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tch2296
10-18-2007, 01:14 AM
I have been on suboxone for about 6 months now, having weaned myself from 24 mg per day to 12 mg per day at this point. However, I obtained 5 60 mg Morphine tablets, a clean needle, and an urge to get ripped. How long do I have to wait if I've taken like 10 mg in the past 36 hours before I should slam that morphine into my favorite vein? I figure since I'm banging it might just overwhelm the small amount of suboxone in my system. Anyone with experience, please help, I would appreciate it very much and you can rest easy knowing you are keeping me high as this smilie looks: :cool: (and safe to of course)!


I should note that I have posted identical threads in both the morphine and buprenorphine sections of the forums, I hope I don't seem redundant or annoying but this is important as I will be shooting the morphine within 24 hours.

Love all you guys you helped me through the worst times of my life (vicodin/heroin/oxycontin addiction) and I love the community you have formed, you should be fuckin proud of yourselves. Although I don't visit much, I respect this community very much and empathize with those of you in pain or reaching out for help. Just know you're not alone and you are in complete control of your life and what you do with it. Sorry to ramble, I just took some Ecstasy from Amsterdam and hushed a bit but you guys are the shit man! :D

All of the aforementioned accounts and proposals are, of course, purely hypothetical in nature.

Dirtyrockstar
10-18-2007, 08:43 AM
based on my personal experience using subbies and morph side by side, if you use subs regularly ur body gets rid of it faster, if you only had 10mg in the last 36hrs (even if it was IV) i say smash the morph BUT have a bit extra to compensate. morph can be felt almost to its full extent on top of subs. if i have subs in my system i just crush two pills instead of one and everything is rosey.

but dont try it the other way, always wait at least 24hrs after morph before having subs

roxi*stardust
10-18-2007, 09:44 AM
Any dose of Bupe over 8mg causes a blockade. I would wait 48-72 hours after the last dose of bupe before trying to use ay opiates, especially since you are on a high dose.

Dirtyrockstar
10-18-2007, 10:19 AM
it would block if you tried using morph right away, but i have found from experience that after 24hrs (i never have more than 12mg of bupe btw) i feel my usual dose of morph (admittedly its more like 80% sedation and euphoria with a more pronounced itch/burn/physical sensation ) and i can get high as all fuck by doubling it. after 48hrs its " atchoo!! *sniff* what bupe? *sniff* "

i know your not SUPPOSED to feel morph after bupe, but you can and we do.

Canis aureus
10-18-2007, 12:27 PM
Those blocking things are always very very subjective or individual things. I was able to get high very well after 24 hours, quite well yet after 12 hours. And my dose was 24 mg.

Duckfeet
10-18-2007, 12:32 PM
I kind of agree with you, on the subjectivity of this thing. Every once in a while, while on subs, I'd get some good NE heroin, and I'd give 24 hrs--I'd do pill every morning, so just wait til next morning, and always got rush...so for me, 24 hrs is good, but again, everybody is different, and if you are *strungout* want to be careful because if you stay well by doing a different opiate, it will all get kicked back out when u do subs again...so PW's are always a risk...but again, everybody seems to figure out what works for them...



Those blocking things are always very very subjective or individual things. I was able to get high very well after 24 hours, quite well yet after 12 hours. And my dose was 24 mg.

chopstix
10-18-2007, 12:56 PM
It is subjective but Roxi is right, 10mg within 24hrs is kind of a lot and pushing the window. He'll probably feel it, the question is how much...

mikells43
10-18-2007, 10:19 PM
the mean half life of bupe is 37 hours.... so half of ur last dose will still be in u at 37 hours.....

laudaphun
10-19-2007, 05:04 AM
The problem with the 37 hour half life thing is that we tend to take it every 24 hours and I believe it tends to build up in your system. SWIM has been on 8mg suboxone per day for almost 2 years now and lately have been experimenting with oxycontin usage after certain durations of abstinance from suboxone. My suboxone dose has never changed in the 2 years. The first time SWIM tried doing oxy after being on suboxone... about after 1 1/2 years of being on suboxone. SWIM obtained 5 brandname 40s and waited about 80 hours or so... proceeded to rail 40mg which provided a nice little oxy rush but then nothing. So SWIM railed another 60mg and this got him feeling pretty euphoric. Several hours had passed and SWIM railed his last 40mg about 6 hours after the initial 40mg and the last 40mg shot pushed the oxy into full effect.

