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Inspektahdek
09-23-2007, 10:47 PM
http://www.jointogether.org/news/headlines/inthenews/2007/dea-mulls-rescheduling.html


interesting read for some of ya in the US



The U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) is considering moving the opiate painkiller hydrocodone from Schedule III to the more restrictive Schedule II in hopes of better controlling diversion and misuse of the drug, the Associated Press (http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-08-04-painkillers_N.htm) reported Aug. 4.
Hydrocodone-based drugs like Vicodin and Lortab have become the most popular opiate-based painkillers in the U.S.: 124 million prescriptions for the drugs were written in 2005, with prescriptions increasing as doctors scared off by the problems associated with oxycodone (OxyContin) switched to hydrocodone for their patients.
Some observers say the looser restrictions on the Schedule III drug -- especially regarding refills -- have made hydrocodone products ripe for abuse. Legal distribution of the drugs has risen 66 percent since 2001, but hydrocodone also has become the most common pharmaceutical submitted into evidence to forensic labs and the most likely to result in an emergency-room visit.
Hydrocodone distribution is highest in the South, including states like Tennessee, West Virginia, Kentucky, and Alabama. "When I started in this field, the primary client was involved with alcohol," said David Bailey of the West Virginia Prevention Resource Center. "I wish it were still alcohol. Not that that's not a very dangerous drug, but the addiction (to painkillers) seems to be much more intense, much more severe within a shorter period of time."
Experts note, however, that the hydrocodone problem is national, not regional. And they stress that, bad though it is, the problem of hydrocodone abuse is dwarfed by abuse of illicit opiates like heroin.

wafflehead77
09-23-2007, 10:56 PM
http://www.jointogether.org/news/headlines/inthenews/2007/dea-mulls-rescheduling.html


interesting read for some of ya in the US



The U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) is considering moving the opiate painkiller hydrocodone from Schedule III to the more restrictive Schedule II in hopes of better controlling diversion and misuse of the drug, the Associated Press (http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-08-04-painkillers_N.htm) reported Aug. 4.
Hydrocodone-based drugs like Vicodin and Lortab have become the most popular opiate-based painkillers in the U.S.: 124 million prescriptions for the drugs were written in 2005, with prescriptions increasing as doctors scared off by the problems associated with oxycodone (OxyContin) switched to hydrocodone for their patients.
Some observers say the looser restrictions on the Schedule III drug -- especially regarding refills -- have made hydrocodone products ripe for abuse. Legal distribution of the drugs has risen 66 percent since 2001, but hydrocodone also has become the most common pharmaceutical submitted into evidence to forensic labs and the most likely to result in an emergency-room visit.
Hydrocodone distribution is highest in the South, including states like Tennessee, West Virginia, Kentucky, and Alabama. "When I started in this field, the primary client was involved with alcohol," said David Bailey of the West Virginia Prevention Resource Center. "I wish it were still alcohol. Not that that's not a very dangerous drug, but the addiction (to painkillers) seems to be much more intense, much more severe within a shorter period of time."
Experts note, however, that the hydrocodone problem is national, not regional. And they stress that, bad though it is, the problem of hydrocodone abuse is dwarfed by abuse of illicit opiates like heroin.

It sucks, but it doesnt surprise me. Actually, I cant believe it has remained CIII as long as it has.

I dont think the DEA will stop until they have banned all opiod painkillrs from the US pharmacopeia. They obviously have no regard for CP patients and doctors as it is. Its a shame.

Hydrocodone was the only descent painkiller left, outside of the CII class. There will be alot of people needlessly suffering in pain if this happens due to the prescribing fears of CII's. Looks like it will be nothing but codeine and propoxyphenefor the majority of mild-moderate pain sufferers.

moviebuff927
09-23-2007, 10:58 PM
To tell you the truth, I've never gotten why hydrocodone/APAP was Schedule 3 and oxycodone/APAP was Schedule 2? They're both opiates and they both contain Tylenol. Are they trying to say that oxycodone has more of a "abuse potential" than hydrocodone? To tell you the truth, I prefer hydrocodone in terms of abuse potential!

