem with both the post was meant to draw out the answers, but i still say are you guys crazy it like the dog said

[diditagain]

websters defines addicted as such : 1 : to devote or surrender (oneself) to something habitually or obsessively
they also define dependant as such :1 : the quality or state of being dependent (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/dependent); especially : the quality or state of being influenced or determined by or subject to another

In my opinion methadone is evil. its the governments way of keeping track of, and limiting the rights of opiate addicts. its also alot harder to get off of, and tears your body to shreds when you try. methadone is simply replacing one opiate with another but it does allow people to live productive lives when taken correctly, Unfortunatly, a majority of people on methadone DONT obstain from other opiates, and still useother drugs as well. If you want to get clean and make the decision to stop using and change your way of life, it is a lifelong battle that includes REMOVING yourself from the drug culture all together and living like a regular joe. addiction is not just a dependancy on drugs, it is a disease that involves our desire to escape our emotions, good and bad, and it encompasses our thoughts, actions, and desires. dependant people are regular joes that take medicine from there doctor for legitimate pain and must continue it to maintain there health. If you want out, you have to make the decision for yourself, go to detox, go to rehab and start going to meetings and CHANGING your WAY of life. if you just want to maintain and are too much in fear of withdrawl, your not ready. Personally, i would never get on done because i dont want the government to know im an addict. of course, opinions are like assholes. so wether you like it or not, thats mine. My opinion, not my asshole...lol :D

[hovadagod]

I'm not addicted to anything b/c I'm on subuted...THE MIRACLE DRUG!!!!:cloud9:

An I'm not a computer geek b/c I have a lap-top:angry23:

[Tar_Baby]

I would say he's dependent on methadone rather than addicted as long as he's not chasing a high and on a stable dose. But who knows I guess you could look at both words in the same way depending on how you look at it and what your experience is with addiction. But comming from someone who's been "addicted" to H and other Opiates there's definetly a diference.

[Canis aureus]

It's all semantics, and opinions... dependent or addict?

User anyway, with a heavy bodily addiction :cool:

[kramorph]

On methadone daily and not an addict eh?,interesting.Tell him to stop for a week, and he'll soon find out the uncomfortable truth.

[Canis aureus]

But recovered or how could I put it... no needle and spoon, and generally my health is superior to the health I used to have. I walk over ten km's or miles per day. Yes, it is true :rolleyes:

[lolleedee]

We could debate the whole addicted/not addicted and the methadone crap for decades aand we won't ever all agree. My methadone works for me and has allowed me to stay off any other opiates and it has given me my life back. It took me a while to accept it, but now I just think of it as medicne...I take insulin for diabetes and methadone for addiction. If I have to stay on it for the rest of my life, oh well. At least now I HAVE a life! I know that this philosopy doesn't jive with everyone, b ut that is ok. If we all agreed on everything, the world would be a pretty dull place!

[vaxn8]

I have been having a discussion with another member about addiction, and he argued that his addiction had been stopped when he went onto methadone. I honestly had never thought of it like that, and it got me wondering what you other beautiful people thought about this. If you are not using other opiates, but you are on methadone treatment, are you addicted to opies? There are doctors who say that methadone patients do not crave methadone, but I have not found this to be true by a long shot. Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks, coddfish

The medical definition of addiction includes both physical dependency as well as psychological dependance. You can switch to methadone or sub or LAAM, but you are still addicted. Even terminal cancer patients are considered addicted, physically of course. I know most pain patients don't like to admit or agree with this, but it is true.

The DSM IV wording follows, as you can see anyone physically dependant will qualify for at least a few of these...

DSM IV (1994)
The DSM IV (1994) relies on symptoms for its definition. The DSM says that addiction, or dependence, is present in an individual who demonstrates any combination of three or more of the following symptoms (paraphrased), occurring at any time in the same 12-month period:
Preoccupation with use of the chemical between periods of use.
Using more of the chemical than had been anticipated.
The development of tolerance to the chemical in question.
A characteristic withdrawal syndrome from the chemical.
Use of the chemical to avoid or control withdrawal symptoms.
Repeated efforts to cut back or stop the drug use.
Intoxication at inappropriate times (such as at work), or when withdrawal interferes with daily functioning (such as when hangover makes person too sick to go to work).
A reduction in social, occupational or recreational activities in favor of further substance use.
Continued substance use in spite of the individual having suffered social, emotional, or physical problems related to drug use.The italicized lines are the ones that would qualify the purely physically dependant.

[halfalien_s4]

being a CP patirnt i take methadone for pain not because im in maitenance and im not addicted to it.....

[vaxn8]

i take methadone for pain not because im in maitenance and im not addicted to it.....


By definition of the DSM, you are unless you could stop without withdrawal occuring. I take what I take for CP as well, and don't like the definintion either, but it is true.

[nick]

Jesus anyone who thinks that taking done cures you of addiction is a very silly person.Hell just try stopping taking done.
This is pure semantics,reminds me of this woman on a drug policy list who told me off for using the term addict.According to her we are drug users not addicts.

[stick+lick]

Jesus anyone who thinks that taking done cures you of addiction is a very silly person.

Thats the whole point--there is no CURE whether you are dependant at the time or not you will always LUST for opiates like a vampire lusts BLOOD.....there is a huge difference between dependance and addiction to ME but I would answer YES to this question merely because I know once a coconut always a coconut!

[Dolophine]

From my experiences with Methadone, you do crave it and want more all the time and it turns into your DOC if you are coming onto it from a lesser opiate such as Codeine, Morphine, Oxy's etc. I came onto it from Oxycodone and it was like a God compared to Oxycodone. It turned out to be extremely euphoric and just amazing because of it's long action. Much better than short acting opiates.

I would choose Methadone over Heroin for recreation and pain control. I just like Methadone more than other drugs. I'm not sure why because most people would choose Oxy or Hydro over methadone if they had the choice and they would DEFINITELY choose Morphine or Heroin or Dilaudid over Methadone and I wouldn't at all.

Occasionally if I wanted a change I would use Morphine or Dilaudid or Oxymorphone or something and possibly Oxy if my tolerance went down but Oxy is too weak to have an effect right now at any dosage within reason. So occasionally I would switch but I would be happy to come back to Methadone.

I truly believe that if Methadone was totally illegal and a "schedule I" (most illegal drugs in America including cocaine, heroin, crystal meth) more people would enjoy it. I believe the more illegal as substance is, the more people demand it. I believe it has something to do with copping the drug and the risk and badboy type thing people get from it. I know it sounds dumb but that has a tiny part in it. The drugs effects also have a huge part in it and Methadone is just as pleasant as Morphine for many people, they just regard it as a lame drug because you can get it for almost nothing in a clinic or on the streets and it's not highly illegal. Back when Methadone was called Dolophine people used to regard it as a great drug and there was a pretty high demand for it. But then when the name was changed to Methadone and became widely available it's popularity decreased for recreational purposes. And some addicts who were on Methadone when they changed the name would talk about how good Dolophine was even though it was the same friggin thing as Methadone lmao. I got this info from various places on the web. Apparently in the 1960's it was called Dolophine and then the name changed and these same addicts who were on it in the 60's went to Methadone clinics not knowing it was the same drug and they would say ohhh i wish i could get some dolophine! and things like that.

Therefore, I believe Methadone is one of the best Opiates. If you use opiates for an injectable RUSH! Then Methadone probably isn't one of your favorites. If you use Methadone for a long acting body buzz of moderate pleasure instead of a quick injectable rush, then Methadone is probably one of your favorites. I myself enjoy the body buzz. So that's all I have to say!

[sweetdreams]

well i agree with alot of you. I can say that since i have been on methadone I havent used heroin. I have gotten my shit together gotten my life back together. Now addicting- yes methadone is addicting- i can say if i dont take my dose at the same time every fuckin day i can tell thati am gettin sick. I can feel it. I know some of it is in your mind but you do feel the cold sweats coming on that does start. It sucks cause it is just like heroin! You have to take it everyday! Its something YOU HAVE TO TAKE EVERYDAY OR ELSE YOU WILL BE SICK! right? so thats not addicting? how can that not be? to me that's addicting. the perfect example was the post who looked up the definition of addiction. So there you have it. The worst part is trying to get off the methadone. I can say I would rather detox off heroin than detox off ocf methadone! I think its much easier! YOu can always use methadone to detox off of heroin but what do you use to detox off of methadone??? Shit when I was in rehab they gave ME NOT A THING!!! They gave me catapress and phenabarbitol thats it and the phen. was only for like 3-4 days! so come on i think i would rather take the detox off the heroin before the methadone. Try coming off 260 milligrams 22 milligrams a day that wasnt fun at all.

and yeah id rather prefer the methadone over the diluaid or the heroin anytime cause with the methadone you always know what your getting. SHit you could always get a shitty bag of dope! did you ever get a bad batch of methadone? haha! Nah the methadone gives you a burst of energy anyway- it does for me about 3 hours after i take it, it kicks in and then i feel pretty good.

But I have had enough of it I believe i have made up my mind and i have decided to start detoxing this month. It is something that I have been thinking about and i have made up my mind so now I just need to tell my clinic to actually start the detox. I have to tell them this week. The worst part is they can say NO! can you actually believe that? They can you deny us that? anyway Im gonna do a slow detox probably 3-5 milligrams a week and im at 115 so thats not that bad!! I have just had enough of the clinic. I have made that my New YEars resolution to get off the methadone.
I thought that was a good one!!!

[prettypoppy]

Methadone, for most patients who take it daily, does not cause any kind of "high" or euphoria. I take 240mg a day, and when I dose I feel absolutely nothing, beyond maybe a very small, warm "glow" for about 15 minutes when it kicks in. If I'm not sitting still doing nothing I don't even feel that. I'm not saying anyone is lying--if you feel something on it, then ok, but I am saying that most people who are on a stable, adequate dose do not. The problem may stem from being on a dose that is too low. If you are feeling sick less than 24 hours after your last dose, you probably need a bigger dose. A stabilized patient shouold be able to go up to 48 hours without any serious w/d symptoms setting in, due to the long half life of the drug. An unfortunate thing about MMT in this country is that many clinics underdose people, and many patients are afraid to get on an adequate dose for fear that tapering will take longer, so they stay on a very low dose and then wonder why the medication does not work very well for them. MMT is a commitment, no doubt about it, but if you are going to get on MMT, then you may as well get the full benefit of treatment. Studies show that the minimum time frame for people to be in treatment before attempting a taper and have any kind of chance for success is 3 years.

As far as being "addicted" to methadone, to me there is a big difference between addiction and dependence. Anyone who takes an opioid medication regularly for more than a couple of weeks will be dependent on it, meaning that if it is suddenly withdrawn, physical symptoms will develop. That is NOT the same thing as being addicted, and it is NOT just "semantics", either. Addiction is a situation where you are out of control--your whole life revolves around the drug and getting more and more of it. You are most likely unemployed and unemployable, you probably don't care too much about personal hygeine issues. You seldom show up for family events. You cannot be relied upon. You lie, cheat and steal. Your health is probably bad. You don't pay your bills. If narcotics are prescribed for you, you do not take them as prescribed--you take far more of them, you go to different doctors, and you lie to them all.

On methadone, it is possible to quiet that demon raging inside you. On MMT, I am employed, reliable, a good mom and wife. I look and feel much better than I used to. I don't spend all day thinking about the drug and when I will get to take more. I am not tempted to dip into my takehomes because I am on an adequate dose. I pay my bills, I tell the truth, and my life is in control. I am no different from, say, a pain patient who takes their medication exactly as prescribed and whose pain is under control. If our medication were suddenly withdrawn, we would both be sick, because we are dependent on it. Lots of people are dependent on daily meds to keep them healthy--think how sick a diabetic would get if their insulin were withdrawn! Are they "addicted" to insulin?

Now of course, I suppose it is POSSIBLE to be addicted to methadone. Personally, I tried it once back in my using days when a family member had it prescribed for something and I was really disappointed. It did nothing--far less than the hydros I was abusing at the time. But some do say they enjoy it. And if it is misused and abused, it can turn into an addiction as well. For me, it has been a life saver. There are days that I wish it did more, but that desire is fleeting and easily controlled now. It's not for everyone--but many people do not give MMT a fair chance, on an adequate dose, for a sufficient amount of time--and that is a shame. It is mostly due to clinic BS, which is really a shame.

[nick]

I'm on the OR (opiate recovery) list and when I started reading the posts I was shocked to discover that done maintenance was regarded as being in recovery.Sorry,but this is all crap.If you take someone's done away you'll see just how addicted they are.Hell,why are they taking done in the first place?I think I said some months ago this entire thread is an interesting semantic idea,but in the end it is semantic.

[prettypoppy]

Here's some info on addiction vs. dependence:



ADDICTION
Addiction is a primary, chronic, neurobiologicneurobiological disease, with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. It is characterized by behaviors that include one or more of the following: impaired control over drug use, compulsive use, continued use despite harm, and craving.
PHYSICAL DEPENDENCE
Physical dependence is a state of adaptation that often includes tolerance and is manifested by a drug class specific withdrawal syndrome that can be produced by abrupt cessation, rapid dose reduction, decreasing blood level of the drug, and/or administration of an antagonist.
In the case of sedative drugs, spontaneous withdrawal may occur with continued use. Tolerance Tolerance is a state of adaptation in which exposure to a drug induces changes that result in a diminution of one or more of the drug's effects over time.


Behaviors suggestive of addiction may include: inability to take medications according to an agreed upon schedule, taking multiple doses together, frequent reports of lost or stolen prescriptions, doctor shopping, isolation from family and friends and/or use of non-prescribed psychoactive drugs in addition to prescribed medications. Other behaviors which may raise concern are the use of analgesic medications for other than analgesic effects, such as sedation, an increase in energy, a decrease in anxiety, or intoxication; non-compliance with recommended non-opioid treatments or evaluations; insistence on rapid-onset formulations/routes of administration; or reports of no relief whatsoever by any non-opioid treatments. Adverse consequences of addictive use of medications may include persistent sedation or intoxication due to overuse; increasing functional impairment and other medical complications; psychological manifestations such as irritability, apathy, anxiety or depression; or adverse legal, economic or social consequences. Common and expected side effects of the medications, such as constipation or sedation due to use of prescribed doses, are not viewed as adverse consequences in this context. It should be emphasized that no single event is diagnostic of addictive disorder. Rather, the diagnosis is made in response to a pattern of behavior that usually becomes obvious over time.

Physical dependence on and tolerance to prescribed drugs do not constitute sufficient evidence of psychoactive substance use disorder or addiction. They are normal responses that often occur with the persistent use of certain medications. Physical dependence may develop with chronic use of many classes of medications. These include beta blockers, alpha-2 adrenergic agents, corticosteroids, antidepressants and other medications that are not associated with addictive disorders

[Canis aureus]

I am an addict who is physically dependent on methadone, but I'm not addicted to methadone in the way that I am to short-acting opiates and opioids!!!

How's that ;)

It is different... not only semantics!

[prettypoppy]

I'm on the OR (opiate recovery) list and when I started reading the posts I was shocked to discover that done maintenance was regarded as being in recovery.Sorry,but this is all crap.If you take someone's done away you'll see just how addicted they are.Hell,why are they taking done in the first place?I think I said some months ago this entire thread is an interesting semantic idea,but in the end it is semantic.


In my opinion, being in recovery is not about when you last ingested anything, but about the fruits of your life. Are you responsible? Are your bills paid? Are you healthy? Do you take care of your family? Are you employed? Are you reasonably happy? Are you law abiding? THAT is recovery--not some chip with a number on it. Many many people take meds every day that they would be very sick if they did not take. That does NOT make them addicts--it makes them patients who are dependent on their medications for continued good health, mental and physical. I am smart enough to know that if I go off MMT, in search of what you call "real recovery" I will be back at death's door in about 2 weeks, so, I take my medication as prescribed and my life is good. It's exactly what I hoped for when I went through all those spin dry "rehabs" and 12 step groups over and over and over. I have a biochemical problem in my brain chemistry that has now been corrected with medication, and anyone who says that is not recovery does not know me and what my life is like now.

[OxyContinuously]

In my opinion, being in recovery is not about when you last ingested anything, but about the fruits of your life. Are you responsible? Are your bills paid? Are you healthy? Do you take care of your family? Are you employed? Are you reasonably happy? Are you law abiding? THAT is recovery--not some chip with a number on it. Many many people take meds every day that they would be very sick if they did not take. That does NOT make them addicts--it makes them patients who are dependent on their medications for continued good health, mental and physical. I am smart enough to know that if I go off MMT, in search of what you call "real recovery" I will be back at death's door in about 2 weeks, so, I take my medication as prescribed and my life is good. It's exactly what I hoped for when I went through all those spin dry "rehabs" and 12 step groups over and over and over. I have a biochemical problem in my brain chemistry that has now been corrected with medication, and anyone who says that is not recovery does not know me and what my life is like now.


Not to incite riot, but what biochem "problem" was corrected with methadone? is it not true that methadone (an opiate) now takes the place of your drug of choice? So what is corrected? Or is it merely an acceptable substitution? I agree about the lifestyle changes; that is correct and positive and part of recovery; but methadone is an addiction---like heroin; I have to agree w/ nick on this one. It becomes a game of wordplay. That doesn't mean that methadone is not a lifesaver. of course it is. I know many friends who have completely reformed their lives because of it. But are they still addicted? Absolutely.

OxyC

OxyC

[Papa Verine]

I'm on the OR (opiate recovery) list and when I started reading the posts I was shocked to discover that done maintenance was regarded as being in recovery.Sorry,but this is all crap.If you take someone's done away you'll see just how addicted they are.Hell,why are they taking done in the first place?I think I said some months ago this entire thread is an interesting semantic idea,but in the end it is semantic.

I was avoiding this thread because it seems destined to create controversy but... Nick is 100% right. If you think you're in "recovery" and you take 240mg of methadone every day you are kidding yourself. Recovery is about your mind and body returning to a natural state. This happens through abstinence.

I don't have any problem with people taking methadone. I just don't like people trying to rationalize. Dependance vs. Addiction??? Whatever...

If I was sitting on a mound of methadone right now, and I took enough of it every day to get well, whatever that dose might be, you know what I'd be? A fuckin' Methadone addict!!! But that's just me... You be whatever you want to be.

[prettypoppy]

So, since a diabetic is dependent upon insulin for their health, are they addicted to it? Are they not "in recovery" because their bodies are not in a "natural state"?

As I have said elsewhere, many people are BORN with a condition called EDS (endorphin deficiency syndrome) and others develop it over years of opioid abuse. This means that the brain no longer produces endorphins--the body's natural opiates--in sufficient quantities. This leads to severe depression, malaise, and cravings. People who are born with it have likely spent many miserable years trying one antidepressant after another with no success--because antideps do not target endorphins, they target serotonin and dopamine. Then one day they stumble across opiates and discover that their depression has been magically lifted. They don't feel drowsy or sedated like normal people would--they feel energized, awake, and alive. So, of course, they seek out more and more of this drug that makes them feel this way--but, due to the short acting nature of most opiates, and the potent euphoria associated with them, it effects their lives in negative ways. And others who are NOT endorphin deficient may start abusing opiates just to party or fit in with others, and end up using them for so long that they damage their natural system to the point where it never returns to normal no matter how long they are abstinent. They end up relapsing over and over due to the agony of living without endorphins--basically being unable to enjoy anything in life. THAT is the biochemical problem I am speaking of, and it IS very similar to daibetes, in which the pancreas (either from birth, or due to a diet too high in sugar) shuts down and ceases to produce insulin, so it must be supplemented by an outside source. It is also similar to kids with REAL ADHD. These kids, when given stimulant medications, do not react "normally" to it by becoming hyper, talkative, etc, but instead they settle down and focus, because it is simply replacing what is deficient in their system, not adding to an already sufficient chemical. In EDS patients, the opiates are topping up a deficient system and the addict feels normal, not wildly high. Now, not all opiate addicts have EDS--that's NOT what I'm saying--but some do, and for them, methadone is usually a good medication choice. Many people think that methadone is a "replacement" for heroin, etc--but what is meant by replacement therapy is NOT that it replaces HEROIN, but thet it replaces the missing endorphins in the brain of people with permanent biochemical changes.

