Suboxone - the orange speedy kind of fun

[greenfox]

Well well well, it's your favorite fox again with an update on life, love, and the foxy green skies above.

Just woke up this morning- it's like it's Christmas. Got my "bupe" refill (I've been waiting ALL week for this, let me tell you!!!) And yeah, I've heard it all.. "sub's don't get me a buzz, blah blah whatever..." well... go a week without them because you doubled your dose for the first 2-3 weeks and then come talk to me about what subs do and don't do. The funny thing? I've heard ceiling doses are at like 32mg- but I'm going to call shananagins on this one...

here's the thing: when I get my foxy dose at the beginning of each month (beginning? More like end of the first week... because of FUCKING INSURANCE... the script' was written for the 3rd! How's that for "wrong"??) ((oh well I guess it's alright- I shouldn't bitch because I know a lot of people can't even afford it, I pay 30.00 bux, no matter what, but it has to be a FULL 31 days ON THE DOT- no matter WHEN the script was written for, it doesn't matter... my doctor is understanding... he said when I was admitted to his "program" <when I answered all his dope questions honestly> that I was one of the WORST dopers he's seen.... I digress...))

The POINT that I THINK I'm trying to make is THIS: when you've switched to other opi's OR if you've "tapered" your dose down to less than a quarter of a pill a day, and THEN you get your sub's- the shit fucks you up. NO I'm not a lightweight. I was doing $50.00 to $100.00 worth of GOOD H all weeK (How good? See the thread about how this dope killed my friend,) ... and I was doing it because i stupidly ran myself out of meds (know that story? LOL!) So... yesterday was my last "dope day"... heh.. :) Took a shot early because of "precip wd's" stories (WHICH I think are bullshit- I've never got none of that, but then again I only re-started using oxy's and h for a week, so ... it MIGHT be true if you are on other opi's for a lot longer, spec. the 'done....) but WHATEVER.....

the green-tailed-foxy-point:

I love my subs.

I don't care what ANYONE else says about them. YES you become tolerant very quickly on the SAME dose, no matter how high or "low" (heh) that dose is. But FUCK IT... when you're like me, and your shit literally looks like a roller coaster ride in the way you take it, BUPE DAY is almost as sweet as Christmas. Seriously.

A lot of people put it down. YES it's not as good as H. I wouldn't try to spin that HERE. But you know what? I like it better than the 'done. THe 'done makes me feel like a zombie- and it's like, the more I take, the more zombie I feel. It doesn't make me "happy"- the BUPE does. I know that this is still a very new and very strange drug that not even the research chemists and the docs understand- but i understand THIS: when I get my script' and it's been 12+ hours since I've been using OTHER opiates OR if I'm on a very low dose (1/4 to 1/5th of a pill or lower) for a week BEFORE bupe day....

you know what? A couple shots of jim beam (I'm sick- I like "the wait" - it's part of the thrill- even if I have it IN HAND I will wait until as long as I can possibly stand it...) so basically a can of red bull.. like 4 or 5 shots of jim beam...

...then..

FINALLY....

the bupe. And when it's "the day" I ALWAYS take 32mg (I'm 'scribed' 16mg) and it fucks me up. It fucks me up enough to come here and type THIS shit out. And you know what? I really don't care what OTHER people say.. I know what this drug does to ME. And i love it. No "swim" - I come on here and can LEGALLY talk my shit about the 'bupe. :) it's lovely. So here's to all the cops out there:

I'm taking my PRESCRIPTION opiates, WITH alcohol, AND redbull and I'm getting

FUCKED UP!!!!

LOL!!!! :)

Foxy tails to that.

I love america.

You're not "legally" allowed to take drugs... unless it's "their" drugs.

America... here's to "your" drugs!!!! :D

peace.

sig,fik,
-=gf

[OxyContinuously]

I had pretty good results w/ bupe also. Although my dose was a bit lower (8mg made me feel sick as hell) but 4mg or so snorted works well. And I def. DO get "high" from bupe. No complaints here; it's basically "anti-withdrawal" in a bottle.

handy in a pinch

[greenfox]

I had pretty good results w/ bupe also. Although my dose was a bit lower (8mg made me feel sick as hell) but 4mg or so snorted works well. And I def. DO get "high" from bupe. No complaints here; it's basically "anti-withdrawal" in a bottle.

handy in a pinch

yeah it is.

But you know what's funny? A lot of people "put it down" - I can't understand that. Even if it DIDN'T get you off, wouldn't it be better than laying in bed all day throwing up in a bucket- TRAINSPOTTING style?

I mean, it is what it is.

I will NEVER say it's that "first shot in a week or more" because that would be a lie.

But ....

when all is said and done,

the bupe... I hate to say it.. but ... I like... it...hell... I LOVE it.

Peace.

sig,fik,
-=gf

[OxyContinuously]

yeah it is.

But you know what's funny? A lot of people "put it down" - I can't understand that. Even if it DIDN'T get you off, wouldn't it be better than laying in bed all day throwing up in a bucket- TRAINSPOTTING style?

I mean, it is what it is.

I will NEVER say it's that "first shot in a week or more" because that would be a lie.

But ....

when all is said and done,

the bupe... I hate to say it.. but ... I like... it...hell... I LOVE it.

Peace.

sig,fik,
-=gf

Definitely bro, I noticed that too...I was thinking at first maybe people with really large habits be4 the bupe may not feel it as well as s/o w/ a smaller habit, but that's not the case either.

Bupe's weird cuz some swear by it, some people get *nothing* from it (besides not being sick, which can be a "high" of its own, lol) and still others like u and me and a few other peeps here have no complaints.

I've never tried methadone (as a maintenance program, I mean) but from what I hear, there are a lot more "cons" associated with methadone than with bupe, so in short, I'm glad I went the bupe route.

(I did it right, u know see a doctor put up with their condescension, lie about my intake to get a bigger script, yada yada)

but all in all, i'm happy with it.

peace
oxy

[greenfox]

Definitely bro, I noticed that too...I was thinking at first maybe people with really large habits be4 the bupe may not feel it as well as s/o w/ a smaller habit, but that's not the case either.

Bupe's weird cuz some swear by it, some people get *nothing* from it (besides not being sick, which can be a "high" of its own, lol) and still others like u and me and a few other peeps here have no complaints.

I've never tried methadone (as a maintenance program, I mean) but from what I hear, there are a lot more "cons" associated with methadone than with bupe, so in short, I'm glad I went the bupe route.

(I did it right, u know see a doctor put up with their condescension, lie about my intake to get a bigger script, yada yada)

but all in all, i'm happy with it.

peace
oxy


seriously... LOL!!!!!! <----- :D I know ALL about the "intake" process.. dude wanted me on like 4-8mg a day... but we know allllllllll about that. Somehow I got upto 16. I know that SOME people in DISTANT places get a higher dose, but THIS doctor.. this is the highest dose HE prescribes at HIS clinic. So I can't complain. he even told me first time around that it was a "Very high dose". Whatever. I take twice that on my first refill day, then come here to brag about it. :) !!!

and yeah, "not being sick" is DEFINITELY a high in and of itself. I don't care what anyone says.

AND ALSO: yeah.. with the whole 'done maintenance program- I never did the actual program (WHO the HELL wants to go to the clinic EVERY FUCKING DAY for a G** damn dose!?!??) but having said THAT- I've also been in a spot once or twice where I had enough liquid 'done to do my "own" program at home :)

and that's where I'm speaking from. My "dose" (albeit self-imposed) might have been QUITE high (in excess of 150mgs/a/day) I still DID NOT LIKE IT. I was taking done' by itself for like a week- then I was supplementing it with FENT. patches (cut up and eaten, of course,) for another week.. the combination only made me throw up in the trash can. Strange- considering fent. on its own always made me wobble like I took a shot...

whatever.

Strange tails.

Foxy tails.

We are "that kind' of person that will eat 180+mg of oxycontin and then scam for three Vicodins on top of it. :D LOL!

Peace.

sig,fik,
-=gf

[Inspektahdek]

Fent makes me wobble too, that's when I know to take a little break, I also was orginally scripted 32mg bupe, now 24, so yea you can get scripted quite a bit

[mikells43]

subutex refill day for me is like xmas. i never run out early tho. my insurance makes me go 28 days exactly too. unless a "dose change". i love subutex:)

[greenfox]

subutex refill day for me is like xmas. i never run out early tho. my insurance makes me go 28 days exactly too. unless a "dose change". i love subutex:)

I wish I knew the REAL difference between 'box and 'tex......


I hear you can shoot this and that.

I'd really love to know.

I'd really LOVE to know if you can shoot suboxone. I'm sure it's not GOOD for you (what is?) but... it's be great to either once and for all dispell the suboxone p.w.d. rumor or... whatever.

peace.

sig,fik,
-=gf

[mikells43]

if u shoot it u risk loosing limbs. i wouldnt do it if i were u. it does not mix up to a totally liquid state its a compound allways even in saline. please dont shoot it, people get seriously fucked up off of it (not fucked in the buzz way). people have shot it on here but its not recommended..

heres some refrence materal for u

http://www.annals.edu.sg/pdf/34VolNo9200510/V34N9p575.pdf

http://annals.edu.sg/pdf/35VolNo7200608/V35N7p487.pdf

http://www.sma.org.sg/smj/4711/4711a1.pdf

there u go check out the cool pics there of people that shot subutex.

keith

[greenfox]

if u shoot it u risk loosing limbs. i wouldnt do it if i were u. it does not mix up to a totally liquid state its a compound allways even in saline. please dont shoot it, people get seriously fucked up off of it (not fucked in the buzz way). people have shot it on here but its not recommended..

heres some refrence materal for u

http://www.annals.edu.sg/pdf/34VolNo9200510/V34N9p575.pdf

http://annals.edu.sg/pdf/35VolNo7200608/V35N7p487.pdf

http://www.sma.org.sg/smj/4711/4711a1.pdf

there u go check out the cool pics there of people that shot subutex.

keith

You know it's funny because I don't recognize you from the "old days" (before my semi-retirement) :) but it's ok because what's even FUNNIER is I was just reading ANOTHER thread you had written on, (literally- just now- playing catch up,) and it says you've never shot anything.

Now, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, nor am I going to discredit singapor-ian research, HOWEVER.... I never really trust "research" - hell I don't trust AMERICAN research, let alone that from Singapore.

HOWEVER.. the only real experience I have "shooting' suboxone is that which I forced on my od'ing friend. He's alright. Not even a scratch (and it's almost 2 1/2 days later)... in fact, he's prob. gonna come over later tonight to gobble some of my subs' and drink with me. :)

And also: as far as you never really shooting or whatever- good for you, don't start if you can help it.

Then again, the devil inside me says... try...it............JUST once.

:)

And while you're pondering all THAT,

here's a tasty Youtube link. I found this today. This girl is HOT. I'd do H with her.... :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU0VoCQLGWA

(she plays well (good) too!) :) :cool:

peace

sig,fik,
-=gf

[Duckfeet]

That's the way I am, gf: I just don't trust anything I read, and I've shot up all the other crap, and I'm still kicking, so... but also, just for gp's I made the doc give me subutex, since that way shooting it up won't fuck w/the subs...and I didn't feel anything...why put holes in me for that boring crap...but anyway, u'll probably try it too..but I also always got overperscribed, and stayed at lower levels, as I've read enough about "less is more" by longterm users--see heroin-detox.com, in the buprenorphene forum, for what I find to be really credible and good info...by people who *don't* like subs...like me...but I'm no different than everybody else on here: I take a postion,,,then google around and get all the "research" to support my postition LOL....

[mikells43]

those are far from research dear, those are the real deals. u can contact every doctor on those journal abstracts and ask them any question u want about what they have written there. its true, its not made up or a stat , it really happened. they really operated on those people due to subutex fucking up their insides and causing major damage, this is not a fairy tale this is the real deal. i wouldnt give you some research bullshit. those are real cases of actual people that actually used that drug the wrong way and suffered severe concenquences.

and you are right, i have never shot anything in my life. i have had iv drugs in the er and hospital but i never shot shit. and im proud of that. i dont plan on shooting or using anything in the near future eather.

[Crow]

Dude, no offense, but you really have to get over your self-righteousness. About every single post you write is the same..."Subutex is a miracle drug. I am clean, and everyone else should be just like me, and take their subs and stop being a junkie..."

Just because you aren't on dope, don't mean you aren't a junkie. You still have a habbit man, and from what I've seen you are more obsessed with buprenorphine then I ever was with heroin. Does Reckitt Benckiser pay you for your advertising?

Im not trying to knock ya for getting off yr bad ways man, congratulations, really. I mean that. All the same, subs don't work as well for everyone as they do for you. You always talk about how morally wrong being an addict is, yet you were in the same shoes at some point my friend. Or maybe you weren't, and thats why you like the subs so much. They get you higher than your last addiction?

By all means, I am not trying to instigate anything. Sorry if I am coming off as an ass. I am just really tired of hearing the same old schpiel from you, it's almost like you have it rehearsed.


Anyyyyyways, GF, glad you love your subs so much, they definitely are great for keeping away the god awful super dee dooper sickness. It always makes me smile to see someone seek help with subs (or done), and actually benefit from the medication and kick dope, or whatever they are on. I'm praying someday the subs will work for me the way they are for you. Much luck my friend, and congratulations on the refill!

[mikells43]

no subs dont make me happy like that. the fact that i am living an honest life today makes life so great. im sorry that you feel the way you do, thats on u, not on me. i have enough stuff on my plate thats not even that big of a deal. subs work if you work a recovery program with them and change EVERYTHING. i dont condone them for anyone who plans not to change anything cause ull still have that mentality of an addict and what pill is going to help with that?



I use bupe as a tool for my recovery, not as the miracle pill that fixes everything, cause if u do that ur just going to get sick of how things are and use eventually cause ur just an addict thats not using, as they say with alocholism ur just a dry drunk. and im glad i never used herion, that would have been my demise as i read about on here alot and its really sad. in no way did i ever say take subs and ur life will be good, it takes work. bupe is a wonderful medication, its not for everyone and requires alot of change in the person when taking the medicine. yes im dependent on subs, but im not addicted to them. addiction and dependence vary in many ways. a diabetic is dependent on insilun(sp), a high blood pressure pt is dependent on the meds, shall i go on. i dont exibit addictive behaviors(at least i try not to), but theres still that beast in me still. i wish everyone could live a great life, but addiction is such a fucking enemy of life that its impossible in this day and age with the chemicals that are out there. but hey hang in there, ull find something that works. ;-)

addiction:
A behavioral syndrome characterized by the repeated, compulsive seeking or use of a substance despite adverse social, psychological, and/or physical consequences, and a need for an increased amount of the substance, as time goes on, to achieve the same effect. Addiction is often (but not always) accompanied by physical dependence, a withdrawal syndrome, and tolerance.

