Zenpunk's Bupe Detox Diary

[zenpunk]

I've decided that enough is enough. I have a definite addiction, snorting up to a bag in the morning and one at night for months on end. For me H was about mental stability, but the point is reached where the scale is tipped and the medicine that helped me so much at first began to saturate me as my tolerance goes up and up. I have really reached the end of the road.

Stupid ZenPunk thought she would quit cold turkey on Tuesday, how bad could it be? By noon of missing the morning dose my eyes were as huge as plates (aka my other post - what do big eyes mean). By 8PM I was in bed. The next day I couldn't move and by Thursday the decision of calling 911 was being toyed with. There was no choice. I took 1/3 a bag that someone brought me that night so I could make arrangements to get Suboxone. I felt like such a failure. But I would not go back to dope so it was time to go back to Bupe and use it seriously this time as I am ashamed to say I would just use it for relief when the DOC wasn't available.

Believe it or not SWIMs dealer also sells Suboxone and has quite a bit of experience with it. We sat there and discussed the lamentations of addiction and SWIM received enough Suboxone to quit in a short time period. To not be in agony, but not be in perfect comfort. To taper off the Suboxone asap and not make it a new habit (which has been a problem in the past). By the time I left the house my eyes were huge again and, by the time I had to stop and get gas I could barely move.

The Original Plan was as Follows:
Friday: 1/4 tablet or 2 mg
Sat: 1/4 tablet or 2 mg
Sun: 1/2 tablet or 4 mg
Mon: 1/2 tablet of 4 mg
Tue: 1/2 tablet or 4 mg
Wed: 1/4 tablet or 2 mg
Thurs: 1/4 tablet or 2 mg
Fri: None
Sat 1/4 tablet or 2 mg
Sun: None
Mon: 1/4 tablet or 2 mg
Tues: None
Wed: None
Thurs: 1/4 or 1/8 tablet or 2 or 1 mg
Friday: The end

more to come.....hopefully my diary can be a source of advice and comments and discussion.

[zenpunk]

DIARY FRIDAY:

So by the time I returned home and found out I couldn't even pump gas I took 2mg of Suboxone. This was around 1PM. Even at 5PM the leg cramps were nearly unbearable so I took another 1mg to keep it under control. 3mg for the day seemed to keep me at the level that I didn't feel great but I could sleep at night.

Along with this I am taking (please everyone comment on the validity of this) the following:

10 mg of Lexapro from a friend figuring that this will help the eventual depression.
MJ
Lots of Wine

Only problem was my legs were slightly uncomfortable throughout the day.

[zenpunk]

DIARY SATURDAY:

At 8 AM I awoke with leg and knee pain. And massive depression where I sat in bed and cried. I took 2mg right away but by 10 AM the pain was still there. I took another Mg, making the total 3mg, same as yesterday. My legs became stiff and uncomfortable but no longer painful.

I called "my provider" as he said to call anytime and told him how I was feeling. He told me if it was bearable to bear it because tomorrow's dose will be larger and I am building up bupe in my system. Since I had nowhere to go I might as well chill out in the house. He told me to give me a call on Tuesday morning before I take another dose, in other words after I take 2 more doses of 1/2 a pill, 1 each morning and tell him how I felt on Sunday and Monday. Based on that the schedule may be altered that we may try to skip a dose on Tuesday and then go to 1/4 on Wednesday.

Once again in addition I took:

10 mg Lexapro
Wine
MJ

[roxi*stardust]

Your plan sounds good. The leg pains would be helped with the addition of Motrin 600-800mg 3x a day. The Lexapro? Are you going to continue to use this for a long period after the Bupe Detox? If not, I would not even bother with it since it takes up to 2 weeks before you will notice ANY results and you should contniue to take it for 6 months or longer to achieve the re-uptake of Serotonin consistently.

[Nate]

Wish you the best of luck, sounds like you have a good plan, keep up with it.

[zenpunk]

Your plan sounds good. The leg pains would be helped with the addition of Motrin 600-800mg 3x a day. The Lexapro? Are you going to continue to use f=this for a long period after the Bupe Detox? If not, I would not even bother with it since it takes up to 2 weeks before you will notice ANY results and you should contniue to take it for 6 months or longer to achieve the re-uptake of Serotonin consistently.

Fantastic I have Motrin right in my medicine cabinet - I just am so used to nothing working that I didn't bother. I will take some. I was thinking of going on an antidepressant, but I will do it the right way and talk with my therapist instead of randomly taking an antidepressant in a panic.

Any ideas to help with the depression other than more bupe? I want to keep to this plan.

I've been pondering the events that started my daily habit. I'm nervous but I knew sooner or later I would have to face the pain of them.

[roxi*stardust]

Fantastic I have Motrin right in my medicine cabinet - I just am so used to nothing working that I didn't bother. I will take some. I was thinking of going on an antidepressant, but I will do it the right way and talk with my therapist instead of randomly taking an antidepressant in a panic.

Any ideas to help with the depression other than more bupe? I want to keep to this plan.

I've been pondering the events that started my daily habit. I'm nervous but I knew sooner or later I would have to face the pain of them.
The depression is tough. I find that if I do stuff that I enjoy, I feel better. So try to keep busy doing stuff you like. Music is another great escape.

I have the same problems when I switch from my DOC to Bupe, my legs hurt BAD. It is my shins and knees, feels like they are cracked, if that makes any sense. I'm so used to my DOC, that I figured nothing besides that would help the shin pain but I started taking my 800mg Motrin that my doctor prescribed and it works pretty good. Another thing that helps those general aches not relieved by Bupe is a nice hot bath.

If you are going to get an anti-depressant from yout therapist ask about Cymbalta or Effexor. Effexor has a structure similar to opiates aand Cymbalta has been found to be especially effective in opiate abusers. I am currently taking Cymbalta and I am getting fairly decent results. My friend who quit CT is now on Effexor and seems to be happy with it.

Make sure to eat good and take vitamins. Eat alot of fruit or drink fruit juice, especially Orange juice or Pineapple juice. I don't know what it is and don't have any evidence to back it up but for me the extra Vitamin C helps. If anyone knows if there is truth to this let me know.

Good luck and keep us updated!!!

[zenpunk]

Roxi - thank you so much - once again I really appreciate your advice. I know exactly how you described your leg and knee pain - I am there right now! I've been getting hot showers and I will talk to my therapist about those antidepressants. She has been trying to get me to take something for the last 3 years but stubborn me always knows better.

I haven't even been eating every day so I better put a stop to that. I have vitamins too and I wonder if the deal with the juice is actually the sugar. I find that real cane sugar really helped when I have used bupe while working in mexico. I would down those real old fashioned cokes with real cane sugar. I'm going to pick up some boylan's pure cane sugar grape soda - it tastes like grape Fanta before they poisoned it with corn syrup.

[SurfRat]

Hang in there Zenpunk!!

[roxi*stardust]

Roxi - thank you so much - once again I really appreciate your advice. I know exactly how you described your leg and knee pain - I am there right now! I've been getting hot showers and I will talk to my therapist about those antidepressants. She has been trying to get me to take something for the last 3 years but stubborn me always knows better.

I haven't even been eating every day so I better put a stop to that. I have vitamins too and I wonder if the deal with the juice is actually the sugar. I find that real cane sugar really helped when I have used bupe while working in mexico. I would down those real old fashioned cokes with real cane sugar. I'm going to pick up some boylan's pure cane sugar grape soda - it tastes like grape Fanta before they poisoned it with corn syrup.
Your very welcome.

You might be right about the sugar. I'm going to do some research.......be back with some answers.:)

[zenpunk]

I just had one of those grape sodas - it does seem to help a little bit.

[mikells43]

also if u stop by a pharm or supermarket, pick up vitamin d pills, they are under 5 bucks(i paid 2.29 for 100 of them) the measurement is 400MU or metric units. they help my mood greatly. whats ur plan after al the bupe? im just curious.

[irish]

I'm definitely with you on the cane sugar sodas, way better than corn syrup. Maybe a magnesium supliment, it has been shown to reduce cravings in both opiate and coke addicts. I don't know if you react the same way but the only times during withdrawal that I have actually felt suicidal have been the day after drinking. I don't know how much wine you are drinking but it might effect your mood.

[zenpunk]

also if u stop by a pharm or supermarket, pick up vitamin d pills, they are under 5 bucks(i paid 2.29 for 100 of them) the measurement is 400MU or metric units. they help my mood greatly. whats ur plan after al the bupe? im just curious.

My plan is to be clean actually. But we can all still be friends - I won't be a jerk about it. :D This hasn't been my first try but I am hoping my determination pays off.

[bronyraur]

Sounds like a solid plan Zen.

Like Roxi* said, toss the Lexapro and see your therapist.

Keep us posted and GOOD LUCK!!!

[zenpunk]

I'm definitely with you on the cane sugar sodas, way better than corn syrup. Maybe a magnesium supliment, it has been shown to reduce cravings in both opiate and coke addicts. I don't know if you react the same way but the only times during withdrawal that I have actually felt suicidal have been the day after drinking. I don't know how much wine you are drinking but it might effect your mood.

Now that, thanks to Roxis advice the Motrin is helping the leg pain, I'm going to cut off the wine, after all, alcohol is a depressant and I do feel more depressed in the morning after drinking.

[zenpunk]

DIARY SUNDAY:

Woke up in tears and leg pain. Took 800mg Motrin and 4mg (1/2) Suboxone sub lingually.

After about 1/2 hour began to feel slightly better (but not much) emotionally and a lot better leg-wise, just a little stiffness. For those that know me personally, I am a complete workaholic with a 90% travel schedule and until last Wednesday hadn't taken a sick day in 9 years. Between tears I texted my boss and told him that I am still very sick and need to take the entire week off and cannot do my California trip tomorrow and for him to call me right away.

I'm drinking one of those cane sugar grape sodas, I hope that helps with the emotions. I also have a magnesium drink called "natural calm" that I'll try too.

[irish]

Do you have a bathtub? If you do I would suggest filling it with the hottest water you can stand and staying in as long as you can. If you don't have a tub you could use an electric blanket.(they're pretty cheap) It really helps with the back cramps and general aches & chills.

[zenpunk]

DIARY SUNDAY (CONT):

11:30AM: Feel a little noddy, though legs still hurt. Noddy, but not high by any means. Of, course I imagine this is from the higher dose.

I took the 4mg Sub at 8:30AM.

[kyuss]

You can do it ZP,
the subs are a godsend.
Just stick to your taper
and stay away from alcohol.

[Duckfeet]

I just read this thread all thru, and it really is a good thread, Zenpunk, and it's much appreciated when someone posts their experience, especially with *detoxing* using subs, as I still think that is what they are best at....I have one pal on here who is pretty sold on them as a Maintenance drug. I'm not convinced, but he is doing well on them...

My own take, is to always remember less is more with subs, that it's just *so* tempting to up the dose, when detoxing, but it really doesn't seem to do much good, and just replaces old habit with a doozyy of a new one...but again, there isn't a *lot* of consistent info on sub detox.

Several months ago, when I still had too much money, I spent several thousand bucks on a Palm Beach methadone detox place, which takes about a month, and "supposedly" works really good. I found out what so many others have found: that subs *do* work good, for getting off methadone and stuff, but that when u finally *jump*, that is, quit taking them altogether, that the withdrawal symptoms can be pretty tough, to me more like heroin withdrawals than methadone withdrawals. Fiercer, but hopefully not lasting as long...

The main thing, the hardest thing, is just to hang in there, as it eventually *does* get better, but *when* that happens, is that it happens so slowly, and most of us just get *tired* of the damn detoxing hell, and start back up again. This year that has always happened to me...and I went from a few dilaudid shots in the hospital, to Norcos out here, back to heroin, methadone, the whole enchilada I thought I'd left behind...

So I don't really have any more info than what others have already posted. My only suggestion, the one I always give to buprenorphene people, is that you check out www.heroin-detox.com in the buprenorphene/suboxone forum, as they have all kinds of really good info on tapering, how much, how to do it, what the withdrawals are about, all that...It's a site for people trying to get off dope altogether--not me--and can be aggravating, but I got a lot of help over there, so I recommend it to anybody aiming to get free of this curse...or, again, for anybody considering subutex or suboxone....one of the admins over there, "Peacenik" has always been kind to me, and when I was sort of beleaguered over on Watchdog, he would post me privately, and even tho he's more for getting off everything, I like the fact he is *banned* from another site I go to...I always like that.

Anyway, whenever I try to get off of everything, I end up over there, and I'm "Duckfeet" there, "Duckfeet" everywhere...say hi to Peacenik, another SD good egg....


Thanks again for taking the time to post your struggles...Bupe is still a mystery to many of us, and many, like me, have learned thru our experiences with methadone maintenance, to be very skeptical of anything the gov't approves of......

[zenpunk]

3PM Sunday:

Got a ride to Trader Joe's and did some shopping - shuffled around the store like a 90 year old woman and my hips were hurting pretty bad by the time I sat back down in the car (I couldn't drive my own car). Now I'm back riding the couch and took a couple of Mortrin.

Kyuss: Why stay away from alcohol? Won't that help with the pain?

Duckfeet: Depressing news I have to say - I was hoping with this taper plan that is involving some degree of discomfort, once I jumped completely in 2 weeks the agony wouldn't be the same as the Heroin withdrawals I had to endure and finally give up on last Thursday night (as per the beginning of my diary). I was running a high fever, in complete screaming agony and debating calling an ambulance. I was hoping that jumping from 2mg of Bupe taken like once every 2 - 3 days would be like the discomfort I have now only added by like a factor of 2. Please say it isn't so. On Thursday I really thought I was going to die and I have a huge pain threshold, that's why I'm doing this low dose taper that includes discomfort.

[mikells43]

stay determined. I have been on sub matenence for a while now. i take 8mg of subutex daily. it keeps me normal with no pawws so i can do my thang. also the hardest part when u jump off of the subs is goin to prob be day 4 or 5, mabey 3 even since ur on a low dose. the thing most people bitch about is the restless legs and restless arms. thats what everyone has a prob with , not to mention the irritibility and other things. u dont get that bad of w/ds but u kno the typical drug user is going to make everything sound as bad as it isn't. thats just how the mind works.. also i have been reading alot on people right after going off of bupe, going on Low Dose Naxtrolne for a few months, it helps level things off in the brain. LIke i said i have been on matenence for a while now, i haven't touched anything the whole time, and my life has changed dramaticaly.. i hope urs does the same. i also reccomend teaching urself new behaviors, practicing letting things go easy, working on guilt, and all those things that were bottled up in ur head while using, it will help u lead a great life if u deal wtih those issues however u feel approate. i feel kyruss said to stay away from booze b/c that may become ur new doc since ur not getting any euphroia anymore, the brain does tricky things like that.

[reddragon3668]

This is a good thread. I've been rooting for you, Zenpunk, as I've read each post. I admire your determination, and I know its hard. Some people never even attempt what you are trying to do. So, no matter what, you've got a lot to be proud of!

Hang in there the best you can! And, the lexapro or cymbalta is a great idea. Personally, I would go with cymbalta, if I had the choice. It really does help with the aches and pains associated with depression. It might make you a bit sleepy to start off with, but that goes away pretty quick. I found that it really helped me sleep allot better.

Good luck and take care!

[mikells43]

yea cymbalta is given in PM clinics everywhere. also i talked to someone after i posed last who his wife went on Low Dose Naxtrolene(sp) and cut her pain meds in half cause of it.

[zenpunk]

This is a good thread. I've been rooting for you, Zenpunk, as I've read each post. I admire your determination, and I know its hard. Some people never even attempt what you are trying to do. So, no matter what, you've got a lot to be proud of!

Hang in there the best you can! And, the lexapro or cymbalta is a great idea. Personally, I would go with cymbalta, if I had the choice. It really does help with the aches and pains associated with depression. It might make you a bit sleepy to start off with, but that goes away pretty quick. I found that it really helped me sleep allot better.

Good luck and take care!

Thanks for your support! And sleeping is a great idea / side-effect. I am going to try to get an appointment for either Cymbalta or Effexor tomorrow.

[ZodiacKiller]

I've been following your thread with much interest, zenpunk, and wanna say "hang in there"---it's tough, no question. I'm basically right at the point where I always fail: down to 1-2mgs Subutex daily, and looking to jump off soon, but this is the hardest part. I use benzos sparingly, and that helps, but can be a double-edged sword too. Statistically it seems that most people have the hardest time right here at the end, me included. I hope to be completely clean (again) by next week, but who knows....

Again, hang in there--you can do it if your resolve is strong. I'm sure all here are rooting for ya....


ZK

[zenpunk]

7:30PM Sunday:

Legs hurting. Took more Motrin. Took vitamins. Gonna ride out the leg pain with some champaign (sorry kyuss - this time I have to numb - it hurts).

Tomorrow is another day.

[zenpunk]

BTW is 5HTP a good idea?

[mikells43]

for anxeity or to relax it will help u do that. i used to take it when i was addicted to benzos and the supply ran out. it took some of the edge off. use everything that u can get to lessen the pain of the battle.

[kyuss]

Kyuss: Why stay away from alcohol? Won't that help with the pain?



Not really,imo.
I just dehydrates
and nothing in this world
is worse than a hangover during WDs.
A glass or two of wine
with your bupe won't kill you tho.

[mikells43]

yea a hangover being dopesick does fucking suck .. i hated those.

[Duckfeet]

Yeah: I don't drink no more, I even go to AA, and for alcohol it seems to work, but it's been eight years now, so it's a good thing, as my trouble is that when I would drink, all my resolve to quit dope would go right out the window, I mean, it was like clockwork, second beer, I'd be on the phone, finding whatever dope was available...couldn't do it no more...

I kind of believe the guys who say that *now* when they try to jump, they get *way* down on dose of bupe, first, like .5 mg, or half of a half of a 2mg pill.... weird, but I know I tried to jump at 1mg, and day3-4 it was too much, but like everybody else says, it'll get better, just gotta hang in..best wishes to you!

[LorTabitha]

Hang in there! It sounds like you're doing a great job. It's not easy, but well worth it.

I have a couple suggestions for supplements if you're still looking around... My therapist scripts me Vitamin B (all forms - folic acid, B12, etc) and Fish Oil for mood enhancement (I have it scripted so my insurance will pay for it!) and I've been taking Effexor for almost 2 years now after failing on Paxil, Lexapro, etc. St. John's Wort is a great natural antidepressant, but it interacts with lots of meds/vitamins, so you need to make sure you check that it's okay with whatever else you're taking.

Vitamin C is an awesome immunity booster and melatonin helps your sleep patterns re-regulate. Kava is good too, in small amounts.

Kratom is a good way to feel well without trading addictions on really bad days. The tea tastes awful, but you get used to it and I kind of like it now in a strange kind of way. (kind of like it's my "punishment" for needing to get off opiates or something!) Chamomile tea is another nice relaxing ritual along with the warm bath everyone is suggesting.

Eating right is VERY important. Your immunity is going to be shot, so you have to give your body a fighting chance. Fruits and veggies along with good proteins at every meal, if possible.

Yes, cane sugar is MUCH better than corn syrup. Many people of European descent have corn allergies that they're not even aware of. Corn is in EVERYTHING prepackaged in America. (My nephew is severely allergic, so my family is super aware.) Raw cane sugar is way better for you. It even is better for diabetics than some of the alternatives, believe it or not! You can get good organic raw cane sugar at Trader Joe's or any similar shop. They are also starting to sell more and more things with sugar instead of corn syrup. Even Dr. Pepper has "reissued" their old formula with real sugar and lots of our local grocery stores here carry Mexican Coke products. yum!

If none of the above works, have some chocolate. Why not?!

[zenpunk]

DIARY MONDAY:

7AM took 4mg or 1/2 a pill along with 800mg Motrin
Had a dentist appointment. Was exhausted as hell in the morning but I had noticed that in the middle of the night when I got up a couple of times I felt better than I had in weeks. Still couldn't drive myself though so got a ride to the dentist and dozed off and on in the chair during the cleaning.

12PM Noticed the leg pain coming back so took some additional Motrin.
Also took vitamins and 5 HTP.

Feel like its time for a nap.

Tomorrow my "doctor" is considering altering my schedule to skipping dosing tomorrow, then dropping to 2mg or 1/4 a pill on Wednesday morning. What do you all think? I may go back to work on Wednesday or Thursday but the amount of work I would do would be minimal (sitting at a desk).