I just don't see why this wasn't done in the first place. If they're going to put all addictive opioid painkillers in a Schedule 2 category, even if they contain APAP/Tylenol, then it stands to reason that hydrocodone/APAP combination products should have been put in Schedule 2 when they were introduced. Same thing with codeine.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but to say that hydrocodone is less addictive than oxycodone is just stupid. But then again, it's the DEA. Personally I think that if an opioid painkiller contains any amount of Tylenol then it shouldn't be Schedule 2. I think Schedule 2 should be reserved for potent single ingredient opioid painkillers. Not combination opioid painkillers.

So this doesn't surprise me, just another way the DEA wants all drugs to be abolished. Until they have a car accident and understand what it MEANS TO BE IN PAIN!!!

You know how cops have to be sprayed in the eyes with pepper spray before they can use it on someone? Well, I think DEA agents should be kicked in the balls and then have a limb broken before they can start working for the DEA. Some drugs are bad, no doubt about that. But some addictive drugs serve a very important purpose in society, and shouldn't continue to be demonized.

The day we lost our right to ingest any chemical substance we chose, everything went downhill from there.

JonnyM
09-23-2007, 11:11 PM
The day we lost our right to ingest any chemical substance we chose, everything went downhill from there.

Amen.

wafflehead77
09-23-2007, 11:34 PM
To tell you the truth, I've never gotten why hydrocodone/APAP was Schedule 3 and oxycodone/APAP was Schedule 2? They're both opiates and they both contain Tylenol. Are they trying to say that oxycodone has more of a "abuse potential" than hydrocodone? To tell you the truth, I prefer hydrocodone in terms of abuse potential!

I just don't see why this wasn't done in the first place. If they're going to put all addictive opioid painkillers in a Schedule 2 category, even if they contain APAP/Tylenol, then it stands to reason that hydrocodone/APAP combination products should have been put in Schedule 2 when they were introduced. Same thing with codeine.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but to say that hydrocodone is less addictive than oxycodone is just stupid. But then again, it's the DEA. Personally I think that if an opioid painkiller contains any amount of Tylenol then it shouldn't be Schedule 2. I think Schedule 2 should be reserved for potent single ingredient opioid painkillers. Not combination opioid painkillers.

So this doesn't surprise me, just another way the DEA wants all drugs to be abolished. Until they have a car accident and understand what it MEANS TO BE IN PAIN!!!

You know how cops have to be sprayed in the eyes with pepper spray before they can use it on someone? Well, I think DEA agents should be kicked in the balls and then have a limb broken before they can start working for the DEA. Some drugs are bad, no doubt about that. But some addictive drugs serve a very important purpose in society, and shouldn't continue to be demonized.

The day we lost our right to ingest any chemical substance we chose, everything went downhill from there.

Werent all apap/opiod combo preparations CIII until 5-10 years ago? I think perc used to be CIII, but after OC abuse became news-worthy, oxycodone was bastardized, in all of its forms

I may be wrong, but I recall a pharmacist telling me this when I picked up my first Percocet script years ago.

So, this may be why hydro and codeine products that contain apap are CIII. It is the only thing that makes sense. And I agree with about the recreation value of hydro. I get a better high from Norco/Lortab than I do from percocet. If there was a pure hydro product, I think I would prefer it to OC.

moviebuff927
09-24-2007, 12:34 AM
Werent all apap/opiod combo preparations CIII until 5-10 years ago? I think perc used to be CIII, but after OC abuse became news-worthy, oxycodone was bastardized, in all of its forms

I may be wrong, but I recall a pharmacist telling me this when I picked up my first Percocet script years ago.

Huh...that could be true, I wasn't aware of that. But it makes sense because OxyContin was really demonized when it came out and it stands to reason that all oxycodone-containing products were moved to Schedule 2 after that OxyContin bullshit.

A few years ago, some company was actually set on making a single ingredient hydrocodone product. I believe it was going to be called HydroContin, a form of time-released hydrocodone. Not sure why it didn't work out, but I've read many reports on opioids.com that hydrocodone is more addictive than most people think. And that's one of the main reasons that they don't have hydrocodone-only containing products. I would LOVE to see a hydrocodone product with nothing but hydrocodone.

