Liver Damage?

[Mild_Man]

I posted this in the Hydrocodone forums but I don't think that was the right place plus I didn't fill in all the details. I don't know if I should really worry about this but it's starting to bother me. I apologize in advance for the length.

Me:

I'm a fairly light smoker, 4-5 Full Strength Filtered Cigarettes a day, sometimes 7-9. I don't drink alcohol and don't take OTC meds. I'm 18 and not terribly out of shape. I believe I weigh somewhere around 175-190 pounds, but havn't checked in awhile. About a month ago took a negligable amount of acetaminophen and guaifenesin and even less several weeks before. I started taking this hydrocodone just recently and only a few times spaced out over several weeks. Before doing the hydro pills this time I didn't smoke for a couple days because I didn't have any.

Situation and Questions:

Last Friday I did a Cold Water Extraction on 15 generic hydrocodone pills: 10mg hydro / 500mg APAP so all and all the acetaminophen level was around 7.5g. Now the first time I filtered it the solution was fairly clear which told me alot of APAP was taking out but when I took the sludge and mixed it with water in the refridgerator I don't think I got it cold enough this time because the resulting solution was more milkier. I mixed both of these and took it later that night after not eating for around 7-8 hours. I'm getting kind of scared that I might have damaged my liver because that second filtering might have let alot more apap back in. I hope that in a few days I don't get hepatoxicity. I heard that in well-nourished, non-alcoholic adult, 7.5g can be enough for toxicity with anything over increasing the risk for lethality. There was also 225mg of caffeine in the pills altogether, I also took 800-1000mg of guaifenesin that night which I think is still below the daily limit and I smoked about 4-5 cigarettes that night along with 2 the following night. Do you think I will have problems with this one time amount of 7.5g of APAP along with all of the other stuff? I still got out about a spoonful of APAP sludge and I also think along the way of crushing the pills I may have lost some powder along with also losing some of the sludge on the bowl. I hope this is the case so then I really didn't take in 7.5g. Also, how long until the symptoms of mild hepatotoxicity appear? Would that small amount of cigarettes and caffeine delay the onset of symptoms and how long? Also, is it possible that someone can take an overdose of acetaminophen but experience no apparant physical symptoms of hepatotoxicity? I know this is too long and Candy might not even bothering reading it but if you do parden my paranoid attitude and thanks for any help.

-Thanks

[Zoop]

Dude, relax. You don't have to worry about liver damage until you are taking at least 10-15 grams of APAP a day, maybe more. One time of 7.5g you don't need to worry about. If you did a cold water extraction, even a not-very-good one, you took out some of the APAP.

Now, if my experience is any indication of what a normal adult male's liver can handle, then here goes: I used to take like 30-40 lortab 10/500's per day. That was like 15 to 20 GRAMS of APAP a day. That whole escapade landed me in rehab (this was about 5 years ago) and in that rehab I got my liver enzymes checked. The values were only very slightly elevated even after almost a whole year of 15 to 20 grams of APAP per day. Maybe my liver is made of steel, but I am more apt to think I'm about normal.

So, don't freak.

[paesan]

Yeah I'm with Zoop, you need to relax bro. I guaranty that there are a lot of us here (including myself) who've taken 30+ hydrocodones in a day, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, times. I know I've taken at least 60 of the 10/325's in a day on at least 10 occasions...that's 19.5grams of APAP, and I'm fine. I had my liver checked less than a month ago and I'm healthy as a horse...not 1 single health problem at all. Actually I have a healthy liver, heart, kidneys, low blood pressure, and NO VD, Yeah!!! Man it's good to be young.

[poppy]

Mildman, I think we're all pretty much agreed that you spend way too much time worrying, usually about the state of your liver (not that that's a bad thing, my liver is one of the things I deliberately choose not to think about, probably (make that definitely) I should, because mine has undoubtedly suffered some damage,especially when u add to it the fact that my boyfriend is a confirmed hep c sufferer, but neglected to tell me this fact 'till we'd been together about 5 years because he was scared I'd leave him if he told me!!!!,and they say women are stupid...anyway when u combine that with the fact that I'm a long term IV user of heroin, and a heavy to moderate drinker and ex shall I say heavy speed user u can see why I choose not to think about it...and yes I know its not a good idea to bury one's head in the sand when ones health is concerned, but isn't that what heroin's for....
In all seriousness this year I plan to see the hep c nurse at the place where my meth is prescribed from, but do wonder how successful she will be at taking a blood sample from my over abused veins (this is one of the reasons I haven't been checked before)
Anyway having gone way of track(no pun intended) as far as your liver is concerned mildman I reckon you'll be fine, also did you know that the liver is the one organ in your body which can regenerate itself. Take care. Laters Poppyx