Also: What percentage of Suboxone dissipates in 24 hours? I'd like to make a chart where I chart the amount in my system from day to day.

[roxi*stardust]

http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=12670
Bupe half-Life graphs

[Black_Pony]

Hey Zen. I've read your whole play by play and I definitely feel for you! Detoxing off subs is something that will be in my future eventually too.

I hate waking up in the morning and crying! Being a guy, my experience is more like uncontrollable eye-watering instead of emotional sobbing, but if I dwell on my misery, I'm sure i could get to downright emotional sobbing pretty quick!

As far as drinking, I cant bring myself to do it when I'm dopesick. But if you can, go right ahead as long as you don't drink to the point of having a hangover. I think thats what you want to avoid. That and dehydrating yourself.

As far as skipping a day, I have always thought that would be acceptable being as how bupe has a substantial half life and it builds way up on your system. I did that the other day, and it turns out I definitely noticed the difference! Give it a try, but if worst comes to worst you can suck on a milligram or two.

Good luck and god bless! I hope you are well enough to go to work, gotta pay for those expensive-ass subs somehow.

[mikells43]

just talked to rickett benkiser and i mentioned making a smaller pill than 2mg, cause that would be alot easer to jump off of. they "knew nohting about that". keep calling them if u wanna dial 1877 suboxone. press opt 0 and tell them u want a smaller pill like a 1.5, 1, .5, .25mg pill. they should do it for us the fuckers

[born2lose]

just talked to rickett benkiser and i mentioned making a smaller pill than 2mg, cause that would be alot easer to jump off of. they "knew nohting about that". keep calling them if u wanna dial 1877 suboxone. press opt 0 and tell them u want a smaller pill like a 1.5, 1, .5, .25mg pill. they should do it for us the fuckers
tr00, just did it

[Inspektahdek]

5htp is better than any anti-depressant IMO, and IME but you cannot combine an anti-depressant with 5-htp because it will cause seratonin syndrome, not a good thing, try wiki if ya want. 5htp has been given and have had trials for people with depression in Europe and it has shown and I think atleast a few cases to work better in some or almost half if not a little more better than anti-depressants.

I would def not mess around with anti-depressants, but that's just me

I take 5htp especially after than Xciting evening and I feel fine as far for depression

[zenpunk]

Hopefully this works...I did a chart of my detox plan including tomorrow's plan of no use tomorrow. This includes the 24 hour degradation of Suboxone to my best estimate. And now I understand why my "doctor" wants to see if we can take a day off tomorrow. Pretty cool.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n113/vivigump/Designs/zenpunk.gif

[zenpunk]

Got an electric blanket to help with circulation problem from the knees down (leg pain was really my only problem). Worked like a champ. Didn't need to take any Motrin this morning. I am going to talk with the "doctor" at 9AM and tell him lets go for today being a 0 Sub day (my chart will look like above).

PS - If anyone wants the Excel spreadsheet and chart that automatically will chart your detox by filling in the doses per day, just PM me and I can email it to you.

[southernbelle]

Girl, I am *proud* of you!!

[reddragon3668]

Sounds like your doing better. That is great! You got allot of people rooting for you. I've looked forward to your every post, and hearing positive things is such good news. Keep it up. Your one step closer to your goal. I hope you keep feeling well today.

[limitless_euphoria]

Got an electric blanket to help with circulation problem from the knees down (leg pain was really my only problem). Worked like a champ. Didn't need to take any Motrin this morning. I am going to talk with the "doctor" at 9AM and tell him lets go for today being a 0 Sub day (my chart will look like above).

PS - If anyone wants the Excel spreadsheet and chart that automatically will chart your detox by filling in the doses per day, just PM me and I can email it to you.

E-mail it to me. I have a folder for reference stuff that would make a great addition.

And you know what, since I've been a silent reader of this thread... I'll chime in now with congradulations for making it so far and I'm sure there are some of us that are ENVIOUS that only wish they could taper! Let's see, my twin brother Fred has tried bupe, both detox only and l/t and he's quit H/whatever other opioid cold turkey, he's tried to taper off using other opiates e.g. oxy and hydrocodone+trams but bupe done right is the ticket, IMO. You're doing great, ZP!

[zenpunk]

DIARY TUESDAY:

0mg Suboxone
5HTP

Using the electric blanket, only thing that bothers me is my knees if I walk around otherwise my legs are 10x better.

My "doctor" called to check in on me at 10AM - said today as a no-dose day is a good idea. He can't wait to see my chart, etc. once I am clean.

On a sad note the couple who started me on this path went back to Heroin. I work with the guy and called him to see how he was doing and both him and his girlfriend are back on the wagon. I was kind of shocked but I guess I should have been surprised, the success rate is never good, is it? I mean this hasn't been my first attempt to quit, but I sure hope its my last. I only have so many times left in me.

[upstate_007]

DIARY TUESDAY:
I mean this hasn't been my first attempt to quit, but I sure hope its my last. I only have so many times left in me.

And all it takes is that one time to do it the right way. It sounds like you are going strong and are fully committed to quitting this time. That's no guarantee of success, but it's a great start.

I successfully kicked H 11 years ago and I am so glad I did. I am on opis now for pain control and the occasional recreation, but being a hardcore junky is a life that I never want to live again. I am not "clean" by a long shot, but I have not done H in 11 years and still going somewhat strong.

Have you thought about any 12 step support? I grew to loathe the meetings that I was mandated to go to, but when I was really early in my recovery I found them to be very useful. After a few months or so of not using H it was a real eye opener to see people come in fresh off the streets with a similar story to what I was going through. The 12 step thing is definitely not for everyone, but it may be worth a shot to see if you dig it.

[zenpunk]

And all it takes is that one time to do it the right way. It sounds like you are going strong and are fully committed to quitting this time. That's no guarantee of success, but it's a great start.

I successfully kicked H 11 years ago and I am so glad I did. I am on opis now for pain control and the occasional recreation, but being a hardcore junky is a life that I never want to live again. I am not "clean" by a long shot, but I have not done H in 11 years and still going somewhat strong.

Have you thought about any 12 step support? I grew to loathe the meetings that I was mandated to go to, but when I was really early in my recovery I found them to be very useful. After a few months or so of not using H it was a real eye opener to see people come in fresh off the streets with a similar story to what I was going through. The 12 step thing is definitely not for everyone, but it may be worth a shot to see if you dig it.

Congrats on the 11 years! Actually a week from Wednesday when I am almost completely off subs and walking around easier I am going to start attending SMART meetings (I am still on the couch as of now so tomorrow's meeting may be too soon). They are basically NA/AA without all the higher power stuff. As someone who practices Shamanism the Christian angle would be difficult for me. But I want the support group help for sure in addition to the therapist I already see.

[upstate_007]

That sounds like a good plan. The whole "higher power" thing really got to me too in the meetings. I always hated the "let go, and let god" thing to be a crock of shit. I got myself into the mess and it was up to me to get out of it. Laying the responsibility and fate in the hands of something/someone that I can't see seemed like a cop out to me.

Well, I sincerely hope that this goes well for you and that next week is a good one. If you need any encouragement or advice (for what its worth from a former H addict who is on opis again) feel free to PM me. I just earned the status to give and receive PMs here so I am all excited about it:D.

[zenpunk]

2PM - 5PM TUES: I'm shitting bright green - I mean luminescent and frequent! What does that mean? Other than that, legs and all else are still good.

[nick]

2PM - 5PM TUES: I'm shitting bright green - I mean luminescent and frequent! What does that mean? Other than that, legs and all else are still good.

It means that you shouldn't eat cheap fish tacos.

Keep going and much luck.

[mikells43]

keep going strong. tommorow is the no bupe day or is today? anyhow the higher power concept is only to learn how to follow anouther sort of will. my will gets me high, so if i follow anouther form of will i may not get high. alot of people blow it up, and make a mountian out of a mole hill but its as simple as that. the higher power is just something that u beleive in so that u dont follow ur own will. it gets easer too as u go on. thats all im saying about that. best wishes

[Mcdom]

Zen - Congratulations on making it this far!

You have cobbled together a great plan and your posting this in a diary form is an inspiration to many.

It's good that you have some choices as far as support groups - 12 step groups are good for some but they're not the only game in town.

Man - I don't know anything about green feces.

Oh - wait - what about that grape pop? Sometimes grape koolaid worked some kind of weird color changes on my son when he was a kid. Just a thought.

[zenpunk]

keep going strong. tommorow is the no bupe day or is today? anyhow the higher power concept is only to learn how to follow anouther sort of will. my will gets me high, so if i follow anouther form of will i may not get high. alot of people blow it up, and make a mountian out of a mole hill but its as simple as that. the higher power is just something that u beleive in so that u dont follow ur own will. it gets easer too as u go on. thats all im saying about that. best wishes

Today is the no bupe day - getting a little sore - had to break down and do 800mg motrin (and cry). But I'm gonna make it till tomorrow.

[GoddessofRATs]

You'll make it sweetie! I know it seems like forever till tomorrow will comes but imagine how good you'll feel once you take that bupe tomorrow morning, just focus on that.

I've been fallowing your diary and i think it's agreat idea. People who are going through what you're going through should do the same thing. We can learn from it. And people can use the diaries as a refference and stuff.

I only have done Bupes a few times and they made me feel all foggy, like when ya take to much cold medicine. They didn't really work for me but i may have taken them to early. I don't know. I still have some for emergency w/d, they're tucked away safe.

Good luck and please keep us updated.

GOR

[zenpunk]

I'm hurting a bit more now - wanna sleep tonight - do you think I should try some Benadyrl? Don't want to touch the Bupe - I'm so close.

[irish]

You might be shitting green because of the colouring in the grape soda. I'm glad that the electric blanket is working for you, they can be a life-saver.

[GoddessofRATs]

Yea Benadryl works pretty good for sleep. At least it does for me. I've used it a lot in w/d.

Are you making sure your drinking lots of fluids too?

GOR

[mikells43]

dont over do the benydril, for me it gives me restless legs only with 2 doses. it might not be a good idea if ur kinda in w/d cause of the restless legs allready plus u have leg issues. id stay away form it.

[Skript]

dont over do the benydril, for me it gives me restless legs only with 2 doses. it might not be a good idea if ur kinda in w/d cause of the restless legs allready plus u have leg issues. id stay away form it.

I agree.. I dont like Diphenhydramine when in wd... It makes the restless legs worse and more unbearable and painful... Ill also toss and turn for a couple hours..

[tptptp]

Zen I haven't had a chance to read this whole thread but the best bupe tapers are very short ones maybe like 4 days or so, a week or two will just switch your addiction over to bupe. If you use it for just like 4 days you should be over the worst of any short acting opiate WD without getting dependent on bupe. Even after a couple weeks kicking bupe probably wont be any easier than what you were on before, just probably much longer and not as painful.

There's no easy detox ticket with bupe either 4 days, maybe 5 is good of a low dose and then it's man up for mostly mental side effects. Good luck

[kyuss]

You're doing great ZP,
keep it up
one day at a time

[zenpunk]

DIARY WEDNESDAY:

Took the Benadryl before bed last night. It actually helped and though I know I wasn't feeling well I slept right through it.

7AM: As soon as the alarm went off I threw that 1/4 (2mg) of Suboxone under my tongue and slept till 9:30AM. I felt tired but good when I got up.

Today I actually went to work.

What does every one think of tptptp's post/opinion. Do you think I'm doing this right or should I cut things - even shorter? My plan covers just under 2 weeks of taper time. I have no plans of making it longer than that or increasing doses at any time. Even though yesterday was uncomfortable, nothing compares to how bad going CT from H was. I still think I need to go lower before I jump and I should stick to the plan, but I welcome everyone's opinions here.

[Slippin|Fallen]

damn girl keep it up. your actually giving me some hope. keep it rolling!

[Duckfeet]

I agree pretty much w/tp's take: shorter w/subs is better. Honestly, I'm mostly a failure w/subs, both at detox, and maintenance, and why--long story--I'm back on mdone, which I hate even more....

But subs, for detox, are great...only change I'd make, is *yes* only a few days, and drop pretty fast, *but* most people, including me, who jumped at *1* mg, seemed to have gotten too sick, even tho it doesn't feel, at 1mg, like u are doing anything, but by day three, I couldn't take it, and scrounged up a heroin connect...which was not best idea in the world....

But after that, I logged onto heroin-detox.com in the buprenorphene forum, and found that the successful ones had usually gone a couple days at 1/2 or even a quarter, then did it every other day, and then were able to jump...but most of those guys, who had long term experience w/subs, had negative things to say about it...

Too bad, really, since I really liked my sub doc--subutex, btw--and preferred the set-up *much* better than mdone clinic...and might actually try again, in spite of bad experience....

Anyway, that's my take, and best wishes to you...

DIARY WEDNESDAY:

Took the Benadryl before bed last night. It actually helped and though I know I wasn't feeling well I slept right through it.

7AM: As soon as the alarm went off I threw that 1/4 (2mg) of Suboxone under my tongue and slept till 9:30AM. I felt tired but good when I got up.

Today I actually went to work.

What does every one think of tptptp's post/opinion. Do you think I'm doing this right or should I cut things - even shorter? My plan covers just under 2 weeks of taper time. I have no plans of making it longer than that or increasing doses at any time. Even though yesterday was uncomfortable, nothing compares to how bad going CT from H was. I still think I need to go lower before I jump and I should stick to the plan, but I welcome everyone's opinions here.

[mikells43]

Zen I haven't had a chance to read this whole thread but the best bupe tapers are very short ones maybe like 4 days or so, a week or two will just switch your addiction over to bupe. If you use it for just like 4 days you should be over the worst of any short acting opiate WD without getting dependent on bupe. Even after a couple weeks kicking bupe probably wont be any easier than what you were on before, just probably much longer and not as painful.

There's no easy detox ticket with bupe either 4 days, maybe 5 is good of a low dose and then it's man up for mostly mental side effects. Good luck

I totally disagree with this statement. u do not by far switch addictions, hence trading one for anouther. sure if u live the same way, hang out with the same people who use, practice the same old addict behaviors and make absoultly no changes then yes u are just an addict that is not getting high.

if u go on bupe matenence and change everything about ur life, including friends, places, and things, and behaviors, thoughts, and whatever other addict chacteristic that you had then you are by far not trading one addiction for anouther, if u do everything above and take bupe, then it falls under the dependence catagory, or recovery with medical aide. but if u dont do any of that while taking bupe or on bupe matenence then u might as well just be getting high. here are some deffs to clairfy what i said...


Dependence
“dependence” by itself has little meaning in the field of addiction treatment. This is because currently the phrase “substance dependence” and “physical dependence” have very different meanings. Which “dependence” is someone referring to when the word is used alone in this context? Confusing the two could lead to a misunderstanding at best and a misdiagnosis at worse. There is some talk within the industry to bring back the word “addiction” to use in place of “substance dependence” in an effort to help with some of the confusion. For the time being we are stuck with two similar phrases with two very different meanings. Understanding the difference is essential.



Addict:
Slang for person with an addictive disorder. This stigmatizing term is demeaning because it labels a person by his/her illness. By making no distinction between the person and the disease, it denies the dignity and humanity of the individual. In addition, this label implies a permanency to the condition, leaving no room for a change in status.
Some “self-help” groups and addiction counselors feel the need to use the term to remind the patient that they have a problem. There is no evidence that such intentional humiliation is beneficial or that it outweighs the potential damage and increased difficulty in building back one’s self esteem.


Addiction:
A behavioral syndrome characterized by the repeated, compulsive seeking or use of a substance despite adverse social, psychological, and/or physical consequences, and a need for an increased amount of the substance, as time goes on, to achieve the same effect. Addiction is often (but not always) accompanied by physical dependence, a withdrawal syndrome, and tolerance.
The American Academy of Pain Medicine, the American Pain Society, and the American Society of Addiction Medicine recognize the following definitions and recommend their use: Addiction is a primary, chronic, neurobiologic disease, with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. It is characterized by behaviors that include one or more of the following: impaired control over drug use, compulsive use, continued use despite harm, and craving.

Substance Abuse:
Substance Abuse is defined as a maladaptive pattern of substance use leading to clinically significant impairment or distress as manifested by one (or more) of the following, occurring within a 12-month period:

Recurrent substance use resulting in a failure to fulfill major role obligations at work, school, or home (such as repeated absences or poor work performance related to substance use; substance-related absences, suspensions, or expulsions from school; or neglect of children or household).
Recurrent substance use in situations in which it is physically hazardous (such as driving an automobile or operating a machine when impaired by substance use)
Recurrent substance-related legal problems (such as arrests for substance related disorderly conduct)
Continued substance use despite having persistent or recurrent social or interpersonal problems caused or exacerbated by the effects of the substance (for example, arguments with spouse about consequences of intoxication and physical fights).With SUBSTANCE ABUSE the user has a choice: he/she uses in spite of illegal, unsafe consequences, or inappropriateness of the drinking/drugging experience. Opioid Abuse is a specific type of Substance Abuse.
The use of buprenorphine has been approved for the diagnosis of Opioid Dependence NOT Opioid Abuse. An accurate diagnosis is essential in determining what treatment if any is appropriate.


Substance Dependence:
The American Psychiatric Association uses the term “substance dependence” in place of “addiction” however the two terms are synonymous, or more precisely “substance dependence” = “substance addiction” (since gambling addiction is not substance dependence) and is defined as a maladaptive pattern of substance use leading to clinically significant impairment or distress.
To meet the criteria of Substance Dependence (addiction) as defined in the DSM-IV, a patient must meet 3 or more of the following occurring any time in the same 12-month period:

Tolerance, as defined by either of the following:
(a) A need for markedly increased amounts of the substance to achieve intoxication or the desired effect
or
(b) Markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of the substance.
Withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following:
(a) The characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance
or
(b) The same (or closely related) substance is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms.
The substance is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than intended.
There is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use.
A great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain the substance, use the substance, or recover from its effects.
Important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of substance use.
The substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the substance (for example, current cocaine use despite recognition of cocaine-induced depression or continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer
was made worse by alcohol consumption).Due to the resulting confusion between the terms "physical dependence" and "substance dependence" there is some talk within the industry of reintroducing the term "addiction" because it is better understood and may pose less chance of confusion.

[Duckfeet]

Sorry Mikell: and I always say you are a good example of the possibilities of Bupe: but me, I see it just like TP...it's just vocabulary man, and "strung out" is "strung out"...whether u function good on bupe, or with a shot of heroin daily, doesn't seem that different to me.

I know why--kind of--u think that way, and I respect people who use bupe or methadone or heroin maintenance, or just plain docshopping, and try to do something so they aren't total junky monsters....

*but*

YOu wait until u kick that shit...*then* u tell me it's not the same old thing, just different packaging...cost me five thousand bucks and some change to find that out, but anyway, I alway wish you well, and I know I go--or used to go--to another forum where they insist on the differnce between "addiction" and "drug dependance" and "maintenance" on methadone, and want to use insulin and all kind of stuff as examples...

Respectfully: I disagree... and I know we can swap quotes and definitions all day long...but as long as my drug of choice--heroin--is illegal in this country, we'll never reallly know, in my libertarian opinion....

Just because bupe doesn't give u a buzz, and u--like me--go to meetings and stuff, doesn't mean we aren't two peas in the junky pod....

Yah know I love yah tho, and I"m glad yer on here...but on this one, "I don't think so..."

[zenpunk]

Miklls43 you have given me a lot to think about. For starters, in terms of changing my life, I have begun that process already. I have to say it was tough this morning when one of my friends came waltzing in, eyes like pinpoints talking about the fantastic weekend in the city they are all going to have (which includes some heavy H use along with other activities). Its a fine line because I don't want to be a bitch on her high-horse ever, but I don't want temptation around every turn either. I told the guy the event they were going to sounded great and that I had read about it in the New York Times but I wasn't going to be able to make it, that no I didn't want any dope and that I was cleaning up. I spoke to a couple of my other friends as well and just kind of kept it really light saying that I was changing and that I just don't want them to talk about it in front of me. I'm sure these people will scatter from me like I'm the plague now but I wanted to leave the door open for anything other than H (like just being friends and doing things together). Unfortunately, in these situations, usually that is the only thing you all have in common, however. I do have a few close friends who are not consumers.