Here's that article about hydrocodone being more addictive than most of the opiates: (PLEASE READ, VERY GOOD ARTICLE!!!)

http://opioids.com/hydrocodone/vicodin.html


And a very interesting quote from the above article:

"Fortunately for science, but unfortunately for the animals, Eddy was a thorough and dogged researcher, performing these experiments thousands of times. The results showed, among other things, that hydrocodone was an effective painkiller with predictable side effects. But hydrocodone also stood out from the pack in one remarkable way: It provoked such euphoria in the animals that Eddy felt compelled to warn of its abuse potential. Hydrocodone was a good cough suppressant, he wrote in 1934, but it also "induced euphoria, and therefore there was danger of addiction." It produced "excitation indistinguishable from that produced by morphine in morphine- tolerant rats."

Jocko
09-24-2007, 08:08 PM
So ... do you guys REALLY think this will go down? I mean, fuck ... that means hardly ANYONE will be prescribed vicodin - and it's SO often prescribed for breakthough pain after any typical medical (even simple) procedures. What's more, won't it allow OXY to be abused actually more? I mean, if hydro AND oxy are the exact same Schedule II, then more people will get percs/oxy for breakthrough situations in the ER, surgery, back pain, etc. I dunno ... I can't really see it happening for that reason. Does that make sense? I mean, there's a HUGE difference between a vicodin 5/500 and a morphine tab or a Fen patch. What do you blokes think?

mrnatural
09-24-2007, 08:45 PM
I don't have any documents or source material to substantiate what I'm saying, just personal experience, but percodan (with aspirin rather than tylenol) was a CII back in about 1985. Couldn't be refilled, needed a new scrip each time. I was pissed that my doctor just gave me 8 perc's in a script for back pain for a supposed kidney stone (I adulterated a urine sample by adding blood to it from what I thought was a little cut I made in my finger. I was grimacing and groaning for the doc and he looked down at my clinched fist and said "What is that?" as blood was running out of my fist and down my pants. He forced my hand open and I complained about the glass in his parking lot cutting my hand when I retrieved my keys from the ground after dropping them in his parking lot. I had no idea that I slashed my finger instead of pricking it.)

Anyway, 8 was all he gave me and I put 1 refill on the paper before I took it to Revco (before they were CVS.) The pharmacist (who knew me) said "Dr xxxx knows he can't give refills on this-I guess he just made a mistake, huh?" Fortunately he didn't pursue the matter any further.

Anyway, about the same time a friend of mine and I came up with what we thought was a relatively unknown pill for his non-existent but easily faked cough called Hycodan that was 5mg of hydrocodone and nothing else. He had ALS and his doctors were pretty decent about prescribing him most anything that wasn't too outrageous. This was a couple of years before I had heard of lortab or vicodin, maybe 1982 or so. Don't know if the pill form is still made; it's mostly in syrup form for it's antitussive qualities, but back then about the only thing you could get with refills was codeine, propoxyphene and talwin (w/o naltrexone) Everything else was CII or illegal. Hycodan was pretty neat itself; just a pure hydrocodone in instant release like roxi 15's and 30's come in now. Just dose in multiples of 5mgs.

Sorry about the length of the post-got carried away.

shaunclo
09-24-2007, 08:58 PM
This is very interesting info, I am actually not very surprised that this is going to happen. It is definitely going to fuck with the street value of vicodin. As of now the shit is amazingly cheap (somewhere around a buck a pill) I am wondering how much that price will climb.

Duckfeet
09-24-2007, 10:25 PM
It used to be Class A's and shit, underneath BNDD, then went to this new shit. About the best you could get was dilaudid, but it was always a small crew interested in opiates...you could still check yer aunt's medicine cabinet, and occasionally get percodans, and always tylenol or empirin #3's. Only hydrocodone around was in Tussendex cough syrup. But again, opiate addiction wasn't that common, particularly in the south. Often it was people came from harder places up north, New York, Michigan, or big California cities, and had used heroin in some kind of inner city connect. IV use was uncommon also. But first came methamphetimine, and people in the south got more used to IV use, then Oxycontin came out. Up until then we'd scrounge for dilaudids, but the only other opiates we'd fix with any success was percodans, and even they were pretty messy, not recommended. Oxycontin changed everything. And then began the privately owned methadone clinics, and privately owned prisons. It's a win win for these people. Make drugs that people like, pump'em into all the little cities, then make'em illegal as all hell, methadone clinics make beaucoup money, so do private prisons. So do pharmaceutical companies. Nice racket. Nobody that has any power seems to ever step back and see just how fucking inhumane and cruel the whole system is. People like me, and people I've cared about and loved: all our lives forfeit to this miserable "war on drugs." And for what? Because we like opiates. Forced to choose between crime, god or methadone...none of which I got much use for...