Other experiments since have been obtaining usually 5 40mg oxys but insufflated rather than railed. SWIM's last experiment was to insufflate a 40mg oxy every 24 hours since last 8mg suboxone dosage. At 24 hours since last sub, mild feeling is noted, however no additional amount of oxy will add any additional effect. At 48 hours since last sub, it's the same thing... a mild feeling is noted, but still no additional amount will add any effect. At 72 hours cravings really beginning to set in, but the effects of 40mg were more pronounced however weak. At this point SWIm could no longer wait 24 hours in between doses, so at 84 hours SWIM took his 4th 40mg and it got SWIM high... 6 hours later and SWIM did his final 40mg and had a full blow oxy effect.

Several other attempts such as an 80mg insufflated dose at 60 hours had little effect... My conclusion for insufflation of oxy, for someone who has been on an 8mg dosage for a long while, to get a good efffect a person should wait somewhere between 72 and 96 hours to get full effects.

SWIM's is at 72 hours since last suboxone usage and is about to rail some oxy... He really want's to wait til 84 hours but the chances of that happening or slim and none... unless he were to divide it into 2 doses which might be a smart idea.

Sorry about the lengthy post, but SWIM has really working on these "experiments" to figure out how long a person needs to wait.... A lot of money has been wasted on null or minimal effects. All future experiments will be via I.V. oxy or bags...

laudaphun
10-19-2007, 05:58 AM
I just wanted to let you all know, SWIM has just conducted another experiment. While most of SWIM's experiments have been conducted with oxycodone via insufflation, SWIM just conducted an experiment as follows:

Time Since Last Suboxone: 71 hours
Last Suboxone Dosage: 8mg

Drug: Oxycodone (oxycontin brandname 80mg pill)
Method of Injestion: I.V.
Dosage: 40mg Injection, immediately followed by a 2nd 40mg Injection (So, x2 40mg I.V. injections a few minutes apart)
Results: After the first 40mg injection, a mild to moderate oxy rush was noted, followed by mild euphoria. After the 2nd 40mg injection no rush really initially upon injection however effects of the oxy became MUCH more pronounced. Almost immediately nose began to get itchy, eyelids very heavy, keep wanting to nod out.
Conclusion: For oxycodone, 72 hours is long enough to wait for an I.V. injection Based on previous experiments insufflation may require a slightly longer wait. If SWIM were to repeat the experiment, he would use 1 80mg injection instead of 2 40mg injections... SWIM only divided the dose as a precaution in case the suboxone blocking effect was still strong enough to dull the effects too much.

On a side note: clean, brand new needles fresh out of the wrappers were used for each injection.

is_today_monday
10-19-2007, 06:03 AM
I'm one of the lucky few who can dose on my subs, and then have a shot of whatever, and still feel it. I've posted before about my experiences being able to do that, including the time I overdosed because I took too much on top of the Suboxone.

There's no real hard and fast rule about these things. It's entirely up to the individual, and their metabolism and brain chemistry.

laudaphun
10-19-2007, 06:34 AM
Just out of curiousity, how long have you been on suboxone and what dosage? I'm still trying to understand the whole suboxone blocking thing. I also think perhaps that long term usage of suboxone may cause not only the blocking effect for X number of hours but also a high tolerance. SWIM definitely has a hard time keeping the sick away after he waits long enough to be able to get high on full agonists. Basically once he is able to get a full blown opiate effect, he begins to require frequent doses of a shorter-acting full agonists... I guess that's why Swim never goes off of suboxone longer than 5-6 days tops. Even that long of a break is infrequent.

is_today_monday
10-20-2007, 03:31 AM
Just out of curiousity, how long have you been on suboxone and what dosage? I'm still trying to understand the whole suboxone blocking thing. I also think perhaps that long term usage of suboxone may cause not only the blocking effect for X number of hours but also a high tolerance. SWIM definitely has a hard time keeping the sick away after he waits long enough to be able to get high on full agonists. Basically once he is able to get a full blown opiate effect, he begins to require frequent doses of a shorter-acting full agonists... I guess that's why Swim never goes off of suboxone longer than 5-6 days tops. Even that long of a break is infrequent.


