what happens after we die?

[WarmCyanide]

no matter if youre religious, spiritual both none some or whatever. i've been thinkin on this alot

my vote is we haven't got a fuckin clue until we get there. i'm curious as to your ideas/beliefs. polls aside//

where does your "soul" or "spirit" go when you die?

is there just nothing and thats it?

[I-Nod]

no matter if youre religious, spiritual both none some or whatever. i've been thinkin on this alot

my vote is we haven't got a fuckin clue until we get there. i'm curious as to your ideas/beliefs. polls aside//

where does your "soul" or "spirit" go when you die?

is there just nothing and thats it?

Good question, my friend.

I've always had more of a scientific-based opinion of death. I don't believe so much in magical worlds in other dimensions, but believe more in the power of the human brain.

So on that note, I always figured that 90%+ of all deaths ultimately end up w/ a lack of oxygen to the brain. What I mean is, if you get shot, have a heart attack, or get caught in a burning house... no matter if the bullet goes through your heart... what kills you is that the brain isn't being fed oxygen anymore, or the smoke asphyxiates you and the same demise holds true.

This leads to me believing that when you die, you experience the most euphoric moment of your entire life put together in one. The lack of oxygen and the rapid release of hormones and chemicals in the brain is the cause of this euphoric bliss. And the brain is capable of surviving for, hell, just a guess... 10 minutes? or so, in this state of ultimate-euphoria. You don't die holding your breath for 3 or 4 minutes, so I hope the "high" lasts at least 10! After that, it's a slow fade-to-black...

Yeah, I'm thinking everything goes black and due to the lack of oxygen, you no longer have any recollection of anything after that. You are thrown back into the cycle of life, as we know it. You are buried, your body feeds some plants, worms, and other little creatures... which in turn feeds larger animals, etc etc. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust... the cycle goes on.

Sorry if that's a bum-view to have, not very exciting or "eternal, blissful living" in the afterworld, but it is just my opinion. I'm glad that there is hope for an after-life in most people though, and never try to change peoples minds in this area. I think having that hope makes people try to behave better in "this" world, so anything that provokes people to be good and kind, I'm all for it.

Looking forward to reading some others views. Good thread WC! What are your thoughts on this??

[Paregoric Kid]

I know people who have died and come back and they said there is nothing. even the people that die and see stuff, I believe their visions and experiences can be explained by natural phenomenon. your brain shuts off and starts to rot, the end. I don't believe in a soul or spirit, our brains are what we are and brain matter is material so there is no reason to come up with a supernatural explanation for what happens to our consciousness after death, it is all electromagnetism and biochemistry. I think an afterlife would not be interesting or pleasant and would only devalue our time here in reality. the jews don't believe in an afterlife and according the christian bible you stay in your grave dead until the resurrection. the idea of an afterlife is sometimes used by religions and cults to get people to do very evil things by giving people false hopes of getting a better afterlife. well anyways my opinion as an atheist and a person that believes in reason, objective reality, and science, I see no reason to believe in an afterlife because I've seen no evidence to believe there is one.

[Duckfeet]

Same thing that happens when I put a tooth under my pillow, and wait on the tooth fairy...

[WarmCyanide]

Same thing that happens when I put a tooth under my pillow, and wait on the tooth fairy...
expand on that DF
I know people who have died and come back and they said there is nothing. even the people that die and see stuff, I believe their visions and experiences can be explained by natural phenomenon. your brain shuts off and starts to rot, the end. I don't believe in a soul or spirit, our brains are what we are and brain matter is material so there is no reason to come up with a supernatural explanation for what happens to our consciousness after death, it is all electromagnetism and biochemistry. I think an afterlife would not be interesting or pleasant and would only devalue our time here in reality. the jews don't believe in an afterlife and according the christian bible you stay in your grave dead until the resurrection. the idea of an afterlife is sometimes used by religions and cults to get people to do very evil things by giving people false hopes of getting a better afterlife. well anyways my opinion as an atheist and a person that believes in reason, objective reality, and science, I see no reason to believe in an afterlife because I've seen no evidence to believe there is one.

i agree with a majority of that

Good question, my friend.

I've always had more of a scientific-based opinion of death. I don't believe so much in magical worlds in other dimensions, but believe more in the power of the human brain.

So on that note, I always figured that 90%+ of all deaths ultimately end up w/ a lack of oxygen to the brain. What I mean is, if you get shot, have a heart attack, or get caught in a burning house... no matter if the bullet goes through your heart... what kills you is that the brain isn't being fed oxygen anymore, or the smoke asphyxiates you and the same demise holds true.

This leads to me believing that when you die, you experience the most euphoric moment of your entire life put together in one. The lack of oxygen and the rapid release of hormones and chemicals in the brain is the cause of this euphoric bliss. And the brain is capable of surviving for, hell, just a guess... 10 minutes? or so, in this state of ultimate-euphoria. You don't die holding your breath for 3 or 4 minutes, so I hope the "high" lasts at least 10! After that, it's a slow fade-to-black...

Yeah, I'm thinking everything goes black and due to the lack of oxygen, you no longer have any recollection of anything after that. You are thrown back into the cycle of life, as we know it. You are buried, your body feeds some plants, worms, and other little creatures... which in turn feeds larger animals, etc etc. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust... the cycle goes on.

Sorry if that's a bum-view to have, not very exciting or "eternal, blissful living" in the afterworld, but it is just my opinion. I'm glad that there is hope for an after-life in most people though, and never try to change peoples minds in this area. I think having that hope makes people try to behave better in "this" world, so anything that provokes people to be good and kind, I'm all for it.

Looking forward to reading some others views. Good thread WC! What are your thoughts on this??

being fair, i was also thinking that that there is no evidence of the magical worlds NOT existing either

my belief is that noone can claim to know, even the Near death experience supporters who see lights and people, the scientific community refutes that as the brain shutting down or a side effect of I-Nods brain/oxygen point. i guess where that leaves us is faith. i'm interested in whateveryone else thinks too. i cant type anymore so you all just lucked out for the night

[moviebuff927]

what happens after we die?

Nothing.

I've been in several accidents in which I was clinically dead. Nothing happens. That's why it was so scary. It solidified my disturbing belief that I never wanted to really know was the truth: we die, it's like we go to sleep for eternity with no dreams. Nothing happens. NO LIFE AFTER DEATH!

And that's from experience. I've been so dead that the blood has pooled on my back (hypostasis)...which only happens after you've been dead for at least 6-10 hours after death.

I hate to ruin it for everyone that believes in a higher power (and I'm not saying you shouldn't believe) but from a person who's been there, take my word for it or don't. I'm just telling you the truth, and that's the main thing I always want. Don't sugar coat something for me, give it to me straight up.

The lesson: Enjoy every single day of your life. It's very short and most people are 70 before they realize they wasted their life and would do ANYTHING to go back and do it all over again, differently

[Somanax]

We cease to be

the short and the long

of it thank what alow's us to be

[pharmboy]

I think it's like turning your computer off. Nothing . . . . .BUT

Just in case I plan on reading the Tibetan Book of the Dead before

I die. I figure if some one has the afterlife thing figured out its the

Buddists so hay why not read one little book, might get a big payoff

latter. .:confused-

[MissyAggravation]

anything that i would have said has already been said here, PK summed it up quite nicely.
any reports of seeing dead relatives, angels and glowing tunnels are most likely the results of synaptic misfires.

[JonnyMohawk]

I believe once you are dead thats it, it used to scare the shit out of me but the more I thought about it I will be dead and unable to be miserable about having died. I sincerely believe thats why so many people need to believe in god because they need the reassurance that after they die there is something else... that they will continue to feel and think as they were before they died. I actually quite sad but then again I wont be disappointed when I die.

[pharmboy]

I said befor after you die NOTHING, However I have run into a couple

of little kids like 3 - 4 year olds that seemed to know exactly who they

were " the last time they were here". They had alot of details that I just

can't see a 4 year old being able to put together just to freak some old

people out. I wonder about reincarnation.:cool:

[Chipper]

Been giving this a lot of thought; i think we go to the same place we came from.

[JonnyMohawk]

Been giving this a lot of thought; i think we go to the same place we came from.

When we die we go into our mothers vaginas? Damn thats a dreary death indeed.

[Dirtyrockstar]

hate to split hairs coz now i look stupid but it is impossible to prove something DOESN'T exist.

[JonnyMohawk]

It's rarely necessary to have to disprove something that has never been proven.

[OPticrazi]

Without going in gory details, I was wounded in 1972. The bullet entered from the rear of my right thigh and came out the front, it shattered my right femur, nicked my sciatic nerve and turned 5 inches of my femur to DUST. On the way to the med vac I bled out, well almost, but I was in a coma for a week. During that time and I can not tell you when I have vivid memories of first seeing a incredible bright light and seeing and speaking with people that I knew that were already dead. When I finally awoke in a half body cast, which I remained in for 2 years, I had this indescribable peace over me, it changed my life forever!
So for what it's worth, thats my story and I'm stickin to it (quote Bart Simpson) :D LOL

[OhJoy]

I think there may be phases of death. I think some souls are reincarnated, some may not be. I have some personal experiences that lead me to believe there is something more. When my grandmother died, she made 'herself' known in our house for a few weeks after. She probably figured she was scaring us so she stopped some of the things. Doors opening, coffee pot being turned on to make coffee in the moring, (it was not programmable) Shower turning on. Money appearing. Those incidentsf got me to thinking.

Nothing.

I've been in several accidents in which I was clinically dead. Nothing happens. That's why it was so scary. It solidified my disturbing belief that I never wanted to really know was the truth: we die, it's like we go to sleep for eternity with no dreams. Nothing happens. NO LIFE AFTER DEATH!



