taking vicodin while on sub?

[opiobsessed]

I'm currently on 24mg suboxone daily, been on it since March of this year, now I recently met a new cool person to hang out with and supposedly I might have an offering of 120 or so 10/500 watsons(vicodin). Gosh I miss those days, anyway, what I want to know, how can I enjoy the full buzz off the vicodin when and if I get em? I already relapsed once or twice etc so far this year, stopped my subs for 24 hours and then couldn't tolerate the bupe wd anymore and then started carefully on the vicodin again. With 24 hours off the suboxone, I would take one 10/500 watson and wait an hour to make sure everything was running good. If so I would take my normal 6 vicodin all at once an hour later and feel ok but nothing near what I used to feel before I went into rehab and went on the subs. I hear that one has to bear with 3 days of no suboxone before switching to a full agonist(vicodin or H etc). The problem is, I seem to be highly sensitive to wd's and just can't seem to run dry more than 24 hours off suboxone before going on the vicodin. Any suggestions what I can do so I dont waste vicodin pills, taking them while I'm waiting for the suboxone to break completely off the receptors so the vicodin can barge on in fully? by the way I had an interesting but scary receptor battle happen back early this year the first time I ever relapsed while on the suboxone. I was still being dose adjusted by my sub doc back then and was up to 2 8mg subs a day when I scored 100 vicodin through a doctor in another town who didn't know I was on the subs even. The first night I waited 24 hours with no sub, the wd's were getting me sick and my emotions were getting scary, very sad feelings, sweating etc the works. Finally I took my first vicodin, suddenly 10 mins later I suddenly felt that "oh shit I'm cooked" feeling as sudden acute withdrawal set in. I was scared to death since it was my first time back on the hydro while on the subs. I thought I was going to have to tell my family what I had done and I would have to go to the emergency room and I would get kicked out of the house for sure and be shoved into a halfway house. I was just scared bad, I hid in the basement and cried, started shaking and feeling faint. Fearing the hospital more than my life, I took a chance and rode it out. Finally about an hour later, I started feeling better. Relieved that nobody came down and found me, I grabbed 3 more vicodin and took them, making it 4 in an hour I had taken. Thank god, suddenly 20 mins later I suddenly got a rush of euphoria almost like the first time I ever took vicodin. That was strange but thought I would share my scary but fun in the end sub to vicodin relapse story. Sorry for the long story, I like to share my opiate stories with other people like me.

[paperrabbit]

I'm not quite sure what you are asking here, but if you are on sub maintenance it might be better to not take the hydro at all, especially after that experience you had (that really sucks, by the way). But what is your bupe dosage? I think that has alot to do with it and frequency of use. I don't use bupe very often and find that when I use even 1mg, for up to 36 hours I cannot fully feel a full agonist. I would have thought that if you were starting to wd already, maybe bupe works through your system faster so maybe it would be shorter - but if 24 hours is the longest you can make it and you get acute wd symptoms, I wouldn't risk it unless you think it is worth it.
way to go on your good fortune, though ;)

[GMorris]

...The problem is, I seem to be highly sensitive to wd's and ...

That just killed me! I seriously doubt that anyone is "highly sensitive to wd's" unless they have some other kind of medical condition that is or causes one of the normal symptoms like high blood pressure, or they are very old and the body just cannot take it, etc. Fact of the matter is, for the majority of folks withdrawal from opiates/opiods is a very painful and often scary experience, it doesn't matter who you are. I've heard the saying that it's a lot like the flu. Yeah, the symptoms themselves mimic the flu in some ways, but if I had a choice between withdrawal for 5 days or a really bad flu for 2 weeks, I'd opt for the flu anyday. At least then you CAN get medicine to help with the misery. When in opiate withdrawal, the only thing that REALLY helps is a dose of an opiate (or something similar). Some people claim that Clonidine helps, but since withdrawal causes high blood pressure it's really only treating one of the symptoms.

All in all, withdrawal is a horrible experience, I don't care who you are. Claiming to be highly sensitive just means that you either haven't experienced full-blown w/d before or that you have never been around others withdrawing. So far, I haven't met anyone who would claim that opie w/d is a cake walk.