Was that question directed to me? I'll answer on the assumption that it was - if it wasn't, well, maybe my info will be useful anyway.

I'm on 12mg Suboxone, and have been on it for three months now. I dose every second day, utilising the extended time the dosage lasts, instead of it having more effect, by taking 24mg. It means I don't have to turn up to the dosing clinic every day (here, Suboxone is usually distributed at the same clinic as methadone) and I have a bit more flexibility.

I dosed today, 24mg (so I won't have to get up early tomorrow to go to the clinic) and this evening I had about 60mg Oxycontin IV. While the rush isn't as strong as it was before I had a habit, and my tolerance obviously being maintained by Suboxone, I definitely felt it, got the taste in my mouth and feel quite comfortable right now.

I've been able to use on top of Suboxone right from the beginning, and I think I'm just one of the rare few who doesn't get the blocking effect. Like I mentioned, I overdosed IVing 100mg MS Contin on top of the 24mg Suboxone. Had never done that before, even as a beginner or when I progressed to Heroin. It was definitely an experience.

Anyway, if your question wasn't directed at me, excuse me for this (probably) boring post :)

laudaphun
10-20-2007, 10:48 AM
Yes, my question was directed at you. And WOW! 24mg suboxone, I'm surprised you can feel anything. I know the original thread topic was specific to morphine and suboxone, but I'd imagine if the average joe was able to feel anything on top of suboxone, it would be I.V. morphine... even if it was only a little rush. SWIM has never experiemented with morphine after using suboxone... only oxy and heroin, both of which get blocked for quite awhile at least in his case.

I've read that people can overdose if they are trying to get high by using a full agonist and keep using more and more while the suboxone blockade is fading... then it is gone and all of a sudden the receptors are overwelmed by the mass amount of opiates no longer blocked. I think I read that on the suboxone package insert

Duckfeet
10-20-2007, 10:55 AM
To me, one of the major problems, of having a little knowledge about "half-life" and "blocking" and other terms we now throw around...is that it can lull us into thinking we can predict accurately what a drug will now do in our own bodies, and how safe it is. To me, it's bullshit. Everybody's so different, and our bodies process drugs so differently. I mean I've had personal experience, of one junky on the same dose of methadone, me, overdosing, while my pal, on same dose, for same length of time, pretty much, took me to the hospital. It's *so* subjective and dependent upon body types and intangible factors to be almost useless, and why I worry when we give out numbers and facts and figures as tho that will protect you when you dial out, or ensure a buzz, when we haven't got a clue... You better learn your own tolerance and limits, thru personal experience and observation, and be very skeptical of anything we post on here, just because it sounds learned...

is_today_monday
10-21-2007, 02:15 AM
To me, one of the major problems, of having a little knowledge about "half-life" and "blocking" and other terms we now throw around...is that it can lull us into thinking we can predict accurately what a drug will now do in our own bodies, and how safe it is. To me, it's bullshit. Everybody's so different, and our bodies process drugs so differently. I mean I've had personal experience, of one junky on the same dose of methadone, me, overdosing, while my pal, on same dose, for same length of time, pretty much, took me to the hospital. It's *so* subjective and dependent upon body types and intangible factors to be almost useless, and why I worry when we give out numbers and facts and figures as tho that will protect you when you dial out, or ensure a buzz, when we haven't got a clue... You better learn your own tolerance and limits, thru personal experience and observation, and be very skeptical of anything we post on here, just because it sounds learned...


I definitely agree, Duckfeet - My reason for including the amounts was for my own personal experience. In the past, before I got on the Suboxone, 100mg MS Contin, or even 80mg Oxy wouldn't do shit; however, while being on Suboxone, the MS Contin sent me into an OD, and less than a full 80mg Oxy was felt. Tonight I did a full 80, and I felt it, but I also have the nausea associated with higher levels of opiates, because of the Bupe.