[candy]

Mild Man,
In my opinion, speaking medically, I think your OK. If this was something you were doing on a continuous basis, than maybe I would suggest some concern.
Unless you start to show some symptoms and prove us all wrong, than medical care would be a good idea, but your going to be fine!
Unfortunately when we dabble in this sort of thing, we do take some risks, but as I said, I think in this case your fine and should not worry about liver damage. If liver damage is a real concern, maybe choosing an opiate without acetominophen may be a choice. All drugs are metabolized by the liver, but opiates rarely cause concern for liver damage on their own. Acetominophen(Tylenol) can be toxic to the liver in large doses or for those with existing liver disease.
Just something to think about!

[Mild_Man]

Mild Man,
In my opinion, speaking medically, I think your OK. If this was something you were doing on a continuous basis, than maybe I would suggest some concern.
Unless you start to show some symptoms and prove us all wrong, than medical care would be a good idea, but your going to be fine!
Unfortunately when we dabble in this sort of thing, we do take some risks, but as I said, I think in this case your fine and should not worry about liver damage. If liver damage is a real concern, maybe choosing an opiate without acetominophen may be a choice. All drugs are metabolized by the liver, but opiates rarely cause concern for liver damage on their own. Acetominophen(Tylenol) can be toxic to the liver in large doses or for those with existing liver disease.
Just something to think about!

Yeah, thanks for the replies. I think I'll be alright. Yeah, I just dabbled a few times in this stuff and this will be the last time I'll have opiates seeing as the two bottles were only for my wisdom teeth which is a one time thing.

[Mild_Man]

Well, I don't know if this is due to anything recently but around a week and a half after taking the acetaminophen and everything else I've noticed that I have symptoms that resemble IBS (Irritable Bowel Syndrome) and other more serious conditions. The only thing is that I've only had diarrhea like one or two days in the past week of showing these symptoms and I also have not had any abdominal pain asides from bloating, constipation, and thin stool. I didn't really read anywhere of acetaminophen or the other stuff I took causing these symptoms so it's quite a surprise to me. If anyone could take a guess at where I could have gotten this from thanks because it's not normal for me?

-Thanks

P.S. IBS= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irritable_bowel_syndrome
-At the bottom of that linked page are other conditons with the colon and nearby organs.

[skeletontea]

The only thing is that I've only had diarrhea like one or two days in the past week of showing these symptoms and I also have not had any abdominal pain asides from bloating, constipation, and thin stool. I didn't really read anywhere of acetaminophen or the other stuff I took causing these symptoms so it's quite a surprise to me. If anyone could take a guess at where I could have gotten this from thanks because it's not normal for me?

Constipation is a common side effect of opiate usage, and being "backed up" could certainly cause the bloated feeling you described. After the opiates are no longer in your system, your constipation goes away.

[Mild_Man]

Constipation is a common side effect of opiate usage, and being "backed up" could certainly cause the bloated feeling you described. After the opiates are no longer in your system, your constipation goes away.

Well, the thing is I didn't have any constipation like until a week and a half after taking the opiates, so how could they cause the constipation if they were out of my system already? I did quit smoking recently around the same time just because I wanted to but it was still like a week and a half after that before I felt anything. Hmm... I don't know what's wrong but I guess I should just go to the doctor and get things checked out.

[candy]

Hey Mild Man,
First things first...
Are you still having diarrhea, constipation, and bloating, any or all of these?
It is possible to have diarrhea and constipation at the same time. When we become constipated, if left untreated, one can become impacted. When this happens, the stool above the impaction becomes runny and will look like diarrhea. I doubt your impacted, but the constipation can be due to the opiates. Opiates slow down the motility in the gut, which leads to constipation. Even the rate at which food is digested in the stomach(called peristalsis) is slowed. The full feeling or bloating may be due to constipation.
If your problems are persisting and are getting worse, then maybe seeing the doctor is necessary. If this happened a week ago and you no longer have diarrhea, than I would not worry about it. Some stool softeners, mineral oil, prunes, will help with your constipation.
Avoid products like Metamucil or Fibercon to treat constipation. These can lead to an impaction. While they add fiber to the diet, if not taken with large amounts of water, they can turn into glue in the gut. It will become a hard lump in the intestines and can be a miserable time getting out.

