my experiance w/urd

[Chicago]

1rst it takes a few says to negoiate a price & go over all forms, b/c they need to no all the drugs you have ever used in your life. How much op's you take & what kind b/c they need 2 no how to plan out the procedure.

Day 1. B4 you go into the hospital, they want you off all drugs, so they rx you 1 days worth of meds.
30 10/325 norco's
5 pills 2mg clondine
3 tabs of levsin for the stomach
2 caps of 30mg temezpam B4 bed.

Day 2. You have to be at the hospital B4 7a.m. to ck in, then they bring you up to the bed. By 10a.m. the Dr. comes in w/a counsler to tell you how its gonna go down, how you gonna feel afterwords,how long it's gonna take.
During day 2. the Dr. makes a chart for you after taking notes on your addiction. By noon you are done w/all Dr's b/c they are doing procedures 2 a day.

So now you deal w/the nurse's. So they try to find a vein, put you on a morphine drip,no button just drips till day 3, as well as getting i.v morphine every 5hrs. They also give you a clonodine patch b/c takes 2days to kick in, then as in meds they give you valium 10-20mg 4-5 threw out the day, 6mg ativan 3x day. Now the shitty part, the nurse stands buy you & watches you drink a cup of laxative 2x on day 2, so you can get most of your bowls out b4 the procedure. Then b4 bed they give you some strong sleeping meds?4got

Day 3. At about noon they bring you down to the i.c.u. where they preform the ultra rapid detox.Stopping all opiates at 8a.m. To the point. They make you put just a gown on now. When the Dr. came in at 4p.m. to start, the anasthealogist(sp):oshoots you up w/a turkey baster of white shit, burns like a fucker, out in less then when I started to yell that fucken burns was the last I remember:D.
While you are out the nurse puts a diaper on you b/c when you w/d, well we all no what our stomachs & bowls do. Then a tube down your throat for when you vomit.
Now remember this a 7hr procedure, which they are putting a month of bad nasty w/d into 7hrs so it takes a toll on your body.
I wake up at about 2a.m. so it's early day 4. WOW:o I felt shitty & shit did come out my ass as well I hit the buzzer so they come clean my bed & wipe my ass, walk me to the washroom, but I already went in the bed, oh well, dude said to me shit happens lol, do not worry at all, even though I was embarresed.

Day 4. Dr. number 2 comes in & says to me or shows me on a chart that I just went from 1 month of heroin meth detox to about 2 days of the last of the month.

After this they started to give Naltrexone pills 50mg, I took it for 1 day after that ONLY b/c I was not ready, this was my 1rst detox, anyway they wanted me to stay in the i.c.u 1 more day but I just couldn't knowing I could keep shitting on the bed & puking.
So as weak as I was I pretended to be ok, so w/me convinceing them I can go back to the hotel & promise to come back 2morrow 2 ck back in w/Dr.

Day 5. I felt just like I was in w/d w/out any anxiety & sweats, which is great but my back/legs was in can't even describe the pain. When I went to the bathroom it smelled so bad I was puking while shitting:(, weak as can be made it to the hospital on the next day, told Dr. How I felt he said it will be about a weak B4 I will sleep or even start to feel better, but the opiates are 97% out of my system. To take home gave me some meds, catapress (clonodine) patch, 12 caps 30mg temezapm, levsin for stomach.

Day 6 Walked into my crib puked on the floor all green, then had my lady have 5 bags waiting for me, starting w/only 1 bag b/c they said I was opiate free. I did all 5 in a hr got CRAZY ENERGY & WENT TO TACO BELL.
This is what got me off 105mg of meth & 15bags a day. I kept w/the heroin but never w/back to meth THAT SHIT IS A KILLER.
THANX.

[I'm-Nod-Addicted]

Day 6 Walked into my crib puked on the floor all green, then had my lady have 5 bags waiting for me, starting w/only 1 bag b/c they said I was opiate free. I did all 5 in a hr got CRAZY ENERGY & WENT TO TACO BELL.


This is what got me off 105mg of meth & 15bags a day. I kept w/the heroin but never w/back to meth THAT SHIT IS A KILLER.



Well that answers the question i was going to ask- ha ha ha!


Good call on the Meth...I've never tried that junk...thank god.

[mark_renton]

Thanks for posting this man! I always wondered how this worked, and though I have never wanted to quite if I ever did I sure the hell wouldn't go with this method.

[I'm-Nod-Addicted]

What did it cost? 'bout 10 G's?

[Waismann]

Rapid detox is medicine and is as good as the dosctors that practice. This is not the way it should be done, and is absurd to keep a patient aunder anesthesia for so long..
In most cases this is how its done...
The Waismann Method of detoxification Under Anesthesia utilizes the most advanced medical technique available for opiate dependency. We have the highest success rate in the country.Patients are treated with the highest level of professionalism, dignity and respect. We are located in Orange County, So California; where we receive patients from all over the world weekly.

Day 1
The procedure takes place in a full service hospital to provide the close monitoring and access to additional medical services or specialists that may become necessary. Patients are admitted the day before the procedure for a complete medical evaluation including history, physical exam, and blood work to evaluate kidney and liver function. Patients also have a Chest X-Ray and an electrocardiogram, and may undergo an exercise stress test if indicated. Patients are instructed to stop taking all opiate medications, and are then started on the Waismann Method pre-medication protocol. Medications are given to prevent or relieve the symptoms of withdrawal, and during this day patients also receive an intravenous infusion of morphine through a PCA to prevent withdrawal symptoms. Additional medications are used to lower the acid content of the stomach and also to blunt the adrenalin or adrenergic response to withdrawal.
It is imperative that patients spend 24-48 hours in-patient so pre-medication can be properly administered to stabilize body functions which help to achieve a smooth and safe procedure.
Day 2
Patients are transferred to the intensive care unit (ICU) to provide close monitoring. Once patients are appropriately sedated and pre-medicated, they are put under anesthesia for 60-90 minutes, and an acute withdrawal is precipitated with medications to block the opiate receptors in the brain while the patient sleeps comfortably. This medically induced withdrawal is controlled and closely monitored by either Dr. Bernstein or Dr. Lowenstein, both Board Certified anesthesiologists who are nationally recognized for their expertise in the use of the Waismann Method. During the anesthesia, patients feel no discomfort, and have no memory of the acute withdrawal once they awaken. After they are awakened from anesthesia, they are closely monitored by one on one nursing staff for the rest of the day and night. Patients are treated as necessary for withdrawal symptoms or discomfort. Most patients feel groggy and experience some mild discomfort after detoxification. Our medical staff is specially trained to ensure patient comfort and safety before and after the detoxification procedure.
Upon awakening, the patient is no longer physically dependent on opiates and has no conscious awareness of experiencing the withdrawal process during the procedure.

Day 3
Patients are transferred from the ICU back to the medical floor where they continue to recover from the withdrawal procedure, receive intravenous fluids and regain their strength. Patients are encouraged to get out of bed and walk and to resume eating regularly. Physicians assess the patient readiness for discharge. About 65% of patients are ready for discharge by the afternoon of Day 3, either to Domus, an aftercare facility, or to their home with a family member.
Day 4
Is for patients who require additional medical care, which have underlying pain issues or other medical conditions that may require a longer supervised recovery The Waismann Method protocol is designed based on each patient individual medical and dependency history. The pre evaluation and assessment are imperative to the success of the procedure. We will not discharge patients until they are medically stable and able to leave the hospital.
Patients are monitored under our care at our hospital to stabilize their mental and physical condition. Usually patients are discharged at least 24-48 hours or when authorized by our physicians.

We are proud to offer our patients the best medicine has to offer for opiate dependency . The major difference between the Waismann Method and other medical detoxifications is the safety, comfort and success of our patients.
Every patient has a different medical and dependency history, and we treat them as individuals with specific needs. Our doctors will not treat a patient with out at least 24 hours of observation, pre-medication, and pre-examination. Pharmaceuticals are the main tool used to achieve the desired result; we need to understand how each patient react to medications, so we can use the appropriate ones to safely achieve our goals of detoxification.
Different doctors in the US have tried this procedure in surgery centers or even offices in order to save on costs. Consequently safety standards are saved as well, compromising results and well being of patients.
The Waismann Method includes a 6 week follow up with a therapist that can be done in person or by phone. Is a great way to help the patients deal with life on life's terms and to have support going back to life without the narcotics.
The cost for the Waismann Method of detoxification is $15,800. In this cost is included 4 days inpatient in the hospital with all the description above.

Clare K.
310-2050808 Office
310-9277155 cell

[GoddessofRATs]

Wow, i had no idea how they did this. I mean, i knew the basics but not exactly how they do it. I'm not sure I'd want to go threw that, even though YOU don't feel the w/d, your body remembers everything. Seems like it would be traumatizing on a subconscious level ya know.

Anyway, that's pretty interesting.

GOR

[Chicago]

Well claire, Dr.Bernstein was 3hrs late but no biggie,
2nd I was sent home back to the hotel from the i.c.u. after 5 bags of saline to hydrate me.
3rd. I think his name was eric, who came to my hotel was a great guy, the one who worked at a health club, but this I went threw at your place at '99, you told me I can have it done in cali or in Israel where there was a war going on, done by your brother I think?

4th the way you described it sounds great, but not how it works b/c YOU HAVE NEVER WENT THREW THIS HAVE YOU.
5TH SINCE I WAS IN SUCH PAIN AT THE hotel you guys even paid for a streatch limo to get back to LaX. B/C YOU GUYS DID NOT KEEP ME THERE MORE THEN 24HRS AFTER MY PROCEDURE, STILL HAVE MY PAPER WORK. YOU TOLD ME ON THE PHONE WHEN THIS IS DONE YOU WILL NEED NOTHING NOT EVEN A PATCH BUT BERSTEIN RX'D ME 2 OF THEM?
WHY?

I HAD BARGNED W/YOU FROM 12 GRAND TO 9GRAND BUT W/HOTEL & AIRFARE WAS COSTING ME 10GRAND. EVERY TIME I CALLED FILLED OUT THE PAPERS I USED A DIFFERENT NAME & FINALLY GOT FROM 12 TO 10 GRAND.
WHY YOU PAY LOWENSTEIN IS ? ALL HE DID WAS MAKE A CHART TO SHOW ME WHERE I WAS AT.
THEN YOUR 90210 PYC DR. SPENT 5 30MIN SESSIONS OVER THE PHONE, WHICH DID NOTHING.
THIS IS WHAT I WENT THREW & HOW I FEEL.

YES I DID THIS AT ORANGE COUNTY HOSPITAL W/BERSTEIN, KOOL GUY. & @ THE WEISMAN INST.
SO AS I SAY, B/C I WENT THREW THIS, I WAS VERY SICK & UNCOMFORTABLE. NOT WORTH THE 15 GRAND WHICH IS ALOT HIGHER THEN BACK IN '99. STAFF WAS GREAT, NICE NURSES.

BUT UNTILL YOU HAVE WENT THREW THIS, PLEASE TAKE IT FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS.
LAST OF ALL, THERE WAS A GUY FROM THE BRONX NY, IN MY HOTEL WHO ALSO COMPLAINED ON HOW HE WAS IN ALOT OF PAIN AFTER THIS.

SO SINCE WRITTEN WHAT YOU HAVE CLAIRE, & I WAS DISCHARGED LESS THEN 24HRS FROM WHEN I HAD MY ULTRA RAPID DETOX, DID YOUR STAFF MAKE A MISTAKE, & WOULD GIVE ME ANOTHER TRY FREE OF CHARGE, B/C SOUNDS LIKE YOU GUYS MADE A BIG MISTAKE W/ME.

I CAN FAX OVER ALL THE PAPERS SHOWING WHEN I GOT IN & WHEN I WAS DISCHARGED.
LESS THEN 24HRS AFTER MY PROCEDURE, WAS IT A MISTAKE BY WHO?
IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO PM ME PLEASE DO OR YOU CAN POST A REPLY ON HERE.
B/C THE WAY YOU EXPLAINED HOW IT'S DONE, & THE WAY YOU GUYS DID IT FOR ME, SOUNDS LIKE WE HAVE A BIG BOO BOO HERE:mad:. HAVE ALL PAPERS TO PROVE YOU GUYS DID ME DIFFERENT.

Also your nurse in the i.c.u told me that they had to hold my legs down b/c they thought i was gonna have a seizure, the kicking was that bad she told me?
Rapid detox is medicine and is as good as the dosctors that practice. This is not the way it should be done, and is absurd to keep a patient aunder anesthesia for so long..
In most cases this is how its done...The Waismann Method of detoxification Under Anesthesia utilizes the most advanced medical technique available for opiate dependency. We have the highest success rate in the country.Patients are treated with the highest level of professionalism, dignity and respect. We are located in Orange County, So California; where we receive patients from all over the world weekly. Day 1The procedure takes place in a full service hospital to provide the close monitoring and access to additional medical services or specialists that may become necessary. Patients are admitted the day before the procedure for a complete medical evaluation including history, physical exam, and blood work to evaluate kidney and liver function. Patients also have a Chest X-Ray and an electrocardiogram, and may undergo an exercise stress test if indicated. Patients are instructed to stop taking all opiate medications, and are then started on the Waismann Method pre-medication protocol. Medications are given to prevent or relieve the symptoms of withdrawal, and during this day patients also receive an intravenous infusion of morphine through a PCA to prevent withdrawal symptoms. Additional medications are used to lower the acid content of the stomach and also to blunt the adrenalin or adrenergic response to withdrawal.It is imperative that patients spend 24-48 hours in-patient so pre-medication can be properly administered to stabilize body functions which help to achieve a smooth and safe procedure.Day 2Patients are transferred to the intensive care unit (ICU) to provide close monitoring. Once patients are appropriately sedated and pre-medicated, they are put under anesthesia for 60-90 minutes, and an acute withdrawal is precipitated with medications to block the opiate receptors in the brain while the patient sleeps comfortably. This medically induced withdrawal is controlled and closely monitored by either Dr. Bernstein or Dr. Lowenstein, both Board Certified anesthesiologists who are nationally recognized for their expertise in the use of the Waismann Method. During the anesthesia, patients feel no discomfort, and have no memory of the acute withdrawal once they awaken. After they are awakened from anesthesia, they are closely monitored by one on one nursing staff for the rest of the day and night. Patients are treated as necessary for withdrawal symptoms or discomfort. Most patients feel groggy and experience some mild discomfort after detoxification. Our medical staff is specially trained to ensure patient comfort and safety before and after the detoxification procedure.Upon awakening, the patient is no longer physically dependent on opiates and has no conscious awareness of experiencing the withdrawal process during the procedure.Day 3Patients are transferred from the ICU back to the medical floor where they continue to recover from the withdrawal procedure, receive intravenous fluids and regain their strength. Patients are encouraged to get out of bed and walk and to resume eating regularly. Physicians assess the patient readiness for discharge. About 65% of patients are ready for discharge by the afternoon of Day 3, either to Domus, an aftercare facility, or to their home with a family member.Day 4Is for patients who require additional medical care, which have underlying pain issues or other medical conditions that may require a longer supervised recovery The Waismann Method protocol is designed based on each patient individual medical and dependency history. The pre evaluation and assessment are imperative to the success of the procedure. We will not discharge patients until they are medically stable and able to leave the hospital.Patients are monitored under our care at our hospital to stabilize their mental and physical condition. Usually patients are discharged at least 24-48 hours or when authorized by our physicians.We are proud to offer our patients the best medicine has to offer for opiate dependency . The major difference between the Waismann Method and other medical detoxifications is the safety, comfort and success of our patients.Every patient has a different medical and dependency history, and we treat them as individuals with specific needs. Our doctors will not treat a patient with out at least 24 hours of observation, pre-medication, and pre-examination. Pharmaceuticals are the main tool used to achieve the desired result; we need to understand how each patient react to medications, so we can use the appropriate ones to safely achieve our goals of detoxification.Different doctors in the US have tried this procedure in surgery centers or even offices in order to save on costs. Consequently safety standards are saved as well, compromising results and well being of patients.The Waismann Method includes a 6 week follow up with a therapist that can be done in person or by phone. Is a great way to help the patients deal with life on life's terms and to have support going back to life without the narcotics.The cost for the Waismann Method of detoxification is $15,800. In this cost is included 4 days inpatient in the hospital with all the description above.Clare K.310-2050808 Office310-9277155 cell

[Duckfeet]

I should have let you know, that this is a *hugely* controversial topic on here, more so even than it used to be...but it's legit...have at it....I know I google around, and have heard stories...sure haven't heard many positive ones, tho everybody wishes it were true. hell, even the "medium slow" detoxes, like the 21 day one, rarely work, and this one is controversial as hell...but again, all those who have had *positive* experiences with fast detox, oughtta post...I know I paid five grand for a really nice sounding medium slow detox, combined w/oxycontin and all kinds of nice stuff...but once it was over...it was over... :-)

[EleusisII]

I remember reading an article where they interviewed a doc that did these. (Not anything credible like the Weisman method. Just an asshole doc who did the whole thing in a hotel) He said that part of the huge cost, is to make addicts know that addiction has a price.

I know. What the fuck?!?

Anyways, it seems like a good option, if the only thing holding you back from quitting, is wds. And if you can afford to blow 15 grand just like that.
Because all you pay for, really is to be free of those four days of hellish wd's. (If someone would give me 15 grand to go through really bad wd's I'd probably do it. But that's just me)
The hard part is to stay clean, as everybody here can attest to.

[Suboxstitute]

Is this person Claire from Waismann really a "moderator" on opiophile as her title states?

It just seems weird, is all. Was hers a current post or am I dreaming... or maybe coming out of URD.

Confused.

[Duckfeet]

To me, it's like Ibogaine detox, a few *very* passionate true believers...and the rest of us typically agnostic or sometimes downright belligerent in our denial...and like most passionate causes...well, we'll see...

[I'm-Nod-Addicted]

http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=444

[havok]

Is this person Claire from Waismann really a "moderator" on opiophile as her title states?