Maybe your soul wasn't 'pushed' to it's next host yet? You may not have been ready to be reincarnated? So hence you didn't get to see the next phase of death..perhaps.


I said befor after you die NOTHING, However I have run into a couple

of little kids like 3 - 4 year olds that seemed to know exactly who they

were " the last time they were here". They had alot of details that I just

can't see a 4 year old being able to put together just to freak some old

people out. I wonder about reincarnation.:cool:

I feel like I was reincarnated, I remember as a child having detailed memories that didn't make sense, until later in life when I understood what reincarnated meant.

[SHELLEY]

i was super athiest
then i tried to kill myself
by taking over 300 sleeping pills
well more than tried
i was dead for over 6 minutes
i remember waking up but i couldn't see it was pitch black
hearing screams
feeling like i was getting burned with fucking fire
feeling hands and claws grabbing at me
felt like i was there for years
scared the fuck shit right outta me

now, i was raised Southern Baptist
and went to Southern Baptist All-Girl's Boarding School
they preach hellfire and brimstone more than anybody
so it could have been a dream
slash
drug-induced hallucination
brought on by my childhood/teenage indoctrination
and the detailed descriptions of hell the preachers always gave us
(after all i'm only 22 years old)
that could be all that was

but i don't care what's logical
that shit scared me
what i really believe in my heart of hearts
is that i went to hell for killing myself
but i was brought back to life
i wasn't breathing and had no heartbeat for a while so that part is true

i will never fuck around with suicide again

thanks fer listening

[OPticrazi]

I hear ya Shelly, my closest friend in the world refers to himself as a "recovering catholic" for the very same stuff. And I'm glad that you seem to understand, I think and hope, that suicide is the ultimate act of selfishness!
SO keep on keepin on.............Peace Opti

[Paregoric Kid]

it is up to the people that make claims for an afterlife to show proof not the people who don't believe them, if you believe in something without proof that is faith and I think faith is bad.
but I am not saying you people that had NDEs (near death experiences) didn't have them, it is just that I believe they happened because of natural phenomenon in the brain and were not supernatural experiences. synaptic misfiring, endogenous DMT release, electromagnetic disturbances, etc, hallucinations aren't proof of an afterlife.

[OPticrazi]

it is up to the people that make claims for an afterlife to show proof not the people who don't believe them, if you believe in something without proof that is faith and I think faith is bad.
but I am not saying you people that had NDEs (near death experiences) didn't have them, it is just that I believe they happened because of natural phenomenon in the brain and were not supernatural experiences. synaptic misfiring, endogenous DMT release, electromagnetic disturbances, etc, hallucinations aren't proof of an afterlife.

I have read several books that make those same conclusions.....and honestly I think they are closer to the real deal..............But ya know brother sometimes faith is all people have.
The experience I shared did not mean to imply that I am a believer in the cosmic muffin bullshit just an experience.
As far as the change it made in my life it was more along the line of how precious life is and how quickly it can slip away!
And that none of us have any control over it! ( the dirt nap bit anyway)

[JonnyMohawk]

it is up to the people that make claims for an afterlife to show proof not the people who don't believe them, if you believe in something without proof that is faith and I think faith is bad.
but I am not saying you people that had NDEs (near death experiences) didn't have them, it is just that I believe they happened because of natural phenomenon in the brain and were not supernatural experiences. synaptic misfiring, endogenous DMT release, electromagnetic disturbances, etc, hallucinations aren't proof of an afterlife.


That was exactly my point and you summed it up very well paregoric.

[GoddessofRATs]

I haven't read this whole thread yet but this topic has always fascinated me. Most of my life I've been confused about what happens when you die. And than one day it hit me!!! I'll get to what hit me in a moment.

Sure, I'd love their to be an afterlife where there is a beautiful heaven or maybe reincarnation. Or remainning in the spirit realm and floating in between life and death.

BUT... here is what i think happens when we die. I don't think we are reincarnated, i don't think we go to a 'Heaven' what i think happens is you simply don't exist anymore. You go back to how it was before you were born- nothing. And at first this scared the shit out of me and eternity of nothing? God how awful but that's not what it will be. There will be no black out, no nothing, 'nothing' won't exist, you just don't exist anymore. That is a hard concept to explain and express. What is not existing? I have no idea. The best way i can think is it's just how it was before we were conceived but what that is, is very hard to articulate with words. It's very hard for me to explain what i mean by that.

I am an atheist for the most part, i don't believe in a god. I'd like to hope there is something out there... but what, i don't know. Sure, I'd rather not just NOT exist anymore, that seems so abyssful and void but abyss and voidness won't exist either, nothing will exist. The world will keep on going but the memory of you will only continue till the last person who remembers you dies, when every piece of evidence that you existed is gone- paperwork, pictures etc.. than that's it, no one will remember you, no one will even know you ever existed. Unless of course you are famous or something, than your the memory of you is eternal until such time the world no longer exist and all evidence of you existing is gone as well.

Arghhh, it's so hard to describe what i mean. But i tried lol.

I'd much rather have an afterlife than not existing anymore but i don't think that's how it works. That being said, i don't judge anyone who thinks differently. I'm probably wrong with my idea of what happens after death but that's my gut feeling on what does happen after we die.

Now physically what happens to us when we die, well anyone can go read up on the mechanics of that, Science is easier understood than the idea of 'Not existing.'

GOR

[JonnyMohawk]

BUT... here is what i think happens when we die. I don't think we are reincarnated, i don't think we go to a 'Heaven' what i think happens is you simply don't exist anymore. You go back to how it was before you were born- nothing. And at first this scared the shit out of me and eternity of nothing? God how awful but that's not what it will be. There will be no black out, no nothing, 'nothing' won't exist, you just don't exist anymore. That is a hard concept to explain and express. What is not existing? I have no idea. The best way i can think is it's just how it was before we were conceived but what that is, is very hard to articulate with words. It's very hard for me to explain what i mean by that.

GOR


I have a lot of respect because you face what most people don't want to... most people don't want to face that once they die thats it, nothing, no heaven, no hell (which is good in my case), no life after death.

[GoddessofRATs]

Thank you JonnyM. I was worried i'd be misunderstood. I'm glad someone understood what i meant by that.

GOR

[SurfRat]

you're dead

[NV12]

it is up to the people that make claims for an afterlife to show proof not the people who don't believe them, if you believe in something without proof that is faith and I think faith is bad.
but I am not saying you people that had NDEs (near death experiences) didn't have them, it is just that I believe they happened because of natural phenomenon in the brain and were not supernatural experiences. synaptic misfiring, endogenous DMT release, electromagnetic disturbances, etc, hallucinations aren't proof of an afterlife.
Hehe, here I go again... I can't resist. I might be the only one around here that is always against the grain, but here's my take:

I believe in faith, and I have chosen to live my life trying to make decisions based on what I believe and have faith in... (I try, failing miserably most of the time...:))
If this is what I draw personal strength from, and how I live my life, that should be okay. As long as I don't walk around pointing fingers and condemning people to hell.

The thing is though, what if nothing happens when I die? What if you guys are right and I am wrong? It's not going to matter anyway. I'll be dead anyway and if I just cease to exist, I'll never know that all this time on earth I believed in something that wasn't even real.

It's a beautiful thing... that we can all believe what we want.

I for one, think I have it right, but not because it's written somewhere or I have rock solid evidence. It's just what I think has helped me and every human deserves to live how they want, without the confines of society's version of right and wrong.

Be easy,

Wide

[GoddessofRATs]

You're right, that's the beauty of it, we are all ALLOWED to believe in what we want, to express what we believe in and we all have the right to think 'We have it right' and I'm like you, i believe I have it right, and I'm sure everyone else here believes 'they have it right.'

And you're right, if what i think is true, we don't simply exist after we die than YES, nothing we do during life matters, BUT, that does not mean what we do duringng our life matters, yes it does, because we affect other people by what we do during our life... but after we are gone... it really doesn't matter what we did during our lives, however... that makes it even more important that we live our lives the best we can, with good morals and ethics because if what i believe is true, that we don't exist anymore after we die... than the life we live is even more precious than it would be if you went on to a better place is i.e., heaven etc. Better live your life good because once your gone there isn't no fixin' it because eventually at some point we won't exist anymore.

See how beautiful that is, we both think differently.

GOR

[NV12]

You're right, that's the beauty of it, we are all ALLOWED to believe in what we want, to express what we believe in and we all have the right to think 'We have it right' and I'm like you, i believe I have it right, and I'm sure everyone else here believes 'they have it right.'

And you're right, if what i think is true, we don't simply exist after we die than YES, nothing we do during life matters, BUT, that does not mean what we do duringng our life matters, yes it does, because we affect other people by what we do during our life... but after we are gone... it really doesn't matter what we did during our lives, however... that makes it even more important that we live our lives the best we can, with good morals and ethics because if what i believe is true, that we don't exist anymore after we die... than the life we live is even more precious than it would be if you went on to a better place is i.e., heaven etc. Better live your life good because once your gone there isn't no fixin' it because eventually at some point we won't exist anymore.

See how beautiful that is, we both think differently.

GOR
Glad you agree and don't take what I say as a "holier than thou" attitude :)

And to clarify... I most definitely DO believe how I live my life matters. I *try* to live by certain standards, good morals, and a strong belief system. I DON'T, however, think that the bad things I do determine if I go to Heaven or Hell (which I believe there is). If I'm not mistaken, that is the beliefs of Catholicism. I try to study different religions because I think it's important to be knowledgable in all faiths and beliefs in order to make my own determinations on how to live.