Addiction is a primary, chronic, neurobiologic disease, with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. It is characterized by behaviors that include one or more of the following: impaired control over drug use, compulsive use, continued use despite harm, and craving.
dependence:
“dependence” by itself has little meaning in the field of addiction treatment. This is because currently the phrase “substance dependence” and “physical dependence” have very different meanings. Which “dependence” is someone referring to when the word is used alone in this context? Confusing the two could lead to a misunderstanding at best and a misdiagnosis at worse. There is some talk within the industry to bring back the word “addiction” to use in place of “substance dependence” in an effort to help with some of the confusion. For the time being we are stuck with two similar phrases with two very different meanings. Understanding the difference is essential.
see: physical dependence, substance dependence, craving, and addiction

and im no obsessed with bupe, in fact its unhealthy to be obsessed with one thing in general. my obsession to use drugs(narcotics, benzos, opiates whatever you wanna call them) has been lifted , but not to say that it can't come back. it can allways come back and for some people does.

mabey subs dont work for you cause ur not ready to quit?? have not hit ur bottom. arn't totaly full of watever drug u use, the benifits still outweigh the concenquences. thats only human to be not ready to quit if ur not experencing pain. for some of us it takes a whole lot of pain and agony to wanna quit, and for others its just a lil pain, everyones diff. give yourself a break!

[Hiram]

here's a tasty Youtube link. I found this today. This girl is HOT. I'd do H with her.... :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU0VoCQLGWA

(she plays well (good) too!) :) :cool:



I don't know man, she looks a little too young. 15 maybe?

[greenfox]

Dude, no offense, but you really have to get over your self-righteousness. About every single post you write is the same..."Subutex is a miracle drug. I am clean, and everyone else should be just like me, and take their subs and stop being a junkie..."

Just because you aren't on dope, don't mean you aren't a junkie. You still have a habbit man, and from what I've seen you are more obsessed with buprenorphine then I ever was with heroin. Does Reckitt Benckiser pay you for your advertising?

Im not trying to knock ya for getting off yr bad ways man, congratulations, really. I mean that. All the same, subs don't work as well for everyone as they do for you. You always talk about how morally wrong being an addict is, yet you were in the same shoes at some point my friend. Or maybe you weren't, and thats why you like the subs so much. They get you higher than your last addiction?

By all means, I am not trying to instigate anything. Sorry if I am coming off as an ass. I am just really tired of hearing the same old schpiel from you, it's almost like you have it rehearsed.


Anyyyyyways, GF, glad you love your subs so much, they definitely are great for keeping away the god awful super dee dooper sickness. It always makes me smile to see someone seek help with subs (or done), and actually benefit from the medication and kick dope, or whatever they are on. I'm praying someday the subs will work for me the way they are for you. Much luck my friend, and congratulations on the refill!


Were you talking to me? LOL!!! I'm far from "reformed"- I shot dope all last week when I ran out of subs. :) If I misunderstood, then forgive me. Peace.

sig,fik,
-=gf

[greenfox]

I don't know man, she looks a little too young. 15 maybe?

in another video she talks about having a kid so I don't know @.o

[Duckfeet]

Nah, yer safe tonight GF, he was talking to Mikell. I started to lay into Mikell too, but he's like you, he's kind of "grown" on me, and I like him, even tho I disagree with a lot of what he says...hey, we need one of him around here: Alottment: 1 GreenFox, 1 Mikell, 1 Duckfeet ... that's the limit! Any more would be too many!!!

[HowLongIsTooLong]

here's a tasty Youtube link. I found this today. This girl is HOT. I'd do H with her.... :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU0VoCQLGWA

(she plays well (good) too!) :) :cool:

-=gf
Yeah yeah, great post...

But that chick! OMFG! Do H with her? That's all?!
Great link, Foxy

[Duckfeet]

Nah: she's the kind of girl yer mother would like...pretty song, but I know a guitar playing wino can sing it better...it's a *boys* song...

[greenfox]

Nah, yer safe tonight GF, he was talking to Mikell. I started to lay into Mikell too, but he's like you, he's kind of "grown" on me, and I like him, even tho I disagree with a lot of what he says...hey, we need one of him around here: Alottment: 1 GreenFox, 1 Mikell, 1 Duckfeet ... that's the limit! Any more would be too many!!!

I think I understand the reason you always pick on me - it's cuz' u compete with me for the biggest/best/lowest junkie spot.

sig,fik
-=gf

[drugsaregood]

When I got out of rehab (was in for a month) I headed straight for a sub 'doc. I got buzzed. Puked my guts out. Honestly I got sick of subs quick, wouldn't take them, do them on occasion...It's a crap buzz in my opinion. Speedy, yes. Bad constipation. It reminds me of having the flu and being on codeine. Obviously everyone has their own preferences. Snorting & Plugging them is the way to go...I'd get hammered off a quarter up the bum before...

I never mixed with benzos, wouldn't mind trying that sometime...

Glad your still being the same old foxy fox. Stay green.

[Duckfeet]

Nah: u know I love yah: I only pick on you once a year...whether u need it, or not......;-)


I think I understand the reason you always pick on me - it's cuz' u compete with me for the biggest/best/lowest junkie spot.

sig,fik
-=gf

[Crow]

no subs dont make me happy like that. the fact that i am living an honest life today makes life so great. im sorry that you feel the way you do, thats on u, not on me. i have enough stuff on my plate thats not even that big of a deal. subs work if you work a recovery program with them and change EVERYTHING. i dont condone them for anyone who plans not to change anything cause ull still have that mentality of an addict and what pill is going to help with that?



I use bupe as a tool for my recovery, not as the miracle pill that fixes everything, cause if u do that ur just going to get sick of how things are and use eventually cause ur just an addict thats not using, as they say with alocholism ur just a dry drunk. and im glad i never used herion, that would have been my demise as i read about on here alot and its really sad. in no way did i ever say take subs and ur life will be good, it takes work. bupe is a wonderful medication, its not for everyone and requires alot of change in the person when taking the medicine. yes im dependent on subs, but im not addicted to them. addiction and dependence vary in many ways. a diabetic is dependent on insilun(sp), a high blood pressure pt is dependent on the meds, shall i go on. i dont exibit addictive behaviors(at least i try not to), but theres still that beast in me still. i wish everyone could live a great life, but addiction is such a fucking enemy of life that its impossible in this day and age with the chemicals that are out there. but hey hang in there, ull find something that works. ;-)

addiction:
A behavioral syndrome characterized by the repeated, compulsive seeking or use of a substance despite adverse social, psychological, and/or physical consequences, and a need for an increased amount of the substance, as time goes on, to achieve the same effect. Addiction is often (but not always) accompanied by physical dependence, a withdrawal syndrome, and tolerance.

Addiction is a primary, chronic, neurobiologic disease, with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. It is characterized by behaviors that include one or more of the following: impaired control over drug use, compulsive use, continued use despite harm, and craving.
dependence:
“dependence” by itself has little meaning in the field of addiction treatment. This is because currently the phrase “substance dependence” and “physical dependence” have very different meanings. Which “dependence” is someone referring to when the word is used alone in this context? Confusing the two could lead to a misunderstanding at best and a misdiagnosis at worse. There is some talk within the industry to bring back the word “addiction” to use in place of “substance dependence” in an effort to help with some of the confusion. For the time being we are stuck with two similar phrases with two very different meanings. Understanding the difference is essential.
see: physical dependence, substance dependence, craving, and addiction

and im no obsessed with bupe, in fact its unhealthy to be obsessed with one thing in general. my obsession to use drugs(narcotics, benzos, opiates whatever you wanna call them) has been lifted , but not to say that it can't come back. it can allways come back and for some people does.

mabey subs dont work for you cause ur not ready to quit?? have not hit ur bottom. arn't totaly full of watever drug u use, the benifits still outweigh the concenquences. thats only human to be not ready to quit if ur not experencing pain. for some of us it takes a whole lot of pain and agony to wanna quit, and for others its just a lil pain, everyones diff. give yourself a break!

You know what man, you are right. I am sorry, I was a bit grumpy the other night, and while I still do not totally agree with what you are saying, Duckfeet has a point......you aren't as bad as I am making ya out to be. I am glad the subs have worked for you, if only I could say the same then I wouldn't have laid into you the way I did. Maybe Im jealous in a way? Believe me, I have hit rock bottom a million too many times, yet I still cant quite get the hang of subs. If I do in fact start taking them, I always find myself shooting up/wasting bags later that night. I have shot heroin every day for at least a third of my twenty one years on this planet, and with each passing day I want to get off dope more and more yet I feel my addiction growing ever rapidly. Someday, I am hoping, I will have the courage to do the switch to subs without having to use on top of it. It's coming, I can feel it. My mind is on the brink of a steady effort to quit, there are just a few things holding me back right now. Im gunna do it, Im gunna do it, Im gunna do it.....

So, my whole point, which got a little side tracked as I am high as kite, is that I am sorry for jumping at your throat Mikells43. Different strokes for different folks, I respect your opinion even if I do not agree with everything you say and/or do. As I said, I was in a bad mood when I posted it, in withdrawal if I remember correctly...


Oh, and Greenfox, of course I am not talking to you! You are da bomb diggity, got it?


And last but not least, Duckfeet buddy, think you can make room in your alottment for 1 Crow? I don't want any wannabees stomping on in, and I never have enough dope or money to keep even one of me just off of empty. ;) Tonight is my first night actually "high" in months. Man do I wish you could fly over here and do some of this east coast shit with me, every time I hear you complain about the tar out there I actually count my blessings that I live in such a good area for dope quality. Most of the time I just take it for granted though, cause I never have enough of it to satisfy my all-devouring arm. Gotta love New York and Hartford. At least you have beautiful chicks in their bathing suits all year round. Not a shabby trade off.

[Duckfeet]

Yer all rite, Crow: we definitely got room for one of you...:-)


And I'm glad u see that Mikell is a good hearted guy too. I delete more of my own posts to Mikell than any other opy. I figure we need one guy "in recovery" on here, who uses Bupe the way he's supposed to, and changes his life, and gets better, and spouts all the 12step party line....blah blah blah...

I figure one of two things will happen: Either I'll get sick of this life, and be posting Mikell "how'd u do it, boy?"

Or he'll crash and burn, and join the rest of us, and, god knows, we understand....

Either way, we got room enough on here...and w/all our grouchy "fuck you" ways...we're still pretty tolerant...

Save a spot for me on a handy couch, I swear I'm not touching IV pills or tar again...I'm so sick of punching zeros....:-)


Well done, btw...Mikell's human, and a pal...



You know what man, you are right. I am sorry, I was a bit grumpy the other night, and while I still do not totally agree with what you are saying, Duckfeet has a point......you aren't as bad as I am making ya out to be. I am glad the subs have worked for you, if only I could say the same then I wouldn't have laid into you the way I did. Maybe Im jealous in a way? Believe me, I have hit rock bottom a million too many times, yet I still cant quite get the hang of subs. If I do in fact start taking them, I always find myself shooting up/wasting bags later that night. I have shot heroin every day for at least a third of my twenty one years on this planet, and with each passing day I want to get off dope more and more yet I feel my addiction growing ever rapidly. Someday, I am hoping, I will have the courage to do the switch to subs without having to use on top of it. It's coming, I can feel it. My mind is on the brink of a steady effort to quit, there are just a few things holding me back right now. Im gunna do it, Im gunna do it, Im gunna do it.....
So, my whole point, which got a little side tracked as I am high as kite, is that I am sorry for jumping at your throat Mikells43. Different strokes for different folks, I respect your opinion even if I do not agree with everything you say and/or do. As I said, I was in a bad mood when I posted it, in withdrawal if I remember correctly...
Oh, and Greenfox, of course I am not talking to you! You are da bomb diggity, got it?
And last but not least, Duckfeet buddy, think you can make room in your alottment for 1 Crow? I don't want any wannabees stomping on in, and I never have enough dope or money to keep even one of me just off of empty. ;) Tonight is my first night actually "high" in months. Man do I wish you could fly over here and do some of this east coast shit with me, every time I hear you complain about the tar out there I actually count my blessings that I live in such a good area for dope quality. Most of the time I just take it for granted though, cause I never have enough of it to satisfy my all-devouring arm. Gotta love New York and Hartford. At least you have beautiful chicks in their bathing suits all year round. Not a shabby trade off.

[mikells43]

the bupe game is a weird one, I kno people that have used 8-10 80's a day and are on 32mg, i kno people that have used heroin like its out of style and it takes him 45 days to use 30 8mg subutex( i dont kno what that equals out to but its low). me personally i use about 10mg total a day and i never touched a needle. everyone with this shit is diff. but u might have a needle fetish too bro. it takes time but u can work on it. i wondered why u were such a doosh to me the other nite too. i never did anything to u.

[greenfox]

the bupe game is a weird one, I kno people that have used 8-10 80's a day and are on 32mg, i kno people that have used heroin like its out of style and it takes him 45 days to use 30 8mg subutex( i dont kno what that equals out to but its low). me personally i use about 10mg total a day and i never touched a needle. everyone with this shit is diff. but u might have a needle fetish too bro. it takes time but u can work on it. i wondered why u were such a doosh to me the other nite too. i never did anything to u.


I did the "recovery" thing on my own twice and forced once....

it's ok. It's got its ups, but these "people" with their holier-than-thou shit, it drives me nuts. This last time, (I have ONE WEEK left of probation, so it's still technically "this last time",) I go to these AA meetings and these people flip out to even hear I'm ON subs. I don't go off on them for drinking vanilla extract to get off; they need to lay off the shit about my "habits". And m: the only reason you've never "touched the needle" is the same reason I didn't- (at first) - lack of desperation and fear of needles, etc, etc.

But... it does grow on you.

For all intents and purposes, I really do hope you "stay clean" from whatever got you (which I don't even really know what that was,) but as they say in Star Trek (I think): "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees..."

well... yeah, basically..

it's just too tempting when you've got clean shit and the shit is powdery goodness. I get calls (a lot nowadays) from this dude that's lacking a car... he gets me REAAAAAAAAL high just for the ride (not, "well here's your shit thanks for the ride, be lucky the shot's even brown.."

I mean actually really actually high.

or foxy low, if you prefer (I do)! ;)

They say a lot of it is physical pain. They say the pain can build, but if/once it's cured, you're good to go.

But wait a second...

what if the "pain" is mental??!? what THEN!?? That's my question.

I've heard all the answers, too. God, spirituality, family, etc, etc. And you know what?!? I buy the "God" thing- a lot. If not, my friend would have DIED a couple nights ago, or at bare minimum, I would have had tons and tons of drama to deal with. Well, turns out I didn't. Sure, I'll admit it- I prayed right before/as it was happening. Seems the lucky ones get their prayers answered- most of the times, anyways.