In terms of dependence, I know there is definitely a physical dependence there at present. Yesterday's diary is proof of that. I know that I must try to balance comfort with time. With the current plan every third day I must endure some discomfort as I taper downward. I need these "breaks" in-between where I feel okay.

In terms of abuse, I have no plans of abusing subs by definition and I am well aware there is is the propensity. Really, according to my schedule, I have only a couple of doses left, and a week from tomorrow will be my last dose. What I may do is look at my spreadsheet and taper curve and see if I can't make the jump from a lower platform like as follows:

Thurs: 2mg
Fri: 0mg
Sat: 1 mg
Sun: 0 mg
Mon: 1 mg
Tues: 0 mg
Wed: 0 mg
Thurs: .5 mg (really just a chip)
Done

The curve would look as follows:

[Duckfeet]

I tell u: that sure looks like a good taper plan to me, and even the guys I know that hate bupe, tend to look for tapers like this to work...so I wish u all the best...

And also glad u saw the good use in Mikell's post: he takes flack often on here for trying to do the right thing, is always willing to help people, and make for a better life, which some of us treat scornfully, but he is living proof that u can do this shit, and have a good life...we just disagree on details...




<snip>

In terms of abuse, I have no plans of abusing subs by definition and I am well aware there is is the propensity. Really, according to my schedule, I have only a couple of doses left, and a week from tomorrow will be my last dose. What I may do is look at my spreadsheet and taper curve and see if I can't make the jump from a lower platform like as follows:

Thurs: 2mg
Fri: 0mg
Sat: 1 mg
Sun: 0 mg
Mon: 1 mg
Tues: 0 mg
Wed: 0 mg
Thurs: .5 mg (really just a chip)
Done

The curve would look as follows:

[mikells43]

i do know people who have came off of it successfully. personally im not ready to go off of anything yet, i have a great doctor that does not care about money. this stuff has changed my life. im sure if i hang in there and when im ready to go off it, its not going to even be a "kick". ill just taper off and be done. mabey go on some Low dose naxtrolene for a few months and there have it. i dont look months ahead. i feel that people who do look too far ahead and are in recovery somehow poision their preception on the now. now i feel great, i am in recovery with medical aide(the bupe). and my life has made a 180 degree turn. i have noticed lately i have been talking on here on some boards that i should not be on so im going to work on not going to them, cause im not a junkie anymore, ill allways be an addict but i dont live the lifestyle. personally i think by the time i go off of bupe (or if i ever go off of it soon), that ill do just fine. withdrawl is somewhat controled by the persons brain who is w/ding. we all kno that and we all have done it, for instance say ur very sick and havn't had anything in 24 hours, your dope man calls u tells u what he has, and BANG right after that call u feel 50% better, all by a fucking phone call, the brain is a powerful thing to do that when just right before then u were so ill u couldnt even get up to puke.

sometimes it all has to be about mind control and where u want ur life to go, how did the old guys get off of dope before bupe hell before methadone, they did it, and some are still talking about it today if they are alive(died b/c of age, nat causes not drug related). anyone can get clean and stay clean, anyone can do it, its so simple to do and its already written out and theres foolproof plans out there, its just how bad u want it that determines if u will hang in there for the long run.

opiates have a very low success rate of recovery, when alcoholism is below 5%, opiates are lower than that cause of the brain changes they cause. i once heard a cop say, he knows people with longtime clean time from cocaine, and other drugs but opiates and herion seem to be the toughies cause of that shit they do to ur brain. they can turn a normal person into a feind in less than a month and that person could have no genetic predisposition to any kind of addiction in his/her family tree at all, thats just how it works sometimes tho.

when it comes down to it. recovery does not mean how many meetings u go to, how well u kno the books. recovery to me means being happy, being able to live in my own skin and experence all of the wide range of human emotions without thinking of numbing them away with a drug. i got on bupe so that i could work on myself and be sorta normal without any paws or shit like that, so far so good.

and if anyone wishes to pm me i can talk about getting better all damn day, it dont matter to me.

[mikells43]

I tell u: that sure looks like a good taper plan to me, and even the guys I know that hate bupe, tend to look for tapers like this to work...so I wish u all the best...

And also glad u saw the good use in Mikell's post: he takes flack often on here for trying to do the right thing, is always willing to help people, and make for a better life, which some of us treat scornfully, but he is living proof that u can do this shit, and have a good life...we just disagree on details...


thanks for that:)

[zenpunk]

Well I have my pieces all cut up for the new taper (cutting up the last pill - hooray). I will follow this new plan unless I run into serious unanticipated problems. Tonight I went out for appetizers at Bonefish Grill with a friend and for the first time in a long time I felt happy and ok on my own steam. The key I know is not to get bored and, believe me, this board is a huge help with that.

[nick]

Well I have my pieces all cut up for the new taper (cutting up the last pill - hooray). I will follow this new plan unless I run into serious unanticipated problems. Tonight I went out for appetizers at Bonefish Grill with a friend and for the first time in a long time I felt happy and ok on my own steam. The key I know is not to get bored and, believe me, this board is a huge help with that.

In the next day or two,I'm leaving for a while.So before I went I just wanted to wish you much luck.


Remember with kicking that it's the trying that counts and everytime you try.......you get closer to peace.

[GoddessofRATs]

So Zen, would you say the Subs have been a god-send and/or a life-saver for you? OR would you just say that they work and that's about it and that subs isn't a miracle like some people say. Some people say Subs are a god send while others say they suck. I really didn't have enough experience with them to say subs are one thing or another. But, I'm curious to know what you think, were they a god-send, a miracle?

I figure some point in the future I'll have to go on them. I mean, i don't plan on quiting any time soon. The only reason I'd go on subs is that if I'm forced to quit or i finally come to a point in my life where i don't want to live like this anymore. Ya jsut never know what you'll be feeling like a year from now, 2 years. I have no clue what I'll be feeling than, for all i know i may want to quit but right now i don't. But, i know I'll have to go on subs someday, probably just to keep me going when i am out of my doc's. I don't even have enough subs to do a long taper, i just have enough to help for like 2-3 days.

If it ever came to the point where i wanted to quit all of it, I'd probably see if i could try methadone first and i only say that because the Subs made me feel very nasty, but i can't say if that was early w/d's or side affects from the pills. I was only on them 24 hours so i can't really say what it was but the feeling i got from them was nasty. So, when i ever decide to quit, I'd find a doc and try Methadone first. That is if i can find a doc willing to treat me with methadone. If i ever wanted to quit all I'd have to do is make an apt with my pain docs associate (my pain docs boss). He's not only a pm doc but an addiciton specialist but from what I've heard he goes the subs route. So i know i have the resources if i want to quit but i don't think my doc uses methadone.

Anyway.... I digress, I was jsut curious if they were a god-send for ya.

[zenpunk]

So Zen, would you say the Subs have been a god-send and/or a life-saver for you? OR would you just say that they work and that's about it and that subs isn't a miracle like some people say. Some people say Subs are a god send while others say they suck. I really didn't have enough experience with them to say subs are one thing or another. But, I'm curious to know what you think, were they a god-send, a miracle?

I figure some point in the future I'll have to go on them. I mean, i don't plan on quiting any time soon. The only reason I'd go on subs is that if I'm forced to quit or i finally come to a point in my life where i don't want to live like this anymore. Ya jsut never know what you'll be feeling like a year from now, 2 years. I have no clue what I'll be feeling than, for all i know i may want to quit but right now i don't. But, i know I'll have to go on subs someday, probably just to keep me going when i am out of my doc's. I don't even have enough subs to do a long taper, i just have enough to help for like 2-3 days.

If it ever came to the point where i wanted to quit all of it, I'd probably see if i could try methadone first and i only say that because the Subs made me feel very nasty, but i can't say if that was early w/d's or side affects from the pills. I was only on them 24 hours so i can't really say what it was but the feeling i got from them was nasty. So, when i ever decide to quit, I'd find a doc and try Methadone first. That is if i can find a doc willing to treat me with methadone. If i ever wanted to quit all I'd have to do is make an apt with my pain docs associate (my pain docs boss). He's not only a pm doc but an addiciton specialist but from what I've heard he goes the subs route. So i know i have the resources if i want to quit but i don't think my doc uses methadone.

Anyway.... I digress, I was jsut curious if they were a god-send for ya.

The big thing with subs is you have to be dope sick before you start them...otherwise you will feel sicker. And the first 2 days on subs I genuinely felt lousy, but it was bearable. But, I can better answer your question when I jump for good. This thread is not going to be over in a week or 2 weeks (unless the mods shut it down for some kind of time expiration). I want to check in after I jump every couple weeks for the next month or two and tell you what I really think of life post Heroin - how I dealt with the boredom, how was the final sub kick, etc., so please keep reading.

[zenpunk]

In the next day or two,I'm leaving for a while.So before I went I just wanted to wish you much luck.


Remember with kicking that it's the trying that counts and everytime you try.......you get closer to peace.

Thanks, nick, I'll see you when I get back...and its my best hope to still be on track.

[pharmboy]

Good going Zen I'm proud of you.

If It all gets too much consider Valium or for sleep or to just calm down
Clonidine.
When I quit they helped big time, I went back to opiates but I'm
not addicted to Valium or Clonidine at least.
You know yourself best.
Good luck , keep up the Good work.

[zenpunk]

DIARY THURSDAY:

9AM: Took 2mg (1/4) and went to work.
Got stuck in traffic for 2 hours, which is never good when you have a stick-shift. My legs are killing me now and I have the heat blasting on them from under the desk. It's sad that had to happen because tomorrow is a no-dose day.

I already let work know I will be leaving at 2PM tomorrow in case I start encountering problems in the afternoon like the last time I skipped a day on my taper downward. Saturday I will be taking 1mg (1/8). Fortunately I have a precision cutter that I use to cut little glass rods so I was able to cut up my last pill with ease, ready to go, even the .5mg dose at the end being pretty accurate. I wont even be using all of this pill.

In the end, if all of this works, this means I was able to come clean from a 3 stamp a day H habit (with a bunch of Valium and hydro thrown in) with literally less than 3 Suboxone pills! This really flies in the face of current prescription practices.

[zenpunk]

Also had a conversation with my boss and explained to him that I was having some health issues. Nicely, he suspended my travel schedule until I feel that I'm feeling better. That is a huge load off, my biggest fear was jumping and then being stuck somewhere in the middle of nowhere or out of the country feeling very sick all of the sudden.

[Inspektahdek]

good luck with your regimen zen, hope all works for you, you're much more courageous than me at the moment, massive respect goes to you :D

[irish]

I wish I had your kind of will-power. You're doing great, keep up the good work!

[mikells43]

i have anouther chunk of advice for u man. success does not depend upon willpower. success depends upon how well u program urself by changing ur habits and activities. one can have all the willpower in the world but if its put in front of u, u have to rely on what u put in ur head, and walk away not sit there and stare it and say i have the willpower not to use cause if u get in that situation in an unsure mood or ur pissed, who knows whats going to go down.

[roxi*stardust]

2PM - 5PM TUES: I'm shitting bright green - I mean luminescent and frequent! What does that mean? Other than that, legs and all else are still good.

You might be shitting green because of the colouring in the grape soda. I'm glad that the electric blanket is working for you, they can be a life-saver.
Zen great to hear things are going well. Irish is right on about the grape soda. Anything purple colored will make your shit green. It happened to my hubby with some purple gatorade. He was freaking so we googled and sure enough the culprit: purple colored foods and beverages. Sounds like everything is going well. Have you started a vitamin supplement? You know none of us eat right and getting the proper nutrition is a must. I am currently taking Centrum and I must say I have noticed a difference especially with my energy level and sleep cycles. Good Luck! And keep us updated. You are a very strong person and sound very determined to make this work so I have no doubt in my mind that you will defeat this!!

[zenpunk]

DIARY FRIDAY:

0mg Suboxone.
Took some 5 HTP (100mg)

Actually this diary is what is giving me the momentum and willpower more than anything else. So thanks to anyone who is taking the time to read it - I appreciate it - that way I feel I am doing this all for something bigger than myself.

Yeah, when I stopped the grape soda, the shit returned to normal. Funny how that works.

Everything went wrong today, got a flat on the way to work, pulled out my cellphone and it was dead. Fortunately a really nice guy stopped and put the little donut tire on the car. He was a big tough, rough Bronx guy, a guy I would normally meet in my old life, even though I'm a tiny little white girl. Alls I can say is - bless you wherever you are - when I said I was getting over being sick if only you knew...

So I feel like hell now after all that excitement, I can feel my legs moving on their own and I have the heat cranking on them.

But that 1mg chip is for tomorrow morning.....and so it shall be.

[upstate_007]

I am definitely still reading the updates Zen. I think it is so awesome that you have plowed through these hard days and are still going strong. Keep on keepin on and let us know how you're doing along the way.

[zenpunk]

i have anouther chunk of advice for u man. success does not depend upon willpower. success depends upon how well u program urself by changing ur habits and activities. one can have all the willpower in the world but if its put in front of u, u have to rely on what u put in ur head, and walk away not sit there and stare it and say i have the willpower not to use cause if u get in that situation in an unsure mood or ur pissed, who knows whats going to go down.

This is too true and unfortunately I do work with someone who is a consumer. Last night I knew he was getting a "special delivery" (as we got paid) and I heard the receptionist say who was on the phone when she paged him and it was the name of one of his suppliers (can you believe that shit). Well I started getting pissed and started thinking about how boring it is to go home to that empty house and boring tv and how much fun doing a lot of nothing is on good 'ol H. And I jumped up, turned my laptop off and got the hell out of there as fast as I could.

[Nate]

I am so proud, keep up the great work!

[OxyContinuously]

Zen, u should be feeling a lot better by now, no?

ur doing well, so don't stop now, good job.:D

[zenpunk]

Actually I still don't feel great, it all takes time I guess. Tomorrow I jump down to 1mg and start skipping more days and finish at .5mg on Thursday. Though I wonder, should I jump to 0 from here? Last dose was 2mg yesterday at 9am. I could just hunker down for the weekend and see what happens.

This is what I have left:
Sat: 1 mg
Sun: 0 mg
Mon: 1 mg
Tues: 0 mg
Wed: 0 mg
Thurs: .5 mg (really just a chip)
Done

[kyuss]

I'm make
monday and wednesday
both .5 days
but you're doing great.

[OxyContinuously]

yeah, I agree w/ kyuss^^^

[zenpunk]

I'm make
monday and wednesday
both .5 days
but you're doing great.

I ran it through the spreadsheet (lol) and, damn if it doesn't work better! That's how well do it, then I'll be tapering (the final taper) down from having only .75mg in my system. I am doing a taper of over a mg today so after Wed that should be manageable.

[OxyContinuously]

I ran it through the spreadsheet (lol) and, damn if it doesn't work better! That's how well do it, then I'll be tapering down from having only .75mg in my system. I am doing a taper of over a mg today so after Wed that should be manageable.

ur doing really well, though, which is good ;-)

yeah, u should be good after the .75mg taper, and before u know it, you'll be at 0mg---> even better

Quick quest: I know u said u were doing the bup to detox and such, but i was going to ask, are you going to maintain on anything after ur finished tapering? Or are you leaving opiates behind for good??

Because both options are cool, don't get me wrong; I was just wondering what ur plans were, that's all. I recently got on the bup bandwagon, and I found that they kill WD quite well. Of course, like many others here, and elsewhere, I was severely over-prescribed; my doc gave me 60 8mg per month, with the instructions of 2 a day, one morning and one at night....Needless to say 16mg was so much that the first two days i was violently ill and thought I wasn't taking enough...turns out just the opposite: 16 a day was ridiculous, and even 8 was pushing it....So what I did was try 4mg snorted in the morn, and then 2mg snorted at night...THat worked quite well for me, I must say..See, I only got them as "anti withdrawal" in a bottle; I wasn't nor am I interested in a total "detox" but I must say, they do work wonders for sickness, and w/ the stockpile I have from my mammoth prescriptions, I'll be set for quite some time.

Sorry for the ramble, but my point wasthat i think u have a very good schedule, and remember with bupe, less definitely is more.

take it easy
oxy

[zenpunk]

I think I will have to stay away from opiates for a good long while, if not forever. For me personally it was an addiction that got out of hand and was affecting my entire world and outlook. I starting taking opiates because, honestly they worked so well to keep my PTSD under control. But in the end, fast forward two years and I ended up with a huge habit, selling everything I owned left and right, declining job performance and a nagging feeling in the back of my head that I really wasn't curing anything, I was just doping myself up beyond feeling and was keeping myself so busy trying to get high that there was really no time for PTSD. My memory that was razor sharp, photographic, was fuzzy at best (another reason why it probably helps with PTSD, PTSD is all about traumatic memories "bleeding through).

Really, I think I may have been onto something, if there was no such thing as tolerance. In the beginning it was wonderful (it always is). Take a third of a stamp and I could face half my family with a smile on my face. Take a half of a stamp and I could go to the neighborhood picnic and be the life of the party. I went from being "that weird person" to "everyone's favorite neighbor and friend". Goes to show you, people sense what's going on in your head and for me the dark cloud was gone and people saw nothing but sunshine thanks to my fab new boyfriend H.

But what H gives, it takes away with a vengeance and 6 months later I was slipping down a slope into the pit of hell and the hysteria began to break its way through. Still, I wonder if there aren't some lessons to be learned here. Like can medical science invent a similar cure for PTSD that doesn't send you to hell in the end? There are talks about studies and supposedly hospital studies in progress, but these studies seem to be invisible and its impossible to find a doctor to prescribe anything off-label (like the blood pressure med that was mentioned on 60 minutes a year ago).

Sadly, all this for me was just a quest to be normal. And, as I see reality emerging through the haze now I wonder if it is even possible. But, at least now I know for me Heroin is not the answer.

[zenpunk]

3:30PM: Home under the electric blanket. Legs are hurting but getting some relief.

It was just as well I went home, work has become unbearable. When you are in a fog for years its strange to see people in real light - its like you don't even know them at all. mikells43 is right...I do need to change my life I feel.

[mikells43]

its deff not easy, but it is doable. i kno people who have kicked dope the old fashion way and are normaml today. they do attend support groups and i dont have to say what they are lol. there are other ways tho, i dont kno of any other ways to get started in the lifestyle changing process. the ways i have been taught were taught to me by other recovering addicts, and alcoholics that have done it before me. its a brutal process that requires your full attn and ability. it can be done tho thats the impt thing. one dude i kno that has 9 years clean kicked 220mg of methadone, he just was sick of the life and was ready to make the changes so he stopped going to the clinic and went to inpt to detox and followed up at outpt, now he works in treatment even tho he has a felony on his record he is still able to help others that are in need. I do reccommend that if times get too tough and are beyond your control, that you seek out help asap no matter what resource it is, make sure the resource has delt with ur situation before and knows what to do. i kno a kid that detoxed and he had 110 days clean,, and then went on bupe cause he couldnt handle his life the way it was anymore he was depressed and just in the throughs of paws. please dont make dope an option for urself, it is not the quick fix at all.

[zenpunk]

That's what I worry about ... the depression. And at work I've really changed already and everyone hates me. I used to be the office doormat and I've turned into a first rate bitch, telling people off left and right when they try the usual walk over me. But this makes me feel awful just the same.

[Duckfeet]

We're lucky you're here, Mikell. I know u take some grief once in a while, but at least u show people that it is possible, as too often on here it's people who like it, backsliders or bitter "can't get off the shit" guys like me...most people if they get totally off dope, don't come back, cuz it tempts'em too much to be here. I know last time I tried to kick, I had to get away, when I did the Bupe Detox, w/the Palm Beach clinic....didn't work, and I haven't really been rite since. I get so frustrated w/methadone, but just don't seem able to muster up the serious desire to get off it...I mean, I *want* off it, and still go to meetings and stuff, and haven't drank in years....but just doesn't seem to be there for me, anymore....I keep figuring it'll come back, but u know how it is, without the desire really strong, it's tough to hang in there...just feel beat...

I was looking today at the different programs at the clinic, and i"m thinking of switching to the six month detox, in january, maybe I could stick to that, and from 50mg, outta be doable, rite? Cuz I"ve tried all the quick detoxes, and subs, and none of'em seemed to work for me...and this is longest I've *ever* been on methadone...