Anyway, glad you got me!

Wide

[GoddessofRATs]

No i do agree, we should lives our lives the best we can, be good to people... good morals and standards etc etc...
I just think what happens we die is different and i do not believe in god.

Thank you for not taking what i said as sarcastic or to bash what you said. There is a mature way to talk about things ya know. And i always keep that in mind when talking about religion and politics, however, i hate talking about politics LOL. BORING. But, religion can lead to some good convo's as long as the discussion is mature, freindly and not damaging to anyone involved.

If i believe in something else, something other than the person i am speaking with, i still want to be their friend ya know. Long as nothing gets heated. Letting things get out of hand or heated is a waist of energy.

GOR

[GoddessofRATs]

Oh and just to clairfy, i do think what we do during our live matters, it matters greatly. I just think personaly it doesn't affect what happens to us after we die. I don't think bad people go to hell and good people go to heaven, i think we all end up in the same darn place- not existing.

Thanks for the good talks.

GOR

[WarmCyanide]

it is up to the people that make claims for an afterlife to show proof not the people who don't believe them, if you believe in something without proof that is faith and I think faith is bad.
but I am not saying you people that had NDEs (near death experiences) didn't have them, it is just that I believe they happened because of natural phenomenon in the brain and were not supernatural experiences. synaptic misfiring, endogenous DMT release, electromagnetic disturbances, etc, hallucinations aren't proof of an afterlife.


yeah. when people say that they were dead for a certain amount of time, that means their heart
had stopped but they were able to be resuscitated. NOONE has ever been declared BRAIN dead
and ever came back. once your BRAIN is dead, you are dead. heart and brain. thats why NDEs are
near death, not "to death and back again". just wanted to clarify.

[Paregoric Kid]

correct me if I'm wrong here but I believe there is an operation done to people who have brain aneurysms where they pump out all of your blood and chill your body and blood. they have no brainwave activity. they do surgery for like a half hour or so and then pump the blood back in warm them up and restart the heart.

[GoddessofRATs]

I've heard of that surgery to but i thought it was to operate on the heart because they need the heart to not move. But, i could be wrong, it could be for a brain surgery.

GOR

[WarmCyanide]

correct me if I'm wrong here but I believe there is an operation done to people who have brain aneurysms where they pump out all of your blood and chill your body and blood. they have no brainwave activity. they do surgery for like a half hour or so and then pump the blood back in warm them up and restart the heart.


you are correct. http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

that would make it an ADE. after death experience


i also looked up brain death vs. clinical death on wikipedia. i havent read it all yet cuz i'm too tired

but i email both articles to myself. good find PK

[Duckfeet]

I meant, that, obviously, nothing happens...and I agree with what you posted...humans just are cursed with consciousness, and Schopenhauer (or somebody) said it was an illness, not a good thing...so, first to explain things, then to give us comfort, we've invented all kinds of post-death stuff. Anybody who's ever hunted knows what happens when we die...



expand on that DF


i agree with a majority of that



being fair, i was also thinking that that there is no evidence of the magical worlds NOT existing either

my belief is that noone can claim to know, even the Near death experience supporters who see lights and people, the scientific community refutes that as the brain shutting down or a side effect of I-Nods brain/oxygen point. i guess where that leaves us is faith. i'm interested in whateveryone else thinks too. i cant type anymore so you all just lucked out for the night

[WarmCyanide]

:rolleyes:I meant, that, obviously, nothing happens...and I agree with what you posted...humans just are cursed with consciousness, and Schopenhauer (or somebody) said it was an illness, not a good thing...so, first to explain things, then to give us comfort, we've invented all kinds of post-death stuff. Anybody who's ever hunted knows what happens when we die...


glad you expanded. interesting shit, DF. youve beed struttin on this globe for a few years longer than I so i take it to heart. side effect of consciousness. i know there's a book out there called "the god part of the brain" i have yet to pick up. basic crux of it is that there is a part of the brain to deal with the issue of our own mortality.

[Duckfeet]

Yeah, I don't know. I never try to convince anyone else of what I believe...sometimes it's just too much to bear,that it's all for nothing, and I hope I'm wrong, that there's some hyper-mystical background magic to all this noise, and that pretty girls and Shakespeare and the sun that warms us, will be around forever. It's come close to driving me batty, and certainly can lead to depression if one dwells on it too much...

:rolleyes:


glad you expanded. interesting shit, DF. youve beed struttin on this globe for a few years longer than I so i take it to heart. side effect of consciousness. i know there's a book out there called "the god part of the brain" i have yet to pick up. basic crux of it is that there is a part of the brain to deal with the issue of our own mortality.

[Paregoric Kid]

yeah its called a standstill operation or hypothermic cardiac arrest where they basically kill the patient before they do brain surgery on aneurysms. there is a study somewhere where they tested people who had NDEs by having a sign that showed random things on it during surgery, none of the people who had NDEs could identify anything that played on the sign during surgery. I believe NDEs that happen to people who receive surgery that uses hypothermic cardiac arrest are experiencing the NDE either before the surgery or after they are resuscitated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standstill_operation

[freedomclub]

no matter if youre religious, spiritual both none some or whatever. i've been thinkin on this alot

my vote is we haven't got a fuckin clue until we get there. i'm curious as to your ideas/beliefs. polls aside//

where does your "soul" or "spirit" go when you die?

is there just nothing and thats it?


We have to wait and see if we are going to be conscious or not. I wrote this before reading the thread.

[pharmboy]

I am a very technological person but having said that I am not so

pompous that I wont accept that there might be something out there

that we have no idea about or no way yet of detecting it. When it comes

to technology we are only a couple hundred years old, thats not very

long in the grand sceem of things. There is alot of wierd shit out there

that we have no clue about. I would just like to see some serious research

into stuff like UFOs and other stuff that people usually roll their eyes at.

[jab]

I believe everthing (consciousness) just ends. I don't believe that we'll be aware in anyway. If you've ever had surgery you might have an idea what I mean. When you wake up from surgery you have zero recolection.. it feels as if you blinked and now it's hours later.

It's not a pretty thought, and it doesn't gel with "religion", but that's what I believe. It just ends.

So make the best of what you have now!

[Paregoric Kid]

I just remembered one of many great quotes from H.L. Mencken, "...the majority of men are unable to grasp the concept of annihiliation. They grasp readily enough the idea of being unconscious for a short time, but they are quite unable to think of being unconscious forever."
here is the full quote in context from his book Minority Report:
The fact that the pious Christian believes he will live forever is no proof that he will, though it is frequently cited as one. Even if all men believed it it would still not be true - and perhaps for that reason alone. All its persistence proves is that the majority of men are unable to grasp the concept of annihiliation. They grasp readily enough the idea of being unconscious for a short time, but they are quite unable to think of being unconscious forever.

[edhorfin]

I've been so dead that the blood has pooled on my back (hypostasis)...which only happens after you've been dead for at least 6-10 hours after death.


That's pretty fucking dead....

[Canis aureus]

To the original question: then we simply die (full stop).

[Duckfeet]

I used to like Mencken, back when I first started reading, and was plowing thru all kinds irreverant stuff. But anyway, I agree absolutely that most men don't grasp it, as I have to really work at it, and can only grasp the notion of annihilation for a few seconds at most. Most people who say they are atheists, I ask them about it, and they rarely even know what I'm talking about. Periodically, when I *do* grasp this concept, I am immediately overwhelmed with an unbelievable terror, which I think is actually a biological reaction. The absolute and total *ending* of one's personality, ego, breathing is the most terrible thing imaginable, and to function, our consciousness blots this out, or we would all hang our heads in despair.

Most people just think it's a cutesy, brave thing to be an atheist. Not me. It's tough, and depressing, but nonetheless, IMO, there is no more evidence of afterlife than there is of santa clause or fairies or any supernatural occurences. Most things that "cannot be explained" usually get explained eventually, and certainly are no proof of an afterlife, but simply that science is still evolving. But, like Bukowski said, life is pretty hard to take straight, thus religion, alcoholism, "family", drug addiction...anything to take our minds off the great and looming void...


I just remembered one of many great quotes from H.L. Mencken, "...the majority of men are unable to grasp the concept of annihiliation. They grasp readily enough the idea of being unconscious for a short time, but they are quite unable to think of being unconscious forever."
here is the full quote in context from his book Minority Report:

[Maggie38]

I think your soul lives on and goes 'somewher'. Least that's what my grandma taught me.

[Duckfeet]

I think that people who believe that way live happier lives, and are often decent to others. It's just hard for me to go from "wishful thinking" to belief. I have a lot of friends--I live in SoCal--who are members of Eastern Religions, and believe in karma, or tell me they do. But cynic that I am, I often wonder to myself whether it's really belief, or just not wanting to be "normal" and especially, since, in my neck of the woods, it's really uncool to belong to regular churches. Belief, for me, is limited in scope... but again, from a pragmatic viewpoint, Buddhists and Hindus, and others, often are kinder to other people, than some of the more orthodox and mainstream religions...and honestly, we are really short on kindness and tolerance in this world, regardless of belief. I've gone to point where I don't think belief matters. I think you can be kind without belief, without thinking it's Karma, or God's will, or any causation necessary...just be nice...

I think your soul lives on and goes 'somewher'. Least that's what my grandma taught me.

[blackdog]

the way the dawgg sees it is we is in hell now, and so it can only get better from here.
and also watch or nod with your TV on and just might hear/see something interesting
like they found hieroglyphics? (old ancient writing on the walls and shit) with pictures of airplanes and flying saucers........so you tell me? where the fuck :abduct:will we go when we leave here???????:rolleyes:

[stvip]

When I died I just kept remaining here, waiting for my body to catch up.