I TRY to consider myself lucky. I've seen enough shit in my days to float a blimp. I guess that's how it goes, in the game. I don't even call it "a/the game" anymore- seems less than accurate. It's a life, and for that matter, a lifestyle. Some days I get low, some days I don't. For instance: last night I got pretty fucking drunk off rum and cokes, but... not so much low. But the upside?!? I get low WHEN I WANT- when I don't or cant, (d/cn't) the BUPE staves it all off. It makes living fun again. And it's nice- I have a choice whereas for so many years I didn't.

THAT, good sirs and madams, is the beauty of bupe. It's not H. It was never supposed to be. It's the h that you have to have when you can't have REAL h. That, in summation, is why it's beautiful....

it lets you appreciate the times you DO get low.

And in force to all else, and MOST importantly...

THAT... is why it's just so damn.. ..... well...

.... it's... it's... just...................so......................dam n....


FOXY

peace.

sig,fik,
-=gf

[Duckfeet]

You must have missed crow's long post, right above me^^^^^^saying he was sorry: u get a lot more slack than you know on here, Mikell, so lighten up on people: this ain't a "recovery" forum....take yer own damn inventory, as seems to me *you're* the one being a "doosh" now.... if yer gonna deal out stock treatment center 12 step silliness, u better be prepared once in a while for people who get sick of it....it's not what u *do* to people, it's the superior tone u use: we aren't idiots: even tho u pretend to talk about yerself, like any good meeting goer, u don't realize yet how that crap comes across on here...I"d reread *all* the posts in a thread before u take someone to task....



the bupe game is a weird one, I kno people that have used 8-10 80's a day and are on 32mg, i kno people that have used heroin like its out of style and it takes him 45 days to use 30 8mg subutex( i dont kno what that equals out to but its low). me personally i use about 10mg total a day and i never touched a needle. everyone with this shit is diff. but u might have a needle fetish too bro. it takes time but u can work on it. i wondered why u were such a doosh to me the other nite too. i never did anything to u.

[Hiram]

You must have missed crow's long post, right above me^^^^^^saying he was sorry: u get a lot more slack than you know on here, Mikell, so lighten up on people: this ain't a "recovery" forum....take yer own damn inventory, as seems to me *you're* the one being a "doosh" now.... if yer gonna deal out stock treatment center 12 step silliness, u better be prepared once in a while for people who get sick of it....it's not what u *do* to people, it's the superior tone u use: we aren't idiots: even tho u pretend to talk about yerself, like any good meeting goer, u don't realize yet how that crap comes across on here...I"d reread *all* the posts in a thread before u take someone to task....

That holier-than-thou mentality is actually dangerous to ppl in recovery, because in the event of a slip up you either lie to maintain the image thats been portrayed, or because you are giving yourself possible unrealistic expectations and the feeling of failure can be more overwhelming than it should be.

[Duckfeet]

I've been there, and left town I was so ashamed, and why I rarely post about that side of my life on here...as nobody on here is seen in any better lite than anybody else...and a love of vocabulary that puts one in a better light is seen for what it is: I save AA talk for AA meetings, and recogize it's limitations, and even it's silliness....it uses limited circular reasoning to prove a preconceived notion that they all want to believe in....

Whether I admit I'm addicted to opiates, or buy into the latest jargon that tries to show a difference between "dependence and addiction" (yawn) strungout is strungout is strungout...and as soon as I start thinking I'm "not really addicted, this is different..." then I'm headed for a bad spot when I'm withdrawing and sick, and have nobody to turn to, since I burnt all my bridges with conceited presumptions...

As long as I have to do a daily opiate to function, I better face that hard fact, no matter what kind of silly crap I read, or what some self-serving goofball doctor spouts....I'm still doing dope to get rite ... I can lie to other people all day long...but one day I might not *have* that little pill to do...and I'll find out, just like methadone, where the real power lies, and it ain't between my ears, no matter how many meetings I go to, or what kind of prayers I make...cuz I haven't seen *any* god tuff enuff yet, to get rid of serious opiate withdrawals....

That holier-than-thou mentality is actually dangerous to ppl in recovery, because in the event of a slip up you either lie to maintain the image thats been portrayed, or because you are giving yourself possible unrealistic expectations and the feeling of failure can be more overwhelming than it should be.

[IceCold]

I used to think that subs were great fun also. For some reason they just don't get me well anymore. Subs used to have me feeling great. Now the only withdrawl symptom that subs cure is a runny nose and sneezing all of the other symptoms remain. Those are the symptoms I care least about. Subs stopped working after I started shooting. I don't really think those two events are related though because I don't really get any higher now that I shoot. When I snorted dope I just snorted more to get the same high. I don't really know why suboxones don't work for me anymore i guess it is just one of lifes mysteries. Or maybe my body just reacts differently now.

[Hiram]

DF - Agreed. This is my last post on the subject. I think Mikells means well, but in reality AA or any variation of it has a 90%+ (w/o looking it up) failure rate with drug addicts. If it works for you great, but it doesn't work for the majority. Addiction is way too complex to figure out here, or to push a one size fits all program that was designed around alcohol down everybody's throat.

I do disagree with the third-person type higher power within the 12 steps. I believe that for every action there is a reaction. Some of these actions we need to take responsibility for, not try to pawn them off on some higher power.

"Step 6-We're entirely ready to have G-d remove all these defects of character."
Okay, I'm ready. <checks watch>.........Still waiting. Maybe actions need to be looked at by the person performing them. Opiate addiction is a different ballgame too, because of the chemical complexities within our brains and so forth. So what happens when the 12 steps don't work? Do you blame the higher power instead of taking responsibility? The key is to understand that our actions are not caused by a supernatural force and sometimes wisdom needs to be gained and inventoried instead of trying to find a cop out. There isn't a one-size-fits all approach to this IMHO and most of us aren't angels. It is what it is.

[mikells43]

its helped billions.

[Duckfeet]

I go there, the way non-believers go to church: to have a place to go...and I try to talk people out of sponsoring them, but honestly, they like me...but I do try really hard, not to use treatment center talk on here, since there is no statistical proof that AA or NA works any better than just plain "stoppin on your own..." And it is nauseating and non-sensical to people *not* in NA or AA...as it should be...

They did me some good by clapping all the time when I quit drinking, and by me making amends, I got my mother and sister back in my life... I don't believe in "god" or "higher poswer" or any of it, as it is *always* circular thinking: if u stay sober, u must be doing something right, when u slip, all of a sudden, people say" well, he must have been doing something wrong..."

It's o.k. to go there, no problem, o.k. to go to Church, no problem, o.k. to sit and home and stew in yer juices, no problem...

What irritates people, is if I start speaking in 12step speak on a *non* 12step board: "I know for me, today, I have to look at myself" hint hint... "I know that what's wrong with me is my own self-centered behavior, and that I need to take a look at that," hint hint. "I know that today I'm not a bad person, just a sick person getting better!!!"" hint hint...

It's just cute 12step speak, and people are real aware of the superiority implied in it's lingo: "we few, we humble, we "good."


Yawn....

[tptptp]

its helped billions.

I hope thats a joke. There's not even 7 billion people on earth.....slightly over 300 million in America. I don't even know if there's 2 or more billion in civilized countries that even have these programs. That's just such a baseless comment, c'mon.

[greenfox]

I go there, the way non-believers go to church: to have a place to go...and I try to talk people out of sponsoring them, but honestly, they like me...but I do try really hard, not to use treatment center talk on here, since there is no statistical proof that AA or NA works any better than just plain "stoppin on your own..." And it is nauseating and non-sensical to people *not* in NA or AA...as it should be...

They did me some good by clapping all the time when I quit drinking, and by me making amends, I got my mother and sister back in my life... I don't believe in "god" or "higher poswer" or any of it, as it is *always* circular thinking: if u stay sober, u must be doing something right, when u slip, all of a sudden, people say" well, he must have been doing something wrong..."

It's o.k. to go there, no problem, o.k. to go to Church, no problem, o.k. to sit and home and stew in yer juices, no problem...

What irritates people, is if I start speaking in 12step speak on a *non* 12step board: "I know for me, today, I have to look at myself" hint hint... "I know that what's wrong with me is my own self-centered behavior, and that I need to take a look at that," hint hint. "I know that today I'm not a bad person, just a sick person getting better!!!"" hint hint...

It's just cute 12step speak, and people are real aware of the superiority implied in it's lingo: "we few, we humble, we "good."


Yawn....

You know what it really is? You're dead on with the circular thinking- there's no room outside it for anything else, and they get PISSED if you try to introduce linear logic to the conversation, LET ALONE my foxy kind of logic. You have no idea. :)

For example this "TASC" thing I was in (treatment altern. to street crime or whatever) :P :) you HAVE to go to these meetings, and they are LONG no cig' breaks or anything, and they are FIRST thing in the morning and to BOOT it's required so no one really wants to be there. If you're late by five minutes, you're out. If you're "out" twice, then you're OUT which means you're REALLY OUT because you can't complete probation without completing tasc. Fail tasc and you fail probation. Talk about "circular!" Anyways, to the point:'

You got all these people in there, it's not separated at all... alcoholics, crack heads (mostly) and the occasional h user or pill popper. When I went, I was one of two white kids- the rest were older people or black people (mostly black- not to be racists but it was) (( and they were quite fucked up)) so you've got these two white women consolers trying hard to even understand "black person morning mumble speak" (I'm not trying to sound like a racist dick it's just what it was- they were even like "what?!" or "speak up!") I think sometimes, after a while, they did it just to fuck with them,.... but whatever, anyways....

so at the beginning everyone's like, going around the room, you have to start with a "feeling" because it's a government building, they don't do the "God" thing... and sometimes they would just totally fuck it up. Every meetings the coun. would say "DON'T SAY GOOD- it's not a feeling- say happy or sad or whatever" they even had a chart for feelings. This is getting long- the point is, everyone still said "GOOD" despite it all, it pissed them off, MOST people there took it as a joke and tried their VERY HARDEST to fuck with these poor middle aged white ladies...

and it was just a disaster. I went every week to this government sponsored bullshit... and every week someone else would graduate, and I would ALWAYS go talk to the new gratuate - "ees" and as them what they planned to do ...

you wanna know the answer? :)

you already know-

?"I'm gonna go get FUCKED UP!"

or

"I've got a rock in my car, I'm gonna blaze... wanna come?"

or maybe even (rarely,)

"*****, I'm gonna go pop a TAC!" (yes, as in "tic-tac", referring, locally, to a name brand OC 40)
((if you ever come to cleveland and think you can speak ebonics, now you know,))!

SO ANYWAYS I think my whole point is that meetings, when they are forced, are total bullshit. You have to want help to get it. In the beginning believe it or not, I actually felt so bad for these ladies that I tried my hardest to take it seriously. I couldn't just sit there and be quiet while all these other people fucked with them- it prob. made me look like a tool but I don't care.

After awhile tho, I kind of just gave up and let it fly how it was gonna go... it was rough but I'm sure they were somewhat used to it. I've seen people get kicked out, even saw one dude get arrested (SIC!) in a meeting! THat's right, state whatevers came crashing thru the door and arrested this guy DURING a meeting for failing a drug test for cocaine. The counsolers were PISSED at that- they are supposed to wait until AFTER the meeting to arrest you (which I also saw PLENTY of.. that happened on your way out of the building if you fucked up,) there were always cops and marshals down at the door, waiting for certain people with pictures in hand. The probi. building is very fucked up.

So is cleveland. So is the drug war.

Oy vie.

peace.

sig,fik,
-=gf

[Duckfeet]

The trouble is, it become just more of the same old con: u learn right away, in yer first treatment center, or "group" to "emote" rather than to "think"... In other words, breaking down, weeping, saying how "hurt" u r, is a *good* thing, and being tough, using logic, reason, are all scorned...so people learn to do this, to cry easily, to couch all their *thoughts* in emotional language, and to give the "leader" or "counseler" what they want...which is basically emotionalism combined with weakness...then u'll get a hug afterwords...

Any contradictions to this will be seen as "denial" or "wanting to do it "your" way, or "fear..." since they learn in Counseling 101 to accuse the guys of *fear* if they don't do what they want them to do...

Acceptance, or compliance, is always seen as correct, and what it reallly is, is a sort of glorification of a simpering, old-fashioned love of what used to be called "effeminate" traits, and I find them somewhat nauseating, but like any good convict, I adapted quickly, and learned to talk the talk, and weep when necessary...to me--and to others, perhaps--it became a form of "method acting," where I could call on events in my past, to show the desired emotional state...

Tiring really, and takes away from the limited good that Alcoholics Anonymous really did provide to *some* hardcore lastgasp alcohlics, who really *did* need to see their alcoholism in honest ways, *did* need to do an honest inventory of their faults, and *did* need to make amends...and *did* get better, like I did...

But I'm cursed/blessed with a love of books, so I actually read lots about the history of AA, and what it really was, and hoped to be...*no*t what treatment centers, and the proliferation of all the other 12 step groups and counselers and judges turned it into...so I know it's on it's way out...just a joke without a punchline...

[OxyContinuously]

I dunno who said it or what, but i was going to add somehing to the bupe discussion, regarding dosages and such..

I was talking to Greenfox the other day, and we both agree that bupe is a godsend--works very well for what it is supposed to do, and at least in my case (everyone's mileage varies; Duck I know u didn't have much luck with the 'tex bro) I even got a nice "high" off of it...

But regarding dose, I don't know really. SOme people do very well with "high-dose" bupe ie: 16 or more milligrams per day, up to 32, I believe being the highest...And other people do better with the "less is more" mentality, keeping their daily intake to below 16mg...

With me, I found that 16 was too much, shit even *8* made me feel a little queasy...So what worked well for me was 4mg or so (sometimes 6 if i felt like it) snorted twice a day or so...maybe even 6mg in the morn. and 2mg at night....I found that bupe really had legs and there was no need to re-dose like I would w/ oxy or dope, or phine, et al...SOmething I had to get used to, though, was that speedy edge that bupe gave me...That abated after a while (maybe I got used to it) but yeah, 8mg would be the absolute MAX I would really care to do in a day...so that's my experience. And important to note that 6mg or 8mg not only kept WD at bay (as in non-existant) but i got quite high as well. Hell, I'm not complaining!

later

oxy

[greenfox]

I dunno who said it or what, but i was going to add somehing to the bupe discussion, regarding dosages and such..

I was talking to Greenfox the other day, and we both agree that bupe is a godsend--works very well for what it is supposed to do, and at least in my case (everyone's mileage varies; Duck I know u didn't have much luck with the 'tex bro) I even got a nice "high" off of it...

But regarding dose, I don't know really. SOme people do very well with "high-dose" bupe ie: 16 or more milligrams per day, up to 32, I believe being the highest...And other people do better with the "less is more" mentality, keeping their daily intake to below 16mg...

