Switching from OxyContin to Methadone

[2HI2C]

My doc wants to switch me over to Methadone from OC and I'm just wondering what to expect. (and to be honest, I'm a little confused...).

I've read that people can use Methadone to get high, but I thought it didn't affect people like that...and that's why he wants to switch me. I take OC for severe degenerative disc disease of the cervical spine (chronic pain after failed back surgery!). I LOVE shooting OC and he found out...man, why wives can't keep a good secret I'll never know! :mad:

There's all these warnings on the Net about mixing other opiates with done and the potential for killing yourself, but someone posted in a different thread that if he waits 24hrs after his last dose of done, he can shoot an 80 and get high still. Now, I'd LOVE to be able to do that, but from all the crap I've been reading, it freaks me out.

Is there NO BENEFIT to me for switching over????? I should also say, I HATE pain, so if it really does work as well as they say, THAT aspect will be a VERY welcome one...but I love OC because I can have my cake and eat it too.

So, for those of you who have been/are on Methadone, how do you get around the gatekeeper?

[Duckfeet]

I'd have mixed feelings. Methadone is a good pain killer, IMO, and it's good for getting off other drugs--I"m on 100mg daily for just that reason--but it also has that blocking thing, so u sure gotta wait at least 24 hrs to feel other drugs.

I think that is what makes it dangerous, btw, that people think it isn't working since it takes a while to come on, and start putting in lots of other drugs on top of it, and then when they do kick in, it can be uh-oh...

And it's an opiate. I feel it...just don't get a rush, if u know what I mean. It comes on slowly about an hour after I take it. But of course that is the liquid that I get at the clinic. It does get rid of pain, but I find pain come back about 6-8 hrs later, so a lot of people that take it for pain mix it up better, or get takehome split dose, but yer taking if fer pain anyway, so u must be getting the little white pills anyway, so someone else will have to chime in on that....

The reason for the mixed feelings is that yer doc is basically right. Fixing them is a waste, and they do work good for getting rid of pain, IMO...but it kind of stops the party. most guys I knew that did got methadone from docs, drank, and liked that combo...


My doc wants to switch me over to Methadone from OC and I'm just wondering what to expect. (and to be honest, I'm a little confused...).

I've read that people can use Methadone to get high, but I thought it didn't affect people like that...and that's why he wants to switch me. I take OC for severe degenerative disc disease of the cervical spine (chronic pain after failed back surgery!). I LOVE shooting OC and he found out...man, why wives can't keep a good secret I'll never know! :mad:

There's all these warnings on the Net about mixing other opiates with done and the potential for killing yourself, but someone posted in a different thread that if he waits 24hrs after his last dose of done, he can shoot an 80 and get high still. Now, I'd LOVE to be able to do that, but from all the crap I've been reading, it freaks me out.

Is there NO BENEFIT to me for switching over????? I should also say, I HATE pain, so if it really does work as well as they say, THAT aspect will be a VERY welcome one...but I love OC because I can have my cake and eat it too.

So, for those of you who have been/are on Methadone, how do you get around the gatekeeper?

[Curio]

Your doc found out you were slamming your Rx'd meds?!!

You are very lucky your doc didn't drop you as a patient!

I recently got a "dear John" certified letter from my PCP, no warnings ahead of time to allow me to understand what he was requiring of me, etc. Just BAM, dropped like a rock because he felt like I was refilling my BTP meds too quickly....even though I took them as directed per the label and the pharmacy filled ahead of schedule, plus they forgot to add "only refill every 30 days" so I didn't remember that was the stipulation on the newest script. I had 15 days to find another doc and when I went back in to this guy he only gave me 10 days worth of meds! The only reason I went back in is because I figured he would refill one last time if I got in there before the 15 days was up. Had no idea he'd only give me less than 1/3 and of course my co-pay is exactly the same price whether or not it's a full month script or 10 days!

I almost wish I'd had a contract because there was obviously some signals he was sending that I wasn't getting or something; or he's just like all the others in that they'll find ANY excuse to stop writing for CII/CIII meds.

New doctor tomorrow, crossing fingers as I am out of meds except tramadol and soma ATM.

[Paregoric Kid]

you can get really high on methadone if you use it right and you can also mix meds with it up to a certain point. to me methadone is synthetic morphine that lasts a lot longer (they are equipotent when IV'd, except for the half life differences). it is pretty pointless to IV methadone because it has such a good oral bioavailability whereas morphine has a horrible oral bioavailability. when you get up to about 80-100mg then you might start to experience the blocking effect from receptor saturation (ie the methadone fills up all your receptors). there are two solutions to this if you want to mix methadone with other stuff: 1) lower your methadone dose to 75mg or less or 2) use a stronger drug on top of your methadone dose, one with a higher binding affinity than methadone, like fentanyl for example, these will break through.

[2HI2C]

you can get really high on methadone if you use it right and you can also mix meds with it up to a certain point. to me methadone is synthetic morphine that lasts a lot longer (they are equipotent when IV'd, except for the half life differences). it is pretty pointless to IV methadone because it has such a good oral bioavailability whereas morphine has a horrible oral bioavailability. when you get up to about 80-100mg then you might start to experience the blocking effect from receptor saturation (ie the methadone fills up all your receptors). there are two solutions to this if you want to mix methadone with other stuff: 1) lower your methadone dose to 75mg or less or 2) use a stronger drug on top of your methadone dose, one with a higher binding affinity than methadone, like fentanyl for example, these will break through.