Yes, she is a moderator of the Anesthesia Assisted Detoxification forum.


An addict can do every different kind of rehab, detox, mmt, suboxone, but if the addict doesn't truely want to quit using there is nothing that is gonna work. They might get clean for a little while, but eventually they will go back to using until they truely WANT to quit. You have to really want it, and even then it isn't easy.

[Suboxstitute]

Yes, she is a moderator of the Anesthesia Assisted Detoxification forum.

Thank you. Guess it isn't a very active forum. No longer confused.

[SpecialGuy69]

wow thanks Chi- great to hear what its like from someone I trust. I know people who honestly believe this is their "escape hatch" when they are ready to quit they will just pay the money and be clean, quick and easy. I try to tell them, but I feel like I'm telling a 5 year old santa isn't real.

Waissman really put their foot in their mouth on this one! What kind of disreputable, irresponsible doctor did your detox? Oh wait it was us? (backs out of thread slowly)

[Duckfeet]

Yup: there's no free lunch...but people with money will always look for one. So did I, but I didn't buy into this one, but bought into the meditox: methadone to oxys to bupe, and it worked just about as good as anything else...most expensive oxys I ever got...

[mollywopped]

I've done it also, but not quite the same as Chicago. when I did it, I went to the doc on day 1 and he scripted me for tramadol, clonodine, valium and some sleeping pills. I took all of that for about 4 days before I went in for the detox. I felt alright, not great, but the tramadol kept the w/d's away for the most part.

So on the day of the detox, I took 25 or 30 mgs of Valium and went down to the doc's office. The sedate the shit out of you, not totally asleep, but very very sedated. Kinda in and out of sleep, but not full anesthesia. Then the doc comes in and gives you a tiny shot of narcan every half hour or so. The shots get progressively bigger as the day goes on.

I felt alright during the procedure. I never puked or shit myself and wasn't in any pain. The only bad part was the restless legs. I would get it real bad for like 10 minutes, then they would sedate me more and I would calm down. That went on most of the day. However, a friend of mine did the same thing with the same doc and he slept all the way thruogh the whole thing. They had to wake him up to go home.

Anyway, the narcan thing lasted about 5 or 6 hours I think and then I went home. I came back a week or so later and they gave me a naltrexone pellet. It is a little thing that looks like the little plastic thing that comes in big pill bottles to keep them dry. He gives you a local and then cuts a little slit and shoves that bitch in there. It is a few inches below your belt line.

That was it. Overall, I thought it was a good way to detox, even though it cost about $5,000. If I had the money, I would do it again, it was not a big deal. The only problem is that you go from strung out to clean so quick that your mind doesn't have a chance to change. I relapsed fairly quickly, with in a few months. My buddy that i mentioned though, this was his first detox and he has not touched drugs since. It has been almost 2 years.

So, all in all, I would recomend it. The naltrexone is supposed to make it so you get no effects from opiates, making your chances of staying clean better. It worked really well for awhile, until I found out that if you just do a big shot you can still get high. So, intense counseling or therapy or something is needed to go along with this if you really want to stay clean. shit, I guess a real desire to stay clean would probably be enough, I don't know.

[EleusisII]

Yeah, but doesn't naltrexone affect your natural endorphins as well? I heard people are feeling horrible while on it. Never happy, never excited, nothing.

[eerased]

Before I read chi's post after Clair's Post I was sold.. I was saving up and headed to Cali... Dang Chi that to bad you spent all that loot too..

I wonder and I'm really curious how many true opiophiles have went clean and not looked back?? Anyone know? I'd love to know?

[EleusisII]

I wonder and I'm really curious how many true opiophiles have went clean and not looked back?? Anyone know? I'd love to know?
01-05-2008 07:14 AM

Now, why on earth would you do something like that?!? ;)

[pharmboy]

I went through a RD a couple years back in Richmond, VA.

Can't complain, I stayed off stuff for six months then realized

I'M IN CHRONIC PAIN ALL THE TIME. Was very dissapointed that

my tollerance wasn't lower. But what ya gona do.

So Claire, I would like to know the pharmacutical details like

what is used to knock you out during the procedure and if there

are any drugs like Valium given afterwords, for how long, how

much Etc.... Thanx. .:jumping-s

[sunburny]

Yeah, but doesn't naltrexone affect your natural endorphins as well? I heard people are feeling horrible while on it. Never happy, never excited, nothing.

I just read a book (Animals in Translation) that says that a side effect of naltrexone is increased socialization. Not having the natural opiates, causes people to seek out social contact. I think it's because seratonin is caused by social interaction and natrexone doesn't block seratonin.

Opiates never make me happy, I'm happy to have it (by association), but the effect is different.

I believe mu receptors aren't built for happy, they are built to block trauma (my dumbass guess).

[Duckfeet]

Cheaper to go to any methadone clinic, and get on the 21 day detox...most places u r allowed to get on it twice, before they force u on maintenance...have some pills stashed, and then head out to the desert or somewhere until u feel better, or go to AA, or whatever, man when I *really* wanted off this shit, I did it, but both times I had to change fucking everything, including the state I was in...

But the places I've paid good money for, didn't change things, it's just tough monkey, and most of us fight it all our lives, get some success, then back again...but just "wanting to stop really bad" is never enough...because when u start getting sick, u don't want to stop "really bad," and your reasons start seeming really meager, in light of how bad u feel...

The only people I've know personally, who actually got off, and seemed to have stayed off, are a few guys in AA, but on the other hand, nothing is written, the past doesn't *cause* the future, you can make your own rules...I just find most of the more expensive detoxes a scam...or rich people and movie stars wouldn't be having the same problems we do...

[pharmboy]

Fifteen thosand dollors is too much.

10 bups 200 Valium

yer good to go.

Fourteen thousand ninehundred some saved.

[bronyraur]

Is this person Claire from Waismann really a "moderator" on opiophile as her title states?

It just seems weird, is all. Was hers a current post or am I dreaming... or maybe coming out of URD.

Confused.

Waismann is a moderator of the Anesthesia Assisted Detoxification forum only.

We don't just let people put "moderator" below their name unless they are one.

[Nate]

I don't doubt that this procedure is effective, especially those who have MASSIVE amounts of heroin and or done built up in their system.

Unfortunetly, the reality is, even when we get clean, the chance of relapse is so high. I supose you could relate it to playing the lottery, gonna hit it big, or the money just goes down the drain.

[Chicago]

I am waiting for a response from here (Claire).
As you all see what she described is not what happen to me:mad:
I also pulled all my paper work from the weisman institute, showing what ,when , where this all happened. I was fucked, or screwed out of 10grand, minus meds.
Why not make things right. AND DO THIS THE RIGHT TIME THIS TIME AROUND.

[SpecialGuy69]

I am waiting for a response from here (Claire).
As you all see what she described is not what happen to me:mad:
I also pulled all my paper work from the weisman institute, showing what ,when , where this all happened. I was fucked, or screwed out of 10grand, minus meds.
Why not make things right. AND DO THIS THE RIGHT TIME THIS TIME AROUND.
Waissman would look a lot better in my eyes (and I would feel comfortable referring people there) if they did the right thing here and gave Chi another shot at it for free...

[Nate]

Waissman would look a lot better in my eyes (and I would feel comfortable referring people there) if they did the right thing here and gave Chi another shot at it for free...

I second this.

[eerased]

Why not make things right. AND DO THIS THE RIGHT TIME THIS TIME AROUND.

I guess the reason I want to know if there is "any" success rate because I've not been able to be clean sense I started opis. I did MMT twice for 6months each time. I didn't use anything at that time, besides 110mg of methadone a day.

I want to know because I genuinely wish I could give life a shot clean. Just try it to see what it's like. I know I will never quit. I cant. I change my ppl, places and things once a month. It doesn't work for me.

I would be curious as to them (wiseguy) taking Chi back for another round on them to prove that what she said was even remotely true. Cuz we all know Chi will come back and tell us the truth. In that case I would be willing to give it a shot. But, I bet she doesnt even come back and respond. She probably has it set up to when there is a post in her particular forum she comes checks it out and that's that. Looks like a copy and paste reply to me.

Shit I get real low and depressed when I think about everything we "cant" do because I HAVE to have my shit.

I love opys don't get me wrong but I don't remember life before them so I just want to see what it would be like to rapid detox and go straight for as long as my brain will let me..

EDIT: I would also be curious to see the statistics they spew at the "Rap Det"

[EleusisII]

Waissman would look a lot better in my eyes (and I would feel comfortable referring people there) if they did the right thing here and gave Chi another shot at it for free...

Is that a joke? Are you serious?
I think his failure to quit was first of all because he did a bag right after coming back (How is that Weismans fault?!?), and that he didn't follow the procedure as he was supposed to.

After this they started to give Naltrexone pills 50mg, I took it for 1 day after that ONLY b/c I was not ready, this was my 1rst detox, anyway they wanted me to stay in the i.c.u 1 more day but I just couldn't knowing I could keep shitting on the bed & puking.

I mean, come on... We all like a free lunch, but in this case, and I'm not trying to dis you chi, he got what he payed for: Anesthesia assisted detox. Nobody promised him he'll stay clean, thats up to yourself.

BTW Chi, are you sure that it was Weisman that did it? I know that there are many different providers of this technique.

If I was willing to part with that kind of money, and most importantly, if I really wanted to quit, I think Weismans is a great option.

[I'm-Nod-Addicted]

Is that a joke? Are you serious?
I think his failure to quit was first of all because he did a bag right after coming back (How is that Weismans fault?!?), and that he didn't follow the procedure as he was supposed to.


I mean, come on... We all like a free lunch, but in this case, and I'm not trying to dis you chi, he got what he payed for: Anesthesia assisted detox. Nobody promised him he'll stay clean, thats up to yourself.

BTW Chi, are you sure that it was Weisman that did it? I know that there are many different providers of this technique.

If I was willing to part with that kind of money, and most importantly, if I really wanted to quit, I think Weismans is a great option.



Did you even read this whole thread? :confused:

[Chicago]

PLEASE READ MY ENTIRE POST!
YES I WENT TO WAISMAN INSTITUTE, IT WAS DONE BY DR.BERSTEIN & LOWENSTEIN.
The reason I am sour about this, is b/c what she described on how the procedure goes is not how it happened for me at all:mad:.
I have all the papper work to prove what Dr. did it(Berstein/Lowenstein@Wasiesman institute.
I arrived at 12p.m. tuesday night, w/the meds to last me the entire day, which basicly 7hrs after I got in & got my meds I was already being ck'e in the hospital at 7a.m.
Which she said they give you 24/48 hrs of meds before you get ck'd in. For me it was ONLY 7hrs, not the 24/48 hrs as said, so thats 1.
2nd, I was brought up on the hospital floor after only being in Cali since 12 midnight,then w/out any sleep & packing all my stuff up@ the hotel it was already 7a.m. Time to ck in the hospital.
So I was in a hospital be for being detoxed on morphine w/all the tests done less then 24hrs, exactly 20hrs top rather then the 48hrs as promised.
3rd, 2nd day I was put in the i.c.u. having the procedure done at 4p.m. So only in the hospital for 28hrs at this point.
4th, I was let out from the i.c.u. after 5 bags of saline bags in me to hydrate for energy, then thrown in the shower, & they dressed me & said good bye go to the hotel & take a cab back to the hospital as WEAK AS YOU ARE,FOR YOU DR.BERSTEIN CK UP. RX'D CATAPRESS PATCHESS 2 1MG PATCHES 1 ON EACH ARM,Then 12 30mg caps of temezapam,& spme levisin for the stomach & last prilosec for the acid reflex.
She said after the i.c.u. you are brought back up to the floor for a min of 24 to 48hrs, WHICH NEVER WAS I BROUGHT UP BUT LET TO GOP BACK TO MY HOTEL,STR8 AFTER I.C.U. WHICH I BELIEVE VERY STRONGLY IF I WAS BROUGHT BACK UP TO THE FLOOR THIS WOULD HAVE CHANGED MY OUTLOOK, B/C I WAS DYING SICK STILL AT THIS POINT BEING WHEELED OUT ON A CHAIR?WHY?
SO WHAT SHE SAYS HAPPENS WAS FAR FROM WHAT HAPPENED TO ME, SO IF I WAS DONE CORRECT AS SHE SAID WOULD HAVE GAVE ME MORE NALTREXONE IN MY BODY AS WELL AS OTHER MEDS TO MAKE ME FEEL BETTER RATHER THEN SUFFERING LIKE GOING COLD TURKEY IN THE HOTEL ROOM W/OUT EATING FOR DAYS, WHICH IN THE HOSPITAL WOULD HAVE BEEN FED, I COULD NOT WALK EVEN BARELY MAKING IT TO THE WASHROOM IF IN THE HOSPITAL I WOULD HAVE BEEN TAKEN CARE OF IN THE CORRECT WAY.
I HAVE ALL THE PAPERS FROM THE WASIEMEN INSTITUTE FROM WHEN I GOT IN TO WHEN I GOT DISCHARGED, EVEN HAVE MY BRACELET STILL. SO I WAS DEPRIVED IN MY PROCEDURE IN MANY WAYS, SO I THINK IF THIS WAS DONE IN THE CORRECT WAY I WOULD BE CLEAN TILL THIS DAY. NO JOKE. HOW CAN I EAT AS WELL AS WALK TO THE BATHROOM, IF IN THE HOSPITAL & WAS BEING FED I WOULD HAVE BEEN OK & BEEN ON A DIFFERENT MIND FRAME.
CLAIRE MAKES IT SOUND GREAT BUT THATS NOT WHAT HAPPEND TO ME SO I THINK I WAS JIPPED OUT OF 10 GRAND MY FAMILY'S SAVINGS, THEY ARE STILL BROKE FOR THIS TILL THIS DAY:o.
SO GOT IN TUESDAY AT MIDNIGHT, CHECKED IN AT ORANGE COAST HOSPITAL AT 7a.m.
PROCEDURE WAS DONE WEDNESDAY AT 3/4 P.M. @ I.C.U. RELEASED FROM I.C.U. THURSDAY 11A.M. SO TOPS THIS WAS 2 1/2 DAYS. DOES THIS SOUND LIKE WHAT I PAYED FOR.
THE PAIN OF BEING LET GO WAY TO EARLY & FROM HOSPITAL HURT ME BAD, LOST 15lbs, from weds to thurs ONLY.
THEY EVEN ORDERED A STREATCH LIMO FOR ME TO GET BACK TO LaX B/C THEY APPOLIZED THAT I WAS IN SO MUCH PAIN. WHY DID THEY DO THAT UNLESS THEY NO THERE WAS SOMETHING WRONG, ALSO THEY WERE GOING TO UPGRADE ME TO 1RST CLASS TICKETS FOR MY FLIGHT B/C I WAS IN SO MUCH PAIN & WEAK, BUT MY FLIGHT DID NOT HAVE 1RST CLASS, SO I WAS PUKING ON THE PLANE LEFT & RIGHT, W/MY LEGS CRAMPED IN VERY BAD PAIN.:mad:
I WAS PROMISED SOMETHING ELSE & DID NOT GET WHAT I PAYED FOR. 10 GRAND IS ALOT TO MY FAMILY. IF I GOT WHAT SHE (CLAIRE) DESCRIBED, CHANCE MY LIFE COULD BE A WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY. REALLY NO JOKE @ WAISMAN & ELEUSISII.

PLIs that a joke? Are you serious?
I think his failure to quit was first of all because he did a bag right after coming back (How is that Weismans fault?!?), and that he didn't follow the procedure as he was supposed to.


I mean, come on... We all like a free lunch, but in this case, and I'm not trying to dis you chi, he got what he payed for: Anesthesia assisted detox. Nobody promised him he'll stay clean, thats up to yourself.

BTW Chi, are you sure that it was Weisman that did it? I know that there are many different providers of this technique.

If I was willing to part with that kind of money, and most importantly, if I really wanted to quit, I think Weismans is a great option.

[eerased]

Chi,
I'm sorry to hear that you were treated so bad, That is Not acceptable in any circumstance especially not one that cost you and your family that amount of money and then to be flown there have nobody but you and be dumped in a hotel..

That's just plain dirty....

[Waismann]

You had your treatment in 99 that is almost 10 years ago . A cardiologist does not have to have a heart attack to know how to treat a patient. So I don't think is a fair comment to say I don't know what I am talking about until I go through it.
As I mentioned this is medicine, and as with all medicine there is a progression in treatment protocol. When you did it the procedure probably lasted 6 hours now we are able to do it in less then 2 hours to minimize the risks.
Regarding you leaving to a hotel room, we have understood through the years that most opiate dependent patients need extra time to adapt to "any" discomfort of the transition...How much discomfort will be determined not just by the procedure outcome, but by the physical and mental state of the patient. We all handle things with different intensities. We offer our patients that best available medicine for dependency, but at the same time with give them respect and dignity. The cost has gone up and so as what we offer...Hopefully one day will be able to get the financial aid to help all patients ...