[WarmCyanide]

To the original question: then we simply die (full stop).

i mean after that.

I've been so dead that the blood has pooled on my back (hypostasis)...which only happens after you've been dead for at least 6-10 hours after death.


That's pretty fucking dead....

wow. i mean it. wow do you remember anything?

[bronyraur]

where does your "soul" or "spirit" go when you die?

is there just nothing and thats it?

In all honesty, I haven't a fucking clue.


I'll tell you when I get there. And hopefully that won't be for a long, long time.

[Paregoric Kid]

I love HL Mencken, he was one of the great writers/journalists of the 20th century.
make the most out of your time here on earth, have fun, you only get one life so live it up while you still can. if you really desire to live longer/forever look into cryonics and mind uploading. I have no irrational fear of death, death is nothing. as Epicurus said thousands of years ago, "Death is nothing to us, because a body that has been dispersed into elements experiences no sensations, and the absence of sensation is nothing to us." so no I don't fear death but I do have a fear of pain, and to feel pain you must be alive. there is no reason you can't be happy and have an objective view on reality, no need for fear and anxiety of annihilation.

[Hiram]

I know people who have died and come back and they said there is nothing. even the people that die and see stuff, I believe their visions and experiences can be explained by natural phenomenon. your brain shuts off and starts to rot, the end. I don't believe in a soul or spirit, our brains are what we are and brain matter is material so there is no reason to come up with a supernatural explanation for what happens to our consciousness after death, it is all electromagnetism and biochemistry. I think an afterlife would not be interesting or pleasant and would only devalue our time here in reality. the jews don't believe in an afterlife and according the christian bible you stay in your grave dead until the resurrection. the idea of an afterlife is sometimes used by religions and cults to get people to do very evil things by giving people false hopes of getting a better afterlife. well anyways my opinion as an atheist and a person that believes in reason, objective reality, and science, I see no reason to believe in an afterlife because I've seen no evidence to believe there is one.

That's not completely accurate to say that the Jews don't believe in an afterlife. There's different views or theories based on the Branch of Judaism. The concept of hell is what is removed. Instead of hell, in some forms of Judaism, the punishment for sin is detachment from God or being a farther distance from God in the afterlife. The soul is eternal and the body is not in this case.

As far as the Christian Bible......when you're in Rome, do as the Romans do. That pretty much sums up Paul's invention. That is a very fear based religion. The concept of grace and shame are an easy means to control a population. Believe in Jesus and hopefully if one is lucky enough to receive grace on top of that, then one can be resurrected by the skygod during his return. It's also easier to pay your tithe or pay off your priest during confession than to actually take responsibility. There were several apocalyptic groups with Jewish origin racing to fulfill the new messiah concept in the Middle East around 1AD.

It's absurd to see that the one cult that Rome chose to tweak with Paul and later fine tuned by the emperor Constantine and his henchmen is the one that is still in existence as far as the mass population goes. The destruction of the 2nd temple was supposed to be a sign of the apocalypse for these cults. As I look at my watch....that was what.....a few years ago, make that a few thousand years ago. All I hear is crickets chirping outside. Where is all of this fire and brimstone? Didn't Jim Jones, Korresh, Manson and pretty much every other cult after that have all of the same ingredients? All apocalyptic and fear based with a leader that is supposed to be the only divine one in communication with God in the group. The church as Rome put it together is very profitable. It was for the Romans and it still is for the Vatican and all of the thousands of branches after that. I say tax the church.

[is_today_monday]

I was clinically dead last year after an overdose. Was resuscitated and woke up in intensive care after being in a coma. I saw nothing. I was alive and then nothing and then I was alive again. I had no concept of NOT being alive though.

I am a science geek, and I don't believe in an afterlife, or anything like that. Like previously mentioned, all perceptions of tunnels and lights, etc, can be attributed to various parts of the brain dying of in order of least 'important', you know what I'm getting at?

After the suicide of my closest friend recently, I was comforted by the fact that I don't believe in anything after death. If I held the values that suicide is the mortal sin, etc... well, I don't think I could handle believing that Hamish went to the very place he was trying to escape.

It's one of those conversations that comes up time and time again in life, not just here, but who hasn't discussed this before with friends/family/etc?

Despite what we believe, we'll never know until we get there ourselves... having been there for a small while, I feel confident that there is nothing.

Eternity is a difficult concept for our minds to grasp - just like, what was there all that time BEFORE the Big Bang? My answer? It's irrelevant. Time was created in the Big Bang. 'Before' is a concept of time.

Now I'm just getting kooky, I think

(got nice and hammered today)

Anyway, if any of that made sense at all, I'm going to be proud of how articulate I can be :)

Peace Out.

[chemiKalz]

I wish there was something.

[Duckfeet]

Very honest statement, affected me more than all the lengthy posts on here...me too...and maybe I'm wrong...the way I see it, is such a sad and dreary thing...


I wish there was something.

[GoddessofRATs]

That was one of my sentiments in one of my replies.... I WISH THERE WAS SOMETHING but i don't there is anything. I think it just ends.

GOR

[matfield]

^^my feelings too..

[Duckfeet]

It's just to me a truly honest statment. I don't want to be right. To think it's all for nothing...but I just have trouble making any kind of leap of faith. Even the deal people alway say, a version of Pascal's Wager, where it's the best bet, since if you're right, u go to heaven, and if wrong, ur life is still o.k.

And even that could be bullshit. That presumes it's the *Christian* god who rules the show. Hell, what if it's the devil. and *he* runs the nice real estate, and only takes people who *don't* believe in God...and when I see all the killing, I think what a beautiful world it would be, if everybody were gone...well, except maybe me and my friends LOL...

Tough deal...sometimes guys think that if you have faith you are weak...I don't think so, I don't think most people realize what a terror atheism can be, at times...

Oh well, depressing subject...

That was one of my sentiments in one of my replies.... I WISH THERE WAS SOMETHING but i don't there is anything. I think it just ends.

GOR

[rroberts161]

[My concept of hypoxic death] leads to me believing that when you die, you experience the most euphoric moment of your entire life put together in one. The lack of oxygen and the rapid release of hormones and chemicals in the brain is the cause of this euphoric bliss. And the brain is capable of surviving for, hell, just a guess... 10 minutes? or so, in this state of ultimate-euphoria. You don't die holding your breath for 3 or 4 minutes, so I hope the "high" lasts at least 10! After that, it's a slow fade-to-black...



Astonishing! How is it that you conclude death is an experience of euphoria? I have observed a death or two in my time, and I have rarely been left with any impression of enjoyment on the part of the patient as she or he dies. If anything, the experience of natural death (not drugged death) appears to my eyes to be fraught with shattering emotional bereavement, frequently accompanied by closing words that describe an obvious dysphoria ranging from anxiety or deep unhappiness through outright terror and screeming-meemies. There seems to be very little evidence, based on my first hand experience anyway, that dying is in any fashion pleasant, much less "euphoric".

RU4REAL? Death in the absence of moderating drugs in large doses, or in comatose or fully unconscious patients, is uniformly a horror show. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either just inexperienced with death first hand, or has not been intelligent enough to break out their observed deaths into the alert and undrugged vs. the drugged or unconscious groups. Opioids and benzodiazepins are routinely used in what are sometimes called "heroic doses" to ease people through trauma. When people being medically managed die, it is a damned sight better than otherwise, but death is a horror story each time a person falls, regardless. Just because doctors have managed to medicate away much of the terror and disappointment death seems to manifest in the dying may be a tribute to medicine's attainments, but the misperception it fosters that death can be a euphoric experience is also a measure of how remote death has truely become to human beings in this age.

If anyone thinks this is nuts, that there is some great pay off of euphoria upon death, I'd ask myself a few simple questions.

First of all, how theoretical is your concept of death? How may deaths have you seen first hand, as opposed to having watched as television dramas or literary excursions? How many dead bodies have you actually merely touched? If the answer to this is not zero, then you'd next need to ask how close to the actual death were you? How may still warm dead bodies have you touched?

Don't write and tell me about the piles or corpses you have been intimate with, please. It does not matter to me. My point is that I just believe it is hard to think about death. Part of this is because death is inherent terror to most humans, but part of it is that we have become so good as a species at sanitizing death that few outside of the military or medical professions actually have any first hand experience with death anymore. Very few people actually see death anymore. A person who has seen more than one or two deaths in a life is to some extent unusual. And by this I mean, been within a few feet of the patient at the time of death, not the common experience of having lost somebody in your life.

As far as the original question of the post though, what happens after death? I wish I knew. I suspect that we are no more than software running on wetware, but nobody really knows and claims to the contrary strike me as lies or wishful thinking.

Yet while the other side of death may be as unknowable as the physics of a black hole, the trip to that other side is highly consistent and easily characterized. Descriptive words come to mind like "horror", "terror", "angst", "despair", "agony" etc. But "euphoria"? Euphoria? Well, perhaps. If, like in all the rest of life, the drugs are good enough. But if the deal is shitty, and the dope is bad, the experience is unlikely to be much fun.

BTW, this all really sucks. Life should be more consistent with my sense of fair play, I tell myself. Death should really be abolished, and trust me, we are working on it. In the mean while, we have gotten so good at guiding souls to hell with medicine that the trip can be made almost as comfortable as a First Class seat on Virgin Airlines.