So, what's the right way to use it to get really high? I have no idea when he will be switching me over, or what the dose will be. I would think within the next week or two. We just had the conversation last week, and he was pretty set on it. I just want to be ready to do all I can to make the experience as enjoyable as possible, and yet be SAFE! Again, if it's a good pain killer then I'm really happy, but I like the pleasure of OC as well, and if there's a way to experience that on done, then I'd like to learn that...

THANKS!

Oh...and, yes he found out I was shoot my OC and still kept me as a patient. He is an increadible doctor and knows that I don't use recreationally. I just HATE to feel as shitty as I do 24/7. Learning how to shoot was a way for me to get instant gratification. I just don't want to live in pain. Instead of giving me a month's script, he dropped me down to coming in every week. That way I need to make them last and can't get refills until the week's up...

[Paregoric Kid]

I just explained part of it above. you need to use the right dose or mix it with the right stuff. saying you can't get high on methadone is like saying you can't get high on morphine. it has an image of being "better" to give to addicts but I think it's only because it is cheap and has a long half life. there is a lot of misinformation about methadone. I'm not suggesting methadone gives you a buzz like heroin or dilaudid but if you enjoy more than just a rush methadone will satisfy the same as morphine. I even prefer methadone over oxycodone mg for mg. everyone has different tastes though, but I'm just saying it is possible to get high on methadone. of course the longer you are on it the bigger your tolerance gets the less fun you'll have, but isn't everything like that?
I think you'll find it more than adequate for pain control, I know many people including myself that use it for chronic pain. methadone is primarily an mu agonist but the d-isomer also works on the NMDA receptors as an antagonist (like ketamine, dxm, pcp, etc.) so the racemic version of methadone works to kill pain through 2 different mechanisms. it may also slow the development of tolerance (check out the study done at cornell called d-Methadone Blocks Morphine Tolerance and N-Methyl-D-Aspartate-Induced Hyperalgesia).

[tptptp]

Mixing methadone with other drugs is also a good way to OD. So many people OD taking stuff on methadone. Often they dpon't realize how fucked up they are on the 'done. Be very very careful

[OCfenatiq]

Methadone can definitely help for pain and can as well get you high. Not the same as OCs for sure though... The main reason most talk about the dangers of mixing methadone with other opioits is because of the blocking agents you mentioned. Since it blocks others then most people take even more so they can feel the high coming on with the other opies...

I take methadone at the clinic as well and since the full dose is administered in the morning then most of the goodness does seam to wear off after about 6-8 hours like mentioned before, but it still lasts longer than that, it just doesn't seem like it sometimes. I used to try and take doses of other stuff in the evening but you really have to take more to get much, but if you get the right dose of methadaone it should be good enough for your pain I think, espcially because of the looong half life.

Since you will be getting it for pain you should just get a script I think, therefore you should be able to spread your dose through out the day and keep the edge better than at a clinic and getting all at once.

If you do mix with others just keep in mind that just because you can't feel the high doesn't mean its not in your body, so don't go over your normal dose too much if you want to keep things the safest...

[Paregoric Kid]

I think receptor saturation is an overblown concept sometimes, people hear the word BLOCKING and think of the action of something like buprenorphine, remember methadone is a FULL mu agonist, not a partial antagonist, you don't have to take a ridiculous amount of something else to break through like you would if you were trying to breakthrough an antagonist or partial agonist/antagonist. and as I said, if you are experiencing receptor saturation taking an opioid with a higher binding affinity will easily break through. if you are on 40-65mg (or anything less for that matter) I wouldn't even worry about the "blocking effect" people are talking about. and even up to 80mg I've not had problems, for me I don't notice any real blocking or dulling effect until around 100mg, but everyone is unique so your experience may be different. remember the longer you are dependent, the higher your tolerance goes, the more opiate receptors your brain creates, thus a higher dose of methadone is required to reach receptor saturation.

be very careful I didn't state that in my other posts, it is an easy way to overdose, especially for people who have little to no tolerance. if you already have a decent tolerance to opioids/opiates it isn't as big of a deal but something you still want to be careful about.

to speed up the onset take on an empty stomach and if you want try potentiators like tagamet for example.

I think a lot of people find methadone to be less pleasurable is because if they are on maintenance they already have a tolerance and sometimes they aren't giving you a high enough of a dose to really enjoy it. if you gave an opioid/opiate naive person methadone they would be completely fucked up, I know I sure was when I first tried it. in fact some of the doses given to maintenance patients and chronic pain patients would likely kill a non-tolerant person but to someone with tolerance and experience and is on it every morning of their life they aren't going to be as satisfied. years down the road it is never as good as it first was, but it can still be pretty damn good.

[2HI2C]

I think receptor saturation is an overblown concept sometimes, people hear the word BLOCKING and think of the action of something like buprenorphine, remember methadone is a FULL mu agonist, not a partial antagonist, you don't have to take a ridiculous amount of something else to break through like you would if you were trying to breakthrough an antagonist or partial agonist/antagonist. and as I said, if you are experiencing receptor saturation taking an opioid with a higher binding affinity will easily break through. if you are on 40-65mg (or anything less for that matter) I wouldn't even worry about the "blocking effect" people are talking about. and even up to 80mg I've not had problems, for me I don't notice any real blocking or dulling effect until around 100mg, but everyone is unique so your experience may be different. remember the longer you are dependent, the higher your tolerance goes, the more opiate receptors your brain creates, thus a higher dose of methadone is required to reach receptor saturation.

be very careful I didn't state that in my other posts, it is an easy way to overdose, especially for people who have little to no tolerance. if you already have a decent tolerance to opioids/opiates it isn't as big of a deal but something you still want to be careful about.

to speed up the onset take on an empty stomach and if you want try potentiators like tagamet for example.