If you are going to use on Suboxone, or Methadone, or indeed just mixing different full agonists, it's best to start small and work up, because you never know how your body is going to cope with the interaction of drugs.

Duckfeet, if I caused any offense, I do apologise. I wasn't writing this as a guide as to what you can feel if you do X amount of this and Y amount of that; I was just stating my experiences of being able to use on top of Suboxone, that I don't seem to have the blocking effect that so many people hear about, or experience.

Guys, don't count of the blocking effect to be there; like I said, work up slowly. When I overdose with the morphine, it was because I took the blocking effect into account, as well as trying to be careful because I knew that, although bupe is only a partial agonist, it is still a CNS depressant.

Duckfeet
10-21-2007, 02:22 AM
Oh no, not at all, I do the same thing: post what I know and what's worked for me, and was just throwing out my usual harm reduction chatter. You know how it is, some people will read something on here, and think, o.k., I read it on Opiophile, it must be cool...

Nope, I find your posts informative as hell, and I like reading them...just making sure the newbies realize there's no sure thing with this stuff...

All the best!



Duckfeet, if I caused any offense, I do apologise. I wasn't writing this as a guide as to what you can feel if you do X amount of this and Y amount of that; I was just stating my experiences of being able to use on top of Suboxone, that I don't seem to have the blocking effect that so many people hear about, or experience.

Guys, don't count of the blocking effect to be there; like I said, work up slowly. When I overdose with the morphine, it was because I took the blocking effect into account, as well as trying to be careful because I knew that, although bupe is only a partial agonist, it is still a CNS depressant.

Dirtyrockstar
10-21-2007, 02:32 AM
narcan doesnt affect bupe, so if you od with subutex in your system, and they shoot you up with narcan theoretically you wouldnt go into instant withdrawal coz you still have subs floating around.

so what do you give for a bupe overdose?

is_today_monday
10-21-2007, 03:54 AM
narcan doesnt affect bupe, so if you od with subutex in your system, and they shoot you up with narcan theoretically you wouldnt go into instant withdrawal coz you still have subs floating around.

so what do you give for a bupe overdose?


Narcan does affect Bupe, they just need a hell of a lot more to have any effect. When I started on the programme, I was given a card to fill out and carry in my wallet. It serves two purposes; the first, if I'm in an accident or something, they can give adequate pain relief (they usually need more to overcome the effects of Suboxone; and secondly, it warns that, in case of an overdose, 15 - 20 times the amount of Narcan will be needed to reverse the overdose.

It's very rare to overdose on Suboxone - usually it only happens when it's mixed with something else, like heroin, morphine, oxy, barbiturates or alcohol. Some of those have their own antagonists, which they will most likely use first, and then if you're still not coming around, use very large doses of narcan until it has an effect. It's so difficult to overdose on Suboxone alone though, which is why they use it (especially in Australia) much more than Methadone where applicable. It has a much less lower overdose and side effect profile.


P.S - Thanks Duckfeet! I'm glad to hear that my posts aren't too much of a waste of reading time :p

laudaphun
10-21-2007, 09:13 AM
Monday,
I'm very intrigued at your experiences with bupe and full agonists, you are probably the first person I've came across that actually had their agonist effects intesified by bupe... Given the pharmcological properties of buprenorphine, that shouldn't happen. However, everyone is different. Just like some are born genius and other born mentally handicapped. I'd love to know what it is that makes your experiences with mixing bupe and full agonists different than most. I do not doubt you, i'm just very interested. Maybe you have a super fast metabolism of bupe, maybe ... who knows.

Anyways I have a suboxone/subutex package insert here I keep in my medicine cabinet and for overdoses it states in capital letters, which i will exclude:
"in the case of overdose, the primary management should be the re-establlishment of adequate ventilation with mehcanical assistance of respiration if required. naloxone may not be effective in reversing any respiratory depression produced by buprenorphine."

...underneath that in lowercase it says:
"High doses of naloxone hydrochloride, 10-35mg/70kg may be of limited value in the management of buprenorophine overdose. Doxapram (a respiratory stimulant) also has been used."