I think your fine. As I said, if your not having diarrhea now, I really would not worry. Constipation is a normal occurence when taking opiates, as most of us on here will tell you. Don't rely on laxatives if constipation becomes a problem. Laxatives can actually make this problem worse with long term or chronic use. Over time, the bowel will lose it's motility and you don't want that.

If your not taking the Vicodin any longer and are not having the same symptoms, I think your fine. Sometimes too much information can lead to some anxiety. Maybe you had a touch of the stomach flu. When I first became a nurse, I swear I diagnosed myself with every damn disease known to man. Could you be psyching yourself out a bit. Not to discount your feelings or concerns in anyway. All your questions are valid, but let's look at some other reasons for these symptoms you had.
If you like you can send me a PM or email. I will be more than happy to answer any questions you had.
Be well.

[renton]

after considerable reading and experience in this area I can offer some helpfull tips i think. First cold water extraction removes almost all the acetaminophen aslong as you dont use too much water and the water is just above freezing. I know for extracting codeine I usually use about 2 to 3ml water for every pill. The second thing is dont drink booz if your worried about your liver. Alcohol is probably the worst thing for the liver especially when mixed with acetaminophen, but on the plus side the average healthy persons liver can recover from something like %90 damage in some cases. My g/f once overdosed on over 40 tylenols and her liver has now repaired itself. So dont worry too much and limit yourself to 4grams max a day if you dont drink and you will be fine.

rents

[candy]

Renton- Cold water extraction is the way to go.
The liver is a remarkable organ and can regenerate new cells to repair itself.
Alcohol can do damage to the liver, especially if one consumes daily. Combining this with high doses of acetominophen can lead to liver damage.

The FDA is considering a change regarding acetominophen. Is 4 grams a day too much?

It's great that those of us on this site are more familiar with the effects of what we take. But, that is not always the case with your average consumer. With many OTC meds containing acetominophen, could the average person be taking too much? While not all are not consuming acetominophen on a daily basis, those who may be taking it for pain daily, may combine it with a cold medication and do some damage.

For anyone with liver disease, such as Hep C, my suggestion is to just avoid acetominphen if you can. Certainly isn't going to kill you to take it, but there are other options, such as Ibuprofen or other pain meds available. Acetominphen in a combination with Codeine or Vicodin, helps to potentiate the effects of the opiate in relieving pain. So taking something like Ibuprofen in combination with Vicodin alone will do just about the same thing. And Ibuprofen is great at decreasing inflammation, which is a cause for pain.

I really think it is great the knowledge that so many have on this site. I learn something new all the time.

[Mild_Man]

Hey Mild Man,
First things first...
Are you still having diarrhea, constipation, and bloating, any or all of these?
It is possible to have diarrhea and constipation at the same time. When we become constipated, if left untreated, one can become impacted. When this happens, the stool above the impaction becomes runny and will look like diarrhea. I doubt your impacted, but the constipation can be due to the opiates. Opiates slow down the motility in the gut, which leads to constipation. Even the rate at which food is digested in the stomach(called peristalsis) is slowed. The full feeling or bloating may be due to constipation.
If your problems are persisting and are getting worse, then maybe seeing the doctor is necessary. If this happened a week ago and you no longer have diarrhea, than I would not worry about it. Some stool softeners, mineral oil, prunes, will help with your constipation.
Avoid products like Metamucil or Fibercon to treat constipation. These can lead to an impaction. While they add fiber to the diet, if not taken with large amounts of water, they can turn into glue in the gut. It will become a hard lump in the intestines and can be a miserable time getting out.

I think your fine. As I said, if your not having diarrhea now, I really would not worry. Constipation is a normal occurence when taking opiates, as most of us on here will tell you. Don't rely on laxatives if constipation becomes a problem. Laxatives can actually make this problem worse with long term or chronic use. Over time, the bowel will lose it's motility and you don't want that.

If your not taking the Vicodin any longer and are not having the same symptoms, I think your fine. Sometimes too much information can lead to some anxiety. Maybe you had a touch of the stomach flu. When I first became a nurse, I swear I diagnosed myself with every damn disease known to man. Could you be psyching yourself out a bit. Not to discount your feelings or concerns in anyway. All your questions are valid, but let's look at some other reasons for these symptoms you had.
If you like you can send me a PM or email. I will be more than happy to answer any questions you had.
Be well.