I think a lot of people find methadone to be less pleasurable is because if they are on maintenance they already have a tolerance and sometimes they aren't giving you a high enough of a dose to really enjoy it. if you gave an opioid/opiate naive person methadone they would be completely fucked up, I know I sure was when I first tried it. in fact some of the doses given to maintenance patients and chronic pain patients would likely kill a non-tolerant person but to someone with tolerance and experience and is on it every morning of their life they aren't going to be as satisfied. years down the road it is never as good as it first was, but it can still be pretty damn good.

My tolerance is fairly high, well compared to someone who has never been on opiates. I've been on 120mgs of OC for the last year with 15mg OxyIR for b/t through the day, and when my pain is over the top I double or even triple dose during the day. I learned that shooting them doesn't give good pain control, but it does provide INSTANT well-being. Anything to alter a state of being in pain. Last week I totally paniced, as several coworkers were out of the office so their workload fell on me, and being the perfectionist that I am, I was shooting one 40mg OC every hour of the work day just so I could keep up with everthing. Now that my Dr became privy to that, I'm back down to 3 per day, and my wife checks my arms each evening. I hate to say it, but I've found the vein just above the wrist (about 6 inches) is easy to hit and since I turn my arms over, so to speak, to show her the inside elbows, she doesn't see the area I've been shooting into. ugh...I hate to be like this, but I hate to live in pain more. Once I drop the plunger I just have such a relief from everything, short-lived as it may be.

Well, since my prescription will be coming from my PCP, I can spread it throughout the day in order to keep the edge off. Does anyone have a mg for mg conversion for OC to Methadone I could look at? I'm curious to see where my dosing should be, and use that to sort of get my mind around how I should take it. It sounds like I should be able to take other opies, as well, as I doubt he will start me out very high at first. We'll see. I am going to get my OC script refilled today (for another week), so at least I can enjoy the next week...

I was really bumbed out to make the switch at first, but it's starting to sound a little more positive. I like the rush I get from shooting OC's, but I don't mind not having it. If I can obtain good pain control, and still get the edge off, that will be just fine with me. It's like I feel as though I deserve it in some way, living in a constant state of pain as I do, although I know that's BS! My wife was freaked out at first when she looked at my arms, but after talking with my Doc she's also developed a sense of remorse for the crap I live through every day. It's like people are finally starting to get it. Don't judge me without first walking a mile in my shoes.

[OxyContinuously]

2HI2C

First, you are a lucky, lucky man!!! While i'm not a pain patient, myself, i sure know a lot of folks who are and they all pretty much said that if a scenario like yours happened, BAM!! dropped like a bad habit...your doc is cool as shit to let you stick around, IMO

And there's already been a lot of great advice given to ya about methadone by Paregoric, Duckfeet, and a couple others. I'll just add my 2 cents that from what I know, methadone is a pretty decent, long-acting halflife type of drug...should be good for pain, I would imagine...

Important though, like everyone was sayin' give the methadone a chance to work; like for examlpe it takes a bit to reach peak as opposed to oxy, or dilaudid or another shortie...sometimes people get impatient and re-dose too soon, and that proves to be bad, cause they OD'd...

but, you should be okay, pain-wise, which is the most important thing...


later

Oxy

[Duckfeet]

Yeah, I don't the exact words for it, but methadone helps me behave, if that makes any sense. And tho I don't get a rush, I agree w/what Paregoric and Oxy said. It's a good drug, and I like knowing I'm doing some kind of opiate every day. Once methadone gets in my system--about 40 minutes, for me, I start feeling better, my aches go away, and I don't crave other shit. It helps me function, and be the fulltime beachbum I'm cut out to be. Gives me time to go thru the posts on here, and most of all--and good, for me--it seems to get me away from the damned *needle* craving, which I'm always a little embarassed by, and subutex...well, hell, it got rid of withdrawal symptoms, but was flop in all the other areas...

And if I have oxys, it's like having dilaudids...I just can't make'em last, and eventually I fix'em. Until I get heroin maintenance or injectable methadone, in this country...methadone clinic is the best deal going. Eventually hopefully u'll see it as a plus. Biggest problem, to me: constipation, silly as that sounds, but it's serious, and I"ve been driven off it, for that stupid thing.

Best wishes to you, I think it'll prove to be a good thing for you, from what I"ve read...

[2HI2C]

2HI2C

First, you are a lucky, lucky man!!! While i'm not a pain patient, myself, i sure know a lot of folks who are and they all pretty much said that if a scenario like yours happened, BAM!! dropped like a bad habit...your doc is cool as shit to let you stick around, IMO

And there's already been a lot of great advice given to ya about methadone by Paregoric, Duckfeet, and a couple others. I'll just add my 2 cents that from what I know, methadone is a pretty decent, long-acting halflife type of drug...should be good for pain, I would imagine...

Important though, like everyone was sayin' give the methadone a chance to work; like for examlpe it takes a bit to reach peak as opposed to oxy, or dilaudid or another shortie...sometimes people get impatient and re-dose too soon, and that proves to be bad, cause they OD'd...

but, you should be okay, pain-wise, which is the most important thing...


later

Oxy

I completely understand that not only is he a VERY cool Doctor (which he really is, by the way!), but I am a VERY luck man. I know I could be out in the cold right now. He refilled my OC script for me today, again, only 1 week at a time, as we're working on moving over to Methadone. I have a follow up appt with him next Monday and think we'll probably do it then. He's enforced some pretty strict rules as well; only my wife can pick up the script from his office, and only she can pick up the script from the pharmacy. I can live by those rules.