With me, I found that 16 was too much, shit even *8* made me feel a little queasy...So what worked well for me was 4mg or so (sometimes 6 if i felt like it) snorted twice a day or so...maybe even 6mg in the morn. and 2mg at night....I found that bupe really had legs and there was no need to re-dose like I would w/ oxy or dope, or phine, et al...SOmething I had to get used to, though, was that speedy edge that bupe gave me...That abated after a while (maybe I got used to it) but yeah, 8mg would be the absolute MAX I would really care to do in a day...so that's my experience. And important to note that 6mg or 8mg not only kept WD at bay (as in non-existant) but i got quite high as well. Hell, I'm not complaining!

later

oxy

Duck I wish I could quote you too, because I want to answer both posts here. Duck we will start with yours: :)

Yeah it's totally true, you have to enter into "group think" or you're not "Getting cured" - I have to quote one of my favorite authors, Dale Pendell, (Duck: I read a LOT too, you should check out Pendell's "Pharmako" series... maybe I can even find a link real quick:)

http://www.mercuryhouse.org/HTML/pendell.html

There you go. :) read some of that!!!

But anyways, to quote Pendell:

"The 12 step recovery can be a very good thing. There is often an outpouring of support and love in these groups. Sometimes, even if you don't have a problem, it can be liberating to step into one of these meetings and to feel the raw energy of love and common goodwill. However, as an "end all" solution, the 12 step process fails many of us; after all, there are some 'addicts' who would like to be 'out of addiction' without acquiring the additional label of being 'in recovery' "

True, true. Gotta love the bomb ass foxy authors. :D

That basically sums it up for me. The biggest thing I didn't like was attending my (required) AA meetings: some of these hard core drunk fuckers... you have to say "My name is Foxy and I'm an alcoholic"... they get RAW (sometimes) if you saw "My name is FOXY and I'm an addict" or worse yet "My name is Foxy and I'm an OPIATE addict!"

It just doesn't fly. I've been kicked out of meetings before. I always thought that it was supposed to be "anonymous" and "open-minded" but believe it or not there's a very VERY rigid way you HAVE to go about it, or you can get in some kind of serious shit. It kind of sucks, but it's the way it is.


And to Oxy: with the bupe thing...

I get several (strange) and *(unique) reactions to it. Let me list `em:

I'm on 16mgs.

Even if I've been dosing properly...

1) an 8mg pill first thing in the morning gets me high
2) I don't "ceiling" at 24-30mg. I find I can get continuously higher up until right around 40mg.
3) I can live- UNCOMFORTABLY- on 1/4 of an 8mg pill a day
4) I can live- PRETTY COMFORTABLY on 1/2 of an 8mg a day
5) I can live VERY COMFORTABLY on 2/3rds of an 8mg pill a day
6) If I fiend through my shit and I've been taking 1/2s and 1/4s for a while, when I get my script, an 8 FUCKS me up. I mean seriously-like I took a lot of morphine with a little bit of adderall.
7) Alcohol ALWAYS adds to it.
8) Red Bull adds to it if I drink a red bull when I'm a little sick- then take an 8
9) I never get much off median doses. In other words, I get REALLY fucked off 8mg, and SUPER fucked off 4 x 8mg. I never get much from TWO 8mgs (how strange is that?!?)
10) I can do OTHER opiates almost immediately after. I mean within 12 hours. If it's less than that, I get NOTHING. If it's more than 12 hours I get at least HALF the effect. If it's been over a day, I get 2/3rds the effect. If it's been over 48 hours, I always (and I mean *ALWAYS*!!!) get the full effect. ALWAYS.


FINALLY: Duck: if you want that book (since i'm not sending you drugs, LOL!) email me... I'll send it to you- free of charge. i think I have an extra copy somewhere and I know you would love reading it. :)

Peace.

sig,fik,
-=gf

[OxyContinuously]

GF^^^ I notice the same thing with RedBull also...theres some shit they sell near my house at 7-11; it's called "energizing" something or other, but the point is that it has "yerba mate" in it, and this also seems to make the bupe feel stronger.

Strong coffee (which I like also) does nothing to the bupe--- that just makes bupe, and strong coffee, lol.

I found that the grapefruit juice trick works w/ bupe as well (u know a 16oz bottle of ruby red or the white kind 45 mins before u take the bupe) and it potentiates it nicely.

marijuana, obviously, can never go wrong and goes pretty well w/ bupe.

[greenfox]

GF^^^ I notice the same thing with RedBull also...theres some shit they sell near my house at 7-11; it's called "energizing" something or other, but the point is that it has "yerba mate" in it, and this also seems to make the bupe feel stronger.

Strong coffee (which I like also) does nothing to the bupe--- that just makes bupe, and strong coffee, lol.

I found that the grapefruit juice trick works w/ bupe as well (u know a 16oz bottle of ruby red or the white kind 45 mins before u take the bupe) and it potentiates it nicely.

marijuana, obviously, can never go wrong and goes pretty well w/ bupe.


Funny and strange you should mention the chiba. After a bowl, I find the cottonmouth... I don't know, it's weird.... it... kind of lets it... "seep" in. Like, after a bowl, I can actually FEEL the pharmicutical goodness seep through my mouth. I mean actually FEEL it seeping in. Very strange.

sig,fik,
-=gf

[Crow]

You must have missed crow's long post, right above me^^^^^^saying he was sorry: u get a lot more slack than you know on here, Mikell, so lighten up on people: this ain't a "recovery" forum....take yer own damn inventory, as seems to me *you're* the one being a "doosh" now.... if yer gonna deal out stock treatment center 12 step silliness, u better be prepared once in a while for people who get sick of it....it's not what u *do* to people, it's the superior tone u use: we aren't idiots: even tho u pretend to talk about yerself, like any good meeting goer, u don't realize yet how that crap comes across on here...I"d reread *all* the posts in a thread before u take someone to task....

A little late, but thanks for the back up Duck, you're the man. You summed up what I was trying to say, but I couldn't really spit it out properly.

There's always room on a handy couch here, ever come through New York? You got a place to stay if you ever need a vacation from all that west coast sun. Can get a little grey over here, but the powder makes it all worth while, in my humble opinion.

Oh and Mikell, no harm done here, just please try to understand where us "dumb" junkies are coming from. Of course I have a needle fetish, I'm the first one to admit it. Hell, I've shot everything you can (or can't, for that matter) fit in a rig. Maybe thats the difference between us, I dunno.

[Indy]

I'd kill for some subs right now. But i guess if you don't increase your dose of DOC like me, you eventually have to pay the price to lower tolerance. And it's a lot better when you "turn yourself in" than if you just keep going till you're forced into w/d's.

[greenfox]

I'd kill for some subs right now. But i guess if you don't increase your dose of DOC like me, you eventually have to pay the price to lower tolerance. And it's a lot better when you "turn yourself in" than if you just keep going till you're forced into w/d's.

See that's why I'm all about the subs....

they allow me to get low... when I want to

I don't HAVE to worry about the dope sickness or the absolute wretched nonsense bullshit that goes with it. When my "dudes" are fiending, SWIM can MAKE 20.00 a POP on these little orange things.

It ain't out of trying to fuck these guys over: it's a "mercy fuck" seeing as they'd do (and HAVE done) the same to SWIM when HE was fox'in.

Take it easy.

sig,fik,
-=gf

[Inspektahdek]

Duck I wish I could quote you too, because I want to answer both posts here. Duck we will start with yours: :)

Yeah it's totally true, you have to enter into "group think" or you're not "Getting cured" - I have to quote one of my favorite authors, Dale Pendell, (Duck: I read a LOT too, you should check out Pendell's "Pharmako" series... maybe I can even find a link real quick:)

http://www.mercuryhouse.org/HTML/pendell.html

There you go. :) read some of that!!!

But anyways, to quote Pendell:

"The 12 step recovery can be a very good thing. There is often an outpouring of support and love in these groups. Sometimes, even if you don't have a problem, it can be liberating to step into one of these meetings and to feel the raw energy of love and common goodwill. However, as an "end all" solution, the 12 step process fails many of us; after all, there are some 'addicts' who would like to be 'out of addiction' without acquiring the additional label of being 'in recovery' "

True, true. Gotta love the bomb ass foxy authors. :D

That basically sums it up for me. The biggest thing I didn't like was attending my (required) AA meetings: some of these hard core drunk fuckers... you have to say "My name is Foxy and I'm an alcoholic"... they get RAW (sometimes) if you saw "My name is FOXY and I'm an addict" or worse yet "My name is Foxy and I'm an OPIATE addict!"

It just doesn't fly. I've been kicked out of meetings before. I always thought that it was supposed to be "anonymous" and "open-minded" but believe it or not there's a very VERY rigid way you HAVE to go about it, or you can get in some kind of serious shit. It kind of sucks, but it's the way it is.


And to Oxy: with the bupe thing...

I get several (strange) and *(unique) reactions to it. Let me list `em:

I'm on 16mgs.

Even if I've been dosing properly...

1) an 8mg pill first thing in the morning gets me high
2) I don't "ceiling" at 24-30mg. I find I can get continuously higher up until right around 40mg.
3) I can live- UNCOMFORTABLY- on 1/4 of an 8mg pill a day
4) I can live- PRETTY COMFORTABLY on 1/2 of an 8mg a day
5) I can live VERY COMFORTABLY on 2/3rds of an 8mg pill a day
6) If I fiend through my shit and I've been taking 1/2s and 1/4s for a while, when I get my script, an 8 FUCKS me up. I mean seriously-like I took a lot of morphine with a little bit of adderall.
7) Alcohol ALWAYS adds to it.
8) Red Bull adds to it if I drink a red bull when I'm a little sick- then take an 8
9) I never get much off median doses. In other words, I get REALLY fucked off 8mg, and SUPER fucked off 4 x 8mg. I never get much from TWO 8mgs (how strange is that?!?)
10) I can do OTHER opiates almost immediately after. I mean within 12 hours. If it's less than that, I get NOTHING. If it's more than 12 hours I get at least HALF the effect. If it's been over a day, I get 2/3rds the effect. If it's been over 48 hours, I always (and I mean *ALWAYS*!!!) get the full effect. ALWAYS.


FINALLY: Duck: if you want that book (since i'm not sending you drugs, LOL!) email me... I'll send it to you- free of charge. i think I have an extra copy somewhere and I know you would love reading it. :)

Peace.

sig,fik,
-=gf




Kind of humorous that you get fucked on an 8 or even more at higher doses, because I never get fucked on bupe and I know foxy, that you have a tolerance too so that's pretty surprising. I know that it doesn't take much bupe to get me "well" as in not sick from w/d and I was orignally scripted 32mgs so I've been on high doses as well but never felt "buzzed" but maybe 2 times. What do you mean by effects, wait a minute, I'm reading your post again and it says it feels like high dose morphine with small amphetamine effects, nice! Out of curiosity what is your tolerance for one time doses of H, oxy, and another opiate if u do more than those so I can get an idea of comparison. Thx

Ooh, also do u take suboxone or subutex?

-dek

[Inspektahdek]

See that's why I'm all about the subs....

they allow me to get low... when I want to

I don't HAVE to worry about the dope sickness or the absolute wretched nonsense bullshit that goes with it. When my "dudes" are fiending, SWIM can MAKE 20.00 a POP on these little orange things.

It ain't out of trying to fuck these guys over: it's a "mercy fuck" seeing as they'd do (and HAVE done) the same to SWIM when HE was fox'in.

Take it easy.

sig,fik,
-=gf

sorry for double post, is there a way to do a multi-quote after you've orignally posted? Can't quite grasp how to do that if it's possible? moddies?

anyways, I can make a pretty euro if I know people are in need or I'm strapped for currency. I try not to be an asshole about it or if I don't know the people I'm charging roughly about what you are charging for it, it doesn't bother me too much, I give my friends' good prices but I can charge about what you are charging for acquaintances or people I don't know. Bupe comes in handy when I'm broke as well because I've been stockpiling since I use bupe as anti-w/d and never have maintained on it due to cravings, much like duck, I still get massive cravings, just takes away the physical part of w/d. I need to get on methadone because I know that blocks my cravings as well......... but then I'll be on "done" ahhh why can't a junky get a break on life? argh :D

[mikells43]

when it comes down to it, no one is cured forever from addiction. when in active addiction u are a prisionor of ur own mind. denyal is thick, theres ways to recovery. prehaps u aren't even an addict u are just dependent on drugs. u can just walk away, id give all the money i had in my pocket to be one of those lucky ones that can just walk away. sub diversion here is a big prob.

[Inspektahdek]

when it comes down to it, no one is cured forever from addiction. when in active addiction u are a prisionor of ur own mind. denyal is thick, theres ways to recovery. prehaps u aren't even an addict u are just dependent on drugs. u can just walk away, id give all the money i had in my pocket to be one of those lucky ones that can just walk away. sub diversion here is a big prob.

Wow, profoundly stated mike, I wish I were of this breed as well, I'd be much more personally financed.

[mikells43]

now that i have been clean and remaining to stay clean money is good. im not rich but im never lacking in funds which is a big help on stress too

[Inspektahdek]

the thread wouldn't allow me to edit because the other post I made had expired on time so here's an addition to my second to last post----->

EDIT: Hey foxy, I read that you don't find a ceiling dose until around 40mg or more. How do you compare a 32 mg dose to a 40 mg dose? Is there a significant difference? The most I've ever done is 32mg 4 times a day every 6-8 hours. I figured all ceilings are averaged at a median dose bupe being 32mg for most people but I've also read that some people ceiling at 24mgs but I guess that's not the case. If you could, just explain how it differs with the extra 8mg and how do you dose? 8mg at a time or 16 at a time, etc? I wish bupe didn't have a ceiling, because I'd prob abuse the hell out of it, but then again, it's prob a good thing for me since it contains a ceiling dose. lol I know definitely that codeine has a 400mg ceiling because even at that dose I feel nothing and going beyond that dose, I get a scratch histamine fever like nothing other of ALL OPIATES/OPIOIDS. There's no other histamine reaction than taking alot of codeine, even morphine doesn't hold a candle to the scratching I get on codeine. I've bled in various spots on the body from codeine histamine reaction. ;)

[Duckfeet]

Me too, on the codeine...nothing else seems to do that...most of'em made me scratch a little at one time, but not anymore: I forget what that's even like...and yeah, I really hoped for subs, but I had such bad luck with'em, and have to much negative, and know what a fierce drug they are to detox off of...kind of like methadone, where u think u aren't feeling anything at all after a while...but stop taking'em, then u find out...


the thread wouldn't allow me to edit because the other post I made had expired on time so here's an addition to my second to last post----->

EDIT: Hey foxy, I read that you don't find a ceiling dose until around 40mg or more. How do you compare a 32 mg dose to a 40 mg dose? Is there a significant difference? The most I've ever done is 32mg 4 times a day every 6-8 hours. I figured all ceilings are averaged at a median dose bupe being 32mg for most people but I've also read that some people ceiling at 24mgs but I guess that's not the case. If you could, just explain how it differs with the extra 8mg and how do you dose? 8mg at a time or 16 at a time, etc? I wish bupe didn't have a ceiling, because I'd prob abuse the hell out of it, but then again, it's prob a good thing for me since it contains a ceiling dose. lol I know definitely that codeine has a 400mg ceiling because even at that dose I feel nothing and going beyond that dose, I get a scratch histamine fever like nothing other of ALL OPIATES/OPIOIDS. There's no other histamine reaction than taking alot of codeine, even morphine doesn't hold a candle to the scratching I get on codeine. I've bled in various spots on the body from codeine histamine reaction. ;)

[greenfox]

Kind of humorous that you get fucked on an 8 or even more at higher doses, because I never get fucked on bupe and I know foxy, that you have a tolerance too so that's pretty surprising. I know that it doesn't take much bupe to get me "well" as in not sick from w/d and I was orignally scripted 32mgs so I've been on high doses as well but never felt "buzzed" but maybe 2 times. What do you mean by effects, wait a minute, I'm reading your post again and it says it feels like high dose morphine with small amphetamine effects, nice! Out of curiosity what is your tolerance for one time doses of H, oxy, and another opiate if u do more than those so I can get an idea of comparison. Thx

Ooh, also do u take suboxone or subutex?