tptptp
09-24-2007, 10:32 PM
So ... do you guys REALLY think this will go down? I mean, fuck ... that means hardly ANYONE will be prescribed vicodin - and it's SO often prescribed for breakthough pain after any typical medical (even simple) procedures. What's more, won't it allow OXY to be abused actually more? I mean, if hydro AND oxy are the exact same Schedule II, then more people will get percs/oxy for breakthrough situations in the ER, surgery, back pain, etc. I dunno ... I can't really see it happening for that reason. Does that make sense? I mean, there's a HUGE difference between a vicodin 5/500 and a morphine tab or a Fen patch. What do you blokes think?


Huh wha....you're trying to use logic to examine America's drug policies.

chopstix
09-24-2007, 11:08 PM
So ... do you guys REALLY think this will go down? I mean, fuck ... that means hardly ANYONE will be prescribed vicodin - and it's SO often prescribed for breakthough pain after any typical medical (even simple) procedures. What's more, won't it allow OXY to be abused actually more? I mean, if hydro AND oxy are the exact same Schedule II, then more people will get percs/oxy for breakthrough situations in the ER, surgery, back pain, etc. I dunno ... I can't really see it happening for that reason. Does that make sense? I mean, there's a HUGE difference between a vicodin 5/500 and a morphine tab or a Fen patch. What do you blokes think?

I don't think it'll happen, too much money involved. I think they're just more likely to regulate CIII harder and make the ROPs a thing of the past, at least in the US.

Biggest problem with vicodin is the tylenol and peoples ignorance about it. A lot of people making a lot of money from hydro right now though. The DEA just wants regulation of the online situation. I know people going through a couple hundred Norco a month and I think that's what they want to put a cap on. Not so much the people getting 40-60 a month from one doc with a couple refills..

tonyk
09-25-2007, 12:58 AM
Damn, such a shame we live in such a country...

Hammilton
09-25-2007, 10:02 PM
I think it's worth mentioning that hydrocodone is already a C2 medication. There just aren't any (to my knowledge) preperations that fall into C2 status.

A really good drug, imho, that's CV is Diphenoxylate when combined with Atropine. If only I had a reason to ask my doc for Lomotil...

btw, the atropine is present in such low quantities that you can dose really, really high without having problems from the anticholinergic.

wafflehead77
09-25-2007, 10:30 PM
I think it's worth mentioning that hydrocodone is already a C2 medication. There just aren't any (to my knowledge) preperations that fall into C2 status.

A really good drug, imho, that's CV is Diphenoxylate when combined with Atropine. If only I had a reason to ask my doc for Lomotil...

btw, the atropine is present in such low quantities that you can dose really, really high without having problems from the anticholinergic.

True. That didnt even cross my mind. Without a preparation solely containing hydro, it is hard to remember.

EleusisII
09-26-2007, 09:48 PM
Doctors will still need to prescribe something between codeine and percocets, but the company that developed tramadol has a new painkiller in the pipeline that might fill that gap. I see something like dihydrocodeine becomming popular as well.
OTOH the big phrama lobby is powerful, and vicodin is a major moneymaker.
Junkies: Right now is a good time to contact Watson, and let them know that you support their product with your hard-earned cash, and expect them to stand up for you.

Here's an email address: info@watson.com
And a form letter, feel free to use it :)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To Watson Pharmaceuticals

It has come to my attention that the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration is considering moving the opiate painkiller hydrocodone from Schedule III to the more restrictive Schedule II in hopes of better controlling diversion and misuse of the drug.
As a habitual recreational drug-user, and longtime customer of your company, I find this development very unsettling. I sincerely hope to continue using your products, and hope that Watson Pharmaceuticals intends to put it's legal and political ressources to work, against any kind of re-scheduling of Hydrocodone-based painkillers.