My advice? Try to get loaded enough that you sleep through the entire stormy flight, even though you know as you hand in your boarding pass that you are boarding a flight whose destination is a crash site where you will never be found, never seen or heard from again.

rroberts161

[Paregoric Kid]

I would say it depends on how you die that determines if it would be painful on any level. some people in the military see people get killed many times and for example a head shot would not be painful because the bullet travels faster than our nerves can transmit signals. ie shooting up and blowing your head off would probably not be painful and some drug overdoses would cause unconsciousness before actual death and would probably not actually be painful regardless of how it looks. though I'm sure diseases like cancer and AIDS are certainly painful. but that is dying not death.

[StillChippin]

what happens after we die? Seriously is this a question. a more reasonable answer to your real question is NO. and a more reasonable question is, "Is shooting up allowed in heaven if it exists?". NO!

and then you say " Why's it called heaven then!?"



IMHO which is an agnostic one, is that our asses die and that's it. Who the fuck are we to think that for some reason we are the only creatures on this planet with souls that mysteriously and quite transparantly float from our recently deceased body to some pearly gated existance..where of course you cant even shoot dope cause there's prolly fucking rules against it. FUCK THAT SHIT i'd rather stick my dick in peanut butter. Seacrest out

[rroberts161]

I would say it depends on how you die that determines if it would be painful on any level. some people in the military see people get killed many times and for example a head shot would not be painful because the bullet travels faster than our nerves can transmit signals. ie shooting up and blowing your head off would probably not be painful and some drug overdoses would cause unconsciousness before actual death and would probably not actually be painful regardless of how it looks. though I'm sure diseases like cancer and AIDS are certainly painful. but that is dying not death.


Well reasoned. Of course it is impossible to guess what happens, if anything, on a cognitive level at the very instant of death, and sudden death free of anticipation of that death seems to me probably to be unknown and unknowable for those of us alive today. I am not sure that immortality is beyond reach for at least some humans in the not too distant future. We are really moving with incredible speed at coming to understand very subtle processes within the human body, especially the brain. Coupled with our already very sophisticated and evolving "supercruncher" modelling trends, it is not impossible that we will be able to create a model of the human mind that passes the Turning Test in some not too distant future. Once this happens, assuming those who hold functionalist/mechanist leanings are right, some very curious things may become possible...things like modeling an *individual's* human brain with such fidelity that the concept of death will be closer to an error like using imprudent backup routines rather than truely ceasing to exist.

Of course, even if we reach a point of being able to create artificial minds, or create links between real brains through high speed paths, do memory and even machine-state backups of the human brain, we may never be able to demonstrate a "proof" that sentience duplicated or modeled is actually the same "person" at the moment of duplication. We may never be able to know the true nature of the basic metaphysical triad of problems; epistomology, ontology and cosmology. It is certain to me that our present manner of considering the problem of understanding existance, i.e. by asking the three questions (Epistomology: what is the true nature of knowledge? Ontology: what is the true nature of being? and Cosmology: what is the true nature of the universe.), appears insoluble since each field of metaphysical inquiry essentially becomes circularly referential.

This is to say, understanding the nature of knowing seems to me to demand an understanding of the nature of being. How can it be elsewise? How can we frame a question asking about the nature of knowledge until we understand to a large degree what it means to be sentient, i.e. able to grasp ontology? And unless we understand the truth about knowledge, every field of human inquiry is doomed to narrow vistas and fuzzy theories. Each branch of metaphysics begs the question of the other two.

And the hell of it seems to me to be that no matter what terms you use to form the questions, the tools themselves are all interdependent heisenbugs. Look at ontology through medicine, or drop down to physics, it matters not one bit. Couch the same mysteries in religious cant, and you end up with excursions like Qabbalah and fundamentalism. Turn again and look at the same problem through particle physics, and it does not matter because the closer truth seems here, the smaller the number of minds able to encompass the LARGER TRUTH. We are gathering information at a rate that is daunting, on millions of fronts simultaneously. Yet what does this avail us when we can't yet fix, in our fractured and intricate human catalogs and systems, even a vague map of what information or even subjective experience itself is? Even at the root of experience, we remain profound mysteries to ourselves. How can we even begin to understand death, without yet even really having a clue what it means to be alive?

I suspect that a true grasp of the nature of our nature, a full theoretical grasp this is to say, shall always elude us. On the other hand, as a basic functionalist at heart (as opposed to, say, a "True Believer" in any understanding(s) we have reached to date as a species), I am profoundly optimistic that we will be able to build tools able to "think" differently enough from us that our tools will be able to work empirically to arrive at predicative modeling of phenomonon that while useful and perhaps indistinguishable from what we currently call "observed reality" will never be *provable* as exactly equivalent. This is the nature of empiricism.

For most, this will never be enough. If we ever hope to really understand death, we would be well served by crossing paths with aliens we agree are sentient and who we are able to communicate with. I personally doubt this will ever happen, meeting aliens. But hell, what do I know?

To be completely candid, I'd have to respond to this last question, "what do I know?" with a very gentle yet firm statement: "I guess I don't know what I know. Or at least, I am pretty certain that I have no idea what it means to say I "know" any thing at all.

rroberts161

[Paregoric Kid]

computers that will be smarter than us are coming and will be around in 15-25 years, I expect. with future technologies which are already being developed, like advanced nanotechnology, cryonic suspension, suspended animation, mind uploading, simulated reality, or similar concepts will all be reality in some form someday. theoretically such technologies do not break natural laws so there is no reason these technologies can't exist, it is just we haven't developed them yet. That is not dead which can eternal lie.
And with strange aeons even death may die. -HP Lovecraft
though this article is interesting on what the end of the universe may be like http://www.exitmundi.nl/bigexpansion.htm , I think that if humanity or its next evolved form makes it that far they will probably be able to manipulate the universe in a way to give them as much time as they wanted and thereby practically ending the concept of death. whether people become cyborgs or continue on as software doesn't make much difference if such technology would give us advanced abilities we could not have otherwise (ie help us survive when we otherwise could not continue as we do now). I don't think ontology is necessary, only metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, and politics.

[WarmCyanide]

computers that will be smarter than us are coming and will be around in 15-25 years, I expect.

shit, PK theyre already here. calculators are a great example.:)

this reminds me of the discussion dave had with HAL 9000 about the fallibility(sp?) of computers.

remember that one/"
?

[Duckfeet]

I was listening today to some NPR program about plastic in the middle of the ocean, and how seabirds--and fish, and mammals--were eating them, and taking them to their babies, with horrilble results...Also, for some reason I've always followed the history of the different countries of Africa with interest...and I myself think that mankind is close to at least partial self-destruction. Too many of us, weapons too widespread, representative government loosing ground to hyper-religiosity. Even tho it's hard to shake, I don't think that cultural progress is a given. I think that we presume that, but that we could very well be heading backwards, into Dark Ages or maybe even total destruction.

I think we made terrible presumption that all peoples are ready for freedom and democracy, and most are not, are better off as colonies, or under dictators. Plenty of examples around the world of what "freedom" has wrought, and again, everything I read, tells me that once weapons are designed, they'll eventually be used. Past is not necesarily prologue to future, but it's all we have to go by. To me it doesn't look good.

I just finished "The Road" by Cormac McCarthy, and it's grim reading, but I recommend it. Maybe if the earth survives, and another apelike creature comes along some day, they'll do a better job, but I think we owe it to the animals to give'em a break, and disappear for a few thousand years or so.

[kyuss]

Not very much.
(I hope)

[OxyContinuously]

I think that the body is material and can be destroyed (ie. after we die the body decays, etc.) but I also think that consciousness and intention are eternal.

So when we die, I believe our bodies are dead, but our consciousness and our intention still exists, somehow somewhere...maybe the body's physical limitations of needing food, water, etc. are what prevents us from living like that right now, you know? In other words, to what extremes could we go to if we didnt have our bodies to worry about??

The possibilities of thought are limitless
Consciousness is intangible but certainly exists
Intention cannot be seen but drives everything we ever do

So what would we be just as these intangibles without a body to ground us to Earth?

just some thoughts, and yes I have tripped extensively on acid shrooms, k, dpt, and a myriad of other chems but they are not what led me to this belief---they simply re affirmed it to me.

later

Oxy

[WarmCyanide]

I think that the body is material and can be destroyed (ie. after we die the body decays, etc.) but I also think that consciousness and intention are eternal.

So when we die, I believe our bodies are dead, but our consciousness and our intention still exists, somehow somewhere...maybe the body's physical limitations of needing food, water, etc. are what prevents us from living like that right now, you know? In other words, to what extremes could we go to if we didnt have our bodies to worry about??

The possibilities of thought are limitless
Consciousness is intangible but certainly exists
Intention cannot be seen but drives everything we ever do

So what would we be just as these intangibles without a body to ground us to Earth?

just some thoughts, and yes I have tripped extensively on acid shrooms, k, dpt, and a myriad of other chems but they are not what led me to this belief---they simply re affirmed it to me.

later

Oxy


Oxy you touched on something about the afterlife i was thinking about in relation to the law of Conservation of energy

ENERGY CANNOT BE CREATED NOR DESTROYED, IT CAN ONLY CHANGE FORM.

i was looking more into it online and someone already asked this on yahoo answers.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070605161818AACwgB1&show=7

i also remember reading about doctors weighing the body before and after death to see if the soul has a weight.

they even took under account, fluid loss from loss of bladder and bowel control. i forget what the results were.

theyre out there on the WWW but my spaghetti is ready

[GoddessofRATs]

I remember hearing about the body weighing less after someone dies. I forget how much it is though.

As for energy.. i wonder what happens to the energy in our body when we die, does it just become part of the closest thing that uses energy. Does the energy inside of us combine with our concsious and we just float around?

It's all very fascinating but at the same time it terrifies me.