-dek


OK you're prob. not going to BELIEVE me but that's ok....

H:

I can spend 100.00 easy (we're talking a little over a quarter of an 1/8 ball in weight for a buck) and I can do it in a sitting- no problem- with no sub's (SUB-ox-ONE btw) and before you say it: NO it ain't weak. My dude od'd off 10.00's worth. No shit, no kidding, no BS, no green foxy tails. Blue, spazzing, and on the floor off ten bux. I like to START with a 50 in the first shot; do another 50 w/in 20 minutes (just to be SURE, right?) ... but ANYWAYS we're talking super-brown shots, here. We're talking CHUNKY powdery dope, for sure.

[Duckfeet]

Yer just a tuff boy, what can I say ;-)

[Duckfeet]

Thanks GF, I'm checking out his stuff right now...but I am a *wizard* online interlibrary loan aficionado, so if they've got it, and they usually do, I can get it...thanks for offer...I'm doing a quick study of him right now...I'm in the middle of several books, two on atheism, two on linux, and one on Mac...I need some *light* reading....;-)

Thanks for tip tho...

Only book I wanted of his is his conversations w/Norman O. Brown...now *that's* cool...nah, the plant stuff...I'll leave that to u '-)



<snip>

FINALLY: Duck: if you want that book (since i'm not sending you drugs, LOL!) email me... I'll send it to you- free of charge. i think I have an extra copy somewhere and I know you would love reading it. :)

Peace.

sig,fik,
-=gf

[mikells43]

subutex gives me some mild scrotal itch esp at nite.

[greenfox]

Thanks GF, I'm checking out his stuff right now...but I am a *wizard* online interlibrary loan aficionado, so if they've got it, and they usually do, I can get it...thanks for offer...I'm doing a quick study of him right now...I'm in the middle of several books, two on atheism, two on linux, and one on Mac...I need some *light* reading....;-)

Thanks for tip tho...

Only book I wanted of his is his conversations w/Norman O. Brown...now *that's* cool...nah, the plant stuff...I'll leave that to u '-)

OK dude seriously since it's like THAT...

um...

GET THIS FUCKING BOOK!

But I warn you...

you need to start out with "Pharmako/Poeia"... it's the first book. It's called "Plant powers, poisons, and herbcraft".... it covers 3 of the 5 mandala catagories... (if I remember, "Inebriatia" (alcohol), "Thanatopathia" (cig's and such), and "Euphorica" (opiates),) the SECOND book is mostly and all about "Excitiantia" (stimulants) and the last book Pharmako/Gnosis is all about.. umm "Phantastica" (tryptamines) ... it's a very good read. I promise you that you will not be let down- in the least.

Now there's some cross catagories... for example the FIRST book crosses "PhantasticA" with "Euphorica" and you get WEED...

There's all kinds of other crosses. I wish I had his chart, it shows EVERYTHING. This guy is LITERALLY a fucking brilliant genius. I can't emphasize that enough.

You really just need to check it out.

The first book esp. It talks about "The nature of the poison path" (i.e. "the life") and it also talks about "Luck", "plant powers and allies", etc, etc.

It's really really good.

Check it out. Seriously.

sig,fik,
-=gf

[Duckfeet]

GF: u gotta remember who yer dealing with: I'm like *seriously* burnt out, and people like Gary Snyder, and Baba Ram Dass, and Mayer Baba and just about anybody who looks for any kind of magic, or otherworldly magic, or joy and beauty in being green and anything that even *hints* at altruistic Berkeley NW Calif/Sierra thinking that I used to just love...now kind of leaves me a bit cold...I'm like Kerouac when he came *down* off the mountain, and got some wine, and realized he really wasn't like his pal, Snyder, but just a burntout drunk...

u want to learn about me, see *Naked* the flick w/David Thewliss...and I"m bright and my veins and brain are both shot, and tend to think a fix of heroin trumps all lit, and my favorite quote is the twisted second law of thermodynamics which all non-physics types love, and physics types wish had never been stated:

You can't win,
You can't break even,
You can't get out of the game....


I suspect u still look for something that I believe no longer exists, and yer better off staying that way...

I like you, tho, just the way you are...it's just me, and when I started reading the book reports on this boy, I realized it was not what jaded curmudgeon like me enjoys...right?

[greenfox]

GF: u gotta remember who yer dealing with: I'm like *seriously* burnt out, and people like Gary Snyder, and Baba Ram Dass, and Mayer Baba and just about anybody who looks for any kind of magic, or otherworldly magic, or joy and beauty in being green and anything that even *hints* at altruistic Berkeley NW Calif/Sierra thinking that I used to just love...now kind of leaves me a bit cold...I'm like Kerouac when he came *down* off the mountain, and got some wine, and realized he really wasn't like his pal, Snyder, but just a burntout drunk...

u want to learn about me, see *Naked* the flick w/David Thewliss...and I"m bright and my veins and brain are both shot, and tend to think a fix of heroin trumps all lit, and my favorite quote is the twisted second law of thermodynamics which all non-physics types love, and physics types wish had never been stated:

You can't win,
You can't break even,
You can't get out of the game....


I suspect u still look for something that I believe no longer exists, and yer better off staying that way...

I like you, tho, just the way you are...it's just me, and when I started reading the book reports on this boy, I realized it was not what jaded curmudgeon like me enjoys...right?

Actually Duck, it's a little more matter-of-fact than that. Pendell isn't some stupid tool. He knows the what's what. He really really does. I STILL advise this as an important read. I'll tell you what: you read it and DON'T like it, I'll make it up to you in KIND. Seriously. I know for a fact that you would totally dig this book. He covers ALL drugs in a very scientific AND english-like poetic way. He's very "this is this" about it. He talks about allies and such. Let me give you an example (probably the worst one out of the whole book,) but check this out, it's about Salvia D.:

--------------------

Salvia divinorum Common names:
Diviner's sage, ska Pastora, hojas de la Pastora, seer's sage, la Maria.
The "Just This" Plant. The "Emptiness" plant.Related species:
Salvia divinorum contains a diterpene, salvinorin. Some Coleus species are rumored to contain similar compounds, but this is still unconfirmed (bioassay reports are mostly negative). Salvia splendens contains salviarin and splendidin, both diterpenes, and we should expect more from other species. No psychotropic activity has been reported for those but that does not close the case--I heard background whispers of "placebo effect" for years when talking about the powers of dried ska Pastora leaves!
Salvia sonomensis contains a camphorlike substance that is a mild stimulant when smoked. Salvia officinalis contains thujone, constituting in some varieties over fifty percent of the essential oil.
But those plants don't really have anything to do with me.True. Taxonomy:
A true sage, like cooking sage. Mint family. There are a thousand species in the genus, and five hundred species in the Neotropical subgenus Calosphace, to which Salvia divinorum belongs. Many temperate Salvia spp. are adapted to xeric conditions, such as the black sage (Salvia mellifera), white sage (Salvia apiana) and purple sage (Salvia leucophylla) of the California chaparral. Salvia divinorum is a hydrophyte.
The Plant:
Square-stemmed, winged margins, the stems hollow and succulent. The stems will grow to over eight feet if supported. Commonly they fall over, rooting where they fall. Axillary branches easily sprout from the nodes. The plant flowers when the days shorten: long graceful racemes of fragrant white flowers, the calyces deep lavender. I sprinkle the flowers into salads.
The Ally:
She can be shy. Sometimes she has to get to know you for a while, before she will come out and say hello. But once she appears, are there any who are more direct?
Part Used:
The leaves. The stems can be juiced.
How Taken: The Path of Leaves:
Thirteen pair of leaves, the stems all facing the same direction, are rolled into a cigar and eaten. That is the traditional way, the way of the Keepers of the Plant, the Mazatecs. The leaves are used the same way mushrooms are used, with candles (which are later put out), prayers, and singing. The ceremony is performed at night, in a darkened room. The darker the better. And the quieter the better: both light and noise have a way of dissipating the experience.
It is not uncommon for the Mazatecs to wash the leaves down with a swig of tequila. The tequila cleanses the palate and may aid in the final absorption.
It lights up the mouth like a rainbow,
it's like a pastel sunrise breaking in the east.There are strict taboos to keep for several days after eating the sacred leaves, such as not having any sexual contacts. It is also important to be ritually mindful when collecting the leaves, and also in cleaning up after the ceremony. Chemistry:
Unknown until recently, and still far from understood. In 1982, Alfredo Ortega and his associates isolated a bicyclic diterpene, C23 H28O8, from material gathered in Oaxaca and named it salvinorin. Another group, led by Leander Valdes at the University of Michigan, independently isolated the same compound and named it divinorum. Because Ortega published first, the name salvinorin has precedence. Neither author tested salvinorin for human activity, but recent tests by Daniel Siebert and others, myself included, have proved the psychoactivity of salvinorin beyond further doubt.
Other compounds in the fresh leaves may act synergistically in creating the extraordinary and variable effects of this plant, perhaps by inhibiting the lytic action of an enzyme or of the digestive juices.
The Plant:
seer's sage
truth sage
dream sage
ghost sage
lizard sage
mouse sage
soft-footed sage
cymbals sage
roller coaster sage
rocket sage
wake-up sage
it's-like-a-dance sage
silver fox sage
bare light bulb sage
waterfall sageEffects:
It's like a mirror with no frame: some don't see it at all; some do, but don't like what they see. It's like cat paws, soft cat paws pressing, or like a bunch of bird tongues lapping the mind. Or like tiny fingers, the way ivy fingers reach out to climb a wall . . .Some say it is a sensual and a tactile thing. Some say it's about temporality and dimensionality--that it's about time travel. Some say it's about the Root Energy Network, or that it is about becoming a plant. "Bird tongues lapping the mind." We timed them: they hit four or five times per second. It may be the theta rhythm.How Taken: The Bridge of Smoke:
The dried leaves may be smoked. A large-bowled pipe, like a tobacco pipe, is about right. Rolled cigarettes are less satisfactory, because it is difficult to get a deep lungful of the smoke. Hold the smoke in. One to three lungfuls are enough. Five or six small tokes do not produce the same effect as one large inhalation. The reasons for this are not clear. Perhaps the brain responds to salvinorin within seconds, with neurochemical defenses.
The best technique is to use the Val Salva maneuver, beginning by emptying the lungs of air and then layering the smoke until the lungs are completely full. Then hold the smoke in as long as you can. Release gently.
The Ally: Bridge of Smoke:
Frequently people experience little effect from the leaves in their first meetings. The power of the leaves seems to slowly build toward a climax with successive ingestions. Diaz was the first to comment in print on this phenomenon. He drank the juice of the fresh leaves six times and noticed an "increased awareness of the plant's effects" each time.
Contrarily, sometimes the ally rolls over and crushes a person without warning, first visit. And a few people seem obdurately immune.
Effects: The Bridge of Smoke:
Over a period of several weeks, everything around me gradually became more intelligent.Pharmacology:
Completely unknown. Salvia divinorum represents an entirely new class of entheogen. A Novascreen receptor site screening sponsored by David Nichols discovered no binding inhibition for the forty reference compounds tested, covering all major known receptors. Salvia divinorum contains no alkaloids. In screening plants for psychoactivity, plants that do not contain alkaloids are routinely thrown away. Clearly that approach is too hasty.
Because of the quantity of material that must be ingested for diviner's sage to be fully active, it occurred to me in a light moment that any plant would be entheogenic if one ate twenty-six whole leaves at a sitting. That's a joke, but you can't really get the point until you eat diviner's sage yourself.
It is bitter, my brothers.Effects, Physical:
Some people experience hyperthermia, a warming of the body. Nausea is rare, though by the eighth swallow of the leaves the gag reflex becomes overwhelming. Still, except for the swallowing part, almost nobody gets sick at the stomach. The Plant:
It's faster than the mushrooms, and older.An extremely rare cultigen, found only at a few locations in Oaxaca. There are specimens in botanical gardens, and in a few private collections, but lack of genetic diversity is a concern. The plant is endangered by the forces of imperialistic religion, and has been for four hundred years, possibly longer.
Her real name must not be told--
Her real name is closer to Medusa than to Mary.
"They came with crosses--
they came to drag us
from our huts, from our beds,
the soldiers that serve the priests." en el nombre del Padre
en el nombre del Hijo
en el nombre de Espirito Santo
The Ally:
Consciousness has to do with energy and light. It is really very simple. Neither animals nor people have consciousness. It is plants that have consciousness. Animals get consciousness by eating plants. We like to walk around sometimes, and to see new places.
We like some of those animal things, like mating.
Sometimes we get curious
to see what it is like to program computers.The Plant:
This plant is the great secret of our tradition. Not secret anymore!Few have heard of it. Fewer know what it looks like. Fewer still have ever met the sagely ally, yet the alliance forms invisible links wherever it goes, across continents and across oceans. The Ally blesses some, eludes others. That such an ordinary looking plant, kind of succulent and without any alkaloids, can be as subtle and effective as the seer's sage is, causes one to wonder about other green plants--that perhaps there are other such, sisters to this sage, waiting for someone to give them the time and attention they deserve.
People ask, "If it's really so good, why is it so obscure, why haven't more people heard of it?" The answer partly has to do with history, and partly with intention, and perhaps partly with the intrinsic nature of the plant's effects.
First off, the plant is not at all obscure to her people. They know her and love her, or know her and don't love her (some think the plant devilish). Most of our ("our" meaning Western literate culture) current knowledge about Ska Pastora can be traced back to the visit of Gordon Wasson and Albert Hofmann to Maria Sabina. Most of "our" plants are also from this transmission. Several particulars of the Wasson/Hofmann/Sabina meeting account for some of the plant's recessive reputation. For one, Maria Sabina's primary ally was the mushroom: she only used the little leaves when the children were out of season. But there are other curanderos who prefer the leaves to the mushrooms. Don Alejandro says that taking the mushrooms too often "will make you crazy," but that the Virgin, who speaks through the leaves, is more gentle.
Second, when Hofmann returned to his laboratory at Sandoz Pharmaceuticals in Basel, he had brought some juice from the Salvia leaves back with him, "preserved in alcohol." When this juice was deemed by self-experiment no longer to be active, Hofmann abandoned his intention to analyze the juice for its psychoactive principle(s). Hofmann reported that the unknown active ingredient must be unstable. This belief was incorrect but tended to inhibit further research for some years. My own reports on the effectiveness of smoking the dried leaves were dismissed by a number of my colleagues.
On the matter of intention, to quote Lao Tzu: "Those who speak do not know, those who know do not speak." Most sage people would rather not have their beloved ally spotlighted, or scheduled, or even much heard of or spoken about.
"This is the sneaky one.
We caught all the others,
but we couldn't catch
this one--
this one was too subtle.
We've been after this plant
for almost five hundred years."Lastly, I think that some of the plant's obscurity is intrinsic and will endure. How many really want to see? Most people are after the side effects, and in the matter of sensual side effects the little leaves are indeed a little sister to such a giant as Cannabis. But just because the plant is not a party-goer, is not harmful, and is not abused anywhere in the known world does not mean that it would not be persecuted by those who rule by fear, if they knew of its existence. So in summation we will reiterate the early assessments of the plant and agree that it is a minor psychtropic of well-deserved obscurity.
Now say "mum."Mum. The Ally:
This plant has a sense of humor!
The Plant:
garden green sage
bitter bitter sage
compost sage
sweet smoke sage
riverbank sage
shade-leaf sage
crenate-leafed sage
come-to-me sage
get-the-willies sage
whispering sage
get well sage
get fooled sage
candle-in-a-wind sage
nobody knows it sageThe Ally:
It is when you are really stuck, when you really don't know what to do, when you are nearing the edge of funk and self-destruction, that the leaves are the most powerful and the most precise. And symmetrically, for one not seeking engagement, for one seeking diversion, the plant is not much fun. Outside of her sacred context, la Pastora has surprisingly little to offer. It's not a spectator drug.Indeed. History:
It seems likely that ska Pastora was once much more widespread than it is today. Cultigens generally have long histories, and Salvia divinorum is probably no exception. What is not clear is whether the decline of the plant began with the Spanish Conquest, or whether it was already in decline, and, if so, if the reasons were religious or political, or something else.
Gordon Wasson speculated that Salvia divinorum was the pipilzintzintli , the "Noble Prince" mentioned in Aztec codices. One problem with this identification is that pipilzintzintli was said to have both male and female varieties while our ska Pastora is, botanically speaking, perfect. The Aztecs were skilled botanists and surely knew the difference between male flowers and female flowers. But it is also possible that the reference to gender is metaphorical, relating to nonanatomical properties of the plant, rather than to dioeciousness. There are some known examples of such use of gender, so Wasson may indeed be correct. It would be extraordinary if a plant of the power and stature of ska Pastora were not well known to the Aztecs.
The Ally:
Questing for the muse's spring, up some cold canyon,
stormdrain, up bloodvessels, canyonwalls of
flesh, rhythms surging in the darkness--
the home of the leaves, their nest within
the soul: even consciousness needs a soul. The plants
have consciousness, but no souls. For some of them,
that isn't enough.How Taken: The Path of Leaves:
Six to ten or more leaves are chewed into a bolus and kept in the cheeks. The absorption is through the buccal membranes. Siebert's experiments (Siebert 1994) with the juice of the leaves demonstrate conclusively that most, if not all, of the power of the leaves is deactivated in the stomach. In Siebert's experiments, those who swallowed the juice quickly and then rinsed out their mouths with water experienced no entheogenic effects, while the group that simply kept the juice in their mouths and never swallowed it were all affected strongly. I still prefer chewing and swallowing, if only from a sense of tidiness and tradition. Chewing with your cheeks full keeps the material in motion and insures that all parts of the mucosa are constantly bathed with sage leaf. More than once it has seemed to us that it is the stems, those chewy, chewy stems, that finally push it all over the edge.
One intrepid researcher called Salvia divinorum "the best-tasting psychedelic plant he'd ever eaten." Good point.
Effects:
The effects are different, depending on how the plant is ingested, on whether you meet the ally on the Path of Leaves or by crossing the Bridge of Smoke. And also depending on whether the plant has accepted you. That's metaphorical. Or is it? What neurochemical explanation could account for a threshold that, once breached, will still be open a year later, with no exposure to the plant intervening? Besides, neurochemical explanations are also metaphorical.
The plant is self-concentrating.
Your body is the alembic.Smoking the dried leaves produces immediate effect. The effect of eating fresh material, while slower to come on, is a deeper and more sustained experience, often with strikingly colored visuals. Drinking tea made from dried leaves falls somewhere in between. (Salvinorin is practicably insoluable in water. The best way to "ingest" dried leaves is to soften them with some hot water, then keep the leaves in the cheeks just as with fresh material.) Note that while the dosage by ingestion is ten to thirty leaves, the smoking dose amounts to one or two leaves.
It's the immediacy, the seamless immediacy . . .
sometimes it's like it doesn't do much
of anything at all, but how many plants
do nothing with such clarity!The Plant:
There are rumors that the seer's sage may grow wild on some of the less accessible plateaus in Oaxaca, but this is unconfirmed. Her people grow the plant beneath coffee trees, or along streams in ravines. They reportedly do not grow it next to their homes. at night, it might envelop the house . . .The plant is very patient. The Ally:
She has many epiphanies. Not all of them are shy, and not all of them are "she." One person encountered the Ally as a giant(an immeasurably ancient giant wearing a belt of human skulls. The giant looked directly at this person. The giant wanted to know why he had been summoned. The giant did not want a trivial answer.
The Plant:
checkerboard sage
paisley sage
amazing sage
calico ribbon sage
vortex sage
owl sage
shape-shifting sage
skin-walking sage
who-are-you? sage
something-is-moving sage
get serious sage
look-we-have-come-through sage
on your own sage
she's leaving home sage
metate sageClass:
Existentia. Ska Pastora is not a hallucinogen. That is not to say that it does not share some of the characteristics of class phantastica, it does. But there are also differences. The "true" hallucinogens all act on the 5-HT2 receptors. While the receptors of diviner's sage have not been discovered, the experiential evidence points to some new receptor, or to some holographic inundation of mind. And while many hallucinogens will help one's golf game (or, as Dock Ellis proved, one's major league pitching), a certain muscular discoordination accompanies the sage inebriation.
On the Pharmako/Poeia mandala, I put the little leaves on the path between phantastica and inebriantia, and name itexistentia . By existentia, I do not mean anything Cartesian, nor even David Bohm's separate-from-self implicate order, but mean that which precedes essence.
It's a personal thing. Existence.
If you can just stop thinking about it.Salvia divinorum is what you get by crossing an entheogen with an atheist. Effects:
It's not like being high, it's more like being practical.
Correspondences:
Activity Domestic Affairs Animal Uroboros Archetype Fortune Teller Art Form Lyric Poetry Bodily Function Circulation Body Part Mouth Buddha Realm Prajna Bhumi Color Cobalt Blue Cosmic Entity Singularity Crutch For Indecision Dimension Fractal Discipline Augury Element World-Stuff Form of Energy Windmill Form of Ignorance Complacency Gemstone Tourmaline Geometry Topology God The Mother of GodThe Plant:
In all of our Pharmako/Poeia, this plant is the hidden pearl. Poets, like vintners, love such surprises, and seek them out beyond their better known brothers and sisters: an unknown poet found in a faded chapbook with light in his verses, an obscure vintage the reviewers missed, dust-covered, but filled with mouthfuls of delight. The little leaves, hiding off in the mountains, have successfully avoided the front pages for four centuries.
A Taoist sage, in another range of mountains, after many years of studying the secrets of alchemy with his master, feeling fully accomplished, descended the mountain to move into the world. When evening approached, he stopped at an inn. The people at the inn marveled at the light that seemed to hover about him--a sort of magical glow. The sage was chagrined, realizing that his studies were only half completed, and returned immediately to his teacher.To visit the hojas de la Pastora is to visit an oracle, and she should be approached with the same reverence. Caravans of gold, threading their way
from Sardis to DelphiWhy would someone want to consult an oracle? Why would someone seek a vision? Or it's like talking to a therapist, to a counselor--the leaves are like the kalyanamitra, the spiritual friend. They can tell you things. Or make you eat your words.It is difficult to speak.

[greenfox]

Salvia D. by Dale Pendell (cont'd):