So....if a person has EDS......and the only way they can live a normal life is with supplemental opioid therapy--and they are taking their meds as prescribed, are feeling absolutely NO high or euphoria from it, and are living happy, successful lives MILES different from their lives in active addiction, and are going to counseling (if needed) and changing their lives for the better--you are going to tell them that none of that is "real" recovery, and that they are just "fooling themselves with semantics" and that they are really no different than someone with an ever increasing heroin habit?? And I guess that would also include everyone who takes any kind of medication that might leave them ill if they stopped taking it??

Plenty of people need daily medications in order to live life to the fullest. When I was abusing drugs, they took AWAY from the quality of my life. This medication ADDS to the quality of my life, in that, if I were on NO medication at all, my quality of life would be far worse than it is now.


Let's say someone is an addict, and they stop abusing opiates--and then they develop a medical condition that requires them to take opiate meds to control the pain--BUT they take them as prescribed and do not abuse them--and the medication makes it possible for them to have a decent life. Do you see that as the same thing as active addiction? If not, then why is it active addiction to take methadone, as prescribed, for a chemical disorder of the brain?

Personally, I believe I was attempting to medicate myself for a legitimate condition with the opiates I abused, and I made a big mess of things in trying to do so because I did not know what I was doing. Now, under a doctor's care, and with the right medication in the right dose, my disease of the brain chemistry is being successfully treated. That is NOT the same thing as addiction. Some medications produce a withdrawal syndrome if stopped abruptly, including opiates, antidepressants, stimulants, blood pressure meds, etc. Just because you would be ill if you did not take your medication does not make you an addict. Are you taking the med for pleasure (i.e., to "get off")? Or are you taking it to normalize your body chemistry? Because god knows, if I just wanted to have a good time, I would not choose methadone to do it with.

[Duckfeet]

I'm talking to myself, saying man, stay the fuck out of this one. Prettypoppy--who is a pal--has heard me more than anybody deserves to hear *anybody* on this subject on another forum, but, you know how it is.

First, for the record, I'm a boy who don't like methadone. Second, I'm a boy who has had five and seven pretty happy years sober in Alcoholics Anonymous. (I mean sober off of everything). I don't believe in God, but that's no obstacle to the steps, if you use the Big Book, and not the subject of this thread anyway. Got my life back both times, had good jobs, couple degrees, active, involved...still am, as far as that goes. Became a great big-wave bodysurfer too, as long as I'm just bragging. Was out today, too, for those of you who think a shot of heroin makes you just want to sit and nod ;-)

Both times in sobriety went out on dilaudids, then heroin. Did heroin today. Last few months bouncing between methadone and subs. Currently on subs. Well...currently on heroin, but don't tell my doc, lol. So whatever I say should be totally discounted as the ravings of a hypocritical junky who ain't sober, and you know how *we* are.

I agree, generally, with prettypoppy on the endorphins being screwed up. Something up there craves opiates, always will. I think, obnoxiously enough, that we adopt the vocabulary of the movement we are in. If we are in AA/NA we tend to see things thru those eyes. I'm AA, so I think I take a drink and I loose my sobriety. I think the rest *is* just fucking vocabulary. I've been basically addicted to opiates since 1971, where I first smoked heroin in Vietnam. Did methadone first time somewhere in seventies, where it was seen as end of the line, something old guys did when their veins were shot and they couldn't score anymore. Nothing me or anybody I knew would go near if we could help it. Wasn't until the eighties that I first got on maintenance in East Texas a few times. Always hated it, the constipation, sluggishness, the fact that everybody I knew gained huge amonts of weight. Did what I call the methadone shuffle in the morning at the clinic. (They were all free clinics back then, private ones, were just starting, down where I was in Corpus Christi, in late nineties, best I know). So I always fought to get off it.

One thing I know, is that I have to distrust all the words, the vocabulary that gets thrown at me by experts. Every few years they change it, find new metaphors for what happens in our brains, as if *explanations* changed anything. I'm addicted, always will be, to opiates. Its a *legal* thing, to me, sure as shit. If heroin were legal, then I'd still be addicted to it, but maybe I won't end my days in Palm Hall at Chino if that happened, 'cuz I'm a 2 striker already. So that's all it is to me, methadone is legal so people can order their lives around it. I know, I know, it also has a long half life, so u only have to do it once a day, but so what?, the government decides what opiates it's going to allow me, subs or methadone, and that changes the *vocabulary?" Fuck'em, I won't play. I want heroin. I can't get it legally, I'm up against it, damnit.

I'm glad people are able to get their lives together because "methadone works for them," but that doesn't make it any "better" or "less addictive" than heroin just because they have some new scientific evidence that tells them different. Saying, well "I'm not addicted, I'm dependent", is like saying I'm not from East Texas, I'm from Houston. Shit, you still dance the two-step and drink Lone Star beer don't you? (If you're from Austin, disregard that) You're strung out. We both get stuck in a jail cell without our "medication", we'll both be sick with the shits and the blues, so....

I'm sure if the gov't to my amazement and joy started a Heroin Maintenance program here, I'd be using different vocabulary for it too....nah, I doubt it.

Well, if I haven't stirred up enough shit, I don't think it's a "disease" either. Well, time for my medication ;-)

[prettypoppy]

Well, I've done all I can to explain my opinion, and why it IS my opinion. I am not stupid--I know what semantics are, and I have thought long and hard about this. If you define "addiction" only as whether or not you will have withdrawal symptoms if you stop taking the medication, then yes, all pain patinets are addicted, all methadone patients are addicted, people who take antidepressants are addicted, people who take BP meds are addicted, etc. However, the commonly accepted medical definition of addiction goes beyong mere physical dependence and takes into consideration psychosocial aspects as well, as listed in the above article I posted. If those are taken into consideration, the picture changes radically. And, if this were a mere matter of "semantics", don't you think the medical and scientific community, and those who put together the DSM IV, would know that and act accordingly, labeling everyone who takes any type of dependence producing medication "addicts"?

There is a TIDAL WAVE of difference in my life being on MMT as opposed to being in active addiction. NOw, if my only experinece with MMT had been my first time around I would be inclined to agree with you all. That is because I took other drugs, addictively, along with my methadone, I never took it as prescribed if I could help it, I skipped doses to get high, I did not follow any sort of recovery program, my life was in chaos. This time around, things are completely different--and as a result, my life is completely different. MMT patients have spent 40 years now dealing with stigma and prejudice against their treatment "It's just trading one drug for another", "You can't be in real recovery unless you are in a 12 step group and/or completely abstinent", "methadone rots your bones and turns your insides orange", etc etc. After spending 20 years trying, with all my might, to do what these people said would result in "real" recovery and which only resulted in abject misery, I finally found a treatment to get my life back on track and I am finally where I want to be in life--happy, responsible, productive,--and yes, I get a bit defensive when people try to tell me that is not "real", and that it is some low grade substitute for "the real thing".

[devilsdrug]

not to be a dick but u folks are rehashing what has been said in this thread months ago, and my opinion stated way back hasnt changed either, nor will it , just accept it , it goes a long way toward bein allright with urself

[stick+lick]

I'm on the OR (opiate recovery) list and when I started reading the posts I was shocked to discover that done maintenance was regarded as being in recovery.Sorry,but this is all crap.If you take someone's done away you'll see just how addicted they are.Hell,why are they taking done in the first place?I think I said some months ago this entire thread is an interesting semantic idea,but in the end it is semantic.


This is not a race and if recovery to YOU means that you have to worry so much about what someone ELSES recovery means to them -then I don't need your kind of recovery....you can have the words CLEAN< RECOVERY>SOBER> I will take the words "DOING PRETTY FREAKING WELL, and LIVING LIFE AGAIN" as my definition of MY recovery.

Besides, for ME recovery will NEVER be about whether I take drugs or not--it will be about how much of my life is used up thinking, craving, wanting and hunting for a drug and how my body mind and spirit feels.....We get so caught up in the what whys and how longs of taking or abstaining from drugs that we forget that addiction doesn't have a dam thing to do with ingesting drugs once your an addict. Its how you feel when YOUR NOT taking drugs that makes you an addict.

When I am actively addicted to dope it consumes my entire BEING-I find no other joy in life besides the use of IT. When I am in remission on methadone my life is about LIFE...a pain patient who takes narcotics so that they can live a full life is NOT addicted, they are dependant. That is what I am to methadone....and while on it the symptoms of my addiction are under control. BUT--even if I wasn't on methadone or taking illicit drugs I would still be an addict....I would just be a miserable addict counting the minutes and seconds of my "clean time" and comparing myself to other addicts who aren't "clean" to make myself feel better about my misery.

[stick+lick]

I was avoiding this thread because it seems destined to create controversy but... Nick is 100% right. If you think you're in "recovery" and you take 240mg of methadone every day you are kidding yourself. Recovery is about your mind and body returning to a natural state. This happens through abstinence.


By the by CANCER is a "natural state" for the people who have it--just because its the "natural" way your body IS doesn't mean you shouldn't fix it.

People with schizophrenia or epilepsy are naturally ILL--does that mean they shouldn't take meds to control the disease?

[devilsdrug]

its still all a word game , some folks cannot accept for whatever reason that bein addicted is ok, when u are ok with it , it no longer consumes u

[stick+lick]

Fine fine fine--it's a word game. But what I am saying is that addicted and dependant are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. Semantics means that one word sounds better than another, but means the same thing. I don't believe that is the case with these two words. It's like the difference between ABUSING DRUGS and ADDICTED to DRUGS. Some people would say if you abuse-your addicted.....but we all know that not everyone that drinks a beer is an alcoholic!

Most antidepressants are dependant causing--are people who take them "addicted"?

If we were debating whether a person on methadone is "CLEAN" or not I would be saying "NO, they aren't" but thats not the issue at hand. Am I clean on a mongo dose of methadone? Nope! But clean is just as miserable for me as using dope so I don't care.

Maybe that will end the debate-because isn't THAT what we are all really getting at-arguing about? Whether a person on methadone is CLEAN or not? No they aren't.....but neither is the alcoholic who attends a meeting drinks a pot'o caffeine, hoovers a pack of cigs and takes a sleeping pill to get to sleep at night! Whatever it takes to get thru the day!

[devilsdrug]

true true , peeps who are dependent on anti depre are addicted

[Canis aureus]

So, people who are diabetics and are on insuline are addicted to insuline?

[remybur12]

I would'nt say that people on antidepressents are addicted because antidepressents have no addicting properties to them. They just need them for the sake of their dopamines,serotonin, and their norepinephrine.

[prettypoppy]

Not true. Antideps DO cause a withdrawal syndrome if discontinued abruptly--as do certain blood pressure medications, stimulants, etc. And many meds will make you very ill if withdrawn suddenly--such as insulin for a diabetic. They must take their medication every day or risk becoming very ill.

[stick+lick]

Yes, most antidepressants need to be "stepped off" from--and they also cause tolerance, that is why people find they work for a while and then they don't....there is also some recent research that shows that babies born of mothers on AD's suffer withdrawal symptoms and should be treated accordingly.

Prendisone is another great example of a drug that causes dependance but not addiction. Not a fun drug to be on AT ALL.....but watch how quickly your body shuts down on you if you try to just stop taking it!

[prettypoppy]

Exactly--and yet, prednisone patients don't start obsessing over their prednisone, letting it consume their lives, taking too much of it, trying to get "high", etc. And stabilized MMT patients don't so that with THEIR medication either. If they DO, then they ma BE addicted to it (i.e., using it addictively).

[Duckfeet]

Look: people good with words can justify their behavior. So yeah, it's just semantics. To keep dragging up other areas doesn't show anything. Methadone is legal. Yer sober, clean, dependant, whatever trips yer trigger. But again, methadone's an opiate, it's legal if you go thru the clinic. People who can access scientific research get to feel better about their addiction, that's all. You want to call it another word?, that's cool *I'm* not threatened by it. I don't *buy* it, but so what? If they legalize heroin maintenance, I know we'll all start calling it diamorphine, and get haughty about it too, I suppose. Not me. I'm strung out whether it's darvocets, dilaudids, demerol or methadone...or heroin. and whether I buy little white methadone pills from the bros in the hood, or get my koolaid at the clinic, it don't matter. I don't like it. I'm 55, I'm still strong and fit. I don't see too many people look like me at the clinic, I don't feel like swimming when I dose. Can't shit. Go on ice cream diet. That's enough "research" for me.

To me, defending the methdone program is buying into the government's bullshit. Until they legalize heroin, and let me make my own decisions on it, I'll be totally distrustful of govmeds.

I'm a diabetic, I take little pills twice a day. And I *know* it's not the same thing. But because there is not *that* kind of stigma attached to diabetes, I don't need to get copious research quotes to justify taking the damn pills. And because glucophage don't give me a *buzz*, the puritan law establishment doesn't make it a schedule II.

I figure I walk this earth alone, I make my own decisions. I was at an AA meeting tonight. Haven't had a drink in over seven years. I'm a *good* AA. Don't believe a word of it, but I like sitting there, sharing my usual bullshit. Took the steps, it worked haha....I'm a purist, not a treatment center AA, so I'm a bonafide sober member of Alcoholics Anonymous, whoopeee.... ;-)

DD's right. I accepted I was an addict a long time ago. And how I see that is me own business, right? If I don't want to accept the gov't's notion that methadone=good heroin=bad, that's up to my libertarian notions, right? I gotta pal was at the meeting tonight, drunk, raising hell. I like that. :-)

Bukowski was lying in a charity hospital after hemorrhaging bad, close to death, and there was this flashing "Jesus" sign outside his hospital window. He was cool with it, he understood: He said life is pretty hard to take straight...

Hoohoo, can hear them big waves crashing down below, big NW swell coming in :-)

[Duckfeet]

its still all a word game , some folks cannot accept for whatever reason that bein addicted is ok, when u are ok with it , it no longer consumes u

I know *that's* true...hey bro, it's blowin to beat all hell down here, winds blasting, waves pounding...is it hitting up there too?

[nick]

Addiction,dependence it's all semantics.What you need you need.Accept it and yourself.There's nothing morally wrong with addiction.
As they say denile isn't just a river in Egypt.

[Canis aureus]

There are still funny things in semantics of dependence and addiction.

Would anybody say that diabetic is addicted to insuline?

And could anyone long-term methadone patient say that he/she is abusing methadone?

Possibly could, but it isn't very likely (after thinking...)


If one uses methadone long enough, it becomes absurd to think about abusing. I'm not sure would or could this happen with any other opiate/opioid, but I'm not able to use short-acting opioids like fentanyl very stabile. It seesm almost impossible because it is so short-acting.

How it is with heroin?

Would long term diamorphine patient say that he/she abuses (misuses) diamorphine?

[nick]

There are still funny things in semantics of dependence and addiction.

Would anybody say that diabetic is addicted to insuline?

And could anyone long-term methadone patient say that he/she is abusing methadone?

Possibly could, but it isn't very likely (after thinking...)


If one uses methadone long enough, it becomes absurd to think about abusing. I'm not sure would or could this happen with any other opiate/opioid, but I'm not able to use short-acting opioids like fentanyl very stabile. It seesm almost impossible because it is so short-acting.

How it is with heroin?

Would long term diamorphine patient say that he/she abuses (misuses) diamorphine?
This is a personal answer.I don't think I abused diamorphine,but I abused H for a long time before I ended up on diamorphine.
The diamorphine just stabilised and legalised me.I was still an addict and still dependant.
I think that addiction is not a moral failing.I'm not proud of being an addict,but I'm not ashamed either.As I say we are what we are.Accept it and you'll all be much happier.

[Canis aureus]

I don't know but it is simply strange how methadone and some short acting opioid differ in my use. If I have something like fentanyl, I wil buy syringes and have hell of craving to shoot it up. But that doesn't exist with methadone. I have had injectable liquid of methadone, but I didn't even think about shooting that. No, actually I thought, but I didn't find it enough interesting idea... Would it even kick in better?

I know how dependent I am physically, but with methadone all happens so slowly and not at all passionately.

Is it plainly in the slow action of methadone, and it's good oral bioavailability, or where it is? I don't care much what people think -- of course to the some point I care -- but methadone seems and feels very different than some euphoric opiate or opioid.


I have completely different attitude towards methadone and say, fentanyl... even oxycodene, or morphine...

[-Skrilla-]

Look: people good with words can justify their behavior. So yeah, it's just semantics. To keep dragging up other areas doesn't show anything. Methadone is legal. Yer sober, clean, dependant, whatever trips yer trigger. But again, methadone's an opiate, it's legal if you go thru the clinic. People who can access scientific research get to feel better about their addiction, that's all. You want to call it another word?, that's cool *I'm* not threatened by it. I don't *buy* it, but so what? If they legalize heroin maintenance, I know we'll all start calling it diamorphine, and get haughty about it too, I suppose. Not me. I'm strung out whether it's darvocets, dilaudids, demerol or methadone...or heroin. and whether I buy little white methadone pills from the bros in the hood, or get my koolaid at the clinic, it don't matter. I don't like it. I'm 55, I'm still strong and fit. I don't see too many people look like me at the clinic, I don't feel like swimming when I dose. Can't shit. Go on ice cream diet. That's enough "research" for me.

To me, defending the methdone program is buying into the government's bullshit. Until they legalize heroin, and let me make my own decisions on it, I'll be totally distrustful of govmeds.

I'm a diabetic, I take little pills twice a day. And I *know* it's not the same thing. But because there is not *that* kind of stigma attached to diabetes, I don't need to get copious research quotes to justify taking the damn pills. And because glucophage don't give me a *buzz*, the puritan law establishment doesn't make it a schedule II.

I figure I walk this earth alone, I make my own decisions. I was at an AA meeting tonight. Haven't had a drink in over seven years. I'm a *good* AA. Don't believe a word of it, but I like sitting there, sharing my usual bullshit. Took the steps, it worked haha....I'm a purist, not a treatment center AA, so I'm a bonafide sober member of Alcoholics Anonymous, whoopeee.... ;-)

DD's right. I accepted I was an addict a long time ago. And how I see that is me own business, right? If I don't want to accept the gov't's notion that methadone=good heroin=bad, that's up to my libertarian notions, right? I gotta pal was at the meeting tonight, drunk, raising hell. I like that. :-)

Bukowski was lying in a charity hospital after hemorrhaging bad, close to death, and there was this flashing "Jesus" sign outside his hospital window. He was cool with it, he understood: He said life is pretty hard to take straight...

Hoohoo, can hear them big waves crashing down below, big NW swell coming in :-)

If I had a dime for every exestentialist(or non exe author) author DF named in his posts, I would be rich bitch! Is this what happens when people read books? I have read books my entire life and I don't qoute Bukowski yet, i guess I aint trying hard enough! Just kidding ya DF!!!:D

Methadone is still a drug, still harmful to your body, to your mind, and to your spirit. Heroin is a drug, still harmful to your bodsy, to your mind, and to your spirit. Oxycontin is a drug, still harmful.....Ok you get it....