[Chicago]

Thank You for seeing my side, 10 grand to my family is like $500 dollars to other familys, we are still suffering from this:(.
I JUST WISH I GOT WHAT SHE HAD DESCRIBED, MY WHOLE LIFE COULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT, 4REAL NO JOKE GUYS. WHEN YOU GO & PAY ALL THAT KIND OF MONEY FOR SOMETHING LIKE THIS, YOU REALLY EXPECT TO GET IT, BUT BEING ALL ALONE & SCARED FROM WHAT I JUST WENT THREW WAS JUST CRAZY, 1 TIME THEY SENT A FREIND OF DR.BERSTIEN NAMED ERIC CAME BUY FOR 15 MINS, JUST TO TELL ME TO HANG IN THERE, WHILE GOING TO HIS DRUG HABIT, I ASKED WHAT WAS HIS STORY TOLD ME HE ONLY HAD SMOKED CRAKED FOR A LITTLE WHILE, BUT HELPS HIS BUDDY THE DR. TO TALK TO PATIENTS WHO ARE ALL ALONE W/OUT FAMILY, TO SEE IF THEY CAN HELP, KOOL GUY BUT I WAS YOUNG SCARED LONLEY & WANTED TO DIE,FROM WHAT MY BRAIN JUST WENT THREW, BUT HE ONLY STAYED FOR 15 MINS.:mad:.
WOULD IT BE THAT HARD TO CHILL W/A GUY FROM CHICAGO ALONE & SCARED FOR A LITTLE BIT LONGER, HE WAS GETTING PAID FROM WAISMEN OR ATLEAST THE DR.BERSTEIN B/C HE TOLD ME.
THANKS EERASED FOR REALLY UNDERSTANDING ME.
I ALSO THINK IF SHE WOULD GIVE ME ANOTHER CHANCE OF TAKING ME IN FOR ALL THE MISTAKES THAT WERE MADE FOR FREE, B/C HOSPITALS & ALL THE MONEY THIS WASIMAN PLACE MAKE CAN DO A PRO BONO ON ME, IF SHE DID RIGHT THINK OF ALL THE CUSTOMERS SHE CAN GET OFF THIS SITE IF SHE WOULD DO RIGHT & STEP UP TO THE PLATE & DO WHAT IS PROMISED.:mad:
THATS ALL I WANT. I HAVE ALL THE PAPERS FROM THIS, THE HOSPITALS, THE, DR.'S & THE BIG WASIMEN INSTITUTE PACKET OF ALL THIS.

Chi,

I'm sorry to hear that you were treated so bad, That is Not acceptable in any circumstance especially not one that cost you and your family that amount of money and then to be flown there have nobody but you and be dumped in a hotel..


That's just plain dirty....

[eerased]

If it's any help she is NOW Right this minute looking at this thread!!

[Chicago]

BUT WHAT YOU GUYS DID FOR ME IN LAST MONTHS OF '99. IS NOT EVEN WHAT ALL THE PAPER WORK IN THE PACKET PROMISED ME. I CAN FAX THIS TO YOU, HAVE ALL THE PAPER WORK. I CAN GIVE YOU MY NAME & YOU WILL SEE MY PROCEDURE WAS DONE WRONG. WHY DID YOU GUYS APPOLIZE & GET ME A LIMO & TRY TO UPGRADE MY TICKETS, BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIABLE.
JUST THINK IF YOU DID A PRO BONO OF ALL THE THOUSENDS OF PEOPLE YOU CAN GET AS CUSTOMERS OFF THIS SITE, JUST THINK. THATS ALOT OF PEOPLE/
I JUST THINK I SHOULD HAVE GOT WHAT PROMISED, YOU WOULD TO CLAIRE, MY FAMILY DIPED INTO THERE SAVINGS, BROKE TILL THIS DAY.
I JUST WANT WHAT I SHOULD HAVE GOT & I DID NOT, EVEN IF YOU CUT THE TIME DOWN OF THE URD, U LET ME GO BACK TO THE HOTEL FROM THE I.C.U. 12HRS AFTER THE PROCEDURE ALONE, WEAK & VERY SICK.:o:(

You had your treatment in 99 that is almost 10 years ago . A cardiologist does not have to have a heart attack to know how to treat a patient. So I don't think is a fair comment to say I don't know what I am talking about until I go through it.
As I mentioned this is medicine, and as with all medicine there is a progression in treatment protocol. When you did it the procedure probably lasted 6 hours now we are able to do it in less then 2 hours to minimize the risks.
Regarding you leaving to a hotel room, we have understood through the years that most opiate dependent patients need extra time to adapt to "any" discomfort of the transition...How much discomfort will be determined not just by the procedure outcome, but by the physical and mental state of the patient. We all handle things with different intensities. We offer our patients that best available medicine for dependency, but at the same time with give them respect and dignity. The cost has gone up and so as what we offer...Hopefully one day will be able to get the financial aid to help all patients ...

[SpecialGuy69]

Chi- even though its the right thing to do, and they SHOULD give you another chance, they won't. I'd feel bad if you got your hopes up, dont expect anything from US medical establishment and you wont be disappointed.


I wish we could nominate Chi as the opiophile Rapid Detox guinea pig- if he says it works and its painless, I'm sure lots of others would follow.

[Chicago]

ALSO WANTED TO SAY IF YOU WOULD BE GREAT ENUFF TO GIVE THIS ANOTHER GO THE CORRECT WAY, I WOULD BE WILLING TO GO MOVE TO ANY REHAB FACILITY ANYWHERE IN THE U.S.
JUST TO SHOW EVER ONE OF THE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IF THIS IS DONE CORRECTLY IN YOUR WAY...AS YOU STATE IS THE CORRECT & MOST EFFECTIVE METHOD WOULD WORK, LETS SHOW THE PE0PLE.
I WILL DO WHAT IT TAKES IF THIS IS DONE CORRECTLY THIS TIME.
THINK OF ALL THE PEOPLE THAT COME ON THIS SITE FROM ALL OVER & READ THIS, WHO TELL A FREIND WHO TELLS A FREIND,WHO TELLS ANOTHER EXC, WITH USING ME & TELLING I AM WILLING TO DO ANY & ALL REHAB AFTER THE PROCEDURE IS DONE & BRINGING & POSTING ALL MY RESULTS UP, YOU WOULD MIN TRIPLE YOUR 2008 YEAR JUST ON THIS SITE.
ALL I WANT IS TO GET WHAT I WAS TOLD & BY EVEN READING THE PACKET YOU SENT ME DAYS BEFORE THE PROCEDURE OF DIRECTIONS & EVEN THE AFTER CARE, THIS IS NOT WHAT I GOT CLAIRE.
JUST THINK OF WHEN SOMEONE GOES FOR OPEN HEART SURGERY, THAT IS WHAT THEY EXPECT, EXAMPLE EXPECTING A TRIPLE BYPASS & ONLY GET A DOUBLE OR EVEN WORSE A SINGLE BYPASS, IS WHAT I FEEL HAPPEND FOR.
SO PLEASE FEEL WHERE I AM COMMING FROM, WAISMANN DID THIS, AND THAT IS WHO I PAID, DON'T YOU THINK I SHOULD GET WHAT IS EXPECTED.
THINK OF WHAT THIS CAN DO FOR THE WAISMAN INSTITUTE IN MANY WAYS.:rolleyes:

You had your treatment in 99 that is almost 10 years ago . A cardiologist does not have to have a heart attack to know how to treat a patient. So I don't think is a fair comment to say I don't know what I am talking about until I go through it.
As I mentioned this is medicine, and as with all medicine there is a progression in treatment protocol. When you did it the procedure probably lasted 6 hours now we are able to do it in less then 2 hours to minimize the risks.
Regarding you leaving to a hotel room, we have understood through the years that most opiate dependent patients need extra time to adapt to "any" discomfort of the transition...How much discomfort will be determined not just by the procedure outcome, but by the physical and mental state of the patient. We all handle things with different intensities. We offer our patients that best available medicine for dependency, but at the same time with give them respect and dignity. The cost has gone up and so as what we offer...Hopefully one day will be able to get the financial aid to help all patients ...

[Chicago]

I NO TELL ME ABOU IT.
BUT THINK WHAT THIS CAN DO FOR THE WAISMANN INSTITUTE.
THIS CAN DO A HELL OF ALOT 4 THEM AS WELL AS KINDA RUIN THE WAISMANN NAME ON THIS SITE.
LIKE THAT SONG "HEARD IT FROM A FREIND WHO HEARD FROM A FREIND, JUST WHEN PEOPLE GO TO MMT CLINICS ALL PEOPLE DO IS GOSSIP ON WHERE TO GET THE BEST HEROIN JUST LIKE IN THE NEEDLE EXCHANGES.:rolleyes:
W/ALL THE MONEY THEY PULL IN EACH YEAR THIS IS NOTHING, & COULD DO SO MUCH FOR THEM AS WELL, IF YOU CATCH MY DRIFT.;)
BUT THANKS FOR LETTEM ME NO HOW YOU FEEL ON THIS & HOPE YOU SEE WHAT I AM TRYING TO GET AS WELL:rolleyes:

Chi- even though its the right thing to do, and they SHOULD give you another chance, they won't. I'd feel bad if you got your hopes up, dont expect anything from US medical establishment and you wont be disappointed.



I wish we could nominate Chi as the opiophile Rapid Detox guinea pig- if he says it works and its painless, I'm sure lots of others would follow.

[Chicago]

THIS WHAT YOU REALLY TYPED CLAIRE, THE REST OF THE STEPS ARE SOMETHING YOU POST ON ALL WEB SITES B/C I CHECKED THIS OUT, THIS IS WHAT YOU TELL PEOPLE IN CORRECT MEDICAL TERMS & ALSO ON A INDETAIL RECIPE KINDA POSTED IN ALOT OF PLACES.:rolleyes:
SO IN YOUR OWN WORDS JUST LIKE THE BOTTOM PART I HAVE UP REALLY IS IN YOUR OWN WORDS.
SO PLEASE GET BACK TO ME OR ALL OF US @ OPIOPHILE.ORG IN YOUR OWN WORDS ON WHAT HAPPEND.:)
IN WHAT YOU WROTE BELOW IN YOUR OWN WORDS, IS AS GOOD AS IT'S DOCTORS THAT PRACTICE.
YOU ALSO MENTION THIS IS NOT THE WAY IT SHOULD BE DONE. PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEAN...
IT WAS THE WAISMANN INSTITUTE DID MY ULTRA RAOID DETOX, SO IF THAT IS WHAT YOU SAY & IT IS AFACT YOU DID TYPE THIS, PLEASE EXPLAIN B/C THIS SMELLS REALLY FUNNY AFTER RE READING YOUR POST. I THINK WE ALL @ OPIOPHILE WOULD LOVE TO HEAR THIS? IS THIS A ADMITED MISTAKE?

[quote=Waismann;216605]Rapid detox is medicine and is as good as the dosctors that practice. This is not the way it should be done, and is absurd to keep a patient aunder anesthesia for so long..In most cases this is how its done...

[GoddessofRATs]

Gosh, it sounds like you had just an awful experience. I'm so sory you had to go through that. I'd be furious.

Are you going to complain to anyone? Now ure who you could complain to though.

I'm so sorry. I can't imagine having to go through what you did. You are very strong.

GOR



I WAS PROMISED SOMETHING ELSE & DID NOT GET WHAT I PAYED FOR. 10 GRAND IS ALOT TO MY FAMILY. IF I GOT WHAT SHE (CLAIRE) DESCRIBED, CHANCE MY LIFE COULD BE A WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY. REALLY NO JOKE @ WAISMAN & ELEUSISII.
PL

[Chicago]

YES, BUT CHECK OUT WHAT SHE SAID, AND GOT CAUGHT IN SAYING IT WAS DONE WRONG & SAYING THAT IT'S AS ONLY GOOD AS THE DOCTORS & LOOK WHO THE DOCTORS WERE & WHERE IT WAS DONE.
I HOPE MY POINT WAS VERY MUCH PROVED IN THAT POST OF HERS.:(:rolleyes:

THIS WHAT YOU REALLY TYPED CLAIRE, THE REST OF THE STEPS ARE SOMETHING YOU POST ON ALL WEB SITES B/C I CHECKED THIS OUT, THIS IS WHAT YOU TELL PEOPLE IN CORRECT MEDICAL TERMS & ALSO ON A INDETAIL RECIPE KINDA POSTED IN ALOT OF PLACES.:rolleyes:

SO IN YOUR OWN WORDS JUST LIKE THE BOTTOM PART I HAVE UP REALLY IS IN YOUR OWN WORDS.

SO PLEASE GET BACK TO ME OR ALL OF US @ OPIOPHILE.ORG IN YOUR OWN WORDS ON WHAT HAPPEND.:)

IN WHAT YOU WROTE BELOW IN YOUR OWN WORDS, IS AS GOOD AS IT'S DOCTORS THAT PRACTICE.

YOU ALSO MENTION THIS IS NOT THE WAY IT SHOULD BE DONE. PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEAN...

IT WAS THE WAISMANN INSTITUTE DID MY ULTRA RAOID DETOX, SO IF THAT IS WHAT YOU SAY & IT IS AFACT YOU DID TYPE THIS, PLEASE EXPLAIN B/C THIS SMELLS REALLY FUNNY AFTER RE READING YOUR POST. I THINK WE ALL @ OPIOPHILE WOULD LOVE TO HEAR THIS? IS THIS A ADMITED MISTAKE?

[quote=Waismann;216605]Rapid detox is medicine and is as good as the dosctors that practice. This is not the way it should be done, and is absurd to keep a patient aunder anesthesia for so long..In most cases this is how its done...


Gosh, it sounds like you had just an awful experience. I'm so sory you had to go through that. I'd be furious.


Are you going to complain to anyone? Now ure who you could complain to though.


I'm so sorry. I can't imagine having to go through what you did. You are very strong.


GOR

[EleusisII]

Did you even read this whole thread?

Not as close as I should have... Been reading it in and off for the last couple of days, so I missed Chi's detailed rundown, and commented on his first post.

Now that I read Chi's other post on the experience it in detail, no man, that doesn't sound right to me... I take back what I wrote. Shit, you shouldn't have done a bag that fast, but I sure as hell can understand why. Didn't think you were nowhere in that bad of a shape. Sounds like something went wrong during your detox. Sorry bro.

[I'm-Nod-Addicted]

Not as close as I should have...

Bad mistake....especially on Chicago's posts! :p :D

[SpecialGuy69]

Mods/Admins- might want to change the title from "urd" to Rapid Detox or something, because I almost skipped this thread before I figured out what urd is. I'm sure a lot of people have overlooked this thread because its hard to figure out what the thread is gonna be about from the title.

[EleusisII]

Bad mistake....especially on Chicago's posts! :p :D

LOL! Yeah, they could be alittle easier on the eye sometimes... Sometimes I get the feeling he's screaming at me :)

[Chicago]

my caps key is burnt from nodding off from smoking,lol;):D
LOL! Yeah, they could be alittle easier on the eye sometimes... Sometimes I get the feeling he's screaming at me :)

[EleusisII]

At least it's not the space key, like that dude the other night... Ya know, the guy who in a later post complained that he couldn't clean the keyboard cause he huffed the keyboardcleaner! LOL!

[mikells43]

I do not like the URD's. I think they are a 17k tolerence reducer. thats alll. they are unsafe, they really take you thru the "hellish" parts of w/d. but if anything id go thru the first 9 days 4 times if somehow there was a way to rid PAWS. paws is what sends more people back out to using than feeling like shit for 8 days of puking/shitting and general shittyness.

there are places like "midwest rapid opiate detox spec"
http://www.mrods.com/

of course the noted wisemann instutite
http://www.opiates.com/rapid-detox.html

Opiate Detox Inst
http://www.rapiddetoxhelp.com/index.htm

rapid opiate detox
http://www.opiate-rapid-detox.com/

Florida detox
http://www.floridadetox.com/

and thats all im posting lol

my opinion on them is there is no quick fix. and like i said, i would go thru the inital detox for a month if they could take away paws. cause paws is what gets me, i can do the puking, shitting, feeling like shit and having people pamper me but the paws i can't do. thats why im on bupe.

here is an article form the journal of american medical assoc. that concludes in 2005 "Anesthesia-assisted detoxification should have no significant role in the treatment of opioid dependence .
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/294/8/903

so right in that article it proves that urd is an "unproven" method of treatment of opiate addiction. all these companys do is try to take advantage of people at possibably their most vonurable time. cause we all know that if it sounds more appealing than anouther way and we are fucking dope sick it just is going to sound that much better, add all other feelings in the mix too. the companys try to use peoples misunderstanding and lack of knowledge to push the right buttons. so the best way to combat issues llike this is to educate urself more if u wanna get clean. and if the ama does not have anything to say about it , then it must not be good.

and having top cardiologists and whatever other x medical professional to assist thru the detox not only does not do anything, but costs more. usually the person knows what to do to get clean , its just doing it. these companys are making millions off of deseperate addicts seeking an easer way out, and when it comes down to it theres just no easer way out, and as duckfeet says, "THERES NO FREE LUNCH"....

Chiago, sorry to hear about ur experence with these sharks. this is what they do, jipp people. i feel so bad when i hear someone who went to one of these places cause someone reccomended they do and all that hope crashes cause of some big titted blond on the other end of the phone line writing a check that no fucking body can cash......

[tptptp]

Like I've said before thios is just a huge waste of money and like most places their success rates are a flat out lie and they know it. Super selective way to do it at best. Bt when you pay 9-15k for it the lies are a great deal worse.

Seen many people write about having it done and none that liked it.


I'm going to have a good deal of information about treatment on my site and anesthesia assisted detox is something I'm warning people about. Never seen anyone happy.
This is why the internet is so great....you can easily find lots of reviews of this anesthesia assisted detox online and none are good.

It's just white collar crime in my opinion.

When billi created this forum this was still somewhat of a new treatment....now it's pretty much exposed.
Even if your filthy rich it's a waste of money. Not too many sites out there reporting much on this, but I definitely plan to.

If I was willing to part with that kind of money, and most importantly, if I really wanted to quit, I think Weismans is a great option.

I've never read of a SINGLE person who was happy with this method, many even saying it was worse than regular WD & I've read many reviews....they jsut wake up in a super sick precipated WD with naloxone in them so they can't get high for a short while. Does nothing for the mental side of the WD and after going through a precipated WD who wouldn't run back to using ASAP

Some doctor a while back (not this company) killed a bunch of people doing an anesthesia assisted detox.

I don't imagine just because you're put to sleep than an even more extreme (precipated) WD is healthy at ALL. Doesn't this place claim like a 67% success rate or something? I'm sure most places lie about that, but when you pay $9-15k for it, that goes beyond a lie into outright fraud. Anyone doing AAD is shady IMO, gonna have write ups on it on my site, already done some of it prior to this. If billi was still active here he'd probably would have already removed this forum area completely.

[EleusisII]

It doesn't make sense just to look at their successrate. You gotta see compare their successrate to other treatments.