Well, I guess we are getting off topic a bit but Duckfeet is also very very correct and I couldn't agree more about not gauging your dosages by something you read on the internet. I've seen some posts on different forums of people who claim to have consumed huge amounts of certain drugs and not felt it or whatever and to me that endangers a lot of youngsters out there surfing the net looking for some information before experimenting with a particular substance. I know that is exactlly what i did growing up... Before I ever consumed any substance, even if ti was not a controlled substance, I looked it up on the internet and read everything i could find about it before taking it. My appologies if i seem long winded... that's how i talk irl also hehe.

Dirtyrockstar
10-21-2007, 12:06 PM
i presume that OD'ing on suboxone would be more difficult because of the narcan included. presumably that would remove any traces of agonists before being metabolised or brushed aside by bupe molecules binding away with great affinity.

i have heard of someone going over with plain subutex, but they did a shitload of it on purpose and helped themselves along with 30 or 40 serepax. sad really.

who cares if it goes off topic. im sure the total of threads that do so you could just about squeeze into the grand fucking canyon. in full agreement tho, noone should base their use on what they read on an internet forum, even if it was opiophile and what was written sounds accurate

Inspektahdek
10-21-2007, 05:34 PM
personal experience= 48 hours, roughly give or take depends on your dose, wait until u have watery eyes and runny nose, no deside to eat food, thats when I can get blasted and blatant

is_today_monday
10-21-2007, 06:54 PM
First of all, let me begin this by saying that I've always been known as some kind of medication/drug freak. No matter what medication it is, I seem to get the opposite effect to what I should be experiencing, or it clears out of my system a lot quicker (as evident by medications which needed close blood monitoring to make sure I was in therapeutic levels) and other times, the slightest increase, even as small as 10% could be way to high; a reduction of the same amount could have the (opposite) reaction.

I'll also type out what is in the card I carry, that was included in the book and paperwork I received when I began the programme;


To the Medical Personal Treating Me in an Emergency
This patient is taking the drug buprenorphine/naloxone (Suboxone), a combination partial opiate agonist and antagonist.

Patients taking buprenorphine/naloxone may have a diminished response to opiate medications (including those for the management of cough or pain). Opiate-containing preparations should be avoided when non-opiate therapy is available as an alternative.

In an emergency situation requiring pain relief in patients taking Suboxone, a suggested plan of management is regional anaesthesia, conscious sedation with a benzodiazepine, use of non-opioid analgesics or general anaesthesia.

In a situation requiring opiate analgesia, the dose of opiate required may be greater than usual. A rapidly acting opiate analgesic which minimises the duration of respiratory depression should be used. The dose of opioid medication should be titrated against the patient's analgesic and physiological response, with close monitoring by trained staff.

Overdose with buprenorphine/naloxone alone is very uncommon. In a situation that a patient taking buprenorphine/naloxone has overdosed and is unconscious, high doses of naloxone (up to 10-15 times normal dose) may be required to reverse the opiate intoxication. It is recommended that naloxone doses be titrated upwards until the desired response is achieved. The patient should be monitored for at least several hours afterwards.


Ok, so there's the card that I have to carry around in my wallet. It means I can be treated with adequate pain relief, if the situation arises (genuine, I should say) and in case of overdose, they are able to understand better how that can be achieved.

I do have an extremely fast metabolism when it comes to drugs (of the illegal or otherwise variety) which means I usually have to dose more often than most people do. That's not to say I don't get extra doses of Suboxone from the clinic. Unfortunately, I'm stuck with what they give me. I think that's part of the reason I 'supplement' my sponsored addiction by doing other opioids.

Laudaphun, I don't know the exact why this works for me, when so many other people don't share the same experience. I'm grateful each time I use though, because I'm not taking for granted that I'll always be able to do and feel this. I'm always on the look out (feel out?) for the day the blocking effects of bupe are there in full force, but I would think after being on the programme for three months on 12/24mg (depending on a single or double dose) that I'm not going to run into dramas anytime soon. Once again though, I'm not going to count on that as a 100% guaranteed thing.