GOT

[WarmCyanide]

I remember hearing about the body weighing less after someone dies. I forget how much it is though.

As for energy.. i wonder what happens to the energy in our body when we die, does it just become part of the closest thing that uses energy. Does the energy inside of us combine with our concsious and we just float around?

It's all very fascinating but at the same time it terrifies me.

GOT

yeah GOR. the physicl being is worm food/fertilizer/returned to the earth.

consciousness and the soul. what happens to that. what happens to the person you call "you"

in some ways i miss my acid days.

[slugbone]

yeah GOR. the physicl being is worm food/fertilizer/returned to the earth.

consciousness and the soul. what happens to that. what happens to the person you call "you"

in some ways i miss my acid days.


reminds me of the days i'd get stoned with my buddy and discuss all this crazy shit.

there is nothing like the sharing of drugs to bring human beings closer. those bonds are strong, and the moments and memories last.

anyway, the buddists think of conciousness as eternal, and can't be created or destroyed, beginningless and endless. so the conciousness goes on as the body dies.

[Duckfeet]

Yes, a lot of more eastern thinkers try to get around the finite aspect of death by--more or less--saying we don't end, just change, since we are energy.

Two problems with this: 1) the universe is winding down...eventually, even "energy" will dissipate.
2) Thats not the part of me I care about...it's my brain, ego, self-knowledge...it's not much comfort if "I'm" not there to appeciate it

And, since one more time I gotta bring in thermodynamics, here's the butcherized version of our real fate:

We can't win.
We can't break even.
We can't get out of the game...

Consciousness is a disease...

[Paregoric Kid]

duckfeet is exactly right. check out this stuff on energy near the end of an expanding universe: http://www.exitmundi.nl/bigexpansion.htm
I don't believe in souls and I don't believe the experiments Dr. Macdougall did 100 years ago prove anything. no one has replicated his findings. not to mention his methods were questionable (I doubt the accuracy of his methodology, scales, and measurements). even if someone could replicate his experiment and find weight loss after death how does that prove souls exist? perhaps it could just be the last bit of oxygen leaving the lungs or maybe some other natural cause. somewhere there is an article that debunks the weight loss after death thing but I found this so far, Dr. Duncan Macdougall (http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp) did try to weigh the soul by putting a dying person on a scale and observing any changes in weight. He got one case where there was a change of 3/4 of an ounce (21 grams). He claimed to have replicated the event five times, but nobody else has ever replicated the experiment. Even if they did, how could anyone be sure that the difference in weight was due to the soul leaving the body? They can't and this fact demonstrates one of the major philosophical problems with soul science. The researchers have no idea whether the soul exists or what it is like or how it works. For most scientists, such obstacles are fatal to research. How can you devise an experiment around so much uncertainty? You arbitrarily remove the uncertainty by declaring something is true even though you have no idea if it is true, such as, a body will lose weight at death if there is a soul. That's your hypothesis. So, if you find evidence of loss of weight, you declare you've found evidence for the existence of the soul. Or, you claim that if some machine responds in a particular way while in a room far from another room where somebody is claiming to do astral projection, then you have proof of astral projection. But you have no idea what is supposedly going on in this alleged astral projection. You have no way of knowing what, if any, effect a projected spirit will have on anything in the universe. Yet, this is your hypothesis and if things work out, then your hypothesis is confirmed. This is called begging the question (http://www.skepdic.com/begging.html). It's a logical fallacy; you can look it up.

[underide]

Two problems with this: 1) the universe is winding down...eventually, even "energy" will dissipate.


Actually a lot of the physicists are now more inclined to believe in a theory of 'multiverse' i.e - the existence of an infinite number of parallel universe and dimensions alongside ours, in which case the energy is interchangeable and thus will never truly 'dissipate'

[OxyContinuously]

yeah GOR. the physicl being is worm food/fertilizer/returned to the earth.

consciousness and the soul. what happens to that. what happens to the person you call "you"

in some ways i miss my acid days.


21 grams. Some believe that the body loses exactly 21 grams of weight when one dies. And WC you're right, energy cannot be destroyed, so then, where does it go??

Now that's the million dollar question..

[I-Nod]

Sorry for my clutter, I had to reply...

Astonishing! How is it that you conclude death is an experience of euphoria?

Lets keep in mind that nobody can truly know what happens, because if you DO know... you're fucking dead, so you have no way to express your experiences to the living. :D

My theory is that the human body, with it's heightened concept of self-awareness, prepares us for death w/ a reserve of endorphins and other natural chemicals specifically for that moment. Just my opinion, and I am NOT talking about a persons actual feelings and situation BEFORE death... I'm saying after these numbing agents and natural chemicals release... it's all good from there.

I have observed a death or two in my time, and I have rarely been left with any impression of enjoyment on the part of the patient as she or he dies. If anything, the experience of natural death (not drugged death) appears to my eyes to be fraught with shattering emotional bereavement, frequently accompanied by closing words that describe an obvious dysphoria ranging from anxiety or deep unhappiness through outright terror and screeming-meemies. There seems to be very little evidence, based on my first hand experience anyway, that dying is in any fashion pleasant, much less "euphoric".

Again, I wasn't referring to the anguish and pain experienced before death... but rather the actual last moments of conscience thinking before your brain actually shuts down. I just like to believe that the natural releases overcome any grievances or pain... much like a shot of heroin would do to somebody. You tend to forget all your woes after such a dose.

RU4REAL? Yes.

Also, I would think that an overdose of any opiate would be quite uncomfortable... until the hypothetical release of the "this is it... I'm checking out" reserves.

Again, I think you are particularly talking about peoples last days on earth, where I was describing my opinion of peoples last minutes. I imagine you've seen a lot of awful things, and have probably helped a lot of people out... but I cannot believe that you've actually talked to somebody who is dead. So please take my opinions for what they are, an uneducated guess, because NOBODY has the answers and if they do, who the hell are they going to tell? I'm not here to debate this, it's redundant actually. But you specifically addressed me, so I thought it necessary to clarify myself. Good day to you, sir... I SAID GOOD DAY!! :D (<<< that's from a show I had watched, can't help to hear the characters voice in my head when this phrase is uttered...)

[GoddessofRATs]

Where does the energy go, yup that's the main question i think. Doesn't our bodies hold enough energy to light a light bulb? I think i read that somewhere.

And yea it's 21 grams. Not sure what that 21 grams is but it's interesting. 21 Grams isn't much at all, it's like the weight of one of my pinky rats just born lol. Actually i think they way about 40 grams. The sole is pretty small than i guess.

Interesting stuff. This has always fascinated me.

GOR

[WarmCyanide]

remember that part in the movie Animal House, when the teacher is getting a student stoned for the first time and says to the effect that there is a tiny little universe of molecules and submolecular particles in the dirt underneath his fingernail. then to trip the kid out he says.
i'm paraphrasing: we could be the tiny universe in someone elses fingernail.

its very hard to discuss "unknowns" but then again, this thread has some very interesting comments and thoughts. most i'm sure, are accurate.

[robotears]

I have no opinion but something interesting I heard from Joe Rogan was that while your sleeping AND right before you die, your brain pumps out a shit load of DMT! Imaging hallucinating like never before right before you pass into the afterlife. Sounds pretty Tits to me. Theres that law in physics that energy can't be created or destroyed, only altered in altered in form. So where does the energy from your body go? Makes me wonder>

[tonyk]

I don't have time to go into this too deeply but, How can you think complicated, detailed systems exist in this world without a master plan behind them? I am speaking of , for instance, the human body, for an example. How can you possibly think that such minute detailed involved system could just happen? Just evolve eventually from a 2 celled organism? into such a complex being?? I don't see how. When you look at a fancy pocket watch, admire its delicate intricate workings... you know without a doubt that there was a "maker" that designed it. It is far too detailed to have just "happened", right? You belive in a "watchmaker" without having to see him(or her). Same with God for me. I see his work and I know he exists. I need no other proof. I realize I am the minority here, and I am not trying to convert anyone,,,I just would like you all to see my views and... respect them. Maybe even think about them a bit. :) Tonyk

[Paregoric Kid]

energy does not equal consciousness
and we've all heard the watchmaker argument, it is a terrible argument for god. read The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins if you want that idea shattered. watches don't vary all that much, watches don't have sex. natural selection over millions and millions of years though can account for the complex adaptations of organisms. if you want to see this in action download the weasel program written by Dawkins, it is a computer simulation that demonstrates the relative power of cumulative selection in natural and artificial evolutionary systems. another interesting applet is called the blind watchmaker, "The Blind Watchmaker applet is easy to use and demonstrates very effectively how random mutation followed by non-random selection can lead to interesting, complex forms."
http://www.phy.syr.edu/courses/mirror/biomorph/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_program
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blind_Watchmaker

[Inspektahdek]

in my coma for a week all I witnessed was complete darkness

[Duckfeet]

If we've been good, we sit on a cloud with our Sunday School teacher, listening to harp music...forever...while the guys in hell are drinking beer and chasing tattooed girls around. There: now I've finally told u'all what's in store for you, I don't want to ever hear any more shit about it! ;-)

[nick]

After death one decays.

Oh and multiverses might exsist,but this universe is contracting.

[tonyk]

Too bad for all of you. I still believe.