And I guess the reviews you read, depend on where you look for them. Did you really look? Opiophile surely isn't the place to look for them, or any other board for that matter, where disappointed junkies can blow off some steam. I'd be pissed too, if I spent 15.000 dollars and it didn't work.
Try contacting Weismans, I'm sure they have their share of positive reviews too.

It's a false assumption, that just because it doesn't work for me, it won't work for anybody. It seems like an option though, for those that are scared to death of WD's. Kickers that never make it past the third day.

There are a lot of dubious treatments out there: Ibogaine is a good example, there's at least one death attributed to it. If you have healthproblems that you might not be aware of, kicking the habit can be dangerous.

[mikells43]

chi- heres proof ur doc who did ur detox is neglectful http://www.ocregister.com/news/bernstein-detox-rapid-1841693-pain-waismann

Study does not support use of anesthesia as heroin withdrawal method
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=29619 (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=29619)

heres a link that shows the public relations company that was hired to help the busness of rapid detox
http://www.formulapr.com/3-dynamic_reactions/case_studies/waismann.html

heres a link of a story that an anest doc converted a basement of a rented house into a rapid detox clinic. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/specials/dentists/243232_solomon27.asp

http://www.atwatchdog.org/opinion_aurod.html

http://www.doctordeluca.com/Documents/UROD_MDs_License.htm

http://www.redfernclinic.com/c/2006/02/rapid-detox-trial-shows-no-long-term.php4


just some more reads but be sure to read the first one u might have a shot at getting them for what they did to u.

[tptptp]

It doesn't make sense just to look at their successrate. You gotta see compare their successrate to other treatments.

And I guess the reviews you read, depend on where you look for them. Did you really look? Opiophile surely isn't the place to look for them, or any other board for that matter, where disappointed junkies can blow off some steam. I'd be pissed too, if I spent 15.000 dollars and it didn't work.
Try contacting Weismans, I'm sure they have their share of positive reviews too.

It's a false assumption, that just because it doesn't work for me, it won't work for anybody. It seems like an option though, for those that are scared to death of WD's. Kickers that never make it past the third day.

There are a lot of dubious treatments out there: Ibogaine is a good example, there's at least one death attributed to it. If you have healthproblems that you might not be aware of, kicking the habit can be dangerous.

OK, spend $15k on the treatment if you want. Anyone who has any faith in my intelligence and the tons of reviews on the net with yet to find one positive please don't waste thousands of dollars on this.

You're saying I should do more research on it (which I actually have) yet you're saying it's probably a good method I guess based on nothing, because no independent reviews or research that I've ever found says anything good about it. That's why I was quoting you, maybe you had something that showed differently. All companies have good reviews on themselves every podunk restaurant created some company nd gave themself an award on their own food. Infomercials are full of people with good reviews too....

Like I said, mostly if not always people wake up in extreme WD a PRECIPATED wd which is even worse and has greater chance of going back in. I'm sure they have great reviews. I never said it didn't work for me or just one other person....I've seen many people go in and out (and tons of people try to talk tyhem out of it & come out with the same horror story).

ANY method out there right now that claims it has a 67% success rate is a flat out lie....Long term rates for getting clean after a rehab/detox is around 2-2.5% in the US and thats AFTER a regular detox & rehab. Why in the world would this method, which many people believe feels worse than a regular WD (since it precipated) have a 67% success rate or even a 10% success rate comapred to others who kicked and likely had mental support TOO, which this doesn't even offer.

I can't let anyone say this is a good way to spend the money, even if they were rich...the last thread we were discussing this expired. I've done my research, this is just white collar crime. If you believe otherwise, go for it. But I can't see someone say this is a good way to spend the $. This is usually something that they pay off forever or that the family all uses savings on and then when they relapse instantly wow talk about a huge blow to their mental state and the guilt they feel. I'm always urging people to never even think about this "treatment"

[EleusisII]

Mikells: Don't jump to your guns...
I don't know if there are some political reasons why you don't like this treatment, you being a militant bupe-proponent and all, but let's be fair here, and establish the fact, that the doctor hasn't been negligent. According to the article you linked to, he has been accused of negligence. For fairness sake, there's still a big difference between being accused or investigated for something, and being guilty of it.

The study you linked to, just shows us, what I suspect that everybody knows allready. That kicking is hard, and that the relapse rate is high.
(Neither the bupe-treatment or the anathesia-treatement was more effective than regular, good ol' kicking with clonidine)

I still think, that if you're really ready to quit (and have a very well padded wallet), ultra rapid detox might work for you, just like bupe might work. It's no miracle cure, and it's an expensive shot, sure, but it might aid those who are terrified of WD's.

And what, exactly has a shady doc, who converted a rented house into a detox clinic, have to do with this thread? There are shady docs everywhere, and lot's of people are making a quick buck out of rehabs.

[mikells43]

Mikells: Don't jump to your guns...
I don't know if there are some political reasons why you don't like this treatment, you being a militant bupe-proponent and all, but let's be fair here, and establish the fact, that the doctor hasn't been negligent. According to the article you linked to, he has been accused of negligence. For fairness sake, there's still a big difference between being accused or investigated for something, and being guilty of it.

The study you linked to, just shows us, what I suspect that everybody knows allready. That kicking is hard, and that the relapse rate is high.
(Neither the bupe-treatment or the anathesia-treatement was more effective than regular, good ol' kicking with clonidine)

I still think, that if you're really ready to quit (and have a very well padded wallet), ultra rapid detox might work for you, just like bupe might work. It's no miracle cure, and it's an expensive shot, sure, but it might aid those who are terrified of WD's.

And what, exactly has a shady doc, who converted a rented house into a detox clinic, have to do with this thread? There are shady docs everywhere, and lot's of people are making a quick buck out of rehabs.


lol, i ment by the doc putting the rehab in the house that these places are popping up everywhere, and some of them are not very legit. theres even places that now offer you "at home bupe detox" where u fly there, they give u the bupe and other meds, u fly back and its all over and done in 4 weeks so they say. there was a lady on naabt that paid 36,000 for a sub induction and 8 days of babysitting. anouther paid 12,000 for 4 weeks of bupe after that they were left in w/d of course after the bupe wore off. duckfeet paid 5000 to medtox in palm beach fl for a methadone detox with oxys. these places are popping up everywhere that have people trained on how to talk to people that are distressed and make them think the impossible. but ur right everyone has their own period when they can and will succeed at quitting.

but im not saying that this might work for someone, if u feel its a solution for u go ahead and do it. it will work for some. for some it wolnt. just like anything. theres nothing out there 100% foolproof. the way im recovering has a below 5% recovery rate, the facts of the disease of addiction are powerful. every person has their own way of doing something, prehaps it might work, prehaps. if u are one to "defy the odds" then u might work well with urd. i kno i wouldnt.

[Levity]

First... Sounds like Chicago got fucked with his pants on. I'm sorry bro. I wish there was something I could do.

Second... All these "medical" detoxes, including rapid detox, bupe, or methadone are only one half of addiction treatment. Remember people, not only is your body addicted, so is your mind. No amount of detoxing and not even a ton of methadone will help you treat your mental addiction.

Third... Look up all the scientific literature you want, and it will show that no matter what the treatment, the recovery rate is significantly higher when it includes a licensed counselor, and that number gets even higher when the counselor specializes in drug and addictions counseling.

Four... If you're going to get any kind of treatment to try to stop using, try to find a facility with a fully licensed drug and addictions counselor on staff. If you can’t find that, try to find an outside counselor to help you. Failing that, join Narcotics Anonymous. Every piece of literature shows that when trying to break an addiction, talking to someone may be the single most important variable that affects your success.

[SpecialGuy69]

The impression I get about Rapid Detox is that they fly you to another city (where you can't score) precipitate w/d's, you wake up in the middle of it, miserable, but its too late to do anything about it, the doctor rolls out, and you HAVE to tough it out for the rest of the w/d because you are hundreds of miles from home with no connects!

ALTHOUGH... If it was $500 instead of $16k, I'd give it a shot.

[Chicago]

@Mikelles thanks for the post on the doctor. Good 'Ol Dr.Berstein.
I will contact that paper with my story watch...more on Dr.B.
Ship me out str8 from the i.c.u. to a hotel not cking me out besides putting 5 bags of saline soulution.
Claire do we need to bash Waismann, I do not think so, JUST MAKE THINGS RIGHT.

[eerased]

I think (after reading last night) it's a HUGE rip off. I don't understand why you would want to pay that kind of money to be sick anyway! It doesn't sound to me like the worse is over after the detox if anything it sound like it may be harder doing it this way. Not only are you STILL in w/d after/during the procedure but now you are out all that freakin money they STEAL from you by offering false info.

It's disgusting to think that many people have spent there families saving, there savings, takin loans all just to be in the same boat or worse after. These people should be ashamed of themselves for this. When I first came into this thread I came in with a rather open mind but after going through all the info in the posts then reading all the info in the links that were provided, If I was a millionaire I wouldn't waste my money on this scam!

TP, I'm glad you will offer information on SDT on this subject and warn folks. Hopefully you will be able to save families not only the money but the false hope. I cant imagine the guilt one must feel after going through this only to relapse quick.

I would be willing to bet that Claire wont soon be back to this thread.
Chi, Again I'm sorry you and your family were taken by these folks. I wouldn't expect them to do anything to make it up to you and short of refunding your money to you nothing would make it right because putting yourself through that again simply wouldn't be worth it.

[SpecialGuy69]

Chi- do you think the reason they gave you poor treatment and service was because you negotiated a lower price with them and so they cut corners?

[Suboxstitute]

[/URL][URL="http://www.doctordeluca.com/Documents/UROD_MDs_License.htm"]http://www.doctordeluca.com/Document...Ds_License.htm (http://www.doctordeluca.com/Documents/UROD_MDs_License.htm)

Mikells that Dr. DeLuca site was pretty interesting... although he could use a new web designer (busy busy busy graphics and stuff). But the stuff on pain mgmt doctors, etc. was an interesting read; haven't gotten thru the site yet just a first look.


Chronic Pain - Politically Incorrect Disease (http://doctordeluca.com/wordpress/index.php/archive/cp-x-pc/287/) was the article I liked.

[Waismann]

Dear Chi,

I cannot discuss your specific case in public due to confidentiality laws, but I know deep in your heart you know you were treated with dignity respect and offer the best medicine had to offer in 1999 for this disease....If you really had such a hard time and did not feel well, we have never turned our phones off and would have helped you until you felt better. The reasons why you used as soon as you got home , you are the only one that knows....If the money you paid was so much for hospital , board certified anesthesiologist ,the detoxification itself plus all the suffering you went through, wouldn't that be enough to make you stay clean?
Chi, please understand.....We have limos pick up ALL our patients, we have never upgraded anybody on any flights. What we offer today is different then we did 10 years ago because medicine evolve. Any medical procedure would be different in a decade.
We are one of the only centers in this country that treats drug dependent patients with respect and dignity.I personally believe that treating patients like humane beings and not "drug addicts" would open doors for society to change the views of this disease and allow medicine to help where in the last 40 years this disease has been treated by other patients and police departments....
If you believe you should share your story with the media, this is a right you have....
Different doctors all over the world has been doing this procedure with no success, we have been here for 10 years because of the success of our patients...
The state of California is one of the toughest states to regulate medical procedures. The major difficulty we have is convincing the medical professionals that drug dependent patients don't have to suffer in order to get well...Society still view them as outcast as 3rd class citizens...We view them as patients that deserve the best we have to offer like any other patient with any other disease.
If you feel that is fair of you to convince other drug dependent patients that our medical help is not good , I don't understand but I have to accept.

[nick]

Firstly Dr Waismann,thank you for taking the time to be here with us.

A couple of points,I can understand why you can't discuss Chi's treatment here,but it might be wise to discuss it with him in person.
I'd have thought feedback-particularly negative feedback would be of great value in offering an improved service.

I for one,would be very interested to see your treatment statistics and the methodology used to collect them.

[I'm-Nod-Addicted]

If the money you paid was so much for hospital , board certified anesthesiologist ,the detoxification itself plus all the suffering you went through, wouldn't that be enough to make you stay clean?



There ya go....thanks for revealing your true colors! :rolleyes:

[tptptp]

There ya go....thanks for revealing your true colors! :rolleyes:


^^^^^lol yeah I also like the comment about being a cardiologist and not needing to go through a heart attack to treat one...no but you'd need to go through one to see what it feels like and see if your "treatment" really works well or if it jsut looks good on paper.

Yeah Dr.Deluca is a good site, web design does suck though.

Eerased glad that you will be glad to see it =)
Hey guys, according to Waismann you can just give me $10k cause if that's not enough to get you clean...then what is? Maybe they don't realize they're dealing with addiction...or more likely don't care.

I know how they gather their success data = very selectively.

I definitely plan to spread more info about this whole thing soon enough.

[eerased]

Basically what she says there Chi, Go Ahead say what you want call who you want do what you want.. She dont give a shit!! It wont matter to them what you say here I'm sure allot of there patients wont be surfing our lil neck of the woods anytime soon!!!

What a joke! I'm glad to know that there is someway however that woman has to make herself feel better at least she "thinks" she is doing a good thing and I'm sure the house she lives in and the car she drives makes her feel even better about the service they provide.

It's sad again to surf different boards and see the big waismann banner across the top. I know when I was kickin methadone I would have gave my right leg to goto that program. However I didnt have the GREAT fortune at that time to have this board where you can get true opy knowledge, but I tell ya I tried more than once to enter a rapid detox..

[tptptp]

I'm sure they justify it to themselves many ways, that is if there are any who care at all. Ripping off a drug user or their family is OK, they probably would have just spent it on drugs anyways!

If anyone wants I'll lock you in a room for a week for 7 grand with a nurse to do check-ups, that should be enough to make you quit. It'll likely be less painful than the rapid detox too.

Competition is in town!

This is something I was really looking forward to exposing....I had figured this forum was basically dead now though. This will get spread far and wide & I will have the balls to back it up, because I know it's the truth.

[mikells43]

as levity said, talking to someone is key to getting clean. as they say in one of the progs out there, the value of one addict helping anouther addict is without parrell. and i beleive that. i can't get clean on my own.

[Chicago]

DEAR CLAIRE,

You only offer for all to be picked up by a limo ONLY from the airport, but when leaving the hotel you have to pay for your own transpertaion, I was even told I had to take a cab, but since I had explained over & over when calling you guys from my hotel I WAS NOT FEELING RIGHT & AM VERY SICK & WEAK, SO BY CALLING 10 TIMES THAT DAY THE FEMALE WHO ANSWERS THE PHONE FINALLY WAS APPOLAGIZING(SP) SO FREE OF CHARGED SHE HAD CALLED A LIMO & SAID SHE WAS GONNA PAY OUT OF HER POCKET.
2ND. You guys let me go straight from the i.c.u. 19hrs after the procedure was preformed RIGHT BACK TO THE HOTEL ROOM, ALL KNOWING YOU ARE SENDING A YOU GUY BACK TO THE HOTEL ALONE & SICK, THEN TELLING ME TO SPEND MY OUT OF POCKET MONEY TO COME BACK THE NEXT DAY TO SEE ME Dr.Berstein in the courtyard for 5-10mins tops.
Dr.Berstein just said to me you will be ok & rx'd me 2 catapress patches 1 on each arm, why when you told me I am 100% opiate free, then why would I need that if clean, b/c when we 1rst spoke on the phone you said unlike any other rapid detox,when I am done I will need no meds at all besides the NALTREXONE.
WHY DID YOU DISCHARGE A PATIENT LESS THEN 24HRS FROM THE I.C.U. RIGHT AFTER RAPID DETOX, ALSO REMEMBER WHEN COMMING IN WEAK AND BARLEY WALKING BACK THE NEXT DAY TO TALK TO DR.BERSTEIN, TOOK MY BLOOD PRESURE WHICH WAS AROUND 90/70 & STILL GIVING ME CLONODINE, WHICH DROPPED MY BP & MADE ME MORE WEAK.
DO YOU NOT THINK YOU SHOULD HAVE KEPT ME LONGER & AFTER THE RAPID DETOX JUST LIKE YOU STATED BRING ME BACK ON THE FLOOR TO CK IF I WAS REALLY READY TO GO:mad:, BUT NO YOU DID NOT & DISCHARGED ME 11a.m. Thursday morning, when you guys started my rapid detox at 3/4p.m. on wednesday.
I NO IF I WAS BROUGHT BACK ON THE FLOOR GETTING MY HEATH BEING BROUGHT BACK UP TO SPEED AS YOU STATED, I NO MY LIFE WOULD BE DIFFERENT. YOU GUYS JUST THREW ME OUT ALONE & SCARED BACK TO A HOTEL ROOM W/OUT ANY FAMILY NOT BOTHERING TO SEE IF I WAS OK TO GO YET?
I WASN'T READY TO GO & VERY ILL STILL.
WHEN COMMING BACK TO SEE DR.BERSTEIN NEXT DAY I TOLD HIM HOW I FELT & WAS TOLD TO GO BACK TO THE HOTEL & LAY IN BED, WHILE YOU MENTIONED I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BROUGHT BACK ON THE FLOR TO SEE IF IT WAS OK TO DISCHARGE ME, YOU GUYS DID NOT CARE.
SO I DID AS YOU SAY & CALLED THE WAISMANN INSTITUTE & TOLD THEM WHAT & HOW I WAS FEELING, NEVER DID THEY SAY COME BACK TO THE HOSPITAL & LETS MAKE SURE YOU ARE OK? IF YOU DID CARE YOU WOULD SAY COME BACK TO THE HOSPITAL TO MAKE SURE YOU ALRIGHT, BUT DIDN'T,WHY?
I ONLY USED WHEN I GOT BACK IS B/C I WAS IN SUCH BAD SHAPE IT IS UNDESCRIBABLE. SO IF I WAS KEPT LONGER & WAS BROUGHT BACK UP & STAYED TILL IT WAS OK.
I NO MY LIFE WOULD BE DIFFERENT TO THIS DAY. I DID NOT WANT TO USE BUT YOU GUYS DROPPED ME STR8 FROM I.C.U. TO HOTEL WHICH IS WHAT KILLED A YOUNG MAN LIKE ME, ALONE IN A DIFFERENT STATE NOT HYDRATED SICK , WEAK & CALLING YOU GUYS ATLEAST 10-15 TIMES THAT DAY TELLING YOU I WAS NOT FEELING RIGHT & SOMETHING WAS WRONG W/ME.IF CARED WHY DIDN'T YOU KEEP ME LONGER OR TELL ME TO COME BACK. BP 90 OVER 70 IS TO LOW, YOU SHOULD NO THAT & THEN THE DR. THEN RX'D ME MORE CATAPRESS WHICH LOWERS MY BP EVEN MORE. WHICH I COULD HAVE WENT INTO A COMA & KILLED ME, SO YOU DID NOT CARE.
YOU CARED ALOT UNTILL YOU GOT MY FAMILYS LIFE SAVINGS, :mad:BUT WHEN YOU WERE NOT GETTING ANY MORE MONEY YOU STOPPED CARING? WHY?
P.S. YOU DID TRY TO UPGRADE MY FLIGHT BUT MY FLIGHT DID HAVE 1RST CLASS.
SO WHY DI YOU GUYS GET ME A LIMO TO GO HOME, AFTER COMPLAING I WAS NOT FEELING RIGHT.
ONLY TIME YOU GET LIMO'S IS WHEN YOU PICK UP PEOPLE FROM THE AIRPORT, BUT FIND YOUR OWN WAY HOME. YOU ALSO HAVE TO PAY FOR YOUR OWN HOTEL & AIRFARE, TO LET YOU NO YOU ALSO MESSED UP MY AIRLINE TICKECT B/C WHEN I GOT TO THE AIRPORT THEY SAID YOU ARE NOT IN THE SYSTEM, I WAS LIKE I ALREADY PAID HERE IS MY CODE & WHO TOOK CARE OF IT"WAISMANN" THE AIRPORT HAD TO CALL YOU GUYS TO STR8 EVERYTHING OUT B/C YOU DID AN ELECTRONIC TICKET & SINCE YOU GUYS MESSED UP ON THE FLIGHT THERE, I HAPPEN TO MISS 2 FLIGHTS, THEN WHEN I FINALLY BOARDED IT WAS A 5HR DELAY & HAD TO GO TO VEGAS FOR AN OVERLAY FOR 2HRS.
I HAVE THE PAPER WORK TO SHOW YOU WHEN MY FLIGHT WAS & WHAT TIME I DID BOARD.
ONLY WAY FOR ME TO GET ON THAT PLANE WAS B/C THEY HAD TO CALL THE WAISMANN INST, 5HRS DELAYED & A LAYOVER, SO WHEN I FINALLY ARRIVED I WAS SO SICK, B/C HAD ONLY DID ENUFF OPIATES AS YOU RECCOMENDED TILL I GOT TO CALI THEN THERE WOULD BE SOME WAITING FOR ME AT THE PHARMACIA , WHICH THAT EVEN CAME OUT OF MY POCKET COSTING ME OVER 100 BUKS FROM WALGREENS.
I HAVE TO TAKE BREAK/