But seriously, what is the difference between done and dope? Well, for one, copping h is a shady business, quite risky, and costly. Copping methadone is a shady business as well, especially if it is state run, it can be risky(losing job if they find out, getting hooked), and it is expensive. It is a perception that we adapt, if the gov't sponsors it, it must be ok. Done is a terrible thing to be addicted to, so is television and so is dope. Pick your poison I say, for they all lead to the numbing of your spirit. IS a methadone patient not subject to the same scrutiny a h junkie is? Is he not subject to the same feelings of loneliness and depression a h junkie is? Is the methadone user not subject to almost all of the same risks a h user is, yes? You can call it what you want, but I knew I was going to see the dopeman every morning when I woke up to make my trek to the clinic. It just so happened the dopeman was getting paid by Uncle Sam....
_skrill

[prettypoppy]

Well, interestingly, this "terrible drug to be addicted to" that is so "dangerous to the mind, body and spirit" has given me back my life. Methadone is THE number one most studied drug in the world, and it is also one of the LEAST damaging drugs, physically speaking, that there is. Tylenol is MUCH worse for your organs long term than methadone or any other pure opiate. People have been taking methadone daily for 40 years without any serious long term side effects. The worst thing I have suffered is some constipation that has resolved itself and a lot of sweating. On heroin and/or hydrocodone, my life was a wreck. Even if I HAD been able to locate a legal source of enough heroin, for example, to get me through the day without being sick (like, let's say there were heroin clinics here) I would still be trying to score MORE from other sources and spend all day obsessing about my next shot and how it would feel, etc etc. Methadone replaces the opiates in my brain without inducing that kind of compulsive behavior. I don't think DAMN, if only I could get twice as much, or if only this got me really HIGH, or if only I could do this all the time, or how can I scam more, etc etc. It really is bizzarre to me, the way it works, because I really thought that I would not be able to be content without the buzz and euphoria of short acting narcotics. I thought THAT was what I needed--but it turns out it wasn't The way I feel, act, and behave on methadone (not to mention my state of health) is so different from the way I was before. Some of it may be chalked up to it's not being illegal, sure--but not all of it.

My mind, body and spirit were MISERABLE when I was abstinent, because my brain chemistry was seriously screwed up. ALL of us are opiate addicts--as someone else here said--in a sense, because we all manufacture natural opiates called endorphins, and we have opiate receptors in our brains for them. So, if you are naturally deficient in natural opiates, and you have to supplement them with exogenous opioids, which bring your levels up to normal--not "high", normal--why is that so BAD for you?

As I said earlier, if all you want to have as a definition for addiction is whether or not it causes withdrawals, then yes, I'm addicted to methadone. But the standard medical definition for addiction goes way beyond that. Do you consider pain patients who take their medication as prescribed "addicts"? If not, why not? My medical condition, which was present long before I began abusing drugs, is just as legitimate as theirs, and I certainly made EVERY attempt and then some to find another way to treat it. Are diabetics "drug addicts"? They would be possibly even sicker than an opioid dependent person if their insulin was withdrawn. That is where it gets sticky, because right wing conservatives blanch at the very IDEA of comparing insulin dependent diabetics to us, and they would all say no, of course they are not addicts--but if the definition is that narrow, then yes they are, and if insulin were illegal you can bet they would be right out there in the streets with us addicts trying to score their "fix".

Here is a copy of Dr. Payte's article on this very subject--give it a close read:



The Use of Insulin in the Treatment of Diabetes:
An Analogy to Methadone Maintenance
by J. Thomas Payte, M.D.1 A five-year study was conducted on 300 insulin-dependent diabetics. The purpose of the study was to determine if the use of insulin resulted in any long-term benefit to diabetics. The concept was based on two widely accepted hypotheses: (1) that a formerly insulin-dependent diabetic could learn to live a comfortable and responsible life without insulin, provided that he or she wanted to badly enough; and (2) that the use of any exogenous substance to replace or simply substitute for a deficient endogenous substance is conceptually unacceptable to modern scientific thinking and may be inherently evil.

It is obvious that exogenous insulin, being highly suspect at the outset, should be used in the lowest possible doses and for the shortest time possible. In this study, treatment with insulin was limited to two years and the daily dose was limited to a maximum of 40 units. The posttreatment follow-up period varied from three days to three years, depending on the duration of survival. During the treatment phase (insulin maintenance), random urine samples were collected under direct supervision and tested for glucose at least weekly. A positive urine glucose resulted in a warning to the patient. After three positive urine tests, the dose of insulin was reduced by five units daily for each positive urine test. This policy was intended to increase motivation on the part of the patient to provide urine specimens negative for glucose. If positives continued, the insulin was eventually discontinued and the patients were placed in the follow-up group. The authors of the study felt that patients would have a better chance of reentry into insulin maintenance at a later date if (a) the patients survived and (b) patients accepted full responsibility for their insulin dependence and were willing to go to any lengths to recover.

All patients were required to endure one hour of individual or group counseling each week, which addressed such subjects as meal planning, hygiene for the feet, pancreatic imagery, and dietary assertiveness. Counseling patients fell into one of three categories: those who had no need or desire for counseling; those who might need counseling but were entirely unwilling to participate; and those who both wanted and needed extensive counseling, but the counselors were so busy spending an hour a week with the others that they were unable to meet the increased demands and needs of this group. Avoiding this bothersome, time-consuming, and costly process of individualized treatment also served to reduce the risk of enabling the patients' maladaptive behaviors by what could seem to be a reward system. The resulting uniformity of service assured that the needs of no one were met. It was hoped that by making the treatment unpleasant that motivation for recovery would be enhanced.

Half the participants failed to complete the two-year treatment with insulin maintenance. Some patients simply dropped out of treatment, but most were terminated for continued glucose-positive urines. This was despite repeated warnings and in absolute defiance of the reductions in insulin dosage with each glucose-positive urine. It was concluded that this population is poorly motivated, difficult to work with, and is lacking the resources needed to effect the major life changes required for recovery. Many of this group died during follow-up. Some survived with amputations, blindness, neuropathies, and other conditions associated with the unhealthy life-styles of the diabetic.

The remaining half did manage to complete the two-year treatment and even appeared to experience relatively good health and seemingly normal functioning. Of course, this illusion of apparent good health was at the expense of continuing to maintain the insulin-dependent status with daily insulin. Some investigators speculated that insulin might be continued over a longer period of time and at higher doses. This notion was quickly rejected as being absurd because good health should not be obtained at just any cost. As the patients approached the two-year period, the insulin doses were tapered over the final two months. All subjects began having positive urine tests and again were showing active insulin-dependent diabetes. The obvious conclusion is that insulin does not help the insulin-dependent diabetic and is not effective in treatment. The high mortality rate of posttreatment patients suggests that insulin may have had some delayed, deadly toxic effects. This concept should be the subject of future research.

COMMENT
This "insulin spoof" was originally written with the idea to share it among friends and colleagues. Somewhat surprisingly, the spoof was well received by many who urged that it be shared with a wider audience. Initially, the intention was to transpose rather typical and illogical clinical thought processes about methadone maintenance to another more familiar chronic and incurable disease.

The transposition to a disease that is much more widely understood made the line of reasoning clearly absurd in the new context. Yet when this pseudologic is applied to chronic opiod dependence and methadone maintenance, few people find anything wrong or out of place. One might conclude that the vision of some is clouded by the philosophical and ideological considerations that erect barriers to understanding, accepting, and implementing this lifesaving treatment modality for those chronic intractable heroin addicts who need it.

Any humor in this parody is quickly lost when one estimates the loss of life and other costs associated with untreated heroin addiction that can be attributed to a persistent shortage of methadone treatment slots. This shortage is due, in part, to persistent negative attitudes toward the methadone treatment modality

[nick]

I'm pleased done works for you Poppy.It never worked for me and virtually everyone I know on done uses H on top.
You're wrong about legal H.I was prescribed H for 15 odd years and in that time didn't bother scoring extra H.If the dose of H is appropriare it works where done doesn't.
P.S Recent research in Scotland put done compliance at a whooping 3%.

[prettypoppy]

P.S Recent research in Scotland put done compliance at a whooping 3%.

That is ABSOLUTELY not true!!!!!!! If you read that study carefully, you would discover that the study counted as failures everyone who was still on methadone after 3 years time--even if they were on NO OTHER DRUGS AT ALL!! The study asumed that the goal of MMT was to get addicts off all opiates, including MMT. They stated that after 3 years' time, only 3% were off all drugs INCLUDING methadone! So, if you were still taking methadone as prescribed, and as all studies say you SHOULD be ( 3 years is the minimum recommended time to be on MMT before attempting a taper) you are a treatment failure!

Another point--the UK is infamous for chronic underdosing of its patients. The average dose there is around 30-40mg, and the minimum effective dose for most addicts is 80-120mg, so naturally these folks are spending a part of each day in withdrawals, and naturally they are going to try to get OUT of withdrawals by using something else. That is a major reason why methadone treatment is far less successful in the UK than here. But as far as that study goes, it doesNOT mean, as you insinuated, that only 3% of scottish methadone patients are free o f illicit drugs--it means that only 3% are off all drugs INCLUDING methadone at the 3 year mark. MMT was never intended, despite popular belief, to be a short term treatment for most patients. The founder of MMT, Dr. Nyswander, specifically stated this back in the '60's when it was just getting going. She said that the goal of MMT is not to get the patient off the medication, but to get him back to a functional state and back to being a useful, happy member of society. Methadone was never meant as a CURE for opiate addiction. It is merely a treatment that keeps the symptoms in check--remove the treatment and the symptoms return.

[nick]

True the study does use being clean as a target,but 3% says it all.Even taking the criteria to be long term stability I'd be suprised if you got over 30% compliance.If you look at the research on drug use in Scottish jails as well a clear picture of an addict population not wanting done emerges.
Adequate dosing also has nothing to do with it.People on large scripts either get higher or sell their done.Virtually all buy H.
If done works that's great,but it doesn't for the majority.

[prettypoppy]

Adequate dosing also has nothing to do with it.People on large scripts either get higher or sell their done.Virtually all buy H.
If done works that's great,but it doesn't for the majority.


Nick, that is so, so untrue.

Here is an example. The first time I was on methadone, I was never over 80mg. I started going into withdrawals every day by noon. I used heroin the entire time. It did very little to control any of my symptoms. NOw that I am on 240mg, I have no withdrawal symptoms and no cravings and I am functioning very well. I work full time in a call center where I have to be wide awake and alert at all times, and I am one of their star employees. I do not have any symptoms of overmedication whatsoever. I do not "sell my dose" and I do not take heroin. I am very involved in the MMT community and I know many many others JUST like me.

As a matter of fact, the stats in the US of patients who are compliant with their treatment and free of illicit drugs varies between 45% and 65%, depending on the quality of the treatment and the area. This is far and away the most successful treatment rate of anything out there today. AA's own survey of it's membership showed that only 5% were sober at one year. 12 step based rehabs have similarly dismal stats, because they try to treat a biochemical, medical disease with a religious, moral approach, and it just does not work for the vast majority.

Another thing--if you go hang out at a methadone clinic you are going to primarily meet either people very early in treatment who may not have stopped using yet, or people who are STILL on daily dosing after years at the clinic because they have never stopped using, etc. Naturally, you will think wow, what a bunch of pathetic souls! The ones you do NOT see, and so assume do not exist, are the ones who take their meds properly, who ARE in recovery, and who therefore have extended takehomes and are only there once or twice a month for 5 minutes on their way to work. You can't really blame people for making the assumption that those they see in the daily lineup are all there is TO mmt, but when people plug their ears and refuse to listen when you try to show them the facts just says to me that this is what you WANT to believe, and that you have some kind of investment in wanting to see things that way despite plenty of evidence to the contrary.

[Duckfeet]

I don't know but it is simply strange how methadone and some short acting opioid differ in my use. If I have something like fentanyl, I wil buy syringes and have hell of craving to shoot it up. But that doesn't exist with methadone. I have had injectable liquid of methadone, but I didn't even think about shooting that. No, actually I thought, but I didn't find it enough interesting idea... Would it even kick in better?

I know how dependent I am physically, but with methadone all happens so slowly and not at all passionately.

Is it plainly in the slow action of methadone, and it's good oral bioavailability, or where it is? I don't care much what people think -- of course to the some point I care -- but methadone seems and feels very different than some euphoric opiate or opioid.


I have completely different attitude towards methadone and say, fentanyl... even oxycodene, or morphine...

Oh I *agree*. There are some damn good arguments for being on methadone. I don't like it for the afore mentioned physical side effects, but you won't get an argument from me about what u posted. There are some really good reasons, if you are trying to just back a reasonably normal life, to get on methadone. My quarrel is with those that that argue over the terminology, and the ethical connotations some people give to different terms. The thing about diabetes, for example, is that we diabetics don't really *care*. Whether I'm "addicted" or "dependent" on glucophage doesn't really matter to me. I know I'm not *addicted* since if my pancreas put out insulin like it should, I wouldn't crave the shit. Hell, I don't crave it anyway.

I just think it's only when I got something that society snubs it's nose at, that I tend to start looking for words with less freight. It's why different ethnic groups keep looking for self-descriptive terms they can live with. Or homosexuals. Or *stupid* people. If i can't accomplish something any other way, I'll try to find nobility in vocabulary, I guess. My pet peeve is "Vietnam Era Veteran." Dan Quayle used to say that as thoough it were some sort of accomplishment.

Anyway, good post, and I wish heroin were legalized for incorrigible addicts like me, so we could find out which was most suitable. Another good thing about the UK, I gather, is that one of the ways you can be prescribed methadone for addiction, is IV, so those of us that are also addicted to injection of opiates, might find that works better.

But you put your finger on one of the real problems with diamorphine maintenance, and that is the fact one needs to inject several times daily, as opposed to one dose of methadone.

[Duckfeet]

If I had a dime for every exestentialist(or non exe author) author DF named in his posts, I would be rich bitch! Is this what happens when people read books? I have read books my entire life and I don't qoute Bukowski yet, i guess I aint trying hard enough! Just kidding ya DF!!!:D

Methadone is still a drug, still harmful to your body, to your mind, and to your spirit. Heroin is a drug, still harmful to your bodsy, to your mind, and to your spirit. Oxycontin is a drug, still harmful.....Ok you get it....

But seriously, what is the difference between done and dope? Well, for one, copping h is a shady business, quite risky, and costly. Copping methadone is a shady business as well, especially if it is state run, it can be risky(losing job if they find out, getting hooked), and it is expensive. It is a perception that we adapt, if the gov't sponsors it, it must be ok. Done is a terrible thing to be addicted to, so is television and so is dope. Pick your poison I say, for they all lead to the numbing of your spirit. IS a methadone patient not subject to the same scrutiny a h junkie is? Is he not subject to the same feelings of loneliness and depression a h junkie is? Is the methadone user not subject to almost all of the same risks a h user is, yes? You can call it what you want, but I knew I was going to see the dopeman every morning when I woke up to make my trek to the clinic. It just so happened the dopeman was getting paid by Uncle Sam....
_skrill

Yer right, I quote a lot. It's a vanity, for sure. Can't *help* it! ;-) You get older, yah get little in yer life that makes you look good: reading a lot, and being able to quote burntout writers is one of the reasons I'll never be humble. And writers like Bukowski and Celine and Dostoevski and other writers of the dark side kept me going, so I drop their names regularly in case there are younger versions of me floating around, want to know who I read, and I know you'all love me in spite of obvious braggadocio tendencies :) But I do misquote outrageoously--previous is bastardization of something Buk said in "Notes of a Dirty Old Man," and it's embarassing how much I twist up the old gnome's writings ;-)

and on the previous posts on methadone...I notice lengthy defenses of methadone maintenance. No need. People in AA, for example, just don't care. I don't like it--mmt--I believe increasing the dose is just like increasing the dose of heroin. It's good to a point, but I get more and more addicted. and obviously I'm not stupid, I can read, I know there are defenses with some weight to them of maintenance. I've been an opiate addict longer than most, and know from personal experience what happens after long periods on mmt (methadone maintenance), and it's not for me. and of course, the catch 22 rebuttal is that I need to do more. That's o.k., I'll pass. I gain weight, I find I get more irritable on mmt, eat too much, can't shit. Everybody's different. Glad they gov at least allows that, and if yer one of the lucky few, fine, but trying to convince the rest of us?

If we had choices here, then we could have a valid debate over longterm use of methadone maintenance vs. heroin maintenance, but we don't. and quoting "scientific" posts is like hiring gunslingers: I'm not equipped to fight back LOL...And I find when people don't like statistics, they find some they do like, so using statistics to make a point, when original methodology is suspect anyway, gives me a headache. If yer happy on methadone, I'm happy for you. Same same buprenorphene...scrounging up heroin, smoking rope, fixing insulin, browning aspirin....now *wait* a minute ;-)

And since I'm obviously addicted to quoting, here's Hemingway on the meaning of life:
"They throw you in the game, they don't tell you the rules, and then then they kill you. ;-)

[Duckfeet]

Nick, that is so, so untrue.

<snip>

As a matter of fact, the stats in the US of patients who are compliant with their treatment and free of illicit drugs varies between 45% and 65%, depending on the quality of the treatment and the area. This is far and away the most successful treatment rate of anything out there today. AA's own survey of it's membership showed that only 5% were sober at one year. 12 step based rehabs have similarly dismal stats, because they try to treat a biochemical, medical disease with a religious, moral approach, and it just does not work for the vast majority.

<snip>



I know your feelings about AA are about on a level with my opinions of methadone maintenance, so I confess to that up front. But I've seen you use these quotes before about "AA's own survey of it's membership..." with dismal results...
Could you please give the source of this quote. I ask this respectfully. I know you are good passionate supporter of methadone maintenance, and I am at best backsliding hypocritical AA, but still...

That we don't do surveys, that we have no opinion of outside isssues, etc. are fundamentals of AA. I know in AA itself they can't even agree on what sobriety is, much less decide who is sober at any time. Freedom from alcohol daily being the *only* definition in AA. Huge battles at silly open meetings about other crap, but most AA's could give a shit less about it. Other substances are "outside issues" to AA. So where does this oft-repeated quote come from please. I'll be glad to eat crow, but I need to be convinced. So again, where is source of "AA's survey of it's own membership?" thankyou!

Duckfeet
very wary

[prettypoppy]

It was in AA's 1989 triennial survey of it's membership. They no longer do this survey because they did not want the negative publicity that came with the findings. Its all over the web if you Google it. It states that only 5% of the people who start AA are still there, sober, in one year. I've posted links to it before. If you really want one I will pm you.

Duck, I really want to stop this argument now. I feel really upset by the whole thing--I let myself get way too wound up in it when it really should not matter to me so much what others think. This has been a very bad week for me on several sites, and right now I am questioning the whole advocacy thing. I feel like all I do is defend my position 24-7, and I'm tired. All I know is, MMT works for me and a lot of others, and it in no way feels like an addiction--it feels like a return to health. If you want to think otherwise, that is your right. Right now I just feel like saying "screw it" and crawling in a hole.

I was honestly just trying to give people some hope and some sound advice. I'm sorry.

[Duckfeet]

It was in AA's 1989 triennial survey of it's membership. They no longer do this survey because they did not want the negative publicity that came with the findings. Its all over the web if you Google it. It states that only 5% of the people who start AA are still there, sober, in one year. I've posted links to it before. If you really want one I will pm you.

Duck, I really want to stop this argument now. I feel really upset by the whole thing--I let myself get way too wound up in it when it really should not matter to me so much what others think. This has been a very bad week for me on several sites, and right now I am questioning the whole advocacy thing. I feel like all I do is defend my position 24-7, and I'm tired. All I know is, MMT works for me and a lot of others, and it in no way feels like an addiction--it feels like a return to health. If you want to think otherwise, that is your right. Right now I just feel like saying "screw it" and crawling in a hole.