I don't like getting wasted or anything, it's just a matter of getting as free from pain as I possibly can...aaaaaand then get a little satisfaction out of it at the same time. Some chronic pain people I know have been switched over to Suboxone, but from what I hear, Methadone is better for relieving pain, and not to mention it binds to the mu-receptors, which is a good thing! :) I don't want to go the route of Suboxone, first and foremost because I want better pain control.

[OxyContinuously]

I completely understand that not only is he a VERY cool Doctor (which he really is, by the way!), but I am a VERY luck man. I know I could be out in the cold right now. He refilled my OC script for me today, again, only 1 week at a time, as we're working on moving over to Methadone. I have a follow up appt with him next Monday and think we'll probably do it then. He's enforced some pretty strict rules as well; only my wife can pick up the script from his office, and only she can pick up the script from the pharmacy. I can live by those rules.

I don't like getting wasted or anything, it's just a matter of getting as free from pain as I possibly can...aaaaaand then get a little satisfaction out of it at the same time. Some chronic pain people I know have been switched over to Suboxone, but from what I hear, Methadone is better for relieving pain, and not to mention it binds to the mu-receptors, which is a good thing! :) I don't want to go the route of Suboxone, first and foremost because I want better pain control.


Really? Suboxone, that's interesting shit dude...I was under the impression that Suboxone was strictly a opiate management type of deal; i was unaware it was used for pain management....but u know what? buprenorphine has existed as "Buprenex" and "Temgesic" as pain medicine for a long time now, so that doesn't really surprise me....I've never tried Subs (I should get my ass to a doc, I know, LOL, Lord knows I could use it ;-) but they *are* an opiate so it would only be logical to think they would have *some* kind of pain relief...news to me..

anyway, take it easy, 2HI

later

peace

Oxy

[Paregoric Kid]

I don't think they meant suboxone, I think only buprenex or some other brand of buprenorphine is approved for pain, same thing though just without the naloxone. I wouldn't want to have to use it for pain, but that is just my opinion.

[insaneike]

I take 25mg of Methadone(for severe back pain and as a potentator for my other meds) in combo with 60-90mg of Roxicodone(IR Oxycodone) and ten, 2.5mg Fentanyl(Duragesic) patches(someone smokes em, cept for 1-2 he has to wear to doc appoint because the bitches check, rawwh!).
Someones best bud is Scripted Methadone 40mg wafers twice a day in combo with Dialudid(hydromorphone) 4-6x/day.
So not using in combo with other opioids is s tupid warning people have given out. Now your avg. joe taking 'done in combo with even just percs or OC is a dangerous combo if he just starts popping pills!!! Just don't be an idiot.

Now while on the subject 'done only blocks other opioids when at 80mg+ doses. I have taken 45mg countless times and then dosed with roxi, fent, pod tea, and even dope with no need for increased dosage due to 'done. Though I have read and ehard of people who get the blocking effects from low as 60mg, but nothing major or TOO bothersome should come into play until you're at a constant 80mg, but keep in mind every individual is different and everyone reacts differently to different drugs.

The Methadone with other opioids, well, this is where tolerance comes into play folks... if you have a small to no toler(20-25mg and less of am Instant Release form Oxycodone(or 40-60mg of MSIR/Morphine) gets you off) then it could be a very dangerous thing to mix a more instant rushy/shorter half life opioid with 'done. Such as Diamorphine(heroin), smoked Fentanyl(or Actiq(lolli pops), Fentora(sublingual tabs), or IV fent/ampules), Dialudid/Hydromorphone, Oxy/Roxicodone, Meper MSIR/Morphine, and most deff Opana/ER-Oxymorphone.

and i woke up from last night n never finished this post so gonna post it anyway even though I forgot what I was saying. I'll read the thread/my post again later and post again lol.

[2HI2C]

Thanks for all the GREAT info you guys!

My Doc wants the blessing of a psych doc b4 he prescribes Methadone, so I have an appt with one today. My wife is pretty much against moving over simply because it's trading one opie for another, and wants me to go cold turkey from all narcs. NOT GUNNA HAPPEN! I know I can't function w/o something for chronic pain. I know I can learn other techniques for tackling it, but I do need some type of base med.

I don't worry about my tolerance as I've been on as much as 200mcgs of Fentanyl every 72hrs with 30mg Roxi's as b/t. So I've gone up and down over the years with my use of medication. Again, I'm not looking to get wasted.

Like I said, I LOVE the rush of shooting OC and the well-being it provides for a couple of hours afterwards, but if Methadone provides that "well-being" feeling, then I'm sure I will be satisfied. I do want to set a ceiling dose that will allow me to take other meds and benefit from doing so.

[NV12]

You are very lucky indeed. From your wife's perspective, it's a hard thing to understand. While my hubby has never reached the point of shooting, it's difficult to understand the daily need for opiates. Hubby just went from Methadone to Subutex and it has helped him tremendously. I guess it affects different people... he was terrible to be around when on the methadone.

Anyway, best of luck to you. Encourage your wife to research and learn more about opiates and long term pain management. Honestly if I hadn't found this website and learned so much from people with the same issues, I would never have been as supportive to my husband.

Good luck...