Dirtyrockstar, when taken properly, as in dissolved under the tongue, very little Narcan enters the system for it to make any difference whatsoever. It's only if you inject it that it causes issues, and even then, only if you've had any other opiates previous to that (unless of course you've only taken bupe - if that's the case, injecting narcan won't do much at all, not in the very small doses that are in the pills).

As for the person you know who overdosed, you said yourself that he/she had taken a shit load of oxazepam along with it. Buprenorphine alone is very difficult to overdose on. I read a study, I'm not sure where it was now, that said the only people who died from suboxone were those who partook in one of the three B's as well - Benzos, Barbiturates and Booze.

Now, I've probably gone wildly off topic, and I do apologise for any thread de-railing I've done; It is possible to overdose on Suboxone, but extremely unlikely unless you miss it with other CNS depressants.

Finally, I'm going to put in that harm reduction warning that people are probably sick of seeing, but I need to say it - the information I've written above is part information (from the official Suboxone guide book) but I have to say that a lot of this is unlikely to result in anything except trouble for a lot of you. It doesn't matter how careful you are, hell, I OD'd doing this shit. It's rare that people can feel anything, especially at the dose I take. There is no need to take a huge dose to try to 'overcome' that barrier. Suboxone is a partial agonist - it means it STILL has some depressant effects on the central nervous system. Mixing more CNS depressants is just asking for trouble. I'm just a freak who can use less than I could when I had a full habit and still feel something. Take the word of everyone around - it may be possible, but I'm just one person...

If you have any more questions, feel free to ask :)

P.S - sorry for the insanely long post - I broke it up into small paragraphs to hopefully make it a bit easier on the head and eyes.



Monday,
I'm very intrigued at your experiences with bupe and full agonists, you are probably the first person I've came across that actually had their agonist effects intesified by bupe... Given the pharmcological properties of buprenorphine, that shouldn't happen. However, everyone is different. Just like some are born genius and other born mentally handicapped. I'd love to know what it is that makes your experiences with mixing bupe and full agonists different than most. I do not doubt you, i'm just very interested. Maybe you have a super fast metabolism of bupe, maybe ... who knows.

Anyways I have a suboxone/subutex package insert here I keep in my medicine cabinet and for overdoses it states in capital letters, which i will exclude:
"in the case of overdose, the primary management should be the re-establlishment of adequate ventilation with mehcanical assistance of respiration if required. naloxone may not be effective in reversing any respiratory depression produced by buprenorphine."

...underneath that in lowercase it says:
"High doses of naloxone hydrochloride, 10-35mg/70kg may be of limited value in the management of buprenorophine overdose. Doxapram (a respiratory stimulant) also has been used."

Well, I guess we are getting off topic a bit but Duckfeet is also very very correct and I couldn't agree more about not gauging your dosages by something you read on the internet. I've seen some posts on different forums of people who claim to have consumed huge amounts of certain drugs and not felt it or whatever and to me that endangers a lot of youngsters out there surfing the net looking for some information before experimenting with a particular substance. I know that is exactlly what i did growing up... Before I ever consumed any substance, even if ti was not a controlled substance, I looked it up on the internet and read everything i could find about it before taking it. My appologies if i seem long winded... that's how i talk irl also hehe.

Dirtyrockstar
10-21-2007, 10:16 PM
oh yeah. subs go under the tongue. my bad. it just slips my mind that not everyone is a dirty needle freak. i am but again thats off topic.

mikells43
10-21-2007, 11:43 PM
heres something to toss into the mix. its an annuals about treating acute pain in bupe/methadone matenence patients. heres the link http://www.annals.org/cgi/reprint/144/2/127.pdf also i seen someone say something about bupe being unaffected by narcan, and thats the truth. i have read tons of info on bupe and talked to several doctors about it, and infact if narcan or something for overdose is needed there is going to need to be cont. iv infusions of high dose narcan, or aka iv bags full of the shit lol. cause bupes binding affinity is so strong, its like sperm in the shower, and if ur a guy u kno what sperm in the shower is like to say the least lol. sorry but thats the only thing i can compair it to lol. anyhow to get the law passed supposedly the drug company(rikett benkister(sp)), had to make the drug sorta abuse resistance, but the people doing this must have forgot or not known the power of bupe on the receptors and that tiny dose (2mg) of narcan they put in suboxone is not going to do it to make the user sick if injected, and i kno all of u heard and seen my posts of what it does if injected, but anyhow the plan backfired and that 2mg does not take the bupe off of the receptors. mabey if that person was shooting that pat. sub for the first time and has not taken bupe oraly before that, but most docs induce in office with subutex, most i say. but read that guys, pay close attn to the misconceptions, they are intresting. and have a good one.