Oh well, glad u stick around...


its deff not easy, but it is doable. i kno people who have kicked dope the old fashion way and are normaml today. they do attend support groups and i dont have to say what they are lol. there are other ways tho, i dont kno of any other ways to get started in the lifestyle changing process. the ways i have been taught were taught to me by other recovering addicts, and alcoholics that have done it before me. its a brutal process that requires your full attn and ability. it can be done tho thats the impt thing. one dude i kno that has 9 years clean kicked 220mg of methadone, he just was sick of the life and was ready to make the changes so he stopped going to the clinic and went to inpt to detox and followed up at outpt, now he works in treatment even tho he has a felony on his record he is still able to help others that are in need. I do reccommend that if times get too tough and are beyond your control, that you seek out help asap no matter what resource it is, make sure the resource has delt with ur situation before and knows what to do. i kno a kid that detoxed and he had 110 days clean,, and then went on bupe cause he couldnt handle his life the way it was anymore he was depressed and just in the throughs of paws. please dont make dope an option for urself, it is not the quick fix at all.

[mikells43]

those quick detoxes that are for "busness people",, "housewifes/mothers",, and other people who have it in their heads that they can't take time out to get well are rip offs. did u do an anstesia detox? where they put u asleep in the icu with a tube in ur throat on a vent, when u wake up ur in total paws cause of the nalxoone infusions and other shit they give u to supposedlly clean ur system. they are cracking down on those. they just busted a bev hills detox doctor who promised patients opiate free lives and did that bullshit detox and when they came back he was giving them more dope than ever. its the same guy who perscribed Ozzy all those meds during the osbournes, thats why he was all fucked up during the shows lol. heres his link http://www.davidkippermd.com/curingaddiction.html (http://www.davidkippermd.com/curingaddiction.html) his bupe prog costs 10GRAND for 6 months.. thats a fucking rip off. theres also those other places like the wisemann place who has made millons of of desperate people that jsut wanna live a better lilfe and not be addicted. poor people got suckered, but they are sueing and getting their life savings back that those places stole off of them. theres really no quick fix for opiate addiciton, even suboxone/subutex has its unsuccessful times and people that are non-complient cause of this stubborn disease. i had to do alot of adjusting when on bupe to make it, cause i loved benzos too and still could take them but i am adjusted now to not take anything that is mind altering (except bupe) and lifes good. even people talking about all those things on the other forums on here dont bother me.

[zenpunk]

mikells43 if you don't mind me asking - what do you take and how often (if you haven't said already). I know its going to be a long bumpy ride even with the last dose being Wednesday.

[Duckfeet]

I don't know...what I figure, is after Christmas, and all the family stuff, to try to drop down again, to 30mg--I'm at 50mg--and during that time, I"ll think about subs, again, see if I think they might work...the other option is just to switch over from "maintenance" which I'm on, to the *slower* detox, which will cost me more or less the same--$300 a month--but that way it'd be a slow detox, six months should be plenty of time to drop from 30mg...I know it's the last 10mg that are the doozy, but we'll see..

But yes, June a year and a half ago, I have that paragliding accident. Up until then I was seven years sober, in AA, pretty happy, all in all, but got in hospital, had severe concussion, and really don't remember much, except feeling *really* good when I"d get my shot, and when I found out it was dilaudid...well, I have serious drug conviction for dilaudid, and in the south, it was the heroin of my time, before oxys...and I quickly figured I could get a shot every six hrs...and did, until they threw me out ;-)

So all last year and a half, I've fought it, gaven in to it, fought it, gaven in to it...finally on methadone, and hate that, then subs, didn't work too good, back mdone, back to subs, back to mdonee...shit, I get tired just *typing* this shit....

And I know how whiny it sounds, and try to tuffen up about it, but I mean, I can't just say "Fuck it," since I have two felony convictions, and Calif gives out pretty much "life" if I get cracked out here...so I can't just contine *that* road...

And after I realized I couldn't stop myself, and got on lowdose mdone--30mg--to get off all the other shit, I remembered why I disliked mdone, and at that time still had quite a bit of money, so I spent five thousand bucks to a Palm Beach clinic, where they just about guaranteed they'd get me off methadone, and drug free. They flew me out there, gave me 80mg oxys (40, twice daily) for a week, then on subutex, for a quick detox--just a few weeks....

I stuck w/the program, and got down to 1mg sub, and jumped, and tried my damndest...but at day three, I couldn't take it no more, and turned to tar...and well, same thing back and forth, finally spent all my money, and got on mdone maint...but as usual, the constipation, and just general lethargy and stuff...just doesn't feel rite, if u know what I mean...

oh well, can't give up...don't even know where I"m going with this, but anyway, "thanks for listening" :)


those quick detoxes that are for "busness people",, "housewifes/mothers",, and other people who have it in their heads that they can't take time out to get well are rip offs. did u do an anstesia detox? where they put u asleep in the icu with a tube in ur throat on a vent, when u wake up ur in total paws cause of the nalxoone infusions and other shit they give u to supposedlly clean ur system. they are cracking down on those. they just busted a bev hills detox doctor who promised patients opiate free lives and did that bullshit detox and when they came back he was giving them more dope than ever. its the same guy who perscribed Ozzy all those meds during the osbournes, thats why he was all fucked up during the shows lol. heres his link http://www.davidkippermd.com/curingaddiction.html (http://www.davidkippermd.com/curingaddiction.html) his bupe prog costs 10GRAND for 6 months.. thats a fucking rip off. theres also those other places like the wisemann place who has made millons of of desperate people that jsut wanna live a better lilfe and not be addicted. poor people got suckered, but they are sueing and getting their life savings back that those places stole off of them. theres really no quick fix for opiate addiciton, even suboxone/subutex has its unsuccessful times and people that are non-complient cause of this stubborn disease. i had to do alot of adjusting when on bupe to make it, cause i loved benzos too and still could take them but i am adjusted now to not take anything that is mind altering (except bupe) and lifes good. even people talking about all those things on the other forums on here dont bother me.

[zenpunk]

Duckfeet that's the part I'm so nervous about - even jumping from .5, Day 3 hits me and I freak. I remember well Day 3 CT from Heroin - I damn near died. And that was a week ago yesterday.

[Duckfeet]

Yeah: I wish I could remember how I did it the other times...sure sems harder than it used to...and I think, now I know right where the clinic is, and that I can get "well," it's hard to stay sick... well, whenever I *really* wanted off the shit, I"d go over to heroin-detox.com, usually to the sub forum, since they really encourage you, and help u out, if yer tryiing to kick, and I find that helps a lot.

And on the subs, the guys that succesfuly got off, *did* eat just .5 mg daily, and then every other day: I don't think u should have any problem...but again, sometimes it's good to go to a site where it's strictly aimed at detox, because over here, the old craving really kicks in...but u know how it is...you *don't* did from kicking, and sooner or later, it passes, and u feel better...just gotta get thru that first week, the start to feel better, once in a while, then regularly...

Best wishes to u, tho, I've got a feeling you're going to make it, and I sure hope so....


Duckfeet that's the part I'm so nervous about - even jumping from .5, Day 3 hits me and I freak. I remember well Day 3 CT from Heroin - I damn near died. And that was a week ago yesterday.

[zenpunk]

Had to take my second shower, feeling pretty sore. So I will keep to the original plan as modified by Kyruss. 1mg tomorrow morning, .5 Mon and .5 Wed and jump. Thankfully that little glass cutter can cut the pieces that small.

[GoddessofRATs]

I'm very proud of you Zen, your doing great sista'!!!

I have no plans on quiting but i have respect for people who do quit or give it a try. I have respect for people who are like me as well and don't plan on quiting. The addiction/Drug life is a hard life so i respect the shit out of most of you all lol. Really, it isn't an easy life at all. We've picked a hard road for ourselves.

Take care. Look forward to hearing about your progress. This diary is a great idea!!

GOR

[zenpunk]

I know, like I said earlier today if I could live forever in the honeymoon phase of Heroin I would. Sadly the road got very very hard and I had to quit. The day before I realized it when I had a major meltdown at work, ran out and blew through additional 3 bags like it was nothing (and this was some of the strongest NYC stuff I had gotten in months). I also realized that the reason I started Heroin was lost and I had to stop.

I still plan on hanging out here regardless of whether I touch another opiate again because I will always love opiates, even sober.

[tptptp]

I totally disagree with this statement. u do not by far switch addictions, hence trading one for anouther. sure if u live the same way, hang out with the same people who use, practice the same old addict behaviors and make absoultly no changes then yes u are just an addict that is not getting high.

if u go on bupe matenence and change everything about ur life, including friends, places, and things, and behaviors, thoughts, and whatever other addict chacteristic that you had then you are by far not trading one addiction for anouther, if u do everything above and take bupe, then it falls under the dependence catagory, or recovery with medical aide. but if u dont do any of that while taking bupe or on bupe matenence then u might as well just be getting high. here are some deffs to clairfy what i said...


Dependence
“dependence” by itself has little meaning in the field of addiction treatment. This is because currently the phrase “substance dependence” and “physical dependence” have very different meanings. Which “dependence” is someone referring to when the word is used alone in this context? Confusing the two could lead to a misunderstanding at best and a misdiagnosis at worse. There is some talk within the industry to bring back the word “addiction” to use in place of “substance dependence” in an effort to help with some of the confusion. For the time being we are stuck with two similar phrases with two very different meanings. Understanding the difference is essential.



Addict:
Slang for person with an addictive disorder. This stigmatizing term is demeaning because it labels a person by his/her illness. By making no distinction between the person and the disease, it denies the dignity and humanity of the individual. In addition, this label implies a permanency to the condition, leaving no room for a change in status.
Some “self-help” groups and addiction counselors feel the need to use the term to remind the patient that they have a problem. There is no evidence that such intentional humiliation is beneficial or that it outweighs the potential damage and increased difficulty in building back one’s self esteem.


Addiction:
A behavioral syndrome characterized by the repeated, compulsive seeking or use of a substance despite adverse social, psychological, and/or physical consequences, and a need for an increased amount of the substance, as time goes on, to achieve the same effect. Addiction is often (but not always) accompanied by physical dependence, a withdrawal syndrome, and tolerance.
The American Academy of Pain Medicine, the American Pain Society, and the American Society of Addiction Medicine recognize the following definitions and recommend their use: Addiction is a primary, chronic, neurobiologic disease, with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. It is characterized by behaviors that include one or more of the following: impaired control over drug use, compulsive use, continued use despite harm, and craving.

Substance Abuse:
Substance Abuse is defined as a maladaptive pattern of substance use leading to clinically significant impairment or distress as manifested by one (or more) of the following, occurring within a 12-month period:

Recurrent substance use resulting in a failure to fulfill major role obligations at work, school, or home (such as repeated absences or poor work performance related to substance use; substance-related absences, suspensions, or expulsions from school; or neglect of children or household).
Recurrent substance use in situations in which it is physically hazardous (such as driving an automobile or operating a machine when impaired by substance use)
Recurrent substance-related legal problems (such as arrests for substance related disorderly conduct)
Continued substance use despite having persistent or recurrent social or interpersonal problems caused or exacerbated by the effects of the substance (for example, arguments with spouse about consequences of intoxication and physical fights).With SUBSTANCE ABUSE the user has a choice: he/she uses in spite of illegal, unsafe consequences, or inappropriateness of the drinking/drugging experience. Opioid Abuse is a specific type of Substance Abuse.
The use of buprenorphine has been approved for the diagnosis of Opioid Dependence NOT Opioid Abuse. An accurate diagnosis is essential in determining what treatment if any is appropriate.


Substance Dependence:
The American Psychiatric Association uses the term “substance dependence” in place of “addiction” however the two terms are synonymous, or more precisely “substance dependence” = “substance addiction” (since gambling addiction is not substance dependence) and is defined as a maladaptive pattern of substance use leading to clinically significant impairment or distress.
To meet the criteria of Substance Dependence (addiction) as defined in the DSM-IV, a patient must meet 3 or more of the following occurring any time in the same 12-month period:

Tolerance, as defined by either of the following:
(a) A need for markedly increased amounts of the substance to achieve intoxication or the desired effect
or
(b) Markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of the substance.
Withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following:
(a) The characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance
or
(b) The same (or closely related) substance is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms.
The substance is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than intended.
There is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use.
A great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain the substance, use the substance, or recover from its effects.
Important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of substance use.
The substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the substance (for example, current cocaine use despite recognition of cocaine-induced depression or continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer
was made worse by alcohol consumption).Due to the resulting confusion between the terms "physical dependence" and "substance dependence" there is some talk within the industry of reintroducing the term "addiction" because it is better understood and may pose less chance of confusion.

I didn't read your whole post but you took what I said TOTALLY out of context. I don't get involved in the disease/not disease or the switching one addiction for another/or not so arguments.

If the goal is to kick - short bupe rides are best, pure and simple.

Again, what I was referring to had NOTHING to do with maintenance - it had to do with wanting to KICK and bupe to KICK after a couple weeks wont be much easier to kick than the previous DOC, just a different type of kick. It is trading one for another because after two weeks there will be a dependence on bupe whereas with 4 days if any will be mute.

If you use bupe for two weeks with the intentions of KICKING then you just switched a short very painful detox for a long and less painful (but still nasty) it's just switching to something different and you ARE addicted/dependent to it after a couple weeks.

By the way Mikells even though it wasn't what I was talking about most of what you go on to explain is largely because bupe is legal in many cases (Pretty much the same as if you could get an H user to use a weaker opiate that was legal), but my post was taken way out of context.

I also have quite a bit of experience with several attempts to taper/stop on subs so I'm not just talking about what I've read or what I think though I've discussed it with others who've done the same. I think two weeks is too long....it seems fine when the drops come fairly easy but in the end....Will a two week taper if done in small doses and its the first bupe taper of the persons be easier then kicking whatever they had been straight up? Quite possibly....but it's certainly not the best wya to go about it.

But anyways GL Zenpunk...not trying to bring you down, just sharing my experience. Hell I've heard of some crazy cases here and there where people have had no WD at all coming off of it after long periods...can't verify accuracy but maybe you'll get super lucky.

Anyways stay with it. What you're doing is likely gonna be easier than cold turkey.

One thing bupe is GREAT for & this goes BIG time if you feel OPK on it is dropping tolerance if you stay on a low dose it drops tolerance quick. So if all else fails that side is nice.

[zenpunk]

I'm one of those people that would rather rip the band-aid off slow instead of fast despite that its all painful, especially after 2 years of straight use.

[GoddessofRATs]

Good, I'm glad you don't plan on leaving us even though you are quiting. Your great to have around and i enjoy your posts

GOR

I know, like I said earlier today if I could live forever in the honeymoon phase of Heroin I would. Sadly the road got very very hard and I had to quit. The day before I realized it when I had a major meltdown at work, ran out and blew through additional 3 bags like it was nothing (and this was some of the strongest NYC stuff I had gotten in months). I also realized that the reason I started Heroin was lost and I had to stop.

I still plan on hanging out here regardless of whether I touch another opiate again because I will always love opiates, even sober.

[tptptp]

I'm one of those people that would rather rip the band-aid off slow instead of fast despite that its all painful, especially after 2 years of straight use.

I hear ya - I think that overall a 4, maybe 5 days bupe kick is likely the best especially from a short acting drug. Used as a real low dose for 4-5 days you wont likely be dependent on bupe yet and will also begin to mentally adjust. After that 4-5 days you should basically be left off with where you'd be 4-5 days after a WD and take it from there. the worst part of the WD should already have passed without much pain.

After 2 weeks you'll likely have switched from a pure opiate to a bupe WD. If it was your first time on bupe and you maintained a low dose though it might not be too bad. It's not the taper thats hard with bupe, it's the jump.

Overall, I'd say the jump is worse than going to the 4-5day after feeling.

Ether way good luck & hopefully you stick around but at the same time if you want to stay clean that's not a good idea IMO, but whatever workes for you & makes you happy. Much luck

[mikells43]

The one goal of bupe when used long term is to take you thru that period of PAWS painlessly so that you can work on yourself. when bupe is used short termly and for that "parachute effect" when coming off of opiates it can be affective for that way but the longer term matenence is showing more efficiancy. when more reasearch is complete we will have to see, i talked to one bupe doctor who insists that there is a period during long term matenence that you cross that line from ur brain being addicted and or dependent to a normal brain that is similar to "pre Opiate use". No one knows where that line is, and of course everyones diff. I dont kno about anyone else but im a sucker for paws, thats what takes me back out each and every time i tried to ever quit using for over a week. i just canot function. i choose to go on bupe matenence to get my life back in order and not be miserable all the time. When i first started bupe i was on suboxone, i took 24-32mg a day. somedays 24 some 32. when i got on subutex i cut that in half. i dont want to duscuss my dose online cause i dont kno who is watching.

i will come off in time, right now i have a great doctor that is very in-expensive and she actually gives a shit about u. right now im not in paws, im not using, im changing my life and things are Fucking Great. Beyond my wildest dreams, thats really how i feel honestly. i am not rich, i dont have a car, but i have the best thing there ever is and thats me.

like i was saying above the short term bupe uses are being shown that they are insufficant enough for the person to get the full benifit form the medicine. the goal is for the person to take it so they feel normal and continue to take it until they feel comfy to come off of it, and it lets ur brain rebuild from the shit that it lost. that could be 1 year or could be 5 years who knows. but i kno that im not going off of it anytime soon and as long as my life continues to head in this direction then great. i treat my addiction with a medication, just like the lady down the road treats her diabetis with insulin. i think pretty soon its going to become the standard in treating opiate addiciton with bupe in the matenence sort of way. cause its showing very good results for those who stay on it and do the next right thing, not those who use it to stop the w/d druing a dry spree, thats not what it is intended for. sorry about blabbing.

[mikells43]

I didn't read your whole post but you took what I said TOTALLY out of context. I don't get involved in the disease/not disease or the switching one addiction for another/or not so arguments.

If the goal is to kick - short bupe rides are best, pure and simple.

Again, what I was referring to had NOTHING to do with maintenance - it had to do with wanting to KICK and bupe to KICK after a couple weeks wont be much easier to kick than the previous DOC, just a different type of kick. It is trading one for another because after two weeks there will be a dependence on bupe whereas with 4 days if any will be mute.

If you use bupe for two weeks with the intentions of KICKING then you just switched a short very painful detox for a long and less painful (but still nasty) it's just switching to something different and you ARE addicted/dependent to it after a couple weeks.

By the way Mikells even though it wasn't what I was talking about most of what you go on to explain is largely because bupe is legal in many cases (Pretty much the same as if you could get an H user to use a weaker opiate that was legal), but my post was taken way out of context.

I also have quite a bit of experience with several attempts to taper/stop on subs so I'm not just talking about what I've read or what I think though I've discussed it with others who've done the same. I think two weeks is too long....it seems fine when the drops come fairly easy but in the end....Will a two week taper if done in small doses and its the first bupe taper of the persons be easier then kicking whatever they had been straight up? Quite possibly....but it's certainly not the best wya to go about it.

But anyways GL Zenpunk...not trying to bring you down, just sharing my experience. Hell I've heard of some crazy cases here and there where people have had no WD at all coming off of it after long periods...can't verify accuracy but maybe you'll get super lucky.

Anyways stay with it. What you're doing is likely gonna be easier than cold turkey.

One thing bupe is GREAT for & this goes BIG time if you feel OPK on it is dropping tolerance if you stay on a low dose it drops tolerance quick. So if all else fails that side is nice.


Why couldnt you stop on subs? what happened?

[Duckfeet]

Well, I hope yer right...but u know, over on Watchdog, the methadone people say exactly the same thing, that yer brain rebuilds on methadone, that it gets back to normal, that the receptors fix themselves, and they too have an explanation for all the different reasons people *don't* like methadone, with all kinds of statistics and other stuff to back it up...and don't much like hearing from people who are negative about methadone...

My trouble is for every postive, I also seem to find a negative, and it's hard to know who to believe: I do agree that what I think you are aiming for: eventual total abstinance, get yer life back in order, slowly ease off the bupe, and if yer stats are *right* then u won't even have PAWS...

But then I'll read Rach(not our Rach, but Ratchett, over on H-D.com/bupe) and some of the other guys who were on it long periods...and what they say is very credible too...and not so comforting...

So I figure somewhere in hear, with *either* of them, or heroin maintenance, for that matter, u gotta make decisions and hope u r right. Me, I'm just too spooked by Bupe, I don't figure enough yet is known, and like all the other stuff I take--and I am diabetic--I get the info, and make my decisions...if anybody can make it work, u can...but I have a feeling u'd probably make a go of methadone maintenance, anyway, since u have a good attitude...while me, honestly, my attitude at this time towards both of them kind of sucks...