[2HI2C]

you can get really high on methadone if you use it right and you can also mix meds with it up to a certain point. to me methadone is synthetic morphine that lasts a lot longer (they are equipotent when IV'd, except for the half life differences). it is pretty pointless to IV methadone because it has such a good oral bioavailability whereas morphine has a horrible oral bioavailability. when you get up to about 80-100mg then you might start to experience the blocking effect from receptor saturation (ie the methadone fills up all your receptors). there are two solutions to this if you want to mix methadone with other stuff: 1) lower your methadone dose to 75mg or less or 2) use a stronger drug on top of your methadone dose, one with a higher binding affinity than methadone, like fentanyl for example, these will break through.

Hey, PK

I was reading over the earlier posts in this thread again and was wondering... Everyone mentioned that Methadone definitely gives a buzz, just not the rush. If you IV it, will it deliver the same rush as IV'ing say...OxyContin???? I like the fact that the bioavailability is very good, so simply taking it orally will deliver, but I'm wondering if I could shoot it to get that WHAM-O well-being feeling? ...or based on your experience, should a person just stick with taking it orally?

And in regards to the half-life differences, 'done's is much longer than Morphine, correct? (or even OC for that matter) Like I've said, I shoot my OC's right now as I just love the instant gratification, however, it seems to wear off relatively fast. I would think Methadone would last much longer, and if it delivers a similar rush as OC when IV'ing, THAT would be super!

Also, in terms of mg conversion, I found a site that suggests if a person's Oxycodone intake is approx 130mg's per day, they should be started out on 5mg's of Methadone, and titrated up from there until they reach a level of pain relief that's acceptable. When I hear Duckfeet (just an example) say he's on 100mg's of Methadone a day, that seems like a LOT, if a Doc is supposed to start a patient out on only 5mgs a day. (I'm sure there will be some fine tuning over the first week or so, but I just want to make sure I start out with a dose that's relatively close to what I need from the beginning). Does anyone have a feel for this? If I'm taking it for pain, what's a "typical" dosage? (I understand we're all different, but there's got to be a difference in dosing when it comes to getting off Heroin, or using it for pain relief)

Thanks!

[2HI2C]

I take 25mg of Methadone(for severe back pain and as a potentator for my other meds) in combo with 60-90mg of Roxicodone(IR Oxycodone) and ten, 2.5mg Fentanyl(Duragesic) patches(someone smokes em, cept for 1-2 he has to wear to doc appoint because the bitches check, rawwh!).
Someones best bud is Scripted Methadone 40mg wafers twice a day in combo with Dialudid(hydromorphone) 4-6x/day.
So not using in combo with other opioids is s tupid warning people have given out. Now your avg. joe taking 'done in combo with even just percs or OC is a dangerous combo if he just starts popping pills!!! Just don't be an idiot.

Now while on the subject 'done only blocks other opioids when at 80mg+ doses. I have taken 45mg countless times and then dosed with roxi, fent, pod tea, and even dope with no need for increased dosage due to 'done. Though I have read and ehard of people who get the blocking effects from low as 60mg, but nothing major or TOO bothersome should come into play until you're at a constant 80mg, but keep in mind every individual is different and everyone reacts differently to different drugs.

The Methadone with other opioids, well, this is where tolerance comes into play folks... if you have a small to no toler(20-25mg and less of am Instant Release form Oxycodone(or 40-60mg of MSIR/Morphine) gets you off) then it could be a very dangerous thing to mix a more instant rushy/shorter half life opioid with 'done. Such as Diamorphine(heroin), smoked Fentanyl(or Actiq(lolli pops), Fentora(sublingual tabs), or IV fent/ampules), Dialudid/Hydromorphone, Oxy/Roxicodone, Meper MSIR/Morphine, and most deff Opana/ER-Oxymorphone.

and i woke up from last night n never finished this post so gonna post it anyway even though I forgot what I was saying. I'll read the thread/my post again later and post again lol.

Sorry, Ike! I don't know how I missed your post, as it pretty much answered my question regarding a typical dose for pain relief! I guess if I end up anywhere up to, say 40mg's then, that ought to do me some good. At 25mg's do you find it helps quite a bit? (does a doc prescribe it or do you get it yourself? The reason I ask is just because I want to get a feel for what doc's prescribe for pain, that's all...) I'm obviously concerned that he not throw me into w/d's by underprescribing, too! That's actually a very BIG concern for me, right now. And knowing he's a little pissed off at me for shooting my meds, I can see him taking out a little frustration on me by doing that...

Another question...the Methadone a person gets at the clinics is a wafer that dissolves in liquid. Is it the same way with the version that's prescribed by doctors? (I think it was Duckfeet that mentioned that..."the kind give by docs is the white pills..." or something like that. Are they always dissolved in liquid? Aaaaand, let's just say a person wants to shoot 'em, would they prepare them the same way you would OC?

Thanks...sorry for all the questions you guys! This is new territory for me, and I hate going into a situation where I have no knowledge to help guide me through it. At least I will know if he says, "okay lets start you out on 10mgs a day and see how you do..." That he's starting in the right direction. If I can SHOOT those (prepared in a similar fashion as OC's), then I'd be all the happier...(okay, like Shelley, I've become a needle freak! :confused:)...but I don't want to end up dead! Right now my daily oxy intake is 180mgs (base + b/t)