Dirtyrockstar
10-22-2007, 11:34 AM
bupe is like sperm in the shower, totally, that shit just wont come off. thats almost poetic

damn right about the narcan too, i do IV my suboxone, i know im norty, and even on the rare occasion i have two tabs the 4mg of narcan does sweet fuck all to stop the subs. doesnt do anything really. even IF im dumb enough to still have a trace of morph in the blood (this only happened once) then it just feels tingly for 30 seconds or so while the narcan boots that out and the subs take over.

SWIM (seriously) did IV an 8mg suboxone having only had a 40mg oxy 4hours previous, the narcan threw him into instant withdrawals wretching and shivering the full nine, but after about 30mins it subsided as the bupe had now bound to the newly cleaned receptors, he had another 4mg's of sub and felt great.

spose this all goes to show just how relative each drug is to the individual

too late to quote so italics will do.
is_today_monday "No matter what medication it is, I seem to get the opposite effect to what I should be experiencing"

i get this alot too, dexies and whizz put me to sleep, codeine does not make me constipated and any form of anti-vomit medicine makes me spew.

Saint
10-22-2007, 12:22 PM
In my case 12 mgs of subuxone blocked methadone for almost 4 days. Took my last 8 mgs in the morning and first 10 mgs of methadone the next evening. I didn't feel shit the first 3 days. It was only during the afternoon of the fourth day that I started to feel the methadone kick in a little. Next day i took 15 mgs and really felt it (almost no pain, hurray!).
But it all depends on the person, lenghte of addiction, daily dose etc. etc. etc. There simply are no specific rules!!!
(I'd never guessed the blocking would take that long though, I was really very surprised!)

chopstix
10-22-2007, 01:11 PM
In my case 12 mgs of subuxone blocked methadone for almost 4 days. Took my last 8 mgs in the morning and first 10 mgs of methadone the next evening. I didn't feel shit the first 3 days. It was only during the afternoon of the fourth day that I started to feel the methadone kick in a little. Next day i took 15 mgs and really felt it (almost no pain, hurray!).
But it all depends on the person, lenghte of addiction, daily dose etc. etc. etc. There simply are no specific rules!!!
(I'd never guessed the blocking would take that long though, I was really very surprised!)

You've been taking it for awhile and I bet it had built up in your system, methadone does the same thing. Glad you're feeling better..

Saint
10-22-2007, 01:39 PM
Thanks Chopstix. I was surprised how little methadone I needed after coming off 12 mgs of subuxone. I'm sure 10 to 15 mgs of methadone would be enough to withdrawals away. For pain I still need to increase my dose a little though but I'm afraid of overdosing so I'm still extremely careful.
In my case subs absolutely lowered my tolerance so please be careful everyone when hopping from subs to the 'real' thing..

Saint
10-22-2007, 01:41 PM
And yes, both build up in your system. I still must have had 0.75 mgs of buprenorfine in my blood 150 hours after taking my last dose of 12 mgs subuxone. Maybe more because I was on a higher dose a few weeks before that.
It's my third day on methadone now (well, seventh but 3 since I can actually feel it) and although on the same dose I feel some difference (a good side-effect is that I almost stopped taking any benzo's completely: I finally get some good sleep now that I'm on methadone again)

chopstix
10-22-2007, 02:25 PM
Insomnia is what pushed me back into steady dope use, in spite of a benzo script. Nothing makes me sleep like opiates do..

mikells43
10-22-2007, 08:52 PM
and the only reason it threw him into w/ds is cause he did not have suboxone in him before that. so the key to shooting subxone successfully without causing w/d is to simply take one or a few the right way before u do it, not that i would do it, i have needle phobia.