But I always wish you well, and know damn well, when it comes to people, u never know....

[zenpunk]

DIARY SATURDAY:

I decided that the weekend are to be felt sick as hell on the couch, crying every 10 minutes. So I didn't take the 1 mg. The physical symptoms haven't gotten any worse than yesterday so I'm going to see how the day goes. I'm almost used to feeling sick all the time.

Mikells43 you bring some really interesting points - like can the brain completely rewire to pre-opiate days by using bupe or do you get something inbetween? Does your brain ever rewire to pre-opiate days or do you get something different if you go cold turkey? And, what really happens? Maybe there is a certain brain that is attracted to opiates if it stumbles upon them because it is "missing something" and needs to be rewired. Alls I know is that I'd tried everything under the sun and the day I tired Heroin I said, "this is what I've been looking for my entire life". Whereas I've seen others be weekend users for a couple of months and walk away without a second glance.

What is PAWS?

So 0mg today.

[Duckfeet]

Yep: it's a love/hate relationship, for sure. I actually *didn't* like heroin, the first few times over in Vietnam...made me kind of nauseous, and I was at a base camp, and didn't mind feeling sluggish, and kind of slow, but back in the bush, it mattered, so I never took it there....but also, it wasn't until I "decided to stop" after a long run, and got sick, and then got well...that I think I really understood that this shit, was more powerful and would have a lasting influence on me...and, of course, it took me many *many* years, before I could face the fact that this shit *ruled* for better...For worse....




DIARY SATURDAY:

I decided that the weekend are to be felt sick as hell on the couch, crying every 10 minutes. So I didn't take the 1 mg. The physical symptoms haven't gotten any worse than yesterday so I'm going to see how the day goes. I'm almost used to feeling sick all the time.

Mikells43 you bring some really interesting points - like can the brain completely rewire to pre-opiate days by using bupe or do you get something inbetween? Does your brain ever rewire to pre-opiate days or do you get something different if you go cold turkey? And, what really happens? Maybe there is a certain brain that is attracted to opiates if it stumbles upon them because it is "missing something" and needs to be rewired. Alls I know is that I'd tried everything under the sun and the day I tired Heroin I said, "this is what I've been looking for my entire life". Whereas I've seen others be weekend users for a couple of months and walk away without a second glance.

What is PAWS?

So 0mg today.

[zenpunk]

Also I smell like chemicals...I shower 4 - 5 times a day and still stink. Wash the sheets daily as well. But I stink!

[reddragon3668]

Zenpunk, I've been watching this thread intently, and I am so glad your getting along as good as you are. Its been such a good idea to do this online diary and I am sure it will serve as an inspiration to allot of people. After an addiction like that, any amount of days sober is good. We can't so much worry about tomorrow.

Keep at it and I hope you have a good day!

[zenpunk]

2PM - SWIM called the neighbor on me and got some crazy awesome weed. Suddenly I realized what could help the low throbbing pain, some of the best weed in the US (I don't know where this guy gets it from, but its insane). 10 minutes after 3 hits of this and the pain was gone. GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can make it now, I know it. See, if I had done this days ago I would have been sick, but this is the right time.

[mikells43]

there are certian brains that when on opiates feel like its the best thing that has ever happened to it. i dont think the brain rebuilds on methadone cause of its properties, bupe is a partial agnoist and antaginst thats why they say it rebuilds. people that love opiates usually are predisposed to some sort of addiction and find that opiates or some other drug is their key to success and feeling well. for my father its booze that is his "opiate", hes an alcoholic. for someone else it might be methamphetimine, hell i kno people that rely on just pot , one guy i kno from the rooms he was very addicted to pot and couldnt put it down , for 30 years all day he smoked grass and was high all the time, it was normal for him to be high on pot all day long and he had a very hard time kicking it. diff shit for diff people i say. were all diff but all the same. methadone is just a synthetic opioid , thats why i dont think it rewires the brain.

i hate pot lol, i can't stand it for some reason. but if it works now go for it, dont just trade off ur addiction with it. cause for that guy i kno, it was like talking to someone kicking pure herion when he was getting off of pot. .

[zenpunk]

I see what you are saying and I've known people who have smoked for 20 plus years because pot was their Heroin. For me for years pot has been pot, not a big deal to myself personally, but still nice and relaxing. I smoke pot maybe 10 times a year. I personally can come and go from pot like its nothing. But I knew I didn't want to take any more bupe today but I didn't want any more pain. Sadly the pain is already bleeding through...

[zenpunk]

You were right about the pot mikells43, bad idea. I was back in agony in no time with no real mental control over it No good. Had to do .25 of sub (literally a chip). I may do .5 in the end. But I learned a valuable lesson. And originally today I was going to do 1.0.

[zenpunk]

The .25 was a tiny bump insuffulated (I know, I know). How much of that .25 did I actually get. I'm actually in pretty wicked pain. Did I mention Pot was a bad idea?

[mikells43]

lol yep, cause once the pot wears off all that shit comes back that u numbed away or smoked away 10 times as tough. they had a true life on oxy addiction on mtv at 4 im watching it now. the dude snorting the oxy actually fucked with my head lol, not too bad tho.

[zenpunk]

you couldn't be more right mikells43. 10 times as bad. well hopefully the board is taking notes! Pot = good for the first 10 minutes.

[zenpunk]

DIARY SUNDAY:

Slept horribly and woke up for half the night, just laying there. Only insuffulated that .25 yesterday that did nothing. I added it into my chart until I know if this ROA (suboxone) has a different absorption percentage. It really didn't change the curve all that much. Today I drop to less than 1mg in my system (1.45 to .91mg). I'd like to think this is the nearing the end.

It seems like forever since I've been well now. I just want a day where I wake up and don't feel like shit. Today its just a low level pain, just as annoying, in my legs and I still can't walk around that well.

And mentally, man, I woke up with that horrible impending doom feeling its horrible. Then anger, then sadness. What is sad is that its all the old feelings I used to have all time. And that really sucks. I guess I was hoping the same 'ol me didn't emerge out the other side from the Heroin fog.

[zenpunk]

Afternoon, still hanging in, trying to drink lots of water. Nose started running and I ended up snorting back out the .25mg from yesterday afternoon. I'll make it though today. Its gonna be hell getting up and going to work tomorrow.

[Duckfeet]

Yep, maint thing I did learn from AA, that really helped, was I didn't have to do this shit for life, and experience alone tells me that I'll get to get loaded again, so I can always put it off another day...in other words, 1Day at a time, seems to help, when kicking...if not it's too discouraging...gets better, hang in there...

[mikells43]

also playing the tape thru, or the dvd, cd, blu-ray or whatever you have ur recordings on to watch the entire thing not just the part of the good feeling.

[zenpunk]

Yeah l knew I was at the end when I had company over and I had to constantly sneak out of the room to "get right". I was ashamed that I could barely make it through a half a day taking them sightseeing without having to fix. I knew the old me, that went to the gym every day would have been running around full of energy. I knew I was at the moment where I could get better now and get my health back or keep using massive amounts of H and Benzos and watch everything continue to spiral.

I have the shits and its basically all oil?!? Any ideas? Just started in the last hour.

[mikells43]

hmmmmm, hmmmmm, thats not my fav thing about this lol. immodium is the only hting that will work. if u take lamotil its a narcotic like demerol and atropine.

[GoddessofRATs]

That oil is probably your body cleaning itself out. You've had a lot of junk in you for a long time, just like all of us here. Your body is probably trying to get rid of whatever is lurking in your system. I seem to recal having oil like runs after a few days of w/d. I think it's jsut your system cleaning itself.

I could be wrong.

GOR

[zenpunk]

Yeah I'm gonna ride the shits out - get that stuff out of my system. My legs keep having like "tingling spells". More tingle, less pain.

[GoddessofRATs]

Yea that's the best thing to do. I know taking some immodium would help but you should probably try and let all that stuff come out. It's all part of the detox, not only does your mind need to detox but your body does as well. And your emotions as well.

Just let it all come out. Try drinking some Lemon water, that i hear is helpful during a detox to get all the funk out of your system

GOR

[mikells43]

Gleaciu vitamin water is good too, or however u spell it. gatoraide too

[zenpunk]

Good idea. I spent 10 minutes on the elliptical machine, try to push the toxins out. Funny, I got it for my birthday but I was already too much of a junkie to ever use it. Gatoraide is a great idea.

[RxQueen]

i finally got a chance to read this thread the whole way through. GREAT job, zenpunk! the diary is a fabulous idea. it's gonna be good to be able to refer people to this when they ask what a sub taper will be like. i know that it's different for everyone, but these detailed descriptions will be able to let folks get a good general idea of what they might expect.

and congratulations to you on getting this far! i'll be checking back to read about your progress... i hope it all goes as painlessly as possible. keep up the good work, you'll get there!

[zenpunk]

DIARY MONDAY:

Made it to work barely. I have like an hour commute if I go into the office. Could barely move every joint aches. But I haven't been sleeping and I knew I had to go do a day of something besides the couch. I'm cranking the heater on my legs.

Mentally I feel like hell. All the things I avoided, troubled relationships, etc. are all bearing down on my mind with brute force. My house feels like a prison, I just want to sell it and move far far away...

[OxyContinuously]

ur doin' a great job, tho ;-)

commendable actually, going to work also? hats off 2 u!!

[zenpunk]

ur doin' a great job, tho ;-)

commendable actually, going to work also? hats off 2 u!!

Well I'm managing to get through a 4 hour work day without throwing up all over the place.

[OxyContinuously]

Well I'm managing to get through a 4 hour work day without throwing up all over the place.

good 4 u, that's saying a LOT.....many people (me included) usually skieve work when sick and generally rot until either a) i get right or b) it passes due to time

great job

[zenpunk]

Is all this still WDs? According to my graph today I'm dropping from .9 mg of Suboxone in my system to .56 mg. I'm not taking any more Suboxone (haven't since Sat) I'm determined to ride this out. How much more intensive WDs (where I'm walking around really physically sick) do I have to take?

[Duckfeet]

First: you're doing really good: I can't make it thru a day w/out puking, so yer ahead of me by a long shot...and I'm detoxing w/out wanting to LOL

Second: No one *really* knows how long it will last, or how many days it will be bad: there are just too many factors, and the post withdral crap (PAWS) is all over the place, w/some people barely feeling it, and others months of gloom....

That's why I always say kicking is kind of lonely...people want to give u comfort, u know, show solidarity, act like we have some kind of graph, and that on day *4* or something, it will all end, but nah...it's gradual and individual, and happiness seems to come at first in short bursts, then more regular, until finally, *gloom* sticks out, and yer o.k....

But in between what yer going thru, and the "happy" times is just some lonely motherfucking shit, and all u can do is hang in, until it gets better.... Subs are too new, and people argue angrily about withdrawals...to me, day 3 was the worst...I've never seen day 4....

Best wishes, hang in...


Is all this still WDs? According to my graph today I'm dropping from .9 mg of Suboxone in my system to .56 mg. I'm not taking any more Suboxone (haven't since Sat) I'm determined to ride this out. How much more intensive WDs (where I'm walking around really physically sick) do I have to take?

[mikells43]

as the bupe comes out of ur system. u will begin to w/d , the w/d is not going to be as harsh as coming stragight off of dope(at least i dont wanna say it is goign to be , i can't be for sure tho). all i can say is take the proper precautions u would like gatoraide, vitimans, and stay away from anything addictive. right now ur brain is going to latch on to anything it can, and thats all u wanna do is pu't something else thats even remotely addictive in u. cause u might run the risk of a whole other addiciton all over again.

[chopstix]

I've been exactly where you're at so many times, I couldn't even begin to count. The fact that you have walked away from opportunit/y(ies) is golden, that means you're gonna make it. Most people in your shoes (including me) turn into chronic relapsers and that's a *really* hard cycle to break once it's habit. I won't go into the details simply because it's not you and you don't need to know, this *is* what you need to know:

There is no realistic time frame for when you'll feel better, it's based on: your history with opiates, your DOC and the quality, your metabolism, your health and what you do with yourself over the next few weeks. The key is to focus on the moment, don't look ahead, tell yourself you feel better *now* no matter what your brain is telling you - you've been lying to it and now it needs to catch up to reality because it's been on such a sweet vacation.

How to jumpstart the Hypothalmus and endorphin production: EXERCISE and nutrition - things that feel good; think about it, you've been sniffing fake endorphins for the past several months so your brain ceases/limits production, you suddenly stop this massive chemical imbalance and your brains says "fuck you - I'm on vacation" and it takes awhile to go back to work, you just need to kick it in the butt.

Good movies, good food, exercise is key - whether it's a walk to the park or 20 minutes on a stationary bike, it's probably the most important thing you can do - *get up* and walk somewhere, hot baths, great sex, go to the SPCA and hang out with the kittens, ANYTHING you can do to get the endorphins flowing will return you to normal cycles. PAWS can last for months but *it will* get better and the more pro-active you are, the better off you are, do ANYTHING that makes you feel good aside from opiates.

I am normally not a proponent of MJ, but in my experience, it can help pass time, which is what this comes down to. I think it's better to take a walk up a steep hill than to smoke a J and zone on the history channel, but it's better than sitting on the couch and feeling like shit, weed helps me pass time, I smoke a little when kicking but the more you move your body and the more you can feel good through natural means, the sooner you'll feel better. Trust me, just be grateful you're not kicking methadone..

This diary rocks. Thanks for taking the time and hang in there because it's just a temporary chemical imbalance and it will straighten itself out, if you cheat, you're setting yourself up for a lifetime of cheating. Also, I'd recommend staying away from SSRIs, evil stuff..

Good luck Zen.

[kyuss]

Definitely doing great.
It's the hardest thing
in the world to do
and like dying
or being born
we do it alone.
It'll get better,sugar-
just keep at it.

[chopstix]

And something else I want to add, I don't see this mentioned often and I think it's important. People tend to overlook the strength of bup - it's REALLY potent stuff. Rough equivalency is something like 100-150x stronger than morphine (IM/IV); methadone is roughly 3x stronger than morphine and has a half life much closer to bup, so 1mg of bup is about equal to 100mg morphine which is roughly 33mg methadone (approximately, stats dependent on source) - that's a lot of dope, considering.. If you walk at .5mg bup, it's about like walking off ~16mg methadone.

I'm a believer in .25mg and under doses and I think we'll see the pharm companies breaking this stuff into smaller doses for maintenance/taper purposes, if they don't, then it's probably intentional.

(Again), good luck, I personally would choose a couple more .25mg doses (2-3x/week) over missing too much more of a good job. You're tapering and as long as you continue a scheduled drop, you will adjust..

Equivalency calc: http://www.medcalc.com/narcotics.html

[bronyraur]

I'm making this thread stickied. This is a good insight into the Subutex/Suboxone experience.

[zenpunk]

DIARY TUESDAY: Finally called my therapist yesterday afternoon. Yesterday was a day of mental crisis, of guilt over wrongs, etc. Told her I'd basically been an addict for the last two years coming into therapy for my PTSD and blowing smoke up her ass about how I was getting better. She told me if I was still feeling bad I should at least see my Dr. So I did, and was basically shown the door and told I couldn't be helped. She also recommended an outpatient program at Phelps in Tarrytown, NY (if anyone knows this program please fill me in).

I called Phelps in the morning and they said a hospital had to check me out and declare me in good health and not needing a medical detox before they would see me. More bullshit. But I was feeling like hell and thought oh well, let me go to the ER up the road from work. Of course, they aren't equipped to deal with opiated detox only alcohol. But I showed them my Suboxone detox chart and told them everything I've done to detox and they said "ok, they'd take me in and check me out to make sure physically I was ok". Everything came back fine and I got IV fluids and I feel a little better. Then I called Phelps and they said they could interview me for their outpatient program on Monday afternoon which gives me some more time to be even healthier. They told me not to do a single thing, not a hit of MJ nothing, until I show up at their door.

I don't know if I'm taking the right route but I know if I don't do something drastic I will be in the same cycle over and over again as its been with alcohol, vicodin, benzos, moving up to the almighty H. There are things in my life I need to address and I have been covering them over with drugs sadly. I'm really scared as hell and I would love to hide and never make a decision, but if I do that, I'll be back on the wagon in no time.

I feel a little better after the IV fluids, not much but a little better.

[GoddessofRATs]

Good step sweetie! But, that doctor showing you the door and saying they can't help makes me so god damn mad. Did that doc even lead you in the right direction to where you could get help or did you get the ER idea somewhere else. The least a doctor could do is get you going in the right direction if he can't help you.

I must be getting my period (which i haven't had in like 3 months because of my opiate use) because everything is irritating me lol.

Anyway. I would think you probably need a couple days of IV fluids for it really to help. IV fluids are helpful for so many things and being in detox i am sure you are dehydrated. I'd go back and ask for more fluids, say you felt dizzy when you stand up, that usually means dehydration, at least that's what the docs told me when i was in the hospital for a week with a sever kidney infection about 8 years ago. Hey, really... the only reason i even stayed that whole week was because they gave me dilaudid shots every 6 hours and Percocet every 4 hours he he. Oh yea and IV ATB's and fluids. IF they hadn't given me the oppies, i would have checked out with the ATB's but when they told me the pain management regimen they'd have me on, i was like "huh, well... yea i guess i can stay 5-7 days, no problem ROTFL. Oh man did i enjoy those 6 days. Except when this idiot doctor did a pelvic exam on me, omg, it felt like an elephant was trampling inside my vagina and uterus. That doctor should never be allowed to touch a female again lol. But, after the exam i did get an extra dillie shot LOL.

Anyway... ahhhh memories lol. I digress. anyway, if you don't feel good go back to the ER and say you are dizzy upon standing and they'll give ya more IV fluids, also say you've been throwing up. I gurantee the fluids will make you feel a lot better.

I'm so proud of you Zen, very proud of you. Wish i had your strengh, courage and willpower!!! You amaze me for doing this!!!

GOR

[mikells43]

fucking doctors are ASSHOLES, how could they tell u that? what dooshes. id fucking call my lawyer if esp a phsyc doc told u that shit. woah. and if u havn't been feeling sihtty allready. have u been to rehab before? do u kno what they teach u there? in outpt of course. if the answer is yes. and u dont want to feel like shit. id go to a bupe doctor if i were u. thats just me tho. paws last a long time

[Nate]

Keep up the great work. When in rough times, keep reminding yourself, every day, every hour, every minute, every second, more junk is leaving your system and your body is healing. It will get easier, even on the shitty days, just remeber, your doing it, your body is healing.

If I could reach through the screen and give you a big hug I would. Be strong girl. We are here to support you. I too am kicking, some im at home, if you want to talk, i like to listen. PM me if you like.

[pharmboy]

I think you are doing GREAT Zen. I didn't post alot because I am

generally not a positive person. So on that note : Be Careful alot

of these rehabs DON'T have your best intrests as there number

one goal. Of course it's Money. Just evaluate them as much as they

evaluate you. Your smart I know you know what to do. Good Luck.

[limitless_euphoria]

Wow Zenpunk, you've been going at this since November 24th (according to the start of the thread) and I've got to tell you if you've made it this far the worst is probably over. I know I've never really talked directly with you (I've read many of your posts) but it's nice to see someone document their success.

I'm sure temptation will rear its ugly head now and again as it does for anyone who is a recovering H addict. You just have to be prepared to look it in the face and pretend it was some asshole ex boyfriend who made your life hell and tell it to "fuck off."

Good luck continuing on your journey. You've done impressingly well thusfar.

[zenpunk]

DIARY WEDNESDAY:

Just can't sleep right. I go to sleep if I have the electric blanket on, then I wake up in a pool of sweat. Without the blanket I feel fine, then I can't sleep. Still feel weak and nasty but I can drive a car so off to work I go.

My insurance covers the evaluation by this place that my therapist recommends. They will do 2 sessions and make a recommendation for a program for me that my insurance covers. I know my addiction stems from a lot of mental stuff and SMART Recovery or NA is not going to cut it. I figured I would at least check it out instead of feeding myself a line of shit that I can do it myself because I know I can't. There's some really shitty behavior that underlies all this drinking and drugging and I have to get to the root of that. My first appointment is at 4:15 so I'll tell you how it goes tomorrow.