I was honestly just trying to give people some hope and some sound advice. I'm sorry.

Look, I wrote long post defending AA. And you know I know how to do it. But it's hard for me to fight with you, since you've always been so nice to me, when I have felt in a similar position, when I wondered what I was doing it for, and I don't want to "win at any cost." So fuck it. In the end what matters is how people treat each other. I know on the other forum I felt really beaten down defending AA, and felt misunderstood and attacked, and I don't want to do that to you. You've always reached out to me wherever I was, and made me feel welcome, so I wish the same upon you. There's way too much defense of every fucking thing, and not enough human decency in this world these days, no matter what "program" it's in. Hang in there Prettypoppy, and I hate to quote AA at you, but "Do not be discouraged." (Smile). Glad you are doing good, the way you wear it is the best defense of it there is.

[nick]

Nick, that is so, so untrue.

Here is an example. The first time I was on methadone, I was never over 80mg. I started going into withdrawals every day by noon. I used heroin the entire time. It did very little to control any of my symptoms. NOw that I am on 240mg, I have no withdrawal symptoms and no cravings and I am functioning very well. I work full time in a call center where I have to be wide awake and alert at all times, and I am one of their star employees. I do not have any symptoms of overmedication whatsoever. I do not "sell my dose" and I do not take heroin. I am very involved in the MMT community and I know many many others JUST like me.

As a matter of fact, the stats in the US of patients who are compliant with their treatment and free of illicit drugs varies between 45% and 65%, depending on the quality of the treatment and the area. This is far and away the most successful treatment rate of anything out there today. AA's own survey of it's membership showed that only 5% were sober at one year. 12 step based rehabs have similarly dismal stats, because they try to treat a biochemical, medical disease with a religious, moral approach, and it just does not work for the vast majority.

Another thing--if you go hang out at a methadone clinic you are going to primarily meet either people very early in treatment who may not have stopped using yet, or people who are STILL on daily dosing after years at the clinic because they have never stopped using, etc. Naturally, you will think wow, what a bunch of pathetic souls! The ones you do NOT see, and so assume do not exist, are the ones who take their meds properly, who ARE in recovery, and who therefore have extended takehomes and are only there once or twice a month for 5 minutes on their way to work. You can't really blame people for making the assumption that those they see in the daily lineup are all there is TO mmt, but when people plug their ears and refuse to listen when you try to show them the facts just says to me that this is what you WANT to believe, and that you have some kind of investment in wanting to see things that way despite plenty of evidence to the contrary.
I actually do advocacy work in the UK and I meet a broad cross spectrum of drug users. The problem is for many addicts done is not what they want.There's a huge culture of non compliance and it has little to do with dosage.
In regards research on done compliance,due to the situation most addicts find themselves in done research seriously overestimates done compliance.The reasons for this are frighteningly obvious.
I'm pleased done has done so much for you and if it works for others that is great,but it doesn't work for many.
I guess you're in NAMA or whatever it is.Much respect to you all for the great work you do,but I don't think done is a good drug a view clearly shared by many addicts and I don't like the done clinic system.

[Canis aureus]

Just a note: one thing about methadone, using on top of it and doses.

When methadone dose is inappropriate, as I have heard it so many times is in Britannia, almost all done patients use other opiates together with done. I haven't heard that patients in UK are many times in even therapeutical doses (80 - 120 mgs). There are persons in 20 mgs, 50 mgs and in damn high, 80 mgs.


I had WD's in 120mgs, my WD's easen just in 150 - 160 mgs. I though that I would buy bextra 'done or something. I couldn't work, hadn't job etc. I really required over 140mgs (edited for being precise). I ached with 120mgs like hell, and thought this is crap this being; I made deals already to buy everything, but finally get better...

How many patient on appropriate dose still use other opiates? I mean, wjhen asked is the dose holding, and taking cravings... and when saying "yes" and still using, it is miracle.



Heroin does not even work right now! Only thing which about works is Fent.

(Everybody: Be Carefull with F!!!)


By the by, with heroin, I had problem with it's short actingness... woke up to take more h. I made shots ready to wake up and take more. I don't have anything against heroin or diacetylmorphine, I could use it. But I don't like to take it all the time! (And I'm not addicted to shooting, although I have shooted hell of the lot)

[prettypoppy]

In the end what matters is how people treat each other. There's way too much defense of every fucking thing, and not enough human decency in this world these days, no matter what "program" it's in..

Thanks, Duck. I did not want this thread to ruin our friendship and it was really upsetting me that it seemed to be doing just that.

I just felt frustrated, because I really do try to back up every thing I say with facts and I just felt like no one was even reading anything I wrote. You likely felt the same way with the AA thing in the past.

Frankly, it's only been very recently that I stopped going to AA--basically because I felt like a big hypocrite. But I agree that the problem of MMT is much more pronounced at NA meetings. I switched to AA long ago because I felt more accepted there. Right now I am sitting next to a big pile of Grapevine magazines that I saw at an AA club next to where I work and I grabbed a bunch because I do still enjoy reading them--and I know that people DO put their lives back together in those places too. I just wish they gave more attention to the physical component of the affliction of addiction (hey, that rhymes!)

[Duckfeet]

Thanks, Duck. I did not want this thread to ruin our friendship and it was really upsetting me that it seemed to be doing just that.

I just felt frustrated, because I really do try to back up every thing I say with facts and I just felt like no one was even reading anything I wrote. You likely felt the same way with the AA thing in the past.

Frankly, it's only been very recently that I stopped going to AA--basically because I felt like a big hypocrite. But I agree that the problem of MMT is much more pronounced at NA meetings. I switched to AA long ago because I felt more accepted there. Right now I am sitting next to a big pile of Grapevine magazines that I saw at an AA club next to where I work and I grabbed a bunch because I do still enjoy reading them--and I know that people DO put their lives back together in those places too. I just wish they gave more attention to the physical component of the affliction of addiction (hey, that rhymes!)

Yer right, kid, and I'm just all strung out again, and have been down this road so many fucking times that I tend to lash out at whatever's around me. I go to AA but feel lost there, too. Truth is, like I said on the other forum, if it worked so good, and I'm such a hot shot AA, why am I dusting off my spoon and running down to the needle exchange? When I was young I'd run far away, but I've already run every where I know. Oh well, now I wait.

[prettypoppy]

Damn, Duck, I really wish you could get on heroin maintenance. I have been blessed that MMT works pretty well for me as far as controlling the cravings, but it is not enough for some, I realize that, just as suboxone was not enough for ME. I hate like hell to see you having to suffer this way so needlessly, when you obviously would be able to function well on a steady supply of pharmaceutical heroin, uncut with crap and supplied in a sterile manner. It just sucks, and I'm very sorry. I hope you are able to find a way, buddy, I really do.

[Duckfeet]

Damn, Duck, I really wish you could get on heroin maintenance. I have been blessed that MMT works pretty well for me as far as controlling the cravings, but it is not enough for some, I realize that, just as suboxone was not enough for ME. I hate like hell to see you having to suffer this way so needlessly, when you obviously would be able to function well on a steady supply of pharmaceutical heroin, uncut with crap and supplied in a sterile manner. It just sucks, and I'm very sorry. I hope you are able to find a way, buddy, I really do.


thanks, I wish so, too. I don't romanticize it, either. Fortunately Nick, and others like him, have shared some of their experiences, and I know it's no "happiness" ticket, either, after initial feeling of having won the lottery.

biggest complication for me is simply am I willing to move across the world, start over one more time, leave Mom and my ex--who I still love--and all that behind. And the there is no guarantee I'd be able to get on it, anyway, as they don't give it to just anybody who asks for it over there, too.

I just got right. The boy I got out here came thru, and I'm no longer sick, but this always ends, and sometimes ends badly, so I have to try to find some new way out, and I'm out of ideas. Maybe move up to Vancouver, which is sort of a semi-solution, since they aren't so hard on addicts up there, there is available supply of fairly good street heroin, from what I hear, and of course they are--right now--having the heroin maintenance trials, so if ever there were hope, Vancouver is the supplier of it in this hemisphere. And that's close enough to V.A. hospital in Seattle, close enough to visit mom and Teresa occasionally, all that, so it seems another possibility.

But anyway, that'll sort out. Whenever I find myself on the opposite side from you of a spirited discussion about methadone maintenance I always check myself. I think you are correct in anything that matters, and give hope and substance to people on methadone maintenance. I've used your posts on endorphins to make points myself, and it opened doors to me and my thinking. And finally, I just plain *like* you, and I'm always happier when I know yer around. And *that* is more important to me than all the rest. Arguments come and go, and flames are easy enough to find, but friends I respect are in too short a supply for me to risk loosing one like you.

[Canis aureus]

Duck,

I don't know you well enough. But have you tried methadone thoroughgoingly? I remember that you didn't like it and switched to subutex. I was in subutex and it wasn't my thing at all.... I am or was surprised why you skipped to sub.... or I'm surprised when anybody uses it. It didn't do shit to me. I continued to use heroin and fentanyl when I was on it. And in methadone, if they wouldn't put me over that 150 or such I would have relapsed surely! And I am still in unsure would this dose keep me well... It is just so in Finland that I am on top doses now (and that scares me a bit)

I have used opiates 20 years... all my adult life -- or whatever that life is which begings from teen years. But for me methadone seems to work, it keeps me well right now, and nothing else matters or could much matter (my son does and things like that...). Anyway, heroin itself has never been my best pet. But I though t I could not get better than what I was, and I still did it.

So, is heroin just that what you want? Then you should get it...

What are the possibilities to get it, legally?

ARE THERE MEDICAL HEROIN ANYWHERE BESIDES UK?

[nick]

Duck,

I don't know you well enough. But have you tried methadone thoroughgoingly? I remember that you didn't like it and switched to subutex. I was in subutex and it wasn't my thing at all.... I am or was surprised why you skipped to sub.... or I'm surprised when anybody uses it. It didn't do shit to me. I continued to use heroin and fentanyl when I was on it. And in methadone, if they wouldn't put me over that 150 or such I would have relapsed surely! And I am still in unsure would this dose keep me well... It is just so in Finland that I am on top doses now (and that scares me a bit)

I have used opiates 20 years... all my adult life -- or whatever that life is which begings from teen years. But for me methadone seems to work, it keeps me well right now, and nothing else matters or could much matter (my son does and things like that...). Anyway, heroin itself has never been my best pet. But I though t I could not get better than what I was, and I still did it.

So, is heroin just that what you want? Then you should get it...

What are the possibilities to get it, legally?

ARE THERE MEDICAL HEROIN ANYWHERE BESIDES UK?
Yes;Switzerland,Netherands,Canada all definately have diamorphine programmes.Maybe Australia too.

[prettypoppy]

thanks, I wish so, too. I don't romanticize it, either. Fortunately Nick, and others like him, have shared some of their experiences, and I know it's no "happiness" ticket, either, after initial feeling of having won the lottery.

biggest complication for me is simply am I willing to move across the world, start over one more time, leave Mom and my ex--who I still love--and all that behind. And the there is no guarantee I'd be able to get on it, anyway, as they don't give it to just anybody who asks for it over there, too.

I just got right. The boy I got out here came thru, and I'm no longer sick, but this always ends, and sometimes ends badly, so I have to try to find some new way out, and I'm out of ideas. Maybe move up to Vancouver, which is sort of a semi-solution, since they aren't so hard on addicts up there, there is available supply of fairly good street heroin, from what I hear, and of course they are--right now--having the heroin maintenance trials, so if ever there were hope, Vancouver is the supplier of it in this hemisphere. And that's close enough to V.A. hospital in Seattle, close enough to visit mom and Teresa occasionally, all that, so it seems another possibility.

But anyway, that'll sort out. Whenever I find myself on the opposite side from you of a spirited discussion about methadone maintenance I always check myself. I think you are correct in anything that matters, and give hope and substance to people on methadone maintenance. I've used your posts on endorphins to make points myself, and it opened doors to me and my thinking. And finally, I just plain *like* you, and I'm always happier when I know yer around. And *that* is more important to me than all the rest. Arguments come and go, and flames are easy enough to find, but friends I respect are in too short a supply for me to risk loosing one like you.


Awww, Duck, god love ya.

I'm sorry we fought--let's kiss and make up, and get back to the biz of helping fellow victims of the war on drugs, including US!

And I admit--there's still a part of me, and always will be, I suspect, that, when I hear you say how you just "got right", etc, is a bit jealous. I miss the needle--not like I used to, not all day all the time, but just a twinge of wanting to see that flash in the needle that says relief is on it's way, aaaaaany second now.

Vancouver sounds like a good plan. But you can't get on the trials there unless you are a citizen and have lived in that one area for some time, can you? God, I hope we both live to see the day it is available. I really don't know what I would do if heroin maint. were offered to me. Well, hell, that's a lie--I'd snap it up in heartbeat--but would it be better for me? I really don't know. I know I am a lot healthier on MMT--both mentally and physically--than I was on heroin or hydros.

Anyhow, hugs to you, Duck, and thanks for the kind words.

[Narkotikon]

Yes, if you're talking about physical addiction. Your body is still dependent on opi-ates / -oids. Now if you're talking about psychological addiction, I would say it's iffier. The goal is to get enough done to prevent you from craving and to block other (illegal) opiates, but not enough to get you high or to be sedated. So, I'd say that you're still somewhat psychologically addicted, but not to the extent where you're craving and going out to score, because MMT is supposed to stop that.

[Duckfeet]

Yup, once we get past all the passion, there is a good reason threads like this never quite die. It's a fundamental question for many of us, and matters greatly to us how we perceive ourselves, and out relationship to opiates.

I've *never* been on doses higher than oh, I guess 130-150mg for maintenance purposes. And no, I've never stayed on it long enough to see if the initial physical problems would get better. My biggest one is constipation. I don't expect to get any kind of rush off mdone maint., so I'm never "disappointed." I mostly just get unhappier and unhappier, and after a while I switch off it.

The reason I haven't tried for increasingly higher doses, which I realize is how many of the people I admire--including Prettypoppy--got to a level where methadone actually works the way it is designed to, is just plain fear. I just hate all that loss of control over my personal life. I can intellectually come up with all kinds of "reasons" which help me overcome this fear, in my head, but I just have a gut level fear of needing so much methadone, that's really it. Probably the main reason I"ll never know, since once it quits working, I just start cheating. I think it's just a mental block, goes back to old days, when the clinic in Santa Ana, you know, all the old guys in the line, chatting, it just had "end of the line" written all over it, and everybody I know saw it as a dreadful copout to get on it. So I know I'll never give it a fair shake, and in the *short run*, I've always disliked the way it made me feel, and the side effects...

Getting on subs for second time was more to do with doc vs clinic, than any great attributes of buprenorphine, so who knows. I still hope I'll find a way to daily diarmorphine maint, but who knows.

Just had friend call me, says a bunch of us are going out bodysurfing. Big swell, 6-8ft faces...I'm in, so I'll see you all later!

[Narkotikon]

The reason I haven't tried for increasingly higher doses, which I realize is how many of the people I admire--including Prettypoppy--got to a level where methadone actually works the way it is designed to, is just plain fear. I just hate all that loss of control over my personal life. I can intellectually come up with all kinds of "reasons" which help me overcome this fear, in my head, but I just have a gut level fear of needing so much methadone, that's really it. Probably the main reason I"ll never know, since once it quits working, I just start cheating. I think it's just a mental block, goes back to old days, when the clinic in Santa Ana, you know, all the old guys in the line, chatting, it just had "end of the line" written all over it, and everybody I know saw it as a dreadful copout to get on it. So I know I'll never give it a fair shake, and in the *short run*, I've always disliked the way it made me feel, and the side effects...




I can see what you mean by that. I was getting too much, so I was sedated a large portion of the day, so that was the major problem. I couldn't ever get motivated enough to go out and do the stuff that my doctor and counselor said I should do. The other problem is that I felt like a slave. Get up, go dose, come home, go to bed, then do it over again. To me, it was the fact that I had to go in each day to get my dose and the fact that it wasn't really making me any better that I despised. It just seemed like a waste of time. I can't believe I spent 11 months there. I think that is why I skipped a lot. I actually felt better the day I missed: was more motivated, had more energy, ate less, etc. My dose was just too high.

[robojunkie]

I won't comment on anyone else as everyone is free to interpret "addiction" however they please. Obviously its physically addictive, and, for me personally, also psychologically addictive. While on it I would look forward to my dose after work (delayed it from the am just to have something, however weak, to look forward to). Not to the degree that H was but this is mostly due to 1) oral vs. needle and 2)Done just doesn't have the same feel as the morphine/thebaine derivatives. This isn't to say however that it wasn't extremely helpful over 8 years for me. But it was always, from the start a pragmatic thing. I've never seen anything wrong with using drugs in and of themselves...only when you're destroying yourself or not taking care of responsibilities. Since I was relatively young when I started (at least compared to those I knew at the time, not now though) I never had a good job, money, etc. So using illegal heroin with the relatively high prices (compared to what a generic drug dose is really worth) and the whole way the life sucks you in was destructive to me. Never could stop for any amount of time, especially in my city. So I went on the clinic, specifically cause I found out I was gonna have achild, and there was no kidding myself that "oh yeah NA or willpower or some fucking miracle will keep me stratight".

While there I managed to get my shit together, get out of my town, go back to college then grad school and be responsible and get shit done that needed to be done. However I don't think there's anything special about done (other than the fact that it was legal, cheap and was an assured constant supply) that allowed me to do this. If they gave out oxymorphone, levorphanol or diamorphine (with syringes) I firmly believe the results would have been the same, if not better, as those I got from the clinic (assuming you are allowed to reach the right dose, just like on methadone). The whole thing about methadone "stabilizing" socially/economically/neurochemically/etc, however is a purely legal/artificial concept. It stabilizes neurochemically because you have a constant supply of the opioid. It stablilizes socially/economically because you don't have to hussle/steal/etc to keep right and you're not always bouncing from high to sick whenever connections/money run dry.

Don't get me wrong, in the current political/legal climate methadone is by far the best option for us "hope to die" junkies, but imagine if someone like Nixon, who really, from a political standpoint as a right wing guy, legitimized methadone and funded it, had decided to try it with heroin? Or if "heroin" was just too demonized a buzzword (and Schedule I makes it difficult/impossible), hydromorphone or oxymorphone? MMT wasn't originally a "harm reduction" policy, didn't even exist then. It was a "get the crime rate down" policy. And it worked. But I'd bet a diamorphine clinic would have worked far better for both purposes.

If nothing else at least I would have been able to shite in the morning!

[prettypoppy]

. The other problem is that I felt like a slave. Get up, go dose, come home, go to bed, then do it over again. To me, it was the fact that I had to go in each day to get my dose and the fact that it wasn't really making me any better that I despised. .


Did you never get any takehomes? I have been on the clinic just over 2 years and I get 21 TH's at a time. I go in every 3 weeks.

And at my clinic, I do see some sad looking folks--BUT I also see some real happy looking folks. One lady has a toddler daughter (born while she was on MMT) and she and the baby both just glow with happiness. That baby is dressed to the nines every time I see her, and mom just beams with pride. And I talk to people who have finally gotten jobs and begun to put their lives back together, finish school, actually plan and complete a trip out of the country, etc . But then these same people say "I feel so much better on MMT, and I want to stay on it, but my mom (my dad, my girlfriend, my employer, my doctor, my therapist, my using buddies, whoever) say it's bad for me and that I am just trading one addiction for another, so I guess I better hurry up and get off." And then we get to watch them go out and relapse and hope they come back before they die. One guy was a single father to a 10 year old daughter, doing GREAT on MMT. He had been totally lost as a street heroin user prior to MMT, and now he was working and taking care of his kid and doing really well. BUT--he wanted to do better, so he applied to the state rehab commission for assistance to go back to school. They said sure--as soon as you get off that nasty MMT. He was crushed--but he wanted to do better by his little girl, so he tapered off quickly, and got his assistance to attend school.