[jayemp420]

i just came offmethadone 105mg/day after 10 months....the first week or so itll get you hgih if you dotn have a tolerance. and dont believe when they say methadone dont get you high, methadone can get you LOAAAAAADED, methadone is a FULL opioid agonist - on par with heroin. its just got a LOT longer half life and it builds up in your system, which means you build up tolerance to its effects extremely quickly and you dont always get the high and low peak serum levels of drug in your system so you dont get high after about 2 weeks on it because your blood level stays the same constnatly, which is also why if your on about 80mg+/day methadone for atleast 2 weeks, you can inject a gram of dope and not feel anything, and also if your taking it for pain relief, i would NOT recommend methadone, methadone is really only good for maintenance, methadones pain relieving/sedating/euphoric/respirtaory depression effect wears off after about 2 weeks as tolerance builds up, but the thing with methadone is tolerance builds up to THOSE effects, but tolerance does NOT build up to the constipation, so after 2 weeks, youll have no pain relief, youll be extremely physically dependnant on methadone that doeesnt even help you, and youll have shat so hard youll bleed and cry when you try to shat......so my advice to you is tell your doctor hes a quack who dont know what the FUCK hes talking about.....and believe me i know what imt alking about, i have alot of book smarts plus alot of street smarts plus ive been through everything myself and my whole family and all my friends have also. dont believe doctors who have never touched methadone in there life, they have NO IDEA (let me repharse, ALOT of doctors have no idea, and apparently your doctor is one of them) what its like and whats its effects/side effects are.
and im not tryin to be stern but you can take my word for it or your doctors word. but just one more word of advice, methadone is just as physically dependant as oxycontin and teh wtihdrawal from methadone is even worse, instead of taking 5-14 days it takes 14-30 days

[Duckfeet]

I don't recommend it, Jay, and with some reservations--mostly in outlook--I agree with your post. But for some of us, methadone maintenance is really the only real option. If I had the possibility of being on heroin maintenance, I'd at least try that. If I was still happy sober, I wouldn't be here. But the trouble is, sober life had become unbearable and boring to me. And the street junky life was no longer sustainable, and also I hate tar, which is the only form of street heroin I ever bump into out here. And I couldn't get hold of a doc that perscribed me enough dilaudids or morphine to satisfy my craving. Burprenorphine doesn't get rid of the cravings, for me, tho twice I gave subs a good try.

So watcha gonna do? I am glad you managed to taper off of methadone, and are trying something new. I always support people trying to get off the shit, and know just what a bear methadone can be, both the physical side effects *and* the detox... I'm at 100mg daily.

So I also try to be supportive and kindly to those who, like me, find no other outlet than the dreaded 'done, and do try to see the positive attributes of methadone maintenance, and I myself am glad it's available...tho the obnoxious libertarian in me will always see it as "second best."

Best wishes.

[Markov]

This is a very interesting and well-timed thread for me. My PM doc just switched me from opana to methadone. Ill-advised, I think, but apparently he thinks I get a buzz off the opana (well, yeah...) and wanted to put me on something with pain control properties, but no buzz. Hmmm. The main problem I see is that I went from 40mg of opana per day, 'till I moved, got this new doc, went down to 30, then 20, then he wanted to do the opana extended release but my ins. wouldn't pay for it... now it's methadone 5mg 3x a day. If it's comparable to oxycodone mg for mg.... that's a dosage that's going to be less effective than tylenol for me. But, if he's already suspicious of me as a buzz-seeking patient, I think asking for a dose increase would be a baaad idea. I admit, I am an opana-o-phile.

When he asked me what my resistance to methadone was, I said it was such a strong mu-agonist and was difficult to taper off of, he laughed and said opana/oxymorphone was a stronger mu-agonist. Doh! Shot down. 'course he also wants to do some crazy spine injection/procedure on me (no, not just a regular ol' steroid injection, much weirder), so I'm thinking I might just switch docs to someone whose therapeutic paradigm is closer to mine.

Anyway, if there's a message in this rambling post somewhere (I'm a little loooopy 'cause I'm not quite out of opana yet :) ) it's that having a significant tolerance (chew 120mg of oxycontin for a nice buzz) switching to 5mg of methadone is not an effective pain regimen, and I don't know how to approach the next step. I can't go with the simple-mind, "Whatever you say doc, it's just not working" approach since he already knows I do extensive Medline research on anything he says, and ask questions about everything. Makes me want to just throw up my hands and give up on doctors. If I did that I'd just be left wanting to throw up though.

[Narkotikon]

Sorry to hear that the party's ended. If you're on done, be prepared to binge on chocolate and ice cream.

[Markov]

Funny you mention that. I actually just ate three ice cream sandwiches. No joke. Coincidence? [key x-files theme music]

[Narkotikon]

:-) I hate methadone for that reason. It's just too sedating, and not in the "catch-a-nod" good way, plus the binge eating makes me a lard-ass.

[Duckfeet]

I think yer problem is a common one, and one of the reasons at the methadone clinic we see more and more pain patients that have claimed they were addicts just so they could get enough methadone. It's a fucked up and worsening medical situation where docs are *so* worried about u becoming an addict, and think it is there mission on earth to keep u on low doses of narcotics...anyway, best wishes to you. It sounds like a crummy situation. I'd probably do what u r thinking of doing, which is look for a better pm doc... Best wishes....


This is a very interesting and well-timed thread for me. My PM doc just switched me from opana to methadone. Ill-advised, I think, but apparently he thinks I get a buzz off the opana (well, yeah...) and wanted to put me on something with pain control properties, but no buzz. Hmmm. The main problem I see is that I went from 40mg of opana per day, 'till I moved, got this new doc, went down to 30, then 20, then he wanted to do the opana extended release but my ins. wouldn't pay for it... now it's methadone 5mg 3x a day. If it's comparable to oxycodone mg for mg.... that's a dosage that's going to be less effective than tylenol for me. But, if he's already suspicious of me as a buzz-seeking patient, I think asking for a dose increase would be a baaad idea. I admit, I am an opana-o-phile.