Poesis:
Recent studies by Aaron Reisfield (Reisfield 1993) demonstrate that Salvia divinorum is not completely self-sterile, as had been assumed: the plant can produce viable seeds, though very infrequently. Nor did Reisfield find any significant difference in the production of viable seeds from flowers pollinated from the same clone and those pollinated by plants collected from different localities. It is of course possible that there is little genetic difference between any specimens of S. divinorum, even those that today grow in widely separated areas in Oaxaca.
Reisfield's observations strongly suggest that Salvia divinorum is a hybrid. The pollen grains of Salvia divinorum have low viability, indicative of disharmonious parental genes. But low pollen viability is only part of the reason that Salvia divinorum rarely sets seed. Even with hand pollination only 2 or 3 percent of the nutlets mature. Further exacerbating the problem of reproduction, in Mexico, the plant only flowers sporadically. Flowering seems to require more sun than is optimal for vegetative growth, so it is only plants growing on the margins of its normal habitat that flower at all.
The main barrier to fertility, according to Reisfield, occurs after the pollen tube reaches the ovary. But he was unable to determine whether the infertility was due to inbreeding depression, a condition not uncommon among plants with a long history of human relationship; hybridity; or some delayed-action effect of self-incompatibility. If Salvia divinorum is indeed a hybrid, the parents are long lost in poisonous prehistory--Reisfield knows of no two sages that would account for the morphological features of la Maria.
For you, if you want ska Pastora, you will have to get it the same way everyone else has for the last two thousand years: from a cutting from someone who grows it.
If your shoot is already rooted, or if you live in a humid climate, you can go ahead and plant it directly. Plant it in shade or scattered light, the leaves don't tolerate a lot of direct sunlight--I've had some plants do well with almost no sun at all. If you live in the arid interior, you may have to mist the leaves regularly, or protect them with a humidifier. Ska Pastora loves the redwood country, where it gets fog.
The plant will thank you for some feeding. She needs water, lots, but be careful about root-rot in pots. Also, the plants wither if they get root-bound. Protect them from frost.
The Ally:
Once you see it, you know it
Was there all the time, so why
Is it all such
a big deal? And why
do we keep forgetting?Correspondences: Goddess Isis Grammar Presyntactical Mammalian Historical Age Future/Eon Image Labyrinth, Hall of Mirrors Landscape Garden Logical Operator Identity Machine Bathyscaph Metal Antimony Metaphor Borders Mineral Turquoise Musical Instrument Bull-Roarer Myth Parallel Universe Number Complex Occupation Poet/Soothsayer Out-of-Body Realm Clairvoyance Periodic Table Col. Rare Earths Phase of Matter Nuclear Condensed Philosopher Anaximander Physical Constant Fine Structure Constant a=2pe2/hc Planet Moon Poison Terror Proportion Radial Symmetry Quark Nen, the Quantum of Time On Divination:
I used the Bridge of Smoke, laying out the cards. I had smoked lots of times before but this was the first time it really happened. An abyss opened. History opened. The manipulation of the cards by my hands seemed to amplify the effect. The cards fell perfectly. Each one revealed the details and development of my story with a uniqueness that was hair-raising. Then I remembered how Crowley had said that you have to get to know the cards as people. The instant I thought that, the bottom dropped out of the cards, the background of each card became a hole in the table, like an open grave. Then the little figures on the cards moved a little. They shook free and started floating about an inch above the top of the table. They were all standing up and looking at me, waiting for me to ask them something. The species is well named.
The Ally:
It's anti-escapist, the opposite of escaping. It's not likely to be popular. It can be empathogenic, but it's more telepathic than emotional. It lights up a person's soul: we hear/know what they really think, what they really want, what they really have done. It's ideal for couples work, for keeping in touch.
On The Darkness:
The ally loves the darkness. Light can interrupt and suspend even wildly cosmic and disembodied states, seamlessly returning the petitioner to the mundane. Sometimes it is necessary to turn on the lights to attend to something or someone, a child perhaps. What is amazing is how immediately the interdimensional space reasserts itself when the lights are again put out.
The essence of the Path of Leaves is just a few friends sitting around in a dark room, perhaps drinking a little beer or tequila. Some talking. Maybe some singing or chanting. To how many people does that sound like a good time?What a joke! No wonder some people can't stop laughing. Or maybe the darkness is to keep others from looking in.It may always have been a cultish plant, something on the edges. La Maria is shy. She needs the darkness to illuminate the Logos.Or maybe the nighttime tradition is to avoid interaction with the rootless. The Ally will take you beyond the little social games that sustain the daylight. You will see the rigidity, but you may not see the importance of sometimes playing along. An uncompromising insistence on the absolute could get quickly boorish. Besides, daytime you have a job and have work to do.Effects:
Holographic. Even a very tiny amount of smoke can reveal the whole panorama. Dimly, to be sure, but all there, just the same. The Ally:
There was no me, but there was no not-me.The most "Zen" of any plant ally excepting rice. Effects:
Staggering. Lurching. But not like drunkenness: the mind is completely clear. The effect is reminiscent of kava.
On The Logos:
The poison has entered the Word. Words become stepping stones, a floating walkway to cross the chasms between.
What we really are is a web of interconnections, the summation of all of our relationships, all the people we know and those we are still to meet. It's not that we are in the web, the web is what we are. Vowel sounds change the colors; pitch and tone alter the shape of the enclosing space; semantics create texture. Sentences become palpable things, they take visible and tactile form, flying or sinking.
But all in the mind's eye, not in the eyeball: an interactive lucid dream accessible to the will.
I saw where thoughts come from, visually. Some were just forming--were seething in a kind of liquid surface, some of them went on and blossomed, became people and conversations . . .Poesis:
Contrary to written lore on Salvia divinorum, the leaves can be dried. If you grow the plant, you may only have enough leaves for fresh ingestion in the summer and fall. I cut my plants back in the wintertime--in case it freezes. I have had little success with freezing the leaves, or juicing them and freezing the juice. Maybe it would work. I just find the juice harder to use than the leaves. But you can dry the leaves, that's the easiest thing to do. The dried leaves carry the smoking-ally.
Effects (field report: a man, inventor and painter):
"There were things you didn't tell me. It took me a while to learn how to use it. I had to find the right dose. At first I was taking too much, six or seven lungfuls. Two or three is about right.
"It's like heavy zazen, like after a very long period of sitting, the place you can get to there. It's changed my life, turned my life around. Things are really going well.
"It's very intense, I call it a reality stutter, or a reality strobing. I think that having been a test pilot, and flying in that unforgiving environment with only two feet between our wingtips, helped to prepare me for this kind of exploration.
"There is something very pagan about it. I don't think you should tell anybody about it. Sex is fantastic. It sensitizes the skin. And it makes you want to go exploring. And sleep is great, I'm sleeping much better. A. said that it relieved her menstrual cramps. And her attitude."
The Plant:
in-control sage
smooth-moving sage
snake-skinned sage
oh-as-little-as-that sage
fooled-me sage
narrow-nosed sage
weasel-snouted sage
creeps-up-on-you sage
falls-all-over-you sage
loves-it sage
just-grows-and-grows sageEffects, (field report: a man, poet and writer):
"Hey, all of a sudden that stuff got strong! I used to use it for writing, but I can't do that anymore, it's too strong. But it helps me with some of my business dealings: like it told me how to talk to the producers I had to meet with the next day. I smoke it with my girlfriend. We call it 'the balancer.'" Effects: (field report, a man, sculptor):
"I had heard that it was going to be mild, so I took a lungful and held it in, and was expecting to have to take many more to feel a mild tingle. But it just overwhelmed me. It was so intense, so immediate. I had tunnel vision, I couldn't see anything except this tunnel in front of me, like I was going to pass out. Everything enfolded. I didn't like it. It was too abrupt, too scary. I recall feeling that if someone had walked into the room I wouldn't even have been able to talk to them. It is not subtle."
Effects: (field report, a woman, painter and poet):
"I smoked it every couple of days for two months. I hate to say this about a plant, but I'm in love with it. It's remarkable. It took six or seven tries before anything happened, almost like it was laying down pathways or something."
my rootlets, my neural rootlets . . ."Then, all of a sudden, a big whallop, and I mean big. Scary even. It's just remarkable. It is so present, so clear. My life has changed. It has shifted dramatically, and it's because of the plant. "It is so much what it was, unequivocal. It wasn't like it was a high, it's just Mind. It's so honest! I feel like I was recruited, like I was enlisted."
heh, heh, heh, . . ."It has to do with specificity, the differentiation of form. Every form is filled with its own luminosity of detail. And this is true emotionally also, of my own emotions. Even the days in between the days I smoked I still felt I had this direct access. It's like the feeling after a meditation retreat, the post- sesshin feeling. "I mean maybe I'm making all of this up. Maybe it was just oregano, but I call it 'my sweetheart.'"
The Plant:
green-straw sage
comes-clean sage
one-puff sage
thin-skinned sage
gets-inside sage
falls-in-love sage
tells-you-she-loves-you sage
don't-get-antisocial sage
get-to-work-on-time sage
lizard-skinned sage
smoke-skinned sage
just-grows-and-grows sageEffects:
It just gives you where you are. Wherever you are, that is what you get. If you are in darkness, you fly through darkness. The light and the faces you see are the faces that you always carry, the mental faces, lit by the glow of mind. If you are with your lover, the plant is an aphrodisiac. The Ally:
With the leaves there is no place to hide. That is why it is good for finding lost objects or for identifying thieves. It is a poison that illuminates poison: use it to find dis-ease.
Correspondences: Quantum Force Y / Schrödinger Wave Equation Realm of Pleasure Skin Ritual Event Birth Rock Ophiolite Season Samhain Sense Sixth Sexual Position Scissors Sign Pegasus Sin Lust Social Event Exile Tarot Key Moon Time of Day Midnight Tool Phurbu Virtue Temperance Vowel High Back /u/
The Ally (field report, daytime):
It seemed that as long as I left the quid in my cheek it kept getting stronger. I spit it out about one-thirty. Had an amazing time typing at my computer: it was like the typewriter from the movie "Naked Lunch." M. drove me to the beach. I felt pretty much back to normal. Late in the afternoon we decided to go to a five o'clock movie. We had some time before the movie and I strolled through a used book store. A couple of poetry books were on the display shelf. Picked up Tagore. How vacuous! All those high-sounding words but no substance. He had only read about it, thought about it. It was all lies! It was so clear. The book next to it was A. E. Housman. Dense, but legitimate. It was there. He did it through clues.
Suddenly I felt completely disoriented. What a fool I was to be out in public. How did I think I could handle going to a movie? The question "How high does it get you?" is meaningless. It's nonlinear. Only the threshold was significant, and the threshold could be so subtle!
Poesis:
One of the active ingredients of Salvia divinorum , salvinorin, can be extracted from the leaves. Valdes and his group at the University of Michigan isolated 1.2 grams of salvinorin from 5.35 kilograms of fresh leaves, which they dried to 674 grams of milled powder. Valdes didn't report how many leaves he started with, but the leaves that I pick average 2.3 grams fresh, and dry to about 0.45 grams. That works out to between 1,450 and 2,350 leaves to yield 1,200 milligrams of salvinorin, or between 500 and 800 micrograms of salvinorin per leaf. I crumble up several leaves into my pipe, but never smoke more than a quarter or a third of the pipe, which is about one dried leaf. So, back-of-the-envelope, salvinorin is active at ranges of 500 to 800 micrograms, about twenty time more active by weight than DMT (dimethyltryptamine).
Quantitative experiments by Daniel Siebert, Jonathan Ott, myself, and others have since confirmed the arithmetic.
Effects, Salvinorin:
Many experience childhood scenes. Parents may be represented abstractly. Exceedingly fast changes of scene. Ontological revelations.
I have found one salvinorin "hardhead." Under my supervision, the man carefully and properly smoked a full milligram of salvinorin, vaporized in a glass pipe. After a few minutes he shrugged his shoulders, got up, and, trying to be polite, remarked that "maybe there were some visuals."
Poesis:
All of the information needed to isolate salvinorin is in Valdes's paper (or, another method, in Ortega's paper). While Ortega and Valdes had to isolate pure crystalline salvinorin quantitatively, simpler extractions would suffice.
But all of this raises some questions. Why do it? On the "Crystal Highway" the ally often shows a more precipitous, and more terrifying, face than she does on the Path or on the Bridge. Many who meet the ally on the Crystal Highway never wish to repeat the experience. The ally is always fast, but on the Crystal Highway she is superluminal. And controlling dosage at the microgram level requires some skill. The raw leaf seems so exquisitely balanced already.
The plant is legal; just grow it. You may learn something. It is plenty strong enough in its fresh or dried form. It is benevolent in that form. When you start dealing with molecules in micrograms, with glass pipes, with overdoses, you are up against possibly serious issues of toxicity. And the sacred leaves of the shepherdess become a commodity. And then there are the legal considerations.
My advice is to make friends with the plant. If you want to socialize, consider smoking cannabis; if you want to get high, try nitrous oxide or smoking DMT. Only if you are ready to walk with an ally should you attempt the Path of Leaves or cross the Bridge of Smoke. Just don't blame me if the green beings recruit you, and you become a plant disguised with legs instead of a person.

[greenfox]

Salvia D. by Dale Pendell (final part):

------------------------------------------

Effects, Salvinorin: The Crystal Road:
I thought that I had measured out 600 micrograms. Later it occurred to me that a substantial amount of the solvent had evaporated in storage, and that each drop was as much as doubled in potency.The fast drop. A trapdoor. Like on the scaffold of a gallows. The frightening terror of absolute emptiness. His head dropped onto the table and his arms splayed out. The cards flew all over. He fell out of his chair, some vases and books and another chair falling with him. Then his body twitched and I watched him turn into a bear. His whole body grew taut. A deep guttural growl sounded from his throat and he began speaking in tongues. His eyes had completely glazed over. None of it was pretend. I saw the strength: two men couldn't have held him down, if he had run amok.Trance. Possession. The other side of shamanism, across that terrifying abyss: shape-shifters. There live skin-walkers and werewolves. Think twice before offering a full moon medicine to a shape-shifter.The Crystal Road: (field report, a man, artist): All of the parallel universes were there. My childhood was there, and the death of my son. It was pure terror, all of it swirling through these breaks in time, breaks in what moments are made of. The whole universe was turned inside out. To get back I had to pull it all back through my asshole. I had to destroy the worlds that I didn't choose to exist in. And some of them tried to stop me from doing that, they kept calling to me, telling me not to do it, that they wanted to exist. We were in the place you are before you are born, and the place you go to after you die. Once you step out of time, once you break through that continuum, all spaces are connected.
That I existed was the most amazing thing. The whole thing was an absurdity, but I couldn't come back unless I accepted it, all of it. All the pain of my life was waiting there, I---'s death was there waiting, but it was like I had to choose, it took effort. I had to accept all of it in order to return to this particular universe.
Poesis:
Ortega extracted dried and milled leaves with hot chloroform. He isolated salvinorin from the green residue left over after evaporating the solvent with column chromatography. He used thin layer chromatography to test for salvinorin in the fractions, and found it in the sixth and seventh of thirteen. The TLC plates were developed with 10 per cent phosphomolybdic acid in isopropanol (ethyl acetate/hexane, 45:55, Rf=0.7). Crystallize from methanol, melting point 238-240°C. Valdes extracted with ether. He partitioned the dried extract between hexanes and 90 percent aqueous methanol, saving the polar components in the methanolic fraction.
An excellent product I call "4x" can be prepared by evaporating an ethanolic (or methanolic) extraction of the dried leaves, and sopping up the oily goo left over after evaporating or distilling off the solvent with "cleaned" leaves rubbed through a strainer. Use an amount of cleaned leaf equal to about one-quarter the original weight of the leaves extracted. The 4x enrichment is suitable for smoking in small pipes.
I've tried "10x" also. In that case, wash out the non-polar compounds from the goo with hexanes, more or less as outlined by Valdes. Keep track of your weights.
Ethnobotany:
Tea brewed from four or five pairs of leaves is medicinal. Mazatecs use the tea for headache and rheumatism. It is also said to be good for anemia and problems of the eliminatory functions.
The Plant:
The leaves of the moon. With no other plant are preparation and ground state training so crucial. Ska Pastora is a moon doctors' plant. It could typify lunar medicine all by itself, its light is so pale and white. The lunar medicine is needed not to avert disaster, as is sometimes the case when dealing with the phantastica, but to hear the words, to comprehend the presentation. "Just this" is not at all the same thing as "merely this."
She will take who you are and run away with it faster than any plant I know.Effects:
The word incredible gets used a lot. How Taken: Bottom Line:
Grow enough leaves to provide eleven to twenty-two leaves, thirty to sixty grams, for each person. It is traditional to have an extra bundle on hand as a "booster" for those who desire to return to the trance after their initial voyage.
Arrange the leaves so that the stems all face the same direction. Place them on the altar. Burn a little incense. Do this in a comfortable room, with cushions, preferably one that can be completely darkened. In the city, a tarp pinned over a window will keep out streetlights and such. Start as soon as it is dark.
By candlelight, roll your bundle of leaves into a cigar and chew away until it is gone, or until you can't find your mouth. Or until. Chew well. If you are not going to swallow, or are not going to swallow all of it, provide each person with a nice dish or basket to receive the exhausted quid. But chew long and well. Then blow the candle out. Be accepting. Cleanse your palate with some tequila, or some beer.
Are your eyes open or closed? Are you sure?After about forty-five minutes, if you didn't finish all of your leaves, eat the rest. Or eat six or twelve new leaves, if you are inclined. Chanting and singing are appropriate, as is some tobacco. It is easier to get the leaves down if you have fasted half a day before the velada. Eat after: at midnight or thereabouts. Best not to drive, but, if you must, never before you have eaten. Soups go well, and fruits.
Remember: your friends, the darkness, the gathering, and the chewing are all integral parts of the whole experience, and have been so for many, many centuries. The ancestors of two kingdoms await you.
The Ally:
Sometimes the sage whispers, sometimes it shouts.
Sometimes it tells you to sing, sometimes
it takes your voice, walks off, leaving you
rooted, eyeless, and with the kind of voice
a plant has.The Plant:
Enthusiasm. Entheos. The plant of the gods, brought within.
La planta de los dioses.
La planta amada de los dioses.The wise plant, the sage plant,
the plant of the Savioress. La planta sabia.
La salvia de las adivinas.
La salvia sabia.We welcome the plant. La planta que salva.
La Salvadora de los sabios.We are not different from the plant.
It is we who must save the gods.
It is we who must be diviners. Somos nosotros que debemos que ser adivinos.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


OK... that's that. Like I said, this is the WORST part of the first book. But that's his writing style. You should see how he covers opiates. He's like:

"Effects:

Warmth Well being Dreaminess Euphoria Social ability
sometimes, or maybe:

Nightmares Twitching Aches Pains loneliness
but that comes later...."


Seriously. He's THAT good. And that's just the little I can remember. CHECK THIS BOOK OUT.

Peace.

sig,fik,
-=gf

[Duckfeet]

I'll take yer word for it ... sounds cool, but I think u have to have a minimum of interest in "organic" things, which I don't, and my love of the outdoors is more theory than reality...but here:


lets see, my favorite book is Erections, Ejaculations, Exhibitions and General Tales of Ordinary Madness, by Charles Bukowski, way out of print...and I've got several copies, which I always end up trading off to other well read types for dilaudids, but I got my first copy before u were born, put out by City Lights Book Store, back when all these Sierra types were all over the place...let me find some quotes:

"there are enough social commentators with low-level brainpower now, why should I add my high-level snarl? we've all heard the old women who say, "oh, I think it's just AWFUL what these young people do to themselves, all that dope and stuff! I think it's terrible!" and then you look at the old gal: no eyes, no teeth, no brain, no soul, no ass, no mouth, no color, no flux, no humor, nothing, just a stick, and you wonder what her tea and cookies and church and home on the corner have done for HER, and the old men sometimes get quite violent about what some of the young are doing -- "hell, I worked HARD all my life!" (they think this is a virtue, but it only proves a man is a damn fool.) "these people want everything for NOTHING! sitting around wrecking their bodies with dope, hoping to live off the fat of the land!"

and another:

the kid was gone. I had to take a shit. the toilet was clogged; the landlord gone for 3 days. I took the shit and put it in a brown paper bag. then I went outside and walked with the paperbag like a man going to work with his lunch. then when I got to the vacant lot I threw the bag. three forewords. 3 bags of shit. nobody would ever understand how Bukowski suffered.