3 months later, his daughter came home to find him dead in the bathroom with a syringe in his arm.

Another guy, a methadone advocate named Walter Ginter, tells his tory in the added feature "addiction 101" on the DVD release of "Methadonia". He says he was doing great on MMT, but his boss, who knew about it, disapproved. He said "Walter, you don't need that stuff--that's a junky drug! If you quit taking it, I'll give you that promotion you wanted!" So, he thought, well, heck, maybe he's right. He tapered off, and got his promotion. 3 months later--he relapsed.

That is the stuff that makes me sad. Iknow that most of you guys here are not even saying that anyone should get off MMT,so I'm not sure why I wrote it--I just hate to see new, vulnerable people come into MMT and get exposed to so much negativity, hate and stigma on top of all the clinic BS. Maybe when some of you were on a clinic, the rules about takehomes were more strict--but now you can earn monthly takehomes in as little as 2 years.

[Narkotikon]

^^^^^^^ No. I never got any take homes. The clinic I was at had a 90 day rule: you had to be clean for 90 days and come consequtively for 90 days, then you got one take home. They were open on Sundays, so there wasn't any kind of Sunday / closed day take home. I did get take homes for the holidays (Christmas, Memorial Day, Fourth of July, Labor Day), but that's it. My problem wasn't the drug screens. In the beginning I still used pod tea, then when that had no affect anymore, I did coke once a week for about six weeks, then from the beginning of April until September I was fine with screens. I started using pod tea in September again when I was detoxing. My problem was being too sedated, and wanting to sleep in or go home, so I would skip, and that would count against the 90 day thing. Also, I couldn't get a take home for going home to my mother's, because the clinic in Cincinnati didn't go above 100, and I was at 140. The next closest one was in Indiana, and that was like an hours drive in the morning. I know people sometimes have to drive, but it just seemed excessive, because it took me 5-10 minutes in the morning to get to the clinic I was at.

Edit: Oh, and I don't have any negative feelings about MMT. I still believe in it. I just didn't like the doctor because, at the end, he was telling me that it was my fault it didn't work. And I'm like, you keep telling me that I need more because I keep telling you I'm tired, which was true. I'd never taken done before. I was expecting something energetic like morphine. It just made me fat and tired. So, I didn't really like the doctor, but I don't have anything against MMT. I kind of wish I could go back, but this time I would state that I in no way at all want to go above 100.

[prettypoppy]

This probably would not apply to you, but it did make me think of it. Sometimes, when people on MMT are overly tired or nod a lot, it CAN mean that they are underdosed. If they are going into mild w/d's every night, they likely do not sleep well at night. Then, when they dose in the mornings, they feel relief, so they fall asleep (finally) and are "noddy" all day--until it starts wearing off again. Basically it mixes up their sleep cycles. When they are adequately dosed and start sleeping well at night, they have energy all day and feel much more alert.

I will say that not all opiates act the same. Hydrocodone and Demerol both gave me tons of energy and made me chatty. Heroin, morphine and methadone were more sedating for me. I do miss the rush of energy I got with hydros, but I know that it went beyond what was normal and into extremes (cleaning out the kids' sock drawers at 3am; never letting a single load of laundry accrue, etc). Methadone is surely not as much "fun", but it does what I need it to do to function normally.

Since my first day at the clinic (this time) I have not used, nor have I missed a single day of dosing, so the system has not been overly burdensome on me. I was ready to stop using--I NEEDED to stop using--but I couldn't stop. Methadone gave me the ability to "just say no". The first time around, I often missed days--it was a royal pain to drive way down there and get bitched out for pissing dirty and threatened with a feetox for not paying, etc, and I really just wanted to do my heroin and be let alone. This time it has been completely different. I really never gave it a proper chance last time.

My husband was slowly tapering off MMT while I was incarcerated for 17 months. I was very jealous that he did not get busted by HIS P.O., so he got to stay home with our baby while I spent a year and a half in jail/prison, and had to undergo a CT detox from both heroin and methadone in jail. When he would visit me every week, I would rag on him about getting off the methadone. He would call it his medicine, and I would scoff in true 12 step fashion and say "It is NOT "medicine"! It's DOPE and you are still using!" And I totally believed that, too, because that was how it seemed to me after my brief experience with it. Now that I have learned so much more about it, and really gave it a fair shake, I see how wriong I was.

[Duckfeet]

Did you never get any takehomes? I have been on the clinic just over 2 years and I get 21 TH's at a time. I go in every 3 weeks.

<snip>


That is the stuff that makes me sad. Iknow that most of you guys here are not even saying that anyone should get off MMT,so I'm not sure why I wrote it--I just hate to see new, vulnerable people come into MMT and get exposed to so much negativity, hate and stigma on top of all the clinic BS. Maybe when some of you were on a clinic, the rules about takehomes were more strict--but now you can earn monthly takehomes in as little as 2 years.

You're right. Many lives have been saved by methadone maintenance. Most of us who do *not* like mmt with any good conscience make sure that we describe our own experiences as personal ones. I myself try to steer people who I think are inundated with negativity over to Watchdog, where support for methadone maintenance is the norm. I've yet to find a neutral website. Opiophile is actually as close as I've found. Heroin-detox.com being anti-methadone maintenance, and readybb.com/watchdog being pro-methadone maintenance. Neither site, of course, sees themself that way. It's a hard fact to face, but most people don't care what the science is, and find it dubious at best. Most of us go on personal experience and what we see. When someone tells me they have been on methadone maintenance for years, have not gained huge amounts of weight, and are reasonably happy with their lives, I really do pay attention. That is why you and others I've met on Watchdog have been such eye-openers. It's a bad place to be pro-AA, or anti-methadone maintenance, but I figure you'all are a bit beleaguered by assaults by people on other sites, and need a place to be safe, and maybe even to let off a little steam.

I agree that most of the negative stories like mine are from people like me who have been unwilling to chance going up to the high dose that might actually do me some good. For the simple reason--seems obvious to me--that if I'm right, and it *doesn't* work, then I have huge habit beyond belief, and I have a feeling it would just destroy me. It's unfortunate that there is no other way to find out. Because, again, the only thing I trust are the individual stories, and really, we generally ask the same questions: How long have you been on it? What dose? Do you feel o.k. now? How is the constipation? How is the weight gain? So it's always personal. The consequences are just way too severe for any of us to trust theory. Has to be personal stories that seem credible, to get my attention. Some find this hugely irritating. I've just studied too much myself, written research papers, to trust it too much. The web has been lifesaving in that we can here more stories, make our own decisions.

Best wishes.

[prettypoppy]

True enough, Duck. And I agree with you--personal stories, from people you know, and what is seen with your own eyes make the biggest impression. That's one reason we are putting together a pamphlet called "The Faces of MMT" with photos and short blurbs about how MMT has helped us. I think it will give a braoder perspective. Here's a link:

http://www.theredbirdboutique.com/MAT_project/

(I'm the second one from the top)

Let me know what you think about it, ok?

[stick+lick]

I gave up on this thread a while ago because it's just so dang pointless to debate something that is so intimate and unique to each individuals perception. The truth here is that there IS no "correct" answer to this question....there are only points of view from personal experience. I KNOW the difference between the way I feel either actively using illict opiates or completely FREE of opioids and both SUCK ASS.....methadone is my happy medium. The first and ONLY antidepressant that has worked for me and a "magical" like property that simply removes all primal urges to use opiates. I know with my MIND and SOUL that I could be maintained on heroin and still be very much addicted, but on methadone I am simply dependent on it. The difference for ME comes from the absence of wanting MORE MORE MORE which only methadone has afforded me.

Now, this isn't a moral issue for me in the least.....I am ACTIVELY addicted to cigs and caffeine and will never find this less immoral than my use of heroin or methadone.

WHAT I do find interesting is the fact that some posters seem to be jumping on people who have my particular opinion and calling them "defensive"--but the truth is, these posters are just AS defensive of their OWN opinion, otherwise it wouldn't irritate you SO much that someone else has a different perception or circumstance than you have or had????? Maybe if those of us with the opinion that addiction and dependency are two very different beasts need to look at our "denial" than those who believe this is all semantics need to review why something so arbitrary bugs them so much that they feel they must "call" a poster "out" about it?

Just food for thought.

Personally, I started posting to offer my experience, not to debate whether its reality or not.

[stick+lick]

I have a good question that is sure to add a ding into the coversation.

Because of the way that Suboxone (aka buprenorphine) has been promoted as "medicinal" the general public doesn't see it as carrying another addiction as they do methadone.

So is someone on buprenorphine actively addicted-or is it different than methadone.

If you think it's Different-can you pin point one good reason WHY you think this way, other than it's not as "strong" an opioid as methadone?

[nick]

I think subs and done add up to the same thing in relation to this discussion,but as you say it's a personal thing.I don't consider what you say to be wrong.I just don't agree with you and if you look at the figures niether do 85%.
This doesn't invalidate your opinion.

[AWOL]

Addicted and dependant are the same fucking thing, one just sounds prettier and has flowers attached to it. If you don't believe me, check the thesaurus.

http://encarta.msn.com/thesaurus_561564527/addiction.html


It's like calling a kid retarded, vs specially-abled. They're both correct, but one has butterflies and fairies dancing around it.

[Canis aureus]

Hey all,

I just want to answer to those queastions Duckfeet asked:

I'm now on lowest possible dose wher I feel normal (165 or 170mgs), I haven't gained weight (but am near 100 kg) I'm as happy as I could be, work 40 hours a week, plus university. I have son... All is as fine as things can be right now...

[prettypoppy]

Addicted and dependant are the same fucking thing, one just sounds prettier and has flowers attached to it. If you don't believe me, check the thesaurus.

http://encarta.msn.com/thesaurus_561564527/addiction.html


It's like calling a kid retarded, vs specially-abled. They're both correct, but one has butterflies and fairies dancing around it.


ADDICTION
Addiction is a primary, chronic, neurobiologicneurobiological disease, with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. It is characterized by behaviors that include one or more of the following: impaired control over drug use, compulsive use, continued use despite harm, and craving.
PHYSICAL DEPENDENCE
Physical dependence is a state of adaptation that often includes tolerance and is manifested by a drug class specific withdrawal syndrome that can be produced by abrupt cessation, rapid dose reduction, decreasing blood level of the drug, and/or administration of an antagonist.
In the case of sedative drugs, spontaneous withdrawal may occur with continued use. Tolerance Tolerance is a state of adaptation in which exposure to a drug induces changes that result in a diminution of one or more of the drug's effects over time.


Behaviors suggestive of addiction may include: inability to take medications according to an agreed upon schedule, taking multiple doses together, frequent reports of lost or stolen prescriptions, doctor shopping, isolation from family and friends and/or use of non-prescribed psychoactive drugs in addition to prescribed medications. Other behaviors which may raise concern are the use of analgesic medications for other than analgesic effects, such as sedation, an increase in energy, a decrease in anxiety, or intoxication; non-compliance with recommended non-opioid treatments or evaluations; insistence on rapid-onset formulations/routes of administration; or reports of no relief whatsoever by any non-opioid treatments. Adverse consequences of addictive use of medications may include persistent sedation or intoxication due to overuse; increasing functional impairment and other medical complications; psychological manifestations such as irritability, apathy, anxiety or depression; or adverse legal, economic or social consequences. Common and expected side effects of the medications, such as constipation or sedation due to use of prescribed doses, are not viewed as adverse consequences in this context. It should be emphasized that no single event is diagnostic of addictive disorder. Rather, the diagnosis is made in response to a pattern of behavior that usually becomes obvious over time.

Physical dependence on and tolerance to prescribed drugs do not constitute sufficient evidence of psychoactive substance use disorder or addiction. They are normal responses that often occur with the persistent use of certain medications. Physical dependence may develop with chronic use of many classes of medications. These include beta blockers, alpha-2 adrenergic agents, corticosteroids, antidepressants and other medications that are not associated with addictive disorders
http://forum.opiophile.org/images/gnome/statusicon/user_online.gif http://forum.opiophile.org/images/gnome/buttons/reputation.gif (http://forum.opiophile.org/reputation.php?p=73928) vbrep_register("73928") http://forum.opiophile.org/images/gnome/buttons/report.gif (http://forum.opiophile.org/report.php?p=73928)

[Duckfeet]

First of all, I'm *not* opposed to methadone maintenance. My troubles are *personal* ones, not opposition to the whole program. I never try to talk people into it, or off of it. I don't make fun of Alcoholics Anonymous either. Or church. Or active use of opiates, or stopping on one's own. Problems usually arise when someone presumes that any one of these areas is o.k. to trash.

When everybody shows that mininum amount of respect for other people's paths, these discussions usually stay civil. The original question, posted a long time ago, was whether or not we considered someone on methadone "addicted." These were just opinions on this one item, no big deal. Obviously we all see it differently. No mystery there.

The best thing I can do, for me, is not to take other people's opinions about methadone maintenance as personal insults. Everybody isn't going to like the path I'm on, or believe what I believe. I fall short, but I do try to be respectful of other people's paths. We have enough burdens on our backs, thanks to opiate addiction, that we don't really need to add to them by treating other people's opinions with disdain. Forgive me if I have done this, as some of you have really helped me immensely in my own struggles to find a way out of this hell, and shame on me if I forget that.

Best wishes everybody, however you find that bit of wind for your sails.

[nick]

I agree.One can be dependent without being addicted,but if you're addicted you are dependent.The bottom line is stop taking the done and after 36 odd hours it's academic.
I think done is an important tool in treating addiction and if it works for people that's great,but done should not be the default drug of treatment.If it doesn't work why not prescribe morphine or diamorphine or any other analgesic?
I thought the point of maintenence was to get people stable and the best way to do this is full compliance.

[AWOL]

ADDICTION
Addiction is a primary, chronic, neurobiologicneurobiological disease, with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. It is characterized by behaviors that include one or more of the following: impaired control over drug use, compulsive use, continued use despite harm, and craving.
PHYSICAL DEPENDENCE
Physical dependence is a state of adaptation that often includes tolerance and is manifested by a drug class specific withdrawal syndrome that can be produced by abrupt cessation, rapid dose reduction, decreasing blood level of the drug, and/or administration of an antagonist.
In the case of sedative drugs, spontaneous withdrawal may occur with continued use. Tolerance Tolerance is a state of adaptation in which exposure to a drug induces changes that result in a diminution of one or more of the drug's effects over time.


Behaviors suggestive of addiction may include: inability to take medications according to an agreed upon schedule, taking multiple doses together, frequent reports of lost or stolen prescriptions, doctor shopping, isolation from family and friends and/or use of non-prescribed psychoactive drugs in addition to prescribed medications. Other behaviors which may raise concern are the use of analgesic medications for other than analgesic effects, such as sedation, an increase in energy, a decrease in anxiety, or intoxication; non-compliance with recommended non-opioid treatments or evaluations; insistence on rapid-onset formulations/routes of administration; or reports of no relief whatsoever by any non-opioid treatments. Adverse consequences of addictive use of medications may include persistent sedation or intoxication due to overuse; increasing functional impairment and other medical complications; psychological manifestations such as irritability, apathy, anxiety or depression; or adverse legal, economic or social consequences. Common and expected side effects of the medications, such as constipation or sedation due to use of prescribed doses, are not viewed as adverse consequences in this context. It should be emphasized that no single event is diagnostic of addictive disorder. Rather, the diagnosis is made in response to a pattern of behavior that usually becomes obvious over time.

Physical dependence on and tolerance to prescribed drugs do not constitute sufficient evidence of psychoactive substance use disorder or addiction. They are normal responses that often occur with the persistent use of certain medications. Physical dependence may develop with chronic use of many classes of medications. These include beta blockers, alpha-2 adrenergic agents, corticosteroids, antidepressants and other medications that are not associated with addictive disorders
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Who wrote this? It sounds like it came straight out of a brochure for a methadone clinic. I still say the two words are synonymous as per a thessaurus, but it's just symantics really. I don't care what anyone cares to call themself.

[Canis aureus]

well, and I could understand if methadone is not for all opiate addictions. But for me it was miraculous... I saw it immediately when it worked, and had to fight damn much to get somewhat adequate dose. That is the reason why I tend to get tempered when people are talking too high doses (I have fighted for each extra 5mgs, I started from 70mgs and have gotten 100 more; it is 20 X 5mgs). And all what I could say is. It worked for me and it works right now, and I am not hellishly overweighted or sedated at all (slightly wide I have always been, but am not sedated at all, too awake rather).

Bit off topic this all has gotten lately, but I believe we need more words sometimes ;)

[Duckfeet]

It's another reason I tend to respect personal stories, goofy though they may be, over scientific papers. Throughout the last one hundedred years, they keep coming up with new theories on opiate addiction. Like most, I tend to gravitate towards the papers which support my opinion, and disregard the ones I don't like. Or blame them on the republicans, or "right wing" thinking, or whatever pejorative is popular.

But if I share my *opinion* which is that it's all just vocabulary, new words to describe same old behavior, new metaphors, then I've just pissed someone off again. But it is how I see things, and no one wants their opinion to be discounted. But it's a touchy subject, since I *also* believe that how we *see* ourselves has *something* to do with the vocabulary we use. Which is why there is a movement to insist that people use the "correct" vocabulary when describing their doper lives. Since these people *seriously* want us to see addiction as a disease. (Big money afoot). And methadone/buprenorphine maintenance is the best "cure," they take great steps to get lames like me to use the right terminology. But my libertarian ass *balks* at this maneuvering, and I fight back, by using same tired old junky vocabulary just to be irritable, and to do my small bit to stop this "diseasing" of America. Yeah, I'm one of *those!* I'm not *sick*, I'm strung out!

But that takes me right back to my differing opinion. If I accept the new vocabulary, then I know that means that I also accept the "disease" concept when referring to my same old strung out self.

So, sad to say it, but put me and the methadonians in a jail cell for 72 hours and all that vocabulary goes out the window, and we all just strung out junkies again, fighting over who gets the top bunk...

[AWOL]

I certainly see what you mean. Sick, or strung out. Gay or alternative lifestyle. Retarded or specialy-abled. Addict, or dependant. As per a thesaurus all of those words are synonymous, but in practice one holds a negative connotation a lot of the time, so of course we'd prefer to be called one way over the other. Or to broaden, or change how they are defined. Like how I am an opiate enthusiast, and not a Junky because junkies are addicted and I'm just dependant.

Makes sense though, I see why it ruffles feathers. I can see why to push for one word and not the other if you consider connotations.

[Narkotikon]

well, and I could understand if methadone is not for all opiate addictions. But for me it was miraculous... I saw it immediately when it worked, and had to fight damn much to get somewhat adequate dose. That is the reason why I tend to get tempered when people are talking too high doses (I have fighted for each extra 5mgs, I started from 70mgs and have gotten 100 more; it is 20 X 5mgs). And all what I could say is. It worked for me and it works right now, and I am not hellishly overweighted or sedated at all (slightly wide I have always been, but am not sedated at all, too awake rather).

Bit off topic this all has gotten lately, but I believe we need more words sometimes ;)

It really depends on the clinic. I was a private one and most of the people there were at least on 100, if not more. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be able to get their required dose, but I also think they should do more not to overmedicate people. I mean, aside from troughs, it's kind of hard to do. For me, I kept telling the doctor that I was really tired during the day and slept a lot, and that I had no movitvation or energy. He kept telling me I needed more, but the more I got, the more tired I became. That was my only problem.