[tonyk]

energy does not equal consciousness
and we've all heard the watchmaker argument, it is a terrible argument for god. read The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins if you want that idea shattered. watches don't vary all that much, watches don't have sex. natural selection over millions and millions of years though can account for the complex adaptations of organisms. if you want to see this in action download the weasel program written by Dawkins, it is a computer simulation that demonstrates the relative power of cumulative selection in natural and artificial evolutionary systems. another interesting applet is called the blind watchmaker, "The Blind Watchmaker applet is easy to use and demonstrates very effectively how random mutation followed by non-random selection can lead to interesting, complex forms."
http://www.phy.syr.edu/courses/mirror/biomorph/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_program
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blind_Watchmaker

Sorry for you and your emptiness.

[GoddessofRATs]

This thread is still alive and kicking? It's funny how this thread just pops up out of the blue like once a week than vanishes and pops again. I've noticed that happening with a few threads now and than.

GOR

[WarmCyanide]

Sorry for you and your emptiness.


as this being my thread, i do not wish for anyone to judge others beliefs. i respect yours, please respect others in here. just an exchange of ideas of afterlife with out calling people 'empty'

[surdali124]

I guarantee if you do what aldous huxley did theyll be an afterlife..at least for a little while(100mcgLSD IM injection right before death then they gave him another one with his approval of course....i cant even begin to begin to imagine this experience

[WarmCyanide]

I guarantee if you do what aldous huxley did theyll be an afterlife..at least for a little while(100mcgLSD IM injection right before death then they gave him another one with his approval of course....i cant even begin to begin to imagine this experience

tim leary always said lsd 25 was the "key" to the universe. hmmm. i think i'll just do the opiate thing as i lay dying. i told my family, don't let me suffer. and if i cant punch my own ticket quick enough, do it for me. snow me.:D

[limitless_euphoria]

"The worms crawl in the worms crawl out; the worms play pinochle on your snout."

Fight Club (Brad Pitt): Tyler Durden: "Listen to me . . . you have to consider the possibility that God does not like you. He never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you."

A-fucking-men.

[blackdog]

believe it or not? you pay taxes, well at least your estate will. if and when its settled and thats if you have any asssets like home and properties cd/s funds toys like cars and boats,guns. yeah buddie ya cant take it with you so why let them get it, spend it all now!!:p

[WarmCyanide]

believe it or not? you pay taxes, well at least your estate will. if and when its settled and thats if you have any asssets like home and properties cd/s funds toys like cars and boats,guns. yeah buddie ya cant take it with you so why let them get it, spend it all now!!:p


thats our fuckin dog!:D

how do you think i got my grandfather's carbine? ptltltltl

[tonyk]

Laugh it up, boys. The devil is nipping at your heels.

[Duckfeet]

The devil would be fine with me: he always sounds like fun...but he doesn't exist either, and there's no more likelihood of him being at my heels that there is of an afterlife of virgins and dates, or clouds and harps, or reincarnation or Santa Clause coming in with reindeer...

It's the sort of half-believing Christians that feel fear-based self-righteousness when they promote their dogma that I hope never catch up with me...I know that Christians that are true believers are usually kind people who have quiet compassion for atheists like me...but people who aren't so sure of their beliefs often feel better bashing people they think might be right...I know it's too frightening for words, but the nice thing is that atheists don't feel compelled to convert or to kill...our beliefs are solid...

Laugh it up, boys. The devil is nipping at your heels.

[Ragdoll]

Don't have a clue as to what *really* happens after we die, but I will say in total honesty that I have had "visits" from my (many) relatives & friends who have died. I don't even think about it too much, or go into it with other people; I just know what I've experienced and there was no doubt about it. No clear answers, though, about what's going on. Basically, I figure it'll all work out in the end.

[WarmCyanide]

Laugh it up, boys. The devil is nipping at your heels.


the freedom to swing your arms around ends where the other persons nose begins.

[GoddessofRATs]

Boy this thread is gonna live forever lol.

How about a new question added to this; What about Ghosts and Spirits. Do any of you believe in them? Or have any of you seen a ghost or been visited by a Ghost or Spirit.

I haven't really decided if i believe or not. I am fascinated with it though and that's not because i believe but because i am searching for answers. I watch all those ghost clips on Youtube, although... most of them are fake and i watch various ghost cams on line.... just hoping to find the answer to my question; do ghost exist?

So what about you all, what's your thought on this and your experiences if any?

GOR

[Paregoric Kid]

I've gone to so many places that were supposedly haunted and never saw anything. that doesn't mean some of the places weren't creepy in the right situation. I don't believe in the supernatural at all though. that doesn't mean it isn't an interesting and entertaining topic. I think infrasound, hysteria, hallucinations/psychiatric problems, and things like electromagnetics (look up the persinger helmet) can explain a lot of supernatural experiences. my point on that subject: entertaining, interesting, but bullshit.

[JonnyMohawk]

"The worms crawl in the worms crawl out; the worms play pinochle on your snout."



The Accused? =]

[reddragon3668]

I tend to believe there is an afterlife... reincarnation, heaven, I dunno... its comforting to me to think that there is more, but I try to live my life as if this is all I get, if that make sense. In a past life, I was a minister and visited the deathbeds of a many dying person. Many avowed atheist/agnostics changed their tune before the end.... and while I am in no way saying that its necessary, the ones I seen, it gave them some sort of comfort in the end.

I've been reading a book lately by William James.. here's a quote from his 1901 Gifford Lectures on Natural Religion entitled the Varities of Religious Experience (Endinburgh). Incidentially, this is a great read for religious or non-religious alike.

"He believes in No-God, and he worships him," said a colleague of mine of a student who was manifesting a fine atheistic ardor; and the more fervent opponents of Christian doctrine have often shown a temper which, psychologically considered, is indistinguishable from religious zeal."

James goes on to quote Ernest Renan: "There are many chances that the world may be nothing but a fairy pantomime of which no God has care. We must therefore arrange ourselves so that on neither hypothesis we shall be completely wrong. We must listen to the superior voices, but in such a way that if the second hypothesis were true we should not have been too completely duped. If in effect the world be not a serious thing, its the dogmatic people who will be the shallow ones, and the worldly minded who the theologians now call frivolous will be those who are really wise.

"In utrumque paratus, then. Be ready for anything--that perhaps is wisdom. Give ourselves up, according to the hour, to confidence, to skepticism, to optimism, to irony, and we may be sure that at certain moments, at least we shall be with truth...."

[OxyContinuously]

Laugh it up, boys. The devil is nipping at your heels.

was that a joke or are you really that much of a bible thumper?

[Black_Pony]

I for one agree, nothingness awaits us after death.

Just to get some theology straight (I went to cathoic school/church alot in my youth), christians believe that the ressurection has already taken place 2000 years ago. And now the gates of heaven are open for all 'true believers' and 'repentant sinners.' Before that day 2000 years ago, it was just worms and rotting flesh.

I tend to agree that the idea of an afterlife is the 'carrot' that religion hangs in front of humanity's face to get them to conform to their desired behavior.

Sorry if my opinions offend anyone.

I know people who have died and come back and they said there is nothing. even the people that die and see stuff, I believe their visions and experiences can be explained by natural phenomenon. your brain shuts off and starts to rot, the end. I don't believe in a soul or spirit, our brains are what we are and brain matter is material so there is no reason to come up with a supernatural explanation for what happens to our consciousness after death, it is all electromagnetism and biochemistry. I think an afterlife would not be interesting or pleasant and would only devalue our time here in reality. the jews don't believe in an afterlife and according the christian bible you stay in your grave dead until the resurrection. the idea of an afterlife is sometimes used by religions and cults to get people to do very evil things by giving people false hopes of getting a better afterlife. well anyways my opinion as an atheist and a person that believes in reason, objective reality, and science, I see no reason to believe in an afterlife because I've seen no evidence to believe there is one.

[freedomclub]

was that a joke or are you really that much of a bible thumper?


I was presuming (makes a "Prez" outta you and me) the latter.

[reddragon3668]

Belief in the "afterlife" is not exclusive to christianity. For instance, the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Polynesians, Aztecs, etc, all believed in an afterlife of sorts. Most included elaborate test/rituals that were not very pleasant, at least in their ideas of transition.

Most belief in the afterlife involved some sort of retribution. The Jews adopted this idea probably through their captivity in Babylon... Zarathustra (6h B.C.E) and Zorasticism... all shaped the later christian idea of hell. Consequntly, I think the idea of hell was used more as a threat to keep the masses in line rather than heaven being a carrot, so to speak. Its the original "monkey on the shoulder," so to speak.

How many times have you met someone high or drunk spouting off how they knew what they were doing was wrong and they were going to go to hell if they don't stop... I can think of a million more reasons to stop than some mythical place that may or may not exist.


I for one agree, nothingness awaits us after death.

Just to get some theology straight (I went to cathoic school/church alot in my youth), christians believe that the ressurection has already taken place 2000 years ago. And now the gates of heaven are open for all 'true believers' and 'repentant sinners.' Before that day 2000 years ago, it was just worms and rotting flesh.

I tend to agree that the idea of an afterlife is the 'carrot' that religion hangs in front of humanity's face to get them to conform to their desired behavior.

Sorry if my opinions offend anyone.

[Black_Pony]

I can really appreciate that last sentence!

Naw I was just talking about christianity to the extent that I misunderstood PKs post and was trying to straighten things out in my head.

Not every religion has a hell. But I'm pretty sure every single one attampts to explain what happens after death. And the vast majority use that concept to influence people's behavior.

Aztec sacrifices. The human imagination is pretty wicked (ie sifull, damnable, hell-bound; to use religious terms). :)

Belief in the "afterlife" is not exclusive to christianity. For instance, the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Polynesians, Aztecs, etc, all believed in an afterlife of sorts. Most included elaborate test/rituals that were not very pleasant, at least in their ideas of transition.