--------------

fine, then, and inside I was alone again, and the madness of the night was the madness of the day. I arrranged myself upon the bed, supine, staring upward and listened to the cocksucking rain.


All the best, man, appreciate the attempt, but like I said, plant life, the trees, the beauty of nature...no matter how well written, don't get it...why I never have nothing to say on pods, probably....

[greenfox]

I'll take yer word for it ... sounds cool, but I think u have to have a minimum of interest in "organic" things, which I don't, and my love of the outdoors is more theory than reality...but here:


lets see, my favorite book is Erections, Ejaculations, Exhibitions and General Tales of Ordinary Madness, by Charles Bukowski, way out of print...and I've got several copies, which I always end up trading off to other well read types for dilaudids, but I got my first copy before u were born, put out by City Lights Book Store, back when all these Sierra types were all over the place...let me find some quotes:

"there are enough social commentators with low-level brainpower now, why should I add my high-level snarl? we've all heard the old women who say, "oh, I think it's just AWFUL what these young people do to themselves, all that dope and stuff! I think it's terrible!" and then you look at the old gal: no eyes, no teeth, no brain, no soul, no ass, no mouth, no color, no flux, no humor, nothing, just a stick, and you wonder what her tea and cookies and church and home on the corner have done for HER, and the old men sometimes get quite violent about what some of the young are doing -- "hell, I worked HARD all my life!" (they think this is a virtue, but it only proves a man is a damn fool.) "these people want everything for NOTHING! sitting around wrecking their bodies with dope, hoping to live off the fat of the land!"

and another:

the kid was gone. I had to take a shit. the toilet was clogged; the landlord gone for 3 days. I took the shit and put it in a brown paper bag. then I went outside and walked with the paperbag like a man going to work with his lunch. then when I got to the vacant lot I threw the bag. three forewords. 3 bags of shit. nobody would ever understand how Bukowski suffered.

--------------

fine, then, and inside I was alone again, and the madness of the night was the madness of the day. I arrranged myself upon the bed, supine, staring upward and listened to the cocksucking rain.


All the best, man, appreciate the attempt, but like I said, plant life, the trees, the beauty of nature...no matter how well written, don't get it...why I never have nothing to say on pods, probably....


I'll convert you yet. There's a reason for all the fox talk; a reason for the interest- the depraved indifference and the fox-ness of yet another hit. Foxes are sly.....there's nothing childish here. A 28-year-old making fox-noises before bed *(well not quite, but the metaphor is sound...) but still, I'd be INTERESTED in hearing your horror of life authorian stories. I would, based on the baseless yet sound quotes, treat myself to a read... if it was even semi-readily available.....

but still..

I WILL convert you.

You'll be hunting vixens before I'm through.

The natural, base, and "inhuman" animalistic qualities of it all.

So help me God...

sig,fik,
-=gf

[Duckfeet]

Yer alright gf: u keep me distracted from my woes :-)

But I don't think so: too much city life, brite lites and bars and latenite beauties, and now, listen to ocean pounding, that's about it...I never figured I'd outlive my veins...

Two sponsees of mine from AA called me today, all blue w/family and problems and just wanting me to cheer them up...and I"m out of ammo, really, and need to get out of AA...I'm going to move to Mexico...or I want to, but i"ve got the best coolest cottage down here right by the beach, and never had it so good, but I've been here too long...


I'll convert you yet. There's a reason for all the fox talk; a reason for the interest- the depraved indifference and the fox-ness of yet another hit. Foxes are sly.....there's nothing childish here. A 28-year-old making fox-noises before bed *(well not quite, but the metaphor is sound...) but still, I'd be INTERESTED in hearing your horror of life authorian stories. I would, based on the baseless yet sound quotes, treat myself to a read... if it was even semi-readily available.....

but still..

I WILL convert you.

You'll be hunting vixens before I'm through.

The natural, base, and "inhuman" animalistic qualities of it all.

So help me God...

sig,fik,
-=gf

[Duckfeet]

I forgot one Caif NW oriented writer I do like: Denis Johnson, who wrote the stories "Jesus Son" and I just ordered this huge book on Vietnam and everything else he writes about, called "Tree of Smoke..." sometimes he reminds me a bit of Pynchon, gets a little scattered ...

[Crow]

Foxy, that book you are posting samples of sounds awesome! What is it?

[greenfox]

Foxy, that book you are posting samples of sounds awesome! What is it?

Pharmako/Poeia by

Dale Pendell


and it IS awesome. It breaks everything down into a MANDALA. It's very sophisticated.

Pendell believes ALL drugs fall into one of FIVE classes, or a mix or a CROSS section between two (never more).

The five classes:

PHANTASTICA - trip's
INEBRIATIA - alcohol, etc.
EUPHORICA - opiates
EXCITIANTIA - stimulants
THANATOPATHIA - death drugs (cigs, betel, etc)


now you say that doesn't cover EVERYTHING!!!

Well watch.

Nitrus is a cross between: INEBRIATIA EUPHORICA
Pot is a cross between: EUPHORICA PHANTASTICA
MDMA is a cross-SECTION between: EXCITIANTIA EUPHORICA

you have to see it to believe it. This guy is a friggin' fuckin' genius.

:)

peace.

sig,fik,
-=gf

and it gets better... MUCH better...

watch this:

When you're on adderall and you COMBINE thanatopathia (cig's/death) you get.... EUPHORICA (opiate-like feeling);

tell me you DON'T want to have a cig' if you're on speed. :)

And if you saw the MANDALA it would make GEOMETRIC sense: combining stimulants and cig's on the chart points to... EUPHORICA.

INTERESTING TO NOTE:

ALL the classes have MULTIPLE EXAMPLES *SAVE ONE* - EUHPHORICA.

In other words.. phantastica.. has... "peyote, mushrooms, DMT"
thanatopathia has... "cigs, betel.."
IBEBRIATIA has .. "wine, spirits, booze..."
EXCITIANTIA has... "caffine, cocaine, cola, CHOCHOLATE, etc.."

well..

there's only ONE plants/drug that falls DIRECTLY under "EUPHORICA" which is... P. Som.

How's that for poetry?

Pendell says SPEED and MDMA is a "false euphoria" and ONLY the poppy plant provides TRUE euphoria. Huh. Imagine that. :)

sig,fik,
-=gf

[Crow]

and it gets better... MUCH better...

watch this:

When you're on adderall and you COMBINE thanatopathia (cig's/death) you get.... EUPHORICA (opiate-like feeling);

tell me you DON'T want to have a cig' if you're on speed. :)

And if you saw the MANDALA it would make GEOMETRIC sense: combining stimulants and cig's on the chart points to... EUPHORICA.

INTERESTING TO NOTE:

ALL the classes have MULTIPLE EXAMPLES *SAVE ONE* - EUHPHORICA.

In other words.. phantastica.. has... "peyote, mushrooms, DMT"
thanatopathia has... "cigs, betel.."
IBEBRIATIA has .. "wine, spirits, booze..."
EXCITIANTIA has... "caffine, cocaine, cola, CHOCHOLATE, etc.."

well..

there's only ONE plants/drug that falls DIRECTLY under "EUPHORICA" which is... P. Som.

How's that for poetry?

Pendell says SPEED and MDMA is a "false euphoria" and ONLY the poppy plant provides TRUE euphoria. Huh. Imagine that. :)

sig,fik,
-=gf

Ahh, you've whetted my appetite now...gotta check him out! Now that is some interesting stuff!

[Duckfeet]

alright alright: I do it too: but we should limit our "book quotes" to one page a day...or people will start thinking we are "attention seeking whores" ...or worse, the more common, run-of-the-mill late night self-pitying fear of my own: the dreaded DRAMA QUEEN!!! title...

Me and GF both need to be periodically reminded of this curse, IMHO ... and now I'm doing it *here!* I just can't *beliieve* myself...(throws hands in the air theatrically, and attempts Mae West impersonation in front of mirror)

My excuse:

"It's not my fault my life is so full and exciting and mysterious and all u sissies do is just sit around in front of computer screens and *envy*!!!" ; :whip::cool:

JOKE!! ;-)

[born2lose]

hmmm////interesting stuff here.... out of curiosity tho, where does this pendell guy place benzos?

[Duckfeet]

Original Pendell Guy quoter is gone...probably have to check it out yerself, now, unless there are other Pendell readers on here...

hmmm////interesting stuff here.... out of curiosity tho, where does this pendell guy place benzos?

[chopstix]

Duck, you ever decide to rent that cottage out, lemme know :)

[opiobsessed]

I love my subs.
'done makes me feel like a zombie- and it's like, the more I take, the more zombie I feel. It doesn't make me "happy"- the BUPE does. I know that this is still a very new and very strange drug that not even the research chemists and the docs understand- but i understand THIS: when I get my script' and it's been 12+ hours since I've been using OTHER opiates OR if I'm on a very low dose (1/4 to 1/5th of a pill or lower) for a week BEFORE bupe day....QUOTE

Woo hoo, I feel the exact same way on done, I just lowered my dose to 140 yesterday and I feel a little better, I remember how the bupe made me feel that same way almost just like vicodin made me feel. I can't wait to get off the done crap, I will never look back, with hopes that the clinic doc will give me subutex once I'm down to 20mg of done a day(which seems awful low to me). I can't wait to feel better again and get my life back again and not be a zombie all day. I'm fed up with sleeping all afternoon, just getting up for supper and taking my last valiums of the day to get me through so I can go to bed around 10pm at latest. I'm doing everything I can within comfort to get off done as fast as possible.

Anyone got any ideas on how I can manage the wd's that start in as I go down 10mg of done a week? my family says its too much for me to handle and so does my done doc, but I dont want to take a year to get off this stuff.

[timshanki]

Have you guys ever taken BUP, and w the same dose, one night pass right out and then other stay awake 'til the wee hrs of the am?:confused:

[Duckfeet]

I dont know about that: I do know that me--and others--have found that subs make us really *speedy* particularly if we take them at night, so me, I always took'em in the morning, or at latest, in the afternoon, as it's just like drinking a big mug of coffee...

And btw, *welcome to you!* I just noticed this was yer first post, and hope u enjoy the site!



Have you guys ever taken BUP, and w the same dose, one night pass right out and then other stay awake 'til the wee hrs of the am?:confused:

[timshanki]

Thanx for the welcome...I have been reading past threads b4 becoming a member...I've learned a lot from many of you guys out there-THANK U! Anyway-i hope u all have a good new year's eve and a better new year...Peace.

[Inspektahdek]

the thread wouldn't allow me to edit because the other post I made had expired on time so here's an addition to my second to last post----->

EDIT: Hey foxy, I read that you don't find a ceiling dose until around 40mg or more. How do you compare a 32 mg dose to a 40 mg dose? Is there a significant difference? The most I've ever done is 32mg 4 times a day every 6-8 hours. I figured all ceilings are averaged at a median dose bupe being 32mg for most people but I've also read that some people ceiling at 24mgs but I guess that's not the case. If you could, just explain how it differs with the extra 8mg and how do you dose? 8mg at a time or 16 at a time, etc? I wish bupe didn't have a ceiling, because I'd prob abuse the hell out of it, but then again, it's prob a good thing for me since it contains a ceiling dose. lol I know definitely that codeine has a 400mg ceiling because even at that dose I feel nothing and going beyond that dose, I get a scratch histamine fever like nothing other of ALL OPIATES/OPIOIDS. There's no other histamine reaction than taking alot of codeine, even morphine doesn't hold a candle to the scratching I get on codeine. I've bled in various spots on the body from codeine histamine reaction. ;)



hey foxy could u answer this question for me because I'm experimenting with subs again along with the SJW mess


thanks

[chopstix]

0p1on0mo is the fox..

One thousand fucking posts on this board, you believe that shit?? I guess it's official now..

[Ludakris]

0p1on0mo is the fox..

One thousand fucking posts on this board, you believe that shit?? I guess it's official now..


WTF? When did that happen??? I thought fox had just come back after being gone for awhile...hmm

So...you're in the 1,000 club...don't you get a "Fruit Basket" so to speak for that kind of accomplishment...if not, I think we should make it a new rule :cheeky2:

[Thanat0s]

i must have missed whatever drama brought THAT ban...
too bad, i liked the character...

[chopstix]

My recollection was that there really wasn't much drama, he just got the boot, probably for soliciting but that's a guess on my part.

He was/is a character alright, but the foxy this foxy that bs got a little old after awhile, imo.. Nothing wrong with a little eccentricity here and there but ya gotta keep it interesting..

[sidman]

I love all opiates damn it! Sub's included !
They are great ( for me) if I want to stop opiates.
I get 28 subs every two weeks and when I got my refill today, I still have ten left over from the last script.
Subs allowed me to save cash....and to stay "not-sick" for the most part.
They are good to have if in a opiate wd crisis.
But if I truly want to get high off of some other type of opiate then I have to stay off the Subs for almost two days before I feel anything from other opiates.
Once a month, a friend of mine gets 30-30mgs of morhine pills (Avinza) and if I really want to feel them at all, I can't take any subs for 36 or so hours before I eat the Morph. Even then I still have to eat at least 150-180mgs ( 5-6 Avinzas) before I'll even feel any Glow at all. (I sometimes think I should just get a couple of bags of H but then again, I've gotten used to having money because I dont spend it on Dope anymore,so...)
In some ways Subs can be a pain in the ass if I want to get high,but fuck it, my insurance pays for them and they are good to have just in case.
Another thing.........I dont think I've come across one thread that has stayed entirely ON TOPIC.
Are we all fried or what?
I digress.

[Inspektahdek]

I love all opiates damn it! Sub's included !
They are great ( for me) if I want to stop opiates.
I get 28 subs every two weeks and when I got my refill today, I still have ten left over from the last script.
Subs allowed me to save cash....and to stay "not-sick" for the most part.
They are good to have if in a opiate wd crisis.
But if I truly want to get high off of some other type of opiate then I have to stay off the Subs for almost two days before I feel anything from other opiates.
Once a month, a friend of mine gets 30-30mgs of morhine pills (Avinza) and if I really want to feel them at all, I can't take any subs for 36 or so hours before I eat the Morph. Even then I still have to eat at least 150-180mgs ( 5-6 Avinzas) before I'll even feel any Glow at all. (I sometimes think I should just get a couple of bags of H but then again, I've gotten used to having money because I dont spend it on Dope anymore,so...)
In some ways Subs can be a pain in the ass if I want to get high,but fuck it, my insurance pays for them and they are good to have just in case.
Another thing.........I dont think I've come across one thread that has stayed entirely ON TOPIC.
Are we all fried or what?
I digress.


agreed, you buzz from subs though?

[Inspektahdek]

I never knew FOX was opionomo what happened there?

[sidman]

Yeah I get a buzz from them but I have to stay off of every kind of opiate for at least a week in order to do so.
Cances of that actually happening?
Slim....................real slim!