Now, if you're talking about public clinics, I've heard of places that have dose caps, which I don't see how that can be legal, because I thought everyone was supposed to be able to find their dose. The public clinic in Cincinnati had a dose cap of 100. I think that's partly why lots of people drove an hour away to Indiana to the private clinic, and because they had a more liberal take-home policy.

But yeah, I think everyone should be able to find their dose. I'm sorry you had to fight, but it is a fact that some people get to much. Why would that fact make you mad? I mean, don't blame the patient. Well, maybe sometimes. But blame the clinic for overmedicating people.

[kyuss]

The answer
is Yes.

[prettypoppy]

. I mean, aside from troughs, it's kind of hard to do.

Now, if you're talking about public clinics, I've heard of places that have dose caps, which I don't see how that can be legal, because I thought everyone was supposed to be able to find their dose. The public clinic in Cincinnati had a dose cap of 100..

About peak and trough tests: They have been found to be ineffective for anything but determining the need for a split dose. The reason is, in the USA the methadone is a mixture of racemic (active) and non racemic (inactive). The test does not differentiate between types. Therefore, depending on how you metabolize and absorb it, the test may show that you have an adequate amount of methadone in your bloodstream when in fact it is the INactive methadone that is mostly showing up on the test, and you may be very low on ACTIVE methadone--but the test can tell it. I have seen so many people trying to get raises, sick as dogs, sneezing, freezing, watery eyed, wrecks, and the doc will charge them a hundred bucks or more for the test and then actually DECREASE their dose, saying they are on too much! Many clinics, including mine, no longer use them for this reason, and instead rely on subjective and objective symptoms and nurse observations.

As for dose capse, both accrediting agencies, CARF and JCAHO (I always misspell that one--anyhow, all clinics are accredited by one or the other), state that clinics can NOT have dose caps. I believe it is also in the federal regs. However, many clinics continue the practice by having what is referred to as "silent dose caps". This is where they make it almost impossible to get a raise over a certain amount, by requiring expensive and unnecessary tests, taking away TH doses for anyone over 100mg, and all kinds of sneaky ways to discourage it. Clinics know that their patient population is not likely to be really well versed in policy and law as it relates to MMT and even more unlikely to chance upsetting the clinic staff when they need their meds so badly, so they keep doing it. However, if anyone were to report them to their accrediting agency, the agency will come and do an investigation, and if it is found that no one (or almost no one) is over a certain dose (whatever their dose cap is), they will fine them and force them to comply or pull their accreditation. You can report them anonymously at any time. Also, when they come to do their inspection every 2 years, the clinic HAS toput a sign up announcing the visit and telling patients how to get in touch with investigators prior to the inspection if they want to report anything, so keep your eyes out for that.

[stick+lick]

I thought the point of maintenence was to get people stable and the best way to do this is full compliance.

I agree--what I am saying is that for me stability would be impossible with dope or other short actings.

In the first trials of methadone they tried heroin and morphine maintenance FIRST and found that it didn't work mostly because the subjects either spent their time nodding or panting for their next dose.....only with methadone did the subjects in the trial start to do other things besides concentrate on the drugs they were getting. I think in the article I read they said one guy started to paint again and another guy went back to work?

I think I could possibly be maintained on a long acting morphine-mostly cuz I don't like morphine's high....but I still think there is something just "different" about 'done that makes ones mind FINALLY stop thinking about using???? Of course, for many

[nick]

I agree--what I am saying is that for me stability would be impossible with dope or other short actings.

In the first trials of methadone they tried heroin and morphine maintenance FIRST and found that it didn't work mostly because the subjects either spent their time nodding or panting for their next dose.....only with methadone did the subjects in the trial start to do other things besides concentrate on the drugs they were getting. I think in the article I read they said one guy started to paint again and another guy went back to work?

I think I could possibly be maintained on a long acting morphine-mostly cuz I don't like morphine's high....but I still think there is something just "different" about 'done that makes ones mind FINALLY stop thinking about using???? Of course, for many
As I said I was maintained on diamorphine after methadone failed for me.Another 500 lucky addicts are maintained on diamorphine and there is set to be an increase in diamorphine prescribing in the UK
Diamorphine is only given to long term addicts methadone doesn't work for and lets face facts there are many addicts methadone doesn't work for.
On an appropriate does of diamorphine long term addicts function well.Frankly my personal experience and that of virtually all the diamorphine addicts I know give the lie to the study you cite.

[Duckfeet]

After I posted this morning, I rode up the coast to Moms in Oceanside. I was thinking about this shit all day, and the fact I'm down to one shot of H for a while. Trying to save it til morning. 35 years at this game, and that's still the hardest thing of all.

But how we see ourselves, what we are, it's obvious--to me, anyway--that it *is* a big deal to us, it's just sad we don't agree on what that is. I don't know why it matters so much to me. It's the one thing where I throw all my rules of online behavior out the window, get over-passionate. I don't know why I even give a shit that much. Probably because I've spent so much time trying to defend myself to inlaws and judges and stuff. And to try to be honest to myself anyway, since lies and delusions are so much a part of this world I inhabit. And yet I see people in the "other" camp, being just as honest and self-examining, which makes me wonder...

Whatever the reasons, I've failed always at mmt, so it's back to subs to me soon. I agree with a lot of the posters on the probabilities of diamorphine maintenance not working for me either. I guess I just want the chance. To see if I could be all right ever in this world any way at all.

Best wishes...

[prettypoppy]

I sure hope you get that chance, Duck.

So, why are you going back on subs? I'm curious--in what way does it seem to work better than MMT? Or is it just that you can get it out of your system faster to feel the heroin if you want to? (I don't mean that in an ugly way or anything--just honestly wondering if that is why?) My husband was a 26 year heroin addict (IV) who was on and off methadone most of that time (always on a really low dose), and he has been clean from everything for 5 years now, and he always says the only way he would use again is if he could be guaranteed an endless supply for life!:)

[Duckfeet]

I sure hope you get that chance, Duck.

So, why are you going back on subs? I'm curious--in what way does it seem to work better than MMT? Or is it just that you can get it out of your system faster to feel the heroin if you want to? (I don't mean that in an ugly way or anything--just honestly wondering if that is why?) My husband was a 26 year heroin addict (IV) who was on and off methadone most of that time (always on a really low dose), and he has been clean from everything for 5 years now, and he always says the only way he would use again is if he could be guaranteed an endless supply for life!:)

No, I think I first tried it when I was trying to detox methadone a few months ago. I got down to no dope at all pretty easily on subs, but then had that same old depressed life sucks feeling, and I couldn't seem to shake it. I actually prefer methadone to subs because methadone for me gets rid of the cravings *and* the withdrawal symptoms. while subs--to me--just get rid of the withdrawal symptoms, (I still crave). But the main reason is that I can go to a private doc and get them, avoid the whole hassle of the clinic deal, which takes a while, you know, for takehomes and such. this doc I see once a month, fifty bucks and cost of script, and he gives me subutex and I'm out of there, no questions, no forced AA, none of that. Little teeny pills I can throw in my dresser once a month a *lot* easier than mdone setup.

I know your questions are sincere, I try to answer the same. The heroin thing is like, I just get tired of the whole fight, fight, fight...and just want to *feel* better, and heroin, of course, works just fine on that. Main thing is I'm just older and have 2 strikes already, so can't just jump back into *that* scene without facing reality, which for me could be grim. Why I try to figure what my chances are of diamorphine maint, if I actually made move somewhere in UK...but there is no guarantee. Naturally I hope something might come of this NAOMI thing up in Canada, or even more I read about that city up there, more it sounds like possible reasonable bet, since I'd still be close enough to visit down here once in a while, after six months if they restart NAOMI I might be elegible, and it seems like city where my past might not be held against me if I copped periodically. Sounds like there is reasonable availability of decent H, and users are criminally left alone, what I read, and if it ever *were* to get going, as far as maintenance, I'm sure that Vancouver is city where it will begin. But I don't fantasize about any of this, I've been around too long.

I just am trying to get my mind around the idea I can't go back to happy c&s, it just isn't there for me, anymore, without opiates, which is why your posting on permanent changes in endorphins, opiate receptors was heartening to me. I can't even post that on some other forums without everybody trying to get me back in some kind of 12 step dealie again--I know you don't do that, and I appreciate it--so I have to find some kind of opiate replacement, and I have not got one yet I can stand, so I'm a bit up against it, at least that's how I feel lately. Take care....

[Dolophine]

In my experience, Methadone has been MUCH MORE ADDICTIVE than the original drugs I had been using. OXY, MORPHINE, HYDROMORPHONE, DEMEROL. I find Methadone to be much more Euphoric and godly than anything else out there. Which is strange.

It's definitely addicting and your addicted if your on it. UNLESS, you are just taking the same amount everyday and never increasing for jollies or taking any other pills that get you high. You are DEPENDANT if you just take a certain amount everyday only. But if you ever get high on anything opiate or opioid you are an addict. Even if you get high on your Meth you are definitely and addict. When you stop using to get high, you are no longer an addict even if your on meth.

[nick]

Swapping H for methadone is like swapping beer for vodka.Let's face it,after a bottle of vodka who needs or wants beer.
I think one of the reasons high methadone scripts are a two edged sword is a large methadone habit can be so much harder to kick.
I know many docs consider a harm reduction approach to prescribing is to keep the addict comfortable and then give them the best chance to quit.

[prettypoppy]

It's definitely addicting and your addicted if your on it. UNLESS, you are just taking the same amount everyday and never increasing for jollies or taking any other pills that get you high. You are DEPENDANT if you just take a certain amount everyday only. But if you ever get high on anything opiate or opioid you are an addict. Even if you get high on your Meth you are definitely and addict. When you stop using to get high, you are no longer an addict even if your on meth.

This is pretty much what I think, though in more detail. But again, if you define "addict" as someone who is going to go into withdrawals when their medication is withheld, then yes, I'm an addict you're an addict he's an addict she's an addict wouldn't you like to be an addict too? Be an addict; drink Dr. Addict---oh wait, that's Dr. Pepper. Oh well.

[prettypoppy]

No, I think I first tried it when I was trying to detox methadone a few months ago. I got down to no dope at all pretty easily on subs, but then had that same old depressed life sucks feeling, and I couldn't seem to shake it. I actually prefer methadone to subs because methadone for me gets rid of the cravings *and* the withdrawal symptoms. while subs--to me--just get rid of the withdrawal symptoms, (I still crave). But the main reason is that I can go to a private doc and get them, avoid the whole hassle of the clinic deal, which takes a while, you know, for takehomes and such. this doc I see once a month, fifty bucks and cost of script, and he gives me subutex and I'm out of there, no questions, no forced AA, none of that. Little teeny pills I can throw in my dresser once a month a *lot* easier than mdone setup.

I know your questions are sincere, I try to answer the same. The heroin thing is like, I just get tired of the whole fight, fight, fight...and just want to *feel* better, and heroin, of course, works just fine on that. Main thing is I'm just older and have 2 strikes already, so can't just jump back into *that* scene without facing reality, which for me could be grim. Why I try to figure what my chances are of diamorphine maint, if I actually made move somewhere in UK...but there is no guarantee. Naturally I hope something might come of this NAOMI thing up in Canada, or even more I read about that city up there, more it sounds like possible reasonable bet, since I'd still be close enough to visit down here once in a while, after six months if they restart NAOMI I might be elegible, and it seems like city where my past might not be held against me if I copped periodically. Sounds like there is reasonable availability of decent H, and users are criminally left alone, what I read, and if it ever *were* to get going, as far as maintenance, I'm sure that Vancouver is city where it will begin. But I don't fantasize about any of this, I've been around too long.

I just am trying to get my mind around the idea I can't go back to happy c&s, it just isn't there for me, anymore, without opiates, which is why your posting on permanent changes in endorphins, opiate receptors was heartening to me. I can't even post that on some other forums without everybody trying to get me back in some kind of 12 step dealie again--I know you don't do that, and I appreciate it--so I have to find some kind of opiate replacement, and I have not got one yet I can stand, so I'm a bit up against it, at least that's how I feel lately. Take care....

So if you COULD get methadone the same way you get the subs, you'd stay on that instead?

Have you ever considered moving somewhere with an OBOT program? NY, say, or Baltimore?

[stick+lick]

In my experience, Methadone has been MUCH MORE ADDICTIVE than the original drugs I had been using. OXY, MORPHINE, HYDROMORPHONE, DEMEROL. I find Methadone to be much more Euphoric and godly than anything else out there. Which is strange.

It's definitely addicting and your addicted if your on it. UNLESS, you are just taking the same amount everyday and never increasing for jollies or taking any other pills that get you high. You are DEPENDANT if you just take a certain amount everyday only. But if you ever get high on anything opiate or opioid you are an addict. Even if you get high on your Meth you are definitely and addict. When you stop using to get high, you are no longer an addict even if your on meth.

I don't nessecarily think that getting "high" on methadone makes one a "methadone addict"--I think it's the CHASE that makes someone an addict. What I mean is, if someone gets high off their dose and then spends the rest of their day counting the seconds until they can dose and do it again--well hell yeah they are addicted! But even if a person on maintenance got high off their dose for an hour or two and then went on with their day like a normal bloak they are simply dependent???? It's like drinking a beer or two and getting a buzz on...doesn't mean your a drunk if you can do it a couple times a month and not even think about it in between?

Also--the few times I have had to go without my dose for a couple of days the only thing on my mind was the fact that it might be a chance for me to break thru the blockade and get high on something "good"--thats how I know methadone isn't a "problem" for me in the same way.

[stick+lick]

Swapping H for methadone is like swapping beer for vodka.Let's face it,after a bottle of vodka who needs or wants beer.
I think one of the reasons high methadone scripts are a two edged sword is a large methadone habit can be so much harder to kick.
I know many docs consider a harm reduction approach to prescribing is to keep the addict comfortable and then give them the best chance to quit.

I think that is one of our biggest problems as addicts....we spend most of our lives trying to "kick" the habit.....thinking "if I could just get past the SICK I will be ok!"....."If I could just STOP taking drugs life will be OK again". Our entire focus is on stopping our use, but if addiction is hurting your life using drugs is actually the only time we get RELIEF from addiction. Addiction is about how awful a person feels when they aren't using AND the bad things that happen BECAUSE of using. We focus on stopping our drug USE instead of stopping the way drug use has left us feeling: empty, consumed, RAW, bored and lonely.

My recovery is about eliminating as many of those symptoms as I can, for as long as I can. It's about controlling those feelings so that I can live my life.....I had to stop focusing on ending my "drug use" because it wasn't even the problem anymore. We are HUMAN....we can only take misery for so long and we only get one life. Why would I want to waste it spending my day being so horribly miserable when I know there is a way to make it go away?

[stick+lick]

PS--trading methadone for dope isn't like trading vodka for beer---it's more like trading in your cigs for nicorette gum??? If a person had to stay on the gum for the rest of their life just to quit smoking would it make it any less "better for" them?

[Duckfeet]

So if you COULD get methadone the same way you get the subs, you'd stay on that instead?

Have you ever considered moving somewhere with an OBOT program? NY, say, or Baltimore?

You know, I've thought that myself. wondered. And I would probably give it a lot better try, than I usually do on methadone. Of course the other problems are the more typical ones, two specifically, that I have never found a good way around. One is constipation. It always seems to "catch up" to me, and I miss a day, and then try to wait to dose until I have a movement, all that. I try eating right, do all the deal, but still, I would seem to spend hrs daily sitting there, straining...

the other is the tendency to gain weight. I'm at 200 lbs, fairly fit, but whenever I'm on methadone I have trouble not pigging out on ice cream and such, using food to "fix" me, if you know what I mean.

Regardless of how we feel about the terminology, I know we both are thoughtful people who try to find out the truth behind all the myths, and help the ones struggling with dope habits and self-destructive lifestyes. Sometimes it's unfortunate that my *legal* and *political* quarrels with the government comes off as an *anti* methadone stance, which it isn't. It's simply that I am a libertarian, and I am serious about my beliefs regarding the diamorphine clinical trials. and not to sound corny, but it's my philosophical quarrel, you know, with choice and "disease" and all that, that sometimes comes off as meanspirited, when I"m not that way. I root for anybody trying to find a way out of the hell of active drug addiction.

And I've learned from you, and your posts, so I hope you stay an advocate, even though at times I know you feel beleaguered and alone.

[prettypoppy]

I know you're not that way, Duck--that's why it upset me so much, I think, and made me sad. I really agree with most of your views and consider myself a libertarian too, albeit one that can't vote. (my republican, Rush Limbaugh loving ex husband tells me I've been "neutered", because I always made it a point when we were married to go cancel out his vote at each election, lol!)

I absolutely agree that we should be able to put whatever we want in our bodies, unless and until it affects someone else's health and well being. Heck, I get upset about seatbelt laws, even! (but I do have to admit that if I were in an accident and rendered paralyzed because I was not wearing a seatbelt and had to be cared for at taxpayer expense, that would be affecting other people. I just HATE seatbelts!)

[Duckfeet]

I know you're not that way, Duck--that's why it upset me so much, I think, and made me sad. I really agree with most of your views and consider myself a libertarian too, albeit one that can't vote. (my republican, Rush Limbaugh loving ex husband tells me I've been "neutered", because I always made it a point when we were married to go cancel out his vote at each election, lol!)

I absolutely agree that we should be able to put whatever we want in our bodies, unless and until it affects someone else's health and well being. Heck, I get upset about seatbelt laws, even! (but I do have to admit that if I were in an accident and rendered paralyzed because I was not wearing a seatbelt and had to be cared for at taxpayer expense, that would be affecting other people. I just HATE seatbelts!)


Yeah, I never much liked seatbelt or helmet laws either. Though I'm for the use of either one. People say that they have right to pass these laws since they pay hospital bills for wrecks. But by that reasoning, being overweight should be criminalized, since most docs will say that weight problems, and type II diabetes are highests costs in gov supported med benefits. Oh well. I'm always better at arguing and defining the problems, than I am at coming up with solutions.

I think that wise people with opiate problems, however they define them, do the best to find the treatment that allows them to function reasonably happy in an unjust world. To sit around and mope because we don't have diamorphine maintenance, or injectible methadone maint, as the UK does, doesn't do me any good. I can vote and agitate all I want, but to take care of myself, it had better be bup, methadone, or move far away. Subs to me are good for kicking, but craving and slight depression lingers. On methadone I never craved, and wasn't depressed, but as I said, mostly the constipation, and the hassle of the clinic. I could overcome that over time, as you and others have, and I still keep that option open. I haven't decided what I'm to do, really. I'm getting radiation for prostate cancer for a couple months, so I'm not going anywhere right now, anyway. In march I'll review my options. I have called and talked to people at NAOMI in Vancouver, but it sounds like moving to England would be, that there would be no sure thing, that I would have to move, and than wrassle with the system like anybody else. Mostly waiting to see if NAOMI gets extended. A lot of politics going on up there, about that, naturally.

I got it good here. Went and had a fish taco and beans with a young friend, watched a couple pals bodysurfing. Most of my troubles lie between my ears. Take care Zenith.

[prettypoppy]

Subs to me are good for kicking, but craving and slight depression lingers. On methadone I never craved, and wasn't depressed, but as I said, mostly the constipation, and the hassle of the clinic. I could overcome that over time, as you and others have, and I still keep that option open. .


I gotta tell ya, Duck, seems like if you weigh constipation and clinic hassles against depression and cravings, I'd go with the constipation and hassles any day. Of course that is easy for me to say--I have a good clinic, I go once every 3 weeks, and my constipation problem has all but resolved itself. But the depression and cravings were something that made me miserable every waking moment of every day. And dang it, I did not like taking something that I knew had opiate antagonsits in it (bupe)! What kind of self respecting endorphin deficient opioid addict wants to take something with NALOXONE in it, for Pete's sake!;) :rolleyes: But to each his own, I suppose.