Dear Chi,

I cannot discuss your specific case in public due to confidentiality laws, but I know deep in your heart you know you were treated with dignity respect and offer the best medicine had to offer in 1999 for this disease....If you really had such a hard time and did not feel well, we have never turned our phones off and would have helped you until you felt better. The reasons why you used as soon as you got home , you are the only one that knows....If the money you paid was so much for hospital , board certified anesthesiologist ,the detoxification itself plus all the suffering you went through, wouldn't that be enough to make you stay clean?
Chi, please understand.....We have limos pick up ALL our patients, we have never upgraded anybody on any flights. What we offer today is different then we did 10 years ago because medicine evolve. Any medical procedure would be different in a decade.
We are one of the only centers in this country that treats drug dependent patients with respect and dignity.I personally believe that treating patients like humane beings and not "drug addicts" would open doors for society to change the views of this disease and allow medicine to help where in the last 40 years this disease has been treated by other patients and police departments....
If you believe you should share your story with the media, this is a right you have....
Different doctors all over the world has been doing this procedure with no success, we have been here for 10 years because of the success of our patients...
The state of California is one of the toughest states to regulate medical procedures. The major difficulty we have is convincing the medical professionals that drug dependent patients don't have to suffer in order to get well...Society still view them as outcast as 3rd class citizens...We view them as patients that deserve the best we have to offer like any other patient with any other disease.
If you feel that is fair of you to convince other drug dependent patients that our medical help is not good , I don't understand but I have to accept.

[Suboxstitute]

Claire said


We are one of the only centers in this country that treats drug dependent patients with respect and dignity


Yes, many of us have been treated like shit but others of us have been treated decently and at much lower cost.

Take me. (not thru URD, just take my experience).

I am not thrilled to be on bupe and the clinic where I go pretty much knows it. I refused their "mandatory" intensive outpatient treatment (and they let me stay in). They have a decently compassionate doc and counselors.

Toward the end of the year, when my AODA benefits ran out, the doc was kind enough to give me refills so I didn't have to pay out of pocket to see him monthly. And get this - they've NEVER pee tested me! (It was obvious I was in W/D when I first came in, and the feeling is we're all adults and should we choose to use while on bupe, it's our loss).

So....more than a few of these "non URD" guys are decent folk.

Waismann is not "one of the only centers" to treat people like humans. I just don't like over-reaching statements like that. Sorry.

[nick]

Hell,I get christmas and birthday cards from my doc and my treatment is free.

[Chicago]

It could be, b/c i had 3 quates highest was a little over 13grand, then finally after faxing & then sending me the 3rd packet, which was the lowest price, there is a good chance that is why they got rid of me asap, so they can squeeze another paitent in:mad:.
From what I was told by the nurses is that they do 2 people a day, so they told me to bounce & some other poor guy took my place:(.
But Claire why was I sent home from the i.c.u. 20hrs after they started my procedure.
When you guys knew i was alone & very unstable to leave on my own. Just threw me in a cab back to the hotel which I even had to pay for.
So I paid for the hotel out of my pocket from tuesday night when arrived, then still paying for hotel stay when I was not even at the hotel, I was at the hospital.
They work w/the hotels b/c they reccomend the hotels to you ranging from 60-300buks a night, I had no choice but to go to the cheapest hotel. Then had to pay for all my cab fair to the hospital back to the hotel then back to the hospital then again back to the hotel.
When she said we provide every one w/a limo, NOT A LIMO BUT A LINCOLN TOWN CAR, WHICH I BARLEY FIT IN THE BACK,SICK AS I WAS B/C THEY MADE A MISTAKE ON MY TICKETS AT THE AIRPORT, I HAD TO LIE DOWN, that is only when you arrive at the airport to take you to the pharmaci then to your hotel, thats all. Every thing else is out of your pocket. I even paid over 300buks after my rapid detox to get a bottle of 50mg naltrexone, and patches,temezapam & levsin, so just meds cost alone about 500buks.
Claire is it not clear that you guys had rushed me out and made a mistake on me?
I went the last month of '99, so lets say this 7 yrs 8 yrs TOPS. NOT 10YRS.
WE HAVE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ON HEAR & THOUSANDS OF LURKERS AS WELL, DON'T YOU THINK WE SHOULD TALK ATLEAST. I CAN GIVE YOU MY PAPER I.D.# AS WELL AS PAPERS FROM THE HOSPITAL, 2 PROOVE THAT WAISMANN INSTITUTE DID THIS TO ME.
IT WOULD LOOK ALOT BETTER TO THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD CLAIRE B/C EVERY ONE HAS FREINDS WHO TELL ANOTHER WHO TELL ANOTHER. ALOT OF PEOPLE.
MOST INPORTANT IF IT WAS DONE THE WAY YOU DESCRIBED I NO FOR A FACT MY LIFE COULD BE DIFFERENT.
BEING ALONE IN A HOTEL,SICK CAN'T EVEN GET TO THE BATHROOM, NOT EATING IS THAT NOT TELL YOU THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG,I ALSO DID CALL WAISMANN 10 TIMES IN 1 DAY TRYING TO EXPLAIN, WHAT DID YOU GUYS DO AFTER I TOLD YOU WHAT IS GOING ON & HOW I AM FEELING.
NOTHING. NOTHING AT ALL. SO TELL ME WHY DID YOU SAY WE DO NOT TURN OUR PHONES OFF WHEN I CALLED AND YOU DID NOTHING TO HELP ME WHEN I WAS IN VERY BAD CONDITION.
2ND DAY IN CHICAGO I WENT TO A ADDICTION MEDICAL SPECIALIST & WAS EVEN TOLD THAT I WAS DONE WRONG & SHOULD HAVE HAD IT DONE HERE IN CHICAGO FOR HALF THE PRICE, AND WOULD NOT BE LET OUT TILL I WAS READY.:confused:

Chi- do you think the reason they gave you poor treatment and service was because you negotiated a lower price with them and so they cut corners?

[Chicago]

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? WAISMANN DID THIS FOR ME?:(:o
[quote=Waismann;216605]Rapid detox is medicine and is as good as the dosctors that practice. This is not the way it should be done, and is absurd to keep a patient aunder anesthesia for so long..

[Levity]

Dear Chi,

I cannot discuss your specific case in public due to confidentiality laws, but I know deep in your heart you know you were treated with dignity respect and offer the best medicine had to offer in 1999 for this disease....If you really had such a hard time and did not feel well, we have never turned our phones off and would have helped you until you felt better. The reasons why you used as soon as you got home , you are the only one that knows....If the money you paid was so much for hospital , board certified anesthesiologist ,the detoxification itself plus all the suffering you went through, wouldn't that be enough to make you stay clean?
Chi, please understand.....We have limos pick up ALL our patients, we have never upgraded anybody on any flights. What we offer today is different then we did 10 years ago because medicine evolve. Any medical procedure would be different in a decade.
We are one of the only centers in this country that treats drug dependent patients with respect and dignity.I personally believe that treating patients like humane beings and not "drug addicts" would open doors for society to change the views of this disease and allow medicine to help where in the last 40 years this disease has been treated by other patients and police departments....
If you believe you should share your story with the media, this is a right you have....
Different doctors all over the world has been doing this procedure with no success, we have been here for 10 years because of the success of our patients...
The state of California is one of the toughest states to regulate medical procedures. The major difficulty we have is convincing the medical professionals that drug dependent patients don't have to suffer in order to get well...Society still view them as outcast as 3rd class citizens...We view them as patients that deserve the best we have to offer like any other patient with any other disease.
If you feel that is fair of you to convince other drug dependent patients that our medical help is not good , I don't understand but I have to accept.

For a "Doctor" arguing in defense of yourself and your practice, I would think that you would proofread you postings, or at least run it through Microsoft Word to catch the most glaring of errors. Your writing is barely that of a high school graduate pressed for time, much less someone with a medical degree who is a pioneer in rapid, anesthesia-assisted detox defending his life’s work.

Furthermore, after doing some research using Google Scholar, LexisNexis, PsychInfo and other scholarly, academic search engines, I found no published reports detailing the “success” of the Waismann Method or any other rapid, anesthesia-assisted detox. Actually, I found nothing except an article published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, saying that most “rapid opiate detox clinics and doctors grossly overstate their safety, efficacy, and recidivism rates” (JAMA, Sept 2005).

Furthermore, I found no articles published by a Dr. Waismann – ever. Plus, the “Doctors” listed on the Waismann Method’s websites (Lowenstein and Bernstein) as well as the “counselors” (Livingston and Brenner) remain curiously unpublished. Hell, I was published as an undergraduate and my abstract is easily found using my last name, paper title, or even a semi-specific search using any of the three academic search engines I listed.

With the exception of news articles linked on opiates.com and supposedly ran in second- and third-tier magazines (and tabloids, of course), there is no mention of the Waismann Method in scholarly, academic, professional, or mainstream media. These “news articles” were even written by some heretofore unnamed person, despite the way the website makes it seems the author is affiliated with the clinic.

I would love t know where your team’s degrees are from and where their residencies were completed. Furthermore, if you boast such an outstanding recovery record, can you please tell me where the results have been published in a peer-reviewed journal? Assuming they haven’t been published (and I’m certain they have not) could you post such a paper here? Or, failing that, just discuss with us your selection criteria and results, especially your sample size and statistical methods used to determine you’re “the best method of recovery, in comparison to traditional forms.

Perhaps you could even proofread that post?

[tptptp]

Chicago...feel free to post if you want but honestly I think you're jsut wasting your time. It was awesome that you let others know....we n eed more and more people to share their experience with this, but I don't see these people doing anything for you.

I don't think for a second they genuinely care about anything but money nor do I believe that they think this procedure works as they say.

[mollywopped]

Like I've said before thios is just a huge waste of money and like most places their success rates are a flat out lie and they know it. Super selective way to do it at best. Bt when you pay 9-15k for it the lies are a great deal worse.

Seen many people write about having it done and none that liked it.


I'm going to have a good deal of information about treatment on my site and anesthesia assisted detox is something I'm warning people about. Never seen anyone happy.
This is why the internet is so great....you can easily find lots of reviews of this anesthesia assisted detox online and none are good.

It's just white collar crime in my opinion.

When billi created this forum this was still somewhat of a new treatment....now it's pretty much exposed.
Even if your filthy rich it's a waste of money. Not too many sites out there reporting much on this, but I definitely plan to.



I've never read of a SINGLE person who was happy with this method, many even saying it was worse than regular WD & I've read many reviews....they jsut wake up in a super sick precipated WD with naloxone in them so they can't get high for a short while. Does nothing for the mental side of the WD and after going through a precipated WD who wouldn't run back to using ASAP

Some doctor a while back (not this company) killed a bunch of people doing an anesthesia assisted detox.

I don't imagine just because you're put to sleep than an even more extreme (precipated) WD is healthy at ALL. Doesn't this place claim like a 67% success rate or something? I'm sure most places lie about that, but when you pay $9-15k for it, that goes beyond a lie into outright fraud. Anyone doing AAD is shady IMO, gonna have write ups on it on my site, already done some of it prior to this. If billi was still active here he'd probably would have already removed this forum area completely.


I did a similar detox (read either my post towards the begining of this thread or the new thread I started), I was not under full anesthsia, just really sedated. They gave me narcan all day and when I left at the end of the day I felt fine. I did relapse, but that had nothing to do with the procedure. I relapsed because I did not want to get clean, I just did it cuz my family wanted me clean and you know how it is, it's easier to clean up for a few months a get the heat off.

My best friend went through it also, at the same place w/ the same doc I did and he is still clean to this day, 2 years later.

I am not saying anything about Chicago here or his experience. It does sound to me like he got fucked. But I just wanted to say that there are people who went through this and came out OK.

BTW, the success rates they put up are bogus. The place I went to says they have like a 90 something % rate of getting people off of opiates. Well no shit, you pump them full of narcan all day, I just wonder why it is not 100%. But it is a business and they are trying to attract customers. Whether that is right or not is up to you. I just wanted to speak up and say that not everybody that has done some type of rapid detox died or hated it.

[Chicago]

mollywopped where did you go?

[JayTrizzle]

For a "Doctor" arguing in defense of yourself and your practice, I would think that you would proofread you postings, or at least run it through Microsoft Word to catch the most glaring of errors.



I was just getting ready to say that, lol. You would think taht 12 years of college would teach you the english language, but apparently not lol.

[Levity]

For a "Doctor" arguing in defense of yourself and your practice, I would think that you would proofread you postings, or at least run it through Microsoft Word to catch the most glaring of errors.



I was just getting ready to say that, lol. You would think taht 12 years of college would teach you the english language, but apparently not lol.


It's all a fucking crock of shit and scam.
End of story.

[JayTrizzle]

Oh, I know. I was just sagreeing, for a "doctor", you know? lol.

[mikells43]

its an easy way out. and for some of us there is no easy way out it takes genuine work and willingness. ur friend that is still clean to this day due to the rapid detox, mabey he was just one of those people who can walk away. not a real textbook addict. i kno some like that, they can just stop and say im done with it and not touch it again. boy i wish it was that easy..

[EleusisII]

Think it might be an option for those who have already tried methadone or bupes... I know with myself, that methadone detox probably wouldn't work for me.
So if you have the mindset that you're ready to call it quits, but you never made it past the third day of WD's... You might make it work.

But there are no easy way outs, of course... Like that article you linked to, I believe the successrate for both bupe's and rapid detox was around 12% after a couple of months.

[Chicago]

You no what if you go on the Waismann site there are knocking Suboxone & say people should go to a urd to get off subs:mad:SCAM
I only think this urd would work for someone who is not a REAL addict like shooting/snorting opiates, more like an old person that had pain & has been opiates for awhile,or a youngster who only has not went higher then vic's.IMO.
FOR THE RESULTS THAT I HAVE READ ABOUT THAT WORKED WAS THESE KINDA ADDICTIONS.

its an easy way out. and for some of us there is no easy way out it takes genuine work and willingness. ur friend that is still clean to this day due to the rapid detox, mabey he was just one of those people who can walk away. not a real textbook addict. i kno some like that, they can just stop and say im done with it and not touch it again. boy i wish it was that easy..

[mikells43]

yea i seen they were knocking suboxone. they knock everything. hell if there up came a magical way to get clean without their bogus money making scam they would knock it too lol. o well life goes on. when are you going to call wisemann and talk to them on the phone chi?

and theres actually 5 people on their patient testomonials that were "codine detoxes". fukin codine never did shit for me, it dind't even help me get unsick, well a lil but never got a feeling from it .

[I'm-Nod-Addicted]

Codeine????

Shit, I'd probably take Codeine if I wanted to detox! :p:p

[nick]

Bottom line is,is it's not pleasant,but you can quickly get dope out of your body............getting it out of your mind is a whole other story.

[tptptp]

Yeah that's another thing that proves they are huge scammers, they knock bupe and 'done of course.