Well, the diarhea is just like once in awhile and when it comes it's not really bad if it is indeed diarhea at all. Lately the boating is actually not there anymore or it has lessened. I've started to just exercise somewhat in the day more and eat more fiber, not metamucil or that stuff, but just cereal and fruit and vegetables. I also drink mainly water and try to drink more of it. I've still noticed that I'm constipated when I go to the bathroom and it's hard at times to get things out. The other thing is that my stool suddenly become real skinny and flat most of the times like a pencil. I've heard that constipation and thin/skinny stool could be a sign of something more serious so that's just why I'm a little worried.

[Zanzibar]

Mildman, maybe you should have yourself checked out for hemorrhoids. If you have latent/mild hemorrhoids that you are even possibly unaware of, a bout of constipation (all the straining etc) can certainly swell them so badly that everything becomes blocked - hence the alternating diarrhea and constipation.

And it certainly would account for bloating, discomfort and thin squeezed out stool.

Hope this helps...

[GMorris]

Well, the diarhea is just like once in awhile and when it comes it's not really bad if it is indeed diarhea at all. Lately the boating is actually not there anymore or it has lessened. I've started to just exercise somewhat in the day more and eat more fiber, not metamucil or that stuff, but just cereal and fruit and vegetables. I also drink mainly water and try to drink more of it. I've still noticed that I'm constipated when I go to the bathroom and it's hard at times to get things out. The other thing is that my stool suddenly become real skinny and flat most of the times like a pencil. I've heard that constipation and thin/skinny stool could be a sign of something more serious so that's just why I'm a little worried.
OH..MY..GOD!

Dude, I can imagine why you are so worried. Now, I don't want to alarm you, but that skinny flat shit is a sign that you might have a blockage. I had that and it wasn't nice at all. My turds would come out all flat and skinny because (the doctor told me this) they were having to squeeze around a lot of hard, blocked turds. Sometimes, it would just be diarrhea but once I couldn't go for a few days and it scared the shit out of me (no pun intended)! I could feel the blockage trying to come out, but it was so HUGE that it would not pass and I almost passed out trying to push it out. I strained until I thought I would burst a blood vessel. I ended up actually reaching my finger up my a-hole and literally breaking the thing up with my finger. It took many painful hours, stunk like all hell, and was one of the grossest things I've ever had to do, but I'm just glad that I didn't have to go to the hospital and have someone else do it! Little by little, I broke that big bastard up and pulled out piece after piece of hard black shit. Boy was it painful! Looked like tire rubber and was just as hard, but eventually the dam broke and I took the most stinking shit I can ever hope to remember.

As a side note, a long time friend of my dad's got colon cancer and would only shit once a month. One day as he was taking his monthly, suddenly blood came pouring out and he turned white as a sheet. When he was done, he came out of the bathroom just sweating like a pig, and announced that he had passed what looked like a long piece of raw meat. Turns out that by that time, he was in the advanced stages of colon cancer and that really WAS a piece of his intestine that came out! Needless to say he was operated on and lived the last few years with a colostomy bag until he went to hospice and died.

I'd be real worried if I were you, dude...

[devilsdrug]

yeh dude id be so worried id call the psch and have your brain checked for blockage

[Mild_Man]

Okay, I don't know if GMorris was being sarcastic or what but I'm not trying to get all paranoid. I know this probably has nothing to do with the acetaminophen or other stuff. It's just that this is all weird in that I've never had this happen before. I'm probably going to just go to the doctor and get some stuff done. :(:eek:

[Zanzibar]

Don't mind them, Mildman. they're just full of shit, heh heh ... It's probably nothing more than a blockage or piles. Get to your doctor as soon as you can and he'll probably give you back your peace of mind in five minutes.

[duke_nemmerle]

GAHHHH, if there's one thing I can say for pods, the most horrible constipation ever

[GMorris]

Well I was dead serious about everything I said, and may the Good Lord strike me down if any of it was a lie. I was scared as hell when that happened and so worried about going to the hospital that I really did dig that huge turd out piece by piece, it really did hurt like a bastard, and once that big boy was out I began to shit normally once again. You can take it any way you like, but I'd be worried again if it was happening to me.