[RxQueen]

zen, you show incredible strength just to admit the need to face the shit you've lived through, let alone to actually take the first steps to allow yourself to face it. i wish you the best, and will continue to respect you immensely no matter what; for this thread, and for the will and strength of character you're showing. you go girl!

[upstate_007]

My first appointment is at 4:15 so I'll tell you how it goes tomorrow.

I was thinking about it Zen....and I remember my mother saying she was involved with Phelps in some manner for outpatient treatment. She lives in that area and has been clean for a few months now as far as I know. Who knows, maybe they will be able to get you going in the right direction with the right treatment plan.

Either way, I really hope for the best with you. You are doing so good and your attitude is in the right place by realizing that you may not be able to do it alone. So, congrats on your successes so far and I can't wait to hear about the successes to come.

[mikells43]

beleive me those progs go much deeper than what u see on the outside, the smart and na. if u do them the right way as they are written and do the proper things, u do an inventory which helps u come to the bottom of ur probs and resentments, u make amends to people u hurt to elminate guilt, u find ur charcter defects to help u become a better person. that shit goes deeeep so it can work. i think rehab isn't worth the money when u can go to a meeting and toss a buck in the basket and get numbers of others who have done it and can help u, their experence will blow any rehab councellor out of the water, also rehabs have watered down the recovery progs out there too.

[zenpunk]

DIARY THURSDAY:

Well I must have good insurance because everything is 100% paid for. The first intake meeting was alot of dates and drug details which was annoying because I'm one of those "I wanna fix everything right now" people. They are looking to place me in one of their programs that are 2 nights a week for 9 months to a year. Plus one meeting a month with their psychiatrist. And now I can start working with my therapist instead of lieing to her. Of course I'm thinking "man what about my travel job", "what do I tell my boss", "I thought I was gonna fix my whole life in 2 months" kind of thinking. On the way out the door I bumped into the Wednesday night meeting. Everyone seemed so calm and happy. But I realize that its going to really take that long. Now I have to go for a physical exam this afternoon with the same crappy primary doctor that threw me out on my ass on Monday.

That's one thing, if you are a junkie, no matter who you are or how you got there, the untrained medical professionals look at you with such distaste, like you are a complete failure already.

[upstate_007]

That's one thing, if you are a junkie, no matter who you are or how you got there, the untrained medical professionals look at you with such distaste, like you are a complete failure already.

That is sad but true Zen. Even in a case like yours where medical necessity for opiate pain relied got you started.

Sounds like things are still going as well as they can for you and you are still headed in the right direction

And aint that a motherfucker when you realize that you aint going to get better as soon as you thought? Thats hard to come to terms with when you are a impatient person like myself. But, taking the time to do it the right way can only help you in the long run.

[zenpunk]

And aint that a motherfucker when you realize that you aint going to get better as soon as you thought? Thats hard to come to terms with when you are a impatient person like myself. But, taking the time to do it the right way can only help you in the long run.

So true, the one person in the ER the day before yesterday who was nice to me said that when you want to really recover, you better have nothing but time.

[GoddessofRATs]

Yea, that's the thing Zen... this is something that can't be fixed in two months, unfortunatley it's going to be a lifetime battle for you. I know that's discouraging but it's true, you have to learn to take each day at a time, i know that sounds stupid but it really is true.

15 years ago when i quit speed i thought once i detoxed, everything would be ok but i quickly learned that each day was a battle. But once i learned to just take it day at a time and that each day i went without doing drugs was a major accomplishment.

This is gonna take time hun. You've been doing drugs a long time and it will take a long time to fully recover. But that being said, i don't think anyone 100% recovers from drug addiction.

I don't plan on quiting now but when i do, i know it will be a struggle the rest of my life. But, i don't plan on quitting oppies until i can find someway to deal with my depression or the government approves some kind of opiate for depression (right, like that's gonna happen).

A freind and myself were talking last night about how it would be so wonderful if they'd approve Methadone for depression treatment. If that ever happen i would quit opiates and give it a try. But than the chronic pain i have would also have to be resolved. I do opiates mainly to battle derpession but i also use opiates for chronic pain.

Anyway. You're doing so great hun. Just remember- Take it day at a time and remember this will be a lifetime struggle for you. I said this before but I'm gonna say it again, I'm very proud of you and i think a lot of the others here are as well!!

GOR

[Inspektahdek]

The hardest part is after becoming clean, once you get injured like myself with the back surgery, I was right back into addiction again. I had 2 years maybe 2 years and some months clean and once I got injured the temptation got into the old me and I'm right back where I started, maybe worse tolerance wise but then again that's just me and I wish you the best of luck zen, you're a very strong individual I've been reading your diary and I really admire how much you've accomplished!

[zenpunk]

The hardest part is after becoming clean, once you get injured like myself with the back surgery, I was right back into addiction again. I had 2 years maybe 2 years and some months clean and once I got injured the temptation got into the old me and I'm right back where I started, maybe worse tolerance wise but then again that's just me and I wish you the best of luck zen, you're a very strong individual I've been reading your diary and I really admire how much you've accomplished!

I worry about that too, like what happens if I end up in the hospital and they give me percs or something.

[Nate]

I worry about that too, like what happens if I end up in the hospital and they give me percs or something.

Unfortunetly thats reality, if you never ever want to experience the hell of this shit u'll be screaming for "NO OPAITES!"

[upstate_007]

The hardest part is after becoming clean, once you get injured like myself with the back surgery, I was right back into addiction again. I had 2 years maybe 2 years and some months clean and once I got injured the temptation got into the old me and I'm right back where I started, maybe worse tolerance wise but then again that's just me and I wish you the best of luck zen, you're a very strong individual I've been reading your diary and I really admire how much you've accomplished!

That's what got me back in. I had about 9-10 years of more or less clean time under my belt. The only thing I really did during that stretch was have a beer now and then or a pill a few times a year. Now I am back into the opiate world and addicted again. The choice was pain all the time or a somewhat enjoyable life with an opiate addiction again. I chose the path with less pain. Well....less pain for right now.

[OxyContinuously]

Hi Zen

I was wondering if you checked out Phelps Hosp. at all....Only reason I ask is cause that's actually in my area (like 20 mins north, if even) If I remember correctly, it's off Route 117...that and Westchester med. Ctr are literally a hop skip and a jump from where I live.

I know yesterday u were discussing with us how Phelps had some kind of program (can't remember exactly--like if it was an outpatient rehab, or a detox, or something) but I was wondering if you got any more info about it, or if you "joined/signed" up or what...

In any event, you should start (if u haven't already ;-p) feeling a LOT better real soon...YOu're doing really well, and the *ugliness* that is withdrawal should be gone completely, or if it's still around, on its last, last LAST legs, u know?

I said it a lot in this thread, but I'll say it again: Great job! I think it's just as important to have support (whether family, friends, or your O'phile buddies) while going through a journey like you did...

keep ur head up---> not only do you have this beat, but it's in the bag:D:D:D (poor choice of words, absolutely NO pun intended on that one, LOL!!!!!!):o

take care
peace out

oxy

[pharmboy]

What is it about being a junkie that really grinds on you? It's not the

heroin or oxy or whatever itself. It's society and the way they treat

you and the crap you have to go through to get that drug everyday

and all the guilt society heaps on you about all that.

If you get hurt and need opiates 75% of all that bullshit goes byby

and believe me it makes things alot better when all the drugs are

paid for and the drugs are quality controlled and nobody can shit on

you well not nobody some STILL do but for the most part THIER

assholes. So don't worry about it. Keep up the keepin up. You rock!

[GoddessofRATs]

Yea, that's kinda how i fell back into it. Although I've been doing opiate for over 15 years there were a few years i did nothing. And than i was in a car accident, hurt my back and got into opiates big time again and i haven't looked back LOL.

I also went through a faxe about 7 years ago where i started drinkign wine everynight. I had no access to opiates and i was depressed. I met a girl at work and she was a booozer, she drank wine evernight. She would never admit she was a drunk though. She wouldn't drink at work but soon as she got out of there the first thing she'd do was go get her wine and go home. And i befriended her and would spend the night at her house and we'd listen to music, she was a chef and she taught me how to cook all kinds of stuff but i also picked up her wine habbit LOL. I've always haded liquor but that's all i could get ya know.

It's funny how my friend would never admit she was a drunk, she would say "Oh i just like a couple glasses of wine at night I'm not a drunk or anything" Yea but if she went without anything i noticed her hands would shake. Yea right. And it wasn't a couple glasses of wine, she'd drink a bottle a night. I don't know where she is now and if she's still drinking. I wish her the best though. Unlike her, although i was drinking wine i could go without it very easily. I've never been into booze.

So for about a year or two i drank wine about 4 nights a week. But than my Grandma got prescribed Vics every month and got into the accident and i got back into that and than i found Trams and here i am.

So yea, gotta be careful with that. If ya have to go to the ER and your are in bad pain more than likely they'll offer you opiates, i guess ya just gotta be strong and tell them no opiates but the temptation is going to be awful.

So are you off the subs now, or are you taking a little but still?

GOR

[Inspektahdek]

I worry about that too, like what happens if I end up in the hospital and they give me percs or something.


then again you're a stronger person will-power wise than me at this point. but that is how I got rehooked got some pills in the hospital and then I was on a morphine pump, and after that, the wall came tumbling downward

[mikells43]

We live in a soceity where the answer to just about every medical problem is "take a pill and u will feel better" sometimes in 30 mins sometimes in 2 weeks , but u have tot ake that damn pill. my sponser or my mentor in recovery strongly beleives in all the other kinds of medicine rather than take a pill. he has 2 buldging disks in his back and torn ligaments right now hes in alot of pain and refuses to take narcotics. he takes soma at nite thats all. u do get to a point where life is better without chems and if u are offered chems u do have to make that choice. the best thing you can do now is stay away, dont isolate but stay away. my obsession to use has been lifted. im not saying if u put a pill on my desk right here im not going to be tempted but i have no desire to feel that buzz at all. its all a process to make progress in recovery.


you can do it, anyone can do it. its just that damn human trait that no one will not fix shit if its not broken. so if ur still getting really high and the benifits are outweighing the concenquences then ur not going to fix urself. when the conencquences and the shitty things are outweighing the beinfits thats when we fix shit. some pain has to be involved most of the time.

[OxyContinuously]

<snip> We live in a soceity where the answer to just about every medical problem is "take a pill and u will feel better" sometimes in 30 mins sometimes in 2 weeks , but u have tot ake that damn pill. </snip>


I agree. This "Band Aid" therapy seems to be especially prevalent in the realm of psychiatry, where people are pumped with medications without adressing the underlying problem/-lems. I mean it really is disgusting. Guranteed, you go see a shrink, tell him or her that yo have been feeling under the weather lately; without even getting any background information, you'll 99% walk out of there w/ Zoloft, Prozac, Paxil, or worse, Effexor...All of the SSris/SNRI's are extremely destructive to the brain. THink about it: these pills cause vital neurotransmitters to flood your receptors, so to speak, so after a while of either class of drug, your brain says "Why the fuck should I make serotonin when this fluoxetine can do my job for me?" Same applies for nor-epinephrine in the cases of Effexor and Cymbalta. Good luck trying to get off of them.

Depression (in the vast majority of cases; of course there may be a lone 5 or ten percent of the total that is justified) is over-diagnosed, and people are so quick to believe whatever comes out of the doctor's mouth, that they lose the ability (seemingly) to think for themselves. Laziness, is more like it. The attitude is: "Why should I work at my problem(s) trying to resolve them from the source, when I could give a rat's ass and take this "happy pill" to feel better?" Totally wrong method of thinking...but then again, the "public" is not known for its intelligence, LOL. If a doc ever recommended any of that *garbage* to me, not only would I give him/her a piece of my mind, needless to say that would be the last time I would see them...I mean, wake up, you know? These drugs do more harm than good. Of course there are exceptions, like if you really are a few bricks short of a chimney,a raving incoherent schizo mess, then by all means drug such a person up till they are zombified--who wants to deal with that??

but other than that, forget the anti-depressants; they are no more than a shortcut--> the easy way out.

[zenpunk]

Hi Zen

I was wondering if you checked out Phelps Hosp. at all....Only reason I ask is cause that's actually in my area (like 20 mins north, if even) If I remember correctly, it's off Route 117...that and Westchester med. Ctr are literally a hop skip and a jump from where I live.

I know yesterday u were discussing with us how Phelps had some kind of program (can't remember exactly--like if it was an outpatient rehab, or a detox, or something) but I was wondering if you got any more info about it, or if you "joined/signed" up or what...

In any event, you should start (if u haven't already ;-p) feeling a LOT better real soon...YOu're doing really well, and the *ugliness* that is withdrawal should be gone completely, or if it's still around, on its last, last LAST legs, u know?

I said it a lot in this thread, but I'll say it again: Great job! I think it's just as important to have support (whether family, friends, or your O'phile buddies) while going through a journey like you did...

keep ur head up---> not only do you have this beat, but it's in the bag:D:D:D (poor choice of words, absolutely NO pun intended on that one, LOL!!!!!!):o

take care
peace out

oxy

Hey we are neighbors (when I'm at work anyway)! I work very close to Westchester Medical Center, that was the hospital that checked me out on Tuesday. I have my second intake interview with Phelps today and I meet with my therapist tomorrow and for once I wont be blowing anymore smoke up her ass.

[OxyContinuously]

Hey we are neighbors (when I'm at work anyway)! I work very close to Westchester Medical Center, that was the hospital that checked me out on Tuesday. I have my second intake interview with Phelps today and I meet with my therapist tomorrow and for once I wont be blowing anymore smoke up her ass.


Cool, cool...i hope that goes good for ya'!! yeah phelps is like 15 mins (if that) from where i am.

so you're obviously familar w/ the Sprain Parkway and the *wonderful* traffic during rush hour!!

although regarding traffic, i think I287 has to be the *worst* IMO; i'm usually travelling back home on the sprain south
later

oxy

[zenpunk]

DIARY FRIDAY:

The last Suboxone I took was last Saturday. The last drug I took was a little MJ I smoked on the 4th. No more drugs or alcohol. I'm jittery as hell right now, but I had my physical for Phelps last night with that same crappy doctor. This time my S.O. wasn't in the room and she was a lot more relaxed. She told me she actually knew nothing about Heroin! Can you believe it! She told me she thought Heroin addicts just fell onto the couch and pissed all over themselves while high. I ended up helping her do the damn physical, showing her the damage H has done to my legs that is now healing, etc.! I think if I make it out of this process, I'm going to go work in the drug rehab industry so I can shed a little understanding and compassion. I know I can't work where I am now. Today's the day of the office xmas party and already half the people in here are buzzed on alcoholic, pot, and, yes, Heroin (I originally got hooked up with my first stamp at work).

I'm very jittery today, can't stop shaking all over. And my head keeps tingling.

Last night I just wanted to forget and have a big 'ol glass of wine. But that's how it all starts with me too. A drink slips in here and there, turns into drinking binges and wild behavior, turns into drug use, a vicious cycle over and over. I keep asking, "how did I end up this way". Was my brain just wired like this or will I dig and dig in therapy and find some pivotal event?

Cool, cool...i hope that goes good for ya'!! yeah phelps is like 15 mins (if that) from where i am.

so you're obviously familar w/ the Sprain Parkway and the *wonderful* traffic during rush hour!!

although regarding traffic, i think I287 has to be the *worst* IMO; i'm usually travelling back home on the sprain south
later

oxy

Yeah from work I take the Saw Mill to 287. Then I take the Taconic upstate to go home. Taking the Taconic home from group in the winter is going to be hell.

Also, I find that I can only sleep if I put the electric blanket on my legs, but then I wake up in a pool of sweat. If I don't use the electric blanket on my legs, I can't go to sleep.

-----------------------------------

Yup, snowy night and the Taconic Parkway was hell. Man I couldn't believe it - they gave me a cup and I had to pee in front of this girl while she watched. Only then did the magnitude of what I had done sink in. I'm in outpatient rehab - holy shit! How did I get here? I'm sober and my life has sucked since I was a teenager and now I can't escape it. I'm telling you, after all this I better end up fucking happy. Now I have to figure out how to tell my boss I can't travel for 9 months - how the hell am I supposed to do that?!?! I cried all the way home. I know I have to do this - I have no social skills sober and get very stressed -- I need professional help. I just hope I can really get better.

[pharmboy]

Well I think the biggest reason you are were you are is you have a

job that you have to be supergirl at. I know how it is, I was a trouble

shooter, you have to be smarter than any body else because thats

why your there, nobody else could figure it out. Also they are paying

over $ 100.00 an hour for your time. You have to make it look good,

don't you? Thats ALOT of pressure to be under all the time. I think

your right LOOK for a new job, one that is layed back.

[zenpunk]

Well I think the biggest reason you are were you are is you have a

job that you have to be supergirl at. I know how it is, I was a trouble

shooter, you have to be smarter than any body else because thats

why your there, nobody else could figure it out. Also they are paying

over $ 100.00 an hour for your time. You have to make it look good,

don't you? Thats ALOT of pressure to be under all the time. I think

your right LOOK for a new job, one that is layed back.

For me its not the actual job, its the people in the industry I work in. Its a male-dominated macho industry with alot of heavy drinking and partying, especially within the company itself. Its going to be tough to stand up to everyone while I look for somewhere else to work. Like I was supposed to do a job in Mexico in a few weeks and the guy I would be meeting from the other company working with me is a big time user. I'm gonna have to avoid that trip like the plague (can't do it now anyway) and tell someone else what needs to be done there as I could see us getting in serious trouble and me getting off the wagon.

[pharmboy]

Hell Zen I only did North East U.S., you do the world, I know it must

be fun at times, I still miss my expense account, but it wears on you.

I can't do it any more, your right it a male dominated job but its

also a YOUNG MALE game, get to old and you just can't keep up.


Sorry didn't mean your old, I am.

Your still a young wipper snapper.:whip:

Have you ever thought about Process Control Industry? Seems cool as hell
to me. Some of the ways they get machines to do things is increadable.

[zenpunk]

Sorry didn't mean your old, I am.

Your still a young wipper snapper.:whip:

Have you ever thought about Process Control Industry? Seems cool as hell
to me. Some of the ways they get machines to do things is increadable.

I actually work in process control! And I'm 36 which is pretty damn old.

[zenpunk]

DIARY SATURDAY:

Went and saw the Therapist, which was nerve wracking because I had been blowing smoke up her ass for 3 years. We barely got started and we were out of time. She is pushing hard for me to go inpatient, which may not be such a bad idea, I crunched the numbers and I wouldn't end up homeless if I got put away for 28 days, thanks to a nice fat xmas bonus.

Then I went to an NA meeting by my house at a little hospital that had been converted into a rehab. It was interesting that the speaker was talking about being reborn when you get clean and I had been born in that very hospital 36 years ago. It was funny because when I came in and sat down I was like, "I bet I'm the only Heroin addict in here". Yeah right. Everyone who commented was just like me, went through life doing the same shit over and over again, fucking up their lives. I really screwed up my personal life, which always meant I needed to use more and it was really tough dealing with that. Somehow I took comfort in the fact that I was an addict that just needed to hit bottom. I've been an addict for 18 years, starting with drinking and moving all the way up to H. Actually, if it wasn't for H, I'd probably still be using. Heroin started to take everything I had...

I really hope I make it. The tough part is what's left of your life when you finally wake up. I destroyed my marriage, sold half my furniture, and alienated everyone in my life over the course of years. That's the part that really makes you want to cry, all the people you step over to get high.

[mikells43]

glad u went to that meeting today and are openminded about recovery. and it sounds like u are willing too. all u need to do now is just be honest and not use. usually in the first few months u should just worry about not using and going to meetings if ur going to stick with them. they teach you tools in rehab, they get u out of ur surroundings so u cant cop. also they teach u not to use and to go to meetings. people there will help u get ur life back. na/aa is used as a gateway back to life if trudge the road the right way. and thats very simple to, and very easy not to. glad ur making it.

[pharmboy]

Wow I thought you were in Building Controls. Process is neat as hell.
Your last post was . . well it brought back memories . . Be Careful
if you want to change your life, change it to what YOU want to change
it to not NA/AA. I think alot of people in those get a little co-dependent
and they like it that way a little too much. Be careful how much smoke
they are blowing up your ass, they will put alot of guilt on you and don't
fall for it. You know how guilty you Should feel, don't let them blow it
out of proportion. I know I'm a negative old fart, so sue me. good luck.