[opiobsessed]

Sorry I wasn't real direct and to the point, the main question and what I"m trying to figure out here is how long should I go without the subs before going on a full agonist and get the full effects? current dose is 3, 8mg pills a day and that has been a steady dose for 5 months straight so far except for the two times I relapsed and then went back to the subs after running out of vico. One main thing I forgot to mention that might be important is that I had my whole colon taken out(large intestine)back in the 1990's and the doctor said everything goes through me quicker because my digestive system is shortened. I was also told that nothing will work for me that has a time release mechanisim so if I ever scored oxycontin I would have no choice but to crush them up since my system would not absorb much. Heck I just got to thinking, I wonder if that's why my suboxone or vicodin is not as long acting or as effective as normal people because my colon was removed. That's the surgery that got me started on opiates in the first place(wow I miss that button I was pushing all day long to get that wonderful morphine all day for a week)

[finch]

This is all my opinion based on experience and lots or research. Antoher good site to look at if you are trying to get clean with Subs and or a maintanace dose to get free on a short tem.......there is a site for opium recovery.I think the URL is www.heroin-detox.com, or just yahoo the words "Bupe Hotel" and it will take you to the forums. The best is the thread "bupe Hotel". There are alot of hooror stories as well as success ones. The biggest problem is that sub doctors are relatively new at this and are way over perscribing their patients on Sub. Its the general opinion of those that have done it, that 24 mg a day would be WAY too high a does and only lead you to bad withdrawels from the sub later on. Most use hte concept that "less is more" contrary to our brains reflex to think more is better, this theory is actually true in my and many other's experiences. Even those on a big H WD, do fine starting out on about 8mg of sub a day tops. You can actually feel totally normal, function fine and feel NO WD on 2-3 mg a day of subs. I level out at about 1 1/2 -2 mg a day and do great. So nex ttime you go in to the sub treatment, try to get yourself as quick as possible down to at least 4 mg a day if you can. REad the posts at that site and you will see many that support this idea and really none that don't. The half life or sub is Looooong so at 24 mg a day, you would still have some of the Naltrxone (sp?) in your system that would throw you into that. At 2 mg a day and feeling fine, I've done OC the very same day (like a weak idiot) and there were no WD and I felt the drug as well. Not a good thing though as my goal is getting clean.

Good luck
Finchy

[duke_nemmerle]

Hey thanks finch if I can EVER manage to get on bupe I'll keep that in mind for sure

[Evolbeaver]

That just killed me! I seriously doubt that anyone is "highly sensitive to wd's" unless they have some other kind of medical condition that is or causes one of the normal symptoms like high blood pressure, or they are very old and the body just cannot take it, etc. Fact of the matter is, for the majority of folks withdrawal from opiates/opiods is a very painful and often scary experience, it doesn't matter who you are. I've heard the saying that it's a lot like the flu. Yeah, the symptoms themselves mimic the flu in some ways, but if I had a choice between withdrawal for 5 days or a really bad flu for 2 weeks, I'd opt for the flu anyday. At least then you CAN get medicine to help with the misery. When in opiate withdrawal, the only thing that REALLY helps is a dose of an opiate (or something similar). Some people claim that Clonidine helps, but since withdrawal causes high blood pressure it's really only treating one of the symptoms.

All in all, withdrawal is a horrible experience, I don't care who you are. Claiming to be highly sensitive just means that you either haven't experienced full-blown w/d before or that you have never been around others withdrawing. So far, I haven't met anyone who would claim that opie w/d is a cake walk.


Yeah, i could not agree with this more. I think everyone is highly sensitive to WD's, its not something that you can just "not think about" (i hate when people say that to me) and handle. WD's suck. If you have experienced full on WD's I think that you take on how you feel at only 24 hrs would change. I dont wish withdrawling on anyone.

[hovadagod]

I don't understand why taking an agonist while on bupe would send someone into WD's. Is that normal? Wouldn't the agonist simply have no effect?

[paperrabbit]

^yes, it's the other way around that will cause problems (agonist BEFORE bupe)

[opiobsessed]

Wow, so I just took my usual 8mg dose just an hour ago when I woke up, does that mean that if I now took a 10/500 vicodin that I would get buzzed more because the bupe and naloxone still in me would potentiate the vicodin? I'm very tempted to try it but afraid because the last time I took a vicodin 18 hours after my last sub dose I went into scary wd for an hour and then it went away and I get more buzzed then ever. Is my body chemistry strange or is that normal? I gotta get busy learning stuff here, I'm probably missing out on some nice buzzes. I guess I'm just so afraid to try anything new because I've been through so many horribly scary wd before.