When he asked me what my resistance to methadone was, I said it was such a strong mu-agonist and was difficult to taper off of, he laughed and said opana/oxymorphone was a stronger mu-agonist. Doh! Shot down. 'course he also wants to do some crazy spine injection/procedure on me (no, not just a regular ol' steroid injection, much weirder), so I'm thinking I might just switch docs to someone whose therapeutic paradigm is closer to mine.

Anyway, if there's a message in this rambling post somewhere (I'm a little loooopy 'cause I'm not quite out of opana yet :) ) it's that having a significant tolerance (chew 120mg of oxycontin for a nice buzz) switching to 5mg of methadone is not an effective pain regimen, and I don't know how to approach the next step. I can't go with the simple-mind, "Whatever you say doc, it's just not working" approach since he already knows I do extensive Medline research on anything he says, and ask questions about everything. Makes me want to just throw up my hands and give up on doctors. If I did that I'd just be left wanting to throw up though.

[Paregoric Kid]

I don't know about the feeling of IV methadone, never got to try any amps, but I've heard it is rather pointless to bang methadone pills and that it decreases the duration of methadone.
I wouldn't say methadone isn't good for pain after 2 weeks being on it constantly, I know people who have used it for decades for pain. you wanna say it doesn't do shit for pain? last year I broke both of my wrists on methadone and didn't realize it till after my dose wore off. also I take it for my back pain and I know a bunch of people that take it for their (serious) back problems and one who takes it for fibromyalgia and diabetic neuropathy.

[Duckfeet]

I definitily think it works for pain. If I stay on methadone, I'll probably switch clinics to a clinic that gives out takehome *split* doses, as doing it twice a day seems better for pain. And I fixed those little pills a couple times, but no rush or anything, which for me is good, as if I ever get'em thru pm I don't want to be tempted...because if something is fixable I'll usually fix it... :-(


I don't know about the feeling of IV methadone, never got to try any amps, but I've heard it is rather pointless to bang methadone pills and that it decreases the duration of methadone.
I wouldn't say methadone isn't good for pain after 2 weeks being on it constantly, I know people who have used it for decades for pain. you wanna say it doesn't do shit for pain? last year I broke both of my wrists on methadone and didn't realize it till after my dose wore off. also I take it for my back pain and I know a bunch of people that take it for their (serious) back problems and one who takes it for fibromyalgia and diabetic neuropathy.

[roxi*stardust]

I completely understand that not only is he a VERY cool Doctor (which he really is, by the way!), but I am a VERY luck man. I know I could be out in the cold right now. He refilled my OC script for me today, again, only 1 week at a time, as we're working on moving over to Methadone. I have a follow up appt with him next Monday and think we'll probably do it then. He's enforced some pretty strict rules as well; only my wife can pick up the script from his office, and only she can pick up the script from the pharmacy. I can live by those rules.

I don't like getting wasted or anything, it's just a matter of getting as free from pain as I possibly can...aaaaaand then get a little satisfaction out of it at the same time. Some chronic pain people I know have been switched over to Suboxone, but from what I hear, Methadone is better for relieving pain, and not to mention it binds to the mu-receptors, which is a good thing! :) I don't want to go the route of Suboxone, first and foremost because I want better pain control.
I, as a chronic pain patient who always runs out of meds early, can atest to the fact the Suboxone does NOT do jack shit for pain. I recently tried a few small doses of 'done when I ran out of my pain RX instead of the Subs and it works GREAT for pain and lasts a good long time. I do not get an oxy buzz from it but it does have it's own type of buzz, more like a morphine buzz. I take Roxicodone 15mg 4X a day, when I was out I would take 2-4mg a Subs to keep w/ds at bay or 10-15-20mg of 'done. The 'done not only kept w/ds at bay but also helped a ton with my pain, actually worked better than the oxy. If it's pain relief you seek, methadone is fabulous, if it's an oxy type buzz, you will be very disappointed.

[2HI2C]

I, as a chronic pain patient who always runs out of meds early, can atest to the fact the Suboxone does NOT do jack shit for pain. I recently tried a few small doses of 'done when I ran out of my pain RX instead of the Subs and it works GREAT for pain and lasts a good long time. I do not get an oxy buzz from it but it does have it's own type of buzz, more like a morphine buzz. I take Roxicodone 15mg 4X a day, when I was out I would take 2-4mg a Subs to keep w/ds at bay or 10-15-20mg of 'done. The 'done not only kept w/ds at bay but also helped a ton with my pain, actually worked better than the oxy. If it's pain relief you seek, methadone is fabulous, if it's an oxy type buzz, you will be very disappointed.

I'm really after pain relief, however, if there's a buzz that comes along with that, then GREAT! I'm sure I will be satisfied with the affects of Methadone. (the doc that did the 1st meeting for the intensive pain program, suggested Suboxone, but I've spoken to a NUMBER of people who have been switched over and they all say the same thing. STAY AWAY FROM IT FOR CHRONIC PAIN! So thanks for your input!)

I know 'done does work well for pain, as all the pain management docs/clinics I've been to over the years have ALWAYS thrown it out there as a viable option. There are millions of people on it for chronic pain, and it has proven effective over and over again. Besides, the dose will be low enough to allow me to use an occasional OC w/o the blocking affect, perhaps it will be the best of both worlds for me. I know my insurance company will be happy, since it's so darn inexpensive!