[zenpunk]

Yeah a lot of people have told me that about NA/AA. When I was at Phelps I brought that up and also the fact that I'm big time anti-religion doesn't help. The intake counselor told me to shop around for a meeting that was low key. I think because this one is held in a rehab and not a church it doesn't harp on the God stuff. I do have a lot of guilt sadly anyway, I was a really destructive person (ex. while my aunt is pouring her heart out to me I'm stealing her husbands pain meds from shattering his knee).

[Suboxstitute]

Just one comment, other than I hope it all works out for you - 36 is NOT pretty damn old! Hell, the way things are going with medical science.....you may have 60 or more years to hang around depending on what your next step is!

It makes us a REAL old people..... feel real old.

Take good care.

[zenpunk]

Just one comment, other than I hope it all works out for you - 36 is NOT pretty damn old! Hell, the way things are going with medical science.....you may have 60 or more years to hang around depending on what your next step is!

It makes us a REAL old people..... feel real old.

Take good care.

Sorry man, I'm just finding it hard to swallow that I've been careening out of control for 18 years. That's a damn long time. I just don't know what I'm going to do, I've never been sober for longer than 3 weeks at a stretch over that 18 years. I don't know quite how to cope with things right now. Did you ever notice how much drinking there is on tv?

[Nate]

stay strong girl....the paws will lift...give it time....its worth it.

[Inspektahdek]

Yeah a lot of people have told me that about NA/AA. When I was at Phelps I brought that up and also the fact that I'm big time anti-religion doesn't help. The intake counselor told me to shop around for a meeting that was low key. I think because this one is held in a rehab and not a church it doesn't harp on the God stuff. I do have a lot of guilt sadly anyway, I was a really destructive person (ex. while my aunt is pouring her heart out to me I'm stealing her husbands pain meds from shattering his knee).

I totally feel you on the religion thing, how they try to fill a "VOID" for you. That's why if we had NA or any type of group therapy, I decline, it just doesn't work for me. Maybe one on one psychiatry and meds work, that's it, no group, no fucking worthless program! Well for me atleast, some people get help by the programs and group therapy, more power to you, wish I were that easy :/

[Inspektahdek]

Sorry man, I'm just finding it hard to swallow that I've been careening out of control for 18 years. That's a damn long time. I just don't know what I'm going to do, I've never been sober for longer than 3 weeks at a stretch over that 18 years. I don't know quite how to cope with things right now. Did you ever notice how much drinking there is on tv?

hey some of these problems can't be helped, I think most opiate users have some type of atleast mild instability that draws them to opiates. Everyone likes to get high, but only people with atleast minuscule problems stay high all the time, that's maybe what therapy can help you with, I sure as hell prob need it so I completely understand much like many other opiophiles and I find this site sort of therapy within itself because we all share a common interest and downfall at the same time.

you prob notice all the drinking on TV because you're more sober now and wanting to be in a diff state of mind, you'll be more perceptive with a clear head right? well I thought so...

also, it might be a massive advertisement to entice people to drink because drinking which causes so many deaths in this world is nothing in comparison to harmless pot or even yet ecstasy or heroin which cause significantly less deaths each year? hmmmmmmm *scratches head* "but then again, it's a nice taxable drug anyhow right?" (quote from UK movie "Human Traffic")

[zenpunk]

DIARY SUNDAY:

Went to my second NA meeting. Really I'm there for the people's comments more than the 12 steps lecture. I really hear something in what all these other addicts say. Tomorrow Phelps may be making their decision to make me inpatient or outpatient. If I go inpatient, I'll post again as soon as I can.

[upstate_007]

DIARY SUNDAY:

Went to my second NA meeting. Really I'm there for the people's comments more than the 12 steps lecture. I really hear something in what all these other addicts say. Tomorrow Phelps may be making their decision to make me inpatient or outpatient. If I go inpatient, I'll post again as soon as I can.

Good luck at Phelps Zen. I hope that whatever they choose for a program works out well for you.

[Nate]

We are always here to support you, no matter what you choose! Put a smile on....your getting so close to freedom.

[pharmboy]

I may be wrong but I bet they make you inpatient. I've never seen

a rehab pass by a big tasty chunk of insurence like you probably

have. Keep on keepin on Zen, you get closer with every day. .:xmas-smil

[zenpunk]

I may be wrong but I bet they make you inpatient. I've never seen

a rehab pass by a big tasty chunk of insurence like you probably

have. Keep on keepin on Zen, you get closer with every day. .:xmas-smil

Oh yeah, I think they will too and I don't think that such a bad idea at this point. I crunched the numbers and the world would not end if I disappeared for 28 days. And, yeah having good insurance makes them much more inclined to do it.

[Duckfeet]

I don't talk a lot about it, and probably give Mikell too much shit about it, but for candor's sake, I should say, that I like AA--not NA--and I'm an atheist, but u can find meetings where there's laughter and where they don't take themselves too seriously...

I go most days to a noon AA meeting here, and I think it's good for me, and when I worked the steps, best I could back in March of 1999, I haven't had a drink since, so it *can* help, some people...it's never worked *forever* on opiates, for me, but it has worked for years, and I think it's good--for me--to have a place to go, where people care about me, and know my struggle, and shit...

But I'm a real stickler for AA's traditions, which are--more or less-their rules, and they believe strongly that we should *never* promote this shit, it should only be "attraction..." ...and that's it *only* about alcoholism..anything else I struggle with, I should keep to myself...

The trick is, as they say, for those of us "in the program" is *not* to take yourself too damn seriously, and not to start babbling AAspeak outside of meetings, where it comes off as phony and just way too superior sounding...giving us a veneer of undeserved humility, when it's just our cutesie vocabulary: there is *no* accepted "proof" that AA or NA or religion, or *anything* works any better than anything else....and once there became a buck to be made in the "recovery" field, the whole thing changed, and I personally believe, that AA, and all 12step programs will go the way of goofy religions and cults, but anyway, u might want to find a meeting u like, and talk to somebody *not* consumed with the lingo, as it might help you....I like going, and it helps me...


Sorry man, I'm just finding it hard to swallow that I've been careening out of control for 18 years. That's a damn long time. I just don't know what I'm going to do, I've never been sober for longer than 3 weeks at a stretch over that 18 years. I don't know quite how to cope with things right now. Did you ever notice how much drinking there is on tv?

[zenpunk]

DIARY MONDAY:

Still waiting for Phelps to call. If they don't I'll go back to NA tonight. I like the people at this meeting, in fact, I even recognized a guy that I got trashed with at a local bar once. Haven't slept in weeks, legs thrashing all night. I know the RLS may last for another week or so.

[tptptp]

DIARY MONDAY:

Still waiting for Phelps to call. If they don't I'll go back to NA tonight. I like the people at this meeting, in fact, I even recognized a guy that I got trashed with at a local bar once. Haven't slept in weeks, legs thrashing all night. I know the RLS may last for another week or so.

Bupe withdrawals can be torturously long, but hang in there you weren't on bupe that long so it shouldn't be that bad. RLS tends to linger from detox anyways, that shit sucks big time. Benzo might take the edge off....but, ya know. Maybe if you didnt have access to anymore but could grab one or two, but that doesn't happen often that way.

Well, good luck if it's what you want or what you feel you have to do then just hang in there & it'll get better. It really will.

[zenpunk]

Well I'm going outpatient: surprise, surprise. I'll keep everyone posted, my first meeting is tonight.

[pharmboy]

Well, I'm shocked.
I thought greed ruled more than that.
Maybe thier full cuz of Christmas and all or
was this your decision?

[zenpunk]

Nope - I was willing to go wherever they said. I was surprised myself they made me outpatient.

The first meeting at Phelps was kind of disappointing. It was more like a class about drugs. Jeeze I could practically teach that class.

And PAWS are a bitch - my left leg has really been bothering me and keeping me awake at night.

DIARY TUESDAY:

Talked to my boss about not traveling for 9 months - told him I have a medical issue and need outpatient treatment twice a week and can't travel. It was good timing because we just had someone who doesn't travel give notice. So they will hold off on hiring someone new and have me do her job, then in a few months train her replacement. No pay cut, no nothing! At last something good has come my way.

[pharmboy]

Do you have to stay in the office all day ?

That would bug the crap out of me, couldn't stand the office
or the people in it.

How about consulting ? Any chance of that ? .:xmas-smil

[zenpunk]

Right now I feel like hell so it really doesn't matter. I think once I feel better I'll take some trips on the weekend and stuff like that. The problem for me is that the extensive travel helps me not to face life. I cleaned up before like 4 years ago and without addressing why I run away all the time and try to make my life one big adventure, slowly drinking crept back in and then came the opiates and here I am again. I need to break the cycle. I need to be happy enough with myself that when I'm a road warrior again in a few months, I don't start partying.

Hey does anyone know how long Suboxone actually stays in your system? I still feel like hell.

[Inspektahdek]

wow 14 pages, very popular! nice thread zen, I just gave it 5 stars :)

you're one brave frau! :D

[Duckfeet]

That's why I don't *totally* believe in the "we've all got EDS" stuff...I've been very happy, and adventurous, after long periods on opys, and being totally abstinent...it just takes a while, but happiness comes back...but it's the inbetween times--or PAWS, another cutesy treatment center invent--so happiness off drugs just takes a while....Subs--to me--when it comes to detox, are identical to methadone: take longer to kick in, take longer to go thru, aren't quite as horrible as heroin/oxys...but again, longer u've been on subs, longer it takes...no free lunch...but some of yer questions are hard to answer: u might notice that those of us who have been around longer, are less inclined to give graphs and quotes, as we *know* without a shawdow of a doubt, that this is *hugely* subjective, depending on *pages* of factors, like length of usage, general health, age....etc etc...


And as always, wish u the best


Right now I feel like hell so it really doesn't matter. I think once I feel better I'll take some trips on the weekend and stuff like that. The problem for me is that the extensive travel helps me not to face life. I cleaned up before like 4 years ago and without addressing why I run away all the time and try to make my life one big adventure, slowly drinking crept back in and then came the opiates and here I am again. I need to break the cycle. I need to be happy enough with myself that when I'm a road warrior again in a few months, I don't start partying.

Hey does anyone know how long Suboxone actually stays in your system? I still feel like hell.

[pharmboy]

Yup I think Mr. Duckfeet is right. At this point it's not what IS in your

system makeing you feel like shit, It's whats NOT in your system

makeing you feel like shit. Keep on Keepin on.

[zenpunk]

DIARY THURSDAY:

Went to Phelps again last night. The Wednesday session is much, much better. We all talked about taking personal inventory of our lives etc., which is kind of what I'm doing now. Alot of people in there have lost everything because of coke or booze, I'm the only Heroin person in there. Everyone else runs the gamut from booze to PCP to Coke to Weed. But the guy that teaches on Wednesday, unlike almost everyone else, seems to know Heroin addiction really well. He told me to go to my dr. and get a B12 shot and get prescribed a sleep aid because I am still in PAWS and its time to get this show on the road and recover. So I had to call the ignorant doctor that refuses to prescribe anything for fear I'm gonna snort it or shoot it (even when logic says thats impossible) and let her secretary know that I need this and that they can call Phelps if they want and talk to the guy.

My SO is going to al-anon and came home last night with the realization that he has been co-dependent ever since his parents divorce. Us getting together was the wrong combination of people and I don't think we are going to make it.

[soulninja]

Hey Zen,Been a while. I'm glad to hear you're on the road to getting yourself together,good for you. Wish you the best of luck and stay strong.

[Duckfeet]

Yep: that stuff really helped me, I quit the clowing barfly/junky "oh, I'm so cool..." and finally began to see myself, what I really was: I didn't like it much, and try to avoid the "I'm so humble" lingo, but it still helped, meet a few nice people, get honest, get some support, can do wonders....and if even u feel this site is not helping, I 'd leave here too: yer life's at stake, and u do what u think is best...

Again, good luck to u....tuff place to be, but can work out in good ways...


DIARY THURSDAY:

Went to Phelps again last night. The Wednesday session is much, much better. We all talked about taking personal inventory of our lives etc., which is kind of what I'm doing now. Alot of people in there have lost everything because of coke or booze, I'm the only Heroin person in there. Everyone else runs the gamut from booze to PCP to Coke to Weed. But the guy that teaches on Wednesday, unlike almost everyone else, seems to know Heroin addiction really well. He told me to go to my dr. and get a B12 shot and get prescribed a sleep aid because I am still in PAWS and its time to get this show on the road and recover. So I had to call the ignorant doctor that refuses to prescribe anything for fear I'm gonna snort it or shoot it (even when logic says thats impossible) and let her secretary know that I need this and that they can call Phelps if they want and talk to the guy.

My SO is going to al-anon and came home last night with the realization that he has been co-dependent ever since his parents divorce. Us getting together was the wrong combination of people and I don't think we are going to make it.

[GoddessofRATs]

Can you go to another doctor and get a sleep aid? Maybe a walk in clinic that doesn't know you. But your probably trying not to do things like that, so i understand. That is the addict in me talking "Just go to another doctor" LOL. I try not to do that these days as well.

So your totally off the subs now?

GOR

[Cobain]

Zen,

Im so happy that you have the will to make it this far. major kudos and I wish you the best of luck, and try to have a Happy Holiday

[kyuss]

DIARY THURSDAY:

Went to Phelps again last night. The Wednesday session is much, much better. We all talked about taking personal inventory of our lives etc., which is kind of what I'm doing now. Alot of people in there have lost everything because of coke or booze, I'm the only Heroin person in there. Everyone else runs the gamut from booze to PCP to Coke to Weed. But the guy that teaches on Wednesday, unlike almost everyone else, seems to know Heroin addiction really well. He told me to go to my dr. and get a B12 shot and get prescribed a sleep aid because I am still in PAWS and its time to get this show on the road and recover. So I had to call the ignorant doctor that refuses to prescribe anything for fear I'm gonna snort it or shoot it (even when logic says thats impossible) and let her secretary know that I need this and that they can call Phelps if they want and talk to the guy.

My SO is going to al-anon and came home last night with the realization that he has been co-dependent ever since his parents divorce. Us getting together was the wrong combination of people and I don't think we are going to make it.

I didn't even think
you were in a relationship,
hang in there
you're doing great.

[zenpunk]

Can you go to another doctor and get a sleep aid? Maybe a walk in clinic that doesn't know you. But your probably trying not to do things like that, so i understand. That is the addict in me talking "Just go to another doctor" LOL. I try not to do that these days as well.

So your totally off the subs now?

GOR

Yup totally off subs took the last little chip on 12/1. I'm going back to this doctor I guess because she's so ignorant I want her to learn from this. And, if she refuses I can just put her on the phone with Phelps and she will find out better. Plus, she can't refuse the B12 shot and I really need that now I think. I'm sick and tired of feeling sick and tired, especially with it snowing like a bitch up here.

[zenpunk]

I didn't even think
you were in a relationship,
hang in there
you're doing great.

Sadly I think that relationship is over. Once you stand and look at each other sober after taking someone with you on your train wreck ride of a life, you realize that even though you got along you really can't be together, its not good for either of you.

I went and told my grandmother last night about all of this and her first comment was "your mother said a couple weeks ago that you were a drug addict and I told her what a horrible thing to say about her own daughter". I told my grandmother that my mother never knew me as a drug addict (I have been estranged from my parents for years). But man my mother hates me - when she finds out she's going to actually be happy. Just the thought of my parents made me want to take a ride right down to the Bronx. But I know I have to move on. It isn't my problem that my fucked up parents don't give a shit. I come from a long line of fucked up people.

[LorTabitha]

My SO is going to al-anon and came home last night with the realization that he has been co-dependent ever since his parents divorce. Us getting together was the wrong combination of people and I don't think we are going to make it.

I think I read somewhere that the statistics are in your favor on keeping your relationship IF both of you change and grow together. His going to al-anon is definitely a step in the right direction.

Also, you don't need a prescription in some states for a B-12 shot. Just stop by your local pharmacy and ask. I know my pharmacist is able to give them right at the pharmacy. Either that or find a local "natural" foods place that might sponsor those kind of shots. I get the B-12 and an Immune Booster every chance I get. Every little bit helps us heal!!

Hang in there. I read your thread with optimism every day. If you can do it, maybe I can too! :)

[pharmboy]

Need B12 ? Eat a big old steak.

Do you really want to have to INJECT it ?

Thats just too close I think.
I give myself injections of B 12 but then
I'm not trying to quit.

[zenpunk]

Sorry, don't eat beef (in fact, haven't bought any leather since I made that decision). After playing with the calves every year at a nearby organic cheese farm I just can't do it.

And, no, I don't think me giving myself a shot at this point is a good idea.

[Duckfeet]

...and just for the record, and from an old guy: love conquers all, I don't care what the treatment center theory is on it...or your family thinks, or "what's good for you..." if two people care for each other, they find a way...and even tho it's all gone, and yeah, was horrible, the things me and my girl did to, and for, each other...

But even junkies need love, and someone sleeping beside u that u care about, trumps all the bullshit, and when u look back, u'll be glad u had it...we were always fighting, leaving the fucking state, and both our families convinced me and Teresa were the worst most destructive couple on this earth...but I'll tell you, when I was up in South Dakota, and she was down in Louisiana, and it was "over for good" this time, and both our families were so relieved, almost celebratory ...

and she said fuck all that and hitch-hiked up to be with me, barely knew what *city* I was in, and I saw her walking down the street towards me, I coulda died that day ... woudna traded what we had for anything...fuck what's "good" for you ... life is short...

[zenpunk]

Thanks everyone. Duckfeet in this case I don't know if love can conquer all. I was an addict already when we met both at age 18. And he was your classic co-dependent. And my twisted mind was like "fantastic"! Fast forward 13 years and he's making the phone calls to help me score dope. Anything we had died when we were young and I kept it going because it was convenient. I love him still, but I love him like a son if that makes any sense. I'm giving him everything when we split. I've been a shit.

[pharmboy]

I'm "" available"". just thought you should know. .:jumping-s

[zenpunk]

I'm "" available"". just thought you should know. .:jumping-s

LOL! Part of my problems is that I also have a boyfriend in TN as well. I think thats enough men to juggle right now. I know part of what I have to do is decide who to be with or be by myself (in the end I'm sure I'll die alone somewhere.....)

Edited to Add: Also went to NA again tonight. Man I didn't think I would love NA as much as I do. I'm no god person, but to sit in a room of people who were just like me and are making it is fantastic. I always hear something from one of the recovering addicts I can relate to.

[Duckfeet]

Yeah, I did that too, kind of, lotsa similarities, just looking back, I just laugh at how many time it was *really* over, for good...and then we'd go another round...and yet, I don't know, now I'm kind of glad...and we met over dope too, both of us all strung out, all that...and Teresa did most of the work and hustling, and I'd stand around in bars and talk shit, so she was well quit of me ...every time...wouldn't have traded a minute of it, tho...but whatever works for you, and it sounds like u are finding a way to cope with things, and I'm glad u liked NA...I actually don't but that's me...a lot of younger people prefer NA to AA: they're good people, and finding others with the same problem is what it's all about: u don't feel so alone, and they understand what u are going thru....find some girl who seems sane and can laugh again, and has been off dope a while, and make friends with her, and it will change your world...all the best to u: and it's really been good that u kind of gave us a blow by blow of what was going on ... tho I still kind of root for your ex: god knows I can identify with useless men who women have to take care of... ;-)


Thanks everyone. Duckfeet in this case I don't know if love can conquer all. I was an addict already when we met both at age 18. And he was your classic co-dependent. And my twisted mind was like "fantastic"! Fast forward 13 years and he's making the phone calls to help me score dope. Anything we had died when we were young and I kept it going because it was convenient. I love him still, but I love him like a son if that makes any sense. I'm giving him everything when we split. I've been a shit.

[zenpunk]

DIARY MONDAY:

Just to let everyone know, still clean, life's still in the shit. Tonight we are learning about Heroin at Phelps - hahahahahaha! I'm sure I'll have a lot to add.

Anyhow - I still can't help but feel that Bupe is over-prescribed. I'd love to lobby for a special 2 week - detox kit for someone who has not abused Bupe in the past. I know I've said this before but I think its really important. People are still amazed that I detoxed at home and I couldn't have done it without Bupe. And it took less than 3 8mg pills! Its a way to try out being clean without being put on anything else long term. I was very aggressive with my taper, because I abused Bupe in the past and I knew I was going to suffer no matter what and my window was limited. But for someone who hasn't, this could be a livable experience.