[shaunclo]

I dunno Opio, I wouldnt risk it. I have gone into w/d's before when I took 1/2 a mg of sub, then 10 mg's of methadone 6 hours later. Sub is some crazy shit, I dont htink anybody realy knows everything about it.

[opiobsessed]

Thats for sure, sub is sure a heck of a tricky drug, I notice that too especially the way it works with me. The first time I ever relapsed on it I went into horrible wd and then now if I wait 18 to 24 hours without it and then take vicodin again, the vicodin works great the first few hours or maybe the day and now I get no wd's. Then I noticed now that I'm taking 3 8mg subs a day, whenever I relapse now I get no wd's but its strange, now I start getting deathly sick to my stomach after the first day off sub and back on vicodin, I have to take tagamet or something to keep from puking alot. That strange scenario lasts a few days while off sub and on vicodin. Not sure if its the sub fighting the vico or just that I start taking 6 vicodin at once during the day and end up taking 30 vicodins a day with no cwe either. I'm going to have to do something different for sure next time I get buzzed off vico again. Anyone else notice the sick to stomach effect if you go off sub and back to another opiate? I almost ruined my summer family vacation this year when I went off sub and had a bunch of vicodin, the first day I downed my usual 6 pills at once and felt blasted for a few hours, then that evening we went to a family members house to pack up and leave next day and as I started eating supper I had this sick stomach feeling just like when I take too much opiates in a day even without sub. Then I had to run to the bathroom and luckily nobody heard me puke my brains out, however I could hardly eat that night and everyone wondered what was up. I almost got caught that night. Strange thing is, I quit taking the vicodin that night and next morning I still felt just sickly and hours into the trip we stopped at a restaurant and eat breakfast and I actually held it ok. We went out on the road again and I took the big scary chance at resuming my sub again and I was amazed I didn't wd or get sick, I actually started feeling normal again. very strange isn't it?

[lukilu]

Yea Opio , I think your right ! I have been on Sub for awhile now and I decided to take a holiday from Bup and yesterday started back on Oxy and Codeine and got a nice buzz for a couple hours and now am starting to get sick to my stomach and sucky feeling after I ate ! I wonder if the opiates overide the Bup for awhile and you feel good but slowly the Bup is hiding in the Fat or some such shit and slowly releasing back into the blood stream and then hits the receptors and you go into Wds real quick . Wonder if the food might trigger the release of the Bup from the fat cells . Just thinkin out loud here !
Lulilu

[opiobsessed]

That may very well be possible, I also just got to thinking that the longer I'm on sub, the more it gets stored away in the system. Early this year back when I relapsed the very 1st time it had only been a few months since I was on sub and I was up to only 4mg a day I think and I was taking one pill when I get up and one after supper I remember. Then when I took that vicodin and the wd set in, I had this feeling like the two opiates were fighting each other so hard, then when the vicodin won out I not only got a good buzz but it lasted and I didn't have that sick feeling yet. However since my dupe doc found out when I relapsed and put me on such a high dose now and I've been on that since back in summer, now when I relapse I get that sick feeling for a few days and it kind of sucks because a bunch of vicodin coming my way is not quite as exciting as it used to be. The only thing that sucks about our lovely buddy is that we have to be in wd for a while before switching, I guess thats why my sub doc didn't cut me off the program when I relapsed early this year, however I was scared that day when I went to see him, I was so afraid I would be wd'ing for who knows how long and man was I scared that day with no vicodin left and needing a new sub script. To top it off I knew I would not be finding any more vicodin for a long time and sure wasn't about to risk going into the city to score some H. I just wish there was some way to quickly and easily clean out the receptors so I could gobble up some vicodin and start to feel real good again. By the way do all of you notice how with any opiate(except iving it)that you swallow or take under the tongue that it always usually takes almost exactly 20 minutes for it to kick in? no more but sometimes maybe a little less. I also notice that sub seems to work a little better if I take otc tagamet once or twice a day.