Most belief in the afterlife involved some sort of retribution. The Jews adopted this idea probably through their captivity in Babylon... Zarathustra (6h B.C.E) and Zorasticism... all shaped the later christian idea of hell. Consequntly, I think the idea of hell was used more as a threat to keep the masses in line rather than heaven being a carrot, so to speak. Its the original "monkey on the shoulder," so to speak.

How many times have you met someone high or drunk spouting off how they knew what they were doing was wrong and they were going to go to hell if they don't stop... I can think of a million more reasons to stop than some mythical place that may or may not exist.

[reddragon3668]

Sorry for all that jargon; I should have read your post less presumptuously. Religion is sort of a passion of mine. I'm not a good practitioner of anything. I was raised in a very strict narrow minded Pentecostal home. But Marcus Borg has made religion accessible to me again, and having something to believe in is a comfort to me.

I can really appreciate that last sentence!

Naw I was just talking about christianity to the extent that I misunderstood PKs post and was trying to straighten things out in my head.

Not every religion has a hell. But I'm pretty sure every single one attampts to explain what happens after death. And the vast majority use that concept to influence people's behavior.

Aztec sacrifices. The human imagination is pretty wicked (ie sifull, damnable, hell-bound; to use religious terms). :)

[Duckfeet]

I think "causation" itself is a human construct...in other words: we just gotta be nice to our fellows. We don't have to have a "cause", like hell, or showing we are the elect that are predetermined to be "saved," etc...just treat people right. And on deathbed conversions, there are just as many examples of people who don't. It's just that atheists don't care all that much: we just want to comfort people who are dying, not prove any point. But David Hume, philosopher and atheist, notable did *not* change his tune, while dying, even tho apparently there were friends around waiting to document it.

Neither did my dad, who, for all his faults, did stay true to his guns, and--knowing his meddlesome relatives--put it in his will to be cremated, and not to do any religious services, as is my wish...

As I've said before: I'm in AA, go daily, say the prayers, listen to religious and quasi-religious notions and stories every day. It doesn't bother me: I'm not threatened by it. It gives people comfort. Friends of mine that are of faith, they don't bug me, they're good people. And neither me, nor them, feel the need to kill or incarcerate people who don't see the world the way we do.

I sometimes make stupid and cruel remarks on here, since I think our country's founding fathers were often people with a strong sense of "sin." and this has affected the drug prohibition in this country, and that has caused me much legal and personal harm...but all men struggle with the idea that it might "all be for nothing," and once the sun burns out, it'll all be gone... and that's terrifying, at 3 in the morning, so I understand...

[reddragon3668]

I appreciate your logic, and your tolerance . The postmodern world we live in seems to be reviving the idea of something beyond that which can be "proven" empirically. Thankfully, however, diversity is appreciated and having a different opinion doesn't get you burned at the stake... well, the religious right might try, but they also get caught doing meth and having homosexual affairs, right?

I also agree that "death-bed" conversions don't prove anything, in terms of the existence of a deity or whatever. I think it does, however, show the irreducible propensity of man, shown from the earliest evidence of civilization, that man has always believed in, or wanted to believe that there was/is something more than the material world we live in. Obviously, there are exceptions, as you've pointed out.

Modernism stifled this for a time, but its really been an irreducible element of human evolution, whether we consider it archaic or not.

In the end, and once again, I have to agree with you Duck, that human kindness--how we treat our fellow man and such is the ultimate and best creed.

I think "causation" itself is a human construct...in other words: we just gotta be nice to our fellows. We don't have to have a "cause", like hell, or showing we are the elect that are predetermined to be "saved," etc...just treat people right. And on deathbed conversions, there are just as many examples of people who don't. It's just that atheists don't care all that much: we just want to comfort people who are dying, not prove any point. But David Hume, philosopher and atheist, notable did *not* change his tune, while dying, even tho apparently there were friends around waiting to document it.

Neither did my dad, who, for all his faults, did stay true to his guns, and--knowing his meddlesome relatives--put it in his will to be cremated, and not to do any religious services, as is my wish...

As I've said before: I'm in AA, go daily, say the prayers, listen to religious and quasi-religious notions and stories every day. It doesn't bother me: I'm not threatened by it. It gives people comfort. Friends of mine that are of faith, they don't bug me, they're good people. And neither me, nor them, feel the need to kill or incarcerate people who don't see the world the way we do.

I sometimes make stupid and cruel remarks on here, since I think our country's founding fathers were often people with a strong sense of "sin." and this has affected the drug prohibition in this country, and that has caused me much legal and personal harm...but all men struggle with the idea that it might "all be for nothing," and once the sun burns out, it'll all be gone... and that's terrifying, at 3 in the morning, so I understand...

[LorTabitha]

The church I go to (even 4 years ago I NEVER would have believed those 5 words would come out of my mouth, EVER!) doesn't address anything but the here and now. Ways to improve yourself and the world around you. Ways to be happy and make others happy. There's not much mention of god, but lots about the people and how they are in control of their lives. I am helped so much by this that I actually make it a point to attend church regularly. (Of course it's very laid back, shorts and tank tops are the norm and offerings are not required or talked about much, unless the roof is leaking or something.) I can't believe I found a church that works so well for me.

[reddragon3668]

I am glad you've found someplace that makes you happy! Personally, I've found the Unitarians to be great. The Episcopal church USA (not the one's recently defecting or aligning with African bishops) to be very great churches where one can get the benefit of "church" without all the judgment or dogma. The United Church of Christ is another good one, as well.


The church I go to (even 4 years ago I NEVER would have believed those 5 words would come out of my mouth, EVER!) doesn't address anything but the here and now. Ways to improve yourself and the world around you. Ways to be happy and make others happy. There's not much mention of god, but lots about the people and how they are in control of their lives. I am helped so much by this that I actually make it a point to attend church regularly. (Of course it's very laid back, shorts and tank tops are the norm and offerings are not required or talked about much, unless the roof is leaking or something.) I can't believe I found a church that works so well for me.

[LorTabitha]

I am glad you've found someplace that makes you happy!

Yeah, it still startles me to see "church" and "happy" in the same proximity!! (Bad experiences while growing up - no abuse, but lots of unanswered spiritual questions.)

[Black_Pony]

I hear ya bro. I dont need a a cause and effect afterlife mentality to have a sense of morality either. I also agree that religion helps alot of people live moral lives and can be a good influence on society. Its only when man preys on people's religious convictions to twist them into doing shit detrimental to society (jihad, cult suicide, etc) that the problem arises.

I think "causation" itself is a human construct...in other words: we just gotta be nice to our fellows. We don't have to have a "cause", like hell, or showing we are the elect that are predetermined to be "saved," etc...just treat people right. And on deathbed conversions, there are just as many examples of people who don't. It's just that atheists don't care all that much: we just want to comfort people who are dying, not prove any point. But David Hume, philosopher and atheist, notable did *not* change his tune, while dying, even tho apparently there were friends around waiting to document it.
Neither did my dad, who, for all his faults, did stay true to his guns, and--knowing his meddlesome relatives--put it in his will to be cremated, and not to do any religious services, as is my wish...
As I've said before: I'm in AA, go daily, say the prayers, listen to religious and quasi-religious notions and stories every day. It doesn't bother me: I'm not threatened by it. It gives people comfort. Friends of mine that are of faith, they don't bug me, they're good people. And neither me, nor them, feel the need to kill or incarcerate people who don't see the world the way we do.
I sometimes make stupid and cruel remarks on here, since I think our country's founding fathers were often people with a strong sense of "sin." and this has affected the drug prohibition in this country, and that has caused me much legal and personal harm...but all men struggle with the idea that it might "all be for nothing," and once the sun burns out, it'll all be gone... and that's terrifying, at 3 in the morning, so I understand...

[reddragon3668]

Will Durant, speaking of Socrates in his book entitled The Story of Philosophy, made a comment that's very applicate here:

"He had his own religious faith: he believed in one God, and hoped in his modest way that death would not quite destroy him; but he knew that a lasting moral code could not be based upon so uncertain theology. If one could build a system of morality absolutely independent of religious doctrine, as valid for the atheist as for the pietist, then theologies might come and go without loosening the moral cement that makes of wilful [sic] individuals the peaceful citizens of a community." (pg 7)



I hear ya bro. I dont need a a cause and effect afterlife mentality to have a sense of morality either. I also agree that religion helps alot of people live moral lives and can be a good influence on society. Its only when man preys on people's religious convictions to twist them into doing shit detrimental to society (jihad, cult suicide, etc) that the problem arises.

[Indy]

Kinda funny how this thread is in the "experience" section. Like anyone has any experience about it, lol.

I believe if there's a hell, there's a heaven.
....And there is most CERTAINLY, a hell.

[bronyraur]

Kinda funny how this thread is in the "experience" section. Like anyone has any experience about it, lol.

Yeah, it's a bit strange. But I think I actually moved the thread here. I can't remember.

[Black_Pony]

I like that. It sounds like hes writing about me. Does socrates go on to shoot a shitload of dope and then nod out and burn himself with a cigarette in the next chapter? If so, that means we have alot in common.

Will Durant, speaking of Socrates in his book entitled The Story of Philosophy, made a comment that's very applicate here:

"He had his own religious faith: he believed in one God, and hoped in his modest way that death would not quite destroy him; but he knew that a lasting moral code could not be based upon so uncertain theology. If one could build a system of morality absolutely independent of religious doctrine, as valid for the atheist as for the pietist, then theologies might come and go without loosening the moral cement that makes of wilful [sic] individuals the peaceful citizens of a community." (pg 7)

[reddragon3668]

LOL... no, but he does end up drinking the "hemlock" and passing out! ;)