Hell you could pay for 3 years of 'done or probably bupe if you have insurance for what this detox costs. They knock other replacement drugs but promote their crap.

The bottom line is replacement drugs are the BEST option for many addicts in our society. Many are better off on them for a while, if not life. Apparently their anesthesia detox is good for maybe one in ten thousand.

I'll have to tlk to you about this later chicago when I put out more info on it here soon.

Hopefullyyou guys that belong to bluelight or other sites talk about this crap over there. Still many upset people getting ripped.

[tptptp]

By the way they lost moderator status a couple days ago, haven't noticed any abuse of it, but now that we know more about the procedure it was for the best.

Giving someone mod status gives them credibility to some & they don't need to be given any credibility here. At first I thought it would be best if the entire forum was gone but then I realized it's probably best that people have opinions to look over.

It's too bad the old thread died where they bash bupe and 'done and how it has a low rate of getting clean or something then tout a ridiculously high success rate for this procedure.

Lord only knows how bad a precipated WD is on your body, alseep or not.

Well anyone that attempts this procedure after this, I wish them the best, and hopefully they include a brain scan.

What goes around comes around, maybe it'll be a huge malpractice suit.

The more and more we post about this the higher up on the search engine it goes and opio has a good chance of being right up there so people can see feedback when searching for the procedure

[SpecialGuy69]

tp how about bumping that old thread?

[jab]

First, you state the following..

Rapid detox is medicine and is as good as the dosctors that practice. This is not the way it should be done, and is absurd to keep a patient aunder anesthesia for so long..

But wait!!!!

Then you realized he was talking about you and yours!!! So you make a bunch of complete bullshit excuses in 3rd grade grammer..

Followed by the coup de grâce..

If the money you paid was so much for hospital , board certified anesthesiologist ,the detoxification itself plus all the suffering you went through, wouldn't that be enough to make you stay clean?

To summarize..

You and your "procedure" are pathetic and you should be ashamed of yourself.. If you are truly a doctor I think you should turn in your degree, choose a new career, and actually go to school to learn that career this time!

You're excuses and your trite responses and attitude are exactly the reason no one should EVER condisider using your services.. You are a sham, a liar, and a complete con-artist. Frankly, you sicken me!

Chi, I'm sorry you got mixed up in this con, and I urge you to let as many people as you can know about it.. Scream it from a mountain top if you can.. Contact any news outlet of website that is willing to listen.. Hopefully it will save even one person from the misery this obvious charlatan chooses to deliver to people!!

Thank you sir for making us aware of this!

[tptptp]

tp how about bumping that old thread?


http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?p=220190

[pizzaboy]

Wow, I finally read this, it's a fascinating topic. I don't think I could do it though.

Thanks bunches, Chicago, for posting this and answering questions. I can see why it is controversial, and it still doesn't solve the major problem, for me, STAYING clean.

Still, it was fascinating to read.

[EleusisII]

OK... Chi had a bad experience. And it seems like he's not going to get a refund
We have another member who had a good experience with a similar procedure.
TPTP seems to be using this for his own personal crusade (lord knows why)

We've established that URD is as effective (Or noneffective) as bupe-treatment.
It might work for some, it might not for others. Getting clean depends on many factors, and there is no magic bullet.

Any sense in continuing this thread? Thought not...

[Nate]

Would Waismann care to comment on anything said? You would think he would defend the procedure...

[underide]

Eleusis:
as far as i remember chi wasn't even asking for a refund, he was asking for a repeat procedure or at the very least some straight answers, and obviously he got neither,
The fact that tp was 'calling the shots as he saw them' (like you like to refer sometimes), has nothing to do with any 'crusade'.

A lot might depend on whether you want the 'program' to work for you or not, but the point is - these people charge EXTRAORDINARILY high prices for a procedure that they use some made up 'efficiency' numbers to work in their favor.

and who put you in charge anyway??? lol:rolleyes:;)

[EleusisII]

I guess he already responded regarding Chi as much as he could (Patient confidentiality, legal issues)
Mikells posted a link to a interesting study, that showed that URD has the same rate of success as bupe treatment... Check it out, it's earlier in this thread.

[EleusisII]

as far as i remember chi wasn't even asking for a refund, he was asking for a repeat procedure or at the very least some straight answers, and obviously he got neither,

Yeah, but unfortunately, I don't think he's going to get it. Too bad, I feel for the dude. And as for straight answers, thats opening up a whole legal can of worm

The fact that tp was 'calling the shots as he saw them' (like you like to refer sometimes), has nothing to do with any 'crusade'.
He mentioned something about putting a website together, that he's never seen a patient with a positive experience, well we have one here who did pretty well on a similar procedure. I don't know if he's on a crusade or not, but he sure seems hellbent on tarnishing the whole deal.

A lot might depend on whether you want the 'program' to work for you or not, but the point is - these people charge EXTRAORDINARILY high prices for a procedure that they use some made up 'efficiency' numbers to work in their favor.
I believe, and I think you'll agree that it might work for some. It'd be a shame to scare away those it might work for in this thread. Let people do their own research.
As for the high price, it's a free market. And yeah, I'm sure they make a healthy profit. But look at what you're getting: An anasthesiologist, hospital stay (in some cases), follow up with a shrink (in some cases).
Look at what a brief hospital stay will cost you: Big bucks. Frankly, I think that there are some methadone programs that squeeze the lemon even more than these guys (The guy from our board who got charged 12.000 for methadone detox, for example.

All programs come up with some dubious success numbers. It depends on at what point in the treatment the people who are staying are counted.
As I said, it might work for some, if they have the money, of course.
And re: success. After three months the successrate in the study I read was about the same as with bupe. 12%. I believe URD is a great way of getting through the worst of WDs. After that comes the hard part. Don't you agree?

[underide]

Let people do their own research.


that is exactly what needs to be done^^^

You're saying that URD might work for some people, true, but so could cold turkey, and you don't have to pay a year's salary (in some countries) for cold turkey.

The way Claire & Co have described the treatment, it sounds almost flawless, well personal experience of people that have gone through it seems to show otherwise.
Also, there are other URD options apart from Weisman that people can opt for (remember Mollywopped) that you don't have to pay nearly as much and that offers you essentially similar deals, and Mollywopped ended up paying over twice less than Chicago did as far as i can remember.

It is just a scam, what they seem to be doing.
It might work for some, you're right at that, but not nearly at a success rate they seem to be pushing.

People need to make their own decisions, and everyone who posted here is just offering their opinions, alongside Weismans seemingly flawless formula.

[EleusisII]

You're saying that URD might work for some people, true, but so could cold turkey, and you don't have to pay a year's salary (in some countries) for cold turkey.
Indeed... I'd try coldturkey first. And I think, that URD is a good option for people who tried that, and failed miserably. Several times.

The way Claire & Co have described the treatment, it sounds almost flawless, well personal experience of people that have gone through it seems to show otherwise.
And in all fairness, we only have ONE persom here, who've tried the procedure. Something obviously went really wrong, but it's hardly fair to bash URD or Weissman on ONE patients experience. What you agree?
And at least they do the procedure in a controlled environment, unlike the assholes who do a URD in a hotel somewhere. That IMHO makes Weismans one of the more respectable outfits.

It might work for some, you're right at that, but not nearly at a success rate they seem to be pushing.
When do you measure the successrate? One day into the program? A week? A month? It's relative. It's something, that someone who's researching his options should ask them.
And there's a good reason for them to try to present a high successrate. URD successrate after a year is 12%. Let's imagine that this treatment would work for you. Would you give it a go, if you knew how low your chances really are. IMHO I prefer them to present the best successrate possible (Without obvioisly lying, to get those junkies, for whom it might work for at least a glimmer of hope.
Then again, I work in the media, so my morals are pretty corrupt already :)

I still say that Weismans are some of the more reputable ones out there. Compared to shady docs who pull this procedure (which can be dangerous in hotel rooms, or the hippy-ibogaine crowd

Anyways, thank for a good discussion my friend.

Oh yeah, one more thing:

Originally Posted by EleusisII http://forum.opiophile.org/images/gnome/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?p=220375#post220375)
Let people do their own research.
that is exactly what needs to be done^^^Might I add: And not be scared away by one former patient, who had a really bad experience, and people who are convinced that it's a scam...

[tptptp]

Don't mind Eleusis2 he can't help it. Seems to be a trend in all areas. Despite Chicagos firsthand experience all the independent research and tons of negative reviews online (way beyond the normal negative to positive ratio) and the fact that there's a "67%" absitnence rate after one year or so they claim to rip people off despite the fact that he says bupe is as effective as it.

I don't think he ever has anything to back him up. Let's see who to trust the 1000 nbeagtive reviews to 1 positive, that wasn't even technically aad.

Who's advice shall we take, chicago who had the procedure done or what some guy "thinks" despite all evidence otherwise. Who obviously doesn't ever look at it.

Damn right I'm not going to let people spend their savings on a falsely advertised success rate get ripped off. I've ALREADY written a partial report on it and am going to follow up so more people don't get ripped off. On a website I already own. If you didn't selectively read you'd know that.

[tptptp]

Oh yeah, one more thing:



Might I add: And not be scared away by one former patient, who had a really bad experience, and people who are convinced that it's a scam...

Good idea, then you could learn what the rest of us already know.

According to you all the negative reviews online don't count and neither does independent research. I wonder then where you saw bupe was the same as anesthesia assisted detox????

Waismann claims 67% success rate for one year. So promising someone a ridiculous success rate making it seems like the majority do fine and charging them a fortune isn't a rip off? You think people shouldn't speak against this!?! Hah!

12% eh? Show me one independent research report that says that. Everything you say is wrong, unresearched, & hypocritical as hell.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about. You may want to get a clue before you judge what I say. I've already done the research on this. I jsut bumped an old thread about Wiasmann, maybe you should read all the deceit in it.

Getting off opiates is the easy part. STAYING off is the hard part. Most people are still in some, if not worse wd's when they wake up too, so this doesn't even get most over the first hump.

[eerased]

Best thing that could happen is all of the research we do on this get up and posted at
stopdrugprohibition.com that way ppl can be properly informed to the positives as well as the negatives of the treatment but now unless you dig you search for info on the matter and weismann's site pops and it's in all respect total bullshit! This may work for someone somewhere but the point is both sides of the coin need to be shown in order to let an adult make an educated guess before they go and blow thousands of dollars only to come out and have to sell there sole to support there habit.
I dunno I wouldnt do it and sometimes I'm desperate to be clean, I just no something that you put every breathing moment into for years and years and years cannot be flushed out in 48 hours.

[Raz]

My 2 cents worth is this detox dont take away your desire for opis. The clinic i know about in London is the Stapleford clinic, it used to cost £2,000 for a 5day anathesia detox. Where your under for 5days. I know 3 people who've had it and they all went back to gear.
When you wake up,5th day, your still clucking with a blocker implant.One guy just kept on fixin untill he got past the blocker, another went back to the clinic asking for it to be removed and the other just chucked downers down his scrag untill he could function days later and scored then.
But this wiessman geezer seems to be prayin on people, fuck how can they justify those charges.I'd rather go on holiday and just taper down.Which has got me clean many a time and given my family a nice holiday......
The concept is a decent idea,option, but the prices are a whole other ballgame.....Raz

I read in a book once" they kidnapped the scammin DR, gave her a massive Habit and let her cluck it out in a locked cellar". Only for education purposes...
Man when you pay for dope you get something out of it for your money,this shitcunt,yeah shitcunt is just chargin for a world of pain

[underide]

My 2 cents worth is this detox dont take away your desire for opis. The clinic i know about in London is the Stapleford clinic, it used to cost £2,000 for a 5day anathesia detox. Where your under for 5days. I know 3 people who've had it and they all went back to gear.
When you wake up,5th day, your still clucking with a blocker implant.One guy just kept on fixin untill he got past the blocker, another went back to the clinic asking for it to be removed and the other just chucked downers down his scrag untill he could function days later and scored then.
But this wiessman geezer seems to be prayin on people, fuck how can they justify those charges.I'd rather go on holiday and just taper down.Which has got me clean many a time and given my family a nice holiday......
The concept is a decent idea,option, but the prices are a whole other ballgame.....Raz

I read in a book once" they kidnapped the scammin DR, gave her a massive Habit and let her cluck it out in a locked cellar". Only for education purposes...
Man when you pay for dope you get something out of it for your money,this shitcunt,yeah shitcunt is just chargin for a world of pain


You might remember this, Raz:
About 2 years ago (i think) they had a reality tv show, as gruesome as it seems, done in the UK on channel4 about 3 opiate addicts, go through the rapid detox, all televised and broadcast over here in Ireland too.
It was hosted by the same guy who still reads the chanel4 news.

I watched the first night of it and the last, it looked extremely gruesome and unnerving to me.
I know that was what the show was probably aiming for, but still..

One of the ladies going through it was on methadone, and she seemed to have constant complications due to the fact that she was on the 'done, so by the time the show was over, she was still very much kicking. They said that she was transferred to a hospital in the end, i think, and rightly so.
I think they have promised an update on her, but never did or i just missed it.
But for all i know she's probably back on methadone now.

I remember they had some doctor there in the studio trying to explain opiate constipation using pig guts, clay and water, and he tried to manually show what happens when you're in withdrawals and get diarrhea - it all looked like a big farce really.

But the people there were real, and i really did feel for all of them, especially the lady on methadone.

heres' the link for an old discussion site for that show, with the pic of the presenter - Krishnan Guru:

http://www.entertainmentwise.com/news?id=13659


Very ironic that the show was actually called : 'Going Cold Turkey'
they might as well have been by the looks of it.
The only consolation - they got to do it for free

[Raz]

Hola bro, yeah i member that pro..Wasnt glued to the screen though.Do you remember the pro Traffic? Which gave a good take on H from all aspects, top of the tree to the bottom....
Anyways Hi....
just gotta do the school run, back in a min.School is 8am -2pm out here.....Peace Ray

[EleusisII]

This is from the study that Mikells linked to:

Results but the groups did not differ in rates of completion of inpatient detoxification. Treatment retention over 12 weeks was not significantly different among groups with 7 of 35 (20%) retained in the anesthesia-assisted group, 9 of 37 (24%) in the buprenorphine-assisted group, and 3 of 34 (9%) in the clonidine-assisted group.

In other words: the success of URD was pretty much the same as with bupe treatment. My conclusion stands: URD isn't a miracle cure, it might work for some, it's more effective than kicking cold turkey, and comparable to the success of bupe-treatment.

Edited for derogatory insults - TP

[underide]

Hola bro, yeah i member that pro..Wasnt glued to the screen though.Do you remember the pro Traffic? Which gave a good take on H from all aspects, top of the tree to the bottom....
Anyways Hi....
just gotta do the school run, back in a min.School is 8am -2pm out here.....Peace Ray

No man, haven't seen the 'Traffic' you're talking about.
I have seen the Hollywood movie though, it was ok i thought.

I think i remember either you or Nick mention something about it before though.

[Raz]

No man, haven't seen the 'Traffic' you're talking about.
I have seen the Hollywood movie though, it was ok i thought.

I think i remember either you or Nick mention something about it before though.
Hola, check your pms dont wanna jack ze thread Raz

[Levity]

*does a dance*

I do drug rehab for a living.
I see junkies every day.
We trade war stories about scoring and withdraws.
And I'd never send one of those poor fuckers to a URD.

*keeps dancing*

I'm also a student.
So I do alot of research.
My ass is permenantly on PsychInfo.
Weissman is unpublished.
Curious, no?

*dances faster*

The Journal of the American Medical Association (Sept 05) basicly called URDs a fraud.
A crock of shit, so to speak.
Probably because of the lack of peer reviewed studies which show it to be an effective tool in treating addiction.

*catches breath, then dances really fast*

I'm out.

[bronyraur]

Let's keep things civil. This thread should not need to be closed. Yet.

[robojunkie]

I have a suggestion, primarily for tp and elusius. Since you both have strong feelings on this URD stuff, or lets be specific and refer to the Waismann version, maybe you could both post the primary references (scholarly references, no 20/20 or dateline shit), or if either of you don't have full access to the appropriate search engines, but are aware of some specific studies that I could pull with a name or pubmed/medline id or any identifyer, and post them both here so that we could really settle this thing.

I can see both points here; in the short term if done properly the URD can cut the first 3 days of detox. This isn't a "citable study", this is simple pharmacokinetics. The URD basis is immediate de facto removal of all opiates from the MOR, essentially shooting the patient into the 72 hours wd stage amplified and hopefully anesthetized. However, these three days disappearing is good, but never can they claim with any validity that those remaining 5 to 10 days of physical sickness can be ameliorated in any way with antagonists. Removing opioids is only half the "battle" for detox, the other half is the regeneration of the proper receptor balance/distribution. These things, the MORs, are huge "7-mers" or 7copies of huge proteins that line up in a specific way, and no nothing is gonna make that happen faster.

However, I can also see some benefit, when done properly, with the appropriate prior study done to define this, especially for those who are truly motivated to be "drug free", and not on maintainance of whatever type. Its not for me, and the greed involved here is outrageous, but I think this overall discussion would be helped with some references. I've seen a couple negative articles mentioned, but only as a year/journal, which isn't a true reference. Personal testimonials, however emotionally powerful, do not provide for statistical evaluation, unless taken as an aggregate and at random.

And, finally it would great, as it is impossible to prove a negative, and since I have access to all of the search engines (scifinder, lexisnexis, crossfire, pubmed, psych and related ones I don't use much, and a bunch of other science/social science/etc ones) I'll search a bunch of terms/names (I believe tp listed some/all of the waismann docs, or someone did), and post back if I can find anything at all in scholarly peer reviewed journals by them (and, just for the record, others doing this and their results and parameters, as 90% don't mean shit if its after only 7 days, more meaningful if true after a year).

See what happens, I'll be able to post this this evening.