Duckfeet
10-23-2007, 12:36 PM
I'm happy for you Saint. After a while, I too, thought your're switchover wasn't working, and you held on longer than I could have, but I know being on methadone so long has problems. I worry about the same things, and also have passport, and love to travel freely, and am hoping one of my private docs will give me methadone pills for pain, so I'll backup, as I so want to go back to Nicaragua, and also want to travel again in Europe.

In any case, like others, I appreciate so much that you honestly were willing to give us your log of experiences making the attempted switch to subs, from methadone. Didn't work for me either, and I paid a few thousand to a clinic, who eased the transition with a week of oxys, but I too am back on methadone, and, of course, my hope is to be on heroin maintenance some day, but as I get older, I fear it may not happen, and need to make the best of this...

All the best to you!




And yes, both build up in your system. I still must have had 0.75 mgs of buprenorfine in my blood 150 hours after taking my last dose of 12 mgs subuxone. Maybe more because I was on a higher dose a few weeks before that.
It's my third day on methadone now (well, seventh but 3 since I can actually feel it) and although on the same dose I feel some difference (a good side-effect is that I almost stopped taking any benzo's completely: I finally get some good sleep now that I'm on methadone again)

Dirtyrockstar
10-23-2007, 10:18 PM
i like experiements especially the ones where swim gets to use.

hypothesis: you can enjoy morphine despite the presence of subbies in your blood.

on the 21st at 6pm SWIM has 12mg of suboxone IV. no negative effects, no real euphoria once the pot wore off, some mild sedation no longer noticable the next morning.

skip ahead 48hrs. based on 37hr (maximum due to IV administration) half life max sub level in blood would approximate 4.3334 mg. this could be different tho based on some study i read that says when your body becomes accustomed to subbies the half life can drop as far as 20hrs notwithstanding individual anomalies.

the 23rd at 6pm SWIM has 120mg of morphine. SWIM nods in and out til 4am.

conclusion: of course you can.

thankyou for listening i hope you enjoyed this as much as i did.

mikells43
10-23-2007, 11:42 PM
i had 4mg of dialudid in the er 10 hours after my last sub dose and it was around 8mg . and felt nothing.... i had a kidney stone , so i really needed pain killing action. but the bupe blockaide did it . next day. got some msir pills and took 2, no releif, so went back on subutex lol. everyones diff in how ur body processes it. i dont want to get high eather so i really dont worry about that...

Frank Zito
10-24-2007, 05:23 AM
I took a half an 8mg. subbie around 1 this afternoon and TOTALLY wasted 2 4mg DILLIES later on in the evening. Banged the Dills around 9 p.m. and felt VERY little. The sad part is that I KNEW better but I boogied down anywayz. Stupid, stupid.

laudaphun
10-24-2007, 03:17 PM
i had 4mg of dialudid in the er 10 hours after my last sub dose and it was around 8mg . and felt nothing.... i had a kidney stone , so i really needed pain killing action. but the bupe blockaide did it . next day. got some msir pills and took 2, no releif, so went back on subutex lol. everyones diff in how ur body processes it. i dont want to get high eather so i really dont worry about that...

As much as suboxone has improved the quality of my life, it's things like this in the back of my head that make me wish to get off of daily dosing, or at least reduce my dose. I don't think I'll ever be able to get by without having some suboxone around.

mikells43
10-24-2007, 09:55 PM
i think of it like this, if theres something thats going to happen its going to happen. i have no control over anything but my own self. i can handle anything as long as im clear minded , and if something bad happens ill handle it when it comes by. if i really needed more releif then i would have did something else but there was not that much pain, i was just being a bitch. ill taper off someday but today i dont need too im great, and subutex has improved my life too but i can't owe it all to that,, it took alot of work by me to change too.

Dirtyrockstar
11-08-2007, 08:31 AM
gotta leave that gap depending on dosage but 48hrs is usully pretty safe, 60hrs just to be ever safer, but thats just me, please dont let swims experiene lead to the wastage of precious precious dilly's