I'm a little nervous to see my doctor tomorrow, as it's the first face-to-face since he found out I was shooting my meds. :o I am so frustrated to live with pain every day that I almost want to just give up. He asked me at my last appointment, "what is it YOU want?" I just laughed and said, "nobody wants to hear what I REALLY want! I want an unlimited supply of OC, and the freedom to administer them to myself any way I see fit..." He just chuckled and said, "well, besides that!" I wish there were a Pain-O-Meter they could hook up to a person in order to show how much pain they live with. I think my doc and my wife would shit their pants if they really knew what I go through every day. It's driven me to do things I never thought I would do, over and over.

Knowing I can benefit from the pain relieving qualities of Methadone, and enjoy an occasional shot, is really something I look forward to. Since I don't have a h addiction, it sounds like upto 25mgs would be sufficient dosing for me. My fear is that he will undertreat my pain and it will just cause me to go off the deep end. I've lived through w/d's more times than I can count, so I'm not TOO worried about that, although they do suck. Going cold turkey from 200mcgs of Fentanyl was a REAL challange for me, but I did it. I just dispise hurting...

[Duckfeet]

My trouble with the short acting opys is that I always want more...it doesnt matter what my intentions or plans are...I'll alway up the dose. I had a doc who actually had some sympathy for me start prescribing me 4 dilaudids a day, and I'd always swore if I could just get *two* of them fuckers daily, I"d be happy...but that rush, wasn't long before I started cheating...oxycontin, same thing...that's why methadone to me, even though I don't like it all that much, is just about perfect, because it seems to take a while to come on, and stays in system long enough, that once I get to right dose, I'm o.k. So far, no other drug does that. Heroin was o.k. if I had enough...but I always started jacking that up too, now I remember, the few times I've had plenty....I did plenty...I have no sense of restraint, I'm afraid...

[roxi*stardust]

I'm really after pain relief, however, if there's a buzz that comes along with that, then GREAT! I'm sure I will be satisfied with the affects of Methadone. (the doc that did the 1st meeting for the intensive pain program, suggested Suboxone, but I've spoken to a NUMBER of people who have been switched over and they all say the same thing. STAY AWAY FROM IT FOR CHRONIC PAIN! So thanks for your input!)

I know 'done does work well for pain, as all the pain management docs/clinics I've been to over the years have ALWAYS thrown it out there as a viable option. There are millions of people on it for chronic pain, and it has proven effective over and over again. Besides, the dose will be low enough to allow me to use an occasional OC w/o the blocking affect, perhaps it will be the best of both worlds for me. I know my insurance company will be happy, since it's so darn inexpensive!

I'm a little nervous to see my doctor tomorrow, as it's the first face-to-face since he found out I was shooting my meds. :o I am so frustrated to live with pain every day that I almost want to just give up. He asked me at my last appointment, "what is it YOU want?" I just laughed and said, "nobody wants to hear what I REALLY want! I want an unlimited supply of OC, and the freedom to administer them to myself any way I see fit..." He just chuckled and said, "well, besides that!" I wish there were a Pain-O-Meter they could hook up to a person in order to show how much pain they live with. I think my doc and my wife would shit their pants if they really knew what I go through every day. It's driven me to do things I never thought I would do, over and over.

Knowing I can benefit from the pain relieving qualities of Methadone, and enjoy an occasional shot, is really something I look forward to. Since I don't have a h addiction, it sounds like upto 25mgs would be sufficient dosing for me. My fear is that he will undertreat my pain and it will just cause me to go off the deep end. I've lived through w/d's more times than I can count, so I'm not TOO worried about that, although they do suck. Going cold turkey from 200mcgs of Fentanyl was a REAL challange for me, but I did it. I just dispise hurting...
I can't believe that a PM doc would even suggest Subs for pain, first they are only FDA approved for the treatment of opiate addiction, secondly even though they are long lasting they do not help very much if at all for severe pain, thirdly the have a ceiling effect so after about 32mg they don't do anything else; which in itself makes it pretty useless for people requiring higher doses, and last but not least is the fact that it binds so tightly to your receptors that it is almost impossible to reverse even with Narcan; making it a dangerous substitute for more conventional pain meds.

[Paregoric Kid]

buprenorphine was approved for pain WAY before it was approved for addiction treatment. it is just not very good at it. ever hear of buprenex? maybe the doc did say subs but I'm sure he meant one of the forms of bupe approved for pain

[Duckfeet]

Yeah, with subs--like so much stuff we deal with--there is just so much conflicting info... I read enough posts on another forum from people with personal experience with subs, and there were two things that I believe.

1) That whether or not they are prescribed for pain, they don't work, on pain, for me....and the kid's got it right, they damn sure bind to receptors and nothing else gets thru...that's my experience, also....

2) Doses over 16mg daily, after long periods, just seems like subs got weird shit happening. Maybe the chemists on here understand it better, but some of these guys had really credible stores of weird and warped shit starting to happen after lengthy--over six months--periods on 16mg or more of subs, that you start to get sick, but more subs make it *worse* not better...so yer kind of fucked, since nothing else works either...a bit spooky, actually...

My main take is that there is not enough convincing evidence either way, and that I need to be careful using subs for anything other than short term, usually detox. Methadone--which I"m on--also has a lot of bullshit, and confilicting "evidence and statisics haha" but methadone is "the devil I know," and does get rid of pain, and "I think" that it will work good on *split* doses, which some clinics make available, and I'm shooting for.

Those of us with pain *and* hardcore addict problems...well, u almost just gotta go with yer gut, as, again, there is just a lot of confliciting info on any opiate that is legally available to me...