[Duckfeet]

Personally: as opy member, and lifetime heroin addict, and fairly well read person, I think we unfortunately give a bit of tacit support to URD by giving it it's own forum, and even allowing a moderator who obviously has a financial stake in the game, to be able to speak, at least quasi-officially about this area.

I personally am advocating, and will do my best--as an administrator--to have this area removed from Opiophile as a permanent forum, and to let it rise or fall, by the weight of our opinions, and current beliefs, rather than let it sit as a permanent area of a site I respect too much.

I don't attack other people's ways of achieving sobriety, but we don't allow *AA* it's own forum, or Ibogaine treatment, or peyote, or LSD, or even my favorite--heroin maintenance--it's own area, so I think allowing this to have a specific forum in Opiophile, might have been understood at one time, but now gives this form of treatment a support on here, I don't think it deserves, and I'll bring it up with the listowner...

[tptptp]

Bitchslap

TPTP... The more you post, the more I'm convinced that you just pull your facts randomly out of your ass... And that you're on some weird personal anti URD crusade. This is from the study that Mikells linked to:

Results but the groups did not differ in rates of completion of inpatient detoxification. Treatment retention over 12 weeks was not significantly different among groups with 7 of 35 (20%) retained in the anesthesia-assisted group, 9 of 37 (24%) in the buprenorphine-assisted group, and 3 of 34 (9%) in the clonidine-assisted group.

In other words: the success of URD was pretty much the same as with bupe treatment. So since you're obviously in way over your head, why don't you go post something about CWE to help some kids out, or how the big, bad government is out to get us all.
My conclusion stands: URD isn't a miracle cure, it might work for some, it's more effective than kicking cold turkey, and comparable to the success of bupe-treatment.

/Bitchslap
If 12 weeks were the golden number for getting clean based off of one study with 34-37 patients (LOL).
To declare that one, TINY study that was done as a 12 week DETOX has any weight.

HEY SO ELEUSIS2 IS SAYING THAT 12 WEEKS OF BUPE IS ABOUT JUST AS EFFECTIVE AS A 10-15,000 $$$$$$ PROCEDURE BUT THAT THE 10-15,000$ PROCEDURE IS ACTUALLY A GOOD OPTION!!!!! LOL
Nice logic, maybe you should think first.

Now back to the actual topic:
So a company promising a 67% success rate after 1 year isn't a ripoff? You haven't answered that. Quit dancing around the facts. It's ok for a company to tout such a large success rate to lure people into think it must be such a special treatment to cough off so much money?

According to you, this detox and bupe have the same success rate. So isn't it wrong that they bash buprenorphine and lie about their success rate!?!?!

You still haven't answered. If they claimed a REAL success rate then I'd still think this was a waste for almost everyone, but wouldn't care so much.

The fact that you back such claims makes you as much of a quack as those claiming them.

[Duckfeet]

I'm glad to see this shit being brought out of the closet, and debated in the fresh air for a while...anybody who has *postive* experience, or can bring up some *substantive* arguments in favor of this treatment, should speak up, because I myself, think time and the public have refuted it, and feel sorry for anybody who exposes themselves and their unconscious to such horrors...

I'll read tho, anything positive posted...but any of u that feel this is "just another treatment" and *not* just an expensive scam, need to speak up, if u want this maintained on opy...

[Nate]

The fact the Waismann can't even be bothered to adress this thread tells you something.

[tptptp]

I'm glad to see this shit being brought out of the closet, and debated in the fresh air for a while...anybody who has *postive* experience, or can bring up some *substantive* arguments in favor of this treatment, should speak up, because I myself, think time and the public have refuted it, and feel sorry for anybody who exposes themselves and their unconscious to such horrors...

I'll read tho, anything positive posted...but any of u that feel this is "just another treatment" and *not* just an expensive scam, need to speak up, if u want this maintained on opy...

I thought about moving to get it closed too as originally it did seem to give it some credibility. Just about all the threads on it though, even the initial ones before much data was out kinda went sour against the procedure. So I'm actually glad it's here in a way, but wouldn't miss it either.

[pizzaboy]

I'm glad to see this shit being brought out of the closet, and debated in the fresh air for a while...anybody who has *postive* experience, or can bring up some *substantive* arguments in favor of this treatment, should speak up, because I myself, think time and the public have refuted it, and feel sorry for anybody who exposes themselves and their unconscious to such horrors...

I'll read tho, anything positive posted...but any of u that feel this is "just another treatment" and *not* just an expensive scam, need to speak up, if u want this maintained on opy...

Wow...this certainly gets people fired up...

I've had a chance to look into this a little deeper and honestly, for 15,000 bucks, I want to walk out of there clean as the day I was born. Think about it...$15,000!!! Why would anyone spend that if there is a one-in-three chance, at BEST, that it is going to fail?

I see no purpose to this treatment at all. I don't neccesarily believe its a scam, and maybe the fine people involved in administering these treatments mean well, but I can't believe its truly a cost effective method of getting clean and sober for any but the privileged few.

I doubt my vote counts for much at this point but mark me down in the catagory of "let's move onto something else."

[Raz]

Wow...this certainly gets people fired up...

I've had a chance to look into this a little deeper and honestly, for 15,000 bucks, I want to walk out of there clean as the day I was born. Think about it...$15,000!!! Why would anyone spend that if there is a one-in-three chance, at BEST, that it is going to fail?

I see no purpose to this treatment at all. I don't neccesarily believe its a scam, and maybe the fine people involved in administering these treatments mean well, but I can't believe its truly a cost effective method of getting clean and sober for any but the privileged few.

I doubt my vote counts for much at this point but mark me down in the catagory of "let's move onto something else."
Hola, maybe we should have a poll.
For this treatment or not, is the price justifiable or not???Is it a scam Etc etc???

[upstate_007]

I've had a chance to look into this a little deeper and honestly, for 15,000 bucks, I want to walk out of there clean as the day I was born.

..........................

I doubt my vote counts for much at this point but mark me down in the catagory of "let's move onto something else."

I agree completely. For that kind of cash, I really would expect some sort of mythical miracle cure.

I like the idea of demoting the somewhat "official" support given to this method. For whatever my vote counts for I think all the threads could just be moved into one of the other withdrawal sub-forums. It's obviously still worth discussing, just maybe in a different area of Opiophile.

[pizzaboy]

Hola, maybe we should have a poll.
For this treatment or not, is the price justifiable or not???Is it a scam Etc etc???


Agreed, make it happen!

[SpecialGuy69]

like pizzaboy said- For my 15k, I want to walk out of there in PERFECT health, happy, no withdrawls, and the cravings, well ill deal with that my own way. My big problem with them is not their success rate, after all, addicts WILL relapse, but the fact that they dont deliver on their promise of a painless detox. I think the price is justified if they could get you through the ENTIRE withdrawls painlessly. Your on your own for after that and we all know that no matter HOW you get clean your chances of relapse are the same, so fuck the studies and refrences. The scam is not the success rate even tho 67% is obviously bullshit. The scam is that they kick you out sick!

[tptptp]

This is from the study that Mikells linked to:

Results but the groups did not differ in rates of completion of inpatient detoxification. Treatment retention over 12 weeks was not significantly different among groups with 7 of 35 (20%) retained in the anesthesia-assisted group, 9 of 37 (24%) in the buprenorphine-assisted group, and 3 of 34 (9%) in the clonidine-assisted group.

In other words: the success of URD was pretty much the same as with bupe treatment. My conclusion stands: URD isn't a miracle cure, it might work for some, it's more effective than kicking cold turkey, and comparable to the success of bupe-treatment.
Edited for derogatory insults - TP


Hey look what else... Earlier in the thread you claimed the success rate was 12% for both bupe and anesthesia detox. In fact the study you were basing that off of didn't even say 12% it said 12 WEEKS. So you didn't even read the study that you based you data off of. As usual you don't have the faintest idea of what you're even talking about.
I understand why you have to result to unrelated insults, that's the typical tactic of those who don't use any logic.

Raz, there is a poll in one of the older threads here. This was a while back before we had as much information as we have today and still most people didn't like it or didn't support it.

http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=482

The poll is moire about the cost than the procedure though. A poll would be nice for opinions and it would definitely have more dislike for the procedure than support of it, but it would be just that, only opinions.

[SpecialGuy69]

tptptp- it has NOTHING to do with success rates. All detox will have ABOUT the same success rates if you get a big enough sample over a long enough period of time. The method of detox has almost NOTHING to do with how long you stay clean. The procedure is a rip because they dont deliver on their promise of a PAINLESS, COMFORTABLE detox.

[eerased]

If my vote counts I think it would be ashamed to get rid of this topic/thread. I think it's healthy to talk/discuss/debate this.

I personally would love to see what ROBO comes back with after searching his (brain) engines and seeing if there has been anything journal-ed.

I still stand by my original opinion that URD and specifically weisass is a SCAM a total rip off and one that preys on the wallets of desperate individuals and families. I think they should be ashamed of themselves and I think by them not coming to stand up for there so called program says it all!!

Pieces of shit.

[tptptp]

tptptp- it has NOTHING to do with success rates. All detox will have ABOUT the same success rates if you get a big enough sample over a long enough period of time. The method of detox has almost NOTHING to do with how long you stay clean. The procedure is a rip because they dont deliver on their promise of a PAINLESS, COMFORTABLE detox.

You do realize I'm debating what someone else ha ssaid and not talking directly about the procedure?

This is directed at what someone else had said earlier. I disagree anyways though. Anyone familiar with the extremely low long-term success rates of a regular detox are promised a high 67% rate to think it's something special worth the 10-15k.

That is if I even understand what you're talking about. I was debating what someone else said about rates.

They don't just promise a painless detox...in facvt there may be some individuals who do this who don't this is jsut one of the biggest firms that does this. It's also the fact that their rates make itseem like there's something special about it.

A big selling point is the success rate that what, like roughly 30 X higher than normal opiate 1-year success rate? Hell, if it really had a 67% success rate the people that wanted to stay clean may not even care a whole lot about the fact that they did wake up sick. Shit, 67% is insane.

I'm well aware that everyone wakes up at least a little sick, apparently often worse than a normal detox would feel. I've said that over and over again but then we got into discussing rates too. Part of it being a huge rip is 67% success rate. I know that's a big part of why it's shady, but just not what we've been talking about most recently.

You keep saying that as if arguing me, but I've already said it myself many times over, just hasn't been what I was talking about recently...I do believe that the success rate is a contributing factor to it being a ripoff though. If you don't agree that's fine, but as you've pointed out, beyond the point.

[EleusisII]

I have a suggestion, primarily for tp and elusius. Since you both have strong feelings on this URD stuff, or lets be specific and refer to the Waismann version, maybe you could both post the primary references (scholarly references, no 20/20 or dateline shit), or if either of you don't have full access to the appropriate search engines, but are aware of some specific studies that I could pull with a name or pubmed/medline id or any identifyer, and post them both here so that we could really settle this thing.

Excellent idea, besides the fact that the Waismann method is only one of many different kinds of URD that are performed.
My only concern here is tptptp... He seems to be extremely thin-skinned, and isn't afraid of abusing his admin powers when he finds himself cornered, or can't properly argue his case.
Example: He gave me a years infraction for saying that: "he seems to pull his facts out of his ass". Did I put that rudely? Yes no doubt. Insulting? Christ it's the internet...
I find it next to impossible to discuss something with someone who isn't scared to abuse his admin-powers whenever he feels like it, or feels his cornered.
And the honorable thing to do tptptp, was to have one of the other admins give a warning, since you're involved in the debate itself. So my dillema is: How can I continue to debate this, with a member who isn't scared to abuse his admin-priviledges, unless I submit to his point of view.

I can see both points here; in the short term if done properly the URD can cut the first 3 days of detox. This isn't a "citable study", this is simple pharmacokinetics. The URD basis is immediate de facto removal of all opiates from the MOR, essentially shooting the patient into the 72 hours wd stage amplified and hopefully anesthetized.

Exactly. And this was my point to begin with. URD can remove the worst of the WD, something that many users are terrified off. That is why, I believe that URD can be helpful for some. As to what happens after that, is dependant on many factors: Will to quit, supportnetwork, etc.

Individual testimony: Such as the one that tptptp has claimed to have read over the years mean little, unless it's collected in a scientific/statistical way.
Hey, you even said you never found anybody who's had a positive experience with URD. Didn't take long to find someone with a positive experience with a similar procedure on this site, now did it? Guess it depends on what you want to see, and how hard you look for it. And for me, it seems like you're going off on some weird URD-crusade tptptp.

One of the studies I've found so far, is a study by Collins and Kleber: Journal of the American Medical Association 294. The conclusion is: 106 treatment-seeking heroin-dependent patients, were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 inpatient withdrawal treatments over 72 hours followed by 12 weeks of outpatient naltrexone maintenance with relapse prevention psychotherapy.
Treatment retention over 12 weeks was not significantly different among groups with 7 of 35 (20%) retained in the anesthesia-assisted group, 9 of 37 (24%) in the buprenorphine-assisted group, and 3 of 34 (9%) in the clonidine-assisted group.

This means, that URD is pretty much as effective as buprenorphine detox, and much more successful than the group that quit pretty much cold turkey, aided by clonidine.

HEY SO ELEUSIS2 IS SAYING THAT 12 WEEKS OF BUPE IS ABOUT JUST AS EFFECTIVE AS A 10-15,000 $$$$$$ PROCEDURE BUT THAT THE 10-15,000$ PROCEDURE IS ACTUALLY A GOOD OPTION!!!!! LOL
ehm, yeah, that's what the study said. Didn't you read it? It might not be a financial option for you, but for some people it's worth it, instead of switching from one kind of opiate to another opioid...
Ask duckfeet what he thought about being on bupe for awhile, and what a powerful drug it really is.


Another interesting study published in Journal of Addiction #100
272 opioid-dependcnt patients whose previous attempts to abstain were unsuccessful. Intervention Patients received rapid detoxification with general anaesthesia (RD-GA) or without general anaesthesia (RD). One month after the intervention 62.8% of the patients in the RDGA group and 60.09% in the RD group were abstinent for opioids (This btw comes close to the Waismans claims)

Both of these studies support my claim, that URD isn't "a sham", but a viable option, expensive yes, but viable for addicts that try to quit. Especially if they have tried to detox previously without success.
As Robojunkie so very eloquently put it, it's a proven medical fact that URD whether anasthesia induced or not, drastically cut the WDs short, thereby possibly making it easier for addicts to quit.
It's not miracle bullet of course, but nothing i this game is. And getting through the WD's is only half the game.

[EleusisII]

I have a suggestion, primarily for tp and elusius. Since you both have strong feelings on this URD stuff, or lets be specific and refer to the Waismann version, maybe you could both post the primary references (scholarly references, no 20/20 or dateline shit), or if either of you don't have full access to the appropriate search engines, but are aware of some specific studies that I could pull with a name or pubmed/medline id or any identifyer, and post them both here so that we could really settle this thing.

Excellent idea, besides the fact that the Waismann method is only one of many different kinds of URD that are performed.
My only concern here is tptptp... He seems to be extremely thin-skinned, and isn't afraid of abusing his admin powers when he finds himself cornered, or can't properly argue his case.
Example: He gave me a years infraction for saying that: "he seems to pull his facts out of his ass". Did I put that rudely? Yes no doubt. Insulting? Christ it's the internet...
I find it next to impossible to discuss something with someone who isn't scared to abuse his admin-powers whenever he feels like it, or feels his cornered.
And the honorable thing to do tptptp, was to have one of the other admins give a warning, since you're involved in the debate itself. So my dillema is: How can I continue to debate this, with a member who isn't scared to abuse his admin-priviledges, unless I submit to his point of view.

I can see both points here; in the short term if done properly the URD can cut the first 3 days of detox. This isn't a "citable study", this is simple pharmacokinetics. The URD basis is immediate de facto removal of all opiates from the MOR, essentially shooting the patient into the 72 hours wd stage amplified and hopefully anesthetized.

Exactly. And this was my point to begin with. URD can remove the worst of the WD, something that many users are terrified off. That is why, I believe that URD can be helpful for some. As to what happens after that, is dependant on many factors: Will to quit, supportnetwork, etc.

Individual testimony: Such as the one that tptptp has claimed to have read over the years mean little, unless it's collected in a scientific/statistical way.
Hey, you even said you never found anybody who's had a positive experience with URD. Didn't take long to find someone with a positive experience with a similar procedure on this site, now did it? Guess it depends on what you want to see, and how hard you look for it. And for me, it seems like you're going off on some weird URD-crusade tptptp.

One of the studies I've found so far, is a study by Collins and Kleber: Journal of the American Medical Association 294. The conclusion is: 106 treatment-seeking heroin-dependent patients, were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 inpatient withdrawal treatments over 72 hours followed by 12 weeks of outpatient naltrexone maintenance with relapse prevention psychotherapy.
Treatment retention over 12 weeks was not significantly different among groups with 7 of 35 (20%) retained in the anesthesia-assisted group, 9 of 37 (24%) in the buprenorphine-assisted group, and 3 of 34 (9%) in the clonidine-assisted group.

This means, that URD is pretty much as effective as buprenorphine detox, and much more successful than the group that quit pretty much cold turkey, aided by clonidine.

HEY SO ELEUSIS2 IS SAYING THAT 12 WEEKS OF BUPE IS ABOUT JUST AS EFFECTIVE AS A 10-15,000 $$$$$$ PROCEDURE BUT THAT THE 10-15,000$ PROCEDURE IS ACTUALLY A GOOD OPTION!!!!! LOL
ehm, yeah, that's what the study said. Didn't you read it? It might not be a financial option for you, but for some people it's worth it, instead of switching from one kind of opiate to another opioid...
Ask duckfeet what he thought about being on bupe for awhile, and what a powerful drug it really is.