[Mild_Man]

Well I was dead serious about everything I said, and may the Good Lord strike me down if any of it was a lie. I was scared as hell when that happened and so worried about going to the hospital that I really did dig that huge turd out piece by piece, it really did hurt like a bastard, and once that big boy was out I began to shit normally once again. You can take it any way you like, but I'd be worried again if it was happening to me.

Well, the thing is that having the symptoms that I am having especially since they're not really severe can be tied to many different causes and not just extreme cases like colon cancer or blockage that are a little too extreme for my case. But I'm still going to go to the doctor and talk with him to straighten things out.

[GMorris]

Good for you. I really hope it isn't anything serious, but it never hurts to be cautious. Hell, I never expected anything like that to happen to me, but it did and it was horribly frightening. I just related the story about my dad's friend for the hell of it since it was so bizarre. Can you imagine having colon cancer for that long and not even suspecting there was anything wrong, only to pass a chunk of intestine one day? That had to be the scariest thing to happen. He was my dad's best friend in his adult life and Pop still misses the dude after all these years. The guy was one of those unique personalities that you never meet but once in a lifetime.

[Zanzibar]

I have a friend who got colon cancer, and it really is scary stuff, GMorris. She got cured because they caught it so early, so yes, when it comes to health issues, rather get them sorted out as soon as possible. Our organs are pretty forgiving as it is, considering the stuff we put into our bodies.

[exitwound]

I think that any frequent user whether recreational, "lifestyle," or chronic pain sufferer.....has had this kind of experience. Turds so damn wide you have to help them out you're afraid you'll snap your poor sphincter like a broken rubber band. Not particularly fun, but it's one of those junkie/opiophile things that nobody else would think of but one of us.... :rolleyes: :D

Stock up on Docusate Sodium (stool softener), lots of fibrous foods/cereals, fruits & veggies, and of course fiber supplements like Metamucil. And your other types of laxatives.

[Mild_Man]

I think that any frequent user whether recreational, "lifestyle," or chronic pain sufferer.....has had this kind of experience. Turds so damn wide you have to help them out you're afraid you'll snap your poor sphincter like a broken rubber band. Not particularly fun, but it's one of those junkie/opiophile things that nobody else would think of but one of us.... :rolleyes: :D

Stock up on Docusate Sodium (stool softener), lots of fibrous foods/cereals, fruits & veggies, and of course fiber supplements like Metamucil. And your other types of laxatives.

Well, the thing is that I'm not a regular opiate user and have only used hydrocodone a few times or so and not really in excessive amounts. Also spaced the times I used them out by several weeks sometimes, so I don't know where this came from.

[JimmyJoe]

I respectfully disagree with some of the above posts that taking up to 10 grams of tylenol a day is not dangerous. The newest research and case studies have shown cases of serious liver damage in people taking as little as 5000-6000mg per day. You've only got one liver and in my opinion it is simply not worth it to risk damaging your liver. It is best to take a break from time to time to reduce tolerance, but I would not play around with acetaminophen. That stuff is more dangerous than the opiates in the painkillers themselves and many of the emergency room visits for overdoses have resulted from the complications of taking too much tylenol as opposed to true overdose on the hydro or oxycodone. The symptoms of liver disfunction are many but some of them include fatigue and swelling in the extremities such as the fingers and toes. Also mental confusion is a warning sign that something could be wrong as well as changes in the body.

[doctor opiate]

Hello to you all out there. I wish you all safe, and fun opiate use.
I wanted to clarify some information about liver damage related to too much acetominophen (paracetamol)/ (tylenol) for you.

I read some posts, and unfortunately, some of the information is incorrect. If you are taking too many vicodin, percocet, etc. (the real problem is too much tylenol).