Sorry to hear about your prostate cancer--I didn't know that. :( Thankfully it is one of the slowest growing , least fatal cancers around. One doc told me every man would get prostate cancer if they lived long enough. Is it well under control, I hope???

[Duckfeet]

I gotta tell ya, Duck, seems like if you weigh constipation and clinic hassles against depression and cravings, I'd go with the constipation and hassles any day. Of course that is easy for me to say--I have a good clinic, I go once every 3 weeks, and my constipation problem has all but resolved itself. But the depression and cravings were something that made me miserable every waking moment of every day. And dang it, I did not like taking something that I knew had opiate antagonsits in it (bupe)! What kind of self respecting endorphin deficient opioid addict wants to take something with NALOXONE in it, for Pete's sake!;) :rolleyes: But to each his own, I suppose.

Sorry to hear about your prostate cancer--I didn't know that. :( Thankfully it is one of the slowest growing , least fatal cancers around. One doc told me every man would get prostate cancer if they lived long enough. Is it well under control, I hope???

Actually, you got my number: I fought *hard* until I got a doc who would perscribe me subutex, which doesn't have naloxone, as opposed to suboxone, which of course, does. But all that does is make it not work if u IV it, you're
correct on the other antagonist effect against other opiates...but methadone does that too, which is just that it binds so good to the receptors that nothing else can get in. n But yer right, it just went against my grain to take something w/naloxone in it, seems so chickenshit to force it on people. And I've fixed the subutex, just like they feared...but it was nothing, like fixing methadone pills: yawn.

But, granted, if it were that simple I'd still be on methadone. I don't have cravings but I'm unhappy on it, whether its the methadone itself, or my own notions of freedom, I'm never too sure. I'm glad the option's open. And as I've said too many times on Watchdog...I just came off seven years C&S, and up until the last few months of it I was pretty happy. So no matter how many times I say and say and say I need to face the fact I can't go back to that, there is a side of me that just won't accept it, and tries to leave my options open. I think to be successful on methadone maintenance one needs to do what you posted, which is to make a comittment to finding the right dose, and I know that would be higher for me, and I just can't get that comittment, but of course that translates into the pinball dopefiend I've become the last eight months, bouncing between methadone, bup, and heroin, with no breaks in between...I know I could find a way to deal with the side effects of methadone, and if I accepted that is was the way it is, I would eventually be happy on it, as that is my nature, but of course, I'm not there.

Yeah, my Dad and previous generation all died badly, my Dad suicide when cancer got too bad, and the cancer is aggresive in all previous males of my family, so I've been kind of aggresive in treating it. But it's localized, and teaching hospital hooked up with V.A. here is good, so I'm cool. Co-founder of Intel went w/same treatment i'm going after, 2 months should be done, and I can move on...

[robojunkie]

PS--trading methadone for dope isn't like trading vodka for beer---it's more like trading in your cigs for nicorette gum??? If a person had to stay on the gum for the rest of their life just to quit smoking would it make it any less "better for" them?

Yeah, but heroin doesn't give you cancer!:)


I gotta tell ya, Duck, seems like if you weigh constipation and clinic hassles against depression and cravings, I'd go with the constipation and hassles any day.

I guess it depends on the degree and severity of constipation...I think I mentioned that somewhere before, one of the major reasons for coming off done. I didn't drop a chunk o' coal for about 4 weeks when I first went on. Not a good start (and a horrible finish)! But it is probably (almost definitely) the best option for the long term "chronics" among us. Was the only option left for me at the time, but I too am a social libertartian and resent the fact that the government decides what form of legitamized treatment (if any) we can get...and its still not respected by "authorities"...try getting your dose continued in jail. Any other legal prescription has to be provided for but somehow they get away with forcing CT on the unlucky ones. Some cops will bring you to the clinic while awaiting arraignment (in cuffs and feed you your juice like a baby) but this is all on the city. I, too, just wish I could go on a diamorphine clinic with control over my dose (I would accept serum level testing, etc. to make sure I'm taking it, whatever, bullshit compromise) but I really believe in full legalization for adults. Pay to play? Only if the rules of the game are fair!

[Duckfeet]

Yeah, but heroin doesn't give you cancer!:)



I guess it depends on the degree and severity of constipation...I think I mentioned that somewhere before, one of the major reasons for coming off done. I didn't drop a chunk o' coal for about 4 weeks when I first went on. Not a good start (and a horrible finish)! But it is probably (almost definitely) the best option for the long term "chronics" among us. Was the only option left for me at the time, but I too am a social libertartian and resent the fact that the government decides what form of legitamized treatment (if any) we can get...and its still not respected by "authorities"...try getting your dose continued in jail. Any other legal prescription has to be provided for but somehow they get away with forcing CT on the unlucky ones. Some cops will bring you to the clinic while awaiting arraignment (in cuffs and feed you your juice like a baby) but this is all on the city. I, too, just wish I could go on a diamorphine clinic with control over my dose (I would accept serum level testing, etc. to make sure I'm taking it, whatever, bullshit compromise) but I really believe in full legalization for adults. Pay to play? Only if the rules of the game are fair!

That's me, exactly. It's just me, but there's something fundamental I feel I'm selling out when I get on methadone. I can't defend it, or even explain it very good. But it's always there... Chasing heroin I don't get it. Again, I can't defend it, feel weird even talking about it, but *every* time I've gotten on methadone in the last thirty years, I feel so sold out, and it just doesn't go away...I can't "reason" it away, it just is. I don't try to spread that attitude, happy for people on the 'done, people I know would have escaped HIV or prison if they had got on it...but still, for me, I just can't shake it, feel such a sense of defeat when I walk in the clinic, and I'm just too fucking old to change. It's just me, no universal view, no opinion on other people doing what they need to do.

[robojunkie]

That's me, exactly. It's just me, but there's something fundamental I feel I'm selling out when I get on methadone. I can't defend it, or even explain it very good. But it's always there... Chasing heroin I don't get it. Again, I can't defend it, feel weird even talking about it, but *every* time I've gotten on methadone in the last thirty years, I feel so sold out, and it just doesn't go away...I can't "reason" it away, it just is. I don't try to spread that attitude, happy for people on the 'done, people I know would have escaped HIV or prison if they had got on it...but still, for me, I just can't shake it, feel such a sense of defeat when I walk in the clinic, and I'm just too fucking old to change. It's just me, no universal view, no opinion on other people doing what they need to do.

I hear that...I'm "only" 34 and was on the clinic for 8 years, but nothing was the same about it. I only went and took it seriously cause I learned I was having a daughter and I was already to much of a fucked up junkie with multiple failures at getting straight ("I've kicked a thousand times" like the old cigarette joke). But it was always pragmatic and I was never able to get how some, or a few, of the people could 1) buy the "it's medicine, etc." thing and 2) not still look at it as some sorta fix. I still did. However crappy compared to H I would still look forward to my pink drink. Especially once on take homes where I could go to school/work and have that to "look forward too" like most peeps go out to the bar after...

I used to also see it as defeatist to go on the clinic...for a long time my doctor kept pushing me to go on but my retort was always "but that's like giving up", even though I had no other real plan. That was why my first stay on the clinic was only 3 months. I mean in today's society and legal system it is incredibly helpful, especially for "ex" street junkies like myself who could never maintain a habit "legitimately". But I know what you mean with the "selling out" thing. I always felt (and still do even though I'm not bangin' H right now) that it was my Right to choose heroin and the clinic was kinda like the government eminent domaining me out of my family home and into some shitty levvittown cookie cutter shithole. One thing was my real choice, the other the least of the evils...

I know one thing for certain though, if I was/had been/could now acquire legal, cheap, clean and consistent heroin from a pharmacy I'd be a lot further along in life/career/etc. than I am now, currently off opiates, wanting to be on, not being able to afford, not wanting to be straight, having to be straight (wrt opiates, at least)...talk about a mindfuck...

[Duckfeet]

I hear that...I'm "only" 34 and was on the clinic for 8 years, but nothing was the same about it. I only went and took it seriously cause I learned I was having a daughter and I was already to much of a fucked up junkie with multiple failures at getting straight ("I've kicked a thousand times" like the old cigarette joke). But it was always pragmatic and I was never able to get how some, or a few, of the people could 1) buy the "it's medicine, etc." thing and 2) not still look at it as some sorta fix. I still did. However crappy compared to H I would still look forward to my pink drink. Especially once on take homes where I could go to school/work and have that to "look forward too" like most peeps go out to the bar after...

I used to also see it as defeatist to go on the clinic...for a long time my doctor kept pushing me to go on but my retort was always "but that's like giving up", even though I had no other real plan. That was why my first stay on the clinic was only 3 months. I mean in today's society and legal system it is incredibly helpful, especially for "ex" street junkies like myself who could never maintain a habit "legitimately". But I know what you mean with the "selling out" thing. I always felt (and still do even though I'm not bangin' H right now) that it was my Right to choose heroin and the clinic was kinda like the government eminent domaining me out of my family home and into some shitty levvittown cookie cutter shithole. One thing was my real choice, the other the least of the evils...

I know one thing for certain though, if I was/had been/could now acquire legal, cheap, clean and consistent heroin from a pharmacy I'd be a lot further along in life/career/etc. than I am now, currently off opiates, wanting to be on, not being able to afford, not wanting to be straight, having to be straight (wrt opiates, at least)...talk about a mindfuck...

Yeah, I mean, I may have to bite the bullet eventually, make the best of it, and like u said, take the pragmatic--least harmful--attitude, and just get on methadone and quit bouncing around. I know I'm probably kidding myself, but because of the nature of my situation, I hope maybe I could move to Vancouver, if that diamorphine maint program is continued, or somehow or another move to UK and push to get on it over there. No guarantee either way, and I am as prone to self-deception as the next junky, but still, hope springs eternal, all that. but I'ved pushed my luck in my day, taken chances and succeeded, so it might happen. Right now subs just keep the dog at bay most days, and I have this medical crap I'm going thru next couple of months, and I'm pretty careful, so hopefully it will pan out o.k.

I regret that sometimes my personal dislike of methadone maintenance sometimes is perceived as attack on the program itself, or worse, on people on maintenance, but such is not the case. Just never worked for me, and I have trouble with the notion, that I need to keep "upping the dose," until it does work, because then I have a doozy of a habit, to boot.

I've had a good life, successful by some standards, and nobody around me seems to understand that most happiness I've know has been while on opiates. To other people it's what's *wrong* with me, while to me, it's what's right.

[robojunkie]

I've had a good life, successful by some standards, and nobody around me seems to understand that most happiness I've know has been while on opiates. To other people it's what's *wrong* with me, while to me, it's what's right.

Abso-fucking-lutely! That says it all. Period.

Maybe I should change my "location" thing to "both feet in this world, heart's in another..."

[prettypoppy]

Not trying to keep this going by any means--just ran across this article (by an MD) and thought it said well what I have been trying to say here.


Methadone Is A Medication, Not A Heroin Substitute As a medical scientist I find it amazing that an established medical treatment can be "controversial" after 34 years. Some people, on ideological grounds, oppose all medication for the addictions. Some politicians imagine (wrongly) that they can save money by shutting down methadone clinics.

Massive scientific evidence shows that methadone, in sufficient dosage, in a well-run treatment program, allows heroin addicts to stop using heroin, to become rehabilitated, and to enter the socioeconomic mainstream.

Here I discuss the main ideologic objection to methadone-a misconception that flies in the face of what we know about the neurobiology of heroin addiction. Numerous brain chemicals send signals from one neuron to another, keeping the complex circuits in stable balance. Among these neurotransmitters are our natural endorphins, which act on special receptors in the "reward system" to produce normal feelings of satisfaction from such normal activities as eating, drinking, and sexual activity.

An addict using heroin typically injects several times a day. Each time, the endorphin receptors are flooded by this drug (actually by morphine, to which heroin is converted), and a dramatic change in mood occurs-the heroin "high." This lasts but a short time, to be replaced by a state of withdrawal sickness-time for another injection! These repeated spikes of heroin, swamping the endorphin receptors, drastically upset the fine-tuned regulations that keep the brain in a normal state of equilibrium.

Although it is true that methadone, like heroin, occupies the endorphin receptors, the nature of the interaction is completely different. There is no methadone "high" because methadone occupies those receptors in a long-lasting stable way in contrast to the spiking pattern of intravenous heroin use. Thus, it is wrong to call methadone a heroin substitute, to say we are "just substituting another addictive opiate for heroin. "Methadone is a medication, which occupies the endorphin receptors and stabilizes the disrupted endorphin systems. Methadone is best described as an endorphin substitute, not a heroin substitute.Can an addict under treatment with methadone ever stop taking the medication? Some can, and remain abstinent, but others relapse to heroin use. Many find it useful to continue methadone indefinitely. All physical and mental functions are normal in a methadone-maintained person. No test other than an actual methadone assay can pick out such a person.Yes, a methadone patient who abruptly stops taking methadone will suffer unpleasant withdrawal symptoms. But these are much less serious than if a diabetic stops insulin, a patient with rheumatoid arthritis stops steroids,or a patient with heart disease stops digoxin. Curiously, the pejorative term "addictive drug" is never applied to those and other instances of long-term drug therapy. In short, methadone is a safe and effective medication for a chronic relapsing disease that if untreated wreaks havoc on the addict and on society. A special benefit is that it is taken by mouth, so intravenous drug use can cease. That means reduced risk of AIDS, hepatitis, and other serious infections spread by contaminated needles.

All this is supported by experimental and epidemiologic evidence published in the medical journals and in official government and quasi-government sources. The ultimate absurdity is the notion that stopping methadone treatment will be cost-effective. On the contrary, as addicts relapse, the costs of crime, law enforcement, and health care will inevitably escalate. Why, then, do politicians and ideologues persist in ignoring or distorting the facts?
_________________

[djnarkotik]

the key to addiction is simple: it is simply not being able to stop something. Frequency does not matter thats what addiction is.

[-Skrilla-]

Yer right, I quote a lot. It's a vanity, for sure. Can't *help* it! ;-) You get older, yah get little in yer life that makes you look good: reading a lot, and being able to quote burntout writers is one of the reasons I'll never be humble. And writers like Bukowski and Celine and Dostoevski and other writers of the dark side kept me going, so I drop their names regularly in case there are younger versions of me floating around, want to know who I read, and I know you'all love me in spite of obvious braggadocio tendencies :) But I do misquote outrageoously--previous is bastardization of something Buk said in "Notes of a Dirty Old Man," and it's embarassing how much I twist up the old gnome's writings ;-)



And since I'm obviously addicted to quoting, here's Hemingway on the meaning of life:
"They throw you in the game, they don't tell you the rules, and then then they kill you. ;-)

haha well done, it is good for people like you to throw the names around so we don't forget...

[prettypoppy]

the key to addiction is simple: it is simply not being able to stop something. Frequency does not matter thats what addiction is.


"Yes, a methadone patient who abruptly stops taking methadone will suffer unpleasant withdrawal symptoms. But these are much less serious than if a diabetic stops insulin, a patient with rheumatoid arthritis stops steroids,or a patient with heart disease stops digoxin. Curiously, the pejorative term "addictive drug" is never applied to those and other instances of long-term drug therapy. "


So, then, these folks are addicts by your definition?

[robojunkie]

Thus, it is wrong to call methadone a heroin substitute, to say we are "just substituting another addictive opiate for heroin. "Methadone is a medication, which occupies the endorphin receptors and stabilizes the disrupted endorphin systems. Methadone is best described as an endorphin substitute, not a heroin substitute.

Yeah, but isn't heroin best described as an "endorphin substitute"? Heroin=pure MOR agonist, Methadone=pure MOR agonist. Sorry couldn't resist.

Often as I am sure you know scientific research (and sadly often the results) are often politically driven. Ever wonder what the situation would be like if the primary active principle in opium was methadone and diacetylmorphine was an unknown synthetic with no baggage researched as a treatment for the centuries long "scourge" of opium/methadone addiction?

Virtually all negative effects (disease, overdose, economic destruction, criminality, etc) associated with H has nothing whatsoever to do with the drug but with this ridiculous society's legal response to it. Well, overdoses would still happen, but far less often. Primary reason methadone stablilizes is legality. But its better than nothing/AA/NA/etc.

[nick]

I'm with you Robo,but I understand prettypoppies position and respect what she does.Methadone is the only mass prescribed opiate for addiction.
However methadone is just another opiate and a pretty unpleasant one at that and any one who thinks that because they take a socially acceptable opiate they aren't addicted or dependent is in deep,deep denial.
We can't have meaningful change in treatment options until we're honest about this.

[prettypoppy]

But Nick, I DO think I am dependent. If I went off methadone I would be sick as a DOG. What I am saying is that, for me, being on MMT and being in active addiction are two very different things. Some of it IS due to the legality issues, sure. But some is not. Methadone does not affect my brain in the same way heroin did, at all. On H, all I could do was nod and think about my next dose. I neglected my personal hygeine, spent all my money on H (way more than was needed to 'maintain" me), couldn't remember one damn thing anyone said to me, and had no kind of normal life. My whole life was about the drug. That is the psycho-social component that helps to differentiate addiction from simple dependence, in my book. I don't think I am "better" than anyone else because I am on MMT. If I were offered a heroin maintenance program I'd snap it right up, even knowing what I do about how it affects me, because I am addicted to it mentally, I like it, and I want it. Methadone does not affect me like that. I don't want to take more, I would never buy extra, I seldom think twice about it, sometimes I even forget to take it--and my life is in order. Anyone who looked at me on heroin could tell I was on drugs and that something was verrrry wrong. On methadone, no one has any idea I am on anything. I really do feel there is a difference. If you want to define addiction only as whether or not you would suffer withdrawals if the drug was removed then sure I'm addicted. What I am saying is that there is more to it than that, at least in the way I define it.

[nick]

to be honest Prettypoppy I'm just being argumetative because I'm enjoyinng the debate and you're right methadone does save many people from a terrible fate,but I'll tell you,don't equate H with diamorphine .Diamorphine works and gives a stable life.

[prettypoppy]

Nick, are you saying that the pharmaceutical version of heroin is that different from the street version? Or what? I'm kinda confused.

[nick]

Yes diamorphine is different from street H.The differences are subtle,but to an addict obvious.Diamorphine is much cleaner and it's much easier to dose effectively because you know exactely how much you have.
The truth is Prettypoppy,that diamorphine is not as good as street H.You can use it without "pigging" out on it.
There's also evidence that people stabilise on it.In the worst cases at around 400-500mgs a day.

I apologise if it seemed like I disapprove of methadone-I don't.I just think treatment would be so much better,in terms of the numbers going through and complience,if there was a choice of opaites prescribed.

[prettypoppy]

I apologise if it seemed like I disapprove of methadone-I don't.I just think treatment would be so much better,in terms of the numbers going through and complience,if there was a choice of opaites prescribed.



I agree completely.

[AWOL]

"Yes, a methadone patient who abruptly stops taking methadone will suffer unpleasant withdrawal symptoms. But these are much less serious than if a diabetic stops insulin, a patient with rheumatoid arthritis stops steroids,or a patient with heart disease stops digoxin. Curiously, the pejorative term "addictive drug" is never applied to those and other instances of long-term drug therapy. "


So, then, these folks are addicts by your definition?

The difference is exactly what you wrote. Methadone addicts can stop and not die. I know a child who has to get dialysis, and the difference is that she has to use dialysis to live because she was born with kidneys that don't work. Opiate users could stop using methadone, and not die. It is their choice, key word. You said it yourself.