Another interesting study published in Journal of Addiction #100
272 opioid-dependcnt patients whose previous attempts to abstain were unsuccessful. Intervention Patients received rapid detoxification with general anaesthesia (RD-GA) or without general anaesthesia (RD). One month after the intervention 62.8% of the patients in the RDGA group and 60.09% in the RD group were abstinent for opioids (This btw comes close to the Waismans claims)

Both of these studies support my claim, that URD isn't "a sham", but a viable option, expensive yes, but viable for addicts that try to quit. Especially if they have tried to detox previously without success.
As Robojunkie so very eloquently put it, it's a proven medical fact that URD whether anasthesia induced or not, drastically cut the WDs short, thereby possibly making it easier for addicts to quit.
It's not miracle bullet of course, but nothing i this game is. And getting through the WD's is only half the game.

[pizzaboy]

My only concern here is tptptp... He seems to be extremely thin-skinned, and isn't afraid of abusing his admin powers when he finds himself cornered, or can't properly argue his case.
Example: He gave me a years infraction for saying that: "he seems to pull his facts out of his ass". Did I put that rudely? Yes no doubt. Insulting? Christ it's the internet...
I find it next to impossible to discuss something with someone who isn't scared to abuse his admin-powers whenever he feels like it, or feels his cornered.
And the honorable thing to do tptptp, was to have one of the other admins give a warning, since you're involved in the debate itself. So my dillema is: How can I continue to debate this, with a member who isn't scared to abuse his admin-priviledges, unless I submit to his point of view.




What?

Is this true?

[SpecialGuy69]

tptptp- I agree with you 100%. Im just presenting a different angle on what you were saying, not really trying to jump in the ring with you and elu. im not arguing with you. I agree, In my mind, a ripoff is a ripoff and URD is a ripoff for many reasons. To me the bigger rip is the other thing, but if I was a parent/spouse paying for someone else to go through URD, I would probably be more concerned with relapse rates than anything else.

It would be really interesting to call them and pretend to be a prospective client with the money to pay, and see what their selling points are, what literature they send you, etc.

Bottom line: URD is NOT what they (waissman et al) represent it to be. You can get other detoxes for a fraction of the price, and they are selling snake oil to vulnerable people.

I hope i cleared up where im coming from

[mikells43]

there is one of those places that knocks bupe and offers it on the side. who said these places arn't money hungry. what if those people who have had good results with urd( the very few) were not addicts. they could have been simply dependent on drugs and able to walk away. i have seen it before. there are those people who can use for years and just walk away. im not like that, fucking opiates are allways in the back of my mind, i have one thing that a normal person does not have , thats an obsession to use, today i can control it by not using. but those people could have not been frankly "real addicts". they do exist , they are a rare endangered species but there out there. a kid in my highschool shot dope all high school, and now he teaches at a college, he just put the dope down one day and stopped, went thru w/ds and that was it. no behavior changes, no thinking mods, he just became normal. i would say hes not a real addict. he does not have a mental obsession to use per say..

[Raz]

Hola, i'll watch my language this time.
Been through cold turkey in jail and the worse period was the 2-5,6 period, so go figure how you feel when they kick you out with blockers in your system.
Like i said they are sellin lies and a world of pain, painless detox my arse

[eerased]

I called, left my name and number I'll get back on what they do/send! I can only imagine how it's going to go!

[tptptp]

tptptp- I agree with you 100%. Im just presenting a different angle on what you were saying, not really trying to jump in the ring with you and elu. im not arguing with you. I agree, In my mind, a ripoff is a ripoff and URD is a ripoff for many reasons. To me the bigger rip is the other thing, but if I was a parent/spouse paying for someone else to go through URD, I would probably be more concerned with relapse rates than anything else.

It would be really interesting to call them and pretend to be a prospective client with the money to pay, and see what their selling points are, what literature they send you, etc.

Bottom line: URD is NOT what they (waissman et al) represent it to be. You can get other detoxes for a fraction of the price, and they are selling snake oil to vulnerable people.

I hope i cleared up where im coming from

Yeah I thought we agreed, but then It looked like you kept posting trying to get some point across to me. I agree - there's multiple reasons it's a ripoff.

It's like an (expensive) offer for painless chemo for cancer patients. Most seem to go through at least as much pain as usual.

Then it's like if they promised it had a 30 times higher success rate for keeping cancer away for a year than other treatments.

Meanwhile knocking other cancer treatments out....Bad news all around.

Besides I decided to buy that mircale water sutff anyways. My favorite is from peter popoff that shit cures cancer and diseases and everything else it certainly can take my addiction away. 105% success rate. And it's only $20 for 3 vials! (6 vials if you order in the next half hour) HALLEULLUAH I'M CURED!

[Chicago]

At this point I am still upset w/Waismann & have been speaking to a paper out over in cali, I will deff keep all you guys up to date.
If I can atleast stop 1 person from losing there family savings, I will be happy.
Cannot disclose the name of the paper, but if it goes threw, my whole crew at opiophile will no.
So thats the 411 on this. Saving 1 family from this broken promise will make me happy, saving many more WOULD BE EVEN BETTER.
I never mentioned, but when I was in the minst of choosing where to do this, I could have stayed in the Chi & saved 6k, but claire told me that many people are dying by being sent back to there homes or hotels to soon after the rapid detox.
That is exactly what they did to me:mad:. Saving 6k could of did alot & staying in Chicago as well.
Keep you guys up 2 date.;)

[tptptp]

My only concern here is tptptp... He seems to be extremely thin-skinned, and isn't afraid of abusing his admin powers when he finds himself cornered, or can't properly argue his case.
Example: He gave me a years infraction for saying that: "he seems to pull his facts out of his ass". Did I put that rudely? Yes no doubt. Insulting? Christ it's the internet...
I find it next to impossible to discuss something with someone who isn't scared to abuse his admin-powers whenever he feels like it, or feels his cornered.
And the honorable thing to do tptptp, was to have one of the other admins give a warning, since you're involved in the debate itself. So my dillema is: How can I continue to debate this, with a member who isn't scared to abuse his admin-priviledges, unless I submit to his point of view.


Hahaha not even close. Me abusing my powers? HAHAHA. If I abused my powers you would be gone, guaranteed.

But when you curse out a mod and make personal attacks that have nothing to do with the thread at hand you'll get a warning everytime & I'll do it again too if needed.

Anyone behind the scenes knows I'm as fair as they come.

Insulting members one point is what you got and what you would get again & what you would have got if you had said it to anyone else too.

FYI Eleusis got the warning for starting and ending the thread with "Bitchslap" and then making unrelated personal attacks that had nothing to do with the thread. the quote that he used is not what he got banned for and he knows it because I sent him an ifnraction that had nothing to do with that quote in it. He knows it too so I guess he doesn't mind lying to everyone.

Who else on the board has an "unfair" warning from me? Hah...I've been moderating longer than you've been a member and always very fair. But a victim card won't hold me back if you deserve it you'll get it.

[Levity]

Who else on the board has an "unfair" warning from me? Hah...I've been moderating longer than you've been a member and always very fair. But a victim card won't hold me back if you deserve it you'll get it.

You keep banning me because you're a big ole meany poopiehead.

:p

[tptptp]

You keep banning me because you're a big ole meany poopiehead.

:p

"It's just the internet!" Even though it was one point and I pm'd everyone in the world about it. It's just the internet, when that works for me.

Teehee

you actually lot of trouble lately levity ;p but not from me...at least I don't think.

I took Eleusis advice and had someone else warn you (jk), because that's exactly how we operate, hell we should make him head admin so he can train us opn the best methods HOO RAA SIS BOOM BAA

[D-BoyJake]

After this they started to give Naltrexone pills 50mg, I took it for 1 day after that ONLY b/c I was not ready, this was my 1rst detox, anyway they wanted me to stay in the i.c.u 1 more day but I just couldn't knowing I could keep shitting on the bed & puking.


So as weak as I was I pretended to be ok, so w/me convinceing them I can go back to the hotel & promise to come back 2morrow 2 ck back in w/Dr.



Don't mean to be an a$$, but don't you think you bear some responsibility in the fact it didn't go well? You faked being better and you left early. Had you been that bad off, and still there, it would have given them a much better chance to treat your symptoms.

A Dr. can't fix it unless he knows it's broke...

[Chicago]

Well I did call them & came back the next day to be exact & reported all this to my Dr.
Also I was never givin the proper treatment that I payed for, I was suppose to be there 4-5 days & was bounced out in less then 72hrs from cking in, then to also here Claire say we send you to so & so after, well I got sent back to my hotel, not to so & so, which the so & so sounded pretty damm good.

I also did not fake a miracle. I was told that I was done when In fact i was suppose to be sent back up stairs for 1 more day or even 2days, but as she said exactly we never send people home str8 from the I.C.U.
BUT thats exactly what they did for me. HOW DO YOU SEND SOMEONE HOME AFTER BEING IN THE INTENSIVE CARE UNIT 12hrs SFTER THERE SURGERY, THEY DO HAVE PROTOCOL, WHICH SHE ADMITT 2 ME SHE FUCKED UP...

I PAYED FOR 1 THING & GOT ANOTHER THING, DID YOU READ ALL DETAIL 4 DETAIL?
IF I GET A TOOTH PULLED OR A SURGERY & ONLY HALF IS DONE & I SAY I'M KOOL, THEY GONNA 1RST STOP ME & LAUGH & SAY WE ARE NOT DONE YET, WHEN WE ARE DONE WE WILL LET YOU NO.

I WAS CKD IN AT 7a.m. tues all day on the shots of morphine.
Weds, brought to the i.c.u. at 10a.m. & was suppose to start URD at noon, but did not start for another 5-7hrs late?
Thurs, at noon they sent me back to my hotel str8 after the i.c.u.
Friday I CAME TO CK IN W/DR.BERSTEIN & EXPLAINED TO HIM SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT & EVEN BLEW UP THE WEISMANNS INST PHONE UP LETTING THEM NO, THEY NO THEY FUCKED UP & ALSO ANOTHER GUY FROM THE BRONX WHICH WE WERE RELEASED ON THE SAME DAY BUT THEY KEPT HIM THERE 1 DAY EXTRA, WHY/

READ IT ALL, THERE IS NO MORE TO SAY.
I TAKE NO OFFENSE IF YOU THOUGHT UR BEING AN ASS, YOU ACTUALLY WERE NOT.

Don't mean to be an a$$, but don't you think you bear some responsibility in the fact it didn't go well? You faked being better and you left early. Had you been that bad off, and still there, it would have given them a much better chance to treat your symptoms.

A Dr. can't fix it unless he knows it's broke...

[D-BoyJake]

I was suppose to be there 4-5 days & was bounced out in less then 72hrs from cking in, .

HOW DO YOU SEND SOMEONE HOME AFTER BEING IN THE INTENSIVE CARE UNIT 12hrs SFTER THERE SURGERY, THEY DO HAVE PROTOCOL, WHICH SHE ADMITT 2 ME SHE FUCKED UP...





Well, yeah. That's what I'm trying to understand. I did read all of your posts, detail for detail, but to be honest, they're really hard to understand and follow sometimes. That's probably my fault, I am on drugs. ;)

What I'm trying to understand, is if they actually kicked you out back to your hotel. As in, did they come up to you, tell you that you were done, and it was time to get out?

Or did you choose to leave because you didn't like vomiting and shitting yourself?

And when did you go through this? I saw something mentioned about it being in '99? Is that right?

Hell, I could be entirely wrong. I did up my daily dose of hydro this morning.

:)

[Chicago]

Waht is actually the nice way of having to over 10grand & having someone or hospital kick you back to the streets or hotel?

Did I leave to go back to a hotel that smelled stank to shit & so on, YES!!! IF I COULD OF WENT BACK TO CHICAGO OR WAS IN CHICAGO ITS DIFF, But I was in cali, what was at this hotel 4 me to go back to?

No food, No one to talk to, sick, needed help.
The hospital, could've did that for me so why would I leave to go somewhere by myself?

WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO GET AT?
I THINK I WENT AT THIS IN SOME DETAIL.
ARE YOU ASKING DID I LEAVE A HOSPITAL AMA AFTER PAYING OVER 10gz!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, yeah. That's what I'm trying to understand. I did read all of your posts, detail for detail, but to be honest, they're really hard to understand and follow sometimes. That's probably my fault, I am on drugs. ;)

What I'm trying to understand, is if they actually kicked you out back to your hotel. As in, did they come up to you, tell you that you were done, and it was time to get out?

Or did you choose to leave because you didn't like vomiting and shitting yourself?

And when did you go through this? I saw something mentioned about it being in '99? Is that right?

Hell, I could be entirely wrong. I did up my daily dose of hydro this morning.

:)

[Raz]

Chi bro, i dont think this guy gets ya at all.....fuck man wats he need to understand?The fuckin wisemann chic is a shitcunt whore rippin off people who are lookin for hope....Wat else is there, it is wat it is...

[eerased]

i find it hard to grasp that after reading this thread from start to finish it would be hard to understand what chi did/went through.. you might wanna reread the thread

[D-BoyJake]

** shrug **

My intent was not to offend anyone, nor to accuse anyone of not telling the truth. I'm simply trying to understand as much as I can. I've been researching anesthesia assisted detox for awhile now, trying to decide if it's something I want to try. Obviously it's prohibitively expensive, so I'm not taking that research lightly.

I'm not saying Chicago is lying or exaggerating about anything. I think I've grasped what he's been saying. And part of what he's saying is that people should stay away from this place. That's a very strong warning, and before I blindly accept it and mark them off the list, I'd like to make sure I'm doing it for the right reasons.

This isn't directed at Chicago specifically, but everyone knows that you can't always trust a junkie to always tell the truth. Hence me asking for clarification.

Chicago, I'd like to formally apologize to you if you feel like I said something negative about you, or if I offended you in any way. It was never my intention to do so.

[Chicago]

really wondering how this Bitch, just dropped off the planet....
Hopefully ur getting suied....:mad:

[Narkotikon]

I saw a documentary about OC addiction a long time ago, and one of the addicts on that did this. Flew to California and did it there at Waismann's or however it's spelled. I think that show said it cost 11,000, but I could be wrong and this show was several years ago. Anyway, it showed what they did, and it actually showed him puking / convulsing when he was sedated. There's no way in hell I'd do this. For that kind of money you could do an extremely long (and comfortable) methadone or bupe taper at your own rate. Plus, like everyone said, relapse statistics don't seem to be any better for this. I'm sure it works for some, but I certainly don't think it's a panacea. Plus, there's no way I'd let ANYONE surgically insert a Naltrexone pellet in me. I've been offered that shit 5 or so times now and have always ran in the other direction. I've heard too many horror stories of how it makes your life hell, even after all the w/d is gone. I can maybe see getting it once all the PAWS are done and over, and your brain is actually back to normal, but when you're in PAWS I really do believe Revia / naltrexone makes things worse.

[Indy]

I don't know anything about this particular Weissman clinic, and won't comment on them, but i think the concept of URD or anasthesia assisted detox would certainly be better than just going cold turkey. I mean, if you could be unconcious during the 3 days of w/d, wouldn't you? I find it hard to believe that if they really COULD keep you under for 3-4 days, it would make going through withdrawal a lot easier.
BUT


You could probably do this by yourself with someone to watch you, and a ton of benzo's
It should not cost multiple thousands of dollars to do
Just getting through the acute withdrawal doesn't really do much to help the receptors and such recover
a really heavy addict usually has pretty noticeable withdrawal symptoms for at least a week, hell even I do and i'm still at a fairly low tolerance.....and last but CERTAINLY NOT LEAST, in fact probably a bigger problem than anything....
CRAVINGS. after 3 days without drugs, you're gonna be feeling pretty down no matter what, even if the WORST of it IS over. and after getting out of the "treatment" the addict (or at least i) would have the most severe cravings imagineable

So i think it might be useful for like.....people going into an inpatient rehab clinic where they won't be able to use for a long time. or maybe people who have a fairly mild opiate addiction that wouldn't have many long lasting symptoms, AND/OR people who are only physically addicted, like chronic pain sufferers who are on heavy opioids for a long time, but never used them to get high, or anyone who doesn't have a PSYCHOLOGICAL addiction (sometimes it's hard for me to imagine people like that even exist, since i love opiates so much)

[jonny-5]

I saw a documentary about OC addiction a long time ago, and one of the addicts on that did this. Flew to California and did it there at Waismann's or however it's spelled. I think that show said it cost 11,000, but I could be wrong and this show was several years ago. Anyway, it showed what they did, and it actually showed him puking / convulsing when he was sedated. There's no way in hell I'd do this. For that kind of money you could do an extremely long (and comfortable) methadone or bupe taper at your own rate. Plus, like everyone said, relapse statistics don't seem to be any better for this. I'm sure it works for some, but I certainly don't think it's a panacea. Plus, there's no way I'd let ANYONE surgically insert a Naltrexone pellet in me. I've been offered that shit 5 or so times now and have always ran in the other direction. I've heard too many horror stories of how it makes your life hell, even after all the w/d is gone. I can maybe see getting it once all the PAWS are done and over, and your brain is actually back to normal, but when you're in PAWS I really do believe Revia / naltrexone makes things worse.


naltrexone is a horrible drug. HORRIBLE. i cant undertstand why when youre trying to be able to feel your natural endorphines that you would want to block them. eeew it makes me shiver just thinking about it.

[Chicago]

u no what I've actually think I can preform this at my own crib or hotel on people,
Any takers , if you don't like it, I'll get u 10x ur doc.:cool::)

[HandMeSomeOpiates]

I should have let you know, that this is a *hugely* controversial topic on here, more so even than it used to be...but it's legit...have at it....I know I google around, and have heard stories...sure haven't heard many positive ones, tho everybody wishes it were true. hell, even the "medium slow" detoxes, like the 21 day one, rarely work, and this one is controversial as hell...but again, all those who have had *positive* experiences with fast detox, oughtta post...I know I paid five grand for a really nice sounding medium slow detox, combined w/oxycontin and all kinds of nice stuff...but once it was over...it was over... :-)
I agree with you Duckfeet. And yes, this is a hugely controversial topic. Very interesting none the less.

[SeVeN]

I agree with you Duckfeet. And yes, this is a hugely controversial topic. Very interesting none the less.

LoL. This thread was dead da dead dead.