[tptptp]

Very impressive zenpunk, nice job! Glad you achieved your goal. It's hard to gauge how hard WD truly is for most I think because they usually don't get far.

Anyhow, 16 days off, it's definitely completely out of your system. I've read some that have linger effects for a month or so, but the short time you were on it I doubt that.

Really nice accomplishment.

[Inspektahdek]

DIARY MONDAY:

Just to let everyone know, still clean, life's still in the shit. Tonight we are learning about Heroin at Phelps - hahahahahaha! I'm sure I'll have a lot to add.

Anyhow - I still can't help but feel that Bupe is over-prescribed. I'd love to lobby for a special 2 week - detox kit for someone who has not abused Bupe in the past. I know I've said this before but I think its really important. People are still amazed that I detoxed at home and I couldn't have done it without Bupe. And it took less than 3 8mg pills! Its a way to try out being clean without being put on anything else long term. I was very aggressive with my taper, because I abused Bupe in the past and I knew I was going to suffer no matter what and my window was limited. But for someone who hasn't, this could be a livable experience.


great job zen, I'm sending much commendation your way! Zen, where do u see yourself a month from now and even long term? Do you trust yourself with the occasional vicodin or are u going 100% clean? Also, are u planning on taking any SSRIs, 5htp, benzos, or the MJ to keep yourself in check or are you going completely frozen turkey?

Also is the "shit" part of your feelings more mental-wise? I would believe so but do tell if u don't mind :)

[zenpunk]

Yeah I think its all mental at this point - just a rough time on all accounts. My S.O. is moving back to the U.K. and, yes he is taking everything. I actually feel better though even though I'm losing everything I'm in control of my life for the first time as an adult. And hey, I still can make money - I'm better off than most.

[zenpunk]

DIARY WEDNESDAY:

Getting the house appraised. Turns out my uncle wants to buy it right away for his son who just got married. The house was my great-grandfathers so my father's side of the family is obsessed with keeping it in the family. Well I could give a shit less about family at this point so they can have it for the fair market value minus commissions etc., as a private sale through the lawyer. All the money is going to my S.O. for him to start a new life. It's a shame the dollar is in the shit. Meanwhile I'm apartment hunting on Craig's list. I'm thinking of even getting a sublet in NYC (though I doubt I could afford it).

Its weird though, with all of this going on I'm smiling on the way to work. The clouds are clearing in my head and I'm excited about starting a new life. These are exciting times, like a big adventure is starting. I've never lived my adult life clean before and I don't know quite how to do it to be honest. I got takeout from my favorite restaurant and I saw a guy sitting at the bar eating lunch and drinking Peligrino. And I thought, I can do that, I don't have to get piss-ass drunk in this restaurant like I usually do during lunch from work. I can figure it out. The last time I used H was 11/22.

I will probably not post everyday from here on out but I will post when something major happens and when I make my 30 Days, 60, 90 etc. My clean date is 12/5 cause I smoked weed on the 4th to deal with the end of the kick. I still feel physically like I've been beaten with chains.

[ZodiacKiller]

DIARY WEDNESDAY:

Getting the house appraised. Turns out my uncle wants to buy it right away for his son who just got married. The house was my great-grandfathers so my father's side of the family is obsessed with keeping it in the family. Well I could give a shit less about family at this point so they can have it for the fair market value minus commissions etc., as a private sale through the lawyer. All the money is going to my S.O. for him to start a new life. It's a shame the dollar is in the shit. Meanwhile I'm apartment hunting on Craig's list. I'm thinking of even getting a sublet in NYC (though I doubt I could afford it).

Its weird though, with all of this going on I'm smiling on the way to work. The clouds are clearing in my head and I'm excited about starting a new life. These are exciting times, like a big adventure is starting. I've never lived my adult life clean before and I don't know quite how to do it to be honest. I got takeout from my favorite restaurant and I saw a guy sitting at the bar eating lunch and drinking Peligrino. And I thought, I can do that, I don't have to get piss-ass drunk in this restaurant like I usually do during lunch from work. I can figure it out. The last time I used H was 11/22.

I will probably not post everyday from here on out but I will post when something major happens and when I make my 30 Days, 60, 90 etc. My clean date is 12/5 cause I smoked weed on the 4th to deal with the end of the kick. I still feel physically like I've been beaten with chains.


Good for you, Zen---you are an inspiration to me, if not all of us! I've been following your thread with great interest, mostly because I'm just about there myself. Hope to be clean within a month.

Anyway, continued good luck to you, and def keep us posted!


ZK

[vishvm]

Well done Zenpunk. Very impressed - I just read the whole thread start to end and I think your determination helped you no end.

IMHO (and as they say opinions are like assholes), I think possibly in the beginning you may have been better on a higher dose to get through the first few days more easily, then a quick taper. When I started bupe the 1st day I was given 4mg to go up to 8 over 2 days. Day 2, I had 6mg and it was like magic - the pain was gone. I've been on bupe mmt because I know I would have used again with a quick taper, but I believe it was doable and relatively painless (but I wouldn't stay stopped).

I've found with my habits that by day 3 I get glimpses of feeling better and am through the worst by day 5/6. After 2 weeks it's all over. I have fallen off the wagon and when I do back on bupe it's not magic anymore, but I feel a lot better by day 3, same as without bupe. Each person is different, but I'm surprised you still felt so much pain on day 3/4/5. Of course I could be completely wrong, but I think maybe if you had dosed a little higher initially it could have been easier. Perhaps 4-6/8/6/6/4 and then followed your personal taper.

[pharmboy]

CONGRATS ON 30 DAYS W/O H.

Good Girl, You are still a GOOD girl right?
No post at the 30 day mark.
Are you dumping us?
Just Kidding Zen

Have a GREAT Christmas! .:jumping-s

[zenpunk]

I'm here! And still good. I forgot I'm 30 days off of H because my clean date is 12/5/07 because I smoked some dope on the 4th in order to deal with the last of the pain. So still doing NA, outpatient at Phelps, and working with my therapist. Still having some PAWS issues, waking up with the sweats at night, not sleeping, etc. I was getting some blood in my urine so I went to the doctor this morning, the Heroin ignorant doc. We ended up talking for 45 minutes, she had lots more questions about Heroin use and recovery, etc. Her ignorance still cracks me up but she is beginning to respect me. Anyway its probably just a UTI so once the antibiotics kick in I should feel a hell of a lot better. I'm sure I really stressed my body during that hellish detox. I had to do the violent detox with the bupe because I was such a weekday warrior with it in the past, it was gonna be rough even if I jumped from next to nothing.

I know my only option is to continue to work on my past issues, otherwise my only other option is to start using again and that really hasn't cured me in 18 years so its time to try it this way. I just really hope I end up happy.

PS - I'm HIV Negative. I had really prepared myself for it to go either way, so I didn't throw a party when the test came back. I kind of roll with fate that way. But, since I got my free pass there I'm going to try my damn heart out to not have a need to get tested again.

[mikells43]

I'm here! And still good. I forgot I'm 30 days off of H because my clean date is 12/5/07 because I smoked some dope on the 4th in order to deal with the last of the pain. So still doing NA, outpatient at Phelps, and working with my therapist. Still having some PAWS issues, waking up with the sweats at night, not sleeping, etc. I was getting some blood in my urine so I went to the doctor this morning, the Heroin ignorant doc. We ended up talking for 45 minutes, she had lots more questions about Heroin use and recovery, etc. Her ignorance still cracks me up but she is beginning to respect me. Anyway its probably just a UTI so once the antibiotics kick in I should feel a hell of a lot better. I'm sure I really stressed my body during that hellish detox. I had to do the violent detox with the bupe because I was such a weekday warrior with it in the past, it was gonna be rough even if I jumped from next to nothing.

I know my only option is to continue to work on my past issues, otherwise my only other option is to start using again and that really hasn't cured me in 18 years so its time to try it this way. I just really hope I end up happy.

PS - I'm HIV Negative. I had really prepared myself for it to go either way, so I didn't throw a party when the test came back. I kind of roll with fate that way. But, since I got my free pass there I'm going to try my damn heart out to not have a need to get tested again.


thats so awsome to hear, u dont kno how proud of u i am. thats wonderful that ur doing it!!!!! keep going to rehab, keep going to meetings. and thats great honesty about smoking pot (i knew u did it , the impt part is that U ADMITTED IT TO URSELF and did not try to slip it by, cause we lie to ourselves more than we lie to anyone else right. have a good xmas. hang in there

[pharmboy]

Sorry Zen, I don't count pot.

It's a herbal remeidy

Not a drug

Right?

If you want to forget your past

You could always try E.C.T.

Instead of going back to H

Now there's some incentive ! Eha?

MERRY CHRISTMAS Zen . . Keep on Keepin on. .:jumping-s

[zenpunk]

Sorry Zen, I don't count pot.

It's a herbal remeidy

Not a drug

Right?

If you want to forget your past

You could always try E.C.T.

Instead of going back to H

Now there's some incentive ! Eha?

MERRY CHRISTMAS Zen . . Keep on Keepin on. .:jumping-s

Merry XMAS everyone! Whats E.C.T.? Yeah I don't really count pot either, its not really a substance I crave or care about. It was a good all natural pain killer to deal with the last of the leg cramps (I must emphasize - for me the pot was only good when I was at the absolute tail end of WDs). But, when the powers that be count clean time you have to count your last drink or drug whether it is your DOC or not.

[Diluted]

I'm a suboxone advocate, and pro-medicine maintenance. I skipped all the pages after four, but I get the general idea. I'm glad you're doing well :)

[zenpunk]

Happy New Year!

Still hanging in there - still feeling lousy. I'm on the couch again with the electric blanket because I went to an NA dance last night and overdid it a little. I feel like I will never feel better sometimes.

Went to Tennessee the last few days to visit my boyfriend. He took me to get this detox treatment where you put your feet in this tub of water with a battery pushing DC voltage through it to remove the toxins. My feet were still like a gray color. Well this orange and black shit started coming out of my feet, the tub was full of it. And when I pulled my feet out the outer layer of skin fell off and my feet turned a nice healthy pink. My legs began aching like hell from the knees down but it got better. I wonder if this treatment really works but it did bring the color back to my feet. The Heroin really killed my circulation, it was part of the reason why I had to quit, my legs were getting sores and my heels would ache.

But what was really funny was that we went to this place in town to get these giant stuffed potatoes. Apparently this is where all the dealers meet for lunch and they had these crazy souped up cars with slogans that looked like advertising but you knew it was about drugs. There was one that said Looney Tunes on it (which was one of my favorite stamps in NYC) and it had all the WB characters on it great big-ass rims and Yosemite Sam on the hood (which I think the stamp originally had that graphic but they changed it). Right by it was another souped up car that said Dasani 100% Pure on the side of it and it was obviously a home paint job. That was wild - those cars would have a stream of cop cars following them in NY. But there they were, the dealer alliance pulling up there cars and eating BBQ.

On Friday I get my 30 day key chain, can't believe I made it this far.

[Nate]

Happy New Year to you too!

Keep it up, you doing Great!

[mikells43]

Happy New Year!

Still hanging in there - still feeling lousy. I'm on the couch again with the electric blanket because I went to an NA dance last night and overdid it a little. I feel like I will never feel better sometimes.

Went to Tennessee the last few days to visit my boyfriend. He took me to get this detox treatment where you put your feet in this tub of water with a battery pushing DC voltage through it to remove the toxins. My feet were still like a gray color. Well this orange and black shit started coming out of my feet, the tub was full of it. And when I pulled my feet out the outer layer of skin fell off and my feet turned a nice healthy pink. My legs began aching like hell from the knees down but it got better. I wonder if this treatment really works but it did bring the color back to my feet. The Heroin really killed my circulation, it was part of the reason why I had to quit, my legs were getting sores and my heels would ache.

But what was really funny was that we went to this place in town to get these giant stuffed potatoes. Apparently this is where all the dealers meet for lunch and they had these crazy souped up cars with slogans that looked like advertising but you knew it was about drugs. There was one that said Looney Tunes on it (which was one of my favorite stamps in NYC) and it had all the WB characters on it great big-ass rims and Yosemite Sam on the hood (which I think the stamp originally had that graphic but they changed it). Right by it was another souped up car that said Dasani 100% Pure on the side of it and it was obviously a home paint job. That was wild - those cars would have a stream of cop cars following them in NY. But there they were, the dealer alliance pulling up there cars and eating BBQ.

On Friday I get my 30 day key chain, can't believe I made it this far.


thats great glad to see ur getting involved in the progs, na has helped alot of people. keep doing ti and keep going even when u dont want to cause thats when u need it the most. u can do this 30 days at a clip to happiness.......

[GoddessofRATs]

WOW, I've never heard of that tub treatment. I would have liked to have seen all those toxins coming out, i bet a lot of it was 'H' huh? Sounds like it got a lot out of you.

Well you made it to 2008 and i am proud of you Zen, i even sent you some reputation points for doing a great job with your recovery. I hope 2008 is wonderful for you because you deserve it.

Take care my friend.

GOR

Happy New Year!

Still hanging in there - still feeling lousy. I'm on the couch again with the electric blanket because I went to an NA dance last night and overdid it a little. I feel like I will never feel better sometimes.

Went to Tennessee the last few days to visit my boyfriend. He took me to get this detox treatment where you put your feet in this tub of water with a battery pushing DC voltage through it to remove the toxins. My feet were still like a gray color. Well this orange and black shit started coming out of my feet, the tub was full of it. And when I pulled my feet out the outer layer of skin fell off and my feet turned a nice healthy pink. My legs began aching like hell from the knees down but it got better. I wonder if this treatment really works but it did bring the color back to my feet. The Heroin really killed my circulation, it was part of the reason why I had to quit, my legs were getting sores and my heels would ache.

But what was really funny was that we went to this place in town to get these giant stuffed potatoes. Apparently this is where all the dealers meet for lunch and they had these crazy souped up cars with slogans that looked like advertising but you knew it was about drugs. There was one that said Looney Tunes on it (which was one of my favorite stamps in NYC) and it had all the WB characters on it great big-ass rims and Yosemite Sam on the hood (which I think the stamp originally had that graphic but they changed it). Right by it was another souped up car that said Dasani 100% Pure on the side of it and it was obviously a home paint job. That was wild - those cars would have a stream of cop cars following them in NY. But there they were, the dealer alliance pulling up there cars and eating BBQ.

On Friday I get my 30 day key chain, can't believe I made it this far.

[EleusisII]

In general, when somebody starts to talk about "toxins" they're full of crap.
Yes, you can have "toxins" in your body, but that's what your kidney and liver takes care of, and they do a fine job at it.
If it feels good, great, but just don't throw a lot of money at it.

[pharmboy]

Hi Zen.

E.C.T. = Electro Convulsive Therapy

You don't want any believe me. :jumping-s

[zenpunk]

In general, when somebody starts to talk about "toxins" they're full of crap.
Yes, you can have "toxins" in your body, but that's what your kidney and liver takes care of, and they do a fine job at it.
If it feels good, great, but just don't throw a lot of money at it.


It was cheap - $25 for the session - without the $1000+ a month habit I can swing it. I don't know how great it is either but it felt like it did something. I think it actually jump starts your circulation so if thats true it was useful for that.

And thanks to GOR!

[Opiyum]

I just have to say now....and somewhat quickly that I read to page 9 or so and cant go any further. I am currently about 72 hours in my very own Sub detox. One I began intentionally. For real this time. I'm So freaking emotional right now I just cant read anymore but I have to say I have been inspired in such a way from reading this that ...I just....I haven't felt anything for the last 8 years....Anything!....and here I am feeling all this remorse, pain, sadness and yet at the same time I feel so inspired and hopeful having read this.I think Ive learned a few things about the nature of detox and the methods and will power to really beat this.

Having felt aboslutely nothing for such a long peroid it only seems natural that pain and physical and emotional distress be the first things your reintroduced to.
You can't cheat yourself out of feeling pain. You can only postpone it.

Anyway I hope this all turned out well for you. Right now I have a small window to possibly catch some Z's.
Thank you ZP.
Thank you.

[Diener]

Hey Zen.

I might just be a goofball on the sight, but PAWS is something I actually do know something about.

It's very VERY ............................................

.................................................. ................

....................................... VERY difficult.


But, it does get better. I never thought it would, but it does.

I'm sure it's different for everyone, but after a long while it does indeed get better.

I even have energy to pursue things outside of just opiates these days.

Hang in there. It will get better.

[zenpunk]

Hey Zen.

I might just be a goofball on the sight, but PAWS is something I actually do know something about.

It's very VERY ............................................

.................................................. ................

....................................... VERY difficult.


But, it does get better. I never thought it would, but it does.

I'm sure it's different for everyone, but after a long while it does indeed get better.

I even have energy to pursue things outside of just opiates these days.

Hang in there. It will get better.


You are so right - just to let you know I got my second infection. I had to get IV fluids again and I threw up mucous and blood all over the blanket. So now I'm on a different antibiotic and nasal spray. But man I feel like almighty shit. This is day 34 after my last drug and I'm in hell but I've gone too far to go back.

I just read your post Opiyum...thank you, your words make it worth it.

[Nate]

You are so right - just to let you know I got my second infection. I had to get IV fluids again and I threw up mucous and blood all over the blanket. So now I'm on a different antibiotic and nasal spray. But man I feel like almighty shit. This is day 34 after my last drug and I'm in hell but I've gone too far to go back.

I just read your post Opiyum...thank you, your words make it worth it.

Your doing great!! You've made so much progress, you truely are an inspirational!

Hang in there girl!
Nate

[SpecialGuy69]

ZP- how long did the cold-sweats last? Im about to blow my methadone fast taper cause Im tired of the small of my back soaking in sweat all day!

[zenpunk]

I'm still having the sweats, but it might be the infection now, I jumped from bupe on 12/1. I'll know for sure once the antibiotics fully kick in.

[zenpunk]

DIARY 1/18:

Just finished the antibiotics today. I feel like a million bucks. Did yoga 2x this week. I even did a handstand! I found out there's a group of people at NA who are into rock climbing and Native beliefs like me. I'm making new friends. I'm out in the world, breathing the air again. I realized that all the reasons why I used Heroin are now 20 years old and not as big and scary as they were. I can fix this. I used to think that I could never fix me but now I know I can. And that is an amazing feeling. My husband I are going to divorce and the house may have a buyer. But its all okay, we just should have done this a decade ago, that's all. I honestly feel happy now, and I was never, ever happy, as long as I could remember because I was born into hell. But now I'm free.

[GoddessofRATs]

This is wonderful to hear. Keep up the good work. Finding new friends, sober friends is just what you need.

Take care,
GOR

[ZodiacKiller]

Again, you amaze me with your strength and willpower, Zen. Truly an inspiration to me, if not all of us.

And for this, I shall give you as many meager points as my crippled power will allow. (The mighty have indeed, fallen---heh, j/k).

Much luck to the future!




ZK

[zenpunk]

Well its February 3rd and I have 60 days clean. Health-wise, my legs still go through cramping phases, and sometimes it even feels like my blood hurts (if that makes any sense). I had a really good day like 2 Fridays ago, I hope I feel that good again soon.

Today the soon to be ex and I are meeting with the people who are buying the house. Its stressful but necessary.

And I'm doing some new things in life, hitting the gym, taking a Tarot class, thinking about getting my motorcycle license, etc. And there are some new people in my life as I'm learning how to exist in the crazy world out there. My 37th birthday is on Friday and I'm not dreading it, I've got a lot of living yet.

[pizzaboy]

Well its February 3rd and I have 60 days clean. Health-wise, my legs still go through cramping phases, and sometimes it even feels like my blood hurts (if that makes any sense). I had a really good day like 2 Fridays ago, I hope I feel that good again soon.

Today the soon to be ex and I are meeting with the people who are buying the house. Its stressful but necessary.

And I'm doing some new things in life, hitting the gym, taking a Tarot class, thinking about getting my motorcycle license, etc. And there are some new people in my life as I'm learning how to exist in the crazy world out there. My 37th birthday is on Friday and I'm not dreading it, I've got a lot of living yet.

Congrats are in order...2 whole months...wow.

So much of your life echos mine...I do almost anything to follow you into sobriety.

I can't just yet...but I'm still proud of you and happy for you. Keep it up.