I have no problem with methadone, or diamorphine programs, or marijuana being legalized for that matter and handed out to patients who feel that with marijuana their life is better and they can function. But the difference between patients who take meds because they are dying, and opiate addicts is exactly what you wrote. One is dying, one is not. Methadone users in the end can choose if they take methadone or do not. You can't really compare them to someone who is born with a deformed heart. The difference is any of those people taking meds for their heart condition, or diabetes, given the option of enduring a state similar to withdrawals and then being able to stop taking their prescriptions, every diabetic would be lined up the next day to undergo such a procedure. I'm thinking of trying methadone myself ... but it's not because I have no choice and I'd die otherwise.

[AWOL]

On the other hand however .. Methadone is being given to opiate addicts as a form of anti-depressant almost. I am not arguing that methadone users are there to get high, they're obviously not. They are there because it makes life bearable and possible. I am all for methadone programs, they need to expand them IMO and help people out with their addictions and not treat them as a criminal matter and lock em all up in prison. I also feel there should be diamorph programs as an option. I don't think anyone here is arguing that these programs don't help addicts resume a normal life where they are safe and removed from the criminal aspect of addiction. But the original question was; is a person on methadone an opiate addict? Yes, they are. Opiate receptors are opiate receptors regardless of what opiate you are choosing to put there.

In a setting like a methadone clinic though, I would much prefer methadone users were referred to as / referred to themselves as dependant and not addict. They are dependant on methadone, for their opiate addiction. Sounds wonderful and wonderfully PC to me. I'm all for it. I am simply stating what I feel is the correct answer to the original question. If a person is on methadone, are they addicted? Yes.

Everybody else is entitled to their own feelings of new interpretations on the matter and broader definitions. But that is my answer, and I also feel that in a clinical setting like at the methadone clinic I definitely do not feel workers should ever use the word addict. It's just like why you don't call people with learning disabilities retarded .. because you just don't. Is the word correct ?? yes it is, they are retarded. Their brain function is retarded compared to that of a “normal” persons brain … But is it right to apply that word to them and call them retarded, no it's not! You don’t do it! There are millions of examples. But is a person on Methadone addicted to opiates ? Yes they are. Should you call them an addict? No, you really shouldn't.

Those are my feelings, they are not the same as anyone else’s, we all have our own feelings on the matter and we all live happily ever after.

[robojunkie]

I'm with you Robo,but I understand prettypoppies position and respect what she does.Methadone is the only mass prescribed opiate for addiction.
However methadone is just another opiate and a pretty unpleasant one at that and any one who thinks that because they take a socially acceptable opiate they aren't addicted or dependent is in deep,deep denial.
We can't have meaningful change in treatment options until we're honest about this.

I hear that. I have much respect for anyone trying to work in any type of harm reduction area, be it activism, employment, needle exchange, etc. These are all people working to try and help save lives that many in society view as expendable (at least that's the impression I get of society at large's view). In the end I don't think it really matters as far as whether someone on MMT is an "addict", "patient", "client", "opiate dependent in remission on maintenance" or whatever. I refer to myself as a "junky", whether using, on done, or off opiates. At least when talking to people in the know. What really matters is that done definitely improves/saves lives for many people. It helped me out a lot for 8 years, its only that, as you said Nick, we should have more "legitimate" options available. And Pretty Poppy, despite my mixed feelings about done vs other opiates I (and I am sure many others) really appreciate and respect you and others who advocate, etc for harm reduction policies. Props.

[KRAZY8CHEMIST]

I agree with damage control. It's no doubt that this country has made addiction a criminal activity rather than the health problem it is. I mean really, is it just me or are many of the posts here more colorful than the general publics idea of a junkie. I live in NH and the nearest methadone clinic is 100+ miles away so what tf am I supposed to do to moderate my problem???

later bros

Krazy

[Chipper]

KRAZY8CHEMIST, When I spent some time in a psych ward, there was this crazy dude with KRAZY8 in bold capitals written on his arm. Totally off topic but what a coincidence, eh?

[nick]

This is still the dumbest question on the web.

[HeidiW]

Brother Nick, I'm with you 148% on this one.:D

[prettypoppy]

As a belated answer to dv1313,s posts, I would say that IF the above mentioned patients (insulin, heart, etc) thought that they could get off their meds and live, BUT still continue to suffer any and all the problems associated with their diseases (pain, weakness, blood sugar fluctuations, inability to get around, swollen limbs, fluid retention, etc etc) then I doubt they would be lining up around the block to get off those meds. Getting OFF dependence-producing medication does not mean the reason you got ON them in the first place is GONE. I take methadone not to "feed my addiction"--I have gotten off opiates many times in tha past and my life was utterly miserable--I take it to treat my endorphin deficiency so that my life can be worth living, not just some ball of continuous, white knuckled misery. Most people on chronic meds take them not JUST because they may die without them, but because they would like to have some kind of quality of life--as would I.

[LegalizeOpiates]

yes methadone is more addicting that heroin, just because it's legal doesn't mean it's safer or less addicting

[suboxoneeater]

I have a limitless supply of methamphetamine, used everyday multi times / hour for 7 months and I don't even think of twirling the pipe or parachuting any at all.

I was addicted but overused and am now not addicted in the slightest.

[nick]

I have a limitless supply of methamphetamine, used everyday multi times / hour for 7 months and I don't even think of twirling the pipe or parachuting any at all.

I was addicted but overused and am now not addicted in the slightest.

And? we're talking about methadone-a totally different beast.

Glad you left that shit behind man.

[Duckfeet]

All right, .'fess up: who bumped this tired old thread anyway??
I log in this morning, see this thread, back from the dead, and go thru *last* page and there was Heidi's avatar staring right at me, adding to my heartache...oh well...

[hovadagod]

haha. This thread BLOWS!!

[Duckfeet]

I know, I started reading it and got all excited *again* and can take every position on here, and make total sense and can contradict myself all in the same thread...like talking to myself...only *better!*:)

[hovadagod]

semantics...

[DCBA]

For me addiction is the mind part, the wanting to get high part, while dependent is the physical part.

and you can be addicted without being dependent and you can be dependent without being addicted, and you can be both.

Theres a difference between both concepts.

[Duckfeet]

The reason this topic never dies is because some people feel more comfortable with terminology that reinforces their belief that they have a disease.

Me, it's just basic logic:

A = Opiates get me addicted...

B = Methadone is an opiate...

C = I am addicted to methadone...

All the rest, IMHO, is bubblegum...

Get a cold jail cell. Put one junky who is strungout on heroin on the left bunk.

Put a person who belives that they take methadone only for EDS, which they see as a legitimate illness on the right bunk.

Wait 4 days: see if you can tell the difference. Yeah, they might talk different going in, but they'll both be puking and shitting and thinking life really does suck after a few days...and endorphins and the "disease concept" will be of little account. The miserable reality of their condition will trump theory...

[JayTrizzle]

duckfeet, as usual, you are the wise sage of opiophiles, lol. i completely agree, one hundred percent. honestly, good heroin always made me nod off into complete sleep so i never got REALLY bad into it (at WORST i only got up to about 3/4 gram a day, meaning 3 1/4 gram shots, breakfast lunch and bed time), and when i realized I could shoot meth, i was hitting it up like 8 times a day, because i was young and stupid, and i honestly got WAY worse withdrawals from methadone. i think part of it has to do with the fact that you know that if you take your methadone you won't crave other shit AS MUCH (you still do, don't let anyone lie to you), and you know that if you abuse it and run out of your takehomes early you're going to wrestle with the thought of relapsing to prevent the oncoming shit storm, which, if you DON'T relapse, makes the withdrawal weven worse knowing that you COULD stop it with a phone call.

[Indy]

The reason this topic never dies is because some people feel more comfortable with terminology that reinforces their belief that they have a disease.

Me, it's just basic logic:

A = Opiates get me addicted...

B = Methadone is an opiate...

C = I am addicted to methadone...

All the rest, IMHO, is bubblegum...

Get a cold jail cell. Put one junky who is strungout on heroin on the left bunk.

Put a person who belives that they take methadone only for EDS, which they see as a legitimate illness on the right bunk.

Wait 4 days: see if you can tell the difference. Yeah, they might talk different going in, but they'll both be puking and shitting and thinking life really does suck after a few days...and endorphins and the "disease concept" will be of little account. The miserable reality of their condition will trump theory...

Yeah, but then keep them clean and wait a year, and (assuming the "regular junky" doesn't have EDS), and if EDS is real, which i tend to believe it is (though i don't believe i have it per se), there WILL be a difference. One will have recovered, be mostly healthy, and a bit bored, while the other will be depressed and most likely in pain, with more minor illnesses.

[Duckfeet]

I hear you, Indy...it's a tough call, for me, and has more to do w/politics and the whole shitstorm of drug illegality than anything else...I guess my personal belief is that *until* we can have access to the drugs we want, and the only people getting help for EDS are people who are seeking help of their own voltion, we just won't know what is choice, what is 'illness', and what is just plain old 'fear of jail......too much is at stake, I guess...and the criminalization, and later medicalization, of something that was once personal choice, is tough to see--for me--from any kind of objective viewpoint...most people I like and respect believe as you do...



Yeah, but then keep them clean and wait a year, and (assuming the "regular junky" doesn't have EDS), and if EDS is real, which i tend to believe it is (though i don't believe i have it per se), there WILL be a difference. One will have recovered, be mostly healthy, and a bit bored, while the other will be depressed and most likely in pain, with more minor illnesses.

[clinton]

methadone is an opioid

youre taking it daily ,w/o it you get sick, yes youre addicted

[stick+lick]

This topic always cracks me up....because the people that believe it's semantics always say that the people that say there is a difference between addiction and dependence are just looking for a way to justify their use of drugs. And I say that the people that don't believe there is a difference are really the people that have never experienced the difference--because they are as miserable or close to as miserable on methadone as they were on drugs.

This is MY reality. I don't need to make excuses for my use of drugs. My goal for recovery was NEVER to stop using drugs--it was to stop using drugs compulsively, without control and to stop obsessing about them. If I could use cocaine and dope without my entire soul being taken over by my need to use it, I would....and I would consider it RECOVERY. Because addiction has nothing to do with drugs for ME. I used drugs to get it, but once I had it the drugs were irrelevant. So my recovery is about feeling ok and being able to do the things I really want to do with my life. If I could do that and use drugs occasionally I would consider myself just as much in recovery as I do now.

The difference for ME is this--when Dr.Dole was studying a completely different thing he stumbled upon the POSITIVE effects of methadone on heroin addicts. He had maintained heroin addicts on morphine for a time and had to humanely detox them as part of the study. During the study, while on the morphine, the patients didn't do much but watch tv and ask how much longer they had to wait for their next shot. When he switched them over to methadone one patient asked if they could help him get his GED and a job....and another started to paint again after years of no interest in art, despite that being his profession before addiction. This was my reality with methadone...this is why it is a completely different beast than addiction.

The part that cracks me up about this arguement is the people who always say it's semantics are usually the people that talk about drug addiction and drug use not being a moral issue If we are truly talking semantics here and not about the "morality" of altering ones mood--then how can you possibly consider a drug that has antidepressant effects on me, the same as using dope or OC which has a almost psychotic effect on me?

If we truly were talking about semantics then we would be asking why we don't use addiction in place of dependence for EVERY drug--like antidepressants etc....but the only drug we are fighting over is methadone because it's an opioid....so if there is no place in the back of your head that places a "moral" label on some drugs and not others--then this wouldn't even be an issue--because no one here can possibly say there isn't a difference between being in a state of addiction and being on antidepressants or prendisone or other steroids and being "dependent" on them. So is it just :semantics: when we are talking about methadone--or is it just semantics period? And if it is only with methadone then what are the reasons why you believe there is a place for two different definitions for addiction and dependence when we are talking about any other drug in the world, but when we are talking about using methadone or suboxone its the terms are interchangeable?

[nick]

This topic always cracks me up....because the people that believe it's semantics always say that the people that say there is a difference between addiction and dependence are just looking for a way to justify their use of drugs. And I say that the people that don't believe there is a difference are really the people that have never experienced the difference--because they are as miserable or close to as miserable on methadone as they were on drugs.

This is MY reality. I don't need to make excuses for my use of drugs. My goal for recovery was NEVER to stop using drugs--it was to stop using drugs compulsively, without control and to stop obsessing about them. If I could use cocaine and dope without my entire soul being taken over by my need to use it, I would....and I would consider it RECOVERY. Because addiction has nothing to do with drugs for ME. I used drugs to get it, but once I had it the drugs were irrelevant. So my recovery is about feeling ok and being able to do the things I really want to do with my life. If I could do that and use drugs occasionally I would consider myself just as much in recovery as I do now.

The difference for ME is this--when Dr.Dole was studying a completely different thing he stumbled upon the POSITIVE effects of methadone on heroin addicts. He had maintained heroin addicts on morphine for a time and had to humanely detox them as part of the study. During the study, while on the morphine, the patients didn't do much but watch tv and ask how much longer they had to wait for their next shot. When he switched them over to methadone one patient asked if they could help him get his GED and a job....and another started to paint again after years of no interest in art, despite that being his profession before addiction. This was my reality with methadone...this is why it is a completely different beast than addiction.

The part that cracks me up about this arguement is the people who always say it's semantics are usually the people that talk about drug addiction and drug use not being a moral issue If we are truly talking semantics here and not about the "morality" of altering ones mood--then how can you possibly consider a drug that has antidepressant effects on me, the same as using dope or OC which has a almost psychotic effect on me?

If we truly were talking about semantics then we would be asking why we don't use addiction in place of dependence for EVERY drug--like antidepressants etc....but the only drug we are fighting over is methadone because it's an opioid....so if there is no place in the back of your head that places a "moral" label on some drugs and not others--then this wouldn't even be an issue--because no one here can possibly say there isn't a difference between being in a state of addiction and being on antidepressants or prendisone or other steroids and being "dependent" on them. So is it just :semantics: when we are talking about methadone--or is it just semantics period? And if it is only with methadone then what are the reasons why you believe there is a place for two different definitions for addiction and dependence when we are talking about any other drug in the world, but when we are talking about using methadone or suboxone its the terms are interchangeable?

Odd,I think it's semantics and self indulgent semantics at that.The folks that argue there is a difference tend to be western MMT users that want to believe that somehow MMT isn't an addiction and they're cured and living a better life.

I asked a Nepali friend about this the other day and he stopped me and said "I don't care Nick.We have bigger problems here."

Arguing about this dumbness is like fiddling while Rome burns.

[hovadagod]

Odd,I think it's semantics and self indulgent semantics at that.The folks that argue there is a difference tend to be western MMT users that want to believe that somehow MMT isn't an addiction and they're cured and living a better life.

I asked a Nepali friend about this the other day and he stopped me and said "I don't care Nick.We have bigger problems here."

Arguing about this dumbness is like fiddling while Rome burns.

The funny thing is, when I hear that people in certain countries abuse Bupe...like people shoot it and get addicted to it in countries without heroin...this actually makes me feel BETTER about suboxone.

[Duckfeet]

I'm totally cool w/other people thinking it's different, and absolutely *not* semantics...me, until decent opiates are legalized, it's coerced behavior, and no way to know....I've seen all kinds of views on this: all persuasive, all held passionately, often by people I respect and like personally...

But I see it differently, and since my life, in general, has always been forfeit somewhat to opiate addiction, my own personal experiences have been hard learned...methadone to me is just a longer lasting opiate, with the the pluses and minuses that provides...opiates need to be legalized, not medicalized, *then* people can make their own decisions on whether or not they are sick...or just want some dope...what many people see as EDS, I tend to see more as the tragic human condition, which is why people drink, do opiates, get religion, etc...and opiates are physically addictive, so I get strung out...and since when I was young, I had a kind of fucked up family, I learned to cope by getting wasted, and coping skills and happiness that might have developed *without* the use of these substances, never happened...or happened too late....

Not only do we now accept the government's definition of what "sick" is, but we also buy into them knowing what the best cure is...

[nick]

I'm totally cool w/other people thinking it's different, and absolutely *not* semantics...me, until decent opiates are legalized, it's coerced behavior, and no way to know....I've seen all kinds of views on this: all persuasive, all held passionately, often by people I respect and like personally...

But I see it differently, and since my life, in general, has always been forfeit somewhat to opiate addiction, my own personal experiences have been hard learned...methadone to me is just a longer lasting opiate, with the the pluses and minuses that provides...opiates need to be legalized, not medicalized, *then* people can make their own decisions on whether or not they are sick...or just want some dope...what many people see as EDS, I tend to see more as the tragic human condition, which is why people drink, do opiates, get religion, etc...and opiates are physically addictive, so I get strung out...and since when I was young, I had a kind of fucked up family, I learned to cope by getting wasted, and coping skills and happiness that might have developed *without* the use of these substances, never happened...or happened too late....

Not only do we now accept the government's definition of what "sick" is, but we also buy into them knowing what the best cure is...

You know,bro,I used to think it was an important debate which would result in an honest language for addiction and treatment.That was 5 years ago and here we are beating this to death.

Now days,I feel it's self indulgent and rooted in denial and miscommunication.Bottom line is this is a debate amongst fairly privileged western drug users.The Thais,Russians,Indians,Chinese,Nepalis,ukrainians and the rest of the addict community have much bigger problems and to be honest,so do we in the west.

So,I'm never discussing this dumbness again.Instead I'm gonna try and help as many dopers that are so downtrodden and abused that they don't care if they dependant,addicted or god dam purple.

It would be cool if everyone came to the same conclusion because there's a lot of people that need help out there and deciding weather they're addicts or dependant doesn't really cut it as help.

[Duckfeet]

I agree, Nick, actually, and as you said, it's been beat to death...doesn't change anything at all...and I think thread keeps re-surfacing because sometimes people think "we are all on the same page," or that some of us just "don't understand the stakes"...but unfortunately, compared to the problems you've mentioned, not much on this site is of import...even sick or overdosing junkies don't really rate up there alongside Darfur, or just about anywhere west of me...and maybe east of you...

But part of the reason I do feel compassion for all these fairly safe, reasonably well fed western addicts/EDS sufferers is because we are all so far down on the scale of any gov't much giving a shit...only when we turn seriously criminal, do we get much attention...

I feel sad for most of these kids, because I know that odds are, their lives will often resemble mine, and when you are really young, and there seems so much potential and possibility, and hope for better things, it's really troubling to for me to observe, that the only consistent thing, the thing that never leaves, is often our love/need for opiates...wasn't how I thought my hand would play out...and you are one of the few people I know, who actually has tried seriously to make a difference...but hey, u did get to visit *Texas,* so it all works out:)


You know,bro,I used to think it was an important debate which would result in an honest language for addiction and treatment.That was 5 years ago and here we are beating this to death.
Now days,I feel it's self indulgent and rooted in denial and miscommunication.Bottom line is this is a debate amongst fairly privileged western drug users.The Thais,Russians,Indians,Chinese,Nepalis,ukrainians and the rest of the addict community have much bigger problems and to be honest,so do we in the west.
So,I'm never discussing this dumbness again.Instead I'm gonna try and help as many dopers that are so downtrodden and abused that they don't care if they dependant,addicted or god dam purple.
It would be cool if everyone came to the same conclusion because there's a lot of people that need help out there and deciding weather they're addicts or dependant doesn't really cut it as help.

[alowishus]

And there is NOT ONE guilty person in any jail either, none of them did it.

[duck]

The funny thing is, when I hear that people in certain countries abuse Bupe...like people shoot it and get addicted to it in countries without heroin...this actually makes me feel BETTER about suboxone.

and rightfully so my good man, so frequently we worry about our problems that would be called luxuries in many places.

[egizzel417]

theres no such thing as the past and the future only the present... or until the government finds those other dimensions mabye we will learn to time travel.... or mabye THE MIST will come upon us lmfao