The max. daily reccomended dose is 4,000mg (4g) per day. However, that is reccomended. You usually do not have liver toxicity until you start to take doses of 8 to 10g AT ONE TIME. So if you want to take lots of vicodin with tylenol, take it spread out over the day, and try not to go over 7.5 grams of tylenol. SOme of you said that "I took 30 vicodin), over 10 to 20 grams of tylenol in a day with no problems, and my liver enzymes were normal". That is not safe. What happens is when you take too much tylenol at one time, the tylenol is broken down by a good enzyme made by your liver called GLUTATHIONE. If you take more than 8g or so at one time, you use up all the good glutathione, and then, your liver has no more of this good stuff to counteract and detoxify the tylenol. THen, instead of binding with the glutathione which is now depleted, the excess tylenol binds with your liver cells and starts to destroy them. THis is the # 1 cause of liver failure in the US (tylenol overdose) and #1 cause of ER visits for overdose in the US. What happens is you may think you are fine. But, AFTER the damage is done to your liver, the liver enzymes (SGOT, SGPT, etc.) are first elevated the first few hours 4 or so, after the toxic dose, and THEN, later, they reduce to normal. (typically). SO you may think it is fine, but you actually KILLED LIVER cells. If you have nausea, vomitting, yellow eyes, etc. you are overdosing most likely on tylenol, and need the antidote (Acetylcysteine (mucomyst)) within 4 to 24 hours of overdose in order to save liver cells. Once past 24 hours, it is pretty much useless to go to ER, as the damage is done. After doing this many times, you eventually will likely go into liver failure and either die, or need a liver replacement. If you end up taking too much tylenol, you can do 2 things besides go to the ER.(REccomended). You can 1. take acetylcysteine (NAC).. they have them in pill form at many vitimin health stores. THese will detoxify the tylenol, and prevent futher liver damage. The next best thing is to take a natural herb called Milk Thistle (Silimarin or Silibum). these Strongly bind covalently with the tylenol, and prevent the excess tylenol from instead binding and therefore destroying your liver.
If you are going to take too much tylenol (via too much vicodin, norco, percoset, or anything with tylenol), you MUST take one of these 2 remedies at the same time. These will not only replenish the critically important glutathione levels, and therefore help reduce liver damage, but they also help to fix damaged liver cells, and replace some of them. Do not fool yourselves. NEVER take more than 8grams of tylenol per dose, and never take more than 8 to 10 grams per 24 hour period AT ALL. You may feel fine for 3 days, but may need a liver transplant, or DIE soon thereafter. Do CWE (cold water extraction) to help remove tylenol to be safer (not totally safe though). Take the remedies also. Take it from me. I am a physician, and have signed the death certificiates of patients with liver failure from tylenol. I do not want to scare any of you, but I want to give you real, proven information about the dangers of tylenol from controlled toxicological studies and scientific/medical evidence to help you. Enjoy the opiate euphoria, but do it in moderation, and safely. I enjoy opiates myself, but it is so important to do it safely. It is not worth losing your life over. Take the remedies I reccomended, and Do not take large doses of tylenol all in one dose, or lots over a long period of time, if you value your liver or life. If in doubt, go to the ER, and have your liver enzymes checked, and tylenol blood level checked. (more than 150mg/kg can be toxic! Take care!!
Feel free to ask me any questions you have about this, and enjoy the opiates.. safely as possible and in moderation.
All the best to you.
Doctor Opiate :)

[devilsdrug]

that must be what happened to the guy who started this thread cause he aint been back he was kinda spooky anyway

[HistoryofMadness]

OH..MY..GOD!

Dude, I can imagine why you are so worried. Now, I don't want to alarm you, but that skinny flat shit is a sign that you might have a blockage. I had that and it wasn't nice at all. My turds would come out all flat and skinny because (the doctor told me this) they were having to squeeze around a lot of hard, blocked turds. Sometimes, it would just be diarrhea but once I couldn't go for a few days and it scared the shit out of me (no pun intended)! I could feel the blockage trying to come out, but it was so HUGE that it would not pass and I almost passed out trying to push it out. I strained until I thought I would burst a blood vessel. I ended up actually reaching my finger up my a-hole and literally breaking the thing up with my finger. It took many painful hours, stunk like all hell, and was one of the grossest things I've ever had to do, but I'm just glad that I didn't have to go to the hospital and have someone else do it! Little by little, I broke that big bastard up and pulled out piece after piece of hard black shit. Boy was it painful! Looked like tire rubber and was just as hard, but eventually the dam broke and I took the most stinking shit I can ever hope to remember.



I know this is an older post, and sorry to bring back bad memories gmorris, but this story is kinda like a cross between jacky's post, 'shitting out of my mouth' and that whitney and bobby episode, I didn't see it but i heard bobby brown dug a brick piece of shit out of whitney's ass... and whitney exclaimed 'now that was love!'...

or maybe she said 'how will i know if he really loves me... ' then he pulled shit from her ass and, well, the rest is history.

[poppy]

Oh dear definitely 'too much information' at least for me!
Still not quite on par with 'Jacky's shitting out of his mouth' experience but close and definitely quite enough for me without some sort of sedation!!!(maybe that's the problem?!?) Yuk, some things should remain private!!