Regards,

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Azrael
09-26-2007, 10:42 PM
will do little for diversion, only make legitimate patients suffer

Azrael
09-26-2007, 10:45 PM
[snip snip]

A few years ago, some company was actually set on making a single ingredient hydrocodone product. I believe it was going to be called HydroContin, a form of time-released hydrocodone. Not sure why it didn't work out, but I've read many reports on opioids.com that hydrocodone is more addictive than most people think. And that's one of the main reasons that they don't have hydrocodone-only containing products. I would LOVE to see a hydrocodone product with nothing but hydrocodone.

[respectfully snipped] '

When my mom was sick in 2003 she had 5mg hydrocodone pills. About the size of 5mg roxicodone. I snorted four or five once, and got super buzzed. ah the memories...

but definitely not the same as what you were talking about ("hydro-contin"). though I talked to a pharmacist once at a place that did compounding who said they did custom compound of extended release hydrocodone for a customer (s).

Hammilton
09-26-2007, 11:16 PM
Man, I bet I'd still be able to enjoy the hell out of a hydro I could snort, in quantities of 80 to 150mg.

mikells43
09-26-2007, 11:19 PM
old news i posted this before i think

mikells43
09-26-2007, 11:19 PM
lol and i started on vicodin es snorting it, man that was great one half of pill and bombed. now its like 10 pills when i stopped using.

gnat
10-02-2007, 10:00 AM
I've seen lots of compound hydrocodone preps with only hydrocodone, from 30-50mg I think they go up to 80. Anyways, it's always been CII alone as far as I know.

It's also very very light and fluffy and snorting it is not as fun as it sounds. You can actually inhale it, if it goes straight back and can make you cough and shit. heh

Duckfeet
10-02-2007, 02:11 PM
Yeah, part of the "deal" with hydros in this country, is that to keep the sched III designation, which is easier on docs, they had to keep enough buffer in'em, so that abusing them is uncommon, in the sense they can't be fixed, and snorting them or anything else, one needs to do CWE. Germany has the pure form. I'm like a lot of other people...I've got to be totally off dope for a while to feel hydros. I popped five this morning, since I've cut way down on methadone, and mornings are tuff for me, but of course it was a waste, felt nothing...

I miss the days when hydrocodone in this country was usually only seen in Tussendex oough syrup, and if u guzzled a few slugs of that, it was "happy happy..." But 5mg vicodins, the most common form of hydro, are useless now to me, and I laugh to think that even ten years ago, I was as happy as could be to pay five bucks a piece for them, or lortabs or lorcets of same strength...bummer, because among docs, once these came out, they pretty much backed off on perscribing percs or tylox, since they were sched II....

OhJoy
10-13-2007, 11:01 PM
Oh brother!

or should I say OH BIG Brother

pharmboy
10-13-2007, 11:36 PM
And now even the Netherlands is taking a shit on us what with
making majic mushrooms illegal. Just because a few stupid tourists
thought they could fly. People don't fly well, you should know that
even if your high on mushrooms. So three tourists do something
stupid and it's time to inconvenience millions.

Inspektahdek
10-16-2007, 12:52 AM
And now even the Netherlands is taking a shit on us what with
making majic mushrooms illegal. Just because a few stupid tourists
thought they could fly. People don't fly well, you should know that
even if your high on mushrooms. So three tourists do something
stupid and it's time to inconvenience millions.


when I go to Amsterdam, they have a shop, it's my fave shop actually, they sell everything even peyote, etc. DMT, 2cb, everything, theyve got it! And they make custom chocolate weed and chocolate shrooms, I bet this shop will secretly be selling the chocolate shrooms! You could easily easily and SWIM has done it before, smuggle alot of these chocolate bars anywhere, even on a plane. Not that I would condone or have done such a thing though.


Oh and the wrapper is very inconspicuous, says cocoa chocolate or something cocoa or dark chocolate 75% or something like that and looks like normal NORD Europe chocolate, and they have little squares so you can dose them appropriately! Kind of like Hershey bars! Almost exactly like Hershey bars! They're like $25 for each I think in US dollars or 20€